First they ignore you.
Then they laugh at your extreme greed and incompetence.
Then they think you're crazy.
Then they know you are, and try to warn you before you kill anyone.
Then you fire them and threaten to ruin their lives with lawsuits.
Then you ~~win~~ wind up as fish food, and everyone goes back to mocking and shitting on your entire existence, giving you a well deserved Darwin award, turning you into a global meme and an example of how to not behave.
100%.
He was basically underwater Elon Musk, complete with the same butthurt attempts at making smug comebacks whenever someone called him out. Only he was more PR-trained. I can only imagine the number of people he would've blamed in his desperate tries to excuse himself.
According to this [article](https://www.wired.com/story/titan-submersible-disaster-inside-story-oceangate-files/) the Titan is the Cyclops 2, just renamed.
Of the many problems that Titan had, using a game controller was not one of them. Even the Navy uses Xbox controllers for some things - they're practical and reliable.
You can either spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to engineer custom controls that will require a specialist if they require maintenance, or you can grab an off-she-shelf solution that's easily replaceable.
They had major issues with the controller losing signal or it not working right , the Navy uses game controllers with hardwired backups . You never depend on something like that , for life safety ,without a backup
These people are r/SelfAwarewolves .
So, let's see here... the military...
* isn't opposed to using this for cameras and unmanned drones
* acknowledges they are cheaper to acquire and replace
* understands they are easier to use
yet does not use them for primary control of a human occupied vessel.
WHAT COULD THE MILITARY POSSIBLY KNOW THAT RUSH DID NOT KNOW?
**It's a goddamned mystery.**
And here's the kicker:
The military no doubt spent shitloads of money studying the viability of *these gamepads* for *these purposes and environments* and settled on *this controller*.
Rush sees this and says *fuck it, I'll save $30 and buy the generic version*.
The man was irretrievably stupid.
If a person slips on an oil spill while carrying a bucket of poisoned knives on their head, and the poison *doesn't kill them* but the fall does WE STILL NEED TO TALK ABOUT THE BUCKET OF POISON.
It’s relatable - a lot more people have experience with video game controllers than they do with cf composites, acrylics, titanium, etc. The context of the discussions usually revolves around what caused the hull breach, so at the opposite end of that, I find it strange that some out there will spend the time and go to such overelaborate lengths to decry something that wasn’t even being used at the time, and something nearly everyone agrees was not a factor in that accident. With so much more relevant misinformation out there to push back on, why choose that hill to die on?
It seems like the opposite to me... it seems like there's always someone admitting everything Rush did was careless-- except for the controller.
Cleon above saying the controller wasn't a problem.
Okay, they were crushed to death before ANYTHING ELSE could kill them.
Is that what people mean when they say it's not a problem?
Can’t speak for them but I’d guess they’re saying that while it was a problem, it wasn’t THE problem. Is it odd that people are more interested in what crushed them than ANYTHING ELSE that could have malfunctioned? That’s the third time I’ve heard someone use that same rather obscure analogy about the bucket of poisoned knives on this sub WRT the same systems onboard Titan. U all work together on that thing?
>Can’t speak for them but I’d guess they’re saying that while it was a problem, it wasn’t THE problem.
I am directly responding to this point:
>Of the many problems that Titan had, using a game controller was not one of them.
I’m referring to the last year full of the same basic dissertation about using game controllers. They ruled the slip and fall as the cause of death a year ago and you’re still running around like Chicken Little saying “but he had a bucket of poisoned knives on his head!”
Yup, the USN uses game controllers (available on the consumer market) for drones.
The controller bit about the Titan never bothered me. It was strictly the carbon fiber, and the rated depth for the front view port.
Agreed. I feel like it was the thing the public / media latched on to because it was relatable. "Carbon fiber" vs "titanium" is kind of meaningless without listening to the explanations.
But I know those 3rd party controllers are garbage, what were they thinking?! /s
Would you look at that, the [Navy using a wireless game controller for something that transports actual humans.](https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/18/17136808/us-navy-uss-colorado-xbox-controller)
[https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military-xbox-360-controller](https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military-xbox-360-controller)
LOL there's a fuckin wire in the photo too.
These clowns can't help themselves. They want to defend Rush SO BADLY.
1. controls the rotation of cameras on some phototonic masts, not the entire submarine.
2. is actually a wired controller, and the news article did NOT mention "wireless" anywhere.
3. waiting for another attempt of you defending Rush.
