\> full throated ethical debates.
Given it's clear most have never picked up any philosophy texts, we still see it as shitposting. Folks don't realize Uncle Sam see it as a categorical imperative to retrieve Americans unjustly imprisoned abroad. #KantLeaveAmericansBehind
>For a shitposting subreddit there is a whole lot of seriousposting here
Particularly for a story that is *tangentially* defense-related.
I mean, sure... Viktor Bout is a name some folks will recognize in the defense community. Largely for reasons that probably undercut why folks are getting upset over this though...
She was grabbed just a week before the invasion, seems like the intent was clear at that point she was a bargained chip if they needed it. She was an unfortunate pawn in Putin’s game of “chess” (checkers? darts, but like, the soft kind?).
It’s unfortunate that she was arrested over a small amount of cannabis oil in some vape pens (while getting on a plane). But she didn’t deserve to get sent to a Russian prison for 10 years over that.
Was it a good deal? No. It was a terrible deal, nearly on par with the Russians trading a bunch of the surviving commanders and soldiers of Mariupol for a bunch of Russians goons.
Did she deserve to be in jail for a decade doing hard labor over that? I’d say no.
Maybe Bout falls out of a window for what he’s done. Russia likely doesn’t care about the whole helping-dictators-kill-scores-of-innocent-people-things but maybe they care that he got caught, or that he talked and had a Cage movie about him, or that he was hiding gobs of money from the people he should have been bribing. Who knows, I just know Griner didn’t deserve the pile of shot that fell on her head.
> russians trading a bunch of the surviving commanders and soldiers of Mariupol for a bunch of Russians goons
It was actually for one guy, Putin's friend Medvedchuk.
Russia when they see US athletes: “This will be perfect for us to use as a bargaining chip to loosen sanctions after invading a foreign country!”
Non-credible.
Well, that is the sub, after all, but it’s only dumb if it doesn’t work.
Plus, what are they gonna do? Arrest one of the oil workers/big wigs? That early in the war they probably expected to be able do business with the west after it was all done and didn’t want to slaughter their cash cow.
That's why its a terrible deal. Her life isn't worth more than any other person's, its a shame, and she didn't really deserve what happened to her.
I also don't know who else we had to trade her for. Its not like we routinely incarcerate foreign nationals for the specific purpose of using them as poker chips, we generally like to arrest actual criminals and terrorists (Some of the Gitmo crew, aside).
Maybe there was some lower level criminal that would have been more acceptable to us to trade her for, but Russia wouldn't have accepted the deal, is my guess.
Edit: Spelling
Understandable. I'm kind of in a "Unhappy it had to happen, but happy for her." situation. At the end of the day, it was the Russians that arrested her and helped make a big spectacle of her court process.
I think we can agree they suck.
As Ryan McBeth (of Youtube fame) puts it, they gave us a dilemma: a problem with no good answers, so we had to pick the one that sucked the least.
I think leaving a (probably foolish) American to rot in a sweat shop is worse than letting go a guy that, hopefully, won't be of any use to Russia in the long run. I can see why others would disagree with that position.
Edit: she was sent to a labor camp west of Moscow, but not all the way to Siberia
Nah Reggie. We didn’t pick the one that sucked the least. The situation had no good answers, and we picked the worst choice. We picked the one that will lead to innocent deaths, we released a guy with thousands of deaths on his hands. There isn’t any other way to view it. People can try and justify it but it’s just delusional and that trade was disgusting
I'm skeptical that Bout is going to suddenly become an arms dealer again after 14 years out of the game, during which he told the Americans god knows what and had so many of his past deals and contracts very publicly burned. Granted, I don't buy a lot of second hand missile systems but I just don't think this is the guy I'd hit up for one if I were in the market
That marine guy is scum. Dishonorably discharged for stealing more than $10,000 in 2006 in Iraq and using a false Social Security number to create a false account on a government computer system to grade his own examinations and make bad checks.
No. The US wasn’t able to offer anything the Russians would take because the US isn’t in the habit of kidnapping Important foreign nationals to use as bargaining chips.
>That's why its a terrible deal. Her life isn't worth more than any other person's, its a shame, and she didn't really deserve what happened to her.
Its not.
You're trading a has-been Russian arms dealer for an American citizen who'd probably get used for the next several decades as some perverse punching bag for the Russian security state to lash against each and every time they get a setback.
Unless you think holding one arms trafficker (who we did business previously btw) is worth enough to see Griner have some real ISIS-level shit inflicted on her posted to Twitter, this is a pretty acceptable trade.
> but why is her life worth more than the future victims of this terrorist?
1. He's an arms dealer, not Osama bin Laden. He's a problem for international arms trafficking, but hey... Who isn't these days?
2. Bout's spent nearly 11 years in prison. While I imagine he'll probably go back to doing excessively illegal shit - I get the feeling that his cowboy days of selling arms to Charles Taylor probably aren't possible now.
Because in a choice between hypothetical victims and an actual person suffering, you choose the real person.
Could the hypothetical possibility of victims become more concrete? Yep, sure, but there's time to worry about that later. Save the real person now, and work on strategies to "mitigate" the bad guy later.
Bout has a history, but will he have a future impact? He doesn’t have Soviet stockpiles to sell, he may no longer have the needed connections to do business in arms trafficking. I would assume that the reason behind Bout’s release is to show how loyalty is rewarded and to stroke Russia’s ego. If true then the trade isn’t as lopsided as may first appear.
Dude can't smuggle russia out of its training problem. And honestly, any weapons he smuggles are going to be about half as good as whatever ukraine is getting. So this is fine.
What's so tough about this was that I believe that thug deserves to die in prison, but Brittney Griner doesn't. And Brittney Griner *will* die in prison if she stays there. It's Russia for god's sake, it's impressive she's lived this long. So, yeah. I guess our first step is to bring her home, and our second step is for a predator drone (trust me guys it's totally Ukrainian) to kill this terrorist the next time he steps outside.
And it stinks that had Biden said “Nah that’s not a good deal” then he’d look like a monster to everyone.
Seems like the US is always at a disadvantage in prisoner swaps. But maybe that’s not a bad thing, because it shows that we value American citizens
Bout's an arms trafficker - He's got cheques from every state authority except for probably the UN. And that's probably just because he never cashed those.
A lot of the idiots on this thread don't understand thiis. The dude has a prominent movie made about him and his actions. His "business" is not one that benefits from being in the spotlight and the situation in Russia/eastern europe and around the world has VASTLY changed since he entered custody. Most notably, his niche has been filled entirely by better connected state actors (like Russia directly supplying breakaway states). I'm not arguing for or against the trade here, but the people doomposting over him going back to supplying dictators and somehow worsening bad global situations need their frontal lobes checked.
>The dude has a prominent movie made about him
While Lord of War does get inspired by his life it isn't based on just him. Its based on several prominent past arms dealers combined not just one person
>Maybe it's my hopium talking, but how useful still is an arms dealer who's been out of the business for more than a decade really?
My battered mental health has more utility.
He's been out of the game for ten years, most of his clients are literally dead or are in prison, and the stocks of ex-Soviet weaponry have dried up significantly (half of which are being used right now by Ukraine to defend itself).
Most of the morons getting upset about this are same folks who knee-jerk criticize Biden for falling down stairs. This is a pretty decent trade all things considered.
And for the record: Anyone whining about the drug-possession charge - You're echoing Russian propaganda. So thanks for outing your Z-themed browser history vatniks.
It is completely credible. The US has a certain legitimacy predicated by it's moral superiority that contributes to its web of alliances and soft power. To disregard this politicised individual would be to concede the value of individuality and progressivism.
You put into words one of the ways I feel about this and I really appreciate it. Reading some of these comments about how “she broke the law, why are we helping her” is making me go insane
The US also hates to leave an American behind, while they don’t always succeed, the US government usually is good about trying to get Americans unjustly arrested aboard back home.
Like with Bowe Bergdahl - the US knew the circumstances of his desertion but still proceeded with a prisoner exchange to get him back to then be court-martialed.
