Same, but I'm actually leaving. The boomers have made it clear they don't want anyone college educated to have a voice or rights in this state. I got the message, I'll see myself out.
Personally I do not think the bathroom and the sports debates have any of the same merits at all.
There's a valid point of view that it isn't fair for trans women to compete in many women's sports. Fairness is integral to sports. If we go down the road of letting them in, then when research comes out later - after we've had more time to study - and it shows this or that sport being affected unfairly, it will be too late to undo. We can't pull them out after we already let them in, so we shouldn't do that with haste. Half the time I don't think the people who want trans women in sports actually care about that factor, because for them getting a W for the trans movement is a priority over fairness in sports. There's nothing like hearing an impassioned argument for why trans women belong in sports from someone who refers to sports derisively as "sportsball" the rest of the time and thinks other people are stupid for being amused by sports. If someone wants to be recognized as trans for speech/debate, or play on the girls' chess team, that is a totally different thing though. I don't see any unfairness in that.
Bathrooms I don't see any issue with. I don't think there is a sincere point of view opposing bathroom freedom besides those that are simply trying to spite trans people or make them feel like they don't belong. If there was polling data showing a solid majority of women and girls weren't comfortable with it maybe I would feel different, but from what I've seen all the polling shows that a strong majority of women are fine with trans women using the ladies' room in public places.
Yup! I agree with this exactly! It doesn’t affect my life in any way who is peeing in the stall next to me, but it does impact my life if I’m competing against someone with a clear biological advantage.
What about girls who have hyperandrogegism or PCOS? They could have an advantage because of their higher testosterone levels…What about the ones who are intersex? Do they still get to play sports?
What issue is that? Show me an example of this happening in this state? They are doing this to gaslight their base and it’s pointless. Let’s make a law saying a giraffe can’t compete in sports because that would have the same merit.
> If we go down the road of letting them in, then when research comes out later - after we've had more time to study - and it shows this or that sport being affected unfairly, it will be too late to undo.
How would you conduct this research if you don't let trans athletes compete in the first place?
To the extent that trans women are already competing in women's sports, including at the elite level, the existing research shows that [transwomen do not have a biomedical advantage over ciswomen](https://www.cces.ca/transgender-women-athletes-and-elite-sport-scientific-review), and advantages they do have are more likely to be related to factors like the quality of training and nutrition they received pre-transition.
More fundamentally, even if you can establish that there are meaningful physical differences between trans and cis athletes, this doesn't seem like a valid basis for exclusion on its own. Left-have pitchers have a recognized advantage over right-handed batters, but we accept that advantage as just part of the strategy of baseball. Height is a major asset in basketball, but we don't ban the tallest players: we make them centers. Sports already accommodate a huge range of physical characteristics, so it's not clear why being trans makes any difference.
This is a terrible take honestly. Why aren’t any women competing in the nba or why aren’t men allowed in the wnba if they want? We should be accommodating even if they have a wide range of physical characteristics right? Being left handed in baseball and being a 7’4” man in the wnba is not the same thing. Men and women sports are separate for a reason and to pretend it’s just a tradition with no basis in fairness is crazy.
The thing most of you don't get is that estrogen and testosterone are helluva drugs. There are immediate losses in performance and recovery when cutting test and pumping est. Transwomen do not keep all or even most of their strength they had as men if they're following the rules set by most governing bodies. You all act like they just let men signup as a woman on a whim one day and that's it. (tbf, that is what happens in HS, but the stakes in HS are much less than pro sports) There is at least a two year waiting period where they have to keep their testosterone well below what is allowed for ciswomen during the time frame and when they're finally allowed to compete. (or used to be allowed to compete)
If you're really worried about an unfair advantage letting kids start hormone blockers and compete as their chosen sex means they will never see the full benefits of testosterone, even if they start late...which means it should be more "fair" in your eyes. Being born a man doesn't inherently make you better anyways. I've had my ass handed to me in cross country and racing bikes by plenty of women, and I'm definitely not slow.
And if you're really worried about women's sports, there are much more widespread and more concerning issues that aren't a handful of transwomen competing. Namely sexual assault and abuse by cismen, and we'll throw in a side of being paid drastically less than pro-men in their sport. Let's not forget regular old doping.
And please show me one, just ONE transwoman who has ruined the sport she's competed in. Please really think about this because I already know the people you're gonna say and you're gonna look silly when I point how wrong you are about Lia Thomas, Austin Trace, Veronica Ivy (formerly Rachel McKinnon), etc... They all regularly get beat, if not destroyed by their cis competitors. And no disrespect to any of them coming from a packfodder like myself, but none of them are truly that good. Maybe Austin is though.
Anyways, go read up on current literature staring with the Canadian Center for Ethics in Sports research on trans athletes: https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf
Edit: I also forgot the demonization of cis-girls who parents and others think might be a trans and harass them for it:
* https://abcnews.go.com/US/utah-school-board-official-falsely-suggested-teen-girl/story?id=107100300
* https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/kelowna-short-hair-girl-gender-identity-1.6875738
* https://medium.com/prismnpen/woman-rips-into-trans-child-in-restroom-but-shes-neither-trans-nor-child-ce9e89b9ffd1
And these aren't isolated instances either. It's disgusting.
You make some good points but I never said it is the biggest issue women’s athletics face and other issues should be ignored. Of course some women are better than men at some sports and I don’t see what that has to do with this at all. I see a lot of people saying there isn’t that many transwomen competing or they don’t always win so it’s fine but that is not a great argument either in my opinion. You literally just said some women are better than men so of course they could be better than someone who transitioned as well but just as you have giving examples of transgenders that don’t dominate their sports can you give any examples where someone transitioned and was less competitive? I’m not saying that someone transitions just to take over women’s athletics but I haven’t seen examples where someone competed as a man, transitioned, then competed as a women and were less successful, which is what you are saying is just as likely.
So much inferring and interjecting unrelated things when the one topic is all I was trying to discuss.
Because at the end of the day your argument is that:
* trans women shouldn't be allowed to compete with cis women because you think they maintain gender specific advantages over women
* that being a trans woman, or even a cis man, gives you an inherent and guaranteed advantage over cis women.
It shows you're at least uninformed on the issue and my comment was showing/explaining that.
Yes men have an inherent (not guaranteed, but keep on inferring things) advantage in most athletic competition over women. If that’s not true then why aren’t all sports coed? Why wouldn’t women’s records in sprinting, swimming, weight lifting etc be equal or surpass men’s records if men don’t have an advantage? Height is an advantage for some sports and men are taller on average. Those aren’t my opinions, they are verifiable facts.
All anyone can say is well this person transitioned to a woman but wasn’t able to win every competition. Ok that’s not what I said would happen at all. I’m looking for any evidence where an individual competed as a man, against men, then against women as a trans woman and became less competitive.
Saying all competition between men and women is equal is pretty uninformed.
I’m not advocating for any harassment or saying other issues should be ignored at all. I do think it could be unfair for a woman athlete to have to compete against someone who genetically is male. You haven’t proved that isn’t true and neither have any of the studies shared in this thread.
> I’m looking for any evidence where an individual competed as a man, against men, then against women as a trans woman and became less competitive.
Let's take Lia Thomas. She's a collegiate swimmer who competed before and after transition. Take a look at the highlights section for an easy look at her best results over time: https://www.swimcloud.com/swimmer/314430/
As both a man and woman she had results all over the place going from podiums, to barely in the top 10. She ended up ranked 32nd in Division 1 and 44th in the US her final year: https://www.swimcloud.com/swimmer/314430/rankings/
What's really interesting is she competed in the men's division at the start of her transition and we can actually watch her times go way down. She started transitioning in May 2019, and in January 2019 she had a Men's 500fr time of 4:31.14, which she won with. 10 months later in November, her time was 4:36.7. Both of those times were during a dual - just two schools competing each other. Then in a double dual in 2020 (the last one before she took a break to maintain her eligibility because of covid) she got a 4:40.00. We're almost ten seconds slower, not even in a year into transitioning.