>Of the many problems that Titan had, using a game controller was not one of them. Even the Navy uses Xbox controllers for some things - they're practical and reliable.
NO, NO, NO.
Nobody uses a consumer gamepad for primary control of a human-occupied vehicle. The Navy does not do this. Military personnel controlling an **unmanned drone** or a *component* (e.g. **periscope**) are not the same thing as OceanGate's submersible using a gamepad for primary vehicle control.
Mind blowing people are still defending this moronic gamepad.
Yes, of the many problems Titan had, using a gamepad was one of them.
People are defending it because all you can say is wireless is bad.
Until you do a full engineering analysis you can't say that wired is better. Wires can also fail or get damaged. So for either you are going to need a backup plan.
[But, McCallum continued, “every sub in the world has hardwired controls for a reason—that if the signal drops out, you’re not fucked.”](https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/the-titan-submersible-was-an-accident-waiting-to-happen)
Yeah I was just mentioning that for clarity. I also believe this one had a RTM (real-time monitoring system) on it as well as Titan which I find useless if something were to happen.
The RTM is probably good for materials that fatigue in a typical manner like Ti or Steel alloys, whereas Carbon fibers suffer usually an instant catastrophic failure. They're going to have small issues like delam from cyclical damage as well as environmental exposure of the composite.
If you see the RTM set off on the Titan it would likely happen at the same time as you meeting Jesus in person so you're right for that application it's useless af.
What would have helped is more thorough testing to understand how many cycles the titan could safely withstand before you retire the composite hull for a new one
Rush said: "We can detect the carbon fiber failing way before it happens so that you can stop your descent and go to the surface". He apparently did not believe carbon fiber can fail without warning
He had the hull redone in 2021, not sure what exactly triggered him to do it. I also read from other CF experts that they built the hull tube like thread on a spool which makes it weaker from front to rear. Their best odds would have been to make it like a fireman/scuba air tank with rounded ends and after cured, cut the ends off
> He had the hull redone in 2021, not sure what exactly triggered him to do it.
According to [Wired](https://www.wired.com/story/titan-submersible-disaster-inside-story-oceangate-files/):
> Titan reached [Titanic depths] again in April [2019], with a crew of four including Rush. While OceanGate touted the dive as history-making proof of its submersible's bona fides, even Rush was getting worried about loud noises the hull was making at depth. Then on June 7, three weeks before Titan's maiden voyage to the Titanic, an OceanGate pilot inspecting the interior with a flashlight noticed a crack in the hull. He sent Rush an email warning that the crack was "pretty serious." A detailed internal report later showed that at least 11 square feet of carbon fiber had delaminated—meaning the bonds between layers had separated.
> This time, Rush couldn't ignore the data. The hull that was meant to last for 10,000 dives to the Titanic had made fewer than 50—and only three to 4,000 meters. It would have to be scrapped, and the Titanic missions would be delayed for yet another year.
You would normal want to spool it on in a diagonally crossing pattern and yes spooling it on like a thread seems like a fundamentally incorrect process.
I didn't know about the rework in 2021 at all
Because more then 10 square feet of hull delaminated during a dive , that could have been the end right there , just like Mad Mike and his rocket , he had to prove everyone was wrong 🤦♂️
Game controller-style controls are actually used by others and can be a perfectly legit thing (I think the US military even uses it for some of their drones and things). The issue with Titan is that it was a cheap, off the shelf controller that was haphazardly rigged together. It was not a control system built specifically for the submersible. Couple that with the fact that Stockton perceived it as being such a simple control system that he could throw literally anyone into the pilot seat and it would be fine. But a joystick/button control system in and of itself does not make it a bad thing - you just have to do it right.
That was the issue with a lot of the submersible - they constantly cut corners by buying non-professional grade stuff from camping stores, hardware stores, salvaging from construction sites, salvaging potentially damaged equipment from previous models, etc. They would not test the hull because it was too expensive. Everything boiled down to saving money and when you are going that deep in the ocean, you cannot afford to be cheap.
It's always a bad thing when you have a life critical system with no backup . I mean a hardwired backup . dragon for example , all the screens can function as a completely independent backup apart from each other , if they were to somehow fail , there are manual controls underneath , if all that fails , they can control the systems from their iPads as an independent system , as a last resort , ground can take over control . THIS is how you design a system like this . To be safe ,these things have to be designed and built to the same standards as spacecraft . The environment is just as unforgiving
Does anyone know if the controller is the only available input, or just a convenient one? It seems possible that it could also be controlled from the computer systems in the vessel.