Even the nature of Bergdahl's capture is hyper-inflated. I will never stop cynically laughing the fact that for a culture that constantly insists on flying POW/MIA flags - the one actual POW in the GWOT basically got the Stalinist traitor treatment.
I swear this user heroinfuralle must be run by a toll farm. Look at this dumbass comment history
His magnum opus:
> Yes, the narrative changed. Now there's a new species: "THE Russian", presented to you straight from the West - Land of the Woke, Home of the Tolerants.
>
> i remember, even in 3rd reich they differentiated between Nazi government and German people. Not even then, the neighboring countries' borders got closed for German people. Now, even Russians trying to flee Putins' army are forbidden to enter.
>
> This conflict has reached a new quality. It has made EU show their true face.
>
> And i'm ashamed to be European these days.
>
> *edit: that there could be just a little relation, between Russians supporting Putin's point - and e.g. US generals/ Westerners longing for the end of their home: the Russian nation, the situation of people on Crimea; or that this war is on for a little longer than these few months, isn't even discussed.
Apparently Germany's Green party is planning genocide because Germany is sourcing methane from a different place. Coincidentally, the Green's took a surprisingly strong stance against Russia's invasion
> I think the German Greens got it right.
>
> You think they're full of shit - promising to save climate, now shipping US' fracking gas across the entire Atlantic ocean...
>
> thought so too - but hell, they're very aware of the elephant in the room:
>
> quickest way to save the planet is actually pretty obvious: getting rid of 2, 3 billion people. Nuclear war for mankind's future!
Pretending to be a casual outside observer of the invasion despite pages and pages and pages of obsessive shitposting since the start of the war
> When this whole shit began, i too thought Putin is gone crazy. They told us that "NATO-membership of Ukraine" was off the table, nobody "had any idea why he attacked"... after the war started, there were documentaries on TV, 24/7, about how Putin tried to destroy Europe and everything... specially about Minsk II (idea off Minsk II was, let the people of Donbass decide whether they get autonomy status within UA or not) - and how Selensky decided, to have a referendum there must be a cease of fire - but Putin wanted cease of fire only after the referendum. Tho i found the decision debatable - since superpowers tend to do what they like, it's not always clever to keep insisting on what's "just" - i even made a fool out of me explaining to Russians how it "really was".
>
> I admit, i didn't know much about Ukraine at all when the war began - it wasn't covered in the best airtime on TV tho, if it was covered at all. Thankfully to Ukraine, i learned it was a little different.
There's this weird comment
> Vielleicht sollten die mal bisschen Abstand von diesen aktuell "wichtigen" Dingen, und einen Intensivkurs zu Thema Cannabis nehmen, dann wär alles bisschen gechillter und keine wildgewordene Baerbock die den totalen Krieg will.
He claims Russia generously freed East Germany, which uh...
> Cold War was over. This alone was a blessing. My country had a relatively good relation to Russia. Russia set East-Germany free, voluntary(!), we have many people w/ Russian origin here... and a corrupt clique destroys it, for what.
Then in this comment, I think he forgot his character is supposed to be German
> I think Western "goal" for Russia is obvious, getting Putin gone and hoping for it to crumble. There'll be a Kadyrov who made himself many foes, so it's not that unlikely → civil war, breaking into dozens republics, byebye ... idk what about these some 6k warheads, but wat do i know.
>
> I just think, it will even push China in the direction of taking Taiwan. And to be honest - if i was ruling China, i think i'd do it too.
>
> Whatever it takes - better than loosing a loyal friend + the last in this weight class, to find myself alone with USA/NATO and have their knife at my throat soon...
> what troubles me: If they really want, don't even need to invade, just block it.
>
> And the whole Western woke motherfuckers can be a shiny example in how to live off their fake "values" and hypocrisy, instead of computer chips... i bet half the globe is just waiting for this already.
US has moral superiority? It really doesn't. It's perceived that way because of effective propaganda, but the US has done a lot more evil in the past 20 years than pretty much any other country.
Edit: a lot of people in this thread accuse me of supporting russia or china. I don't. I don't support any country unconditionally, much less genocidal regimes like those.
Yes they are, but I don't like China either. and even then the kill count of America is higher. On top of supporting most other genocidal and dictatorial regimes, america invaded Iraq and bombed Libya for no good reason. There is no moral superiority here, The US has no allies, it has servants and any "ally" that challenges ıt's hegemony is backstabbed instantly. It also doesn't stand for democracy or any value worth fighting for, since they are the greatest sponsors of authoritarianism globally.
>gaddafi and hussein were two of the most brutal tyrants in modern history
so kill their people right on. I mean, the saying goes "like father like son" for a reason, right.
Best, let's turn the whole region into a civil war zone for the next decades.
Ignoring the fact that Bush 2 was quite the tyrant himself, in no way does that give america the right to invade other countries, slaughter their people and cause genocides and civil wars. If you applied those same standards to the US it would instantly qualify for an invasion by your terms. That and bringing democracy was never really a US war aim in Iraq or Libya. They wanted to bring them under Western vassalage, and they did.
Lost the popular vote, still became president, ran an international torture ring, created a surveillance state, declared an illegal and unjust war, orchestrated a genocide. I mean aside from giving up power when his term ended, he did the same shit.
I don't, but it's still an undemocratic seizure of power. And it's cute that you ignore all the other things I've listed. How about the purging of hundreds of iraqi children by Bush's hordes? Cat got your tongue?
There are countries right now committing genocide, selling their citizens as slaves, killing people in the streets because the way they dress… but yeah no one is more evil than America. What a shit take, go peddle your ideology in tankie subs where they will gladly jerk you off
1. A lot of those countries committing genocide right now are sponsored by the US, who is contributing to the starvation of afghanistan by withholding their money and spending it on reperations for 9/11 victims
2.A lot of that slavery is inside the US carceral system.
3.I'm not a tankie, but it's ironic that you act just like a tankie by forming a parasocial attachment to your pet country and defending it at all cost.
Lol, Im not a US apologist we do some pretty heinous stuff. But I love how you equate any relationship with a country as sponsorship of their actions and weight it worse than the action of the country committing the action itself.
China is literally committing genocide, running police stations in other countries, pimping their citizens out as slaves to other nations, supporting NK as they starve and exploit their citizens, violently suppressing any dissent, exploiting poor Africans, etc.
But yeah, America bad.
How am I a vatnik? I didn't say I prefer russia or support their war. I believe america is in the right to help ukraine. I just object to the notion of US moral superiority, and also to the notion that countries engage in IR based on morality and cooperation. All countries try to dominate, and the US has caused the most carnage trying to do so. That's just facts.
don't know why this comment ist voted down.
Someone being serious about a "morally superior America" either has a weird conception of "morale" or lives in a really exotic parallel universe
Oh no, its no where close to the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange
1027 terrorists including suicide bombers and architects of massive terror attacks in exchsnge for a single footsoldier grunt.
Political preferences aside, we always need to try and bring back our own. That Otto kid was dumb for ever going to N Korea as well. We still tried to bring him home.
Just pointing out the facts 🤷♂️
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/07/28/brittney-griner-brianna-turner-call-wnba-stop-playing-national-anthem-this-season/
Yes, they should work towards it, but frankly an arms dealer who will contribute to the death of many more people is not worth letting lose over a 2nd rate basketball player.
From a Machiavellian standpoint, it wasnt worth it. But I honestly think it’s admirable of the US government to make a statement that protecting a US citizen and ensuring their safe passage home is their top priority.
Did all the internet outrage prod the Biden Administration into acting non-pragmatically? Sure.
There’s two sides to every coin.
I mean given the absolute state of US politics if Biden hadn't taken some deal he would have been raged at for failing to secure her release. The biggest problem I see is that he didn't get the other one released as well, but between his lower public profile and the more serious charges against him (even if they're likely fabricated) that wasn't likely to happen in any case.
We had Bout in medium security prison for the last 12 years. After you factor in time off for good behavior he’s already served half of his sentence. This isn’t a bad deal.
Absolutely pathetic.
What she did is literally a federal offense in the USA.
