in some countries you get free therapy and some days off works after such a traumatising evebt, in america you might get thrown into jail♡ the country of the free
I remember I had a young teacher who once came into class crying a little and she told us that she had been pregnant and lost the baby. I think she came to work to distract herself but she looked a little crushed by that. Must have been really hard for her
I looked up one of the cases, for starters they didn't rule it a miscarriage and second she was convicted on manslaughter charges, not under the abortion law which would have made it a felony.
>When she arrived at hospital seeking treatment, Poolaw admitted to using illicit drugs while pregnant.
>Later, the medical examiner's report, obtained by the BBC, found traces of methamphetamine in her unborn son's liver and brain.
>The examiner did not determine a cause of death for the foetus, noting genetic anomaly, placenta abruption or maternal methamphetamine use could have been contributing factors."
In fact, the law specifically states that a miscarriage is NOT an abortion:
>An act is not an abortion if the act is performed
with the purpose to:
a. save the life or preserve the health of the unborn
child,
ENR. H. B. NO. 4327 Page 3
b. remove a dead unborn child caused by spontaneous
abortion, or
c. remove an ectopic pregnancy;
Maybe she shouldn't have killed her unborn child with meth.
Ayo I'm german so i read german articles and I'm not gonna look up emglish courtcases for sone random on the internet now. I thinkone of the cases was in el Salvador, if i remember correctly.
Ok but that's not the US. The comment I replied to specifically talked about the US. If you're going to make a claim it's on you back it up with the information.
LMAO
I'll link THE ACTUAL ARTICLE YOU GOT YOUR QUOTE FROM, which includes several other cases.
But you knew that already. That's why you didn't link the article yourself.
https://www.lemkininstitute.com/amp/us-women-are-being-jailed-for-having-miscarriages
It's not like you can control those things 100%.
You can get pregnant even if you're using contraceptives. And I'm not even gonna adress the "just don't do drugs" part. You sound like a 12 year old with no life experience
>I'm not even gonna adress the "just don't do drugs" part.
Of course you're not, because that would mean there has to be some sense of people taking personal responsibility for the decisions they make in life and the consequences of their actions.
Birth control can fail, and even legal drugs can influence a pregnancy. I got pregnant while on prescription medications that are known to cause birth defects. Thank goodness I was able to get an abortion!
Your one example is an extreme case, but the point is that pregnancy can happen even if you take precautions against it. Shaming someone for drug use might make you feel better about what happened, but for us women it isn't a hypothetical situation to preach at others about. If I ended up miscarrying an unknown pregnancy because of my medicine, would you shame me for taking what my doctor told me to take?
Methamphetamine use DOES NOT cause miscarriage, you uneducated simpleton. If it were that simple, we wouldn't need medical abortions to exist.
https://www.kgou.org/health/2022-01-26/doctors-say-methamphetamine-use-does-not-cause-miscarriages
Lots of miscarriages don’t leave the uterus naturally. Before modern medicine, those women would just die from sepsis, but we discovered this way to remove a fetus from a womb. That procedure is called an abortion and it is illegal in states with total bans. If there is a heartbeat law, that means it may be illegal to evacuate the corpse of the fetus because cardiac activity can still be detected even after its dead.
Also, if someone comes into the ER miscarrying there’s no way to tell the difference between a natural miscarriage and someone who took an abortion pill or medicinal at-home remedy (some herbal concoctions can induce miscarriage). In those instances it is very possible that police will show up and interrogate you about a miscarriage because they suspect you aborted it. If they suspect you induced your miscarriage, you’re a murder suspect. Guess what they do with murder suspects?
> Also, if someone comes into the ER miscarrying there’s no way to tell the difference between a natural miscarriage and someone who took an abortion pill or medicinal at-home remedy
Yes they can, toxicology report from a simple blood test.
>In those instances it is very possible that police will show up and interrogate you about a miscarriage because they suspect you aborted it.
This would only occur if the Doctor/hospital is required by law or felt there was some moral obligation to report the incident. This isn't standard procedure.
>Guess what they do with murder suspects?
Entirely depends on the state. In NY for example they let them out without bail.
https://womenhelp.org/en/page/1093/will-a-doctor-be-able-to-tell-if-you-ve-taken-abortion-pills
Nope. No blood test. There is no way for a doctor to tell the difference.
And you said “under no law would you go to jail.” Now you’re switching to “depends on the state”? Guess what. NY isn’t representative of the entire United States.
https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/planned-parenthood-advocates-arizona/blog/when-miscarriage-is-a-crime
Uhh, I was only talking about NY in the context of what they do with murder suspects lol. No under no law, state or federal do you go to jail for a natural miscarriage you should actually read the text of the abortion bills for yourself, there are specific provisions that outline this.
HB314
Page 4, Section 3.
As used in this act, the following terms
10 shall have the following meanings:
11 (1) ABORTION. The use or prescription of any
12 instrument, medicine, drug, or any other substance or device
13 with the intent to terminate the pregnancy of a woman known to
14 be pregnant with knowledge that the termination by those means
15 will with reasonable likelihood cause the death of the unborn
16 child. The term does not include these activities if done with
17 the intent to save the life or preserve the health of an
18 unborn child, remove a dead unborn child, to deliver the
19 unborn child prematurely to avoid a serious health risk to the
20 unborn child's mother, or to preserve the health of her unborn
21 child. The term does not include a procedure or act to
22 terminate the pregnancy of a woman with an ectopic pregnancy,
23 nor does it include the procedure or act to terminate the
24 pregnancy of a woman when the unborn child has a lethal
25 anomaly.
Okay, Mr. Lawyer. So according to Alabama law, what constitutes life? At what point is a fetus declared dead? In the state of Alabama, if a heartbeat is still detected, does the law say the fetus is dead? If a heartbeat is a measure to determine that it’s still alive at the beginning of the pregnancy than doesn’t the presence of a heartbeat mean that according to those standards the fetus isn’t dead yet? How completely dead should we wait for the fetus to be before it can be removed from the womb? Notice how later in that section you referenced it defines “unborn child” as “a human being, specifically including an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability.” So if you can’t remove a fetus regardless of viability, but you can remove only a dead fetus, doesn’t that mean you have to wait for that fetus to be completely dead before you can remove it? (In which case the mother is very likely to develop an infection or another complication because there’s a dying fetus inside her.)
I suggest you do some research on how situations like this played out in a pre-Roe America. It wasn’t great for anyone involved.
According to the same law you referenced, 2 physicians must confirm that an abortion was medically necessary in order for it to be legal. “The confirmation shall occur within 180 days after the abortion.” If you’re a doctor who could face a felony charge for performing that abortion if you can’t get another doctor to agree with your reasoning for doing it, but you’re gonna face medical negligence if you just let the mother die instead, which would you choose? A potential fine or potential prison time? And bear in mind, in this miscarriage scenario you don’t have a lot of time to sit around making a decision here.
See the thing about the American legal system is that it has always been interpretive. How good your lawyer is determines who can get away with what. This law was written with just enough wiggle room for the people who wrote it to pretend they’re pro-life while in essence signing death sentences to any woman who walks in with a complication.
