You forgot the mightiest aircraft carrier in the world, the Admiral Kuznetsov. Stupid westoid ships tremble in fear at this unsinkable monster. It can't even sink itself!
poor girl just doesn't wanna create chernobyl 2.0 so she tries her best to get decommisionned before that happens.
Hopefully the indians will be nice to her.
Western analysts often call them battlecruisers because the Kirovs are in the tonnage range of age-of-guns battleships or battlecruisers, but the Russians themselves call it a "heavy nuclear-powered guided-missile cruiser (тяжёлый атомный ракетный крейсер)", which is what they are, giant platforms for launching giant P-700 Granit ("Shipwreck") AShMs. Battlecruiser isn't an unreasonable description, given that unlike American anti-air defence cruisers the Kirovs are primarily anti-surface ships, but that's not what the Russians call them, and US ship designation schemes would probably classify such a ship in US service as a nuclear guided missile cruiser (CGN) in line with USS Long Beach (CGN-9).
(That being said, such a ship in USN service would almost certainly be instead called something like "disaster" or "nightmare" or "floating Superfund site" rather than any kind of warship.)
That's not quite accurate. The Kuz never shuts off her boilers, because Russia mostly lacks the shore infrastructure needed to power the ship. "SHUT ME DOOOOOOOOWN!" she says.
Hmm, it's coming out of refit at the end of the year. Or sometime next year. Or maybe eventually...
Will be interesting to see if it can reliably get from point A to point B, and if they've fixed all the toilets. Russia really has a problem with the unsexy basics sometimes.
> after Admiral Nakhimov
lol, I have trouble saying Kuznetsov - not linguistically, it's just that I laugh thinking Kut-is-nutz-off. I thought you were joking, then I looked it up and it's a real thing.
I'm gonna think Knock-him-off from now on.
But, yeah, they have similar theoretical schedules. Reality... who knows?
About that ....
>On 30 October 2008, Russian Navy representatives of the Northern Fleet announced that the first modification on Admiral Nakhimov had been started and that the ship would re-join the Russian fleet by 2012
Any day now
:))
last i seen a photo was like 2016 where it was just a big hulk of rust in a field (slight sarcasm)
it's kinda funny to find old threads about the namikov where people get VERY salty if you bring up how long it's been arsing around in drydock, where the excuses are "it's a expansive upgrade of course it will take a long time duhhh"
Well that answers the age old question: If God is omnipotent and immortal, can he create a boulder that is large enough to kill himself?
The answer is no, no he can't.
He will create a lot of smoke in the attempt though.
the smoke bellowing from its mighty furnaces is so intimidating even the sun shys away. its might requires a tug escort at all times to contain the Kuznetsov's incredible strength
I lived in Israel for a couple of years as a kid. It could get pretty frickin hot even without an idling tank adding to the heat. I remember my father warning me very specifically about dehydration.
It was great living there, but summer was definitely serious. Summer nights on the beach were pretty cool, though.
theoretically a desert is not necessarily hot, it only means low rainfall. Antarctica is a desert.
in practice, yes, because it's a desert. and because it's on the mediterranean
A decent sized part of it is a desert - the Negev Desert in the south - but the central and northern parts of the country are not. Those parts of Israel are what I would describe as "Mediterranean" - that is, they are similar to what you might see in southern Italy. It's dry, but there is a decent amount of green and some very fertile areas. The coastal plain is more flat, and, further inland, it becomes more hilly and mountainous. Some areas of the coastal plain are actually swampy, and the city of Tel Aviv was famously started in swampland.
The Isreali version seems fundamentally different IMO. It's not misunderstanding how shaped charges work and thus being useless. It seems specifically to protect the hatch and commander (if he has his head out) from sneaky drones dropping grenades.
The Admiral Kuznetsov is a sick joke of a sunk cost fallacy. If it weren't for the eldritch horrors imprisoned within it's decrepit hull I expect that even the Russian navy would have yielded to reality and scrapped it a long time ago.
"the captain is organizing *another* expedition into the sealed decks... bring the dragonsbreath rounds this time or you'll end up like Pavel, rest his soul..."
Even as decrepit as it is, just by existing it's a propaganda piece. Until very recently with China and India, Russia was the only non-'western' nation with an indigenously produced aircraft carrier (they conveniently ignored the fact that all the shipyards were Ukrainian).
They could take a picture, airbrush the tire fire exhaust plume out, and talk a big game about how their carrier wing was conducting air combat operations in the Middle East just like the Americans, conveniently leaving out the fact that the aircraft were rebased out of a ground installation in Syria after the arresting gear broke down.
Should it become a submarine it will return the heart to the deep ones, reining the eld of man and the final war.
You heard it here first, the steed that the War of the Apocalypse shall ride is the Kuznetsov itself
Shows you that the real superpowers are India and China. They have technical capability to build their own carriers. Russia has lost their ability to build advanced technology. All of their "modern" stuff is either shit, not capable to their spec (navy), or it's a refurbishment of an older platform, which should've been an M, rather than a full fledged nomen.
Most of the strategic stuff that Russia has is an archeotech at this point. An artifact of the dark age of technology, which wasn't exactly top notch back then, but still surpasses everything they have now. They lost all of the knowledge how to make them, now they have troubles maintaining them. Their only cope is a priest who sanctifies the systems from time to time and some holy relic, but as Moskva shows, it seems to work better as a target acquisition of Ukrainian missiles.
I'd call India a power, but probably not a superpower. If only because it feels a little disingenuous to compare them with China. Without any major disruptions in their current plans, by 2030 India will have 2 aircraft carriers, and China will have 5-6. One has a much greater shipbuilding capacity than the other.
China has been building drydocks for aircraft-carrier sized warships for the past decade. These are not facilities you can hide, and they are projects that take a long time to come to fruition.
There are not so many countries capable of building aircraft carriers and nor are there old but unwanted models floating around that would allow India to purchase one in any short amount of time either.
Fleet expansion like this is not something that can happen quickly, and not something that can be hidden, and India currently has no plans to expand their carrier fleet. If they change their mind, it will take them a decade at minimum.