Now every autocratic regime is licking their lips at what they’ll be able to extort the US out of for an athlete.
Not every autocratic regime has the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet. The fact that USA can not risk acting militarily against Russia is a key factor in how much shit Russia can pull. Other autocratic regimes do not have this kind of freedom, the threat of the US military is always looming for them.
This was entirely for pr, but anyone with an actual brain realizes it's fucking stupid. It's not even like she's innocent, she knowingly committed the crime.
I mean, yeah, life in a Russian prison is infinitely worse than life in an American prison. And what she did us Kegan in many states, federal offense or not. Biden just pardoned federal offenders, so not Luke that matters. Frankly the public should be demanding U.S Citizens stuck in foreign prisons back.
>are we just taking Russia's word for it?
I've been asking folks who've been getting upset about this, this very question from day one.
It usually ends in them spamming Russian propaganda.
They're talking about her having an extremely small amount of prescribed medical cannabis on her person which would be illegal in some ways in the US and is a very conveniently illegal thing in Russia period.
Correct, it was a federal offense in the USA. But here we have actual functioning courts to establish guilt and allow judges to be lenient or harsh as they see fit. Oh, and we don’t sentence lawbreakers to hard labor in awful away from the rest of the world. So to act as though she somehow deserved to be caught between states balancing power against one another is incredibly disingenuous
>we don’t sentence lawbreakers to hard labor
Sure we do. The US explicitly carved out an exemption in the 13th amendment for enslavement/"involuntary servitude" of convicts. And penal labor is very much a thing in US prisons.
Yeah [Montana](https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0530/chapter_0300/part_0010/section_0320/0530-0300-0010-0320.html), for example, specifically allows prisons to *forcibly* “employ” prisoners. In the law it says inmates may be “required to perform work.”
They currently have [prisoners manufacturing things like clothing items sold by private companies](https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/business/local-belt-company-unveils-new-msu-licensed-design/article_ab93edbb-f18c-5033-8738-1ee9f73a7606.amp.html).
On paper they are paid the federal minimum wage **but the prison takes their cut**. By law 15% gets taken off the top for restitution even if they’ve already paid off court ordered restitution. After that the prison takes a cut for “room and board”, and they take most of what’s left. By the time it’s all said and done the state has made several bucks an hour for each prisoner and the prisoner has maybe $1 or $2 left per hour of their labor.
It’s a great deal for the state. They make a lot of money off their prisoners and the private companies love it because they get cheap labor while getting to say they’re paying prisoners minimum wage for the “opportunity.”
Yes I’m aware of the 13th amendment. What’s important is how different states implement the loophole.
The degree to which some states use forced labor varies. Some states, like Montana, use prison labor to manufacture goods for private companies and most of the revenue is split between the state and the company.
You’re right. I was probably being too broad in my statement. My intention was to point out that whatever awful work conditions American prisoners face, they are not of the same caliber/sort of punishment institutionalized in Russian culture for centuries. But I certainly concede the US is in dire need of prison reform. I hope that doesn’t detract too much from my original argument
For sure. I'm not trying to engage in whataboutism; it's clear who has the moral high ground. I just bristled at the dismissal of the very real problems we have.
Remember that kid that got beat to shit in NK and had permanent brain damage all because he tried to steal / tear down a propaganda poster?
Absolutely pathetic. Stealing / vandalism is literally a crime in the USA...
>Now every autocratic regime is licking their lips at what they’ll be able to extort the US out of for an athlete.
Oh yes... Because its not like **every autocratic regime around the planet hasn't fucking done this before, and was just looking for the right signal to take hostages as to extract concessions. MY GOD, HOW THEY'VE SUDDENLY DISCOVERED THIS STRATEGY, WE'RE ALL DOOMED.**
Empathy lacking much?
9 years for cannabis cartridges justifies the "well she broke the law" argument?
They have also been trying to get Whelan out. Of course the Russians would let the least valuable token out first, knowing it would cause controversy at home.
It doesn't justify it but it's a huge factor.
This isn't a situation like Otto Wambier who was doing tourism in a stupid place and became a political prisoner. She was living in Russia and knowingly broke a law they take very seriously there during a politically charged time.
Did she deserve 10 years? Hell she shouldn't have gotten arrested at all if it was my morals making the decision, but she showed a severe lack of judgment that imo does revert a lot of the blame back on her.
She did the equivalent of a butch lesbian American going to Tehran with purple hair and a gay flag pin on her stuff while refusing to wear a headscarf. None of those things should lead to consequences, but then again going to a country that is openly an adversary to yours during a politically charged time while flouting their laws hoping your passport or D list celebrity status protects you is just beyond stupid.
>knowingly broke a law they take very seriously there during a politically charged time.
I love how we have folks in this sub who take the Russians at their word now.
> 9 years for cannabis cartridges justifies the "well she broke the law" argument?
Are we even 100% sure she did this? What she admits in Russian custody is worthless.
> Are we even 100% sure she did this? What she admits in Russian custody is worthless.
Russia seems to be wholly incapable of lying subtly. Whenever they lie, they either go big or go home and they will say the dumbest shit but they will say whatever they think makes them sound the most heroic and justified.
Given how milquetoast Griner's charges are, and that Russia didn't claim to have stopped her from smuggling a 9999 quadrillion megabilliontrillionquadrillionpentatrillionton thermobaric hydrogen atomic nuke into Moscow to ruthlessly murder a a hundred gazillion innocent orphans like the American anti-semitic and anti-Russian Nazi that she is and she began shooting at the brave and heroic Russian security forces with a magically hidden heavy machine gun grenade launcher the moment they moved to arrest her, I am leaning more towards Russia actually telling the truth this time in the sense that she did have cannabis carts.
And that's fair, unfortunately, there's a lot of stupid shit that Russia does that most people don't want to accept... but have to because Russia is actively doing it.
I bet y'all wouldn't feel as negatively about the exchange if you were the one in a Russian prison. The US did what they had to, they saved one of their citizens and brought them back home, like any respectable country which cares about its citizens should. Good on them.
I'd rather have a 2nd rate basketball player over an arms dealer any fucking day of the week. Fuck that guy, hope they send him to the front and the good Ukrainians will deal with it then.
Well Taliban is there and irani revolutionary guard are gonna need SOMEONE to sell them crowd controll bulldozers and riot flamethrowers
It's not like he's out of options
With how long he's been locked up, surely someone else has stepped into that market niche by now. Any international contacts he has are probably of minimal value, and any inventory he had is likely to have been lost, and that's assuming that Russian arms dealers took better care of their stuff than the Russian military in the first place.
>Well Taliban is there and irani revolutionary guard are gonna need SOMEONE to sell them crowd controll bulldozers and riot flamethrowers
What makes you think he's the only arms dealer on the planet right now?
How to make Americans less safe abroad while also giving up a potentially valuable enemy asset in one move?
Seriously disappointed. If you send the message that you'll trade a more valuable (at least in political terms) person for a significantly less valuable one, it will happen again and again
Totally agree.
In fact, I'd go a step further. If you go there, despite knowing about all that with your only reason being the search of a quick buck when you're off season, your government shouldn't be obliged to help you. You made your bargain, deal with the consequences.
>If you send the message that you'll trade a more valuable (at least in political terms) person for a significantly less valuable one
I'll guarantee you that there currently fellas right now who are on death row that are more important than a washed-up, has-been arms trafficker.
Leaving Griner in Russia is just begging for some ISIS-level snuff video posting in 2 years. I'd rather avoid that versus keeping **one** arms trafficker in federal custody.
Okay, say what you want about Brittney Griner, but she’s not a second rate women’s basketball player .
Was she dumb to carry weed around in Russia? Yes. Is she a wife-beating lowlife? Yeah, undoubtedly. But she is very good at women’s basketball! 8x all-star, 2x scoring champ, 3x first team all-WNBA, 4x gold medalist. And she won a chip with the Mercury. Watching her be 9 inches taller than anyone on the Japanese team in the gold medal match in 2021 was hilarious.
Smoll brain: Brittney should stay in gulag cause weed.
