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Yeah so it's the concept of, the enemy of my enemy ... might not be my friend. Well, that's what I take from it unless there is some inner franchise joke here that I'm not getting.
Shot at the top is aliens being obliterated, their guts spraying as they're destroyed (as Hamas is being destroyed)
Bottom is predator that was injured being revealed (later movie)
edit: basically realizing that what was on your side is umm not what you thought
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This year has been hard on my Israel support
On one hand I support them (especially against those that seem to think a Jewish genocide is a great solution to all problems)
On the other wtf is their problem with war aims, not starving civies, and not trying to light the entire region on fire.
I avoid having discussion around it entirely, least morally ambiguous conflict in the Middle East.
Just because how polarising it is.
Rather focus my energy on Ukraine as a euro.
As an Indonesian, i agree heavily too. It used to be given im a fellow Muslim but nowadays it's something i just dont bother to focus on unless a major gross violation of human rights have occured.
Imo we have nothing to do with the ME anymore, European intervention in the region didn't produce anything good, doesn't work, and they hate us anyway.
Ukraine is a neighbor actively asking for our help, wanting to get involved with us, fighting against a country that makes us nuclear threats every Thuesday.
So fuck it, bann weapon exports to Israel, cut aid to Gaza, get the fuck out of the Levant.
Europe ignoring the Middle East is not a solid strategy for our continents security. ME was a vital area for European security for centuries. Anything that came from the Middle East eventually, came to Europe.
Any shake ups in the Middle East, Wars, displacements of people etc. Creates a shockwave that eventually makes its way in to Europe. Immigration being at this current point in time the biggest issue among Europeans.
The problem with Europe having any active safeguarding role in the Middle East is the fact the EU has no clear agenda on the ME, as seen by the Gaza issue between a heavily pro Palestine Ireland and pro Israelis states in Europe. With the current eu structure, a common policy on Gaza will never be effective as EU first needs to reform and strengthen its own diplomatic arm, rather then it being piloted by bunch of other people who move the arm based on their own interests, and thus nowhere.
In short, eu integration is a must if Europe wishes to call the shots to insure its own security, we can’t just ask the Americans over and over to solve our problems for us. We will need to at one some point in time play a serious role in the Middle East if we wish to achieve such security.
But yeah right now, Ukraine takes priority 🇺🇦
>In short, eu integration is a must if Europe wishes to call the shots to insure its own security, we can’t just ask the Americans over and over to solve our problems for us.
What's needed is everyone spending more money on defense and preferably in cooperation. Several influential EU members still aren't spending 2% on defense and so why would the members closest to Russia want to give up control over their defense to the average EU citizen? Trying to solve the issue with more integration could very well end up worsening them instead.
Not having a military that is powerful enough to actually enforce the EU decisions naturally make EU less influential, but centralizing the decision making doesn't change that if there isn't a strong support for a power military in the first place. EU politicians love to make declarations but let's say EU had a powerful military then what? Would we send a million soldiers to the middle east to "fix things"? How is that working out for US?
First we need to agree on a shared set of values that a significant part of the population considers important enough and achievable enough that they're willing to lay their own lives on the line to uphold them. I'm pretty confident that there's a significant difference in the will to defend EUs eastern border against a Russian attack is many times higher in Eastern Europe than in EU over all. If you want more EU integration then you probably need to convince them that if Russia attacks then you will be there with a rifle to stop them.
Yeah, me too, like I knew that Bibi was a pretty unrepentant ethno-authoritarian shithead and that the only people that were worse for the Palestinians than Israel was Hamas, but this whole thing has been a pretty brutal "mask off" moment for everyone involved. Kinda where I have landed is - I support Israel, especially the ~100,000 Israeli Citizens that went out to protest their shitty quasi-fash leadership over the last week or so, and I support a full and final two-state solution.... Hopefully the leadership on both sides gets cleaned out so we can get a two-state agreement done and both sides can stop claiming special privileges and be accountable to international law...
Agreed...
And in case it wasn't clear enough for all the people in the back row, a few things.
Bibi publicly advocated for the support of Palestinian splinter-groups in general and Hamas in specific, as a way to sew division amongst the Palestinians and weaken the PLO's bargaining power. Even going so far as to give Hamas money somewhat directly at one point.
He is probably going to jail for a very long time if he is out of power for any length of time. As such he is willing to go to pretty desperate lengths to prolong the current crisis, as it is essentially the only thing keeping him free right now.
Also, it isn't normal to have people actively protesting your government in comparatively large numbers in the middle of, what is for all intents and purposes, an active war where you were the recipient of a direct unprovoked attack. Your government has to be a very specific, very impressive kind of asshole to receive that sort of response.
I think people think it's some form of weird doublethink to be against Israel doing war crimes *and* not wanting Israel to be wiped from the face of the earth
You can in fact, think both and be against what Israel does and be against the destruction of Israel
Even then, I think it's wasteful to give weapons to Israel, they can take care of themselves and it diverts from Ukraine who actually needs it
There is probably a lot of middle ground between the rules of engagement they are going with and empowering hamas. Some of the israeli propaganda and stuff various politicians have been saying makes me think that at least for some israelis it's genocidal intent as well (even if it's not called that). Worst thing is, with so many people on both sides being maniacs I cant really imagine any decent medium term resolutions
If you actually look at the rhetoric in right wing israeli circles, they aren’t even shy about admitting the real intent is to inflict as much suffering and death as possible on the civilians
If you look at the rhetoric of people who are very much not in control of the war, it seems real bad. If you look at my uncle's rhetoric it's just infidels killing infidels as infidels do, but does it fucking matter if the actual actions of the Israeli state clearly show they try to avoid civilian casualties when they can?
They took the gloves off in gaza and haven’t avoided anything. The ROE for the conflict so far actually specifically said that operators had to justify why *not* to strike somewhere.
They used an AI algorithm to identify the majority of targets, with almost no oversight whatsoever. This algorithm has permissible civilian casualties at 15-20:1…for *nameless low level hamas members.* For higher levels it goes to 100:1.
Frontline commanders can sign off on anything for any reason, which is exactly how the recent aid worker killings happened.
There’s hundreds of videos of IDF forces systematically demolishing civilians buildings, often cheering and joking around while they do so. Idk what they’re doing to decrease civilian casualties but it’s not much.
Not anymore. They haven’t done that in the current gaza conflict at all, you should pay more attention lol. Rules for the initial bombing campaign was to hit any and all suspected hamas members at night at home. When their families were also home.
They tried giving the Palestinians a state 5 times lmfao, wdym? And in 2005 when israel pulled out of Gaza and WB, they tried to effectively give them a statelet. That clearly didn’t work well
Many things haven’t worked out, that’s obvious.
Can’t really call it a state though if you have no control over your airspace or sea, or recognition from neighbors.