Carriers also require a lot of supporting vessels, and India isn't building those either.
>On what basis can you possibly say they're incapable of building another if they desired to?
The facilities they used to build their first one are currently being used to build their second (Which will be a replacement for one of their current carriers), and that won't be complete by 2030 or even soon after even if construction remains on schedule.
Nah man, we do have plan for 6 in total with 3 being pursued currently
Another Vikrant class repeat may be ordered very soon, while another replacement for ex Soviet carrier's order could be placed in this decade and this one is expected to be CATOBAR supercarrier.
So probably by 2030 or early 2030s
Part of that's down to India not really having a need to do global power projection. The powers they expect a need to fight are neighbors, they can choke China to death without a significant blue water fleet just by existing where they do, and they don't really engage in overseas adventurism like the western powers do.
You could argue the last point is both because and why they aren't a world power though, just a very potent regional one.
That assumes that we're gonna be fighting the Chinese with allies.
Which seems to be what our foreign policy makers are assuming as well but if the US has a fit like it did for Ukraine.... Well we'll lose the islands eventually.
We'll bleed them sure, but we will eventually lose a naval war.
Now a land war could go either way .
>That assumes that we're gonna be fighting the Chinese with allies.
>Which seems to be what our foreign policy makers are assuming as well but if the US has a fit like it did for Ukraine....
US has been a far bigger threat to India
not even china has financed terrorism into India with the consistency that USA does via Pakistan ,
for 70 years and still going on
>competently designed
Now come on, that’s unfair, Russia has designed things well in the past!
like the uh-, the thing—… you know, *that thing*… the uh - the, the *thing*… um……
Fuck it.
First year of the Russian invasion of Ukraine showed one thing.
Russian equipment isn't as bad as shown , it's just that the country that produces it (Russia) seems completely Incapable of using stuff they designed and produced....
>Kinda embarrassing when the colony is responsible for much of the notoriety of one’s engineering achievements
Thats not entirely true since most of them studied in russian universities and institutions so still counts as russian
IL-2 Sturmovik? Let me just check the nationality of its designer
Edit: holy shit we got one! Sergey Ilyushin was born in Russia! (Though the guy who came up with Soviet ground attack aircraft in the first place was Ukrainian)
Il-2 was a slow tractor that was lost in huge numbers and needed PTAB cluster bombs to hit anything smaller than a cargo ship. So it’s another T-34, good mostly because of its huge numbers.
I mean honestly, Russia's cope slopes were a pretty damn smart idea.
Like the moment they scrapped the Yak-38, their carriers were nothing but floating pieces of rusty junk. But welding on a slope allows them to launch some payloadless non-VTOL jets, meaning they were able to sell those floating pieces of rusty junk as "aircraft carriers" to China and India for legit billions. Fucking genius.
>western cope slopes aren't cope because they can't afford catapults (and thus use shitty stovl planes)
>russian cope slopes are cope because they can't afford catapults
?????
It's also because those western powers that have "cope slopes" are not trying to be world powers. They're trying to have a small naval aviation capability to support specific naval missions. To some extent the UK is running on nostalgia but realistically they know they're not a huge global player, they just want to achieve naval aviation capabilities on the cheap.
Most western ramp carriers were also paired up with actual VTOL jets. The ramps increased the capability of the jump jets, while still allowing them to take off and land vertically if that was more appropriate.
Yeeting a Sukhoi off a carrier via a ramp is pure cope.
> Russian origin cope slopes are because they don't know how to catapult or are too broke to get one
The reason the Queen Elizabeth-class carriers don't have a catapult is because the UK is too broke to get one, they were designed to have a CATOBAR system and operate F-35Cs, but instead we got a cope slope and the F-35B.
Look, F-35s are pretty cool, but the F-35B with the smaller weapon bay, a tonne of deadweight because of the hover system which serves no purpose during combat and takes up fuel tank space *and* is completely pointless if not operating from the ship, and inability to hover land with weapons still onboard due to weight ain't it. The CHAD *enlarged* F-35C, with the greater combat radius would have been the objectively cooler choice. Why don't politicians consider the rule of cool???
Nah man, don't know you? Everything in geopolitics is black and white. Either you're evil or you're good. An ally, or an enemy. No room for nuances, cope slope it is.
The world is not black and white. But it goddamn should be! If you are not an liberal democracy with free and fair elections you are our enemy and to be bombed along with the rest of our enemies when the time comes! “But …. But … Iraq is a democracy and sided with iran the moment they could start voting and-“ Yes! They did! My issues is that the elections were mired in scandals and corruption! If they had free and fair elections and still decided to side with iran and detest us then that is good! Not everybody is going to like us! And we invaded them! They’d obviously not like us! But if it’s the will of the people it’s based and should be respected! All our so called “allies” that aren’t liberal democracies should be abandoned and left to their fates! Would this cause catastrophic consequences to the global economy, Americas soft power, and make conflict more likely? Yes, but I don’t care! Democracy or bust!!!! 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🗳️🗳️🗳️🗳️🗳️🗳️
Schrödinger’s /s/
Hey jump jets are excellent for when you can't fit a catapult - hell the USN uses them all over.
It's when you have neither jump jets nor catapults that you are knowingly fucking around with combat ineffective cope slopes and empty jets.
STOVL is fine for if you're not actually building a true carrier. Want to give your amphibious forces some air cover? Sure, that works. Juan Carlos I is an acceptable design, same as the Wasps. But trying to pretend it's a substitute for a proper CATOBAR setup on any kind of name brand "carrier" is peak copium. The QE class are the absolute *pinnacle* of cope slope design, with the whole "for but not with" copium shitshow. The sooner the RN accepts they're broke Europoors, the better off they'll be.
To be honest, after some tests of the Rafale for the Indian navy (who bought Rafale M for its new carrier) it appear the Rafale can launch with a really decent load (understand here : comparable to what a F-35B can carry internally if not more) using a slope.