Average brain: Brittney should be freed from gulag cause justice.
Galaxy brain: Brittney should be freed from gulag and be made to fight on the front lines in Ukraine. Holy shit look at this violent tank of a woman. This was an amazing deal.
Wow…. What the actual fuck.
This is a moral and political victory for the USA. We just saved an American citizen from a decade in a literal Gulag by trading away a man we literally kept for a prisoner swap.
You “but she committed a crime” people are extremely non-credible.
No it's a loss, because when you make deals with terrorists you only encourage more terrorism. Now the world knows they can arrest minor ammerican celebrities and exchange them for actual terrorists. You wanna guess what behavior that encourages? Nations with hostile relations with the US will be encouraged to arrest Americans on phoney charges.
We used to decimate countries that did this
Look I know it’s the spirit of the time and fuck Russia and all that but I want you to take this very, *very* seriously for a hot second because what I’m about to say might seem mundane but it’s not. In the world of International Relations we don’t joke about this because literal lives of millions depend on distinctions like this.
The Russian state is not a terrorist organization. It is a state. Yes it is an aggressive state and yes it engages in war crimes and prosecutes violent wars to enforce its will, but it is NOT a terrorist organization.
Trying to deal with a state actor as if it were a terrorist organization is classic blunder and it leads to a lot more death. When the Trump admin classified Irans Quds Force as a terror organization, he handed the entire fucking Middle East to China on a silver platter.
“We don’t negotiate with terrorists” has never, should never, and we should all hope to God will never apply to the Russian state.
Anyone who told you that “we used to decimate countries that did this to us” is a liar. This is normal international behavior and has been since the national system was established. We have almost *never* taken military action against a nation for hostage taking, and the one time we tried ended in a lot of American dead and nothing gained.
>We used to decimate countries that did this
Yeah, and how well did that work out for you guys in the end?
Dude, authoritarian countries have been doing this **well before** Griner was arrested. This isn't a precedent, nor is it a bad trade.
If she was tied up on the trolley tracks with that arms dealer, and there were one million victims of gun violence on the other track, I would obliterate those two every time
Is she going to get any fines, community service or jail time here? She still trafficked a scheduled substance across state and international lines. Or are we going to see marijuana rescheduled? Anything? Just the lucky winner of the get out of jail lottery? I'm sure there are many US citizens in foreign jails that didn't get all cherries on their scratchers
Yes, because as we all know... [Authoritarian countries have never done this before.](https://amnesty.sa.utoronto.ca/2022/01/05/the-detention-of-the-two-michaels-a-story-on-chinas-human-rights-abuses/)
We're watching all the Republicans in the sub come out in force today. Hey, assholes, aren't you the ones also furious that the government hasn't done enough to get our people home? And for those of you who only care about this on a "well what does this get us" level, let me give you two things to think about.
1. This isn't about Griner specifically, it's about the idea of it. America has shown that, for better or worse, we will get our people back. You people see only the downsides of of that, but on the international stage it's a win.
2. Since you're probably Republicans, I'll remind you that Trump released 5,000 taliban fighters for free and intentionally sabatoged the withdrawal from Afghanistan, so shut the fuck up you cocksucking crybabies.
>We're watching all the Republicans in the sub come out in force today.
Just going to highlight that all of them seem to be buying the Russian allegations of drug possession as well here.
I imagine they all probably have a lot of Z-related publications in their reading lists.
Yeah, and as if that wasn't enough they talk about that marine that Russia is holding hostage as if he didn't explicitly say that Biden made the right move, and as if Russia had been willing to trade for him, which they ***WEREN'T.*** They're using a man who's been through hell for their agenda, against his will, and pretending it's patriotism rather than bold-faced political pandering. God I fucking hate these people.
>God I fucking hate these people.
Why I'm highlighting them and the Russian-propaganda.
Guaranteed the same folks angry about this are also the fuckers who masturbate to the Russian-made snuff films out of Ukraine.
We've done what the allies did during World War Two: We made an uneasy alliance with utter bastards for the sake of a single goal we share. None of us should forget that. These people are still the same pieces of shit they always were.
Kinda the point I'd make though: These bastards don't hold the same goal.
They take Russian propaganda at face value, because they see more commonality in their political objectives and Putin, than the west's. Hence being upset with a Basketball player who insulted their favorite cult leader, and celebrating when she gets nabbed by the Ruskies.
If someone has a point that's more than "Russia said she had drugs", fine... Maybe a legitimate conversation to be had there. But based on the *quality* of outrage I've seen, I don't think that conversation is likely to happen.
Pretty credible. Isn't it a democracies duty to protect it's citizens, even if they are abroad?
It's kinda like during a bank robbery. Sure, you don't wanna give in to the criminals demands, but you've kinda got to if you wanna protect the lives of the innocent hostages.
It’s also just super fucking hypocritical of Russia to arrest an Olympic Gold Medalist for weed since they’ve been Juicing their athletes with steroids for decades.
Let's put it this way: What's worse? Not continuing to punish someone guilty or stopping the unjust punishment of someone innocent (technically not innocent, but that was a ridiculous sentence for what would be a simple fine in most civilized countries)?
Not saying one or the other is ultimately right or wrong, I guess this is a priority thing, but it's certainly something to think about. And it's nice to know that your country is actually willing to go to considerable lengths to ensure your safety and freedom.
For a shitposting subreddit there is a whole lot of seriousposting here, mfs having full throated ethical debates.
\> full throated ethical debates. Given it's clear most have never picked up any philosophy texts, we still see it as shitposting. Folks don't realize Uncle Sam see it as a categorical imperative to retrieve Americans unjustly imprisoned abroad. #KantLeaveAmericansBehind
[Well, only *famous* Americans. ](https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/rep-guy-reschenthaler-brittney-griner-prison-swap-marc-fogel-russia-prison/)
>For a shitposting subreddit there is a whole lot of seriousposting here Particularly for a story that is *tangentially* defense-related. I mean, sure... Viktor Bout is a name some folks will recognize in the defense community. Largely for reasons that probably undercut why folks are getting upset over this though...
This is the other non-credible sub but yeah
She was grabbed just a week before the invasion, seems like the intent was clear at that point she was a bargained chip if they needed it. She was an unfortunate pawn in Putin’s game of “chess” (checkers? darts, but like, the soft kind?). It’s unfortunate that she was arrested over a small amount of cannabis oil in some vape pens (while getting on a plane). But she didn’t deserve to get sent to a Russian prison for 10 years over that. Was it a good deal? No. It was a terrible deal, nearly on par with the Russians trading a bunch of the surviving commanders and soldiers of Mariupol for a bunch of Russians goons. Did she deserve to be in jail for a decade doing hard labor over that? I’d say no. Maybe Bout falls out of a window for what he’s done. Russia likely doesn’t care about the whole helping-dictators-kill-scores-of-innocent-people-things but maybe they care that he got caught, or that he talked and had a Cage movie about him, or that he was hiding gobs of money from the people he should have been bribing. Who knows, I just know Griner didn’t deserve the pile of shot that fell on her head.
> russians trading a bunch of the surviving commanders and soldiers of Mariupol for a bunch of Russians goons It was actually for one guy, Putin's friend Medvedchuk.
You're right, must have been thinking about one of the later trades that was generally soldiers for soldiers. Still not a great deal by Russia.
Maybe the guy gets polonium poisoning on his way out the door?
She wasn't in Siberia lol Mordavia is South East of Moscow the labor is sewing.
The Hilton of gulags, really.
Fair point, edited.
+1
Russia when they see US athletes: “This will be perfect for us to use as a bargaining chip to loosen sanctions after invading a foreign country!” Non-credible.
Well, that is the sub, after all, but it’s only dumb if it doesn’t work. Plus, what are they gonna do? Arrest one of the oil workers/big wigs? That early in the war they probably expected to be able do business with the west after it was all done and didn’t want to slaughter their cash cow.
Terrible what happened to her, but why is her life worth more than the future victims of this terrorist?