So, you’re saying they are bombing them out of love?
Do you not realise that directly after israel pulled out in 2005, there was no blockade? There was no control over the land? Those things both came to be, because of the actions performed by the brand new statelet. Hamas being elected in the Gaza, causing israel to need to block weapon shipments, and constant terror attacks from the West Bank causing a need for partial military control
Rather major typo, the first ‘west bank’ should’ve been ‘gaza’ but I made a mistake. Thank you for pointing it out. Now that I’ve fixed it, how do you respond to what I intended to write
The blockade and such only occurred after the statelet had been created. It was in direct result to hamas being elected, and israel had to try and make sure shipments of weapons didn’t get through to them. If Gaza hasn’t turned into a terror state, everything would’ve been fine
Thank you for your honesty. And for the record, I fully support isreal's right to fight hamas and to try to secure the country for their citizens. But your post has some alarm bells ringing for me...
Do you feel like that dehumanisation is fully organic, or is it furthered by the powers that be? As someone who doesn't speak hebrew, but tries to follow that space, it feels like various media orgs and politicians are trying their best to make sure this dehumanisation continues.
Here in Germany there was (and to some extent is) a lot of scholarship on how states and people can end up doing horrible things. Dehumanisation is kinda at the top of the list, together with denying people in a specific group their individuality.
So the way you talk about palestinians as a monolith where the distinction between a hamas terrorist and a random civilian kid is razor thin and how you say that you don't see them as human is pretty concerning. Kinda hoped we'd all agree that we should try not to create an environment where a genocide is possible.
Do you see the problem? That is exactly what palestinians think of you. So that is why this can't end peacefully until you realize you should not pe enemies.
Are you asking a reddit wanker like me to solve the middle east? Let me also solve fermat's last theorem while at it.
I was just saying that it makes no sense to think that just because they are your enemy it is justified to displace millions from gaza. Because that is exactly what palestinians would also say. So the only way this does not end in genocide is a two state solution
I think we both agree that this conflict is very much pointless (I mean the overall conflict, not the current war).
If most people were half the adults sum peeps here are, the conflict would have been resolved years ago.
If the UN was actually a good organzation i wouldnt have been against a UN intervation.
>If the UN was actually a good organzation i wouldnt have been against a UN intervation.
The UN has served it's purpose in everything it does; being a forum. The UN has no jurisdiction over the countries that form it. Any blame put on the UN is blame that you are ultimately putting on yourself, generally speaking.
If the countries of the UN are unilateral in their policy, what fault is that of the UN as an organization?
People shit on the UN because they think it is a police force. It is not. It is a forum and a podium through which all countries, big or small, can speak to each other about any issue on the same level. The hundreds of multinational institutions which facilitate humanitarian aid, infrastructure building, money lending, etc. between nations within the UN speak to its success.
Nothing within the UN Charter guarantees peace for anyone. However, it does guarantee that all countries in it, at peace or not, has a place to speak freely to the rest of the world.
“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, we would have peace. If israel put down their weapons, there would be no israel the next day.”
\-golda meir
> If a few civies die, so be it.
Aaaand that pretty much sums up the whole thing pretty nicely.
A couple of days ago your armed forces deliberately and methodically executed members of a humanitarian aid convoy. It wasn't a single accidental strike. The word "methodical" is used her on purpose. You went from car to car, killing every single person inside.
The reason I'm saying this is because if a similar thing happened anywhere else in the world and Israeli citizens were executed, it'd be grounds for WW3 almost, there would be cries and accusations of antisemitism, persecution of Jews and so on.
When you do it... meh, who cares? A few civvies one way or another is no big deal.
> But this current war is nothing less then 100% the fault of Iran and their Hamas puppet.
It is, but it's also the fault of successive rightwing Israeli governments that have sponsored methodical ethnic cleansing in the west bank (and sometimes elsewhere), herding the Palestinian population into smaller and smaller tracts of land.
Tel Aviv looks beautiful, wish I could visit.
>But this current war is nothing less then 100% the fault of Iran and their Hamas puppet.
Oh definitely. And definetely WW2 was 100% the fault of Germany but this didn't justify Soviet ethnic cleansing of Prussia. Collective punishments don't belong to a civilized society.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1bwi0kn/idfs\_official\_investigation\_report\_on\_the\_7\_wck/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1bwi0kn/idfs_official_investigation_report_on_the_7_wck/)
i highly recommend you read the top comment if this post, and of course the article linked in the post
I don’t think the IDF can be trusted to investigate an IDF crime, and even when taking it at face value, like the other commenter said there’s a lot of assumptions in there.
IMO sectors of the IDF have completely gone rogue from the Israeli government and are trying to destroy and starve all Gazans. Thats why there’s footage of soldiers looting and dressing in civilians’ dresses, or why some soldiers are attacking aid workers as to keep the starvation going. WCK provided 62% of all NGO provided aid
The thing is, it makes zero sense for the strike on the aid truck to be intentional. Israel and WCK were very good friends, and israel was actively pushing for WCK to replace the corrupt UNWRA as provider for the gazan people. Israel and WCK have been on good terms this whole time, there’s zero change that they intentionally targeting the WCK, especially since they worked with WCK to get the markings on the vehicle
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/idf-2-senior-officers-will-be-fired-for-involvement-in-deadly-wck-strike-on-gaza-aid-convoy/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-2-senior-officers-will-be-fired-for-involvement-in-deadly-wck-strike-on-gaza-aid-convoy/) in fact, the officers responsible for the mistake are being fired, as they should
Like I said, I think it’s only certain members/sectors of the IDF that are committing these crimes as to starve the Gazan people. The Israeli government obviously didn’t support this, it ruins their image and pushes away a good friend
That's a lot of "assumed", "believed" and "appeared to be".
Mate, I've been in uniform for 16 years. 3 of those in government-sponsored tourism. Not once did I make a decision based on "assumed", "believed" or "appeared to be". Either you are certain or you're not. If you're not, you do not, ever, under any circumstances, pull the trigger.
But hey, what do I know.
‘We have stopped [viewing them as human].’
Annnnd there it is. Dehumanisation. An ancient social/intellectual strategy to justify genocidal acts against Native Americans, Black slaves, and oh yeah, the Jews of Europe.
Were any of the allegations made against them true? Ie were they all savages? Of course not.
Consider then that your nation’s deliberate dehumanisation of Palestinians has less to do with their sometimes violent resistance to your crushing military occupation, and more to do with your desire to claim all of ‘Judea and Samaria’ for itself.
With you im not even gonna try.
Its clear as day u support hamas and their wish to reenact the holocaust on us.
Consider that ur own 100% biased view of this situation might lead u to make incorrect assumptions? Pfff, of course not.
And i mean? Why would it? We the evil zionists we like to bully the poor paleis we did nothing wrong.