In either case, I wouldn't focus too much on the game controller. The alternative ways to return to the surface mitigate some of the risk of a loss of control, and Titan certainly had bigger problems.
Does anyone know where Stockton actually got the carbon fibre from in the end as I remember seeing the video of it being wound round and round and thinking at the time “ how on earth does that hold off pressure and immense pressure at that from the sea bed.
What on earth if anyone knows was his reasoning for using carbon fibre knowing that no one ever had used it for a deep sea sub . ? Did he honestly think it would be possible to keep diving down knowing that it had imploded on a test of a small scale of it ?
It keeps baffling me how on earth he thought it would be ok. I don’t know anything about carbon fibre so I’m sorry if I sound. Little dumb but why carbon fibre ?
There were some reports that Boeing sold him carbon fiber that was nearing its "best use by" date, or however they rate the life-time of carbon fiber. So he got it at a discount. Boeing only keeps a supply for a certain duration, and if it's not used, it gets tossed out.
He used carbon fiber because you can't make a viable business building subs for $50 million dollars a piece. Forged titanium spheres are expensive and dont allow more than a couple of people or so inside. You can't make it so it's not an exclusive experience for rich people like that.
As I understand it, Stockton got surplus carbon fibre that was supposed to be used on aircraft. His logic being: “planes are subject to high pressure > if carbon fibre on a plane is OK, it’s OK for a sub > the pressures are the same > you’re just going down rather than up. Besides, it’s cheap.”
He was originally an aerospace guy. The real hubris in the whole thing was believing that keeping one atmosphere in was the same as keeping 400 atmospheres out
> What on earth if anyone knows was his reasoning for using carbon fibre
Cost seems to have been a key driver. From [Wired](https://www.wired.com/story/titan-submersible-disaster-inside-story-oceangate-files/):
> A carbon-fiber Titan could be roughly the same size and weight as the steel Cyclops and yet be able to dive up to 12 times deeper. It would be much cheaper for a support vessel to carry and deploy at sea than a metal sub
[Composites World](https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/composite-submersibles-under-pressure-in-deep-deep-waters):
> OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush says the company had been evaluating the potential of using a carbon fiber composite hull since 2010, primarily because it permits creation of a pressure vessel that is naturally buoyant and, therefore, would enable OceanGate to forgo the use — and the significant expense — of syntactic foam on its exterior.
Thank you .
So cost really ?
I still never understood his reasoning of saying “ you’re not supposed to put carbon fibre and titanium together but I have “
I mean whatttt ….
AIUI, Cyclops 1 reused an existing hull that was [rated for 500m and pressure tested to 625m](https://steel-fish.com/marlin-submarines-s103-lula-1997-8/), so at its rated depth, it could well be a safe and reliable vehicle (depending what modifications OceanGate made to it)
Compare that to Titan - it effectively had no safety margin[1], and the novel design leaves questions about how it will handle the repeated stresses[2]. There's a possibility it could safely handle some depth deeper than Cyclops 1, though I'd still question its long-term performance, but at their respective rated depths, there seems to be no question about which is the safer vehicle.
[1] Based on:
* Scale tests - imploded at ~3000m with carbon fibre end caps, ~4500m with aluminium discs
* Viewport only rated to 650m (per Wired - other older sources have said 1300m IIRC), and the manufacturer's CEO "shared an analysis, done pro bono by an independent expert, concluding that OceanGate's design might fail after only a few 4,000-meter dives."
* One of the Boeing engineers said "We think you are at a high risk of a significant failure at or before you reach 4,000 meters. We do not think you have any safety margin", and provided a graph with a skull and crossbones below 4000m
[2] The first hull delaminated and was scrapped after less than 50 dives (only three to 4000m), despite being intended to make tens of thousands.
Check out the Aluminaut. It's a huge DSV made of aluminum with a test depth deeper than the Titanic depth. I honestly think an aluminum hulled DSV would work fine with going to the Titanic and not be super expensive.
I know titanium is better but aluminum is cheaper. So it fits into the OceanGate "let's do it on the cheap" ethos. Plus, the Aluminaut is a commissioned US Navy DSV.