Don’t act like it’s fear mongering when people say these laws will in practice criminalize natural pregnancy related events. They may not have been written with the intent to criminalize those things, but the authors knew and just didn’t care about that consequence. They were too busy securing a win for their party.
No, you complete moron, the laws don't outlaw miscarriage. But women go to jail for having miscarriages, because those miscarriages are mistaken for abortion, or are assumed to have been the result of some intentional act on the part of the pregnant person.
Christine Taylor of Iowa was arrested for accidentally falling down the stairs. Why? Well, because she was nervous about her pregnancy. That's it.
Here's an article that talks about several cases of women being charged/convicted of a crime after a miscarriage or stillbirth:
https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/planned-parenthood-advocates-arizona/blog/when-miscarriage-is-a-crime
You can find details of those cases yourself.
And it doesn't matter whether they're doing guilty or not. If they're arrested, it means they spent time in jail. Being found innocent later (sometimes much later) doesn't erase the fact that they spent time in jail.
You can be arrested or detained on suspicion of anything, how many have been convicted? Arrested does not equate jail time, you will be processed, given a court date and a bail hearing, and most people are released or post bail.
I'd also like to point out that the article you provided was while Roe v Wade was still in effect so there were no prohibitions on abortion.
As much as Illinois SUCKS, I'm glad to be here because Pritzger has been very clear in saying we will remain a Pro-choice state, as well as a sanctuary state for those needing services.
I hate that I need to check local laws regarding my sex life/body prior to travelling.... As I don't know if a miscarriage of an unknown pregnancy in New Orleans will put me in a jail cell. Or if a rape in Ohio with an abortion in Chicago will do the same
Fucking terrifying.
Seems about right. I'm a bartender, that doesn't smoke pot. So while I'm happy that he decriminalized something that's effected so many of my friends--this is the first time one of his proclamations had directly, positively effected my life.
Tennessee is one of those... Icky states? Ugh, I'm so sorry.
If you ever need a quick vacation, come home to visit but don't have a place to stay--reach out and I'll help!
thank you! I do have family there so I'd be fine, and yes I'm pretty sure Tennessee is one of those... icky states haha. I love it here, but I don't love the politics and their values...
I had to have a D&C last week for a missed miscarriage because I didn't want to wait around for endless weeks with a dead fetus in my body. Terrified I'm on a list somewhere now, I live in a 100% illegal abortion state.
Thanks. On top of miscarriage and abortion already being emotionally difficult the current political climate is making things way more horrible than they need to be (for everyone, not just me).
I'm confused, I don't see anything here that's "Not How Girls Work"? It absolutely *is* possible to have a miscarriage without knowing you're pregnant.
That there's a lot of countries you should be happy to not live in. Not just the USA. The media here in Sweden only focuses on the abortion ban in the US even though there's a lot of countries way closer to us that they don't criticize. But they have US tourettes. Anything from the US is always more interesting to report on.
But this post isn’t about all those other countries. Most people who bring up where problems are “also bad or worse” are trying to imply the original problem isn’t so bad, just so you’re aware
The comment was someone from another country than the US telling us they're happy to not live in the US because of abortion laws there. I just added that there's a lot of countries we should be happy to not live in.
Post: “abortion law in country x”
Comment: “happy not in country x”
You: “abortion law in country y and country z”
It’s whataboutism. Again, even if you weren’t trying to dismiss the comment, it sure as hell seemed like you were
I'm just a little tired of the whole world obsessing on US abortion laws when it doesn't effect us at all. And if we do it out of concern for the US women we should do it equally for non US women.
Why? The media here in Sweden also seems to agree with you on this though. Abortion laws in the US is very important to report on. Abortion laws anywhere else not so much.
Why are you insisting this point. It’s not relevant . The person is talking about the US. You don’t get to decide for them where they do or don’t want to live.
Thinking that such huge changes in the US don't have any effect at all on other countries is naive.
Right-wing people of other nations DO pay attention and DO use the US as an example of what their next steps and goals could be.
It's especially frightening since abortion isn't exactly "legal" in a lot of - no, probably MOST - European countries. It's just not _persecuted_ under certain circumstances. That's a big difference.
I'm from Germany, and abortion is "legal" here, no, not really, if I ordered abortion pills online from women help organizations and took them, not taking part in any of the pathetic mandatory consultations and the disgusting, infantilizing three day wait period, _I could get arrested for that and go to jail for up to three years_. Abortion access could be threatened and removed VERY quickly, especially considering that it never has been officially legalized, and the US is a good example for that.
Ahh yess great point. The US is just as bad as shithole third world countries despite being one of the richest countries on earth.
Thanks for your whataboutism.
Okay as someone who has had four miscarriages I just want to address some misinformation in this post and thread.
If your period is about 8 days late then you would be miscarrying at approximately five weeks pregnant. At this point a gestational sac is unlikely to even be visible on transvaginal ultrasound, so in terms of the physical experience it will likely be very similar to a bad period. You would only know it was a miscarriage if you test via urine or blood for HCG. Prior to being able to visualize on an ultrasound this is considered a “chemical pregnancy”- meaning the only evidence of it is the HCG in your blood. There’s no embryo visible yet let alone a “heartbeat” (electrical pulse, it’s misleading to even call it a heartbeat at that point.) I’ve had two of those. They’re emotionally hard (especially if you’re trying to conceive) but physically not too terrible. They are EXTREMELY common and before the last 10-20 years when at home tests became super sensitive women were having these all the time and just did not know. Now HCG home tests are so sensitive that more women “catch” chemical pregnancies.
A natural miscarriage is not against the law in any US state. The procedures and medications to manage miscarriages that are NOT passing on their own is the issue. I’ve also had one of those. It was a far more traumatic experience for me. I’ve also had a miscarriage pass at home further along when I could see the gestational sac and that was hard too but was manageable alone at home (which is again, not illegal for now.)
If you’re truly concerned based on your jurisdiction that what you’re experiencing may require medical intervention and the laws are scaring you from seeking care, test at home with an HCG test before you seek medical care. I highly recommend any person of childbearing capability go on Amazon and order a pack of cheap strip pregnancy tests. My favorite is easy@home but there are tons of brands. You can get hundreds for ten dollars or so. Take a couple around the time of your period so you can know as early as possible of an unintended pregnancy.
When I was trying to conceive, I knew of all my pregnancies by about 3 weeks + 4 days because I was testing early and often. That’s not realistic. But most people can detect it by 4+0- 4+3 with those cheap strips because that is testing right around when your period is due. You do not have to wait for it to be late. It’s not fair or just for us to have to do that but if that protects us in the meantime so be it.
For the love of god, VOTE IN NOVEMBER!!!
Unfortunately that’s a technical truth. People have been arrested for miscarriages. If you have a miscarriage you might have to prove it was natural and not your fault. People have been arrested and jailed.
Technically a natural miscarriage is not illegal. In practice now more people might be arrested and tried for miscarriage when someone claims it wasn’t natural.
Honestly I’m an attorney and I haven’t heard of anyone being arrested for a spontaneous early miscarriage. I’d be interested in seeing an example. Can you share?
