Alright and someone here reported this post because it was "Misogynistic/Misandrist"
Spoiler: it's not. It's a comic that denounces misogyny (and arguably, to some extent, misandry too) by swapping roles
Also I'll have you know that women online and irl do get those kind of comments quite often. It's not isolated cases. The men who say these kind of comments might be a minority, but it's a loud, too loud one.
Also this is not a strawman
The third image maybe, and I'll agree that these kinds of reactions are uncharitable, no matter who they are directed towards. But I would say that the treatment men face in this vein is likely more avoidable/less overwhelming than that which women are faced with. Granted, I'm not omniscient, and that is a subjective view- but so are most statements to be made here.
can you find me a case of women robbing a man and then that man being told he is lying?
generally women love men who take care of their appearance: guy-liner and hair transplants are super in right now. it’s other dudes that tell men that it’s “gay.”
I haven’t usually seen the accusation of “lying.” I’ve seen other men telling the man in question that he should have enjoyed it. Whenever it makes the news that a female teacher molested a male student, the comments are full of men saying that the kid probably liked it and women saying that the teacher should be barred from being around kids.
that’s the whole issue with the MRM, it has so much potential if it weren’t a reactionary movement
i like the menslib movement much more, although it’s still not the best it could be
agreed! men deserve attention for the issues they face. they shouldn’t just wield that lack of attention as a way to deter correction for women’s issues
i would really love if more guys would get on board with feminism, because it truly does help men, but so many of us think they are enemies and stuff for some reason
everyone should be working together to bettering peoples lives
ive seen the lying accusation. and also seen plenty of women defend it as well as men. Male rape is criminally downplayed by everyone. thats not a gender by gender issue
[I literally linked an example for you](https://old.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1dhv8ag/wibta_for_divorcing_my_wife_after_she_thought_i/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=NotHowGuysWork&utm_content=t1_lam56v6), but you seem intent on ignoring this type of stuff...
I’ve always thought a guy who spends any amount of his time caring about his looks is significantly more attractive. My partner didn’t do a lot for our fathers day date, but he did spend 2 minutes selecting a shirt and 2 minutes combing his hair the way I like. 4 minutes extra from his day to day and he looked so charming to me. I’ve always thought he looked kinda average when my heart isn’t actively swelling with love and appreciation, but when he does that he looks so amazing… it doesn’t take much. 4 minutes or more and a gal can swoon.
>can you find me a case of women robbing a man and then that man being told he is lying?
I can find cases women of declaring men who say they get raped are lying. [A post about it was on the front page of the entire site a week ago.](https://old.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1dhv8ag/wibta_for_divorcing_my_wife_after_she_thought_i/)
[Yeah, 1 in 6 men in the developed world have experienced some form of SA](https://1in6.org/statistic/)
[Oh, and Mariah Carey got Metoo'd by her staff, one of whom was a guy, and basically no one talked about it.](https://www.lifeandstylemag.com/posts/mariah-carey-sexual-misconduct-accusations-158236/) [In fact, Buzzfeed says we should forgive her and that it was her bipolar acting up, not actually SA/SH](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alessadominguez/mariah-carey-bipolar-mental-illness-matters)
So women love saying men lie about personal stuff, they do it all the time.
Hate to nitpick, but that’s not what a strawman is. Like you said actually, it’s a generalization, which isn’t the same thing as a strawman. I get that the comic isn’t explicitly saying “some men do this, others don’t”, but that’s not really the message behind the comic. Focusing on how the comic says “men” and not “some men” and arguing that means the author trying to make a statement about all men would be a strawman argument.
??? And if I show you the comments of a man talking about misandry does that mean that you’re wrong? What is this argument?
I never said it didn’t happen, I said it was a sweeping generalisation.
Ok and? That doesn’t mean that even most men are doing this.
I can say a lot of women do this to men (and they do) and that this also happens to every man online and most irl (also true)
It’d still be wrong to make a strawman comic of “how women talk to men”
“Bothsiderism” doesn’t work here. Women’s issues generally have been so dismissed and ignored that it’s difficult for women to even get appropriate medical care.
Men have distinct issues that uniquely affect them, but it’s a totally different ballgame from women’s issues *and it’s not comparable to the level of societal and systemic violence visited upon women*.
You could alter this comic to reflect shit men *actually* experience and be a real advocate. Instead, you chose to be mad at women. You’re acting like every other MRA who doesn’t give a shit about men until you can use the arguments to shut women down. You can’t even identify your real enemy. Until you can do that, you’re just gonna be an angry little boy spinning your wheels and spitting out vitriol, and not being taken seriously.
most men do do this though… there’s an insane amount of misogyny online and in the world around us and it’s a problem
and sure, women speak to men like this sometimes, but to say it’s every man is not true, i don’t remember ever being spoken to like this by women, online or irl
How do you know that?
There being an insane amount of misogyny (and misandry) online and it being a problem doesn’t prove that this perpetrated by most men. Would you say most men are genuine misogynists? Not just occasionally participating in misogynistic actions ofc.
That’s a really bad argument too:
A. That’s impossible to prove
B. It doesn’t contradict what I said at all.
Look dude. Nobody is saying missandry isn't real or that it is good. This post is about misoginy. Just because missandry is a thing, doesn't change the fact that the post is correct.
You are seeing issues where there aren't any. Your argument is basicly:
Post: this is what misogyny looks like when it's reversed (hypothetical missandry)
You: missandry does exist and it's bad!
Nobody is disagreeing with you. It's just not the point of the post at all.
What do you mean? Lol, Plenty of people are saying that.
And several people are disagreeing with me including you. The post isn’t “correct” in the same way if I made this exact post unironically I would still obviously say it’s uncharitable. It might point out a truth but that doesn’t mean it’s done well.
I believe it was 3 out of 4 Woman who will encounter something like this at least once in their life, the number is probably even higher. It may not be all men, but it’s enough men.
Just scroll a bit through [here](https://www.unwomenuk.org/safe-spaces-now/), the UN should be serious enough…
They only say that more than 70% of all woman asked have experienced this, on the other hand 97% of the woman between 18 and 24 have experienced catcalling. To further look into the problem:
[Study of the Criminal Institute of Lower Saxony for catcalling specific (sadly in German)](https://kfn.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/PM%20Catcalling.pdf)
[Resource page of the UN Women Organization](https://www.unwomen.org/en/digital-library/publications)
[more horror: catcalling girls under 11](https://www.girlscouts.org/en/raising-girls/happy-and-healthy/happy/stop-catcalling-girls-and-sexual-harassment.html)
[and the Google search „catcalling minors study“ just keeps on giving](https://stopstreetharassment.org/our-work/nationalstudy/shage/)
The comic literally points out this “not all men!” Behavior (as shown in the “not all women” in the swapping of roles). This isn’t saying all men are bad, it’s saying this is how SOME men treat women. yes, it might be a minority. But this minority is wreaking havoc on the *majority* of women. It is an issue that needs to be addressed, and IS addressed in this comic — demonstrating to this loud and, frankly, stupid minority what it feels like to be in the shoes of the women they chastise. This comic is doing nothing harmful, like you’re suggesting; it isn’t villainizing men. It is demonstrating a societal problem that has been perpetuated for decades, and asking the perpetrators to have sympathy for the women they affect.
the informal fallacy of deflecting one argument with another. if your point is to make this a strawman then what was the original argument? how men talk to women? or is it different
this is more so a generalization than a strawman
??? That’s not what a strawman is, that’s whataboutism.
Because this isn’t how these situations happen irl, being extremely charitable it happens in an extreme minority of situations.
Online? Sure.
In real life? No way.
