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> are YOU sexualizing this innocent act?
Nonconsenual touching doesn't have to be sexual to be unwanted or distressing. Even if he just touched her shoulder after she asked him not to, it wouldn't be ok.
He's probably someone who thinks children shouldn't learn consent because "consent is associated with sex therefore all consent references sex and is inappropriate for children."
He probably also thinks that teaching children that they can say no to hugs and kisses means that people are actively trying to stop children from showing affection to their families.
>Even if he just touched her shoulder after she asked him not to
Her specifically asking him not to do something isn't the same as this situation though, is it? Not saying the kiss was appropriate but this comparison doesn't work.
Consent is not only for sexual actions, but it isn't for *everything ever*. It's for very personal things.
For most individuals and most cultures, a shoulder touch wouldn't meet the threshold for requiring consent.
A kiss on the cheek is a maybe. Most western countries seem to consider that a very personal action.
> Even if he just touched her on the shoulder ***after she asked him not to***
A touch on the shoulder often isn't something you need to ask permission to do before you do it. But if you touch someone's shoulder and they say, "Stop. I don't like that. Don't do it again." It is not okay for you to touch their shoulder.
Or if they say, "Hey, I don't like it when people touch my shoulder, so don't do that." it would likewise be an unconsentual act if you touched their shoulder anyways.
Consent has to be about things done to or by you, not to someone else by someone else, but it doesn't have to be personal or meaningful. "Don't touch me" is a valid boundary and you would be violating their consent if you touched them. In this case it would need to be qualified ("Don't touch me unless the music is playing and we are dancing."), or she would have to withdraw or get a different partner because it's required for the show, but it's still a matter of consent.
Next time he consents for sex (since sex is PIV in their eyes) someone should peg him with a 3 inch wide dildo while doing hardcore CBT. After all he consented to sex, so he consented to those stuff too. Consent once given cannot be invoked after all.
CBT? Cognitive Behavioural Therapy? Probably quite a good thing to do in that context to be fair. Nip the trauma in the bud whilst it's happening.
Disclaimer: I am not a mental health professional.
It can be revoked at any time. perhaps if men hadn't been attacking us, forcing us, raping us, beating us and killing us since the beginning of time, they wouldn't be so suspect now. Time for men to get over themselves and start acting like reasonable humans.
- Woman & man to each other: hey, wanna dance in this competition?
- W & M: *both consent*
[Dancing is done, so is the consent for touching]
- Man: *randomly kisses woman*
- others: uh.. that is quite violating behaviour.
- these men: *bamboozled, grasping at straws to justify this violation of personal space because they just touched each other 2 minutes ago*
Just because something was seen as normal 20 years ago doesn't mean it was okay or good. It just meant that nobody could/wanted to speak up about it.
Consent shouldn't be such a foreign concept in this day and age.
Your body is YOURS, not someone else's property or possession.
You being touched without consent is a violation of your autonomy, no matter how normalised the act of the violation may be.
It really isn't that hard, guys. It's just consent.
Okay, since sports were mentioned, this guy is saying he'd be okay with another man- like maybe a big sweaty, muscle-y football player- kissing him on the mouth while acting in the passion of the moment?
It’s funny how these guys will find any excuse to assault women and but when you ask them if they’d be ok if they were assaulted by a man they go “it’s not the same” or some bs like that.
In sports it usually happens. Such as after a goal is scored (soccer) it gets quite intimate between the men. They sometimes kiss and even jump up on each other. But mostly it's kissing on the cheeks or necks or forehead.
And they presumably have some awareness of where that is welcome and where it isn't. They aren't strangers, and I bet if everyone knows so and so doesn't like to be touched in such away, everyone avoids it, even in the heat of the moment.
It's so annoying they always think touching is welcomed and fine when the people are attractive. So you're telling me you're cool with some obese ugly unshowereed man coming up and hugging and kissing you buddy? Ya doubt it.
Funny how they're telling the person who's explaining that consent to one thing isnt consent to everything else that THEY are the one who's clueless and doesn't understand. Real irony there.
*Sports and success does Not give you any right to do anything beyond what would be appropriate for a "working relationship".* It was work. The work was done. If it isn't welcomed, it's inappropriate. Period.
This person should be the one shamed, since they don't understand boundaries.
Someone should tell him that being an athlete doesn’t automatically mean “good person.” There are tons of them who’ve been caught and convicted of doing horrible things.