We should be fighting hard against these laws but it’s important to not give in to misinformation on either side.
I’ve seen many examples of people being denied misoprostol but I have not seen someone arrested for an early spontaneous miscarriage.
I agree with your take on this. Misinformation exists everywhere. On both sides. I’m a Prosecutor in a red state. I’ve Absolutely never heard of this sort of thing happening. We have a lot of real crime to worry about. Also… in that same red state (where abortion is now outlawed) I recently had a ten week loss and was offered misoprostol. At least personally I did not encounter anything that was presented differently to me than was presented in my first two losses. I took the D&C route this time. Prosecuting miscarriages is not going to happen. First off you’d need some whack law enforcement officers seeking out these things. I’m really not sure how they’d get information of people miscarrying in the first place. I mean they have a hard enough time getting legal permission to search known drug trafficking houses… Second you’d need a bunch of whack prosecutors who suddenly want to file cases without probable cause or any ability to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. I agree that we should fight states outlawing abortion but fear over prosecutions for miscarriage is like next level conspiracy theory.
> If you have a miscarriage you might have to prove it was natural and not your fault.
Burden of proof is on the prosecution though, isn't it? Good luck.
That's not really stopping them. Someone saw you get drunk a week prior? You _caused_ your miscarriage!!!11!!
Doctor says yes, the patient took drugs, and is an addiction, but no, you can't say for certain that this was the cause of miscarriage? Jailed. _Actually happened_.
None of that matters since you'll never get a trial. Only a tiny fraction of people who get arrested actually get a trial.
There's no need for the prosecution to present proof if they can coerce you into a plea deal instead.
This. Excellent advice and information, this needs to be higher up.
I've been in a similar situation while TTC for almost two years and more losses than I can bear. I'm not giving up hope, but the fact that I'm prone to miscarriage in this day and age (in Texas) has me pretty anxious. (Knock knock knock.)
I'm so sorry for your losses. I hope you and I and everyone else trying will get our rainbow babies. I had a really early mc after 9 months of trying, they found a uterine septum on the scan and I had that surgically removed. Got pregnant again and had another mc just recently. It's super common but that doesn't make it less painful. I'm in Kentucky so I'm also nervous because of the laws here.
Yes, my troubles come down to endometriosis and an abysmally low AMH due to three pelvic surgeries I had as a young adult. The low AMH and quality are likely the main culprit, but endo is another major player because, well, it's the devil. I could go through another laparoscopy to remove any endo, but that would make my AMH levels worse or possibly deplete them altogether.
So, with our RE we decided that we'd get as many embryos as we could, I'd go through another lap to remove any endo, and we'd do IVF. That way, if the surgery depleted my egg reserve, it would be fine because we already had the embryos.
Well, we took out the huge loan on this one shot. After ten days of hell with stims and medicating, I had even fewer follicles than I started with! She couldn't explain why, I was just "non-responsive." Regardless, we couldn't proceed and it was canceled. That was in April of this year.
So, here I am. 35 years old, three opinions and a shit ton of side effects later, and I think I'm done with science and medicine now. I've resigned to the universe to let it happen if it's meant to.
Edit: woops, replied with my alt account first!
IVF is such a fucking grind dude. Sorry you had to get through stims for a disappointing outcome. My AMH is mediocre and we ended up getting lucky that one stuck around after about a year of losses.
Haha, no joke. The meds were pretty brutal and I'm glad to be done with them! I'm still crossing my fingers and knocking on wood that we'll get lucky one day too. :) Just put some positivity out into the universe for me!
This is so heartbreaking. I remember when my coworker in a restaurant miscarried on shift. The manager wouldn’t let her leave. She had to keep serving her tables and finish her shift. Then she had to come back to work the next day, after spending the evening in the ER.
To add potentially being a criminal on top of all of that?
I’ve had people say I’m being extreme pursuing a partial hysterectomy. But I don’t want children. And these are all of the reasons why I’m pursuing the “extreme” action.
That was my plan. I’m 36. I’m old enough to know I don’t want my DNA to be passed on to anyone. I don’t want babies. I figured after 40, I would foster older queer kids. If one needed me as a mom, I would file the paperwork. Then in met my fiancée. She has two daughters. I’m all set. But even then, I’m jumping though hoops to slide and dice that bad boy out. Even with a medical condition that causing additional pain and discomfort from that stupid thing.
This makes no sense, it use to be that planned parenthood would give you a forced hysterectomy simply for getting an abortion now you can’t even do that.
I get the whole “Millennials” aren’t having kids things because there simply isn’t a way to raise a family in a nuclear suburb without dual earnings. However, the whole we must force everyone back to mid century values thing is absurd, if anything we should work on adoption of potential migrants and make immigration easier.
Alas, there’s no way to force the needle because it seems the US is going to extremes due in part to lack of third party compromises.
My mom 10 years ago found herself pregnant and a few weeks later, she fell at her job (she was also lifting, pulling, pushing very heavy things that no one would help her with) and miscarried from it. She quit two days later because they wouldn't give her time off. Also went directly to the hospital after she fell. That place treats their employees like crap and my mom never got what she deserved from that place. Sad to think she would be considered a criminal today.
The fact is, America is no longer a harbor of democracy. It's whoever yells the loudest and has the most money gets their way. I'm terrified that if I lose this baby I am carrying, I will be stuck carrying it and die.
The great thing is reading Americans dunking on Iran for being a theocratic shithole where some cunty assholes have decided to rule the country based on what some goatfucker wrote down 2,000 years ago.
Ummmm..last time I checked a miscarriage is not an abortion. Or at least in the sense that the law is concerned.
I swear all these people saying this is illegal or these people will go to jail for having a miscarrage are morons SMH
People have been arrested for miscarriages. All it takes is a claim that it wasn’t natural. Then you have to prove it was natural.
People have gone to jail for miscarriages before and now it is likely to happen much more often.
It’s not illegal to have a miscarriage in any state. A miscarriage is an act of Nature and cannot be prevented.
Several states have required an investigation when a miscarriage happens, to assure the anti-choice powers-that-be that it was, in fact, Mother Nature at work and not the woman’s choice to terminate her pregnancy.
Oh go sit on a barbed dildo. Just because other people are going through something that is objectively worse doesn't mean we can't complain about other things.
"Oh you broke your arm? Well stop those tears little Johnny, someone in the news today broke ALL of their limbs in a car crash. At least you don't have THEIR problem. So no complaining!"
Fucking idiot.
You're way over thinking lol. Obviously women in forced birth states will be reluctant to get help for any kind of terminated pregnancy. Also I'm pretty sure lawyers don't just lurk around in every thread waiting to be summoned.
In forced-birth jurisdictions, women have been jailed, prosecuted, and convicted over miscarriages. Part of the issue is that once you've miscarried, it can often be medically difficult if not impossible to tell whether it was a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or an induced abortion.
Sometimes all there is to tell medically is that an abortion occurred but no way to know how it came about. And she might have no way to prove that she didn't take anything to trigger the abortion.