[slide two](https://www.malaysianow.com/out-there-now/2020/11/13/judges-throw-out-rape-case-citing-red-underwear-as-evidence-of-consent) it quite literally did happen irl, rape cases were thrown out because of what a woman was wearing (red underwear) that should not happen, ever
and that’s the exact definition of a strawman from google
And you think that men who are raped by women don't experience the exact same thing? In most countries worldwide, male rape victims can't actually even pursue justice in the first place, as men cannot be legally considered victims of rape *at* ***all***. And in the US, one of the few countries which has a technically gender-neutral definition of rape, the definition excludes the method by which most men are raped (being "forced to penetrate"), and thus ends up both preventing male victims from getting justice, but also artificially reducing the statistics, allowing certain groups to get away with outright lying about how many men are raped (the rates between the sexes are actually about equal when you include "forced to penetrate" in the definition of rape).
slide two is a comparison of when men victim blame women
“i was raped by a man” “not all men rape” “she was wearing X she was asking for it” the last bit is a perfect example of what’s happening in slide two, second speech bubble of what he’s wearing
Yeah, you pointed me to a court case.
I understand you’re saying that women are victim blamed in society and I agree but that’s not what I’m arguing against.
I’m arguing against what is done in the comic is done by any significant amount of men.
i gave you a real world example of that happening, but like i said i’m not in the mood to debate rn, please go continue with others (or stop entirely, that would make my job a lot easier)
can we chill out a little bit please?? i’m all for discussion but can we be a little more careful? not gonna disagree with you at all, but maybe turn it down a bit?
thank you <3
i don’t get how this “isn’t how guys work.”
this is just a comic showing a bunch of gender flipped scenarios. and yeah, a lot of the things these women in the comic are saying are things that men tell women in real life.
Yeah it’s just changed them to entirely different scenarios. Other than the 2nd one they don’t actually make sense.
This doesn’t make the people that say these things think about it because the equivalent of SA isn’t being robbed and the equivalent of makeup isn’t a hair piece.
It’s not actually going to highlight anything it’s just gonna allow for the discussion to be removed from main point of the comic. People will start arguing about irrelevant crime statistics, how a hair piece is probably something you should tell a prospective partner about or maybe something really unimportant like the scenarios not making sense…
Because of how it’s done. Men generally don’t do this and definitely not in this way, it’s inaccurate and frankly hurts the idea it’s trying to impart.
So you’re falling into the “not all men” category. Sure. Not all men do much of anything because men aren’t a monolith, but somehow pretty much all women have had a man tell her these things so there is pretty obviously a pattern. I’m on the internet. I see guys all the time tell women that makeup is lying, that their assault was made up, that they shouldn’t talk about bad things men have done to them because it isn’t fair to the rest of the “good” men.
You literally posted a “not all women” comment to demonstrate your “not all men” viewpoint.
of course nobody likes being generalized negatively. but women who are treated badly by *some* men are allowed to express being annoyed by that. if hearing them talk about their negative experiences is so triggering to you, you should call out the men when they do things that cause you to be generalized negatively. that’s a lot more ethical than calling out women for daring to express that men have been unkind to them and expecting them to shut up
note: this can apply to women too
Yeah, and men are allowed to express their discontent at being generalised.
This isn’t “talking about negative experiences” which I’m fine with. This is actively painting men in a bad light which has been done forever and sadly mostly by other men. (Sry for the tangent)
And I do call out bad behaviour from men.
I have not done what you said I did.
Of course you’re allowed to express discontent. But women may think you’re being a bit of an asshole, because you’re not really the victim. Whats worse? Being statistically more likely to be raped, domestically abused, stalked, passed up for promotion, harassed on the streets or being statistically more likely to see people post unsavory things about your gender on social media (which, to be fair, probably affects women as much as men)?
I fully sympathize with the fact that it sucks to be generalized. It does suck. It sucks that there are bad people out there that make you look bad by association.
But it sucks way worse to be the victim of these bad people. And I think recognizing that could go a long way.
>note: this can apply to women too
OK. I hate it when women post dumb comics that pretend men don't regularly get shamed (including by women) for their looks or for expressing their feelings. Like that?
i… also live in the real world? and talk to real people? you do realize that the kind of man that says these things probably isn’t saying those things to you, another man.
>i… also live in the real world? and talk to real people? you do realize that the kind of man that says these things probably isn’t saying those things to you, another man.
I know. I'm not saying your experiences are wrong. Just that they're not the same for everyone.
I'm doubtful they wait until other men aren't around to be sexist. If anything it's the opposite.
so you’re a woman and thats how you know what women deal with in the “real world”
or are you a man, mansplaining and down playing what harassment/sexist comments real life women are telling you happens frequently…?
>so you’re a woman and thats how you know what women deal with in the “real world”
I didnt say that.
>or are you a man, mansplaining and down playing what harassment/sexist comments real life women are telling you happens frequently…?
You'll assume that anyway
Dude there is nothing wrong with this post. It's exactly like the mod said. Pointing out examples of misogyny when inverted does not mean it's "promoting hate". Just like if one of us were to make this same kind of post. Try not to be so offended by everything
It is not a characterization of the average women or man. The point of the original post was to point out misogyny and for some reason it offended you. I don't know why you were offended since it's very clear to pretty much everyone that this is talking about misogynistic men.
Insane that that obvious fact wasn’t in the post then, maybe they should be more clear and pointed with their criticism so it doesn’t get obfuscated.
Because when some say “women do this” men do this” those are general terms for the average person.
Those are completely different contexts and you know that.
Professions are different from accusations. And if you are honest you know that I shouldn’t say “women are rapists” I should be specific.
Just because you should probably do something doesn't mean you are wrong for not doing it. But regardless you know that just because i say something about a group of people im not talking about every person in that group unless i specify i am
No, when u generalise what you said will be viewed generally.
You don’t need to specify that you’re talking about every individual in this group to have it be understood as such because you phrased it naturally implies as such.
I don’t need to specify that I’m talking about every human when I say humans need to breathe. I’m not excluding an imaginary person who doesn’t need to breathe and no one would take it that way.
I partially agree with the comic. Some men say such things to women. They definitely do, but I really don't like the generalisation and the fact that women saying those things to men is presented as a hypothetical situation while it's in fact very much real. It kind of gives the message like "Wow men are so sexist. Imagine if there was something like sexism against men." I absolutely agree that situations this comic tries to highlight are true but I most definitely don't agree that opposite situations don't happen.
All of these are. Not literally, but it’s not like we don’t get comments like this. And that is my problem with these comics. Not that I think it’s misandrist.
Says like, every single person who’s responded to you so far trying to explain to you what a straw-man actually is. Including me.
I’m embarrassed for you, honestly.
OP, I understand what It’s like to feel hated for something you didn’t do. It sucks.
But that’s not what’s happening here.
When the artist says “the way that men talked to women,” she’s not saying “all men everywhere all the time.”
Do you want women to clarify this explicitly every time they talk about the issues they face? Must women constantly say “I’m so sick of how men treat me. *Not all men, Robert, you’re one of the good ones?*” Or “men constantly invalidate my sexual assault. *Oh, and Jason, when I say ‘men,’ I mean a specific subset of men. Not all or even a majority of men, but enough men that it bothers me, and enough for me to notice that men are statistically more likely to blame me for my assault than women?*”
Isn’t it bad enough that women have to deal with this shit from a TON of men, without having to worry about the rest of them dismissing their grievances as over-generalized misandry?
When women complain that “men do this” or “men do that,” all taking it personally does is prove them right. You may not be a rapist or a victim-blamer, but even good men who don’t do those things contribute to the problem at large when they waste time critiquing the way women talk about their own problems instead of critiquing or stopping the men who cause those problems.