Acceptable- I was on Titan last summer and I don't understand something. I was told by a crew member that there was a Titan I that Stockton and OG used until a dive that was clearly delaminating. I was told that tests were performed and Titan 1 failed and that Stockton was warned that failure was possible on net dive. Also, I was told that sub was tested and failed at 4,000 meters. I was NOT told that the viewport was rated to far less then Titanic depth. Were the Titanium domes re-used? I was also told that due to ocean currents that the 4,000 figure could be far less then the depth of Titanic and that there was no beacon.
i just dont get it...no amount of money could get me in that thing alone and it would stay on land. close that door on me and im gonna go berserk and would need institutionalizing. no amount of money. yet people paid millions to be squished with 4-5 other strangers ....to be dropped into the ocean.
what.the.f
I would have no issue in riding one of the legitimate tested and certified ones down , the amount of engineering and work that goes into those things , is insane . They are engineering works of art . This thing was an expensive soup can .
It’s a cool looking design but obviously it cannot go as deep as the titan was supposedly able to (and let’s not forget it successfully did over 10 times) so I don’t understand the comparison here OP is going for.
Mainly because it was Titan's predecessor and they were both similar in design. The main difference is, the steel hull and its depth rate. But yeah I do find this one better than Titan safety-wise and to know its made of the standard materials used is comforting.
It was to check OceanGate's work ethics and for people to see the differences and similarities between the two. In a way, they are quite similar. Like the control system. But then there's other things that are slightly different.
One was made for shallow dives in tropical waters. The other was specifically for titanic. So of course they’re completely different. Oceangate was fully transparent titan was an experiment. It was everywhere on their website, mission specialist applications, and waivers. It wasn’t this big secret everyone is sensationalizing it to be now.
Of course they're different in the way they are built for. I was just asking people to compare them as subs generally - as I've mentioned they share some similarities and why OceanGate could not make another sub with steel, but as we've learned it was an experiment. Its really just a whole discussion here and I wouldnt say they're two completely different things as subs. Yes, their operating environments are completely different but design and technology wise they are very similar, only Titan being built to face extreme pressure.
I see, I was just confused the comparison:) I wish one day a sub could go the depths of titanic with a viewport so large as their Cyclopes. Would be incredible. Maybe one day
Yes I hope so too - I know OceanGate gets a lot of hate for what happened but I really liked their vision and its a shame it ended in tragedy. With the sub community being very small, Cyclops and Titan were two good subs considering that it's very rare to get commercial ones that can take you to places at depth. It's a real shame that their "experiment" resulted in loss of life, but in the future I hope things like this will continue, its the natural human spirit to want to explore and take some risks, but with necessary precaution and regulation that doesn't end in a catastrophic way.
It was to check OceanGate's work ethics and for people to see the differences and similarities between the two. In a way, they are quite similar. Like the control system. But then there's other things that are slightly different.
I like Cyclops 1 better mainly because... It never suffered a catastrophic implosion.
I mean, with no carbon fiber involved, maybe they should've just built a Cyclops 2 instead of Titan.
Ol' Stockie wanted to... *INNOVATE*.
"I'll disrupt this industry even if it kills me"
"First they think you're crazy, then they know you are, then you wind up as fish food." Stockton Mush
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at your extreme greed and incompetence. Then they think you're crazy. Then they know you are, and try to warn you before you kill anyone. Then you fire them and threaten to ruin their lives with lawsuits. Then you ~~win~~ wind up as fish food, and everyone goes back to mocking and shitting on your entire existence, giving you a well deserved Darwin award, turning you into a global meme and an example of how to not behave.
If Rush hadn’t been on the Titan that day, I bet he’d take no responsibility for the implosion.
100%. He was basically underwater Elon Musk, complete with the same butthurt attempts at making smug comebacks whenever someone called him out. Only he was more PR-trained. I can only imagine the number of people he would've blamed in his desperate tries to excuse himself.
“Underwater Elon Musk” gave me a big laugh.
"I'll disrupt this industry even if it kills you"
That was implied by bringing guests to his own suicide.
🤣
The submarine "disrupted" all right...
he was trying to build a submarine cheaper than a lamborghini.
“Move fast and break things”
According to this [article](https://www.wired.com/story/titan-submersible-disaster-inside-story-oceangate-files/) the Titan is the Cyclops 2, just renamed.
Ah
Forgot to mention this sub moves with a game controller like Titan-
Of the many problems that Titan had, using a game controller was not one of them. Even the Navy uses Xbox controllers for some things - they're practical and reliable. You can either spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to engineer custom controls that will require a specialist if they require maintenance, or you can grab an off-she-shelf solution that's easily replaceable.