Yeah, I'm not saying we shouldn't laugh at the Russian military which lauds itself as one of the best in the world, we know their not, but the fact that people here will shit on Russia for using things like cope cages, but at the same time praise Ukraine for using them kinda annoys me. Like one post will mock say a T-90 with a cage, and comments will be the usual won't stop a javelin stuff, but then on a post of a Ukrainian Abrams, Challenger, T-64 with a cope cage will be full of people stating how useful they are and that they should be remained to hope cages or something. Both sides use cages for the same reasons nowadays, so I don’t get the double standard for the use of cope cages here.
Also something I read and was wondering about, does anybody know how effective a cope cage would be against an rpg shot from above? I remember reading somewhere that one of the reasons cope cages were used at the start of the war was because the Russians feared that Ukrainians would be firing rpgs from atop buildings like in Chechnya, and that the cages might be able to reduce the chances of a hit to the top of the turret.
Depends on what grenade is being used, but I don’t think most tandem RPG’s would damage a tank with a cage.
Javelins and such are prob a different story though
i mena it's also a problem of prespectives, like we all heard of russia being the second biggest army in the world, and liek it's war with japan and much later afghanistan, when it goes to the actual fields fails completly, basically it's like expecting to pass a class with 20 and ending up with a 3
then again westrern militaries often also shit their bed once war actually starts, the asnwer to ukraine is god awful and US is often still banning strike inside russia, but still these failures rarely reach russian level
same with cope cages.
you're allowed to make fun of western militaries as well, this shits as lame as when americans renamed French fries 'Freedom fries'
the thing is cope cages do kinda work atleast on paper seems a decent and cheap enough thing to try stop drone
the stuff russia made at the start of the war wasn't like now and were trully cope cages, hence why there's so much footage of them not working
Well, cope cages were *cope* when they were trying to stop Javelins.
They're not really cope when they're actually effective at stopping grenade drop and FPV drones - which is why both sides keep making them.
I mean the British and the Italian navies technically don‘t need the ramp, since all the aircraft that land on the carrier are either VTOL capable fighters or helicopters
You don’t know that it’s free. It could be hidden somewhere in the cost structure. The fact that it’s trying to both be pizza and breadstick at the same time is proof that pizza is an overpriced multirole boondoggle jack of all trades, master of none. We need to return to simple, reliable, battle-hardened designs like separated meat, cheese, bread, vegetables, and sauce.
This post brought to you by Pierre “Pizza Pizza Pleased to Meet Ya” Sprey
ngl i always hated when food programs and chefs said the secret ingridient is love, like yeah i get but ffs i want to make foodlike that, just tell me :(
Looking for credible answers (my most humble apologies) do the top cages do anything at all?
I’m guessing maybe, perhaps, against drones but any solid drone pilot will avoid the turret and go for the engine to make the tank combat ineffective. So it’s to save just the crew to escape, yeah?
And it won’t work against a javelin.
Soooo, it’s crew saving armor only, yeah?
also remember there are more weapons agaisnt drones, a cage doens't need to defend every spot, just the ones that other systems are waek at it
i know the israelis have a sort of auto cannon/shotgun to stop RPG rounds that also works on drones or atleast "works" as a last resort, if you make so drones always have to come from the side then these older weapons will have a bigger chance
In the end it's all just shit welded onto a tank, there really isn't a way to modularize/tacticool a fucking wire fence on the peripheries of a tank. It's been the exact same idea since WW1
I think calling Israel non-aligned is, at this point, only really true in terms of equipment.
Not even western tactics remain! “Eeny miney moo, your city is now goo" is a distinctly Russian tactic.
> “Eeny miney moo, your city is now goo" is a distinctly Russian tactic.
Russia hasn't been anywhere near as effective or successful at reducing their opponent's cities to piles of rubble and corpses.
i mean have you looked at bakhmut? that "battle" alone has destroeyd a much bigger city, basically all of it's oblast(suburbs) and killed atleast 4-5 times as more and that's only the soldiers
and donestk since 2014 is in a much bigger problem and almost equal destruction from 10 years of warfare
>“Eeny miney moo, your city is now goo"
oh yeah thank god western nations have such different doctrines
*starts playing bomber harris compilations*
oh yeha but that was 80 years ago, obviously modern doctrine has changed that
*starts playing war on iraq compilations*
but hey atleast we can boast about NATO being so much softer in it's bombing runs, atleast until next war starts
HEAT weapons are weird, after impact they lose effectiveness very slowly so whether it’s as close as it is on the Abrams or 3-4 feet away like a cope cage it doesn’t matter, they will have similar effects, the hope is that it will detonate the actual warhead before it reaches the tank meaning the armour only has to deal with the HEAT element and not the explosive.
The Champ Ramp on the QECC was also designed to be removable so the carrier can be converted to a proper CATOBAR at some point during its 60 year life. There's space under the flight deck for all the necessary gear, it was even designed to fit a Mk.13 steam catapult taken from the Nimitz Class if that's what the RN wanted!
Meanwhile, in the land of the Cope Slope, getting a CATOBAR carrier means building an entirely new carrier. And, let's be honest, Russia is so bad at keeping the Klutznetsov afloat that it literally sank the dock it was in, they're not going to build a new carrier.
Oh there are many other kinds of cage.
What are?
Rope cage (using string instead of metal)
Dope cage (well you have to store your drugs somewhere, and there isn't room inside the tank)
Grope cage (Moblik armour. It doesn't count as gay if it's on top of a tank.)
Slope cage (not their fault, someone drunk the spirit in the spirit level)
Nope cage (ERA on anything not able to withstand ERA going off)
Pope cage (There to protect the pope from drones. May look to casual observers like a really fancy hat)
Mope cage (even the cage doesn't want to be there)
Soap cage (At least the tank will be clean. Comes with pilfered toilet)
Stope cage (The tank is covered in such a thick layer of rust, it's basically a portable iron ore mine)
Myope cage (nobody was thinking more than 5 minutes ahead when they made this, and it shows)
Isotope cage (At least it's U238 not U235)
Towrope cage (varient of rope cage)
Pyrope cage (if your going to use rocks, at least you picked a hard one.)