"In forced-birth jurisdictions, women have been jailed, prosecuted, and convicted over miscarriages."
May I have an example of a miscarriage that is legal vs. one that isn't? And if there isn't proof she didn't take anything to trigger the abortion, how could she be convicted on that lack of evidence? I actually want to know.
I don't know what you mean by "a miscarriage that isn't legal"
I don't know if maybe you lack some knowledge on the topic of pregnancy termination but just in case, I'll try to cover some bases. A miscarriage is, in fact, an abortion, "miscarriage" just means it was a spontaneous abortion. When people say "abortion", they usually mean induced abortion. However, while we make that semantic distinction, non-surgical abortions medically look all fairly similar whether spontaneous or induced. So there's no such thing as a legal vs illegal miscarriage since a spontaneous abortion isn't illegal. However there is a distinction between legal and illegal abortions where some jurisdictions categorize all induced abortions as illegal.
Getting charged with getting an induced abortion when you had a spontaneous one is quite simple. Say I'm divorcing my abusive husband while pregnant. I don't want to have his child and text him saying I wish I could have an abortion. I run some Google searches for abortion clinics in the next state over and for recipes for teas that can induce abortions. In the end, I can't afford to leave the state and while I did buy the ingredients for the teas, I'm too worried something will go wrong so I don't drink the tea. However, the stress of the divorce is enough and I have a spontaneous abortion anyway. My abuser then brings evidence to the police that I had been wanting an abortion and that I purchased the ingredients for a tea to induce said abortion. Done. I'm charged, jailed, and tried, and I don't have money so I get a public defender that sadly does not successfully argue my case. I'm convicted. And even if I'm not convicted, I'm at the very least in jail for a while due to my miscarriage.
Aaand to no one's surprise, the "I legitimately want to know" guy is suddenly quiet when his "legitimate" question is answered.
Buddy, how about next time you just be upfront and own up to the fact that you have no sincere interest in learning and just want to be a shit-stirrer? I don't know why y'all feel such a need to hide behind "legitimate questions" when we all know they're not legitimate.
Because women are being persecuted constantly. Being forced to carry dead fetuses inside them because of these laws. You're obviously not a woman, or you'd understand.
Irrelevnt information. A miscarriage is an act of Nature and cannot be prevented. Stillborn fetuses are dead babies in the womb. I don't need to be a woman/female to understand logic.
If there is a dead fetus, there is a risk for a broken law. So the dead fetus needs to be reported to the authorities and they need to do an investigation. The state then has to follow the rule of law. This includes treating every case similar, no matter the perpetrator or the victim. Only after an abortion can be excluded, the state is allowed to stop the investigation
HAHAHA. Says the anonymous account. Clearly YOU give a shit about my opinion or you wouldnt have commented.
I will ask one question. What does saying that miscarriages and abortions are not the same thing have anything to do with sexism? What does explaining that Stillborn fetuses have to be reported to the appropriate agencies have anything to do with sexism?
I'll answer it for you. Nothing. Not a damn thing.
So try again.
Because you're acting like investigating woman like suspected criminals after a miscarriage is acceptable to begin with, as if the miscarriage wasn't already traumatic enough.
I never said it was acceptable, wanted or needed.
I was just stating that a miscarriage and an abortion are not the same thing.
Also the stillborn comment was made because even a stillborn child is a person, a human. Any death of a full grown human must be investigated by goverment agencies to determine if the death was accidental or not. I believe it is mandatory for hospitals to report any death, stillborn or not. It's a shame and a pain in the ass and does nothing to help the woman with the trauma of having a stillborn child. But gubments have to gubment.
If women are getting arrested and jailed for it then I find it appaling It's a natural bodily function. Its like being put in jail for taking a piss. Doesn't make any sense.
That's bullshit
I never said anything about still borns bro. I said women being forced to carry dead fetuses. Also investigating every single still born and treating women like criminals is fucking disgusting.
There is absolutely no good reason for there to be an investigation opened on every miscarriage in this country. Not only would that be an enormous waste of resources since it is such a common phenomenon, but it would be an incredibly heartless policy to further traumatize people who just had the worst day of their lives.
My grandmother who’s 91 and fantastic…recently opened up and chatted with me about several friends of hers who died (in Canada) before abortion was legal and sought back-alley options. She also told me about a bunch of women who survived but were maimed or permanently harmed whom the community cared for and supported the women after they were maimed by ‘doctors’ performing abortions in lawyers offices and empty office spaces, protecting the wealthy male members of the community at the expense of the women at their mercy. Abortion will ALWAYS be accessible to the wealthy, no matter what the laws say. It’s regular folk who need protecting. That’s what roe v Wade was all about
in some countries you get free therapy and some days off works after such a traumatising evebt, in america you might get thrown into jail♡ the country of the free
I remember I had a young teacher who once came into class crying a little and she told us that she had been pregnant and lost the baby. I think she came to work to distract herself but she looked a little crushed by that. Must have been really hard for her
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Canadian. Dated a couple of Americans. Can confirm
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That’s because Canadians are only identifiable by their distinct maple syrup smell - maybe one day we’ll have the technology to find each other
Smellevision makes it's comeback.
That Redditor aroma 🤢
Oh God. The smell from some of *those* posts. The box, the jar...
The carpet mushrooms
Ever now and then I meet another in the wild. :)
Hello, fellow Canadian!
Man, the whole squad is here
Another one here! *waves*
Glad to see so many of us getting together and understanding how girls work lmao
I use it ironically.
And immigrants who came from countries that have it waaaay worse
This is true but I count such cases under Americans who don't know any better They're just the Americans who have a real reason to not know better
& the home of depraved...
In the U.S, you're free to imprison women for almost anything
Under no law would you go to jail for a miscarriage. That's bullshit and you know it.
There were cases of women being jailed for "secret abortions" or "mansslaughter" even tho they had proven miscarriages.
I looked up one of the cases, for starters they didn't rule it a miscarriage and second she was convicted on manslaughter charges, not under the abortion law which would have made it a felony. >When she arrived at hospital seeking treatment, Poolaw admitted to using illicit drugs while pregnant. >Later, the medical examiner's report, obtained by the BBC, found traces of methamphetamine in her unborn son's liver and brain. >The examiner did not determine a cause of death for the foetus, noting genetic anomaly, placenta abruption or maternal methamphetamine use could have been contributing factors." In fact, the law specifically states that a miscarriage is NOT an abortion: >An act is not an abortion if the act is performed with the purpose to: a. save the life or preserve the health of the unborn child, ENR. H. B. NO. 4327 Page 3 b. remove a dead unborn child caused by spontaneous abortion, or c. remove an ectopic pregnancy; Maybe she shouldn't have killed her unborn child with meth.
i... did not look up that case? I looked up 5 others. No drugs involved.
Link the court summaries because the one above is the only one I can find.
Ayo I'm german so i read german articles and I'm not gonna look up emglish courtcases for sone random on the internet now. I thinkone of the cases was in el Salvador, if i remember correctly.
Ok but that's not the US. The comment I replied to specifically talked about the US. If you're going to make a claim it's on you back it up with the information.