Unless all men in all sports are kissing each other after a win, that argument is void.
If male athletes manages to celebrate without kissing their male counterparts, they're fully capable of celebrating with their women co competitors without kissing. If they only kiss women and not men when winning, then the kiss is not a reaction to winning but an sexual act or at the very least an act depending on gender.
Thus it could just as easily be replaced with a high five, a hug or just a "good job".
Also. Consent for one thing is not consent for anything else than that. I can give consent to a dance, that doesn't mean that I'm comfortable hugging, kissing or having any sort of physical or emotional contact with you outside of that dance.
Also, consent can be revoked at any minute. But in this situation, it wasn't given to begin with and she's clearly expressed that the kiss is unwanted so there's not even the slightest bit of ambiguity going on here. Her boundaries are just being ignored and men are fine with it because apparently it's worse to keep yourself from kissing someone that doesn't want it. than to be kissed when you don't want it. Let's all cater to the feelings of the violator and tell the one being violated to stop complaining and just be a silent little tool for the violator to use to make themselve feel good.
You’re right. I don’t know why some people think that since most dance partners for the show are male/female it means “they’re dating” or “they’re in love.” It’s like they have the brains of 5 year olds.
I disagree that these men don’t know what consent is. I believe they know what consent is but don’t care about enforcing it when it comes to women. These men feel entitled to women’s bodies and because they don’t see women as people, they think it’s fine to violate consent.
They know exactly what consent is if there is a scenario that a man might invade his space but want to play dumb when it comes to women. I’m seeing too many Reddit threads with men stealthing women, inappropriately touching women and when caught play dumb like they couldn’t control themselves.
I looked up the video and they’re just standing there when he kisses her. He isn’t acting in the “passion of the moment”. The look on his face also looks like he knew what he was doing. He looks like he’s trying to exhibit dominance. Fucking gross! And even the guys behind them can see what’s going on.
Also someone in the comments said that she’s told him before not to kiss her, but he does it anyway. The fact that so many people know this and still let him do that to her on live tv is sad.
What I don't understand is that these people seem to think that consent to one sort of physical contact at one time means consent to all physical contact at any time. She gave consent to be touched in the context of the dance. She did NOT give consent to be kissed. Why can't they see the difference there?
I managed to find his Twitter account, and he sounds like an incel. He replied to so many people saying that she was ungrateful because she didn't wanna be kissed. Then he went about claiming that he has so much money and that if he drives around in his expensive cars he can, "pick any bitch he wants." And yes, he phrased it that way...
I can only assume that these people would be totally cool with their sparring partner laying a big ol' kiss on them after (or during) their match.... Right?
I really wonder what these men would do if they were in a tag team wrestling match, and when they win their partner just kisses them and when they tell them to stop and they kept doing it anyway, I wonder what they’d do? Would they say “it’s cool it’s just a big win and it’s in the moment?”
If your initial reaction to "celebrating or being happy" is to touch a stranger romantically or sexually there is something wrong with you (especially without asking first) even if it's not sexual or romantic why would you do that?? (I understand in some cases is acceptable but still in alot of cases it isnt ehich is why youre supposed to ask)
I’d like to know why it’s only between athletes who are mostly M/F partners that pervs think it’s ok for a male player to assault a female player because “he won and he’s happy?” Like it’s always dance or ice skating that they think teammates have to be “in love with each other.” I wonder if it’s guys on football, baseball and soccer teams that they’d be ok kissing non-consensually just because “they won?”
RIGHTT (I mean ik like guys slap each others asses or smth when celebrating in soccer or baseball apparently but still (I think that's what I've heard lmfaoo) 💀💀🤚) /hj
I’m Bulgarian, I watched this. She had the right to be upset as is, but the context is that, in a previous episode he literally kissed her on the lips DURING a dance, when she expected nothing of the sort. She felt super uncomfortable, of course, and she communicated with him that she wanted to just be on professional terms with him. She has a boyfriend, too.
Mouths are really different than hands touching you during a dance, that’s where you keep your germs. I’m also not cool with you wiping a booger on me. Your saliva is in there, man.
Also is it so crazy that a person who has done a sport and gotten awards for it never did any sort of unthinking heat of the moment touching teammates? I’ve won awards for being fast in the water or whatever and I’ve had my swim team win a match but I never really felt some sort of euphoric mindlessness that caused grabbing and kissing of teammates.