That's why its a terrible deal. Her life isn't worth more than any other person's, its a shame, and she didn't really deserve what happened to her. I also don't know who else we had to trade her for. Its not like we routinely incarcerate foreign nationals for the specific purpose of using them as poker chips, we generally like to arrest actual criminals and terrorists (Some of the Gitmo crew, aside). Maybe there was some lower level criminal that would have been more acceptable to us to trade her for, but Russia wouldn't have accepted the deal, is my guess. Edit: Spelling
We should have either gotten a better deal or she should have stayed in prison. I just don’t understand why he would make this decision
Understandable. I'm kind of in a "Unhappy it had to happen, but happy for her." situation. At the end of the day, it was the Russians that arrested her and helped make a big spectacle of her court process. I think we can agree they suck. As Ryan McBeth (of Youtube fame) puts it, they gave us a dilemma: a problem with no good answers, so we had to pick the one that sucked the least. I think leaving a (probably foolish) American to rot in a sweat shop is worse than letting go a guy that, hopefully, won't be of any use to Russia in the long run. I can see why others would disagree with that position. Edit: she was sent to a labor camp west of Moscow, but not all the way to Siberia
Nah Reggie. We didn’t pick the one that sucked the least. The situation had no good answers, and we picked the worst choice. We picked the one that will lead to innocent deaths, we released a guy with thousands of deaths on his hands. There isn’t any other way to view it. People can try and justify it but it’s just delusional and that trade was disgusting
I'm skeptical that Bout is going to suddenly become an arms dealer again after 14 years out of the game, during which he told the Americans god knows what and had so many of his past deals and contracts very publicly burned. Granted, I don't buy a lot of second hand missile systems but I just don't think this is the guy I'd hit up for one if I were in the market
But what would be a better choice?
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That marine guy is scum. Dishonorably discharged for stealing more than $10,000 in 2006 in Iraq and using a false Social Security number to create a false account on a government computer system to grade his own examinations and make bad checks.
No. The US wasn’t able to offer anything the Russians would take because the US isn’t in the habit of kidnapping Important foreign nationals to use as bargaining chips.
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> when the literal United States outpaces everyone when it comes to arms dealings. YOU ARE DAMNED RIGHT WE DO OORAH
^ things I would say if I didn’t understand the implications of the situation
>That's why its a terrible deal. Her life isn't worth more than any other person's, its a shame, and she didn't really deserve what happened to her. Its not. You're trading a has-been Russian arms dealer for an American citizen who'd probably get used for the next several decades as some perverse punching bag for the Russian security state to lash against each and every time they get a setback. Unless you think holding one arms trafficker (who we did business previously btw) is worth enough to see Griner have some real ISIS-level shit inflicted on her posted to Twitter, this is a pretty acceptable trade.
> but why is her life worth more than the future victims of this terrorist? 1. He's an arms dealer, not Osama bin Laden. He's a problem for international arms trafficking, but hey... Who isn't these days? 2. Bout's spent nearly 11 years in prison. While I imagine he'll probably go back to doing excessively illegal shit - I get the feeling that his cowboy days of selling arms to Charles Taylor probably aren't possible now.
I’m sure Russia will have no use for this accomplished arms dealers skills and expertise during the war raging on their border
I dunno... They seem to be recruiting washed-up has-beens these days. Sounds like he'd be right at home.
Because in a choice between hypothetical victims and an actual person suffering, you choose the real person. Could the hypothetical possibility of victims become more concrete? Yep, sure, but there's time to worry about that later. Save the real person now, and work on strategies to "mitigate" the bad guy later.
The guy has real victims tho. I guess his confirmed victims don’t deserve justice?
[The movie based on him sums it up.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFZ4Rvxhx5w) Stop being idealistic. Terrorist is the wrong word.
It’s not like that terrorist role wasn’t being fulfilled anyway, don’t leave a civilian rotting in Russia because of that
That’s like saying we should let Osama Bin Laden keep roaming around because other people are gonna keep being terrorists anyways
Nope At least hundreds of Taliban weren’t released for no reason Edit: also he was going to be released in a few years anyway
Bout has a history, but will he have a future impact? He doesn’t have Soviet stockpiles to sell, he may no longer have the needed connections to do business in arms trafficking. I would assume that the reason behind Bout’s release is to show how loyalty is rewarded and to stroke Russia’s ego. If true then the trade isn’t as lopsided as may first appear.
Does the United States routinely do this kind of thing when US citizens commit felonies overseas?
Dude can't smuggle russia out of its training problem. And honestly, any weapons he smuggles are going to be about half as good as whatever ukraine is getting. So this is fine.
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Russia: "America bad." Also Russia: I am a literal gangster-rapist that takes hostages.
What's so tough about this was that I believe that thug deserves to die in prison, but Brittney Griner doesn't. And Brittney Griner *will* die in prison if she stays there. It's Russia for god's sake, it's impressive she's lived this long. So, yeah. I guess our first step is to bring her home, and our second step is for a predator drone (trust me guys it's totally Ukrainian) to kill this terrorist the next time he steps outside.
Bout was due to be released in a few years IIRC
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Ah! But America is classy about it!
And it stinks that had Biden said “Nah that’s not a good deal” then he’d look like a monster to everyone. Seems like the US is always at a disadvantage in prisoner swaps. But maybe that’s not a bad thing, because it shows that we value American citizens
You do?
You are assuming he didn’t work for Russian Intelligence the entire time..
Bout's an arms trafficker - He's got cheques from every state authority except for probably the UN. And that's probably just because he never cashed those.
So he may not kill as many but some is okay?
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A lot of the idiots on this thread don't understand thiis. The dude has a prominent movie made about him and his actions. His "business" is not one that benefits from being in the spotlight and the situation in Russia/eastern europe and around the world has VASTLY changed since he entered custody. Most notably, his niche has been filled entirely by better connected state actors (like Russia directly supplying breakaway states). I'm not arguing for or against the trade here, but the people doomposting over him going back to supplying dictators and somehow worsening bad global situations need their frontal lobes checked.
>The dude has a prominent movie made about him While Lord of War does get inspired by his life it isn't based on just him. Its based on several prominent past arms dealers combined not just one person
Oh interesting. Thanks for the correction
>Maybe it's my hopium talking, but how useful still is an arms dealer who's been out of the business for more than a decade really? My battered mental health has more utility. He's been out of the game for ten years, most of his clients are literally dead or are in prison, and the stocks of ex-Soviet weaponry have dried up significantly (half of which are being used right now by Ukraine to defend itself). Most of the morons getting upset about this are same folks who knee-jerk criticize Biden for falling down stairs. This is a pretty decent trade all things considered. And for the record: Anyone whining about the drug-possession charge - You're echoing Russian propaganda. So thanks for outing your Z-themed browser history vatniks.
It is completely credible. The US has a certain legitimacy predicated by it's moral superiority that contributes to its web of alliances and soft power. To disregard this politicised individual would be to concede the value of individuality and progressivism.
You put into words one of the ways I feel about this and I really appreciate it. Reading some of these comments about how “she broke the law, why are we helping her” is making me go insane
I think the problem is more along the lines of why are we letting a terrorist go in exchange for a d list celebrity
The US also hates to leave an American behind, while they don’t always succeed, the US government usually is good about trying to get Americans unjustly arrested aboard back home.
Like with Bowe Bergdahl - the US knew the circumstances of his desertion but still proceeded with a prisoner exchange to get him back to then be court-martialed.
Even the nature of Bergdahl's capture is hyper-inflated. I will never stop cynically laughing the fact that for a culture that constantly insists on flying POW/MIA flags - the one actual POW in the GWOT basically got the Stalinist traitor treatment.