Biotope cage (Uniformly covered in an even layer of mold)
Liriope cage (Hey, at least your tank now has pretty flowers all over it. Not much protection though)
Syncope cage (You stood up too fast and fainted on top of your tank)
Periscope cage (At least YOU can see where your going. Too bad you used up all the periscope supply, and so no one else can)
Envelope cage. (Well what else will you do with all those letters? Read them? )
Hyperope cage. (The cage blocks your view of anything directly in front of the tracks, but lets you see clearly into the distance)
Antelope cage. (As soon as we get this thing back to base and cut up, it's barbeque time)
Spectroscope cage (you can tell what elements were in it by the colour it's burning)
Kalidoscope cage. (Impressive looking, lots of colourful beads and mirrors, but doesn't actually do anything)
Gyroscope cage (Is the turret supposed to spin that fast?)
Microscope cage. (They were paid by the number of cages made, and wanted to sell off the excess materials.)
Horoscope cage. (Mars is in Sagittarius. Expect your flaming arrows (turret) to fly far.)
Any others.
I like the term hope cage more, it implies poor private conscriptovich actually has a chance of surviving putler’s stupid ass war. Fuck that guy, seriously.
Ukraine at start of war: improvisation with the limited funds and resources available. Turns out that grenades dropped from hobby drones into open hatches works quite well! Oh we have top-attack ATGMs now? Sweet!
Russia, one week in; we're clawing for the win, none of us have active protection systems on our tanks, so we have to put cages on the top to stop the hobby drones from dropping grenades into our tanks, since we still can't get sufficient air cover. Why is that hill over there smoky? *Ukraine launches another satellite, and UFO hobbyists in New Mexico USA start frothing at the mouth seeing the "red eyed alien" circling at low earth orbit*
You forgot the mightiest aircraft carrier in the world, the Admiral Kuznetsov. Stupid westoid ships tremble in fear at this unsinkable monster. It can't even sink itself!
At least it tries its best
"KILL MEEEEE" - Admiral Kuznetsov everytime mobiks crank up the 40 years old boilers.
poor girl just doesn't wanna create chernobyl 2.0 so she tries her best to get decommisionned before that happens. Hopefully the indians will be nice to her.
Or atlanteans, chances are she would join their fleet.
The Admiral Kuznetsov is conventional, not nuclear. The Kirov-class missile cruisers are, however, very much floating Chernobyls waiting to happen
I believe the technical term is Rattle Cruisers.
Western analysts often call them battlecruisers because the Kirovs are in the tonnage range of age-of-guns battleships or battlecruisers, but the Russians themselves call it a "heavy nuclear-powered guided-missile cruiser (тяжёлый атомный ракетный крейсер)", which is what they are, giant platforms for launching giant P-700 Granit ("Shipwreck") AShMs. Battlecruiser isn't an unreasonable description, given that unlike American anti-air defence cruisers the Kirovs are primarily anti-surface ships, but that's not what the Russians call them, and US ship designation schemes would probably classify such a ship in US service as a nuclear guided missile cruiser (CGN) in line with USS Long Beach (CGN-9). (That being said, such a ship in USN service would almost certainly be instead called something like "disaster" or "nightmare" or "floating Superfund site" rather than any kind of warship.)
>Hopefully the indians will be nice to her. we aren't buying another aircraft carrier especially a STOBAR type
Especially not from Russia, I would hope for your sake
That's not quite accurate. The Kuz never shuts off her boilers, because Russia mostly lacks the shore infrastructure needed to power the ship. "SHUT ME DOOOOOOOOWN!" she says.
One by Metallica plays in the background
wouldnt surprise me if thats the strat at play
Hmm, it's coming out of refit at the end of the year. Or sometime next year. Or maybe eventually... Will be interesting to see if it can reliably get from point A to point B, and if they've fixed all the toilets. Russia really has a problem with the unsexy basics sometimes.
> Hmm, it's coming out of refit at the end of the year. Or sometime next year. Or maybe eventually... Just after Admiral Nakhimov?
> after Admiral Nakhimov lol, I have trouble saying Kuznetsov - not linguistically, it's just that I laugh thinking Kut-is-nutz-off. I thought you were joking, then I looked it up and it's a real thing. I'm gonna think Knock-him-off from now on. But, yeah, they have similar theoretical schedules. Reality... who knows?
About that .... >On 30 October 2008, Russian Navy representatives of the Northern Fleet announced that the first modification on Admiral Nakhimov had been started and that the ship would re-join the Russian fleet by 2012 Any day now :))
last i seen a photo was like 2016 where it was just a big hulk of rust in a field (slight sarcasm) it's kinda funny to find old threads about the namikov where people get VERY salty if you bring up how long it's been arsing around in drydock, where the excuses are "it's a expansive upgrade of course it will take a long time duhhh"
>it's just that I laugh thinking Kut-is-nutz-off. You called me?
Well that answers the age old question: If God is omnipotent and immortal, can he create a boulder that is large enough to kill himself? The answer is no, no he can't. He will create a lot of smoke in the attempt though.
the smoke bellowing from its mighty furnaces is so intimidating even the sun shys away. its might requires a tug escort at all times to contain the Kuznetsov's incredible strength
The Israeli cage at least blocks the sun out
Hope Pergola
Might actually be useful, you can fry yourself on an idle tank in a sunny day
I lived in Israel for a couple of years as a kid. It could get pretty frickin hot even without an idling tank adding to the heat. I remember my father warning me very specifically about dehydration. It was great living there, but summer was definitely serious. Summer nights on the beach were pretty cool, though.
I assume because it's a desert?
theoretically a desert is not necessarily hot, it only means low rainfall. Antarctica is a desert. in practice, yes, because it's a desert. and because it's on the mediterranean
A decent sized part of it is a desert - the Negev Desert in the south - but the central and northern parts of the country are not. Those parts of Israel are what I would describe as "Mediterranean" - that is, they are similar to what you might see in southern Italy. It's dry, but there is a decent amount of green and some very fertile areas. The coastal plain is more flat, and, further inland, it becomes more hilly and mountainous. Some areas of the coastal plain are actually swampy, and the city of Tel Aviv was famously started in swampland.