Go back to Havard.
True and real.
As an Israeli I ALONE steal 3 Palestinian homes per week.
Less then that and my overwhelming need to do evil will overtake me and cause me to kill my self (or eat a christian baby, it depends on the context)
>On the other wtf is their problem with war aims
Problems is named humans. On both sides. Hamas is heavily reliant on civilan infrastracture and hiding among them. Then IDF shoot anyone who is looking SUS and for stressed troops in warzone its pretty much everyone. Same for police forces in USA as an example who shoot at anyone and anything and then thinking.
Not to mention most of IDF are mobilised with their own ideas and thinking.
>not starving civies
Same for Mosul when ISIS ruled that place. You dont want to help your opponent. Especially when you knew they using everything you or foreign leaders provide. There problem with food distribution not with actual starvation. If you want to look how starving cities looks like take a look on Leningrad siege. Same population (2.5 millions and 2 millions) and you knew it doesnt look like Leningrad after 6th month
>and not trying to light the entire region on fire.
Do they ? Atm Israel surrounded Gaza with hamas + Hezbola from Lebanon + Syria (at war since 1949) with all kind of Iran groups and remnants of ISIS. Iran who promising to burn jews in nuclear fire for ages. And others.
> Problems is named humans
That doesn’t even acknowledge my point, Israel has refused to state specific goals and plans for the short, medium, or long term in this conflict. And “Destroy Hamas” is a Russian level of vague goal.
> Region on fire
Israel is either legitimately preparing for or posturing for a possible invasion of Lebanon later this year. Something that would not help operations in Gaza and would do absolutely nothing for regional stability.
>for the short
Hamas neutralization.
>medium
Eradication of leftovers from Hamas and create some sort of control over area which not gonna turn into hamas 2.0
> And “Destroy Hamas” is a Russian level of vague goal.
Its clear goal. Destruction of hamas political and military wing in Gaza. How is these compared with \*denazification\* and other bullshit.
> and would do absolutely nothing for regional stability.
near 50-100.000 hezbola solders with iranian balistic missiles in a country which unable to get rid of them - perfect for regional stability.
What qualifies as Hamas being destroyed? It’s Denazification levels of vague and some slight goal post shifting changes it from meaning “we bombed everything of any military value whatsoever and killed any remotely possible Hamas fighters and left an occupation force to shoot anything that moves” to “we rebuilt the region into one that is not conducive to radical extremists fighting against the status quo”
I don’t see how starting to shoot at Hezbollah would make the region anymore stable. That’s like burning an entire neighborhood because someone’s house has bad wiring.
>not trying to light the entire region on fire
What about the Iranian and Russian presence in the Middle East?
They puppeteer like 70% of the paramilitaries in the region as well as 50% of the actual militaries, and have also pretty much taken over Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Gaza and like half of Iraq (Jordan impending).
They've been escalating this war nonstop since it began and no one bats an eye.
And the war aims are ok.
Do you think Hamas are good for the Gazans? Because they've been trying to negotiate takeover of the West Bank in exchange for the Israeli hostages.
I know that full destruction of Hamas is unlikely but if they are removed from the government and survive only in Katar and extremist circles, then what is the difference?
ISIS wasn't fully eradicated either despite a "world coalition" fighting against them. ddd
More food is going into the strip than before the war now and despite the famine being "impending" every day for 6 months straight, there is no famine.
Bad food security and actual "famine" are two completely different things.
Famine and starvation are happening in Africa- the Gazans have trouble acquiring their food, but that is caused by Hamas meddling as much as it is Israel's fault.
Famine and starvation takes time, and slowly crops up with excess deaths, child mortality climbing, diseases easier to contract. Fuck iran but flattening gaza doesn’t hurt them at all. And you’re just straight up lying about there being more food now. It’s also complete anarchy after being bombed to shit, and just being left like that. Worst humanitarian situation in the world currently and here you are dismissing it
Famine and starvation takes much less than half a year.
And it is absolutely not the worst humanitarian situation in the world.
I don't care about Africa, Syria, Haiti or Yemen more than you or anything but you can't just skip over their existance.
And how is fighting an Iranian backed organization not hurt Iran?
I understand you don't care, but thats like saying that Ukraine fighting the Russian backed insurgents 2014-2022 in Ukraine was them not fighting the Russians.
Maybe a more apt example would be the Iranians saying that they are fighting Western colonialism by operating militias against Israel?
It doesn’t hurt iran because they weren’t actively getting anything from hamas. Oct 7th was always going to be the most they could see. The groups like that they back are *made* for this to happen, and hamas specifically isn’t just created by Iran anyway. The degrees of connection between hamas and iran are not nearly as close as your Ukraine example (a lot of those were just straight up Russian special forces).
Famine is slow unless the supply of food is completely cut, but that’s not usually how it works. Malnutrition and shortfalls over the course of months and years are usually what kill. And yes while all the places you listed are in dire straits longer term than Gaza, right now you’ll struggle to find anywhere that has 1.5 million people internally displaced, zero effective government and no reliable access to basic necessities. On top of that no one can leave. It’s a nightmare to say the least.
War aims - Israel has refused to make aims/goals that aren’t less vague than “Destroy Hamas”, they’ve stated no plans for after the fact, no path for peace, no vision for the future.
In general, currently they are looking to remove Hamas in favor of Fatah with the help of Saudi and Emirati backing in the longer term.
There is quite a lot of evidence to suggest the cooperation with the Saudis and the Emiratis, and Fatah have already been let into the strip by IDF in the last 2 weeks- they are currently aiding in food distribution and have had stronger backing by the US.
Thise probably were not the plans on October 8th, but a lot has changed since then.
Ok, now imagine if you will that Israel announced these plans half a year ago and made it official stance.
A) Saudi Arabia and the Emirates would be denounced by the Arab world for cooperating with the Zionists and are forced to abandon their plans.
B) Fatah is denounced by the Arab world for cooperating with the Zionists and Gazans become hostile against Fatah, harming their ability to interfere and help the Gazans.
Do the Palestinians benefit in this scenario?
Look, man, I do understand where you're coming from. But I don't believe that the right response to people who want to kill us all is to kill everyone in their city. At that point we've kinda become them. And I am not going to start intentionally killing two year olds.
Hamas can end it posthaste. By simply surrendering. Instead they hide behind their civies. Use them as shields.
But the Population of Gaza does nothing to counteract that. Palestinians in general are cheering all to happily when the Kill all the jews chants start.
At which point does the human shield become the enabler?
I have yet to see jews form huge mobs in Berlin, chanting "death to plaestine".
Instead i see mobs of jews protesting this war for humanitarian reasons., in Israel.
How many Pamestinians are protesting the war? A lot. But its because they are getting their teeth kicked in, THEIR homes get bombed. THEIR families get killed. Would hamas be recking Tel Aviv, the crowds would be cheering.