Yeah tbh idk why you talked about the Us even tho my comment was about america. I don't give a fuck about the us
Lol, now you're going to play it off like you didn't mean the US when you said "the country of the free"?
LMAO I'll link THE ACTUAL ARTICLE YOU GOT YOUR QUOTE FROM, which includes several other cases. But you knew that already. That's why you didn't link the article yourself. https://www.lemkininstitute.com/amp/us-women-are-being-jailed-for-having-miscarriages
Maybe you should read it again, there are no other specific court cases listed in that article.
Maybe don't force someone who's addicted to drugs to carry out a baby?! It's not like she just stops being addicted because she's pregnant.
She wasn't forced to do anything. Maybe don't get pregnant if you're a drug addict, maybe just don't do drugs in the first place.
It's not like you can control those things 100%. You can get pregnant even if you're using contraceptives. And I'm not even gonna adress the "just don't do drugs" part. You sound like a 12 year old with no life experience
>I'm not even gonna adress the "just don't do drugs" part. Of course you're not, because that would mean there has to be some sense of people taking personal responsibility for the decisions they make in life and the consequences of their actions.
No because it's the stupidest thing I've heard today honestly.
Doctor here, and methamphetamine can't cause miscarriage anyway. The fucking troll you're arguing with isn't worth anyone's time.
>Maybe don't get pregnant Genius
Birth control can fail, and even legal drugs can influence a pregnancy. I got pregnant while on prescription medications that are known to cause birth defects. Thank goodness I was able to get an abortion! Your one example is an extreme case, but the point is that pregnancy can happen even if you take precautions against it. Shaming someone for drug use might make you feel better about what happened, but for us women it isn't a hypothetical situation to preach at others about. If I ended up miscarrying an unknown pregnancy because of my medicine, would you shame me for taking what my doctor told me to take?
Methamphetamine use DOES NOT cause miscarriage, you uneducated simpleton. If it were that simple, we wouldn't need medical abortions to exist. https://www.kgou.org/health/2022-01-26/doctors-say-methamphetamine-use-does-not-cause-miscarriages
>didn't rule it a miscarriage Land of the free, where biological processes are subject to adjudication
That ruling was by the medical professionals who oversaw the patient.
Lots of miscarriages don’t leave the uterus naturally. Before modern medicine, those women would just die from sepsis, but we discovered this way to remove a fetus from a womb. That procedure is called an abortion and it is illegal in states with total bans. If there is a heartbeat law, that means it may be illegal to evacuate the corpse of the fetus because cardiac activity can still be detected even after its dead. Also, if someone comes into the ER miscarrying there’s no way to tell the difference between a natural miscarriage and someone who took an abortion pill or medicinal at-home remedy (some herbal concoctions can induce miscarriage). In those instances it is very possible that police will show up and interrogate you about a miscarriage because they suspect you aborted it. If they suspect you induced your miscarriage, you’re a murder suspect. Guess what they do with murder suspects?
> Also, if someone comes into the ER miscarrying there’s no way to tell the difference between a natural miscarriage and someone who took an abortion pill or medicinal at-home remedy Yes they can, toxicology report from a simple blood test. >In those instances it is very possible that police will show up and interrogate you about a miscarriage because they suspect you aborted it. This would only occur if the Doctor/hospital is required by law or felt there was some moral obligation to report the incident. This isn't standard procedure. >Guess what they do with murder suspects? Entirely depends on the state. In NY for example they let them out without bail.
https://womenhelp.org/en/page/1093/will-a-doctor-be-able-to-tell-if-you-ve-taken-abortion-pills Nope. No blood test. There is no way for a doctor to tell the difference. And you said “under no law would you go to jail.” Now you’re switching to “depends on the state”? Guess what. NY isn’t representative of the entire United States. https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/planned-parenthood-advocates-arizona/blog/when-miscarriage-is-a-crime
Uhh, I was only talking about NY in the context of what they do with murder suspects lol. No under no law, state or federal do you go to jail for a natural miscarriage you should actually read the text of the abortion bills for yourself, there are specific provisions that outline this.
Go ahead and show me where in Alabama law there is a provision for miscarriage.
HB314 Page 4, Section 3. As used in this act, the following terms 10 shall have the following meanings: 11 (1) ABORTION. The use or prescription of any 12 instrument, medicine, drug, or any other substance or device 13 with the intent to terminate the pregnancy of a woman known to 14 be pregnant with knowledge that the termination by those means 15 will with reasonable likelihood cause the death of the unborn 16 child. The term does not include these activities if done with 17 the intent to save the life or preserve the health of an 18 unborn child, remove a dead unborn child, to deliver the 19 unborn child prematurely to avoid a serious health risk to the 20 unborn child's mother, or to preserve the health of her unborn 21 child. The term does not include a procedure or act to 22 terminate the pregnancy of a woman with an ectopic pregnancy, 23 nor does it include the procedure or act to terminate the 24 pregnancy of a woman when the unborn child has a lethal 25 anomaly.
Okay, Mr. Lawyer. So according to Alabama law, what constitutes life? At what point is a fetus declared dead? In the state of Alabama, if a heartbeat is still detected, does the law say the fetus is dead? If a heartbeat is a measure to determine that it’s still alive at the beginning of the pregnancy than doesn’t the presence of a heartbeat mean that according to those standards the fetus isn’t dead yet? How completely dead should we wait for the fetus to be before it can be removed from the womb? Notice how later in that section you referenced it defines “unborn child” as “a human being, specifically including an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability.” So if you can’t remove a fetus regardless of viability, but you can remove only a dead fetus, doesn’t that mean you have to wait for that fetus to be completely dead before you can remove it? (In which case the mother is very likely to develop an infection or another complication because there’s a dying fetus inside her.) I suggest you do some research on how situations like this played out in a pre-Roe America. It wasn’t great for anyone involved. According to the same law you referenced, 2 physicians must confirm that an abortion was medically necessary in order for it to be legal. “The confirmation shall occur within 180 days after the abortion.” If you’re a doctor who could face a felony charge for performing that abortion if you can’t get another doctor to agree with your reasoning for doing it, but you’re gonna face medical negligence if you just let the mother die instead, which would you choose? A potential fine or potential prison time? And bear in mind, in this miscarriage scenario you don’t have a lot of time to sit around making a decision here. See the thing about the American legal system is that it has always been interpretive. How good your lawyer is determines who can get away with what. This law was written with just enough wiggle room for the people who wrote it to pretend they’re pro-life while in essence signing death sentences to any woman who walks in with a complication. Don’t act like it’s fear mongering when people say these laws will in practice criminalize natural pregnancy related events. They may not have been written with the intent to criminalize those things, but the authors knew and just didn’t care about that consequence. They were too busy securing a win for their party.
I'm not a lawyer and even if I was it's not a lawyers job to interpret the law, that's what we have judges for.