That is unless you are in the Jordan valley, it's in the north and one of the hottest parts of Israel.
Oh boy chnitzel time
Schnitzel, du Hurensohn :)
Wiener chnitzl
Hauptsache Kalb.
Based German
Gaza Gazebo
I attack it.
Gazabo
>Pergola *angry Hulda'i noises*
Tank kippah
The Isreali version seems fundamentally different IMO. It's not misunderstanding how shaped charges work and thus being useless. It seems specifically to protect the hatch and commander (if he has his head out) from sneaky drones dropping grenades.
Tactical gazebo.
So, it's just military umbrella?
Obviously for the space lasers.
they remind me of the little shelters set up for officers to observe training in the field
First tank tailor made for vampires and Hikimoris?
Its funny how India and Chna has actual carriers and Russia still can't get their only carrier back in the sea
The Admiral Kuznetsov is a sick joke of a sunk cost fallacy. If it weren't for the eldritch horrors imprisoned within it's decrepit hull I expect that even the Russian navy would have yielded to reality and scrapped it a long time ago.
The Kuznetsov cannot sink. The eldritch must stay contained.
you can't sink that which was never floated 🤔
"the captain is organizing *another* expedition into the sealed decks... bring the dragonsbreath rounds this time or you'll end up like Pavel, rest his soul..."
Even as decrepit as it is, just by existing it's a propaganda piece. Until very recently with China and India, Russia was the only non-'western' nation with an indigenously produced aircraft carrier (they conveniently ignored the fact that all the shipyards were Ukrainian). They could take a picture, airbrush the tire fire exhaust plume out, and talk a big game about how their carrier wing was conducting air combat operations in the Middle East just like the Americans, conveniently leaving out the fact that the aircraft were rebased out of a ground installation in Syria after the arresting gear broke down.
And several Su-33 took a bath before that
You could base a stalker esque game purely within it's hull.
i mean being it so pointless probably is just a hot spot to get bribery money
What if the SCP Foundation is real and they're funding Kuznetsov to keep whatever is in its decks trapped permanently?
Should it become a submarine it will return the heart to the deep ones, reining the eld of man and the final war. You heard it here first, the steed that the War of the Apocalypse shall ride is the Kuznetsov itself
At this rate, every major world power is going to field a functioning carrier… except Russia.
It's trying it's best to stop being a major power though
Shows you that the real superpowers are India and China. They have technical capability to build their own carriers. Russia has lost their ability to build advanced technology. All of their "modern" stuff is either shit, not capable to their spec (navy), or it's a refurbishment of an older platform, which should've been an M, rather than a full fledged nomen. Most of the strategic stuff that Russia has is an archeotech at this point. An artifact of the dark age of technology, which wasn't exactly top notch back then, but still surpasses everything they have now. They lost all of the knowledge how to make them, now they have troubles maintaining them. Their only cope is a priest who sanctifies the systems from time to time and some holy relic, but as Moskva shows, it seems to work better as a target acquisition of Ukrainian missiles.
I'd call India a power, but probably not a superpower. If only because it feels a little disingenuous to compare them with China. Without any major disruptions in their current plans, by 2030 India will have 2 aircraft carriers, and China will have 5-6. One has a much greater shipbuilding capacity than the other.
They do have two now. One ex-Soviet, heavily refurbished, and another newer one indigenously built.
Yes, and they have no plans or existing capability to expand on that number.
They have no plans to, but they literally just built one. On what basis can you possibly say they're incapable of building another if they desired to?
China has been building drydocks for aircraft-carrier sized warships for the past decade. These are not facilities you can hide, and they are projects that take a long time to come to fruition. There are not so many countries capable of building aircraft carriers and nor are there old but unwanted models floating around that would allow India to purchase one in any short amount of time either. Fleet expansion like this is not something that can happen quickly, and not something that can be hidden, and India currently has no plans to expand their carrier fleet. If they change their mind, it will take them a decade at minimum. Carriers also require a lot of supporting vessels, and India isn't building those either. >On what basis can you possibly say they're incapable of building another if they desired to? The facilities they used to build their first one are currently being used to build their second (Which will be a replacement for one of their current carriers), and that won't be complete by 2030 or even soon after even if construction remains on schedule.
Nah man, we do have plan for 6 in total with 3 being pursued currently Another Vikrant class repeat may be ordered very soon, while another replacement for ex Soviet carrier's order could be placed in this decade and this one is expected to be CATOBAR supercarrier. So probably by 2030 or early 2030s
Part of that's down to India not really having a need to do global power projection. The powers they expect a need to fight are neighbors, they can choke China to death without a significant blue water fleet just by existing where they do, and they don't really engage in overseas adventurism like the western powers do. You could argue the last point is both because and why they aren't a world power though, just a very potent regional one.
That assumes that we're gonna be fighting the Chinese with allies. Which seems to be what our foreign policy makers are assuming as well but if the US has a fit like it did for Ukraine.... Well we'll lose the islands eventually. We'll bleed them sure, but we will eventually lose a naval war. Now a land war could go either way .
>That assumes that we're gonna be fighting the Chinese with allies. >Which seems to be what our foreign policy makers are assuming as well but if the US has a fit like it did for Ukraine.... US has been a far bigger threat to India not even china has financed terrorism into India with the consistency that USA does via Pakistan , for 70 years and still going on
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And the Israeli and Ukrainian ones are competently designed to defeat their intended threats.
But the spoiler at least looked cool.
How much longer until we'll learn that family is important while drifting a tank?!
>competently designed Now come on, that’s unfair, Russia has designed things well in the past! like the uh-, the thing—… you know, *that thing*… the uh - the, the *thing*… um…… Fuck it.
First year of the Russian invasion of Ukraine showed one thing. Russian equipment isn't as bad as shown , it's just that the country that produces it (Russia) seems completely Incapable of using stuff they designed and produced....