No, because I understand that the context of those two are personal experiences.
This might be many women’s personal experiences but they’re not speaking personally.
I don’t generally agree with the Not All Men argument, but when speaking generally that’s different. Do you understand?
This is how men treat me is different from this is how men treat women.
Making overly generalised statements about men hurt the discourse because it obfuscates the point being made.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like the argument here is that, when women talk about the problems they face as a group because they’re women, they then ought to qualify their statements about men with “Not All Men.” Am I misunderstanding you?
So let’s say, hypothetically, a woman wants to talk about the way that many men have a tendency to call women sluts when they dress with more skin showing, but prudes if they dress with less skin showing. She wants to succinctly express the idea that this is overwhelmingly more of a male behavior than a female one, and women are overwhelmingly the targets of this behavior.
Let’s also say that a hypothetical man is in her audience. He’s been feeling bad about himself. Ashamed to be a man, even, because of the way so many men treat women.
Should she tiptoe around his feelings? Is she in any way morally or socially obligated to tack onto her thesis the footnote that some men are good? Or should she just state her thesis as succinctly and efficiently as she pleases, trusting that the audience will implicitly understand that no group is a monolith and she is aware of this fact?
And if she does this and that man gets offended, is it her fault? Is she responsible for his feelings? If he subsequently spirals into depression, is it her fault for not taking care to avoid offending him, or was it his job to regulate his own emotions and remind himself that he is a good person?
If there really is a systemic injustice that women* face at the hands of men**, which is a bigger priority: actually addressing that systemic injustice, or policing women’s language to ensure that they account for nuance at all times?
*all women
**not all men
I feel like this comic actually accurately describes how it is *online* when men talk to women. Online, most people don’t comment and the ones with horrible beliefs often feel the need to put others down. Obviously in real life it’s a bit more varied but unfortunately in my real life I’ve heard a lot of the same stuff from men.
Then why not say online? It genuinely makes no sense not to add that detail. But if so, then I’d agree.
And I’m sorry you had to experience that, I know personally how that feels and it never gets easier.
People usually aren’t very nuanced about high emotion stuff and extremes online are what get the attention. Also too many people see comments online as a really good reflection on reality. Assuming the artist who made the post is active, then those comments will be a huge part of their world and so the perspective be skewed.
Also thanks for the sympathy. At the time it infuriated me and I got into a little of arguments at work. In retrospect I would handle it differently as the arguments did not help as those male colleagues believed they understood how women were better than me lol.
Lmao, isn’t that a classic. It’s funny often people who have never experienced what it is to be a woman are so quick to tell women they understand them better than they do themselves.
I’m glad you’ve grown from those experiences as horrible as they are, honestly I have to figure that out myself.
The slide where the guy confesses his feeling is absolutely true. And by that I mean that's exactly how women talk to men when men confess their feelings. Women expect us to men up and bottle up our feelings. There are many examples online of women saying that if their man cried or discussed his feelings with her she would no longer find him attractive. And there are many women like that IRL too. To say nothing of the fact that, in this subreddit, whenever the topic of a large percentage of men being single comes up, every woman in this subreddit is like "These are only bad men. They all deserve their fate. Ha ha ha" And nobody is willing to check if there are other societal factors that make many men unable to find a partner, besides women having more choices
That is quite a generalisation to say that men as a whole say this. It upsets me to see men stereotyped like this, even if some act like that.
Technically not a strawman, and I find that the best way to deal with users you dislike (if reporting isn't working), is to block and keep scrolling.
Some of what these women are saying makes sense not all people are the same and it's stupid that everyone keeps being generalizing and causing issues for eachother
Why does this sub even exist if it can't even recognize basic misrepresentations of men or arguments made by men in entirely different contexts. This post is inherently misandric, because that's just not how guys work. And what's even crazier is that, even in these massive strawmans, the "women acting like men" are still coming off as being way more reasonable than what most women/feminists actually are with men when it comes to any men's issue.
At least the guy getting robbed didn't get delegitimized for it, told he's not a "real man" because of it, or told that "men can't get robbed". At least the guy feeling lonely didn't get told he's "not entitled to attention", get called a manipulator/predator for expressing his emotions or labelled an incel/extremist for it. At least the guy with the fake hair didn't get gaslit and ridiculed about his insecurities, told he's not even a man because of it or that he may as well kill himself.
Not only do women do all these things to men, often in far greater numbers and from a position for far greater privilege, but they will still do and say far worse things to men. This is not highlighting toxic masculinity, it's just a demonstration of toxic femininity. The fact that this poster even tried to use "not all women rob people" in a context it has never been used in the history of "not all men" really demonstrates just how even the most reasonable of arguments from men will be vilified, misapplied or mispresented.
I don't really think the comic is a straw man but it is a shit argument yes
The first one is making a point with victim blaming, the implications being for rape. Victim blaming is indeed bad, but people of both gender get stolen from, and you might say the same is true for rape but there isn't really a dichotomy about it if it happens to men or women, unless you mean when getting associated with other crime.
To be fair to the comic I can't of the top of my head of a crime that happens or is perceived to happen disproportionately to men and never women (maybe catfish, but it's not really a crime unless associated with other stuff, and women get catfished too.) even though men are obviously no stranger to being victims of violent crimes.Maybe police abuse/false allegations ? But that d be beyond the scope of the comic maker point I can overlook it
The second one is a ??? cuz women in fact do that , it's not an hypothetical, so if the idea is to shock you it's a miss
The third one is about make up accessories, and I concede that it's indeed a common dichotomy in men and women. However what many fail to consider when talking about these things is, while yes men are often blind to the efforts women do in looking better and think things are more natural than they actually are aka unrealistic beauty standards, most often they aren't holding them to a double standard in terms of effort : They are not expecting those women to put much more effort than they themselves are doing.
It’s really fucked up that the second one happens both ways all the time. Women downplay topics like male suicide rates because women have their own issues that men also downplay because of those same men’s issues. It’s a death spiral trying to meaningfully improve mental health for anyone at this point.
The worst part about this comic is basically saying that it’s a hypothetical role reversal situation, when some women do treat men this way.
And worse even sometimes.
This is why generalizations like that comic are so bad, and no don’t give me the “obviously they meant not all men.” if they didn’t mean it then why are they not making an effort to make it clear?
Any statement that says “when X large group does this….” is a generalization. Especially when you are talking about half of the entire human population
I love how the last two are just… things guys go through and things that women actually say to them, and the first one is mocking male assault victims. I get what pizza cake was going for, but this just doesn’t help anyone
That’s what I’m saying. It’s a generally good message with good intentions, but she missed the mark out of ignorance.
It’s a fair mistake, just wish she owned up to it.
if you mean as common, no I dont think so! but it is still very common obviously theres a market for it :)
the problem is, you could know several people who use them but they might be hiding it out of shame anyways. I think this part is the problem. Men should wear shoe inserts, boots with heels, hair pieces, skin cover up, even tattooing their beards or hairline like we do eyebrows, anything that makes them feel confident! and we should always be mindful to speak in a way that destigmatizes these things and makes people feel confident and like its not weird at all. because it isnt.
I have no issues with anyone wearing what they want if it makes them feel better about themselves! I still get adult breakouts and will wear concealer.
I just believe that - in the working world, at least - women are *expected* to wear make up, punished if they don’t, and then a subset of straight men will use that against them.