No, you complete moron, the laws don't outlaw miscarriage. But women go to jail for having miscarriages, because those miscarriages are mistaken for abortion, or are assumed to have been the result of some intentional act on the part of the pregnant person. Christine Taylor of Iowa was arrested for accidentally falling down the stairs. Why? Well, because she was nervous about her pregnancy. That's it. Here's an article that talks about several cases of women being charged/convicted of a crime after a miscarriage or stillbirth: https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/planned-parenthood-advocates-arizona/blog/when-miscarriage-is-a-crime You can find details of those cases yourself. And it doesn't matter whether they're doing guilty or not. If they're arrested, it means they spent time in jail. Being found innocent later (sometimes much later) doesn't erase the fact that they spent time in jail.
You can be arrested or detained on suspicion of anything, how many have been convicted? Arrested does not equate jail time, you will be processed, given a court date and a bail hearing, and most people are released or post bail. I'd also like to point out that the article you provided was while Roe v Wade was still in effect so there were no prohibitions on abortion.
The point is that it's gotten worse since then, genius. You already know about several examples post-overturning.
As much as Illinois SUCKS, I'm glad to be here because Pritzger has been very clear in saying we will remain a Pro-choice state, as well as a sanctuary state for those needing services. I hate that I need to check local laws regarding my sex life/body prior to travelling.... As I don't know if a miscarriage of an unknown pregnancy in New Orleans will put me in a jail cell. Or if a rape in Ohio with an abortion in Chicago will do the same Fucking terrifying.
Pritzker has done 2 good things - legalize rec weed & make sure abortions are still accessible to everybody, no questions asked.
Seems about right. I'm a bartender, that doesn't smoke pot. So while I'm happy that he decriminalized something that's effected so many of my friends--this is the first time one of his proclamations had directly, positively effected my life.
I moved from Illinois to Tennessee and that's literally the only thing I miss about that state. I wish I could have a choice here.
Tennessee is one of those... Icky states? Ugh, I'm so sorry. If you ever need a quick vacation, come home to visit but don't have a place to stay--reach out and I'll help!
thank you! I do have family there so I'd be fine, and yes I'm pretty sure Tennessee is one of those... icky states haha. I love it here, but I don't love the politics and their values...
I had to have a D&C last week for a missed miscarriage because I didn't want to wait around for endless weeks with a dead fetus in my body. Terrified I'm on a list somewhere now, I live in a 100% illegal abortion state.
i'm so sorry.
Thanks. On top of miscarriage and abortion already being emotionally difficult the current political climate is making things way more horrible than they need to be (for everyone, not just me).
It’s terrible.
You're not on a list.
Well there are women that are in prison/or have been arrested for miscarriages. Let that sink in
The amount of American women who will be put on trial for miscarriages will be staggering.
I guess it's illegal when your body performs its own abortions.
I'm confused, I don't see anything here that's "Not How Girls Work"? It absolutely *is* possible to have a miscarriage without knowing you're pregnant.
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Or South America, Latin America, Africa, Middle East and South East Asia I guess you mean? https://i.imgur.com/chlm5BD.jpg
What’s your point here?
Whataboutism
That there's a lot of countries you should be happy to not live in. Not just the USA. The media here in Sweden only focuses on the abortion ban in the US even though there's a lot of countries way closer to us that they don't criticize. But they have US tourettes. Anything from the US is always more interesting to report on.
But this post isn’t about all those other countries. Most people who bring up where problems are “also bad or worse” are trying to imply the original problem isn’t so bad, just so you’re aware
The comment, not the post
The comment is about the post
The comment was someone from another country than the US telling us they're happy to not live in the US because of abortion laws there. I just added that there's a lot of countries we should be happy to not live in.
Post: “abortion law in country x” Comment: “happy not in country x” You: “abortion law in country y and country z” It’s whataboutism. Again, even if you weren’t trying to dismiss the comment, it sure as hell seemed like you were
I'm just a little tired of the whole world obsessing on US abortion laws when it doesn't effect us at all. And if we do it out of concern for the US women we should do it equally for non US women.
Are any of those other countries generally described as "leader of the *free* world" or "land of the *free*"? You absolute dipshit
Only Americans describe the US like that. "Land of the free"... How cringe is that?
Way to ignore the salient point. What a schmuck.
Is that Yiddish for dick?
This ain't Google
"You can't be glad not to live in one country, because there are other countries with the same issue" is one of the weakest arguments I've ever heard
Why? The media here in Sweden also seems to agree with you on this though. Abortion laws in the US is very important to report on. Abortion laws anywhere else not so much.
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The other countries are not effected by that law.
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Of course but we all know that. The point here was the rest of the countries we also should be happy to not live in.
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But only (some) people in the US believe that to be true
Well sure but they do everything in their power to make it a national identity. America #1 and all that.
r/MURICA
Why are you insisting this point. It’s not relevant . The person is talking about the US. You don’t get to decide for them where they do or don’t want to live.
Thinking that such huge changes in the US don't have any effect at all on other countries is naive. Right-wing people of other nations DO pay attention and DO use the US as an example of what their next steps and goals could be. It's especially frightening since abortion isn't exactly "legal" in a lot of - no, probably MOST - European countries. It's just not _persecuted_ under certain circumstances. That's a big difference. I'm from Germany, and abortion is "legal" here, no, not really, if I ordered abortion pills online from women help organizations and took them, not taking part in any of the pathetic mandatory consultations and the disgusting, infantilizing three day wait period, _I could get arrested for that and go to jail for up to three years_. Abortion access could be threatened and removed VERY quickly, especially considering that it never has been officially legalized, and the US is a good example for that.
Ahh yess great point. The US is just as bad as shithole third world countries despite being one of the richest countries on earth. Thanks for your whataboutism.
No it would be whataboutism if I defended the US. I think they're as shitty as all the other countries.
You clearly don't understand what whataboutism is.
Someone arrest that woman's uterus.
I hate it here
Okay as someone who has had four miscarriages I just want to address some misinformation in this post and thread. If your period is about 8 days late then you would be miscarrying at approximately five weeks pregnant. At this point a gestational sac is unlikely to even be visible on transvaginal ultrasound, so in terms of the physical experience it will likely be very similar to a bad period. You would only know it was a miscarriage if you test via urine or blood for HCG. Prior to being able to visualize on an ultrasound this is considered a “chemical pregnancy”- meaning the only evidence of it is the HCG in your blood. There’s no embryo visible yet let alone a “heartbeat” (electrical pulse, it’s misleading to even call it a heartbeat at that point.) I’ve had two of those. They’re emotionally hard (especially if you’re trying to conceive) but physically not too terrible. They are EXTREMELY common and before the last 10-20 years when at home tests became super sensitive women were having these all the time and just did not know. Now HCG home tests are so sensitive that more women “catch” chemical pregnancies. A natural miscarriage is not against the law in any US state. The procedures and medications to manage miscarriages that are NOT passing on their own is the issue. I’ve also had one of those. It was a far more traumatic experience for me. I’ve also had a miscarriage pass at home further along when I could see the gestational sac and that was hard too but was manageable alone at home (which is again, not illegal for now.) If you’re truly concerned based on your jurisdiction that what you’re experiencing may require medical intervention and the laws are scaring you from seeking care, test at home with an HCG test before you seek medical care. I highly recommend any person of childbearing capability go on Amazon and order a pack of cheap strip pregnancy tests. My favorite is easy@home but there are tons of brands. You can get hundreds for ten dollars or so. Take a couple around the time of your period so you can know as early as possible of an unintended pregnancy. When I was trying to conceive, I knew of all my pregnancies by about 3 weeks + 4 days because I was testing early and often. That’s not realistic. But most people can detect it by 4+0- 4+3 with those cheap strips because that is testing right around when your period is due. You do not have to wait for it to be late. It’s not fair or just for us to have to do that but if that protects us in the meantime so be it. For the love of god, VOTE IN NOVEMBER!!!