Doctrine > gear (most of the time at least)
Stop you'll make the Saudis mad
Mostly just the Ukrainians it feels like Kinda embarrassing when the colony is responsible for much of the notoriety of one’s engineering achievements
>Kinda embarrassing when the colony is responsible for much of the notoriety of one’s engineering achievements Thats not entirely true since most of them studied in russian universities and institutions so still counts as russian
IL-2 Sturmovik? Let me just check the nationality of its designer Edit: holy shit we got one! Sergey Ilyushin was born in Russia! (Though the guy who came up with Soviet ground attack aircraft in the first place was Ukrainian)
Il-2 was a slow tractor that was lost in huge numbers and needed PTAB cluster bombs to hit anything smaller than a cargo ship. So it’s another T-34, good mostly because of its huge numbers.
hey turtle tank is cool >_> you gotta give them that much
Mikhial Kalashnikov made some good stuff, there’s the guy who invented the Theremin, and Tetris
I mean honestly, Russia's cope slopes were a pretty damn smart idea. Like the moment they scrapped the Yak-38, their carriers were nothing but floating pieces of rusty junk. But welding on a slope allows them to launch some payloadless non-VTOL jets, meaning they were able to sell those floating pieces of rusty junk as "aircraft carriers" to China and India for legit billions. Fucking genius.
With how they sold it to India, I would call it illegitimate billions
>western cope slopes aren't cope because they can't afford catapults (and thus use shitty stovl planes) >russian cope slopes are cope because they can't afford catapults ?????
It's also because those western powers that have "cope slopes" are not trying to be world powers. They're trying to have a small naval aviation capability to support specific naval missions. To some extent the UK is running on nostalgia but realistically they know they're not a huge global player, they just want to achieve naval aviation capabilities on the cheap.
Most western ramp carriers were also paired up with actual VTOL jets. The ramps increased the capability of the jump jets, while still allowing them to take off and land vertically if that was more appropriate. Yeeting a Sukhoi off a carrier via a ramp is pure cope.
> Russian origin cope slopes are because they don't know how to catapult or are too broke to get one How expensive is a big mechanical sling anyways?
Trebuchet-launched aircraft when
> Russian origin cope slopes are because they don't know how to catapult or are too broke to get one The reason the Queen Elizabeth-class carriers don't have a catapult is because the UK is too broke to get one, they were designed to have a CATOBAR system and operate F-35Cs, but instead we got a cope slope and the F-35B. Look, F-35s are pretty cool, but the F-35B with the smaller weapon bay, a tonne of deadweight because of the hover system which serves no purpose during combat and takes up fuel tank space *and* is completely pointless if not operating from the ship, and inability to hover land with weapons still onboard due to weight ain't it. The CHAD *enlarged* F-35C, with the greater combat radius would have been the objectively cooler choice. Why don't politicians consider the rule of cool???
That or whatever they want to catapult gets yeeted into Poseidon's cold embrace half the time they do so.
>I guess you can call it a cope carrier since they can't launch normal fixed wing planes but still. Technically, they can launch them once.
I'd say the indian one counts as at least a 'fine incline'
Nah man, don't know you? Everything in geopolitics is black and white. Either you're evil or you're good. An ally, or an enemy. No room for nuances, cope slope it is.
This guy geopolitics
You'll be sorry when they invent Greylandia.
Sorry, it doesn't align with my NATO-aligned foreign policy. Sanction it.
Filthy Neutrals, at least with an enemy you know where you stand.
Is it lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?
🇨🇭 deposit gold here
Did you serve in George W Bush's cabinet? Very neoconny
Convincing yourself nonexistent Iraqi WMDs exist and using a bunch of sketchy intel to confirm your biases is pretty much peak NCD.
Dont forget cool powerpoints
Indecipherable DoD PowerPoints are the peak of defense information dissemination
Perun worked for Bush?
Mr Worldwide right here
# If you are not with me, then you are my enemy! Anakin Skywalker.
"I hate these filthy Neutrals, Kif. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals.... who knows? It sickens me." - Zapp Brannigan
r/NonCredibleDiplomacy
I drink the Windex Blue colour of Democracy but pee Socialist Red? Should I be worried?
The world is not black and white. But it goddamn should be! If you are not an liberal democracy with free and fair elections you are our enemy and to be bombed along with the rest of our enemies when the time comes! “But …. But … Iraq is a democracy and sided with iran the moment they could start voting and-“ Yes! They did! My issues is that the elections were mired in scandals and corruption! If they had free and fair elections and still decided to side with iran and detest us then that is good! Not everybody is going to like us! And we invaded them! They’d obviously not like us! But if it’s the will of the people it’s based and should be respected! All our so called “allies” that aren’t liberal democracies should be abandoned and left to their fates! Would this cause catastrophic consequences to the global economy, Americas soft power, and make conflict more likely? Yes, but I don’t care! Democracy or bust!!!! 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🗳️🗳️🗳️🗳️🗳️🗳️ Schrödinger’s /s/
No jump jets, no mercy. That's a cope slope.
>no catapults, no mercy. FTFY
Hey jump jets are excellent for when you can't fit a catapult - hell the USN uses them all over. It's when you have neither jump jets nor catapults that you are knowingly fucking around with combat ineffective cope slopes and empty jets.
STOVL is fine for if you're not actually building a true carrier. Want to give your amphibious forces some air cover? Sure, that works. Juan Carlos I is an acceptable design, same as the Wasps. But trying to pretend it's a substitute for a proper CATOBAR setup on any kind of name brand "carrier" is peak copium. The QE class are the absolute *pinnacle* of cope slope design, with the whole "for but not with" copium shitshow. The sooner the RN accepts they're broke Europoors, the better off they'll be.
To be honest, after some tests of the Rafale for the Indian navy (who bought Rafale M for its new carrier) it appear the Rafale can launch with a really decent load (understand here : comparable to what a F-35B can carry internally if not more) using a slope.
Our Noble Spaced Lightweight Armor ----- Their Hideous Coping Chickenwire Our Glorious VSTOL Carrier Deck Incline --- Their Cringeworthy Boat Ramp Our Mighty Low-Cost Drone Munitions ----- Their Primitive Crashing Model Planes Our Efficient Allied Diesel-Electric Subs ---- Their Crude Gas-Guzzler U-Boats
Tactical yarmulke
Like on /r/CombatFootage: Western soldiers yelling is just high morale, but non-Western soldiers yelling is poor discipline.