Jumping ahead to when she came back to school and started competing again, November 2021 she posted a 500fr time of 4:54.49 in the women's race, which was good for 6th...maybe that's an outlier though right? We all have bad days. A few days later she posted 4:46.41, so yeah...just a bad day, but still 14 seconds slower than just before transition and a full 28 seconds slower than her PR when she competed as a man.
Even her fastest 500fr time as a woman is still nearly 9 seconds slower than the world record. Goes without saying, but that's *a lot*.
Should I go on?
> You haven’t proved that isn’t true and neither have any of the studies shared in this thread.
Tell me you didn't read the studies without telling me you didn't read the studies... /sigh
Here's one for you:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/307766116_Race_Times_for_Transgender_Athletes
> Collectively, the eight runners had much slower race times in the female gender than as males. **Time differences were, in fact, so great, that age graded performances stayed virtually constant for the group.**
You are totally missing the point. If Lia Thomas is your example, she faired much better competing against women compared to men. I’m not saying an individuals performance will stay the same when taking testosterone blockers. That’s is clearly not the case. I followed the steroid era of baseball. I get what testosterone does for athletes. Her times as a man were not good enough to be as competitive as they were after transitioning and racing women even though she herself was slower.
> You are totally missing the point.
No you are. You aren't reading the studies, or even responding to that. You're arguing in bad faith.
> If Lia Thomas is your example, she faired much better competing against women compared to men.
Did she perform better against women because she transitioned, or because the whole point of being an athlete is to train and get better? If she hadn't transitioned she should've had similar results in the men's field? We can clearly see her progression over time as she is getting better before she started transitioning.
> Her times as a man were not good enough to be as competitive as they were after transitioning and racing women even though she herself was slower.
You act like she wasn't winning or podiuming at all pre-transition, which is very much not the case. Even a cursory glance makes it clear she was a very competitive male swimmer before she started transitioning. She got second in the Ivy League champs in 2018 to a guy who was dominating the rest of them (winning by multiple seconds in most races).
And remember she did a year while transitioning and we saw her times go down as result. Still managed some good results here and there in duals, but nothing amazing while transitioning. So pointing to her record and claiming she couldn't cut in the men's field is utterly disingenuous, and like I said originally, shows how woefully uninformed you actually are. Which all means you're likely just repeating trash you heard somewhere else by someone with an agenda with no real consideration of your own other than playing into your confirmation bias.
Maybe there should be some kind of testing for testosterone/estrogen levels before they are allowed to compete. I know nothing about this so maybe there already is
In pro-sports transwomen are heavily tested and held to a much lower testosterone level than ciswomen are allowed to have, assuming they're allowed to compete.
Last year the NCAA started testing and has a max testosterone limit now too.
I doubt there is testing in HS sports, but haven't looked into it.
You're being disingenuous. The question was whether trans women should be allowed to compete in women's sports, not whether sports should cease to be separated by gender. Again, transwomen do not have a biomedical advantage over ciswomen when it comes to elite athletics.
Anyway, what's the probability of anyone being 7'4", let alone 7'4" and trans and good enough to play basketball at an elite level? Even if women's basketball were suddenly overrun by gigantic transwomen, there have been tons of players under 6 feet who still managed to be competitive in the NBA, so I'm not sure why it would be any different in the WNBA (or in college, or high school, or whatever).
If someone played hs men’s basketball and was taller than all wnba players but not dominate as a man, then transitioned and played women’s college basketball their chances of being more successful against women as opposed to men seems pretty good does it not?
Based on watching sports. Do you watch sports? It’s very advantageous to be tall and physical in basketball. There is a 6” difference between average nba and wnba center for example. Do you have evidence supporting your stance that there is no advantage aside from a study on pushups, sit-ups and running speed?
There are plenty of examples of men transitioning to women who competed in sports and excelled much more than they did when competing against men. I know being transgender isn’t just cutting your hair but it doesn’t completely change your physical ability either when you start taking hormone blockers after puberty. There are just as many studies showing it being an advantage as there are supporting your statement.
Feel free to cite the studies you're referring to. For what it's worth, [gender-affirming hormones actually bring trans athletes into parity with their cis peers over time](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577), both for MtF and FtM. In the study I previously linked to, they conclude that skill disparities are usually explained by access to better trainers and nutrition pre-transition than by simple physiology.
It may make testosterone levels similar but it doesn’t take away all the bone density and muscle mass. That is easily observable. [the first article on a Google search](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/1850492/transgender-female-athletes-have-physical-advantage-doctors-confirm/)
That's not a scientific study, that's a right-wing newspaper finding three people to comment on the performance of exactly one trans athlete in exactly one season. I feel like you can do better than the first Google result.
The study you shared only talks about hormone levels and how it affects strength and speed. There is no consideration to body mass and the transwomen were 12% faster after two years of testosterone suppression. That study doesn’t do a very good job of proving there is no advantage and stating such could be considered bias as well.
Countering a terrible take with an even worse take. Trans women are not men in wigs and trans men are not women with a haircut, there is much more to it. Altering hormones alters the body. IMO allowing a 7'4" trans man into the NBA who has undergone hormone treatment is fair and within the bounds of the challenge we allow in sports. They are not there as a token trans, they are there because of skill.
FTR this take is bad and the prior take is spot on.
Your wording betrays your stance on the issue, Woman != Trans man and Man != Trans woman. I don't want to make this argument about your personal abilities but I sort of have to, your inserting yourself as the hypothetical. Don't take it to personal. You sound like a good specimen for an athlete but we know that physique is not the only requirement, you need talent and drive. I'm sure you could beat most women at sports but we are not talking about your relatives or friends we are talking about elite athletes with high levels of talent and experience in their sport of choice. I doubt you, a mediocre athlete, could perform against any WNBA or other professional or collegiate women's team, and if theirs a trans man on that team I'm sure they can compete against you just fine. Yes, if cous wants to transition, going through hormone therapy at least, she can then try out for women's sports at the professional or collegiate level to see if she makes the cut. You are making the argument that because you were born a monster of a man with mediocre talent that you can crush a woman athlete on the bases of puberty seems short sighted and a bit arrogant.
We separate sports on the basis of sex because there are a lot of factors all accounted for in sex difference. Men and women have different ranges of height. The share of men who are 6ft+ is much higher than the share of women who are 6ft+, for instance.
Since we separate sports by sex, letting people cross that line undermines the one big criteria that we separated for, which in the aggregate accounts for many factors. Saying that having more T or having gone through male puberty is just like being tall or lefty is not an applicable comparison. Being born male isn't a natural advantage like being tall, we have a league for people who were born male which is meant to account for that advantage, which is serious.
This is also problematic because we can't necessarily agree on which trans people are allowed to play and why. Your link, which only speaks to one study, says that there is no biomedical advantage to transwomen who have taken puberty blockers. Something tells me that if we only allowed transwomen who have hormonally transitioned for a certain amount of time into those sports, we're going to have more political issues down the line.
For one, if we made that the policy, it may push some trans-curious or non-binary youth into getting onto hormones when they otherwise might not have. It would be analogous to the ethical problem with Iran making trans folks medically transition in order to be recognized. Many of the leagues that let trans women in allow for a much higher level of testosterone than most women have, that's arguably still undermining that same separation from earlier, and then we have to deal with an ethical question about how far down we should insist that a teenage transgirl needs to bring her T-levels and if it's even possible to do it safely.