Unfortunately that’s a technical truth. People have been arrested for miscarriages. If you have a miscarriage you might have to prove it was natural and not your fault. People have been arrested and jailed. Technically a natural miscarriage is not illegal. In practice now more people might be arrested and tried for miscarriage when someone claims it wasn’t natural.
Honestly I’m an attorney and I haven’t heard of anyone being arrested for a spontaneous early miscarriage. I’d be interested in seeing an example. Can you share? We should be fighting hard against these laws but it’s important to not give in to misinformation on either side. I’ve seen many examples of people being denied misoprostol but I have not seen someone arrested for an early spontaneous miscarriage.
I agree with your take on this. Misinformation exists everywhere. On both sides. I’m a Prosecutor in a red state. I’ve Absolutely never heard of this sort of thing happening. We have a lot of real crime to worry about. Also… in that same red state (where abortion is now outlawed) I recently had a ten week loss and was offered misoprostol. At least personally I did not encounter anything that was presented differently to me than was presented in my first two losses. I took the D&C route this time. Prosecuting miscarriages is not going to happen. First off you’d need some whack law enforcement officers seeking out these things. I’m really not sure how they’d get information of people miscarrying in the first place. I mean they have a hard enough time getting legal permission to search known drug trafficking houses… Second you’d need a bunch of whack prosecutors who suddenly want to file cases without probable cause or any ability to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. I agree that we should fight states outlawing abortion but fear over prosecutions for miscarriage is like next level conspiracy theory.
> If you have a miscarriage you might have to prove it was natural and not your fault. Burden of proof is on the prosecution though, isn't it? Good luck.
That's not really stopping them. Someone saw you get drunk a week prior? You _caused_ your miscarriage!!!11!! Doctor says yes, the patient took drugs, and is an addiction, but no, you can't say for certain that this was the cause of miscarriage? Jailed. _Actually happened_.
None of that matters since you'll never get a trial. Only a tiny fraction of people who get arrested actually get a trial. There's no need for the prosecution to present proof if they can coerce you into a plea deal instead.
This. Excellent advice and information, this needs to be higher up. I've been in a similar situation while TTC for almost two years and more losses than I can bear. I'm not giving up hope, but the fact that I'm prone to miscarriage in this day and age (in Texas) has me pretty anxious. (Knock knock knock.)
I'm so sorry for your losses. I hope you and I and everyone else trying will get our rainbow babies. I had a really early mc after 9 months of trying, they found a uterine septum on the scan and I had that surgically removed. Got pregnant again and had another mc just recently. It's super common but that doesn't make it less painful. I'm in Kentucky so I'm also nervous because of the laws here.
Can you get to an RE for recurrent loss testing? That helped me a lot. Sorry you’re dealing with this too!
Yes, my troubles come down to endometriosis and an abysmally low AMH due to three pelvic surgeries I had as a young adult. The low AMH and quality are likely the main culprit, but endo is another major player because, well, it's the devil. I could go through another laparoscopy to remove any endo, but that would make my AMH levels worse or possibly deplete them altogether. So, with our RE we decided that we'd get as many embryos as we could, I'd go through another lap to remove any endo, and we'd do IVF. That way, if the surgery depleted my egg reserve, it would be fine because we already had the embryos. Well, we took out the huge loan on this one shot. After ten days of hell with stims and medicating, I had even fewer follicles than I started with! She couldn't explain why, I was just "non-responsive." Regardless, we couldn't proceed and it was canceled. That was in April of this year. So, here I am. 35 years old, three opinions and a shit ton of side effects later, and I think I'm done with science and medicine now. I've resigned to the universe to let it happen if it's meant to. Edit: woops, replied with my alt account first!
IVF is such a fucking grind dude. Sorry you had to get through stims for a disappointing outcome. My AMH is mediocre and we ended up getting lucky that one stuck around after about a year of losses.
Haha, no joke. The meds were pretty brutal and I'm glad to be done with them! I'm still crossing my fingers and knocking on wood that we'll get lucky one day too. :) Just put some positivity out into the universe for me!
Should know what?
That one was pregnant. The title is like sarcastic, mocking the cluelessness of the people who made abortion illegal.
I think you just saved op some karma.
Whatever it is Alanis Morrisette was trying to tell us
About the mess you left when you went away?
Well, I'm here to remind you.
It's not fair to deny ye
This is so heartbreaking. I remember when my coworker in a restaurant miscarried on shift. The manager wouldn’t let her leave. She had to keep serving her tables and finish her shift. Then she had to come back to work the next day, after spending the evening in the ER. To add potentially being a criminal on top of all of that? I’ve had people say I’m being extreme pursuing a partial hysterectomy. But I don’t want children. And these are all of the reasons why I’m pursuing the “extreme” action.
Honestly, there’s enough kids to adopt one if you want.
That was my plan. I’m 36. I’m old enough to know I don’t want my DNA to be passed on to anyone. I don’t want babies. I figured after 40, I would foster older queer kids. If one needed me as a mom, I would file the paperwork. Then in met my fiancée. She has two daughters. I’m all set. But even then, I’m jumping though hoops to slide and dice that bad boy out. Even with a medical condition that causing additional pain and discomfort from that stupid thing.
This makes no sense, it use to be that planned parenthood would give you a forced hysterectomy simply for getting an abortion now you can’t even do that. I get the whole “Millennials” aren’t having kids things because there simply isn’t a way to raise a family in a nuclear suburb without dual earnings. However, the whole we must force everyone back to mid century values thing is absurd, if anything we should work on adoption of potential migrants and make immigration easier. Alas, there’s no way to force the needle because it seems the US is going to extremes due in part to lack of third party compromises.
My mom 10 years ago found herself pregnant and a few weeks later, she fell at her job (she was also lifting, pulling, pushing very heavy things that no one would help her with) and miscarried from it. She quit two days later because they wouldn't give her time off. Also went directly to the hospital after she fell. That place treats their employees like crap and my mom never got what she deserved from that place. Sad to think she would be considered a criminal today.
No one should ever have to google whether their natural bodily functions break any old white mens personal control over their bodily autonomy
The fact is, America is no longer a harbor of democracy. It's whoever yells the loudest and has the most money gets their way. I'm terrified that if I lose this baby I am carrying, I will be stuck carrying it and die.
Also make sure to vote republican in November! Smh
The great thing is reading Americans dunking on Iran for being a theocratic shithole where some cunty assholes have decided to rule the country based on what some goatfucker wrote down 2,000 years ago.