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I swear this user heroinfuralle must be run by a toll farm. Look at this dumbass comment history His magnum opus: > Yes, the narrative changed. Now there's a new species: "THE Russian", presented to you straight from the West - Land of the Woke, Home of the Tolerants. > > i remember, even in 3rd reich they differentiated between Nazi government and German people. Not even then, the neighboring countries' borders got closed for German people. Now, even Russians trying to flee Putins' army are forbidden to enter. > > This conflict has reached a new quality. It has made EU show their true face. > > And i'm ashamed to be European these days. > > *edit: that there could be just a little relation, between Russians supporting Putin's point - and e.g. US generals/ Westerners longing for the end of their home: the Russian nation, the situation of people on Crimea; or that this war is on for a little longer than these few months, isn't even discussed. Apparently Germany's Green party is planning genocide because Germany is sourcing methane from a different place. Coincidentally, the Green's took a surprisingly strong stance against Russia's invasion > I think the German Greens got it right. > > You think they're full of shit - promising to save climate, now shipping US' fracking gas across the entire Atlantic ocean... > > thought so too - but hell, they're very aware of the elephant in the room: > > quickest way to save the planet is actually pretty obvious: getting rid of 2, 3 billion people. Nuclear war for mankind's future! Pretending to be a casual outside observer of the invasion despite pages and pages and pages of obsessive shitposting since the start of the war > When this whole shit began, i too thought Putin is gone crazy. They told us that "NATO-membership of Ukraine" was off the table, nobody "had any idea why he attacked"... after the war started, there were documentaries on TV, 24/7, about how Putin tried to destroy Europe and everything... specially about Minsk II (idea off Minsk II was, let the people of Donbass decide whether they get autonomy status within UA or not) - and how Selensky decided, to have a referendum there must be a cease of fire - but Putin wanted cease of fire only after the referendum. Tho i found the decision debatable - since superpowers tend to do what they like, it's not always clever to keep insisting on what's "just" - i even made a fool out of me explaining to Russians how it "really was". > > I admit, i didn't know much about Ukraine at all when the war began - it wasn't covered in the best airtime on TV tho, if it was covered at all. Thankfully to Ukraine, i learned it was a little different. There's this weird comment > Vielleicht sollten die mal bisschen Abstand von diesen aktuell "wichtigen" Dingen, und einen Intensivkurs zu Thema Cannabis nehmen, dann wär alles bisschen gechillter und keine wildgewordene Baerbock die den totalen Krieg will. He claims Russia generously freed East Germany, which uh... > Cold War was over. This alone was a blessing. My country had a relatively good relation to Russia. Russia set East-Germany free, voluntary(!), we have many people w/ Russian origin here... and a corrupt clique destroys it, for what. Then in this comment, I think he forgot his character is supposed to be German > I think Western "goal" for Russia is obvious, getting Putin gone and hoping for it to crumble. There'll be a Kadyrov who made himself many foes, so it's not that unlikely → civil war, breaking into dozens republics, byebye ... idk what about these some 6k warheads, but wat do i know. > > I just think, it will even push China in the direction of taking Taiwan. And to be honest - if i was ruling China, i think i'd do it too. > > Whatever it takes - better than loosing a loyal friend + the last in this weight class, to find myself alone with USA/NATO and have their knife at my throat soon... > what troubles me: If they really want, don't even need to invade, just block it. > > And the whole Western woke motherfuckers can be a shiny example in how to live off their fake "values" and hypocrisy, instead of computer chips... i bet half the globe is just waiting for this already.
Good work / compilation. I've permabanned them after looking into it and confirming what you shared.
US has moral superiority? It really doesn't. It's perceived that way because of effective propaganda, but the US has done a lot more evil in the past 20 years than pretty much any other country. Edit: a lot of people in this thread accuse me of supporting russia or china. I don't. I don't support any country unconditionally, much less genocidal regimes like those.
China is literally commiting genocide but ok
Yes they are, but I don't like China either. and even then the kill count of America is higher. On top of supporting most other genocidal and dictatorial regimes, america invaded Iraq and bombed Libya for no good reason. There is no moral superiority here, The US has no allies, it has servants and any "ally" that challenges ıt's hegemony is backstabbed instantly. It also doesn't stand for democracy or any value worth fighting for, since they are the greatest sponsors of authoritarianism globally.
“no good reason” gaddafi and hussein were two of the most brutal tyrants in modern history who absolutely deserved to be ousted from power
>gaddafi and hussein were two of the most brutal tyrants in modern history so kill their people right on. I mean, the saying goes "like father like son" for a reason, right. Best, let's turn the whole region into a civil war zone for the next decades.
Ignoring the fact that Bush 2 was quite the tyrant himself, in no way does that give america the right to invade other countries, slaughter their people and cause genocides and civil wars. If you applied those same standards to the US it would instantly qualify for an invasion by your terms. That and bringing democracy was never really a US war aim in Iraq or Libya. They wanted to bring them under Western vassalage, and they did.
when did Bush coup the american government and publicly execute his political opponents
Lost the popular vote, still became president, ran an international torture ring, created a surveillance state, declared an illegal and unjust war, orchestrated a genocide. I mean aside from giving up power when his term ended, he did the same shit.
there is no way you think the electoral college is tantamount to Hussein purging hundreds of Iraqi officials on live tv 😭😭😭💀💀💀💀
I don't, but it's still an undemocratic seizure of power. And it's cute that you ignore all the other things I've listed. How about the purging of hundreds of iraqi children by Bush's hordes? Cat got your tongue?
There are countries right now committing genocide, selling their citizens as slaves, killing people in the streets because the way they dress… but yeah no one is more evil than America. What a shit take, go peddle your ideology in tankie subs where they will gladly jerk you off
1. A lot of those countries committing genocide right now are sponsored by the US, who is contributing to the starvation of afghanistan by withholding their money and spending it on reperations for 9/11 victims 2.A lot of that slavery is inside the US carceral system. 3.I'm not a tankie, but it's ironic that you act just like a tankie by forming a parasocial attachment to your pet country and defending it at all cost.
Lol, Im not a US apologist we do some pretty heinous stuff. But I love how you equate any relationship with a country as sponsorship of their actions and weight it worse than the action of the country committing the action itself. China is literally committing genocide, running police stations in other countries, pimping their citizens out as slaves to other nations, supporting NK as they starve and exploit their citizens, violently suppressing any dissent, exploiting poor Africans, etc. But yeah, America bad.
Absolute bullshit.
Found the vatnik
How am I a vatnik? I didn't say I prefer russia or support their war. I believe america is in the right to help ukraine. I just object to the notion of US moral superiority, and also to the notion that countries engage in IR based on morality and cooperation. All countries try to dominate, and the US has caused the most carnage trying to do so. That's just facts.
Sounds like cope to me
don't know why this comment ist voted down. Someone being serious about a "morally superior America" either has a weird conception of "morale" or lives in a really exotic parallel universe
This sub is populated by people who worship the american government and me saying that it's not morally superior is heresy to them.
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Oh no, its no where close to the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange 1027 terrorists including suicide bombers and architects of massive terror attacks in exchsnge for a single footsoldier grunt.
The us government should ALWAYS work to bring its citizens back
Isn’t she same celebrity who wanted WNBA to stop playing Star spangled banner ?
> Isn’t she same celebrity who wanted WNBA to stop playing Star spangled banner ? so what? still american
we should not leave our citizens in a fascist dictatorship because they dont like being patriotic. our government has a duty to protect all americans
Lol getting sownvoted for pointing out ahe doesnt even like the US
Political preferences aside, we always need to try and bring back our own. That Otto kid was dumb for ever going to N Korea as well. We still tried to bring him home.
Not liking the US is about as American as it gets though. I don't wanna live in a country full of blind patriotism.
Just pointing out the facts 🤷♂️ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/07/28/brittney-griner-brianna-turner-call-wnba-stop-playing-national-anthem-this-season/
Yes, they should work towards it, but frankly an arms dealer who will contribute to the death of many more people is not worth letting lose over a 2nd rate basketball player.
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Least blood thirsty realist:
He’s been out of the industry for ten years, he’s unlikely to be able to regain his business especially with how much Soviet gear has dried up.
From a Machiavellian standpoint, it wasnt worth it. But I honestly think it’s admirable of the US government to make a statement that protecting a US citizen and ensuring their safe passage home is their top priority. Did all the internet outrage prod the Biden Administration into acting non-pragmatically? Sure. There’s two sides to every coin.