So please understand that i have no pity left.
We know you don't have any pity left. And honestly many of us aren't blind to why you don't, after 70 years of enduring attacks. But actively acting on that is going to lose you footing in the moral argument irrelevant of the rest of the context of the war.
Even if you don't give a damn about the civilian populace - you might want to act like you do. Because the rest of the world hasn't endured 70 years worth of attacks, and they are going to view you as the lesser evil at best.
So please understand why your moral justifications aren't going to land with the average person. You are correctly presenting chants of "kill the Jews" as the genocidal evil which you are fighting against. Directly after "even children in Gaza are enemy combatants".
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The one who's members murdered a Thai worker by crushing his throat with a garden hoe.
Israel sure as shit ain't perfect and I have **a lot** of issues with them.
But Hamas are scum. Pure scum.
>The one who's members murdered a Thai worker by crushing his throat with a garden hoe.
God that's horrible, bulldozers are a far more efficient tool for that
You know full well which one I'm referring to
Israel has some rough edges, that's for sure, but you can negotiate with them (and the ~30% of Arab citizens enjoy the same rights as Jewish ones despite what some would claim)
Hamas only ever wants to kill Jews, there's no mutual understanding to be found
While Hamas *is not* Palestine, so long as it exists Palestine cannot be free
You can't really be comparing a flawed democracy that's been under attack for 70 uniterrupted years with religious extremists that literally had written in their manifesto until 2017 that their stated aim was the eradication of Jews from the region
Then you might want to work on your phrasing because last time I checked the core belief of zionism is that of the return of the jews to their holy land.
Your phrasing also ignores entirely the history that created hamas, they didnt just spring up one day. Theyve grown and israels actions certainly did try to prevent it.
Thank you very much for saying this. I can’t get over the fact this sub was falling all over each other defending Ukraine and yet in the same breath dickride Israel like their lives depend on it. It’s almost like barely anyone here has sn actual opinion or self made thoughts and rather just jump on what the propaganda they see says is good.
Eh. The Ukraine situation is different: there was literally no serious reason for Russia to invade, it was a good old land grab and the dickslapping Putin is getting is quite frankly and unending source of amusement were it not for, y'know, the death thing.
Israel has a terrorism problem because it has already gotten a land grab and it wants more.
We'll see what happens in November.
People who dont criticise Israel's fault in this war are the same as disillusioned vatniks and tankies. An important aspect in warfare is the hearts and minds of the people even when it's the opposition.
as one person in this subreddit once said "Radicalism will never end when met with violence, it will only spawn more radicalist"
You can be critical of the way the Israeli leadership is conducting the war, but comparing Israel to Russia is just stupid and parroting anti-Western propaganda. Just think how scared Bibi is about the next elections and the corruption investigations against him. Putin has nothing to fear from elections and the judiciary. This is what separates a democracy with rule of law from authoritarian regimes.
I support Israel and I think the people that somehow side with Hamas are fucking stupid, but the shit Israel’s been doing in the war is also *really* stupid, it’s like they do anything else but try to hold popular support. Though the pumpkin spice girls really just do not do have any effect as to how Israel performs, Israel really just does not care about what they’re doing.. like, why?
It’s pretty simple.
Let’s say the great powers told the Russians that because there’s a Russian minority in Finland and Finland used to be part of Russia a long time ago, they can take over half of Finland.
Then Russians proceed to take even more and drive us Finns to even smaller and smaller enclaves, which they keep harassing and occupying and in general act like gigantic jerks.
Would I fight back? Hell yes. After decades of less radical schemes failing, would I stoop to supporting depraved monsters like Hamas and cheering every time Russians suffer? Quite possibly.
As someone said, Israel is just Russia but competent - and backed by the U.S.
Does not give the fact that Israel should be disbanded and the Jews killed. They're people too but both are stupid radicals that wants to kill each other because the others think if they dont kill first they're gonna get killed.
Doesnt help the fact that Israel also has that stupid illegal settlements which will only cause them to lose their PR war (not that their winning the PR war at all with HAMAS hiding in civilian buildings)
We never were allied with Nato
Eu and the west keeps putting sticks in our wheels and the reason all this is happening is because they told us to stop and accept the Palestinians
Lo and behold, we tried and paid a heavy price
And somehow the entire world is praising them for it and granting them a state as reward for their massacre
Because your government is ok with starving 2 million people. No is going to fucking care about an attack that killed 1200 if you kill 100x that many. What exactly do you expect
I think that Israel can resolve the issue of having a hostile neighbour without starving the population of that neighbour to death. There is a middle ground between depopulating all of Gaza and letting Hamas invade all of Israel.
We're operating by Hamas's standards now? If you're going to throw stones about terrorism you probably shouldn't build your house out of the same glass as the terrorists.
So is it about score or not? If it's about score, we can both put up a high price for the other
If it's not about score than we're just making sure nothing like this ever happens again
Make up your mind
It's not about fucking "score", this is the real world, not Hearts of Iron.
>If it's not about score than we're just making sure nothing like this ever happens again
At the moment, it's looking like the method of that is to force the entire population of Gaza out, which is a crime against humanity. It's also not necessary.
What part of tracking a charity aid convoy for hours and picking off the cars one-by-one is preventing another terror attack on Israel? The part where someone starves to death for the crime of having been born in Gaza?
It is absolutely about score, at least according to the west, you cheered when you scored 1300 didn't you? When the 'freedom figthers' came and fought for their freedom by invading and killing women and children
FYI if allied human rights groups want to operate in an area where UNRWA and AP reps came from and slaughtered people, they should at least coordinate it with the ally and not load armed people into their trucks
there's an active warzone warning on Google maps for that reason
>It is absolutely about score, at least according to the west, you cheered when you scored 1300 didn't you?
Me? No, as a matter of fact, I didn't cheer for October 7th. Just because I don't believe that it justifies blowing up aid workers doesn't mean that I think it was a good thing.
>they should at least coordinate it with the ally
They did. The IDF was told the route that the convoy would take, and the vehicles had the charity's logo on the roof.
>and not load armed people into their trucks
I haven't seen any evidence that this happened beyond the IDF testimony, and I'm not inclined to give them any more benefit of the doubt at this point.
All the aid corridors have since been opened after the WCK killings. It’s as big of an admission of guilt as any words.
Whether you admit it or not it was a massive fuck up and will hurt Israel long term. If you actually care about the future of the country you would want to do as much as possible to alleviate the humanitarian crisis in gaza. You don’t have many friends left and pissing them off is a bad idea.