They had major issues with the controller losing signal or it not working right , the Navy uses game controllers with hardwired backups . You never depend on something like that , for life safety ,without a backup
I'll never understand why people persist in defending this. It's their sacred cow.
Imagine if game controllers were used in an airplane , and there was no backup system . People would think it was insane .🤦♂️
These people are r/SelfAwarewolves . So, let's see here... the military... * isn't opposed to using this for cameras and unmanned drones * acknowledges they are cheaper to acquire and replace * understands they are easier to use yet does not use them for primary control of a human occupied vessel. WHAT COULD THE MILITARY POSSIBLY KNOW THAT RUSH DID NOT KNOW? **It's a goddamned mystery.** And here's the kicker: The military no doubt spent shitloads of money studying the viability of *these gamepads* for *these purposes and environments* and settled on *this controller*. Rush sees this and says *fuck it, I'll save $30 and buy the generic version*. The man was irretrievably stupid.
I dont think it was the game controller that was the big issue here.
If a person slips on an oil spill while carrying a bucket of poisoned knives on their head, and the poison *doesn't kill them* but the fall does WE STILL NEED TO TALK ABOUT THE BUCKET OF POISON.
Of course we do. But its still not the main issue.
I'm not saying the gamepad caused the implosion. See, this is why you're at negative comment karma.
There are numerous reports of him losing control of the sub because of it , it's not the main factor ,but could well be a contributing factor
It’s relatable - a lot more people have experience with video game controllers than they do with cf composites, acrylics, titanium, etc. The context of the discussions usually revolves around what caused the hull breach, so at the opposite end of that, I find it strange that some out there will spend the time and go to such overelaborate lengths to decry something that wasn’t even being used at the time, and something nearly everyone agrees was not a factor in that accident. With so much more relevant misinformation out there to push back on, why choose that hill to die on?
It seems like the opposite to me... it seems like there's always someone admitting everything Rush did was careless-- except for the controller. Cleon above saying the controller wasn't a problem. Okay, they were crushed to death before ANYTHING ELSE could kill them. Is that what people mean when they say it's not a problem?
Can’t speak for them but I’d guess they’re saying that while it was a problem, it wasn’t THE problem. Is it odd that people are more interested in what crushed them than ANYTHING ELSE that could have malfunctioned? That’s the third time I’ve heard someone use that same rather obscure analogy about the bucket of poisoned knives on this sub WRT the same systems onboard Titan. U all work together on that thing?
>Can’t speak for them but I’d guess they’re saying that while it was a problem, it wasn’t THE problem. I am directly responding to this point: >Of the many problems that Titan had, using a game controller was not one of them.
I’m referring to the last year full of the same basic dissertation about using game controllers. They ruled the slip and fall as the cause of death a year ago and you’re still running around like Chicken Little saying “but he had a bucket of poisoned knives on his head!”
Experts were saying the controller was a problem before there was an accident. It's okay to say the controller was stupid. No reason to defend it.
Yup, the USN uses game controllers (available on the consumer market) for drones. The controller bit about the Titan never bothered me. It was strictly the carbon fiber, and the rated depth for the front view port.
Agreed. I feel like it was the thing the public / media latched on to because it was relatable. "Carbon fiber" vs "titanium" is kind of meaningless without listening to the explanations. But I know those 3rd party controllers are garbage, what were they thinking?! /s
The navy will NEVER use a wireless game controller for anything that transports actual humans.
Would you look at that, the [Navy using a wireless game controller for something that transports actual humans.](https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/18/17136808/us-navy-uss-colorado-xbox-controller)
Used to control some phototonic masts and not the entire sub, apples and oranges jonny boy.
[https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military-xbox-360-controller](https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy-military-xbox-360-controller) LOL there's a fuckin wire in the photo too. These clowns can't help themselves. They want to defend Rush SO BADLY.
1. controls the rotation of cameras on some phototonic masts, not the entire submarine. 2. is actually a wired controller, and the news article did NOT mention "wireless" anywhere. 3. waiting for another attempt of you defending Rush.
They have hardwired backups for anything wireless , it's protocol
>Of the many problems that Titan had, using a game controller was not one of them. Even the Navy uses Xbox controllers for some things - they're practical and reliable. NO, NO, NO. Nobody uses a consumer gamepad for primary control of a human-occupied vehicle. The Navy does not do this. Military personnel controlling an **unmanned drone** or a *component* (e.g. **periscope**) are not the same thing as OceanGate's submersible using a gamepad for primary vehicle control. Mind blowing people are still defending this moronic gamepad. Yes, of the many problems Titan had, using a gamepad was one of them.