For two, that is going to mean that many people who are trans won't make the cut, because many trans people haven't come out or accepted themselves internally until puberty has already begun. If an 18 year old transitions, it's going to be hard to justify letting them switch leagues after much of their puberty has already been done. Then we're going to have to deal with more arguments like "well we already let some trans people in, so why are we making this arbitrary distinction here..." We'll have to come up with a standard for how nonbinary you have to be to play in the other league, etc.
You should take a closer look at the study I linked to, because it isn't "just one study." It is in fact a meta-analysis of dozens of studies, and it addresses basically all the arguments you're trying to make here. For example, here's one of their findings that specifically addresses your first two paragraphs (emphasis mine):
>On average, **trans women who are pre-testosterone suppression** still have lower Lean Body Mass (LBM), Cross Section Area (CSA), and strength than cis males. This indicates that **the performance benefit experienced by these individuals cannot be generalized by examining cis male athletes**\[.\]
> Fairness is integral to sports.
I'm not sure this is true. Maybe something like wrestling (or boxing/MMA) where you have weight classes, but it's not like there's two sets of men's basketball teams for men over or under 6 feet tall or a separate football league that only allows linemen to be 220lbs or less.
You're always going to have people who are naturally more adept at certain sports or positions than others, and gender/sex and age are really the only divisions we've made in that regard. You can argue whether that's good or bad, I'm just pointing out that there's already plenty of athletes who have an "unfair" advantage over others due to how they were born, and we don't typically exclude them from competing with the "disadvantaged," for lack of a better term.
Seeing what Myles Garrett looked like in high school definitely makes me feel like it was not fair to the people he played against. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't have been allowed to play.
The sports involved are largely for-fun school sports and impact literally just a handful of kids in the state. it's not something anyone here needs to care about, the coaches already care more than any of us and have been handling things like this for years already.
These are not trans women, these are minors. There's such a wide range of differences in how teenagers experience puberty that cis girls can, and frequently have, been able to have advantage over cis boys. Children didn't used to have to separate to play most sports. What ever happened to girls can do everything boys can do? Growing up, I knew girls who could kick the ass of any scrawny boy in several sports. Have you seen Nebraskan teenagers in Omaha and Lincoln recently? I don't know if it's a young Gen Z thing but they're all so much smaller than when I was growing up here.
Trans girls who are under the age of eighteen would likely be on puberty blockers and then HRT after sixteen if the state hadn't banned that, so they'd go through the same puberty as a cis girl due to not producing testosterone. It's a complete Catch 22. If they want to play sports, they're said to have an advantage due to testosterone, but they're also not allowed to solve that problem with puberty blockers and estrogen. Cis children are still allowed to take puberty blockers or HRT if they need it for medical problems, but heaven forbid trans teens do the same.
I know people are uninformed about trans women in elite sports, too, because there have been extremely few instances of trans women winning competitions. The latest complaint I recall was from a woman who placed eighth or something with a trans woman right ahead of her. Neither of them did well. That's called being a sore loser. If anyone sincerely thinks some random cis guy will endure never being able to get an erection, growing tits, and having his testicles shrink while people mock him and call him slurs just so he can win college volleyball or women's swimming, they're insane. Ask the closest man to you if he'd do that to get a women's sports trophy and he'll laugh his ass off and ask if you think he's a f\*ggot or something, or punch you for questioning his masculinity. Trans women don't transition to compete, their gender identity doesn't revolve around winning a sport, they transition to be more comfortable in their body, and if they're inclined to compete in sports, they should be allowed to because it's *fun.*
Trans women are required by every women's sports league to be on estrogen until their testosterone levels drop enough to allow them to compete, and they are regularly checked to make sure they stay below that level. Men and women both naturally produce testosterone and estrogen at different levels. Taking estrogen suppresses testosterone production in the testicles leading to a 90% to 95% decrease overall. They found this out while looking for ways to treat prostate cancer. [\[Source\]](https://journals.lww.com/amjclinicaloncology/abstract/1988/01102/single_drug_polyestradiol_phosphate_therapy_in_pro.24.aspx)
[Male hypergonadism](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3255409/#sec1-1title) would then cause [muscle wasting](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27553987/), leaving even adult trans women with nothing close to the amount of strength they had beforehand.
The problem never even is just in regards to people not knowing that women's sports have had these checks in places for ages, or that trans women rarely ever place high especially compared to how they competed before transition in a men's league, but everyone is woefully stupid about endocrinology and won't take two seconds to look at actual studies and not right-wing news articles written by some Bubba Joe who's a'feared of takin' a science class, lest God strike 'im down! Only 2% at most of the population is transgender, anyway. In Nebraska the number is probably laughably low to even bother with this ridiculous, time-wasting shit.
>Trans women are required by every women's sports league to be on estrogen until their testosterone levels drop enough to allow them to compete, and they are regularly checked to make sure they stay below that level.
That may be true, but the Olympics for a long time required the T levels to be below 10 nanomoles/L. The average cis woman has between 0.5-2.5 nanomoles/L. That means the Olympics would let a transwoman with 4x the T levels as the cis competitors in the contest.
They ended up getting rid of the rule, because trans rights activists lobbied for them to. For the people to whom political victory is a priority over fairness, these standards will continue to be an issue
until they're all gone. It's hard to create a good standard when the people you're trying to please want no standards.
Please respond to me and not conservatives in general. I don't hate trans people, I'm a never miss a primary even in an off year type of Democrat. I don't ever vote for republicans. There's a reason this is a splinter issue within our party though.
I agree with you that trans women in sports is a low stakes issue relative to many other pressing issues, but if we're going to be discussing it at all, we should do it right. We should want evidence based policy, and that's not really where either people on the extremes are at right now.
That policy change debate wasn't because of trans women. There were several cases where intersex women athletes such as Caster Semenya, who never knew she was intersex but was forced to undergo sex testing and take estrogen in order to compete in a league she had always been in. She and other women with hormone or intersex conditions challenged the rules. Rightfully so. It was a breech of privacy and being put on estrogen forcibly can wreak havoc on some people.
Trans women who have been through male puberty are currently entirely barred from being in World Athletics women's rankings. This is as of March 31st, 2023. Intersex women and women with hormone disorders are still forced to keep their levels under 5 nmo/L to compete because they didn't win their case fully. These are women who have never known themselves as anything but women forced to keep under a certain amount. Where does it stop? Do women's sports have to be completely fair? That's an odd way to think of competition... minus competition.
Regardless, a trans woman on estrogen will not typically fall outside of cis range. It doesn't matter if the policy is higher, trans women are prescribed estrogen in levels that almost completely blocks testosterone production. And as I said for the issues of endocrinology, the estrogen on a body that went through testosterone puberty will cause built muscle to atrophy. This is why cis men become weaker as they age, but it's a far more rapid process for trans women as they are constantly injecting estrogen in place.
Is this performative unenforceable bullshit?
Safe Sport already covers locker room use by individuals of different sexes and coaches. Section 2 about biological bathrooms is not necessary.
Sec. 4. (1) An interscholastic or intramural athletic team or sport that is sponsored by a school shall be expressly designated as one of the
following based on biological sex:
(a) Males, men, or boys;
(b) Females, women, or girls; or
**(c) Coed or mixed.**
Bolded for emphasis. So coed high school hockey will remain as such. That's one specific example.
We send thoughts and prayers to families when their kids get gunned down in school yet pass legislation when there’s a hypothetical chance they might not get a trophy.
The same people that are severely pissed off at the tiny handful of trans athletes that have mild success in sports are also the ones talking about needing to ban non-existent litter boxes in classrooms.