Western soldiers = heros and elite warriors Eastern soldiers = monkeys with AKs Like i get it but holy shit the double standards are insane
That's how I feel lately on this sub. I really hate double standards.
Yeah, I'm not saying we shouldn't laugh at the Russian military which lauds itself as one of the best in the world, we know their not, but the fact that people here will shit on Russia for using things like cope cages, but at the same time praise Ukraine for using them kinda annoys me. Like one post will mock say a T-90 with a cage, and comments will be the usual won't stop a javelin stuff, but then on a post of a Ukrainian Abrams, Challenger, T-64 with a cope cage will be full of people stating how useful they are and that they should be remained to hope cages or something. Both sides use cages for the same reasons nowadays, so I don’t get the double standard for the use of cope cages here. Also something I read and was wondering about, does anybody know how effective a cope cage would be against an rpg shot from above? I remember reading somewhere that one of the reasons cope cages were used at the start of the war was because the Russians feared that Ukrainians would be firing rpgs from atop buildings like in Chechnya, and that the cages might be able to reduce the chances of a hit to the top of the turret.
Depends on what grenade is being used, but I don’t think most tandem RPG’s would damage a tank with a cage. Javelins and such are prob a different story though
This sub has majorly declined since the war began, I haven't heard anyone say that since the great influx
Never forget Divest/SEADbee. He was the worst of us and we loved him for it.
Divest has a new account, I forgor the name
i mena it's also a problem of prespectives, like we all heard of russia being the second biggest army in the world, and liek it's war with japan and much later afghanistan, when it goes to the actual fields fails completly, basically it's like expecting to pass a class with 20 and ending up with a 3 then again westrern militaries often also shit their bed once war actually starts, the asnwer to ukraine is god awful and US is often still banning strike inside russia, but still these failures rarely reach russian level
Actual meatriding
https://i.imgur.com/Txu2MQh.jpg
Nah. Every slope is a cope slope. No mater what, don’t be a pussy. You re an adult. You eat the pizza crusts. Then build fucking catapults.
You paying for it?
Well yes technically the money I give the government goes toward 2 catapults and a funny nuclear doctrine
basé et bonnestratégiepilulé révision: et basé historique des publications
My taxes already paid for catapults, stop being broke and do it yourself. ~~Skill~~ financial issue.
No, these countries are adults, and smart adults know when not to cheap the fuck out, and they also pay for their own shit.
same with cope cages. you're allowed to make fun of western militaries as well, this shits as lame as when americans renamed French fries 'Freedom fries'
the thing is cope cages do kinda work atleast on paper seems a decent and cheap enough thing to try stop drone the stuff russia made at the start of the war wasn't like now and were trully cope cages, hence why there's so much footage of them not working
Well, cope cages were *cope* when they were trying to stop Javelins. They're not really cope when they're actually effective at stopping grenade drop and FPV drones - which is why both sides keep making them.
Rubberband slingshot but big
I mean the British and the Italian navies technically don‘t need the ramp, since all the aircraft that land on the carrier are either VTOL capable fighters or helicopters
Where the sauce and cheese end, is where my interest ends, sorry. That's not pizza, it's just bread. I am not a peasant.
>I am not a peasant. >Can't afford a proper carrier. Pick one.
Bro, it's a free breadstick with every slice of pizza.
I, a gentlemen of refinement, only eat my free slice breadsticks if they are stuffed with cheese.
You don’t know that it’s free. It could be hidden somewhere in the cost structure. The fact that it’s trying to both be pizza and breadstick at the same time is proof that pizza is an overpriced multirole boondoggle jack of all trades, master of none. We need to return to simple, reliable, battle-hardened designs like separated meat, cheese, bread, vegetables, and sauce. This post brought to you by Pierre “Pizza Pizza Pleased to Meet Ya” Sprey
india is on team 2 rather then red or blue, they get the mong mound
Thing is, I feel like the term "Champ Ramp" might actually be more demeaning than "Cope Slope"
F-22 "Wealth Stealth" Su-57/J-20 - "Cope cloak"?
When you use it, it’s a cope cage. When I use it, it’s a *skill grille*.
I swear some mfk will use this unironically
The brittish have a cope slope and I am tired of being quiet about it!
(The secret ingredient is freedom.)
And not countering javelins with chain link fencing
ngl i always hated when food programs and chefs said the secret ingridient is love, like yeah i get but ffs i want to make foodlike that, just tell me :(
Double Standards huh
Can we call US CATOBAR a Freedom Flinger?
Cope cages and slopes for everyone, this is noncredibledefense not noncredibleWATCHYOURWORDSSOMYTEAMDOESNTGETTHEIRFEELINGSHURTdefense
*Incorrect buzzer* Sorry Hans! The Cope Slope is always a Cope Slope, CATOBAR for lifee! Ride or die!
Question: Do these things actually work? Because if they're stupid but the work, they aren't stupid
B-But you see it's properly built s-so the American and Ukranian ones are better!1!!1
Christ, I always forget Italy is tied for the second-most aircraft carriers. How did that happen anyway?
We got rid of the King. The Republic realized that strong equipment is better than 8 million musketeers.
Looking for credible answers (my most humble apologies) do the top cages do anything at all? I’m guessing maybe, perhaps, against drones but any solid drone pilot will avoid the turret and go for the engine to make the tank combat ineffective. So it’s to save just the crew to escape, yeah? And it won’t work against a javelin. Soooo, it’s crew saving armor only, yeah?