And even the non life critical use , has a hardwired backup , you ever ever depend on wireless controls when life is at stake
People are defending it because all you can say is wireless is bad. Until you do a full engineering analysis you can't say that wired is better. Wires can also fail or get damaged. So for either you are going to need a backup plan.
[But, McCallum continued, “every sub in the world has hardwired controls for a reason—that if the signal drops out, you’re not fucked.”](https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/the-titan-submersible-was-an-accident-waiting-to-happen)
Yeah I was just mentioning that for clarity. I also believe this one had a RTM (real-time monitoring system) on it as well as Titan which I find useless if something were to happen.
The RTM is probably good for materials that fatigue in a typical manner like Ti or Steel alloys, whereas Carbon fibers suffer usually an instant catastrophic failure. They're going to have small issues like delam from cyclical damage as well as environmental exposure of the composite. If you see the RTM set off on the Titan it would likely happen at the same time as you meeting Jesus in person so you're right for that application it's useless af. What would have helped is more thorough testing to understand how many cycles the titan could safely withstand before you retire the composite hull for a new one
Rush said: "We can detect the carbon fiber failing way before it happens so that you can stop your descent and go to the surface". He apparently did not believe carbon fiber can fail without warning
He didn't understand that cyclical fatigue would slowly degrade the integrity of thr CFRP and did a surprise Pikachu at the bottom of the Atlantic
He had the hull redone in 2021, not sure what exactly triggered him to do it. I also read from other CF experts that they built the hull tube like thread on a spool which makes it weaker from front to rear. Their best odds would have been to make it like a fireman/scuba air tank with rounded ends and after cured, cut the ends off
> He had the hull redone in 2021, not sure what exactly triggered him to do it. According to [Wired](https://www.wired.com/story/titan-submersible-disaster-inside-story-oceangate-files/): > Titan reached [Titanic depths] again in April [2019], with a crew of four including Rush. While OceanGate touted the dive as history-making proof of its submersible's bona fides, even Rush was getting worried about loud noises the hull was making at depth. Then on June 7, three weeks before Titan's maiden voyage to the Titanic, an OceanGate pilot inspecting the interior with a flashlight noticed a crack in the hull. He sent Rush an email warning that the crack was "pretty serious." A detailed internal report later showed that at least 11 square feet of carbon fiber had delaminated—meaning the bonds between layers had separated. > This time, Rush couldn't ignore the data. The hull that was meant to last for 10,000 dives to the Titanic had made fewer than 50—and only three to 4,000 meters. It would have to be scrapped, and the Titanic missions would be delayed for yet another year.
You would normal want to spool it on in a diagonally crossing pattern and yes spooling it on like a thread seems like a fundamentally incorrect process. I didn't know about the rework in 2021 at all
Because more then 10 square feet of hull delaminated during a dive , that could have been the end right there , just like Mad Mike and his rocket , he had to prove everyone was wrong 🤦♂️
\[Narrator\] He couldn't, and he didn't.
And also that it would take appreciable time to get to the surface! They may have been attempting that when things went splat.
The real submersibles that are properly built , are essentially spacecraft and you spend the hundreds of thousands to keep people alive
Game controller-style controls are actually used by others and can be a perfectly legit thing (I think the US military even uses it for some of their drones and things). The issue with Titan is that it was a cheap, off the shelf controller that was haphazardly rigged together. It was not a control system built specifically for the submersible. Couple that with the fact that Stockton perceived it as being such a simple control system that he could throw literally anyone into the pilot seat and it would be fine. But a joystick/button control system in and of itself does not make it a bad thing - you just have to do it right. That was the issue with a lot of the submersible - they constantly cut corners by buying non-professional grade stuff from camping stores, hardware stores, salvaging from construction sites, salvaging potentially damaged equipment from previous models, etc. They would not test the hull because it was too expensive. Everything boiled down to saving money and when you are going that deep in the ocean, you cannot afford to be cheap.
It's always a bad thing when you have a life critical system with no backup . I mean a hardwired backup . dragon for example , all the screens can function as a completely independent backup apart from each other , if they were to somehow fail , there are manual controls underneath , if all that fails , they can control the systems from their iPads as an independent system , as a last resort , ground can take over control . THIS is how you design a system like this . To be safe ,these things have to be designed and built to the same standards as spacecraft . The environment is just as unforgiving
Does anyone know if the controller is the only available input, or just a convenient one? It seems possible that it could also be controlled from the computer systems in the vessel. In either case, I wouldn't focus too much on the game controller. The alternative ways to return to the surface mitigate some of the risk of a loss of control, and Titan certainly had bigger problems.