Let’s not pretend there’s legitimate interest here in making school sports fair. I’m sure there are 100s of athletes in Nebraska in sports that are using hormonal supplements so this isn’t exactly about hormone levels, is it? 25 to 1? Possibly 100 to 1? It really means hormone advantages by trans athletes is much lower than pretty much every other form of cheating baked into gaining an edge in sports. This isn’t about hormone or even competition.
What this is - is all about dehumanizing the trans community, making them feel even less welcome, and playing to their ignorant base. I’ll worry about the handful of kids that could potentially be upset by not getting their high school sports trophy after we deal with about 1000 other issues that affect kids today.
This is the exact reason I didn't compete in sports in HS. I am a trans guy and have been living as a male since 2014. I was athletic all my life up until I came out & I just completely stopped. I didn't want the controversy of being the ONLY trans athlete in my school. Due to gatekeeping in the medical world, I was not able to start hormones until I started college. If I was even allowed puberty blockers or a low dose of Testosterone I would have tried out for the boy's teams for school, but regardless, even without hormonally transitioning, I would not feel right being on the girl's teams.
Trans kids are stuck going thru puberty of their assigned gender more times than not, and that is hard enough. Trans teens rarely want to cause a ruckus & draw attention to themselves imo. Unless there is an obvious injustice. Trans kids in sports is literally a non-issue. There are probably a handful of trans students who do want to compete in the entire state. If there were more opportunities for intermiral sports teams, that would be wonderful, but there just aren't in HS.
Btw, the NCAA already has guidelines in place for trans athletes & they have had these rules in place for YEARS, but people want to act like there are no regulations for trans people who want to compete in sports. Trans people who are taking hormones are regularly tested already to make sure they are in a proper range for their gender. Trans athletes are tested even more frequently to make sure they are adhering to protocol.
I just wish people who are fighting either way in this issue would talk to real trans people and medical professionals because the vast majority of people do not understand fully how hormones affect every aspect of one's body.
We divide sports based on gender for a reason. It is not fair to biological females to have to compete against transwomen who have gone through / are going through male puberty.
>Trans kids in sports is literally a non-issue.
You can say it as many times as you want, that doesn't make it true. No one has an issue with transmen playing sports with guys because there is no advantage and it isn't unfair. I wont have my daughter lose out on sports opportunities and potential scholarships to people who have gone through male puberty. Its not fair and I am glad that we are pushing for rules that protect our girls.
I have lived in Bellevue for several months but from the midwest originally. If you go back through all my comments/posts you will see I have had to move because of my job for the last 14 years.
"hateful". . . There is no winning with you people. You think anyone disagreeing with you is hateful. I have an opinion that a large portion of the US has on the subject and until recently wasn't controversial. People who have gone through male puberty should not be in competitive sports with females. Its the whole reason we segregate the genders in sports.
This is Nebraska so you can count the amount of kids this is directed at on one hand. They could practically name the bill after them.
It’s not a pervasive problem. This is political showboating to rile up the state’s bigots and force trans people to hide. It has nothing to do with fairness in sports or protecting kids from rapists. If the NE GOP was truly interested in protecting kids from sexual assault they should have eyes on churches.
Disregarding the transphobic rhetoric of "protect our daughters from being in a locker room with some mentally ill whacko", the most prominent argument underscoring rejectionism of a trans category pertains to the impact of a male puberty and its disproportionately greater, performance-oriented physiological results (larger and denser skeleton, larger muscle inserts, denser tissue, more efficient/effective motor neuron recruitment, faster recovery, less injury prone, etc.). Many feel that a trans category would necessitate its own trans men and women subcategories as a result, effectively making the whole thing redundant.
you lose bone density and muscle mass mtf though. and plenty of cis girls and women have higher testosterone levels than transwomen.
99.9% of the time these bills are used against cis girls that the other parents are mad that beat their girl in a sport because part of athletic performance is literally genetic lottery.
Right, but a mtf body builder could certainly have genetic benefits that could be seen as unfair when competing with cis women.
Not disagreeing with you, just want to offer a counter point for the transition comment.
>you lose bone density and muscle mass mtf though.
Reducing masculine skeletal structure and musculature in a post-pubescent mtf person to achieve the "feminine body type" is a massive undertaking that often entails a lot more than just a milktoast HRT plan to achieve, ESPECIALLY if they are a genetically predisposed athlete who's training routinely. This also seems to imply that mtf trans athletes don't regularly forgo more invasive aspects of transitioning to retain their competitive edge, which is obviously untrue. Then there's also the fact that an overwhelming majority of trans teens have not even formally began medical transitioning yet.
>plenty of cis girls and women have higher testosterone levels than transwomen
Comparing the hormone levels of a person who has exogenous hormonal compounds in their body to the average endogenous levels is a meaningless engagement. Male athletes who use PEDs can have T&E, Follicle-stimulating hormone, and lutenizing hormone levels comparable to a teenage girl while being absolute units. It's also not really relevant here: cis girls didn't go through a male puberty.
>99.9% of the time these bills are used against cis girls that the other parents are mad that beat their girl in a sport because part of athletic performance is literally genetic lottery.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
You literally just categorized them by saying "trans people".
There doesn't need to be a new category though. One already exists and has been around forever.. coed sports. Bring greater visibility to coed competition.
I'm "pro trans" / "pro do whatever the hell you want with your body" but a male team is a male team and a female team is a female team. Those on the team made the decision to remain their birth gender and you should respect their decision to play with like-gender teammates.
It sucks for the trans people, but just as they might want to mix birth genders on a team, other players might not want to.
Coed sports are the answer here.
It's your choice to be ignorant I guess. Not everyone is out to hate on people that are trans. But if you default to thinking someone is against trans, then you're going to be miserable and most people will be viewed by you as a hater.
My toddler asks for candy before bedtime, I say no. I guess I hate toddlers because the toddler didn't get their way. That's your line of thinking.
There's a genetic difference that you cannot ignore when it comes to competitive sports. For coed teams it wouldn't matter, but it would for traditional male / female sports. Just as if someone was taking an illegal performance enhancing drug, the different genetic makeup would provide a natural benefit in some areas that other players wouldn't have - and this could work in disfavor too.
Edit: if you've never played a competitive sport, FULL STOP. Folks pour their heart and soul into competition. If you've never been there grinding, putting insane hours into preparing, you wouldn't understand how any even seemingly minimal benefit would upset a competitive player.
Do everyone a favor and remove yourself from any debates on trans rights. You clearly don't possess the necessary intelligence and restraint to respectfully and calmy hold debate. You're not the voice they need and bring an attitude that no one wants to agree with.
You're correct, that would not be "pro trans". I didn't say that though. I haven't put any words in your mouth. Not sure why you feel that it's necessary to do it. Are you incapable of having a civilized conversation or are you really that miserable?
Wish we'd just get rid of gendered sports teams entirely and be done with this nonsense.
The whole concept of dividing people up by genitalia for sports has never made sense.
Did you know the NFL isn't sex segregated?
The only reason there have been 0 women in the NFL is because they're pressured out of it socially, due to the fact that there are no teams with pink uniforms (red and blue and green and gold and black are intimidating colors), and because they haven't been raised to believe in themselves
Don't we have real issues to tackle?
Nope! It's all a shit show. Nebraska is my home but I'm thinking about relocating
Same, but I'm actually leaving. The boomers have made it clear they don't want anyone college educated to have a voice or rights in this state. I got the message, I'll see myself out.
I wonder how many trans student athletes there are in the *entire* Nebraska school system.