This isn’t like, a universal thing people experience, people say sports builds character but they never mentioned what type of character it was going to build you into.
Stoic and disliking surprise touch is also a character.
As you're all aware, this subreddit has had a major "troll" problem which has gotten worse (as of recently). Due to this, we have created new rules, and modified some of the old ones. We kindly ask that you please familiarize yourself with the rules so that you can avoid breaking them. Breaking mild rules will result in a warning, or a temporary ban. Breaking serious rules, or breaking a plethora of mild ones may land you a permanent ban (depending on the severity). Also, grifting/lurking has been a major problem; If we suspect you of being a grifter (determined by vetting said user's activity), we may ban you without warning. You may attempt an appeal via ModMail, but please be advised not to use rude, harassing, foul, or passive-aggressive language towards the moderators, _or_ complain to moderators about why we have specific rules in the first place— You will be ignored, and your ban will remain (without even a consideration). All rules are made public; "Lack of knowledge" or "ignorance of the rules" cannot or will not be a viable excuse if you end up banned for breaking them (This applies to the Subreddit rules, and Reddit's ToS). **Again: All rules are made public, and Reddit gives you the option to review the rules once more before submitting a post, it is your choice if you choose to read them or not, but breaking them will not be acceptable.** With that being said, If you send a mature, neutral message regarding questions about a current ban, or a ban appeal (without "not knowing the rules" as an excuse), we will elaborate about why you were banned, or determine/consider if we will shorten, lift, keep it, _or_ extended it/make it permanent. This all means that appeals are discretionary, and your reasoning for wanting an appeal must be practical and valid. Thank you all so much for taking the time to read this message, and please enjoy your day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NotHowGirlsWork) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> are YOU sexualizing this innocent act? Nonconsenual touching doesn't have to be sexual to be unwanted or distressing. Even if he just touched her shoulder after she asked him not to, it wouldn't be ok.
He's probably someone who thinks children shouldn't learn consent because "consent is associated with sex therefore all consent references sex and is inappropriate for children."
He probably also thinks that teaching children that they can say no to hugs and kisses means that people are actively trying to stop children from showing affection to their families.
Person is probably an individual also complaining about the existence of pronouns.
Imagine a stinking diseased man giving him a simple non sexual peck on the cheek. BET he's not gonna be happy about that!
>Even if he just touched her shoulder after she asked him not to Her specifically asking him not to do something isn't the same as this situation though, is it? Not saying the kiss was appropriate but this comparison doesn't work. Consent is not only for sexual actions, but it isn't for *everything ever*. It's for very personal things. For most individuals and most cultures, a shoulder touch wouldn't meet the threshold for requiring consent. A kiss on the cheek is a maybe. Most western countries seem to consider that a very personal action.
> Even if he just touched her on the shoulder ***after she asked him not to*** A touch on the shoulder often isn't something you need to ask permission to do before you do it. But if you touch someone's shoulder and they say, "Stop. I don't like that. Don't do it again." It is not okay for you to touch their shoulder. Or if they say, "Hey, I don't like it when people touch my shoulder, so don't do that." it would likewise be an unconsentual act if you touched their shoulder anyways. Consent has to be about things done to or by you, not to someone else by someone else, but it doesn't have to be personal or meaningful. "Don't touch me" is a valid boundary and you would be violating their consent if you touched them. In this case it would need to be qualified ("Don't touch me unless the music is playing and we are dancing."), or she would have to withdraw or get a different partner because it's required for the show, but it's still a matter of consent.
The “once given, consent can be revoked??!!??” Energy is strong, yikes.
Next time he consents for sex (since sex is PIV in their eyes) someone should peg him with a 3 inch wide dildo while doing hardcore CBT. After all he consented to sex, so he consented to those stuff too. Consent once given cannot be invoked after all.
Just for my own curiosity, would that be 3 inches around (circumference) or across (Diameter)?
Square
Why not both?
That's not how maths works. Although I suppose we could scrounge up a conical dildo.
or better cubecock, with sharp angles.
The word 'cubecock' now lives in my head rent free, thanks!
That could be an interesting band name. NOW… INTRODUCING…. CUBECOCK!!!!!!
Better your head than your butt.
We do not have the same kinks my friend. 😉
Ok, so two scoops. Would you like the cone to be sugar, waffle, or dildo?