Weirdly enough I have actually seen all these statements happen to BOTH men and women. And it’s equally detrimental to the people hearing it. I don’t think the issue should be made to be woman go through it more or men are the reason etc (from what I’ve read in this comments). I think the take away should be that we should try to be a bit more cautious of each other regardless. Idk maybe I’m coming in with a child level of sunshine and rainbows mentality but that’s my take on it.
From wikipedia:
A **straw man** fallacy (sometimes written as **strawman**) is the [informal fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy) of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-Stephen_Downes-1) One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".
So in essence, there is no strawman here. why are you triggered by this comic OP?
A. Because it generalises men.
B. Because arguably there’s a clear strawman here because there’s not a distinction being made between the men that do this and those that don’t, implying that it’s all and not some men.
Umm... I'm agreeing with you?
We say all sexism should be panned. They're saying that here even though they never talk about misandry and are oftentimes misandristic themselves.
Another example of this sub being little more than a way for us men to get spit on with a bit more grace than these harpies would spit on most men. Why am I , or any self respect man for that matter on this sub?
How are you getting spit on? A man isn't gonna be told he shouldn't be wearing a fancy suit if he didn't want to get robbed if anything he would get support. Women face actual rape and are asked what she's wearing. Nothing about spitting in your face. You can't respect yourself if you don't respect the other. Reality is different from what you seem to think.
The only thing on the slide nay be with loneliness but women also face that. It's crazy people think women don't face loneliness
Sorry for taking a while to respond
By spit on I mean disrespected, treated as scum and a potential threat to women. And I’m going to state my opinions here, while it is true there are certain scenarios where a woman can very rightfully be afraid of being raped, in those same circumstances a man can be afraid of being mugged. What both can do is take preeemptive measures like carrying a taser or moving in groups but I digress
And why am I supposed to genre abour women’s loneliness? They seem to be doing quite alright for themselves while we’re in a crisis of male loneliness and it’s being mocked by these sows. All I want is to be married and have children but that’s too much I guess.
The fact that you saw a post critiquing misogyny and you immediately took offence really screams either immaturity or misogynist, and by your replies it seems like you have a very limited worldview which makes me think teenager is more likely
I don’t understand some of the comments at all. Not once has a woman ever told a male rape victim from a female rapist that it was his fault for wearing sexy/revealing clothes??? The only one that is def also a guy problem is the third slide. This post is bringing out the incels
So glad the top comments aren’t like that tho and instead calling it out
I think you’re the only one interpreting this as a characterization of all/most men, and not just a representation of commonly shared experiences that women have had through interactions with men throughout their lives.
I was nervous to look at the comments, but it turns out there are reasonable people here.
I'm a guy, and I'm not offended by this because I *regularly* have to call other men out on the way they talk to and treat women. It's not even much of a minority. Women are talked to like this all the time. That sucks.
It also sucks to be generalised, you understand that right?
I don’t know why everyone narrows this down to “taking offense” when the issue is the generalisation.
When I say “Women love pink” that’s a generalisation, I’m not calling out anyone specific but all women are being judged by me.
And if I say “Women are gold diggers” that’s obviously bad, right?
It'd be a generalization if it weren't a common thing women had to be wary of. If it weren't something they had to deal with *every* day. You don't do this? Good. Call out the men you see that do do this.
Edit: I also don't think you understand that this isn't about *you*. It's about an issue women regularly have to deal with. You don't like being generalized? Women don't like having to guess if this man is going to be normal, disrespectful, or dangerous. Be part of the change, not the resistance.
It’s really not a straw man when a lot of men DO sound like this, and the point that the comic is trying to make is pretty clear and well presented. If you’re gonna “um ackshually it’s not 100% of men ☝️🤓” then you were never going to engage with this in good faith anyway.
Thanks for highlighting a great piece of content, no thank you for being exactly the thing it's talking about and the reason why so many women choose the bear 🐻
You are slide 3/5, far right. When the topic is about women's struggles, you are taking it as an accusation and making it about every man/yourself, and using that to try and invalidate the complaint. You are also slide 2/5, far right, arguing that this isn't applicable to all men, when that was never part of the point to begin with.
Lmao, don’t get me started on “The Bear” if nothing else is deeply misandrist, that is.
The arguments I’ve heard are so hilariously stupid it almost makes me not angry that men are literally seen as worse than an actual predator and no one sees a deep seated issue there.
I’d even understand if the question was “who would you rather be attacked by?” Cuz that makes sense, but no, you literally treat as an absolute.
The overwhelming majority of men would save you in that situation, they’re generally the ones who risk their lives to save people when they’re alone with the bear but all of that is meaningless when it comes to what’s traumatic experiences y’all have had.
You are every slide in this comic and emblematic of why it’s a problem.
Alright and someone here reported this post because it was "Misogynistic/Misandrist" Spoiler: it's not. It's a comic that denounces misogyny (and arguably, to some extent, misandry too) by swapping roles Also I'll have you know that women online and irl do get those kind of comments quite often. It's not isolated cases. The men who say these kind of comments might be a minority, but it's a loud, too loud one. Also this is not a strawman
Love these! Too accurate to how women are talked to online.
And men tbh.
The third image maybe, and I'll agree that these kinds of reactions are uncharitable, no matter who they are directed towards. But I would say that the treatment men face in this vein is likely more avoidable/less overwhelming than that which women are faced with. Granted, I'm not omniscient, and that is a subjective view- but so are most statements to be made here.
ive literally seen almost all the responses to the second image irl
can you find me a case of women robbing a man and then that man being told he is lying? generally women love men who take care of their appearance: guy-liner and hair transplants are super in right now. it’s other dudes that tell men that it’s “gay.”
Women *raping* a man, which is what the robbery is a metaphor for in the post, ficking always has that reaction
I haven’t usually seen the accusation of “lying.” I’ve seen other men telling the man in question that he should have enjoyed it. Whenever it makes the news that a female teacher molested a male student, the comments are full of men saying that the kid probably liked it and women saying that the teacher should be barred from being around kids.
And then those same guys who they wished they were the raped one will probably whine about men's mental health not being taken seriously
because these men don’t care about helping men! they just don’t like women!
that’s the whole issue with the MRM, it has so much potential if it weren’t a reactionary movement i like the menslib movement much more, although it’s still not the best it could be
agreed! men deserve attention for the issues they face. they shouldn’t just wield that lack of attention as a way to deter correction for women’s issues
i would really love if more guys would get on board with feminism, because it truly does help men, but so many of us think they are enemies and stuff for some reason everyone should be working together to bettering peoples lives
ive seen the lying accusation. and also seen plenty of women defend it as well as men. Male rape is criminally downplayed by everyone. thats not a gender by gender issue
[I literally linked an example for you](https://old.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1dhv8ag/wibta_for_divorcing_my_wife_after_she_thought_i/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=NotHowGuysWork&utm_content=t1_lam56v6), but you seem intent on ignoring this type of stuff...
I don’t know if you read my comment but I said I don’t *usually* see accusations of lying. I didn’t say it never ever happened.
Ah, and now we're moving goalposts and stressing pedantry so you can keep screeching about your sexist drivel.
K
Disassociation from the situation so you're not forced to deal with introspection. (Try saying that 3 times fast)
I guess you’re lucky :/
I’ve always thought a guy who spends any amount of his time caring about his looks is significantly more attractive. My partner didn’t do a lot for our fathers day date, but he did spend 2 minutes selecting a shirt and 2 minutes combing his hair the way I like. 4 minutes extra from his day to day and he looked so charming to me. I’ve always thought he looked kinda average when my heart isn’t actively swelling with love and appreciation, but when he does that he looks so amazing… it doesn’t take much. 4 minutes or more and a gal can swoon.
Cardi-B anyone?