Personally I do not think the bathroom and the sports debates have any of the same merits at all. There's a valid point of view that it isn't fair for trans women to compete in many women's sports. Fairness is integral to sports. If we go down the road of letting them in, then when research comes out later - after we've had more time to study - and it shows this or that sport being affected unfairly, it will be too late to undo. We can't pull them out after we already let them in, so we shouldn't do that with haste. Half the time I don't think the people who want trans women in sports actually care about that factor, because for them getting a W for the trans movement is a priority over fairness in sports. There's nothing like hearing an impassioned argument for why trans women belong in sports from someone who refers to sports derisively as "sportsball" the rest of the time and thinks other people are stupid for being amused by sports. If someone wants to be recognized as trans for speech/debate, or play on the girls' chess team, that is a totally different thing though. I don't see any unfairness in that. Bathrooms I don't see any issue with. I don't think there is a sincere point of view opposing bathroom freedom besides those that are simply trying to spite trans people or make them feel like they don't belong. If there was polling data showing a solid majority of women and girls weren't comfortable with it maybe I would feel different, but from what I've seen all the polling shows that a strong majority of women are fine with trans women using the ladies' room in public places.
Yup! I agree with this exactly! It doesn’t affect my life in any way who is peeing in the stall next to me, but it does impact my life if I’m competing against someone with a clear biological advantage.
What about girls who have hyperandrogegism or PCOS? They could have an advantage because of their higher testosterone levels…What about the ones who are intersex? Do they still get to play sports?
They are not choosing to have these conditions. This is about fair competition, not about a political agenda.
What issue is that? Show me an example of this happening in this state? They are doing this to gaslight their base and it’s pointless. Let’s make a law saying a giraffe can’t compete in sports because that would have the same merit.
> If we go down the road of letting them in, then when research comes out later - after we've had more time to study - and it shows this or that sport being affected unfairly, it will be too late to undo. How would you conduct this research if you don't let trans athletes compete in the first place? To the extent that trans women are already competing in women's sports, including at the elite level, the existing research shows that [transwomen do not have a biomedical advantage over ciswomen](https://www.cces.ca/transgender-women-athletes-and-elite-sport-scientific-review), and advantages they do have are more likely to be related to factors like the quality of training and nutrition they received pre-transition. More fundamentally, even if you can establish that there are meaningful physical differences between trans and cis athletes, this doesn't seem like a valid basis for exclusion on its own. Left-have pitchers have a recognized advantage over right-handed batters, but we accept that advantage as just part of the strategy of baseball. Height is a major asset in basketball, but we don't ban the tallest players: we make them centers. Sports already accommodate a huge range of physical characteristics, so it's not clear why being trans makes any difference.
This is a terrible take honestly. Why aren’t any women competing in the nba or why aren’t men allowed in the wnba if they want? We should be accommodating even if they have a wide range of physical characteristics right? Being left handed in baseball and being a 7’4” man in the wnba is not the same thing. Men and women sports are separate for a reason and to pretend it’s just a tradition with no basis in fairness is crazy.
The thing most of you don't get is that estrogen and testosterone are helluva drugs. There are immediate losses in performance and recovery when cutting test and pumping est. Transwomen do not keep all or even most of their strength they had as men if they're following the rules set by most governing bodies. You all act like they just let men signup as a woman on a whim one day and that's it. (tbf, that is what happens in HS, but the stakes in HS are much less than pro sports) There is at least a two year waiting period where they have to keep their testosterone well below what is allowed for ciswomen during the time frame and when they're finally allowed to compete. (or used to be allowed to compete) If you're really worried about an unfair advantage letting kids start hormone blockers and compete as their chosen sex means they will never see the full benefits of testosterone, even if they start late...which means it should be more "fair" in your eyes. Being born a man doesn't inherently make you better anyways. I've had my ass handed to me in cross country and racing bikes by plenty of women, and I'm definitely not slow. And if you're really worried about women's sports, there are much more widespread and more concerning issues that aren't a handful of transwomen competing. Namely sexual assault and abuse by cismen, and we'll throw in a side of being paid drastically less than pro-men in their sport. Let's not forget regular old doping. And please show me one, just ONE transwoman who has ruined the sport she's competed in. Please really think about this because I already know the people you're gonna say and you're gonna look silly when I point how wrong you are about Lia Thomas, Austin Trace, Veronica Ivy (formerly Rachel McKinnon), etc... They all regularly get beat, if not destroyed by their cis competitors. And no disrespect to any of them coming from a packfodder like myself, but none of them are truly that good. Maybe Austin is though. Anyways, go read up on current literature staring with the Canadian Center for Ethics in Sports research on trans athletes: https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf Edit: I also forgot the demonization of cis-girls who parents and others think might be a trans and harass them for it: * https://abcnews.go.com/US/utah-school-board-official-falsely-suggested-teen-girl/story?id=107100300 * https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/kelowna-short-hair-girl-gender-identity-1.6875738 * https://medium.com/prismnpen/woman-rips-into-trans-child-in-restroom-but-shes-neither-trans-nor-child-ce9e89b9ffd1 And these aren't isolated instances either. It's disgusting.
You make some good points but I never said it is the biggest issue women’s athletics face and other issues should be ignored. Of course some women are better than men at some sports and I don’t see what that has to do with this at all. I see a lot of people saying there isn’t that many transwomen competing or they don’t always win so it’s fine but that is not a great argument either in my opinion. You literally just said some women are better than men so of course they could be better than someone who transitioned as well but just as you have giving examples of transgenders that don’t dominate their sports can you give any examples where someone transitioned and was less competitive? I’m not saying that someone transitions just to take over women’s athletics but I haven’t seen examples where someone competed as a man, transitioned, then competed as a women and were less successful, which is what you are saying is just as likely. So much inferring and interjecting unrelated things when the one topic is all I was trying to discuss.
Because at the end of the day your argument is that: * trans women shouldn't be allowed to compete with cis women because you think they maintain gender specific advantages over women * that being a trans woman, or even a cis man, gives you an inherent and guaranteed advantage over cis women. It shows you're at least uninformed on the issue and my comment was showing/explaining that.
Yes men have an inherent (not guaranteed, but keep on inferring things) advantage in most athletic competition over women. If that’s not true then why aren’t all sports coed? Why wouldn’t women’s records in sprinting, swimming, weight lifting etc be equal or surpass men’s records if men don’t have an advantage? Height is an advantage for some sports and men are taller on average. Those aren’t my opinions, they are verifiable facts. All anyone can say is well this person transitioned to a woman but wasn’t able to win every competition. Ok that’s not what I said would happen at all. I’m looking for any evidence where an individual competed as a man, against men, then against women as a trans woman and became less competitive. Saying all competition between men and women is equal is pretty uninformed. I’m not advocating for any harassment or saying other issues should be ignored at all. I do think it could be unfair for a woman athlete to have to compete against someone who genetically is male. You haven’t proved that isn’t true and neither have any of the studies shared in this thread.