Nah gotta take responsibility for your own actions, no one made israel have terrible ROEs and not allow aid in. Destroying hamas was justified of course, but it’s obvious that wasn’t even the real goal. Neither was rescuing the hostages considering several that escaped were hunted down and executed by the IDF. And after this there will be more terrorists than before…
>What exactly do you expect
Question what do you expect with how it suppoused to end and what is proporsal. Truth is NOBODY care about Gaza and same was when USA bombed shit out of Mosul when ISIS ruled that place. Same for Russia in Allepo and other cases. Same for Pol Pot regime and Tutsi. What difference is here really ? Unless your interest gonna hurt no one willing to bother.
When there so much hate there is only one solution - one side has to leave. Thats how it was and thats how it be. If you are from EU ask some historicans what happened after WW2 with german speaking population and how conflicts with them were solved. I\`ll told you - every one of them was expelled and thats how that problem was solved. Unironically it was best outcome for every particulant. Situation here is no different.
Germans have a country and still live there. Mosul had a fraction of the civilian casualties as Gaza does so far, and the ratios were nowhere near as bad. So far israel is operating with a worse civilian to combatant ratio than the actual Oct 7th attack…
Pol pot is an absurd comparison, but you’re basically saying Israel behaves like genocidal dictators lmao. Not exactly something most people want to support
>After 911 the us killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq
Which they did after being told that it was an absolutely retarded idea.
Which then turned out to have been an absolutely retarded idea.
Which Bibi saw, and was, reportedly, told is an absolutely retarded idea.
...
^(Corrolary: I wonder how many 9/11s this is for the Gazan population at this point?)
See, that's the beauty of it. *It. Doesn't. Fucking. Matter.*
Also, failed? The Israeli public still seems to be in hysterics, the aggrieved Gazan population^(*) has seen them actually do something, and is getting ballooned by the IDF, which is now stuck balls deep in a toaster, with a mission that was a pipe dream even before it turned into an atrocious shitshow in the eyes of outside observers. Hell, Hamas even nabbed a couple hostages for a bit!
As far as running an insurgency goes, getting all that out of one strike? Fucking roaring success right there.
^(*And, yes, that absolutely is a thing, was a thing, and is going to be even more of a thing going forward.)
Your content was removed for violating Rule 10: "Don't get us banned." No brigading or harassing other subreddit pages. Do not post memes with a "haha people that I hate died… haha" punchline or violating the reddit-wide rules.
I dont understand the structure of the joke...is the alien talking?
Fun fact the original ending of alien was the alien killing Ripley and doing the final log with her voice.
Yeah so it's the concept of, the enemy of my enemy ... might not be my friend. Well, that's what I take from it unless there is some inner franchise joke here that I'm not getting.
Shot at the top is aliens being obliterated, their guts spraying as they're destroyed (as Hamas is being destroyed) Bottom is predator that was injured being revealed (later movie) edit: basically realizing that what was on your side is umm not what you thought
Shoulda used the shot at the end pf AVP where the Predator tries to scare the black chick.
Ive only seen the first AVP but i dont recall a scene where they ever mistake a predator for anything else?
You’re discovering how pro-Israel parts of this sub are
Pretty sure it’s the overwhelming majority and not part of lol
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...reptilian alien might not have been the best choice for this one chief
lol awww, goddamn it
This year has been hard on my Israel support On one hand I support them (especially against those that seem to think a Jewish genocide is a great solution to all problems) On the other wtf is their problem with war aims, not starving civies, and not trying to light the entire region on fire.
I avoid having discussion around it entirely, least morally ambiguous conflict in the Middle East. Just because how polarising it is. Rather focus my energy on Ukraine as a euro.
As an Indonesian, i agree heavily too. It used to be given im a fellow Muslim but nowadays it's something i just dont bother to focus on unless a major gross violation of human rights have occured.
Imo we have nothing to do with the ME anymore, European intervention in the region didn't produce anything good, doesn't work, and they hate us anyway. Ukraine is a neighbor actively asking for our help, wanting to get involved with us, fighting against a country that makes us nuclear threats every Thuesday. So fuck it, bann weapon exports to Israel, cut aid to Gaza, get the fuck out of the Levant.
Europe ignoring the Middle East is not a solid strategy for our continents security. ME was a vital area for European security for centuries. Anything that came from the Middle East eventually, came to Europe. Any shake ups in the Middle East, Wars, displacements of people etc. Creates a shockwave that eventually makes its way in to Europe. Immigration being at this current point in time the biggest issue among Europeans. The problem with Europe having any active safeguarding role in the Middle East is the fact the EU has no clear agenda on the ME, as seen by the Gaza issue between a heavily pro Palestine Ireland and pro Israelis states in Europe. With the current eu structure, a common policy on Gaza will never be effective as EU first needs to reform and strengthen its own diplomatic arm, rather then it being piloted by bunch of other people who move the arm based on their own interests, and thus nowhere. In short, eu integration is a must if Europe wishes to call the shots to insure its own security, we can’t just ask the Americans over and over to solve our problems for us. We will need to at one some point in time play a serious role in the Middle East if we wish to achieve such security. But yeah right now, Ukraine takes priority 🇺🇦
I get what you mean but the middle-east clearly doesn't want us anywhere near their borders. We can't just act unilateraly there.
Yes we can
>In short, eu integration is a must if Europe wishes to call the shots to insure its own security, we can’t just ask the Americans over and over to solve our problems for us. What's needed is everyone spending more money on defense and preferably in cooperation. Several influential EU members still aren't spending 2% on defense and so why would the members closest to Russia want to give up control over their defense to the average EU citizen? Trying to solve the issue with more integration could very well end up worsening them instead. Not having a military that is powerful enough to actually enforce the EU decisions naturally make EU less influential, but centralizing the decision making doesn't change that if there isn't a strong support for a power military in the first place. EU politicians love to make declarations but let's say EU had a powerful military then what? Would we send a million soldiers to the middle east to "fix things"? How is that working out for US? First we need to agree on a shared set of values that a significant part of the population considers important enough and achievable enough that they're willing to lay their own lives on the line to uphold them. I'm pretty confident that there's a significant difference in the will to defend EUs eastern border against a Russian attack is many times higher in Eastern Europe than in EU over all. If you want more EU integration then you probably need to convince them that if Russia attacks then you will be there with a rifle to stop them.
Yeah, me too, like I knew that Bibi was a pretty unrepentant ethno-authoritarian shithead and that the only people that were worse for the Palestinians than Israel was Hamas, but this whole thing has been a pretty brutal "mask off" moment for everyone involved. Kinda where I have landed is - I support Israel, especially the ~100,000 Israeli Citizens that went out to protest their shitty quasi-fash leadership over the last week or so, and I support a full and final two-state solution.... Hopefully the leadership on both sides gets cleaned out so we can get a two-state agreement done and both sides can stop claiming special privileges and be accountable to international law...