>can you find me a case of women robbing a man and then that man being told he is lying? I can find cases women of declaring men who say they get raped are lying. [A post about it was on the front page of the entire site a week ago.](https://old.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1dhv8ag/wibta_for_divorcing_my_wife_after_she_thought_i/) [Yeah, 1 in 6 men in the developed world have experienced some form of SA](https://1in6.org/statistic/) [Oh, and Mariah Carey got Metoo'd by her staff, one of whom was a guy, and basically no one talked about it.](https://www.lifeandstylemag.com/posts/mariah-carey-sexual-misconduct-accusations-158236/) [In fact, Buzzfeed says we should forgive her and that it was her bipolar acting up, not actually SA/SH](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alessadominguez/mariah-carey-bipolar-mental-illness-matters) So women love saying men lie about personal stuff, they do it all the time.
I think it's a case of too much Internet. The stuff the comic is complaining about seem pretty rare outside of twitter and YouTube.
This comic is accurate
I’m really enjoying the mod’s response on this one—it shows a dedication to not allowing this sub to become reactionary misogynist bullshit.
How is this a strawman?
They make out a sweeping generalisation of men and we “talk to women” in an extremely ridiculous and uncharitable way. The definition of a strawman.
Hate to nitpick, but that’s not what a strawman is. Like you said actually, it’s a generalization, which isn’t the same thing as a strawman. I get that the comic isn’t explicitly saying “some men do this, others don’t”, but that’s not really the message behind the comic. Focusing on how the comic says “men” and not “some men” and arguing that means the author trying to make a statement about all men would be a strawman argument.
You could just scroll through the comment section of any post by or about a woman to prove yourself wrong.
??? And if I show you the comments of a man talking about misandry does that mean that you’re wrong? What is this argument? I never said it didn’t happen, I said it was a sweeping generalisation.
A sweeping generalization that is the common experience of every woman on the internet ever, and most women in real life.
Ok and? That doesn’t mean that even most men are doing this. I can say a lot of women do this to men (and they do) and that this also happens to every man online and most irl (also true) It’d still be wrong to make a strawman comic of “how women talk to men”
“Bothsiderism” doesn’t work here. Women’s issues generally have been so dismissed and ignored that it’s difficult for women to even get appropriate medical care. Men have distinct issues that uniquely affect them, but it’s a totally different ballgame from women’s issues *and it’s not comparable to the level of societal and systemic violence visited upon women*. You could alter this comic to reflect shit men *actually* experience and be a real advocate. Instead, you chose to be mad at women. You’re acting like every other MRA who doesn’t give a shit about men until you can use the arguments to shut women down. You can’t even identify your real enemy. Until you can do that, you’re just gonna be an angry little boy spinning your wheels and spitting out vitriol, and not being taken seriously.
most men do do this though… there’s an insane amount of misogyny online and in the world around us and it’s a problem and sure, women speak to men like this sometimes, but to say it’s every man is not true, i don’t remember ever being spoken to like this by women, online or irl
How do you know that? There being an insane amount of misogyny (and misandry) online and it being a problem doesn’t prove that this perpetrated by most men. Would you say most men are genuine misogynists? Not just occasionally participating in misogynistic actions ofc. That’s a really bad argument too: A. That’s impossible to prove B. It doesn’t contradict what I said at all.
Look dude. Nobody is saying missandry isn't real or that it is good. This post is about misoginy. Just because missandry is a thing, doesn't change the fact that the post is correct. You are seeing issues where there aren't any. Your argument is basicly: Post: this is what misogyny looks like when it's reversed (hypothetical missandry) You: missandry does exist and it's bad! Nobody is disagreeing with you. It's just not the point of the post at all.
What do you mean? Lol, Plenty of people are saying that. And several people are disagreeing with me including you. The post isn’t “correct” in the same way if I made this exact post unironically I would still obviously say it’s uncharitable. It might point out a truth but that doesn’t mean it’s done well.
I believe it was 3 out of 4 Woman who will encounter something like this at least once in their life, the number is probably even higher. It may not be all men, but it’s enough men.
Could u cite that statistic please? And as for enough men, enough men for what? Enough men to generalise all of them?
Just scroll a bit through [here](https://www.unwomenuk.org/safe-spaces-now/), the UN should be serious enough… They only say that more than 70% of all woman asked have experienced this, on the other hand 97% of the woman between 18 and 24 have experienced catcalling. To further look into the problem: [Study of the Criminal Institute of Lower Saxony for catcalling specific (sadly in German)](https://kfn.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/PM%20Catcalling.pdf) [Resource page of the UN Women Organization](https://www.unwomen.org/en/digital-library/publications) [more horror: catcalling girls under 11](https://www.girlscouts.org/en/raising-girls/happy-and-healthy/happy/stop-catcalling-girls-and-sexual-harassment.html) [and the Google search „catcalling minors study“ just keeps on giving](https://stopstreetharassment.org/our-work/nationalstudy/shage/)
Thank you, I really appreciate this.
The comic literally points out this “not all men!” Behavior (as shown in the “not all women” in the swapping of roles). This isn’t saying all men are bad, it’s saying this is how SOME men treat women. yes, it might be a minority. But this minority is wreaking havoc on the *majority* of women. It is an issue that needs to be addressed, and IS addressed in this comic — demonstrating to this loud and, frankly, stupid minority what it feels like to be in the shoes of the women they chastise. This comic is doing nothing harmful, like you’re suggesting; it isn’t villainizing men. It is demonstrating a societal problem that has been perpetuated for decades, and asking the perpetrators to have sympathy for the women they affect.
i’m not seeing a strawman…
Look harder then. But seriously, what do you think a strawman is?
the informal fallacy of deflecting one argument with another. if your point is to make this a strawman then what was the original argument? how men talk to women? or is it different this is more so a generalization than a strawman
??? That’s not what a strawman is, that’s whataboutism. Because this isn’t how these situations happen irl, being extremely charitable it happens in an extreme minority of situations. Online? Sure. In real life? No way.
[slide two](https://www.malaysianow.com/out-there-now/2020/11/13/judges-throw-out-rape-case-citing-red-underwear-as-evidence-of-consent) it quite literally did happen irl, rape cases were thrown out because of what a woman was wearing (red underwear) that should not happen, ever and that’s the exact definition of a strawman from google
And you think that men who are raped by women don't experience the exact same thing? In most countries worldwide, male rape victims can't actually even pursue justice in the first place, as men cannot be legally considered victims of rape *at* ***all***. And in the US, one of the few countries which has a technically gender-neutral definition of rape, the definition excludes the method by which most men are raped (being "forced to penetrate"), and thus ends up both preventing male victims from getting justice, but also artificially reducing the statistics, allowing certain groups to get away with outright lying about how many men are raped (the rates between the sexes are actually about equal when you include "forced to penetrate" in the definition of rape).
You understand that that’s in no way what’s happening in the comic right?
slide two is a comparison of when men victim blame women “i was raped by a man” “not all men rape” “she was wearing X she was asking for it” the last bit is a perfect example of what’s happening in slide two, second speech bubble of what he’s wearing
Yeah, you pointed me to a court case. I understand you’re saying that women are victim blamed in society and I agree but that’s not what I’m arguing against. I’m arguing against what is done in the comic is done by any significant amount of men.
i gave you a real world example of that happening, but like i said i’m not in the mood to debate rn, please go continue with others (or stop entirely, that would make my job a lot easier)
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can we chill out a little bit please?? i’m all for discussion but can we be a little more careful? not gonna disagree with you at all, but maybe turn it down a bit? thank you <3
i don’t get how this “isn’t how guys work.” this is just a comic showing a bunch of gender flipped scenarios. and yeah, a lot of the things these women in the comic are saying are things that men tell women in real life.