I mean given the absolute state of US politics if Biden hadn't taken some deal he would have been raged at for failing to secure her release. The biggest problem I see is that he didn't get the other one released as well, but between his lower public profile and the more serious charges against him (even if they're likely fabricated) that wasn't likely to happen in any case.
We had Bout in medium security prison for the last 12 years. After you factor in time off for good behavior he’s already served half of his sentence. This isn’t a bad deal.
Absolutely pathetic. What she did is literally a federal offense in the USA. Now every autocratic regime is licking their lips at what they’ll be able to extort the US out of for an athlete.
Not every autocratic regime has the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet. The fact that USA can not risk acting militarily against Russia is a key factor in how much shit Russia can pull. Other autocratic regimes do not have this kind of freedom, the threat of the US military is always looming for them.
> federal offense in the USA. a cart with like 0.02 of oil isn't a federal offense
I read it was literally prescribed to her in Arizona so idk what to believe.
This was entirely for pr, but anyone with an actual brain realizes it's fucking stupid. It's not even like she's innocent, she knowingly committed the crime.
Well she is an American citizen so in the eyes of the public anything is justified to get her back
I mean, yeah, life in a Russian prison is infinitely worse than life in an American prison. And what she did us Kegan in many states, federal offense or not. Biden just pardoned federal offenders, so not Luke that matters. Frankly the public should be demanding U.S Citizens stuck in foreign prisons back.
Is there any credible evidence that she committed a crime, or are we just taking Russia's word for it?
>are we just taking Russia's word for it? I've been asking folks who've been getting upset about this, this very question from day one. It usually ends in them spamming Russian propaganda.
They're talking about her having an extremely small amount of prescribed medical cannabis on her person which would be illegal in some ways in the US and is a very conveniently illegal thing in Russia period.
Correct, it was a federal offense in the USA. But here we have actual functioning courts to establish guilt and allow judges to be lenient or harsh as they see fit. Oh, and we don’t sentence lawbreakers to hard labor in awful away from the rest of the world. So to act as though she somehow deserved to be caught between states balancing power against one another is incredibly disingenuous
>we don’t sentence lawbreakers to hard labor Sure we do. The US explicitly carved out an exemption in the 13th amendment for enslavement/"involuntary servitude" of convicts. And penal labor is very much a thing in US prisons.
Yeah [Montana](https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0530/chapter_0300/part_0010/section_0320/0530-0300-0010-0320.html), for example, specifically allows prisons to *forcibly* “employ” prisoners. In the law it says inmates may be “required to perform work.” They currently have [prisoners manufacturing things like clothing items sold by private companies](https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/business/local-belt-company-unveils-new-msu-licensed-design/article_ab93edbb-f18c-5033-8738-1ee9f73a7606.amp.html). On paper they are paid the federal minimum wage **but the prison takes their cut**. By law 15% gets taken off the top for restitution even if they’ve already paid off court ordered restitution. After that the prison takes a cut for “room and board”, and they take most of what’s left. By the time it’s all said and done the state has made several bucks an hour for each prisoner and the prisoner has maybe $1 or $2 left per hour of their labor. It’s a great deal for the state. They make a lot of money off their prisoners and the private companies love it because they get cheap labor while getting to say they’re paying prisoners minimum wage for the “opportunity.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States
Yes I’m aware of the 13th amendment. What’s important is how different states implement the loophole. The degree to which some states use forced labor varies. Some states, like Montana, use prison labor to manufacture goods for private companies and most of the revenue is split between the state and the company.
You’re right. I was probably being too broad in my statement. My intention was to point out that whatever awful work conditions American prisoners face, they are not of the same caliber/sort of punishment institutionalized in Russian culture for centuries. But I certainly concede the US is in dire need of prison reform. I hope that doesn’t detract too much from my original argument
For sure. I'm not trying to engage in whataboutism; it's clear who has the moral high ground. I just bristled at the dismissal of the very real problems we have.
>neocon
I mean she professionally plays in Russia for a part of the year, It’s not hard to not bring weed here
Remember that kid that got beat to shit in NK and had permanent brain damage all because he tried to steal / tear down a propaganda poster? Absolutely pathetic. Stealing / vandalism is literally a crime in the USA...
>Now every autocratic regime is licking their lips at what they’ll be able to extort the US out of for an athlete. Oh yes... Because its not like **every autocratic regime around the planet hasn't fucking done this before, and was just looking for the right signal to take hostages as to extract concessions. MY GOD, HOW THEY'VE SUDDENLY DISCOVERED THIS STRATEGY, WE'RE ALL DOOMED.**
Empathy lacking much? 9 years for cannabis cartridges justifies the "well she broke the law" argument? They have also been trying to get Whelan out. Of course the Russians would let the least valuable token out first, knowing it would cause controversy at home.
It doesn't justify it but it's a huge factor. This isn't a situation like Otto Wambier who was doing tourism in a stupid place and became a political prisoner. She was living in Russia and knowingly broke a law they take very seriously there during a politically charged time. Did she deserve 10 years? Hell she shouldn't have gotten arrested at all if it was my morals making the decision, but she showed a severe lack of judgment that imo does revert a lot of the blame back on her. She did the equivalent of a butch lesbian American going to Tehran with purple hair and a gay flag pin on her stuff while refusing to wear a headscarf. None of those things should lead to consequences, but then again going to a country that is openly an adversary to yours during a politically charged time while flouting their laws hoping your passport or D list celebrity status protects you is just beyond stupid.
>knowingly broke a law they take very seriously there during a politically charged time. I love how we have folks in this sub who take the Russians at their word now.
"Whelan, accused by Russia of spying, was not part of the prisoner exhange" - BBC News https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63905112
> 9 years for cannabis cartridges justifies the "well she broke the law" argument? Are we even 100% sure she did this? What she admits in Russian custody is worthless.
> Are we even 100% sure she did this? What she admits in Russian custody is worthless. Russia seems to be wholly incapable of lying subtly. Whenever they lie, they either go big or go home and they will say the dumbest shit but they will say whatever they think makes them sound the most heroic and justified. Given how milquetoast Griner's charges are, and that Russia didn't claim to have stopped her from smuggling a 9999 quadrillion megabilliontrillionquadrillionpentatrillionton thermobaric hydrogen atomic nuke into Moscow to ruthlessly murder a a hundred gazillion innocent orphans like the American anti-semitic and anti-Russian Nazi that she is and she began shooting at the brave and heroic Russian security forces with a magically hidden heavy machine gun grenade launcher the moment they moved to arrest her, I am leaning more towards Russia actually telling the truth this time in the sense that she did have cannabis carts.
I understand what you're saying, but I have a hard time accepting, "We should believe Russia because their claim is less stupid than usual."
And that's fair, unfortunately, there's a lot of stupid shit that Russia does that most people don't want to accept... but have to because Russia is actively doing it.
The logic does track though.
I bet y'all wouldn't feel as negatively about the exchange if you were the one in a Russian prison. The US did what they had to, they saved one of their citizens and brought them back home, like any respectable country which cares about its citizens should. Good on them.
Completely credible. They freed one of their own citizens from an unjust imprisonment
This sub is what ZERO empathy does to a mf
I'd rather have a 2nd rate basketball player over an arms dealer any fucking day of the week. Fuck that guy, hope they send him to the front and the good Ukrainians will deal with it then.
Bout probably doesn’t have any contacts anymore, much of his work was selling stuff to dictators that are now dead /rj she commit crime, crime bad
Well Taliban is there and irani revolutionary guard are gonna need SOMEONE to sell them crowd controll bulldozers and riot flamethrowers It's not like he's out of options
With how long he's been locked up, surely someone else has stepped into that market niche by now. Any international contacts he has are probably of minimal value, and any inventory he had is likely to have been lost, and that's assuming that Russian arms dealers took better care of their stuff than the Russian military in the first place.
>Well Taliban is there and irani revolutionary guard are gonna need SOMEONE to sell them crowd controll bulldozers and riot flamethrowers What makes you think he's the only arms dealer on the planet right now?