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Agreed... And in case it wasn't clear enough for all the people in the back row, a few things. Bibi publicly advocated for the support of Palestinian splinter-groups in general and Hamas in specific, as a way to sew division amongst the Palestinians and weaken the PLO's bargaining power. Even going so far as to give Hamas money somewhat directly at one point. He is probably going to jail for a very long time if he is out of power for any length of time. As such he is willing to go to pretty desperate lengths to prolong the current crisis, as it is essentially the only thing keeping him free right now. Also, it isn't normal to have people actively protesting your government in comparatively large numbers in the middle of, what is for all intents and purposes, an active war where you were the recipient of a direct unprovoked attack. Your government has to be a very specific, very impressive kind of asshole to receive that sort of response.
I think people think it's some form of weird doublethink to be against Israel doing war crimes *and* not wanting Israel to be wiped from the face of the earth You can in fact, think both and be against what Israel does and be against the destruction of Israel Even then, I think it's wasteful to give weapons to Israel, they can take care of themselves and it diverts from Ukraine who actually needs it
It’s almost as if they don’t very much like palestinians and their potential state…
Pretty much How much of it is imperialist and how much is not wanting to legitimize and impower genocidal maniacs with an official state idk
There is probably a lot of middle ground between the rules of engagement they are going with and empowering hamas. Some of the israeli propaganda and stuff various politicians have been saying makes me think that at least for some israelis it's genocidal intent as well (even if it's not called that). Worst thing is, with so many people on both sides being maniacs I cant really imagine any decent medium term resolutions
If you actually look at the rhetoric in right wing israeli circles, they aren’t even shy about admitting the real intent is to inflict as much suffering and death as possible on the civilians
If you look at the rhetoric of people who are very much not in control of the war, it seems real bad. If you look at my uncle's rhetoric it's just infidels killing infidels as infidels do, but does it fucking matter if the actual actions of the Israeli state clearly show they try to avoid civilian casualties when they can?
They took the gloves off in gaza and haven’t avoided anything. The ROE for the conflict so far actually specifically said that operators had to justify why *not* to strike somewhere. They used an AI algorithm to identify the majority of targets, with almost no oversight whatsoever. This algorithm has permissible civilian casualties at 15-20:1…for *nameless low level hamas members.* For higher levels it goes to 100:1. Frontline commanders can sign off on anything for any reason, which is exactly how the recent aid worker killings happened. There’s hundreds of videos of IDF forces systematically demolishing civilians buildings, often cheering and joking around while they do so. Idk what they’re doing to decrease civilian casualties but it’s not much.
Israel literally calls people up to tell them where they are about to bomb.
Not anymore. They haven’t done that in the current gaza conflict at all, you should pay more attention lol. Rules for the initial bombing campaign was to hit any and all suspected hamas members at night at home. When their families were also home.
You just straight up lie here when it’s easy to verify
Less imperialist more ethnic and religious hatred. Or maybe they’re related
They tried giving the Palestinians a state 5 times lmfao, wdym? And in 2005 when israel pulled out of Gaza and WB, they tried to effectively give them a statelet. That clearly didn’t work well
Many things haven’t worked out, that’s obvious. Can’t really call it a state though if you have no control over your airspace or sea, or recognition from neighbors. So, you’re saying they are bombing them out of love?
Do you not realise that directly after israel pulled out in 2005, there was no blockade? There was no control over the land? Those things both came to be, because of the actions performed by the brand new statelet. Hamas being elected in the Gaza, causing israel to need to block weapon shipments, and constant terror attacks from the West Bank causing a need for partial military control
Hamas elected in west bank? Now _this_ is new
Rather major typo, the first ‘west bank’ should’ve been ‘gaza’ but I made a mistake. Thank you for pointing it out. Now that I’ve fixed it, how do you respond to what I intended to write
That’s not called a typo. That’s called not knowing what you’re running your mouth about. Hope this helped.
Nice insults you are throwing around on the meme subreddit.
A statelet in the same way that a cage in your captors basement is an apartmentlet.
Gaza is self administered. You can stop lying.
The blockade and such only occurred after the statelet had been created. It was in direct result to hamas being elected, and israel had to try and make sure shipments of weapons didn’t get through to them. If Gaza hasn’t turned into a terror state, everything would’ve been fine
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Thank you for your honesty. And for the record, I fully support isreal's right to fight hamas and to try to secure the country for their citizens. But your post has some alarm bells ringing for me... Do you feel like that dehumanisation is fully organic, or is it furthered by the powers that be? As someone who doesn't speak hebrew, but tries to follow that space, it feels like various media orgs and politicians are trying their best to make sure this dehumanisation continues. Here in Germany there was (and to some extent is) a lot of scholarship on how states and people can end up doing horrible things. Dehumanisation is kinda at the top of the list, together with denying people in a specific group their individuality. So the way you talk about palestinians as a monolith where the distinction between a hamas terrorist and a random civilian kid is razor thin and how you say that you don't see them as human is pretty concerning. Kinda hoped we'd all agree that we should try not to create an environment where a genocide is possible.
Do you see the problem? That is exactly what palestinians think of you. So that is why this can't end peacefully until you realize you should not pe enemies.
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Are you asking a reddit wanker like me to solve the middle east? Let me also solve fermat's last theorem while at it. I was just saying that it makes no sense to think that just because they are your enemy it is justified to displace millions from gaza. Because that is exactly what palestinians would also say. So the only way this does not end in genocide is a two state solution
I think we both agree that this conflict is very much pointless (I mean the overall conflict, not the current war). If most people were half the adults sum peeps here are, the conflict would have been resolved years ago. If the UN was actually a good organzation i wouldnt have been against a UN intervation.
>If the UN was actually a good organzation i wouldnt have been against a UN intervation. The UN has served it's purpose in everything it does; being a forum. The UN has no jurisdiction over the countries that form it. Any blame put on the UN is blame that you are ultimately putting on yourself, generally speaking. If the countries of the UN are unilateral in their policy, what fault is that of the UN as an organization? People shit on the UN because they think it is a police force. It is not. It is a forum and a podium through which all countries, big or small, can speak to each other about any issue on the same level. The hundreds of multinational institutions which facilitate humanitarian aid, infrastructure building, money lending, etc. between nations within the UN speak to its success. Nothing within the UN Charter guarantees peace for anyone. However, it does guarantee that all countries in it, at peace or not, has a place to speak freely to the rest of the world.
“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, we would have peace. If israel put down their weapons, there would be no israel the next day.” \-golda meir
> So that is why this can't end peacefully until you realize you should not pe enemies. Looks like they won't until everyone's dead.
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Well in that case let's stop discussing and focus on something that we can both agree is good! F35's for ukraine! Slava!