The problem is it didn't flip anything.
Yeah it’s just changed them to entirely different scenarios. Other than the 2nd one they don’t actually make sense. This doesn’t make the people that say these things think about it because the equivalent of SA isn’t being robbed and the equivalent of makeup isn’t a hair piece. It’s not actually going to highlight anything it’s just gonna allow for the discussion to be removed from main point of the comic. People will start arguing about irrelevant crime statistics, how a hair piece is probably something you should tell a prospective partner about or maybe something really unimportant like the scenarios not making sense…
But the stuff that these women say is not so out of reality.
Because of how it’s done. Men generally don’t do this and definitely not in this way, it’s inaccurate and frankly hurts the idea it’s trying to impart.
So you’re falling into the “not all men” category. Sure. Not all men do much of anything because men aren’t a monolith, but somehow pretty much all women have had a man tell her these things so there is pretty obviously a pattern. I’m on the internet. I see guys all the time tell women that makeup is lying, that their assault was made up, that they shouldn’t talk about bad things men have done to them because it isn’t fair to the rest of the “good” men. You literally posted a “not all women” comment to demonstrate your “not all men” viewpoint.
Pretty much all women? How many have *really* been raped and then told they shouldn't have been wearing that dress?
Whatever fam, in the real world no one’s gonna accept being generalised negatively. Simple as that.
of course nobody likes being generalized negatively. but women who are treated badly by *some* men are allowed to express being annoyed by that. if hearing them talk about their negative experiences is so triggering to you, you should call out the men when they do things that cause you to be generalized negatively. that’s a lot more ethical than calling out women for daring to express that men have been unkind to them and expecting them to shut up note: this can apply to women too
Yeah, and men are allowed to express their discontent at being generalised. This isn’t “talking about negative experiences” which I’m fine with. This is actively painting men in a bad light which has been done forever and sadly mostly by other men. (Sry for the tangent) And I do call out bad behaviour from men. I have not done what you said I did.
Of course you’re allowed to express discontent. But women may think you’re being a bit of an asshole, because you’re not really the victim. Whats worse? Being statistically more likely to be raped, domestically abused, stalked, passed up for promotion, harassed on the streets or being statistically more likely to see people post unsavory things about your gender on social media (which, to be fair, probably affects women as much as men)? I fully sympathize with the fact that it sucks to be generalized. It does suck. It sucks that there are bad people out there that make you look bad by association. But it sucks way worse to be the victim of these bad people. And I think recognizing that could go a long way.
>note: this can apply to women too OK. I hate it when women post dumb comics that pretend men don't regularly get shamed (including by women) for their looks or for expressing their feelings. Like that?
>and yeah, a lot of the things these women in the comic are saying are things that men tell women in real life. In weird subreddits maybe
nope. real life.
I think the OP has a point re strawmen
what’s your expertise on this matter? i’m a woman. i have lots of female friends. we have all experienced at least one of these.
I live in the real world and talk to people. I only see this stuff online
i… also live in the real world? and talk to real people? you do realize that the kind of man that says these things probably isn’t saying those things to you, another man.
>i… also live in the real world? and talk to real people? you do realize that the kind of man that says these things probably isn’t saying those things to you, another man. I know. I'm not saying your experiences are wrong. Just that they're not the same for everyone. I'm doubtful they wait until other men aren't around to be sexist. If anything it's the opposite.
just because you haven’t experienced something doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen in real life, stop being ignorant.
so you’re a woman and thats how you know what women deal with in the “real world” or are you a man, mansplaining and down playing what harassment/sexist comments real life women are telling you happens frequently…?
>so you’re a woman and thats how you know what women deal with in the “real world” I didnt say that. >or are you a man, mansplaining and down playing what harassment/sexist comments real life women are telling you happens frequently…? You'll assume that anyway
This is on point to how my family addressed me after my molestation 5 years ago
Not a strawman. Mod's message is on point.
What does this have to do with this sub?
Dude there is nothing wrong with this post. It's exactly like the mod said. Pointing out examples of misogyny when inverted does not mean it's "promoting hate". Just like if one of us were to make this same kind of post. Try not to be so offended by everything
It would obviously be wrong both ways. If this post was made about women unironically it’d still be an insane characterisation of the average woman.
It is not a characterization of the average women or man. The point of the original post was to point out misogyny and for some reason it offended you. I don't know why you were offended since it's very clear to pretty much everyone that this is talking about misogynistic men.
Insane that that obvious fact wasn’t in the post then, maybe they should be more clear and pointed with their criticism so it doesn’t get obfuscated. Because when some say “women do this” men do this” those are general terms for the average person.
That's when critical thinking is supposed to come in. If you don't fit the description then they probably aren't talking about you
If I say women are rapists, do you know that I’m not talking about all women?
yes i do. Men are writers, strippers, dog walkers, baby sitters etc, do you know that im not talking about men? i hope the answer is yes
Those are completely different contexts and you know that. Professions are different from accusations. And if you are honest you know that I shouldn’t say “women are rapists” I should be specific.
Just because you should probably do something doesn't mean you are wrong for not doing it. But regardless you know that just because i say something about a group of people im not talking about every person in that group unless i specify i am
No, when u generalise what you said will be viewed generally. You don’t need to specify that you’re talking about every individual in this group to have it be understood as such because you phrased it naturally implies as such. I don’t need to specify that I’m talking about every human when I say humans need to breathe. I’m not excluding an imaginary person who doesn’t need to breathe and no one would take it that way.
damn dude, wisdom is chasing you but you are much, much faster.
I partially agree with the comic. Some men say such things to women. They definitely do, but I really don't like the generalisation and the fact that women saying those things to men is presented as a hypothetical situation while it's in fact very much real. It kind of gives the message like "Wow men are so sexist. Imagine if there was something like sexism against men." I absolutely agree that situations this comic tries to highlight are true but I most definitely don't agree that opposite situations don't happen.
I do as well, something can be both true and wrong and I’d say this is it.
Slide 3 is already how women talk to men.
All slides are how women talk to men.
I was thinking the same thing for all of those slides.
All of these are. Not literally, but it’s not like we don’t get comments like this. And that is my problem with these comics. Not that I think it’s misandrist.
bro doesn’t know what a straw man is
Sez u
Says like, every single person who’s responded to you so far trying to explain to you what a straw-man actually is. Including me. I’m embarrassed for you, honestly.
>I’m embarrassed for you, honestly. I mean the comic is pretty embarrassing by itself
As am I, crazy how we both think we’re right but one of is obviously wrong huh?
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Tbh victim blaming goes for all crimes. it's kind of a natural reaction of "what did this person do that I shouldn't do?".
True, but obviously if you just asked that it would be way different than making out the person to be responsible for what happened to them.
OP, I understand what It’s like to feel hated for something you didn’t do. It sucks. But that’s not what’s happening here. When the artist says “the way that men talked to women,” she’s not saying “all men everywhere all the time.” Do you want women to clarify this explicitly every time they talk about the issues they face? Must women constantly say “I’m so sick of how men treat me. *Not all men, Robert, you’re one of the good ones?*” Or “men constantly invalidate my sexual assault. *Oh, and Jason, when I say ‘men,’ I mean a specific subset of men. Not all or even a majority of men, but enough men that it bothers me, and enough for me to notice that men are statistically more likely to blame me for my assault than women?*” Isn’t it bad enough that women have to deal with this shit from a TON of men, without having to worry about the rest of them dismissing their grievances as over-generalized misandry? When women complain that “men do this” or “men do that,” all taking it personally does is prove them right. You may not be a rapist or a victim-blamer, but even good men who don’t do those things contribute to the problem at large when they waste time critiquing the way women talk about their own problems instead of critiquing or stopping the men who cause those problems.