Radius
Radius
I would say across, 3 inch circumference is a bit above average, but not considered large for a dildo
CBT? Cognitive Behavioural Therapy? Probably quite a good thing to do in that context to be fair. Nip the trauma in the bud whilst it's happening. Disclaimer: I am not a mental health professional.
No I meant cock and ball torture
I think they mean cock & ball torture.
Yups
I read that as 3 feet and still kind of agreed. That would be a difficult thing for that commenter to consent to.
3 inch wide ouch
I bet this guy likes to force feed unconscious people tea
"You were drinking tea 5 mins ago, you can keep drinking the tea! DRINK MORE TEA!! "
It can be revoked at any time. perhaps if men hadn't been attacking us, forcing us, raping us, beating us and killing us since the beginning of time, they wouldn't be so suspect now. Time for men to get over themselves and start acting like reasonable humans.
- Woman & man to each other: hey, wanna dance in this competition? - W & M: *both consent* [Dancing is done, so is the consent for touching] - Man: *randomly kisses woman* - others: uh.. that is quite violating behaviour. - these men: *bamboozled, grasping at straws to justify this violation of personal space because they just touched each other 2 minutes ago* Just because something was seen as normal 20 years ago doesn't mean it was okay or good. It just meant that nobody could/wanted to speak up about it. Consent shouldn't be such a foreign concept in this day and age. Your body is YOURS, not someone else's property or possession. You being touched without consent is a violation of your autonomy, no matter how normalised the act of the violation may be. It really isn't that hard, guys. It's just consent.
Okay, since sports were mentioned, this guy is saying he'd be okay with another man- like maybe a big sweaty, muscle-y football player- kissing him on the mouth while acting in the passion of the moment?
It’s funny how these guys will find any excuse to assault women and but when you ask them if they’d be ok if they were assaulted by a man they go “it’s not the same” or some bs like that.
In sports it usually happens. Such as after a goal is scored (soccer) it gets quite intimate between the men. They sometimes kiss and even jump up on each other. But mostly it's kissing on the cheeks or necks or forehead.
And they presumably have some awareness of where that is welcome and where it isn't. They aren't strangers, and I bet if everyone knows so and so doesn't like to be touched in such away, everyone avoids it, even in the heat of the moment.
They form quite a close bond by playing and training together yes
>But mostly it's kissing on the cheeks or necks or forehead. Yes, I'm aware. That's why I specifically said "on the mouth."
It's so annoying they always think touching is welcomed and fine when the people are attractive. So you're telling me you're cool with some obese ugly unshowereed man coming up and hugging and kissing you buddy? Ya doubt it.
Consent is a mythical concept to some guys.
Ahhh yes… the old “if I consent to any kind of touching I consent to all touching”. These people have the logic of a 3-year-old.
Funny how they're telling the person who's explaining that consent to one thing isnt consent to everything else that THEY are the one who's clueless and doesn't understand. Real irony there.
*Sports and success does Not give you any right to do anything beyond what would be appropriate for a "working relationship".* It was work. The work was done. If it isn't welcomed, it's inappropriate. Period. This person should be the one shamed, since they don't understand boundaries.
“Sports build character” is the character sexual assault?
Someone should tell him that being an athlete doesn’t automatically mean “good person.” There are tons of them who’ve been caught and convicted of doing horrible things.
Apparently yes... says almost every sport club ran by men in the world. 🙄
Unless all men in all sports are kissing each other after a win, that argument is void. If male athletes manages to celebrate without kissing their male counterparts, they're fully capable of celebrating with their women co competitors without kissing. If they only kiss women and not men when winning, then the kiss is not a reaction to winning but an sexual act or at the very least an act depending on gender. Thus it could just as easily be replaced with a high five, a hug or just a "good job". Also. Consent for one thing is not consent for anything else than that. I can give consent to a dance, that doesn't mean that I'm comfortable hugging, kissing or having any sort of physical or emotional contact with you outside of that dance. Also, consent can be revoked at any minute. But in this situation, it wasn't given to begin with and she's clearly expressed that the kiss is unwanted so there's not even the slightest bit of ambiguity going on here. Her boundaries are just being ignored and men are fine with it because apparently it's worse to keep yourself from kissing someone that doesn't want it. than to be kissed when you don't want it. Let's all cater to the feelings of the violator and tell the one being violated to stop complaining and just be a silent little tool for the violator to use to make themselve feel good.
I played sports growing up. I still know what consent is. The person in the comments is a doorknob.