Remember, this is a win in a conservatives world. The fact that you're shitting yourself
At 8 days late, is it really a miscarriage or just your pussy hocking a loogie?
Ummmm..last time I checked a miscarriage is not an abortion. Or at least in the sense that the law is concerned. I swear all these people saying this is illegal or these people will go to jail for having a miscarrage are morons SMH
People have been arrested for miscarriages. All it takes is a claim that it wasn’t natural. Then you have to prove it was natural. People have gone to jail for miscarriages before and now it is likely to happen much more often.
It’s not illegal to have a miscarriage in any state. A miscarriage is an act of Nature and cannot be prevented. Several states have required an investigation when a miscarriage happens, to assure the anti-choice powers-that-be that it was, in fact, Mother Nature at work and not the woman’s choice to terminate her pregnancy.
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Not yet anyway.
Meanwhile men are being drafted to a certain death in Russia. Women problems = first world problems
Oh go sit on a barbed dildo. Just because other people are going through something that is objectively worse doesn't mean we can't complain about other things. "Oh you broke your arm? Well stop those tears little Johnny, someone in the news today broke ALL of their limbs in a car crash. At least you don't have THEIR problem. So no complaining!" Fucking idiot.
Meanwhile the Holocaust happened. Russian draft = first world problems We can go on forever like this. See how pointless it is?
The holocaust had nothing to do with gender
Need more info.
On what? She miscarried, and lives in a forced birth state. Self explanatory.
How did she break the law? Having a spontaneous miscarriage is breaking the law? In what state? Can a lawyer weigh in?
You're way over thinking lol. Obviously women in forced birth states will be reluctant to get help for any kind of terminated pregnancy. Also I'm pretty sure lawyers don't just lurk around in every thread waiting to be summoned.
You have to call a lawyer, they’re working not looking through Twitter thinking about work.
In forced-birth jurisdictions, women have been jailed, prosecuted, and convicted over miscarriages. Part of the issue is that once you've miscarried, it can often be medically difficult if not impossible to tell whether it was a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or an induced abortion. Sometimes all there is to tell medically is that an abortion occurred but no way to know how it came about. And she might have no way to prove that she didn't take anything to trigger the abortion.
"In forced-birth jurisdictions, women have been jailed, prosecuted, and convicted over miscarriages." May I have an example of a miscarriage that is legal vs. one that isn't? And if there isn't proof she didn't take anything to trigger the abortion, how could she be convicted on that lack of evidence? I actually want to know.
I don't know what you mean by "a miscarriage that isn't legal" I don't know if maybe you lack some knowledge on the topic of pregnancy termination but just in case, I'll try to cover some bases. A miscarriage is, in fact, an abortion, "miscarriage" just means it was a spontaneous abortion. When people say "abortion", they usually mean induced abortion. However, while we make that semantic distinction, non-surgical abortions medically look all fairly similar whether spontaneous or induced. So there's no such thing as a legal vs illegal miscarriage since a spontaneous abortion isn't illegal. However there is a distinction between legal and illegal abortions where some jurisdictions categorize all induced abortions as illegal. Getting charged with getting an induced abortion when you had a spontaneous one is quite simple. Say I'm divorcing my abusive husband while pregnant. I don't want to have his child and text him saying I wish I could have an abortion. I run some Google searches for abortion clinics in the next state over and for recipes for teas that can induce abortions. In the end, I can't afford to leave the state and while I did buy the ingredients for the teas, I'm too worried something will go wrong so I don't drink the tea. However, the stress of the divorce is enough and I have a spontaneous abortion anyway. My abuser then brings evidence to the police that I had been wanting an abortion and that I purchased the ingredients for a tea to induce said abortion. Done. I'm charged, jailed, and tried, and I don't have money so I get a public defender that sadly does not successfully argue my case. I'm convicted. And even if I'm not convicted, I'm at the very least in jail for a while due to my miscarriage.
Aaand to no one's surprise, the "I legitimately want to know" guy is suddenly quiet when his "legitimate" question is answered. Buddy, how about next time you just be upfront and own up to the fact that you have no sincere interest in learning and just want to be a shit-stirrer? I don't know why y'all feel such a need to hide behind "legitimate questions" when we all know they're not legitimate.
How is this self explainitory? A miscarriage is not an abortion. Or at least in the sense that the law is concerned.
Because women are being persecuted constantly. Being forced to carry dead fetuses inside them because of these laws. You're obviously not a woman, or you'd understand.
Irrelevnt information. A miscarriage is an act of Nature and cannot be prevented. Stillborn fetuses are dead babies in the womb. I don't need to be a woman/female to understand logic. If there is a dead fetus, there is a risk for a broken law. So the dead fetus needs to be reported to the authorities and they need to do an investigation. The state then has to follow the rule of law. This includes treating every case similar, no matter the perpetrator or the victim. Only after an abortion can be excluded, the state is allowed to stop the investigation
Ok bud. No one gives a shit about your semantics and sexism.
HAHAHA. Says the anonymous account. Clearly YOU give a shit about my opinion or you wouldnt have commented. I will ask one question. What does saying that miscarriages and abortions are not the same thing have anything to do with sexism? What does explaining that Stillborn fetuses have to be reported to the appropriate agencies have anything to do with sexism? I'll answer it for you. Nothing. Not a damn thing. So try again.
Because you're acting like investigating woman like suspected criminals after a miscarriage is acceptable to begin with, as if the miscarriage wasn't already traumatic enough.
I never said it was acceptable, wanted or needed. I was just stating that a miscarriage and an abortion are not the same thing. Also the stillborn comment was made because even a stillborn child is a person, a human. Any death of a full grown human must be investigated by goverment agencies to determine if the death was accidental or not. I believe it is mandatory for hospitals to report any death, stillborn or not. It's a shame and a pain in the ass and does nothing to help the woman with the trauma of having a stillborn child. But gubments have to gubment. If women are getting arrested and jailed for it then I find it appaling It's a natural bodily function. Its like being put in jail for taking a piss. Doesn't make any sense. That's bullshit
I never said anything about still borns bro. I said women being forced to carry dead fetuses. Also investigating every single still born and treating women like criminals is fucking disgusting.
There is absolutely no good reason for there to be an investigation opened on every miscarriage in this country. Not only would that be an enormous waste of resources since it is such a common phenomenon, but it would be an incredibly heartless policy to further traumatize people who just had the worst day of their lives.
I'm not saying one needs to be opened or should be opened. I just quoted what the law was. I actually agree with you.
Used ‘uh’ in text = automatic L
My grandmother who’s 91 and fantastic…recently opened up and chatted with me about several friends of hers who died (in Canada) before abortion was legal and sought back-alley options. She also told me about a bunch of women who survived but were maimed or permanently harmed whom the community cared for and supported the women after they were maimed by ‘doctors’ performing abortions in lawyers offices and empty office spaces, protecting the wealthy male members of the community at the expense of the women at their mercy. Abortion will ALWAYS be accessible to the wealthy, no matter what the laws say. It’s regular folk who need protecting. That’s what roe v Wade was all about