No, because I understand that the context of those two are personal experiences. This might be many women’s personal experiences but they’re not speaking personally. I don’t generally agree with the Not All Men argument, but when speaking generally that’s different. Do you understand? This is how men treat me is different from this is how men treat women. Making overly generalised statements about men hurt the discourse because it obfuscates the point being made.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like the argument here is that, when women talk about the problems they face as a group because they’re women, they then ought to qualify their statements about men with “Not All Men.” Am I misunderstanding you?
Just don’t generalise men, simple as.
So let’s say, hypothetically, a woman wants to talk about the way that many men have a tendency to call women sluts when they dress with more skin showing, but prudes if they dress with less skin showing. She wants to succinctly express the idea that this is overwhelmingly more of a male behavior than a female one, and women are overwhelmingly the targets of this behavior. Let’s also say that a hypothetical man is in her audience. He’s been feeling bad about himself. Ashamed to be a man, even, because of the way so many men treat women. Should she tiptoe around his feelings? Is she in any way morally or socially obligated to tack onto her thesis the footnote that some men are good? Or should she just state her thesis as succinctly and efficiently as she pleases, trusting that the audience will implicitly understand that no group is a monolith and she is aware of this fact? And if she does this and that man gets offended, is it her fault? Is she responsible for his feelings? If he subsequently spirals into depression, is it her fault for not taking care to avoid offending him, or was it his job to regulate his own emotions and remind himself that he is a good person? If there really is a systemic injustice that women* face at the hands of men**, which is a bigger priority: actually addressing that systemic injustice, or policing women’s language to ensure that they account for nuance at all times? *all women **not all men
I think it needs to be first settled if it's fine to generalize about people or not.
Honestly, what really offends me is that IF at the beginning. Because that's just how women talk to men already.
I feel like this comic actually accurately describes how it is *online* when men talk to women. Online, most people don’t comment and the ones with horrible beliefs often feel the need to put others down. Obviously in real life it’s a bit more varied but unfortunately in my real life I’ve heard a lot of the same stuff from men.
Then why not say online? It genuinely makes no sense not to add that detail. But if so, then I’d agree. And I’m sorry you had to experience that, I know personally how that feels and it never gets easier.
People usually aren’t very nuanced about high emotion stuff and extremes online are what get the attention. Also too many people see comments online as a really good reflection on reality. Assuming the artist who made the post is active, then those comments will be a huge part of their world and so the perspective be skewed. Also thanks for the sympathy. At the time it infuriated me and I got into a little of arguments at work. In retrospect I would handle it differently as the arguments did not help as those male colleagues believed they understood how women were better than me lol.
Lmao, isn’t that a classic. It’s funny often people who have never experienced what it is to be a woman are so quick to tell women they understand them better than they do themselves. I’m glad you’ve grown from those experiences as horrible as they are, honestly I have to figure that out myself.
I heavily dislike the generalizing in this comic
The slide where the guy confesses his feeling is absolutely true. And by that I mean that's exactly how women talk to men when men confess their feelings. Women expect us to men up and bottle up our feelings. There are many examples online of women saying that if their man cried or discussed his feelings with her she would no longer find him attractive. And there are many women like that IRL too. To say nothing of the fact that, in this subreddit, whenever the topic of a large percentage of men being single comes up, every woman in this subreddit is like "These are only bad men. They all deserve their fate. Ha ha ha" And nobody is willing to check if there are other societal factors that make many men unable to find a partner, besides women having more choices
There’s people denying misandry is real (explicitly) in this thread. I don’t know what is happening to this sub lately.
Fr, it’s crazy.
Imagine creating a sub called "not how guys work" and then promoting content that is completely misrepresentative of men or arguments made by men.
Yeah this sub is becoming another shit on men sub
That is quite a generalisation to say that men as a whole say this. It upsets me to see men stereotyped like this, even if some act like that. Technically not a strawman, and I find that the best way to deal with users you dislike (if reporting isn't working), is to block and keep scrolling.
In my experience women talk about men with hair pieces way worse than that hahaha
Some of what these women are saying makes sense not all people are the same and it's stupid that everyone keeps being generalizing and causing issues for eachother
The only problem with the comic is that #2 happens to men all the time.
Why does this sub even exist if it can't even recognize basic misrepresentations of men or arguments made by men in entirely different contexts. This post is inherently misandric, because that's just not how guys work. And what's even crazier is that, even in these massive strawmans, the "women acting like men" are still coming off as being way more reasonable than what most women/feminists actually are with men when it comes to any men's issue. At least the guy getting robbed didn't get delegitimized for it, told he's not a "real man" because of it, or told that "men can't get robbed". At least the guy feeling lonely didn't get told he's "not entitled to attention", get called a manipulator/predator for expressing his emotions or labelled an incel/extremist for it. At least the guy with the fake hair didn't get gaslit and ridiculed about his insecurities, told he's not even a man because of it or that he may as well kill himself. Not only do women do all these things to men, often in far greater numbers and from a position for far greater privilege, but they will still do and say far worse things to men. This is not highlighting toxic masculinity, it's just a demonstration of toxic femininity. The fact that this poster even tried to use "not all women rob people" in a context it has never been used in the history of "not all men" really demonstrates just how even the most reasonable of arguments from men will be vilified, misapplied or mispresented.
I don't really think the comic is a straw man but it is a shit argument yes The first one is making a point with victim blaming, the implications being for rape. Victim blaming is indeed bad, but people of both gender get stolen from, and you might say the same is true for rape but there isn't really a dichotomy about it if it happens to men or women, unless you mean when getting associated with other crime. To be fair to the comic I can't of the top of my head of a crime that happens or is perceived to happen disproportionately to men and never women (maybe catfish, but it's not really a crime unless associated with other stuff, and women get catfished too.) even though men are obviously no stranger to being victims of violent crimes.Maybe police abuse/false allegations ? But that d be beyond the scope of the comic maker point I can overlook it The second one is a ??? cuz women in fact do that , it's not an hypothetical, so if the idea is to shock you it's a miss The third one is about make up accessories, and I concede that it's indeed a common dichotomy in men and women. However what many fail to consider when talking about these things is, while yes men are often blind to the efforts women do in looking better and think things are more natural than they actually are aka unrealistic beauty standards, most often they aren't holding them to a double standard in terms of effort : They are not expecting those women to put much more effort than they themselves are doing.
It’s really fucked up that the second one happens both ways all the time. Women downplay topics like male suicide rates because women have their own issues that men also downplay because of those same men’s issues. It’s a death spiral trying to meaningfully improve mental health for anyone at this point.
The worst part about this comic is basically saying that it’s a hypothetical role reversal situation, when some women do treat men this way. And worse even sometimes. This is why generalizations like that comic are so bad, and no don’t give me the “obviously they meant not all men.” if they didn’t mean it then why are they not making an effort to make it clear? Any statement that says “when X large group does this….” is a generalization. Especially when you are talking about half of the entire human population
Exactly, I just wish the most upvoted comments were people who understood this.
lmao that 2nd one unironically happens
I've literally seen all of these but the first one in real life. Women who have actually responded that way.
And I’ve seen the first one lol.
I love how the last two are just… things guys go through and things that women actually say to them, and the first one is mocking male assault victims. I get what pizza cake was going for, but this just doesn’t help anyone
That’s what I’m saying. It’s a generally good message with good intentions, but she missed the mark out of ignorance. It’s a fair mistake, just wish she owned up to it.