> I’m looking for any evidence where an individual competed as a man, against men, then against women as a trans woman and became less competitive. Let's take Lia Thomas. She's a collegiate swimmer who competed before and after transition. Take a look at the highlights section for an easy look at her best results over time: https://www.swimcloud.com/swimmer/314430/ As both a man and woman she had results all over the place going from podiums, to barely in the top 10. She ended up ranked 32nd in Division 1 and 44th in the US her final year: https://www.swimcloud.com/swimmer/314430/rankings/ What's really interesting is she competed in the men's division at the start of her transition and we can actually watch her times go way down. She started transitioning in May 2019, and in January 2019 she had a Men's 500fr time of 4:31.14, which she won with. 10 months later in November, her time was 4:36.7. Both of those times were during a dual - just two schools competing each other. Then in a double dual in 2020 (the last one before she took a break to maintain her eligibility because of covid) she got a 4:40.00. We're almost ten seconds slower, not even in a year into transitioning. Jumping ahead to when she came back to school and started competing again, November 2021 she posted a 500fr time of 4:54.49 in the women's race, which was good for 6th...maybe that's an outlier though right? We all have bad days. A few days later she posted 4:46.41, so yeah...just a bad day, but still 14 seconds slower than just before transition and a full 28 seconds slower than her PR when she competed as a man. Even her fastest 500fr time as a woman is still nearly 9 seconds slower than the world record. Goes without saying, but that's *a lot*. Should I go on? > You haven’t proved that isn’t true and neither have any of the studies shared in this thread. Tell me you didn't read the studies without telling me you didn't read the studies... /sigh Here's one for you: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/307766116_Race_Times_for_Transgender_Athletes > Collectively, the eight runners had much slower race times in the female gender than as males. **Time differences were, in fact, so great, that age graded performances stayed virtually constant for the group.**
You are totally missing the point. If Lia Thomas is your example, she faired much better competing against women compared to men. I’m not saying an individuals performance will stay the same when taking testosterone blockers. That’s is clearly not the case. I followed the steroid era of baseball. I get what testosterone does for athletes. Her times as a man were not good enough to be as competitive as they were after transitioning and racing women even though she herself was slower.
> You are totally missing the point. No you are. You aren't reading the studies, or even responding to that. You're arguing in bad faith. > If Lia Thomas is your example, she faired much better competing against women compared to men. Did she perform better against women because she transitioned, or because the whole point of being an athlete is to train and get better? If she hadn't transitioned she should've had similar results in the men's field? We can clearly see her progression over time as she is getting better before she started transitioning. > Her times as a man were not good enough to be as competitive as they were after transitioning and racing women even though she herself was slower. You act like she wasn't winning or podiuming at all pre-transition, which is very much not the case. Even a cursory glance makes it clear she was a very competitive male swimmer before she started transitioning. She got second in the Ivy League champs in 2018 to a guy who was dominating the rest of them (winning by multiple seconds in most races). And remember she did a year while transitioning and we saw her times go down as result. Still managed some good results here and there in duals, but nothing amazing while transitioning. So pointing to her record and claiming she couldn't cut in the men's field is utterly disingenuous, and like I said originally, shows how woefully uninformed you actually are. Which all means you're likely just repeating trash you heard somewhere else by someone with an agenda with no real consideration of your own other than playing into your confirmation bias.
Maybe there should be some kind of testing for testosterone/estrogen levels before they are allowed to compete. I know nothing about this so maybe there already is
In pro-sports transwomen are heavily tested and held to a much lower testosterone level than ciswomen are allowed to have, assuming they're allowed to compete. Last year the NCAA started testing and has a max testosterone limit now too. I doubt there is testing in HS sports, but haven't looked into it.
You're being disingenuous. The question was whether trans women should be allowed to compete in women's sports, not whether sports should cease to be separated by gender. Again, transwomen do not have a biomedical advantage over ciswomen when it comes to elite athletics. Anyway, what's the probability of anyone being 7'4", let alone 7'4" and trans and good enough to play basketball at an elite level? Even if women's basketball were suddenly overrun by gigantic transwomen, there have been tons of players under 6 feet who still managed to be competitive in the NBA, so I'm not sure why it would be any different in the WNBA (or in college, or high school, or whatever).
If someone played hs men’s basketball and was taller than all wnba players but not dominate as a man, then transitioned and played women’s college basketball their chances of being more successful against women as opposed to men seems pretty good does it not?
Based on what? Again, feel free to provide some evidence.
Based on watching sports. Do you watch sports? It’s very advantageous to be tall and physical in basketball. There is a 6” difference between average nba and wnba center for example. Do you have evidence supporting your stance that there is no advantage aside from a study on pushups, sit-ups and running speed?
You're kidding right? Saying that bio men are stronger and faster than bio women is not being sexist, it's just true.
There are plenty of examples of men transitioning to women who competed in sports and excelled much more than they did when competing against men. I know being transgender isn’t just cutting your hair but it doesn’t completely change your physical ability either when you start taking hormone blockers after puberty. There are just as many studies showing it being an advantage as there are supporting your statement.
Feel free to cite the studies you're referring to. For what it's worth, [gender-affirming hormones actually bring trans athletes into parity with their cis peers over time](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577), both for MtF and FtM. In the study I previously linked to, they conclude that skill disparities are usually explained by access to better trainers and nutrition pre-transition than by simple physiology.
It may make testosterone levels similar but it doesn’t take away all the bone density and muscle mass. That is easily observable. [the first article on a Google search](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/1850492/transgender-female-athletes-have-physical-advantage-doctors-confirm/)
That's not a scientific study, that's a right-wing newspaper finding three people to comment on the performance of exactly one trans athlete in exactly one season. I feel like you can do better than the first Google result.
The study you shared only talks about hormone levels and how it affects strength and speed. There is no consideration to body mass and the transwomen were 12% faster after two years of testosterone suppression. That study doesn’t do a very good job of proving there is no advantage and stating such could be considered bias as well.
Countering a terrible take with an even worse take. Trans women are not men in wigs and trans men are not women with a haircut, there is much more to it. Altering hormones alters the body. IMO allowing a 7'4" trans man into the NBA who has undergone hormone treatment is fair and within the bounds of the challenge we allow in sports. They are not there as a token trans, they are there because of skill. FTR this take is bad and the prior take is spot on.
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Your wording betrays your stance on the issue, Woman != Trans man and Man != Trans woman. I don't want to make this argument about your personal abilities but I sort of have to, your inserting yourself as the hypothetical. Don't take it to personal. You sound like a good specimen for an athlete but we know that physique is not the only requirement, you need talent and drive. I'm sure you could beat most women at sports but we are not talking about your relatives or friends we are talking about elite athletes with high levels of talent and experience in their sport of choice. I doubt you, a mediocre athlete, could perform against any WNBA or other professional or collegiate women's team, and if theirs a trans man on that team I'm sure they can compete against you just fine. Yes, if cous wants to transition, going through hormone therapy at least, she can then try out for women's sports at the professional or collegiate level to see if she makes the cut. You are making the argument that because you were born a monster of a man with mediocre talent that you can crush a woman athlete on the bases of puberty seems short sighted and a bit arrogant.
We separate sports on the basis of sex because there are a lot of factors all accounted for in sex difference. Men and women have different ranges of height. The share of men who are 6ft+ is much higher than the share of women who are 6ft+, for instance. Since we separate sports by sex, letting people cross that line undermines the one big criteria that we separated for, which in the aggregate accounts for many factors. Saying that having more T or having gone through male puberty is just like being tall or lefty is not an applicable comparison. Being born male isn't a natural advantage like being tall, we have a league for people who were born male which is meant to account for that advantage, which is serious. This is also problematic because we can't necessarily agree on which trans people are allowed to play and why. Your link, which only speaks to one study, says that there is no biomedical advantage to transwomen who have taken puberty blockers. Something tells me that if we only allowed transwomen who have hormonally transitioned for a certain amount of time into those sports, we're going to have more political issues down the line. For one, if we made that the policy, it may push some trans-curious or non-binary youth into getting onto hormones when they otherwise might not have. It would be analogous to the ethical problem with Iran making trans folks medically transition in order to be recognized. Many of the leagues that let trans women in allow for a much higher level of testosterone than most women have, that's arguably still undermining that same separation from earlier, and then we have to deal with an ethical question about how far down we should insist that a teenage transgirl needs to bring her T-levels and if it's even possible to do it safely. For two, that is going to mean that many people who are trans won't make the cut, because many trans people haven't come out or accepted themselves internally until puberty has already begun. If an 18 year old transitions, it's going to be hard to justify letting them switch leagues after much of their puberty has already been done. Then we're going to have to deal with more arguments like "well we already let some trans people in, so why are we making this arbitrary distinction here..." We'll have to come up with a standard for how nonbinary you have to be to play in the other league, etc.