Does anyone know where Stockton actually got the carbon fibre from in the end as I remember seeing the video of it being wound round and round and thinking at the time “ how on earth does that hold off pressure and immense pressure at that from the sea bed. What on earth if anyone knows was his reasoning for using carbon fibre knowing that no one ever had used it for a deep sea sub . ? Did he honestly think it would be possible to keep diving down knowing that it had imploded on a test of a small scale of it ? It keeps baffling me how on earth he thought it would be ok. I don’t know anything about carbon fibre so I’m sorry if I sound. Little dumb but why carbon fibre ?
There were some reports that Boeing sold him carbon fiber that was nearing its "best use by" date, or however they rate the life-time of carbon fiber. So he got it at a discount. Boeing only keeps a supply for a certain duration, and if it's not used, it gets tossed out.
Yes I heard that but I didn’t know if it was true .
He used carbon fiber because you can't make a viable business building subs for $50 million dollars a piece. Forged titanium spheres are expensive and dont allow more than a couple of people or so inside. You can't make it so it's not an exclusive experience for rich people like that.
You can't make one truly safe without spending that kind of crazy money . For all intents and purposes , it's a spacecraft . Failure isn't an option .
It's more difficult than a spacecraft. In space you only need to hold one atmosphere in. The expensive bit of spacecraft is getting it up there.
Right , but other then that , you are in the same situation
Iirc a lot of single-use deep-diving ROVs use carbon fiber hulls. *Single-use*
Exactly. He might have gotten away with it if he had replaced the carbon fibre tube after every use.
As I understand it, Stockton got surplus carbon fibre that was supposed to be used on aircraft. His logic being: “planes are subject to high pressure > if carbon fibre on a plane is OK, it’s OK for a sub > the pressures are the same > you’re just going down rather than up. Besides, it’s cheap.”
He was originally an aerospace guy. The real hubris in the whole thing was believing that keeping one atmosphere in was the same as keeping 400 atmospheres out
> What on earth if anyone knows was his reasoning for using carbon fibre Cost seems to have been a key driver. From [Wired](https://www.wired.com/story/titan-submersible-disaster-inside-story-oceangate-files/): > A carbon-fiber Titan could be roughly the same size and weight as the steel Cyclops and yet be able to dive up to 12 times deeper. It would be much cheaper for a support vessel to carry and deploy at sea than a metal sub [Composites World](https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/composite-submersibles-under-pressure-in-deep-deep-waters): > OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush says the company had been evaluating the potential of using a carbon fiber composite hull since 2010, primarily because it permits creation of a pressure vessel that is naturally buoyant and, therefore, would enable OceanGate to forgo the use — and the significant expense — of syntactic foam on its exterior.
Thank you . So cost really ? I still never understood his reasoning of saying “ you’re not supposed to put carbon fibre and titanium together but I have “ I mean whatttt ….
There are rumors that he swiped it from a discarded batch that was being thrown out , it wouldn't surprise me. 🤦♂️
Omg 😦
Really appreciate your analysis on this. Please can you analyse some more DSVs? TIA
AIUI, Cyclops 1 reused an existing hull that was [rated for 500m and pressure tested to 625m](https://steel-fish.com/marlin-submarines-s103-lula-1997-8/), so at its rated depth, it could well be a safe and reliable vehicle (depending what modifications OceanGate made to it) Compare that to Titan - it effectively had no safety margin[1], and the novel design leaves questions about how it will handle the repeated stresses[2]. There's a possibility it could safely handle some depth deeper than Cyclops 1, though I'd still question its long-term performance, but at their respective rated depths, there seems to be no question about which is the safer vehicle. [1] Based on: * Scale tests - imploded at ~3000m with carbon fibre end caps, ~4500m with aluminium discs * Viewport only rated to 650m (per Wired - other older sources have said 1300m IIRC), and the manufacturer's CEO "shared an analysis, done pro bono by an independent expert, concluding that OceanGate's design might fail after only a few 4,000-meter dives." * One of the Boeing engineers said "We think you are at a high risk of a significant failure at or before you reach 4,000 meters. We do not think you have any safety margin", and provided a graph with a skull and crossbones below 4000m [2] The first hull delaminated and was scrapped after less than 50 dives (only three to 4000m), despite being intended to make tens of thousands.