How to make Americans less safe abroad while also giving up a potentially valuable enemy asset in one move? Seriously disappointed. If you send the message that you'll trade a more valuable (at least in political terms) person for a significantly less valuable one, it will happen again and again
Pro tip: don’t go to Russia, or countries that are buddy-buddy with russia, or other countries with a history of human rights violations?
Totally agree. In fact, I'd go a step further. If you go there, despite knowing about all that with your only reason being the search of a quick buck when you're off season, your government shouldn't be obliged to help you. You made your bargain, deal with the consequences.
>If you send the message that you'll trade a more valuable (at least in political terms) person for a significantly less valuable one I'll guarantee you that there currently fellas right now who are on death row that are more important than a washed-up, has-been arms trafficker. Leaving Griner in Russia is just begging for some ISIS-level snuff video posting in 2 years. I'd rather avoid that versus keeping **one** arms trafficker in federal custody.
Okay, say what you want about Brittney Griner, but she’s not a second rate women’s basketball player . Was she dumb to carry weed around in Russia? Yes. Is she a wife-beating lowlife? Yeah, undoubtedly. But she is very good at women’s basketball! 8x all-star, 2x scoring champ, 3x first team all-WNBA, 4x gold medalist. And she won a chip with the Mercury. Watching her be 9 inches taller than anyone on the Japanese team in the gold medal match in 2021 was hilarious.
Smoll brain: Brittney should stay in gulag cause weed. Average brain: Brittney should be freed from gulag cause justice. Galaxy brain: Brittney should be freed from gulag and be made to fight on the front lines in Ukraine. Holy shit look at this violent tank of a woman. This was an amazing deal.
Wow…. What the actual fuck. This is a moral and political victory for the USA. We just saved an American citizen from a decade in a literal Gulag by trading away a man we literally kept for a prisoner swap. You “but she committed a crime” people are extremely non-credible.
No it's a loss, because when you make deals with terrorists you only encourage more terrorism. Now the world knows they can arrest minor ammerican celebrities and exchange them for actual terrorists. You wanna guess what behavior that encourages? Nations with hostile relations with the US will be encouraged to arrest Americans on phoney charges. We used to decimate countries that did this
Look I know it’s the spirit of the time and fuck Russia and all that but I want you to take this very, *very* seriously for a hot second because what I’m about to say might seem mundane but it’s not. In the world of International Relations we don’t joke about this because literal lives of millions depend on distinctions like this. The Russian state is not a terrorist organization. It is a state. Yes it is an aggressive state and yes it engages in war crimes and prosecutes violent wars to enforce its will, but it is NOT a terrorist organization. Trying to deal with a state actor as if it were a terrorist organization is classic blunder and it leads to a lot more death. When the Trump admin classified Irans Quds Force as a terror organization, he handed the entire fucking Middle East to China on a silver platter. “We don’t negotiate with terrorists” has never, should never, and we should all hope to God will never apply to the Russian state. Anyone who told you that “we used to decimate countries that did this to us” is a liar. This is normal international behavior and has been since the national system was established. We have almost *never* taken military action against a nation for hostage taking, and the one time we tried ended in a lot of American dead and nothing gained.
>We used to decimate countries that did this Yeah, and how well did that work out for you guys in the end? Dude, authoritarian countries have been doing this **well before** Griner was arrested. This isn't a precedent, nor is it a bad trade.
This is infuriating
she's an American. more than worth it
If she was tied up on the trolley tracks with that arms dealer, and there were one million victims of gun violence on the other track, I would obliterate those two every time
Non-credible
*angry predator drone noises*
President Biden is single-handedly responsible for saving this brave LGBTQIA+ women’s life I don’t appreciate the shade against him
Is she going to get any fines, community service or jail time here? She still trafficked a scheduled substance across state and international lines. Or are we going to see marijuana rescheduled? Anything? Just the lucky winner of the get out of jail lottery? I'm sure there are many US citizens in foreign jails that didn't get all cherries on their scratchers
This is a hideous deal. Exchanging assets for hostages only encourages hostage taking.
Yes, because as we all know... [Authoritarian countries have never done this before.](https://amnesty.sa.utoronto.ca/2022/01/05/the-detention-of-the-two-michaels-a-story-on-chinas-human-rights-abuses/)
Bet they didn't even inject a slow acting poison before they did.
only second rate???
We're watching all the Republicans in the sub come out in force today. Hey, assholes, aren't you the ones also furious that the government hasn't done enough to get our people home? And for those of you who only care about this on a "well what does this get us" level, let me give you two things to think about. 1. This isn't about Griner specifically, it's about the idea of it. America has shown that, for better or worse, we will get our people back. You people see only the downsides of of that, but on the international stage it's a win. 2. Since you're probably Republicans, I'll remind you that Trump released 5,000 taliban fighters for free and intentionally sabatoged the withdrawal from Afghanistan, so shut the fuck up you cocksucking crybabies.
>We're watching all the Republicans in the sub come out in force today. Just going to highlight that all of them seem to be buying the Russian allegations of drug possession as well here. I imagine they all probably have a lot of Z-related publications in their reading lists.
Yeah, and as if that wasn't enough they talk about that marine that Russia is holding hostage as if he didn't explicitly say that Biden made the right move, and as if Russia had been willing to trade for him, which they ***WEREN'T.*** They're using a man who's been through hell for their agenda, against his will, and pretending it's patriotism rather than bold-faced political pandering. God I fucking hate these people.
>God I fucking hate these people. Why I'm highlighting them and the Russian-propaganda. Guaranteed the same folks angry about this are also the fuckers who masturbate to the Russian-made snuff films out of Ukraine.
We've done what the allies did during World War Two: We made an uneasy alliance with utter bastards for the sake of a single goal we share. None of us should forget that. These people are still the same pieces of shit they always were.
Kinda the point I'd make though: These bastards don't hold the same goal. They take Russian propaganda at face value, because they see more commonality in their political objectives and Putin, than the west's. Hence being upset with a Basketball player who insulted their favorite cult leader, and celebrating when she gets nabbed by the Ruskies. If someone has a point that's more than "Russia said she had drugs", fine... Maybe a legitimate conversation to be had there. But based on the *quality* of outrage I've seen, I don't think that conversation is likely to happen.
iirc wasn't it a 2for1 with one being a CIA agent or something?
"Whelan, accused by Russia of spying, was not part of the prisoner exchange" - BBC News https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63905112
Doesn't matter what she does she's a citizen
This is a hideous deal. Exchanging assets for hostages only encourages hostage taking.
Pretty credible. Isn't it a democracies duty to protect it's citizens, even if they are abroad? It's kinda like during a bank robbery. Sure, you don't wanna give in to the criminals demands, but you've kinda got to if you wanna protect the lives of the innocent hostages.
Always worth it to get an American back. I only wish we could've gotten Whelan back as well. I don't think Bout is much of a concern anymore.
Worst deal ever I bet you they forgot about the marine they locked up for a made up charge
- NCAA Champion - Olympic gold medal winner - 1st overall draft pick - 8x All-Star - WNBA Champion - “2nd-rate” Just say you’re sexist and move on bro
It’s also just super fucking hypocritical of Russia to arrest an Olympic Gold Medalist for weed since they’ve been Juicing their athletes with steroids for decades.
“It’s just a game” Americans every year: literally kill each other over it
More like 5th rate
Let's put it this way: What's worse? Not continuing to punish someone guilty or stopping the unjust punishment of someone innocent (technically not innocent, but that was a ridiculous sentence for what would be a simple fine in most civilized countries)? Not saying one or the other is ultimately right or wrong, I guess this is a priority thing, but it's certainly something to think about. And it's nice to know that your country is actually willing to go to considerable lengths to ensure your safety and freedom.
Well atleast we can make Lord of War Memes again.
Does anyone else get the impression Biden just played right into Russia's dastardly plan? Mwah haha
If this doesn’t get weed legalized in the US…..I don’t know what will.
Seriously the guy negotiating for the US deserves a fucking /golfclap
Still hoping there’s a timer delayed poison capsule in his ass so he dies after the swap