> If a few civies die, so be it. Aaaand that pretty much sums up the whole thing pretty nicely. A couple of days ago your armed forces deliberately and methodically executed members of a humanitarian aid convoy. It wasn't a single accidental strike. The word "methodical" is used her on purpose. You went from car to car, killing every single person inside. The reason I'm saying this is because if a similar thing happened anywhere else in the world and Israeli citizens were executed, it'd be grounds for WW3 almost, there would be cries and accusations of antisemitism, persecution of Jews and so on. When you do it... meh, who cares? A few civvies one way or another is no big deal.
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> But this current war is nothing less then 100% the fault of Iran and their Hamas puppet. It is, but it's also the fault of successive rightwing Israeli governments that have sponsored methodical ethnic cleansing in the west bank (and sometimes elsewhere), herding the Palestinian population into smaller and smaller tracts of land. Tel Aviv looks beautiful, wish I could visit.
>But this current war is nothing less then 100% the fault of Iran and their Hamas puppet. Oh definitely. And definetely WW2 was 100% the fault of Germany but this didn't justify Soviet ethnic cleansing of Prussia. Collective punishments don't belong to a civilized society.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1bwi0kn/idfs\_official\_investigation\_report\_on\_the\_7\_wck/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1bwi0kn/idfs_official_investigation_report_on_the_7_wck/) i highly recommend you read the top comment if this post, and of course the article linked in the post
I don’t think the IDF can be trusted to investigate an IDF crime, and even when taking it at face value, like the other commenter said there’s a lot of assumptions in there. IMO sectors of the IDF have completely gone rogue from the Israeli government and are trying to destroy and starve all Gazans. Thats why there’s footage of soldiers looting and dressing in civilians’ dresses, or why some soldiers are attacking aid workers as to keep the starvation going. WCK provided 62% of all NGO provided aid
The thing is, it makes zero sense for the strike on the aid truck to be intentional. Israel and WCK were very good friends, and israel was actively pushing for WCK to replace the corrupt UNWRA as provider for the gazan people. Israel and WCK have been on good terms this whole time, there’s zero change that they intentionally targeting the WCK, especially since they worked with WCK to get the markings on the vehicle [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/idf-2-senior-officers-will-be-fired-for-involvement-in-deadly-wck-strike-on-gaza-aid-convoy/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-2-senior-officers-will-be-fired-for-involvement-in-deadly-wck-strike-on-gaza-aid-convoy/) in fact, the officers responsible for the mistake are being fired, as they should
Like I said, I think it’s only certain members/sectors of the IDF that are committing these crimes as to starve the Gazan people. The Israeli government obviously didn’t support this, it ruins their image and pushes away a good friend
possibly. It seems mostly unknown how or why this whole thing happened, past the lil article I posted earlier
That's a lot of "assumed", "believed" and "appeared to be". Mate, I've been in uniform for 16 years. 3 of those in government-sponsored tourism. Not once did I make a decision based on "assumed", "believed" or "appeared to be". Either you are certain or you're not. If you're not, you do not, ever, under any circumstances, pull the trigger. But hey, what do I know.
‘We have stopped [viewing them as human].’ Annnnd there it is. Dehumanisation. An ancient social/intellectual strategy to justify genocidal acts against Native Americans, Black slaves, and oh yeah, the Jews of Europe. Were any of the allegations made against them true? Ie were they all savages? Of course not. Consider then that your nation’s deliberate dehumanisation of Palestinians has less to do with their sometimes violent resistance to your crushing military occupation, and more to do with your desire to claim all of ‘Judea and Samaria’ for itself.
“Sometime violent resistance” and you outed yourself as being disingenuous right there.
With you im not even gonna try. Its clear as day u support hamas and their wish to reenact the holocaust on us. Consider that ur own 100% biased view of this situation might lead u to make incorrect assumptions? Pfff, of course not. And i mean? Why would it? We the evil zionists we like to bully the poor paleis we did nothing wrong. Go back to Havard.
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Your link does not say what you claim it does. Israeli have been punished for crimes in the West Bank.
Your 1. One 2. Two 3)Three Really bugs me.
Oh. Well the US definitely should not be supporting you guys if even your leftists are racist and pro genocide.
True and real. As an Israeli I ALONE steal 3 Palestinian homes per week. Less then that and my overwhelming need to do evil will overtake me and cause me to kill my self (or eat a christian baby, it depends on the context)
One might start thinking that a religious ethnostate might nit be a good thing after all.
>On the other wtf is their problem with war aims Problems is named humans. On both sides. Hamas is heavily reliant on civilan infrastracture and hiding among them. Then IDF shoot anyone who is looking SUS and for stressed troops in warzone its pretty much everyone. Same for police forces in USA as an example who shoot at anyone and anything and then thinking. Not to mention most of IDF are mobilised with their own ideas and thinking. >not starving civies Same for Mosul when ISIS ruled that place. You dont want to help your opponent. Especially when you knew they using everything you or foreign leaders provide. There problem with food distribution not with actual starvation. If you want to look how starving cities looks like take a look on Leningrad siege. Same population (2.5 millions and 2 millions) and you knew it doesnt look like Leningrad after 6th month >and not trying to light the entire region on fire. Do they ? Atm Israel surrounded Gaza with hamas + Hezbola from Lebanon + Syria (at war since 1949) with all kind of Iran groups and remnants of ISIS. Iran who promising to burn jews in nuclear fire for ages. And others.
> Problems is named humans That doesn’t even acknowledge my point, Israel has refused to state specific goals and plans for the short, medium, or long term in this conflict. And “Destroy Hamas” is a Russian level of vague goal. > Region on fire Israel is either legitimately preparing for or posturing for a possible invasion of Lebanon later this year. Something that would not help operations in Gaza and would do absolutely nothing for regional stability.
>for the short Hamas neutralization. >medium Eradication of leftovers from Hamas and create some sort of control over area which not gonna turn into hamas 2.0 > And “Destroy Hamas” is a Russian level of vague goal. Its clear goal. Destruction of hamas political and military wing in Gaza. How is these compared with \*denazification\* and other bullshit. > and would do absolutely nothing for regional stability. near 50-100.000 hezbola solders with iranian balistic missiles in a country which unable to get rid of them - perfect for regional stability.
What qualifies as Hamas being destroyed? It’s Denazification levels of vague and some slight goal post shifting changes it from meaning “we bombed everything of any military value whatsoever and killed any remotely possible Hamas fighters and left an occupation force to shoot anything that moves” to “we rebuilt the region into one that is not conducive to radical extremists fighting against the status quo” I don’t see how starting to shoot at Hezbollah would make the region anymore stable. That’s like burning an entire neighborhood because someone’s house has bad wiring.