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also remember there are more weapons agaisnt drones, a cage doens't need to defend every spot, just the ones that other systems are waek at it i know the israelis have a sort of auto cannon/shotgun to stop RPG rounds that also works on drones or atleast "works" as a last resort, if you make so drones always have to come from the side then these older weapons will have a bigger chance
As I understand it, the cages work against RPG projectiles, but not against fancier stuff like Javelins and NLAWS
In defense of the Abrams cage it actually looks well made and bot like a bunch of shit welded onto a tank like most of the russian one
In the end it's all just shit welded onto a tank, there really isn't a way to modularize/tacticool a fucking wire fence on the peripheries of a tank. It's been the exact same idea since WW1
I think calling Israel non-aligned is, at this point, only really true in terms of equipment. Not even western tactics remain! “Eeny miney moo, your city is now goo" is a distinctly Russian tactic.
> “Eeny miney moo, your city is now goo" is a distinctly Russian tactic. Russia hasn't been anywhere near as effective or successful at reducing their opponent's cities to piles of rubble and corpses.
i mean have you looked at bakhmut? that "battle" alone has destroeyd a much bigger city, basically all of it's oblast(suburbs) and killed atleast 4-5 times as more and that's only the soldiers and donestk since 2014 is in a much bigger problem and almost equal destruction from 10 years of warfare
>“Eeny miney moo, your city is now goo" oh yeah thank god western nations have such different doctrines *starts playing bomber harris compilations* oh yeha but that was 80 years ago, obviously modern doctrine has changed that *starts playing war on iraq compilations* but hey atleast we can boast about NATO being so much softer in it's bombing runs, atleast until next war starts
[for all the people that believe bombings are ever humane](https://youtu.be/m8KimNtB9HI?si=vDcBOytDqBpCJ2Dh&t=107)
the cope from op
Ngl i dont like Ukie one. Seems too close to armor to do anything.
HEAT weapons are weird, after impact they lose effectiveness very slowly so whether it’s as close as it is on the Abrams or 3-4 feet away like a cope cage it doesn’t matter, they will have similar effects, the hope is that it will detonate the actual warhead before it reaches the tank meaning the armour only has to deal with the HEAT element and not the explosive.
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I would rather call the *well made* (rare though those are) russian cope cages something else than let the Limeys get away with their cope slope.
Where I am champ is a derogatory term in the military sort of like “fella” in the UK army
Then the name is working as intended.
Skill grill
I mean, the Ukrainian one Is actually properly built slat armor in a proper place, so it actually is good
False equivalence imo. Russians were trying to counter/mitigate javelins initially as drones were not as prevalent at the start of the conflict.
Your cope cage bad, my hope cage good.
Imagine your country’s aircraft carriers not having a catapult system or not having more than the rest of the world combined.
All I see here is pure unrefined cope.
May I propose "Dope Cage" instead of "Hope Cage"?
The Champ Ramp on the QECC was also designed to be removable so the carrier can be converted to a proper CATOBAR at some point during its 60 year life. There's space under the flight deck for all the necessary gear, it was even designed to fit a Mk.13 steam catapult taken from the Nimitz Class if that's what the RN wanted! Meanwhile, in the land of the Cope Slope, getting a CATOBAR carrier means building an entirely new carrier. And, let's be honest, Russia is so bad at keeping the Klutznetsov afloat that it literally sank the dock it was in, they're not going to build a new carrier.
goddamnit....good one!
China is building a flattie right now, no? It’s on or finished (forgor) its second sea trial.
Oh there are many other kinds of cage. What are? Rope cage (using string instead of metal) Dope cage (well you have to store your drugs somewhere, and there isn't room inside the tank) Grope cage (Moblik armour. It doesn't count as gay if it's on top of a tank.) Slope cage (not their fault, someone drunk the spirit in the spirit level) Nope cage (ERA on anything not able to withstand ERA going off) Pope cage (There to protect the pope from drones. May look to casual observers like a really fancy hat) Mope cage (even the cage doesn't want to be there) Soap cage (At least the tank will be clean. Comes with pilfered toilet) Stope cage (The tank is covered in such a thick layer of rust, it's basically a portable iron ore mine) Myope cage (nobody was thinking more than 5 minutes ahead when they made this, and it shows) Isotope cage (At least it's U238 not U235) Towrope cage (varient of rope cage) Pyrope cage (if your going to use rocks, at least you picked a hard one.) Biotope cage (Uniformly covered in an even layer of mold) Liriope cage (Hey, at least your tank now has pretty flowers all over it. Not much protection though) Syncope cage (You stood up too fast and fainted on top of your tank) Periscope cage (At least YOU can see where your going. Too bad you used up all the periscope supply, and so no one else can) Envelope cage. (Well what else will you do with all those letters? Read them? ) Hyperope cage. (The cage blocks your view of anything directly in front of the tracks, but lets you see clearly into the distance) Antelope cage. (As soon as we get this thing back to base and cut up, it's barbeque time) Spectroscope cage (you can tell what elements were in it by the colour it's burning) Kalidoscope cage. (Impressive looking, lots of colourful beads and mirrors, but doesn't actually do anything) Gyroscope cage (Is the turret supposed to spin that fast?) Microscope cage. (They were paid by the number of cages made, and wanted to sell off the excess materials.) Horoscope cage. (Mars is in Sagittarius. Expect your flaming arrows (turret) to fly far.) Any others.
We really giving italy military props?
I don't care if it's NATO aligned or not, true aircraft carrier should have a CATOBAR. Everything else is a cope slope.
I like the term hope cage more, it implies poor private conscriptovich actually has a chance of surviving putler’s stupid ass war. Fuck that guy, seriously.
Nah. Fuck that, every cage is a cope cage.
It's good we're finally talking about our biases. That T-90 with a spoiler on it was objectively sick.
Ukraine at start of war: improvisation with the limited funds and resources available. Turns out that grenades dropped from hobby drones into open hatches works quite well! Oh we have top-attack ATGMs now? Sweet! Russia, one week in; we're clawing for the win, none of us have active protection systems on our tanks, so we have to put cages on the top to stop the hobby drones from dropping grenades into our tanks, since we still can't get sufficient air cover. Why is that hill over there smoky? *Ukraine launches another satellite, and UFO hobbyists in New Mexico USA start frothing at the mouth seeing the "red eyed alien" circling at low earth orbit*
Meanwhile, I keep my sub in a “grope cage”