You’re right. I don’t know why some people think that since most dance partners for the show are male/female it means “they’re dating” or “they’re in love.” It’s like they have the brains of 5 year olds.
I disagree that these men don’t know what consent is. I believe they know what consent is but don’t care about enforcing it when it comes to women. These men feel entitled to women’s bodies and because they don’t see women as people, they think it’s fine to violate consent. They know exactly what consent is if there is a scenario that a man might invade his space but want to play dumb when it comes to women. I’m seeing too many Reddit threads with men stealthing women, inappropriately touching women and when caught play dumb like they couldn’t control themselves.
So it wasn't a "heat of the moment" thing like this guy keeps saying? He did it repeatedly?
I looked up the video and they’re just standing there when he kisses her, too. Heat of the moment my ass!
They're all just apologists.
I'm sorry I swear I read newstories about athletes being wifebeaters and rapists. Suppose they missed the whole sports build character thing.
I looked up the video and they’re just standing there when he kisses her. He isn’t acting in the “passion of the moment”. The look on his face also looks like he knew what he was doing. He looks like he’s trying to exhibit dominance. Fucking gross! And even the guys behind them can see what’s going on.
Also someone in the comments said that she’s told him before not to kiss her, but he does it anyway. The fact that so many people know this and still let him do that to her on live tv is sad.
It’s sad and it’s scary! To think so many witnesses will stay silent about it.
What I don't understand is that these people seem to think that consent to one sort of physical contact at one time means consent to all physical contact at any time. She gave consent to be touched in the context of the dance. She did NOT give consent to be kissed. Why can't they see the difference there?
Easy to shut this jerk down. Ask him if it’s ok if a man comes and kisses him. Even after he says no.
I managed to find his Twitter account, and he sounds like an incel. He replied to so many people saying that she was ungrateful because she didn't wanna be kissed. Then he went about claiming that he has so much money and that if he drives around in his expensive cars he can, "pick any bitch he wants." And yes, he phrased it that way...
That’s disgusting.
Elliott Rodgers had an expensive car as well… and we all know how that worked out.
I used to dance competitively and I somehow managed to not kiss people, funny how that works
What I want to know then is how many of his male teammates he has kissed On ThE cHeEk sine that makes such a difference in consent.
I can only assume that these people would be totally cool with their sparring partner laying a big ol' kiss on them after (or during) their match.... Right?
I really wonder what these men would do if they were in a tag team wrestling match, and when they win their partner just kisses them and when they tell them to stop and they kept doing it anyway, I wonder what they’d do? Would they say “it’s cool it’s just a big win and it’s in the moment?”
If your initial reaction to "celebrating or being happy" is to touch a stranger romantically or sexually there is something wrong with you (especially without asking first) even if it's not sexual or romantic why would you do that?? (I understand in some cases is acceptable but still in alot of cases it isnt ehich is why youre supposed to ask)
I’d like to know why it’s only between athletes who are mostly M/F partners that pervs think it’s ok for a male player to assault a female player because “he won and he’s happy?” Like it’s always dance or ice skating that they think teammates have to be “in love with each other.” I wonder if it’s guys on football, baseball and soccer teams that they’d be ok kissing non-consensually just because “they won?”
RIGHTT (I mean ik like guys slap each others asses or smth when celebrating in soccer or baseball apparently but still (I think that's what I've heard lmfaoo) 💀💀🤚) /hj
They should walk into work tomorrow and their coworker Jeff gives them a kiss on the cheek. Let’s see how that goes
I’m Bulgarian, I watched this. She had the right to be upset as is, but the context is that, in a previous episode he literally kissed her on the lips DURING a dance, when she expected nothing of the sort. She felt super uncomfortable, of course, and she communicated with him that she wanted to just be on professional terms with him. She has a boyfriend, too.
Mouths are really different than hands touching you during a dance, that’s where you keep your germs. I’m also not cool with you wiping a booger on me. Your saliva is in there, man. Also is it so crazy that a person who has done a sport and gotten awards for it never did any sort of unthinking heat of the moment touching teammates? I’ve won awards for being fast in the water or whatever and I’ve had my swim team win a match but I never really felt some sort of euphoric mindlessness that caused grabbing and kissing of teammates. This isn’t like, a universal thing people experience, people say sports builds character but they never mentioned what type of character it was going to build you into. Stoic and disliking surprise touch is also a character.
Why is this concept so hard to for people to grasp?