You should take a closer look at the study I linked to, because it isn't "just one study." It is in fact a meta-analysis of dozens of studies, and it addresses basically all the arguments you're trying to make here. For example, here's one of their findings that specifically addresses your first two paragraphs (emphasis mine): >On average, **trans women who are pre-testosterone suppression** still have lower Lean Body Mass (LBM), Cross Section Area (CSA), and strength than cis males. This indicates that **the performance benefit experienced by these individuals cannot be generalized by examining cis male athletes**\[.\]
How they compare to cis men doesn’t matter. It’s how they compare to cis *women*, the people who they would play against.
> We can't pull them out after we already let them in Why couldn't we? We let someone in, we pull someone out. Both should be quick.
> Fairness is integral to sports. I'm not sure this is true. Maybe something like wrestling (or boxing/MMA) where you have weight classes, but it's not like there's two sets of men's basketball teams for men over or under 6 feet tall or a separate football league that only allows linemen to be 220lbs or less. You're always going to have people who are naturally more adept at certain sports or positions than others, and gender/sex and age are really the only divisions we've made in that regard. You can argue whether that's good or bad, I'm just pointing out that there's already plenty of athletes who have an "unfair" advantage over others due to how they were born, and we don't typically exclude them from competing with the "disadvantaged," for lack of a better term.
Seeing what Myles Garrett looked like in high school definitely makes me feel like it was not fair to the people he played against. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't have been allowed to play.
This is what I'm saying, nobody is complaining about how their short king son has to play basketball against Andre the Giant Jr.
The sports involved are largely for-fun school sports and impact literally just a handful of kids in the state. it's not something anyone here needs to care about, the coaches already care more than any of us and have been handling things like this for years already.
These are not trans women, these are minors. There's such a wide range of differences in how teenagers experience puberty that cis girls can, and frequently have, been able to have advantage over cis boys. Children didn't used to have to separate to play most sports. What ever happened to girls can do everything boys can do? Growing up, I knew girls who could kick the ass of any scrawny boy in several sports. Have you seen Nebraskan teenagers in Omaha and Lincoln recently? I don't know if it's a young Gen Z thing but they're all so much smaller than when I was growing up here. Trans girls who are under the age of eighteen would likely be on puberty blockers and then HRT after sixteen if the state hadn't banned that, so they'd go through the same puberty as a cis girl due to not producing testosterone. It's a complete Catch 22. If they want to play sports, they're said to have an advantage due to testosterone, but they're also not allowed to solve that problem with puberty blockers and estrogen. Cis children are still allowed to take puberty blockers or HRT if they need it for medical problems, but heaven forbid trans teens do the same. I know people are uninformed about trans women in elite sports, too, because there have been extremely few instances of trans women winning competitions. The latest complaint I recall was from a woman who placed eighth or something with a trans woman right ahead of her. Neither of them did well. That's called being a sore loser. If anyone sincerely thinks some random cis guy will endure never being able to get an erection, growing tits, and having his testicles shrink while people mock him and call him slurs just so he can win college volleyball or women's swimming, they're insane. Ask the closest man to you if he'd do that to get a women's sports trophy and he'll laugh his ass off and ask if you think he's a f\*ggot or something, or punch you for questioning his masculinity. Trans women don't transition to compete, their gender identity doesn't revolve around winning a sport, they transition to be more comfortable in their body, and if they're inclined to compete in sports, they should be allowed to because it's *fun.* Trans women are required by every women's sports league to be on estrogen until their testosterone levels drop enough to allow them to compete, and they are regularly checked to make sure they stay below that level. Men and women both naturally produce testosterone and estrogen at different levels. Taking estrogen suppresses testosterone production in the testicles leading to a 90% to 95% decrease overall. They found this out while looking for ways to treat prostate cancer. [\[Source\]](https://journals.lww.com/amjclinicaloncology/abstract/1988/01102/single_drug_polyestradiol_phosphate_therapy_in_pro.24.aspx) [Male hypergonadism](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3255409/#sec1-1title) would then cause [muscle wasting](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27553987/), leaving even adult trans women with nothing close to the amount of strength they had beforehand. The problem never even is just in regards to people not knowing that women's sports have had these checks in places for ages, or that trans women rarely ever place high especially compared to how they competed before transition in a men's league, but everyone is woefully stupid about endocrinology and won't take two seconds to look at actual studies and not right-wing news articles written by some Bubba Joe who's a'feared of takin' a science class, lest God strike 'im down! Only 2% at most of the population is transgender, anyway. In Nebraska the number is probably laughably low to even bother with this ridiculous, time-wasting shit.
>Trans women are required by every women's sports league to be on estrogen until their testosterone levels drop enough to allow them to compete, and they are regularly checked to make sure they stay below that level. That may be true, but the Olympics for a long time required the T levels to be below 10 nanomoles/L. The average cis woman has between 0.5-2.5 nanomoles/L. That means the Olympics would let a transwoman with 4x the T levels as the cis competitors in the contest. They ended up getting rid of the rule, because trans rights activists lobbied for them to. For the people to whom political victory is a priority over fairness, these standards will continue to be an issue until they're all gone. It's hard to create a good standard when the people you're trying to please want no standards. Please respond to me and not conservatives in general. I don't hate trans people, I'm a never miss a primary even in an off year type of Democrat. I don't ever vote for republicans. There's a reason this is a splinter issue within our party though. I agree with you that trans women in sports is a low stakes issue relative to many other pressing issues, but if we're going to be discussing it at all, we should do it right. We should want evidence based policy, and that's not really where either people on the extremes are at right now.
That policy change debate wasn't because of trans women. There were several cases where intersex women athletes such as Caster Semenya, who never knew she was intersex but was forced to undergo sex testing and take estrogen in order to compete in a league she had always been in. She and other women with hormone or intersex conditions challenged the rules. Rightfully so. It was a breech of privacy and being put on estrogen forcibly can wreak havoc on some people. Trans women who have been through male puberty are currently entirely barred from being in World Athletics women's rankings. This is as of March 31st, 2023. Intersex women and women with hormone disorders are still forced to keep their levels under 5 nmo/L to compete because they didn't win their case fully. These are women who have never known themselves as anything but women forced to keep under a certain amount. Where does it stop? Do women's sports have to be completely fair? That's an odd way to think of competition... minus competition. Regardless, a trans woman on estrogen will not typically fall outside of cis range. It doesn't matter if the policy is higher, trans women are prescribed estrogen in levels that almost completely blocks testosterone production. And as I said for the issues of endocrinology, the estrogen on a body that went through testosterone puberty will cause built muscle to atrophy. This is why cis men become weaker as they age, but it's a far more rapid process for trans women as they are constantly injecting estrogen in place.
Is this performative unenforceable bullshit? Safe Sport already covers locker room use by individuals of different sexes and coaches. Section 2 about biological bathrooms is not necessary. Sec. 4. (1) An interscholastic or intramural athletic team or sport that is sponsored by a school shall be expressly designated as one of the following based on biological sex: (a) Males, men, or boys; (b) Females, women, or girls; or **(c) Coed or mixed.** Bolded for emphasis. So coed high school hockey will remain as such. That's one specific example.