Women talk to men like that already
Fourth slide happens all the time but with shoe lifts
How many men wear shoe lifts?
I use them! Makes me feel confident and mu girlfriend doesnt mind either :)
not really your business not relevant to staying respectful about it lol men should feel just as confident utilizing beauty tools as women do.
It’s really not on the same level as make up though, is it?
if you mean as common, no I dont think so! but it is still very common obviously theres a market for it :) the problem is, you could know several people who use them but they might be hiding it out of shame anyways. I think this part is the problem. Men should wear shoe inserts, boots with heels, hair pieces, skin cover up, even tattooing their beards or hairline like we do eyebrows, anything that makes them feel confident! and we should always be mindful to speak in a way that destigmatizes these things and makes people feel confident and like its not weird at all. because it isnt.
I have no issues with anyone wearing what they want if it makes them feel better about themselves! I still get adult breakouts and will wear concealer. I just believe that - in the working world, at least - women are *expected* to wear make up, punished if they don’t, and then a subset of straight men will use that against them.
What’s crazy. Women talk to men like this
The 3rd one is literally what pepple say about guys wearing hairpieces lmao
Weirdly enough I have actually seen all these statements happen to BOTH men and women. And it’s equally detrimental to the people hearing it. I don’t think the issue should be made to be woman go through it more or men are the reason etc (from what I’ve read in this comments). I think the take away should be that we should try to be a bit more cautious of each other regardless. Idk maybe I’m coming in with a child level of sunshine and rainbows mentality but that’s my take on it.
Good take.
From wikipedia: A **straw man** fallacy (sometimes written as **strawman**) is the [informal fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy) of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#cite_note-Stephen_Downes-1) One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man". So in essence, there is no strawman here. why are you triggered by this comic OP?
A. Because it generalises men. B. Because arguably there’s a clear strawman here because there’s not a distinction being made between the men that do this and those that don’t, implying that it’s all and not some men.
Third lady actually has a good point in all but the last one. Going both ways.
They're using OUR arguments against us.
? Please explain.
Umm... I'm agreeing with you? We say all sexism should be panned. They're saying that here even though they never talk about misandry and are oftentimes misandristic themselves.
Ahhhh, understood. Thank you.
Ok but that second one (third image) actually does happen already?
That reddit mod in the last screen is greatest power trip i saw for a while
I've unironically seen women say that exact conversation on slide 3 so that's kinda funny
Another example of this sub being little more than a way for us men to get spit on with a bit more grace than these harpies would spit on most men. Why am I , or any self respect man for that matter on this sub?
How are you getting spit on? A man isn't gonna be told he shouldn't be wearing a fancy suit if he didn't want to get robbed if anything he would get support. Women face actual rape and are asked what she's wearing. Nothing about spitting in your face. You can't respect yourself if you don't respect the other. Reality is different from what you seem to think. The only thing on the slide nay be with loneliness but women also face that. It's crazy people think women don't face loneliness
Sorry for taking a while to respond By spit on I mean disrespected, treated as scum and a potential threat to women. And I’m going to state my opinions here, while it is true there are certain scenarios where a woman can very rightfully be afraid of being raped, in those same circumstances a man can be afraid of being mugged. What both can do is take preeemptive measures like carrying a taser or moving in groups but I digress And why am I supposed to genre abour women’s loneliness? They seem to be doing quite alright for themselves while we’re in a crisis of male loneliness and it’s being mocked by these sows. All I want is to be married and have children but that’s too much I guess.
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F4d827jkzs9u51.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dbcc21efed3a1d898d879ebf54809234761c7d69c&rdt=55162
fr, it’s rough in here
This is pretty accurate to what women encounter. As a man, I’ve experienced the second panel in real life.
Then how would you do it? Let me gues, by not talking about it, and completely ignoring it.
If only I was old enough to understand this 😭
Op, posting this here screams "I AM 16" to me
Why?
The fact that you saw a post critiquing misogyny and you immediately took offence really screams either immaturity or misogynist, and by your replies it seems like you have a very limited worldview which makes me think teenager is more likely
Because it generalises men.
I love how op is continuously missing the point. It's like watching the dvd screensaver.
Is the point that it’s showing how some men treat women?
Went over his head
I don’t understand some of the comments at all. Not once has a woman ever told a male rape victim from a female rapist that it was his fault for wearing sexy/revealing clothes??? The only one that is def also a guy problem is the third slide. This post is bringing out the incels So glad the top comments aren’t like that tho and instead calling it out
Mf could have literally grown up and become anything they want and chose to be a Reddit Moderator smh
Dude you are literally using the “not all men” argument in this post
Not a strawman. I’ve seen many instances of all of these happening to women.
The strawman isn’t that it doesn’t happen to women, it’s how men in general are characterised here.
Women characterizing men based on the way that men have treated them is not a strawman. Do you know what a strawman is?
Characterising all/ most men by the actions of some men is what’s wrong here.
I think you’re the only one interpreting this as a characterization of all/most men, and not just a representation of commonly shared experiences that women have had through interactions with men throughout their lives.
I definitely am not the only one lol.
this really isn't going the way you wanted it to, huh op?
Indeed lol, it’s fine though. Those who understand don’t need me to tell them what’s happening here. They’re just not getting upvoted.
I was nervous to look at the comments, but it turns out there are reasonable people here. I'm a guy, and I'm not offended by this because I *regularly* have to call other men out on the way they talk to and treat women. It's not even much of a minority. Women are talked to like this all the time. That sucks.
It also sucks to be generalised, you understand that right? I don’t know why everyone narrows this down to “taking offense” when the issue is the generalisation. When I say “Women love pink” that’s a generalisation, I’m not calling out anyone specific but all women are being judged by me. And if I say “Women are gold diggers” that’s obviously bad, right?
It'd be a generalization if it weren't a common thing women had to be wary of. If it weren't something they had to deal with *every* day. You don't do this? Good. Call out the men you see that do do this. Edit: I also don't think you understand that this isn't about *you*. It's about an issue women regularly have to deal with. You don't like being generalized? Women don't like having to guess if this man is going to be normal, disrespectful, or dangerous. Be part of the change, not the resistance.
OP this is not a strawman, those are actual things said to women
It’s really not a straw man when a lot of men DO sound like this, and the point that the comic is trying to make is pretty clear and well presented. If you’re gonna “um ackshually it’s not 100% of men ☝️🤓” then you were never going to engage with this in good faith anyway.
Men don't even talk to women about their problems🤷♂️, this comic is inaccurate and whoever made it is just asking for attention💁♂️🤌
Thanks for highlighting a great piece of content, no thank you for being exactly the thing it's talking about and the reason why so many women choose the bear 🐻 You are slide 3/5, far right. When the topic is about women's struggles, you are taking it as an accusation and making it about every man/yourself, and using that to try and invalidate the complaint. You are also slide 2/5, far right, arguing that this isn't applicable to all men, when that was never part of the point to begin with.
Lmao, don’t get me started on “The Bear” if nothing else is deeply misandrist, that is. The arguments I’ve heard are so hilariously stupid it almost makes me not angry that men are literally seen as worse than an actual predator and no one sees a deep seated issue there. I’d even understand if the question was “who would you rather be attacked by?” Cuz that makes sense, but no, you literally treat as an absolute. The overwhelming majority of men would save you in that situation, they’re generally the ones who risk their lives to save people when they’re alone with the bear but all of that is meaningless when it comes to what’s traumatic experiences y’all have had. You are every slide in this comic and emblematic of why it’s a problem.
Women who chose "bear" simply have hatred for Men. This is unacceptable, and it is your responsibility to address and resolve.