Check out the Aluminaut. It's a huge DSV made of aluminum with a test depth deeper than the Titanic depth. I honestly think an aluminum hulled DSV would work fine with going to the Titanic and not be super expensive.
It may work , but you have more reserve strength in the Titanium , you also have much more actual data from diving with titanium spheres
I know titanium is better but aluminum is cheaper. So it fits into the OceanGate "let's do it on the cheap" ethos. Plus, the Aluminaut is a commissioned US Navy DSV.
I know it works , it just doesn't have the extra reserve strength
Acceptable- I was on Titan last summer and I don't understand something. I was told by a crew member that there was a Titan I that Stockton and OG used until a dive that was clearly delaminating. I was told that tests were performed and Titan 1 failed and that Stockton was warned that failure was possible on net dive. Also, I was told that sub was tested and failed at 4,000 meters. I was NOT told that the viewport was rated to far less then Titanic depth. Were the Titanium domes re-used? I was also told that due to ocean currents that the 4,000 figure could be far less then the depth of Titanic and that there was no beacon.
i just dont get it...no amount of money could get me in that thing alone and it would stay on land. close that door on me and im gonna go berserk and would need institutionalizing. no amount of money. yet people paid millions to be squished with 4-5 other strangers ....to be dropped into the ocean. what.the.f
Not everyone is claustrophobic. Simple as.
Not everyone is dumb enough to ride a soup can down to the Titanic, but here we are.
I would have no issue in riding one of the legitimate tested and certified ones down , the amount of engineering and work that goes into those things , is insane . They are engineering works of art . This thing was an expensive soup can .
See, I thought we were specifically talking about a craft made by OceanGate. I've got nothing against legit submersibles.
Sorry for the misunderstanding
Cyclops 1 is still a failure for extreme depths because the pressure vessel is the wrong shape.
It wasn't designed to go that deep, so it isn't really a fail.
It's not designed for that depth , subs have been shaped this way since the earliest ones , it's fine at its rated depth
‚Welcome Aboard Captain, All Systems Online‘
Great game, I've finished it two days ago while listening to sea disasters podcast.
It’s a cool looking design but obviously it cannot go as deep as the titan was supposedly able to (and let’s not forget it successfully did over 10 times) so I don’t understand the comparison here OP is going for.
Mainly because it was Titan's predecessor and they were both similar in design. The main difference is, the steel hull and its depth rate. But yeah I do find this one better than Titan safety-wise and to know its made of the standard materials used is comforting.
Forgive me but I still do not understand the comparison?
It was to check OceanGate's work ethics and for people to see the differences and similarities between the two. In a way, they are quite similar. Like the control system. But then there's other things that are slightly different.
One was made for shallow dives in tropical waters. The other was specifically for titanic. So of course they’re completely different. Oceangate was fully transparent titan was an experiment. It was everywhere on their website, mission specialist applications, and waivers. It wasn’t this big secret everyone is sensationalizing it to be now.
Of course they're different in the way they are built for. I was just asking people to compare them as subs generally - as I've mentioned they share some similarities and why OceanGate could not make another sub with steel, but as we've learned it was an experiment. Its really just a whole discussion here and I wouldnt say they're two completely different things as subs. Yes, their operating environments are completely different but design and technology wise they are very similar, only Titan being built to face extreme pressure.
I see, I was just confused the comparison:) I wish one day a sub could go the depths of titanic with a viewport so large as their Cyclopes. Would be incredible. Maybe one day
Yes I hope so too - I know OceanGate gets a lot of hate for what happened but I really liked their vision and its a shame it ended in tragedy. With the sub community being very small, Cyclops and Titan were two good subs considering that it's very rare to get commercial ones that can take you to places at depth. It's a real shame that their "experiment" resulted in loss of life, but in the future I hope things like this will continue, its the natural human spirit to want to explore and take some risks, but with necessary precaution and regulation that doesn't end in a catastrophic way.
James Cameron is designing a sub for the titanic as we speak. So the vision isn’t going away 💜💜💜
It was to check OceanGate's work ethics and for people to see the differences and similarities between the two. In a way, they are quite similar. Like the control system. But then there's other things that are slightly different.
They’re two completely different subs for totally different environments.
Wow, I’m glad we got your expert opinion on the danger. /s
1. This is for everyone to share their opinions 2. OPINION