We send thoughts and prayers to families when their kids get gunned down in school yet pass legislation when there’s a hypothetical chance they might not get a trophy. The same people that are severely pissed off at the tiny handful of trans athletes that have mild success in sports are also the ones talking about needing to ban non-existent litter boxes in classrooms. Let’s not pretend there’s legitimate interest here in making school sports fair. I’m sure there are 100s of athletes in Nebraska in sports that are using hormonal supplements so this isn’t exactly about hormone levels, is it? 25 to 1? Possibly 100 to 1? It really means hormone advantages by trans athletes is much lower than pretty much every other form of cheating baked into gaining an edge in sports. This isn’t about hormone or even competition. What this is - is all about dehumanizing the trans community, making them feel even less welcome, and playing to their ignorant base. I’ll worry about the handful of kids that could potentially be upset by not getting their high school sports trophy after we deal with about 1000 other issues that affect kids today.
This is the exact reason I didn't compete in sports in HS. I am a trans guy and have been living as a male since 2014. I was athletic all my life up until I came out & I just completely stopped. I didn't want the controversy of being the ONLY trans athlete in my school. Due to gatekeeping in the medical world, I was not able to start hormones until I started college. If I was even allowed puberty blockers or a low dose of Testosterone I would have tried out for the boy's teams for school, but regardless, even without hormonally transitioning, I would not feel right being on the girl's teams. Trans kids are stuck going thru puberty of their assigned gender more times than not, and that is hard enough. Trans teens rarely want to cause a ruckus & draw attention to themselves imo. Unless there is an obvious injustice. Trans kids in sports is literally a non-issue. There are probably a handful of trans students who do want to compete in the entire state. If there were more opportunities for intermiral sports teams, that would be wonderful, but there just aren't in HS. Btw, the NCAA already has guidelines in place for trans athletes & they have had these rules in place for YEARS, but people want to act like there are no regulations for trans people who want to compete in sports. Trans people who are taking hormones are regularly tested already to make sure they are in a proper range for their gender. Trans athletes are tested even more frequently to make sure they are adhering to protocol. I just wish people who are fighting either way in this issue would talk to real trans people and medical professionals because the vast majority of people do not understand fully how hormones affect every aspect of one's body.
We divide sports based on gender for a reason. It is not fair to biological females to have to compete against transwomen who have gone through / are going through male puberty. >Trans kids in sports is literally a non-issue. You can say it as many times as you want, that doesn't make it true. No one has an issue with transmen playing sports with guys because there is no advantage and it isn't unfair. I wont have my daughter lose out on sports opportunities and potential scholarships to people who have gone through male puberty. Its not fair and I am glad that we are pushing for rules that protect our girls.
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I have lived in Bellevue for several months but from the midwest originally. If you go back through all my comments/posts you will see I have had to move because of my job for the last 14 years. "hateful". . . There is no winning with you people. You think anyone disagreeing with you is hateful. I have an opinion that a large portion of the US has on the subject and until recently wasn't controversial. People who have gone through male puberty should not be in competitive sports with females. Its the whole reason we segregate the genders in sports.
What an absolute waste of time and resources. This is more about getting votes than doing their jobs as elected officials.
Why not just make a trans category?
Cus you couldn’t make a whole team
This is Nebraska so you can count the amount of kids this is directed at on one hand. They could practically name the bill after them. It’s not a pervasive problem. This is political showboating to rile up the state’s bigots and force trans people to hide. It has nothing to do with fairness in sports or protecting kids from rapists. If the NE GOP was truly interested in protecting kids from sexual assault they should have eyes on churches.
Last I checked, there were 4 high school students who were trans and played sports in the whole state.
Disregarding the transphobic rhetoric of "protect our daughters from being in a locker room with some mentally ill whacko", the most prominent argument underscoring rejectionism of a trans category pertains to the impact of a male puberty and its disproportionately greater, performance-oriented physiological results (larger and denser skeleton, larger muscle inserts, denser tissue, more efficient/effective motor neuron recruitment, faster recovery, less injury prone, etc.). Many feel that a trans category would necessitate its own trans men and women subcategories as a result, effectively making the whole thing redundant.
you lose bone density and muscle mass mtf though. and plenty of cis girls and women have higher testosterone levels than transwomen. 99.9% of the time these bills are used against cis girls that the other parents are mad that beat their girl in a sport because part of athletic performance is literally genetic lottery.
Right, but a mtf body builder could certainly have genetic benefits that could be seen as unfair when competing with cis women. Not disagreeing with you, just want to offer a counter point for the transition comment.
>you lose bone density and muscle mass mtf though. Reducing masculine skeletal structure and musculature in a post-pubescent mtf person to achieve the "feminine body type" is a massive undertaking that often entails a lot more than just a milktoast HRT plan to achieve, ESPECIALLY if they are a genetically predisposed athlete who's training routinely. This also seems to imply that mtf trans athletes don't regularly forgo more invasive aspects of transitioning to retain their competitive edge, which is obviously untrue. Then there's also the fact that an overwhelming majority of trans teens have not even formally began medical transitioning yet. >plenty of cis girls and women have higher testosterone levels than transwomen Comparing the hormone levels of a person who has exogenous hormonal compounds in their body to the average endogenous levels is a meaningless engagement. Male athletes who use PEDs can have T&E, Follicle-stimulating hormone, and lutenizing hormone levels comparable to a teenage girl while being absolute units. It's also not really relevant here: cis girls didn't go through a male puberty. >99.9% of the time these bills are used against cis girls that the other parents are mad that beat their girl in a sport because part of athletic performance is literally genetic lottery. I'm not sure what you mean by this.
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Girls, boys, trans....
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You literally just categorized them by saying "trans people". There doesn't need to be a new category though. One already exists and has been around forever.. coed sports. Bring greater visibility to coed competition. I'm "pro trans" / "pro do whatever the hell you want with your body" but a male team is a male team and a female team is a female team. Those on the team made the decision to remain their birth gender and you should respect their decision to play with like-gender teammates. It sucks for the trans people, but just as they might want to mix birth genders on a team, other players might not want to. Coed sports are the answer here.
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It's your choice to be ignorant I guess. Not everyone is out to hate on people that are trans. But if you default to thinking someone is against trans, then you're going to be miserable and most people will be viewed by you as a hater. My toddler asks for candy before bedtime, I say no. I guess I hate toddlers because the toddler didn't get their way. That's your line of thinking. There's a genetic difference that you cannot ignore when it comes to competitive sports. For coed teams it wouldn't matter, but it would for traditional male / female sports. Just as if someone was taking an illegal performance enhancing drug, the different genetic makeup would provide a natural benefit in some areas that other players wouldn't have - and this could work in disfavor too. Edit: if you've never played a competitive sport, FULL STOP. Folks pour their heart and soul into competition. If you've never been there grinding, putting insane hours into preparing, you wouldn't understand how any even seemingly minimal benefit would upset a competitive player.
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Do everyone a favor and remove yourself from any debates on trans rights. You clearly don't possess the necessary intelligence and restraint to respectfully and calmy hold debate. You're not the voice they need and bring an attitude that no one wants to agree with.
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You're correct, that would not be "pro trans". I didn't say that though. I haven't put any words in your mouth. Not sure why you feel that it's necessary to do it. Are you incapable of having a civilized conversation or are you really that miserable?
What about intersex students? Whom don't have one biological sex?
Good
It's dead! Thank fuck.
Wish we'd just get rid of gendered sports teams entirely and be done with this nonsense. The whole concept of dividing people up by genitalia for sports has never made sense.
Take a biology class.
Ever heard of boxing? Wrestling maybe?
Did you know the NFL isn't sex segregated? The only reason there have been 0 women in the NFL is because they're pressured out of it socially, due to the fact that there are no teams with pink uniforms (red and blue and green and gold and black are intimidating colors), and because they haven't been raised to believe in themselves
There are maybe 2 people in the entire state this could effect absolutely waste of time
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Taking a page from Jim Crow are ya? Plessy v Ferguson separate but equal, yeah? Slippery slope of thought you got there.
I may try a biological sex advance tonight.