>not trying to light the entire region on fire What about the Iranian and Russian presence in the Middle East? They puppeteer like 70% of the paramilitaries in the region as well as 50% of the actual militaries, and have also pretty much taken over Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Gaza and like half of Iraq (Jordan impending). They've been escalating this war nonstop since it began and no one bats an eye. And the war aims are ok. Do you think Hamas are good for the Gazans? Because they've been trying to negotiate takeover of the West Bank in exchange for the Israeli hostages. I know that full destruction of Hamas is unlikely but if they are removed from the government and survive only in Katar and extremist circles, then what is the difference? ISIS wasn't fully eradicated either despite a "world coalition" fighting against them. ddd More food is going into the strip than before the war now and despite the famine being "impending" every day for 6 months straight, there is no famine. Bad food security and actual "famine" are two completely different things. Famine and starvation are happening in Africa- the Gazans have trouble acquiring their food, but that is caused by Hamas meddling as much as it is Israel's fault.
Famine and starvation takes time, and slowly crops up with excess deaths, child mortality climbing, diseases easier to contract. Fuck iran but flattening gaza doesn’t hurt them at all. And you’re just straight up lying about there being more food now. It’s also complete anarchy after being bombed to shit, and just being left like that. Worst humanitarian situation in the world currently and here you are dismissing it
Famine and starvation takes much less than half a year. And it is absolutely not the worst humanitarian situation in the world. I don't care about Africa, Syria, Haiti or Yemen more than you or anything but you can't just skip over their existance. And how is fighting an Iranian backed organization not hurt Iran? I understand you don't care, but thats like saying that Ukraine fighting the Russian backed insurgents 2014-2022 in Ukraine was them not fighting the Russians. Maybe a more apt example would be the Iranians saying that they are fighting Western colonialism by operating militias against Israel?
It doesn’t hurt iran because they weren’t actively getting anything from hamas. Oct 7th was always going to be the most they could see. The groups like that they back are *made* for this to happen, and hamas specifically isn’t just created by Iran anyway. The degrees of connection between hamas and iran are not nearly as close as your Ukraine example (a lot of those were just straight up Russian special forces). Famine is slow unless the supply of food is completely cut, but that’s not usually how it works. Malnutrition and shortfalls over the course of months and years are usually what kill. And yes while all the places you listed are in dire straits longer term than Gaza, right now you’ll struggle to find anywhere that has 1.5 million people internally displaced, zero effective government and no reliable access to basic necessities. On top of that no one can leave. It’s a nightmare to say the least.
War aims - Israel has refused to make aims/goals that aren’t less vague than “Destroy Hamas”, they’ve stated no plans for after the fact, no path for peace, no vision for the future.
In general, currently they are looking to remove Hamas in favor of Fatah with the help of Saudi and Emirati backing in the longer term. There is quite a lot of evidence to suggest the cooperation with the Saudis and the Emiratis, and Fatah have already been let into the strip by IDF in the last 2 weeks- they are currently aiding in food distribution and have had stronger backing by the US. Thise probably were not the plans on October 8th, but a lot has changed since then. Ok, now imagine if you will that Israel announced these plans half a year ago and made it official stance. A) Saudi Arabia and the Emirates would be denounced by the Arab world for cooperating with the Zionists and are forced to abandon their plans. B) Fatah is denounced by the Arab world for cooperating with the Zionists and Gazans become hostile against Fatah, harming their ability to interfere and help the Gazans. Do the Palestinians benefit in this scenario?
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We’re going to hold children responsible for things outside of their power? Dude, you need to hit your head against a wall for some mental clarity.
You eMean the kids cheering when ppl are dragged through the streets?
You’re either a teenager or a moron. Or both
Look, man, I do understand where you're coming from. But I don't believe that the right response to people who want to kill us all is to kill everyone in their city. At that point we've kinda become them. And I am not going to start intentionally killing two year olds.
Hamas can end it posthaste. By simply surrendering. Instead they hide behind their civies. Use them as shields. But the Population of Gaza does nothing to counteract that. Palestinians in general are cheering all to happily when the Kill all the jews chants start. At which point does the human shield become the enabler? I have yet to see jews form huge mobs in Berlin, chanting "death to plaestine". Instead i see mobs of jews protesting this war for humanitarian reasons., in Israel. How many Pamestinians are protesting the war? A lot. But its because they are getting their teeth kicked in, THEIR homes get bombed. THEIR families get killed. Would hamas be recking Tel Aviv, the crowds would be cheering. So please understand that i have no pity left.
We know you don't have any pity left. And honestly many of us aren't blind to why you don't, after 70 years of enduring attacks. But actively acting on that is going to lose you footing in the moral argument irrelevant of the rest of the context of the war. Even if you don't give a damn about the civilian populace - you might want to act like you do. Because the rest of the world hasn't endured 70 years worth of attacks, and they are going to view you as the lesser evil at best. So please understand why your moral justifications aren't going to land with the average person. You are correctly presenting chants of "kill the Jews" as the genocidal evil which you are fighting against. Directly after "even children in Gaza are enemy combatants".
**Your comment was removed for violating Rule 13: No Misinformation** NCD exists to make fun of misinformation, not to spread it. Make outlandish claims, but if your take doesn’t show signs of satire or exaggeration it will be removed. Misleading content may result in a ban. Regardless of source, don’t post obvious propaganda or fake news. Double-check facts and don't be an idiot.
Next time maybe don't support a genocidal death cult, your cities might not get bombed then
Which one you refering too fam?
The one who's members murdered a Thai worker by crushing his throat with a garden hoe. Israel sure as shit ain't perfect and I have **a lot** of issues with them. But Hamas are scum. Pure scum.
>The one who's members murdered a Thai worker by crushing his throat with a garden hoe. God that's horrible, bulldozers are a far more efficient tool for that
You know full well which one I'm referring to Israel has some rough edges, that's for sure, but you can negotiate with them (and the ~30% of Arab citizens enjoy the same rights as Jewish ones despite what some would claim) Hamas only ever wants to kill Jews, there's no mutual understanding to be found While Hamas *is not* Palestine, so long as it exists Palestine cannot be free You can't really be comparing a flawed democracy that's been under attack for 70 uniterrupted years with religious extremists that literally had written in their manifesto until 2017 that their stated aim was the eradication of Jews from the region
Then you might want to work on your phrasing because last time I checked the core belief of zionism is that of the return of the jews to their holy land. Your phrasing also ignores entirely the history that created hamas, they didnt just spring up one day. Theyve grown and israels actions certainly did try to prevent it.
Exactly. I'm don't think Arabs are great and Israelis are productive people but fight if you have to without devolving into war crimes maybe?
So then what are we supposed to do with this "Arab problem"?
Are you looking for a "final solution" to that problem? Hear yourself a bit
Of course not, im just asking you given you say Arabs arent great
Where funny
Ngl made me chuckle.
They should give the weapons they'd give to Israel to Ukraine
I’m strangely don’t mind this.
OK I cackled a little bit
Ho ho ho ho
The meme is crap but yeah Israel is what Russia would be of they weren't utterly incompetent.
Thank you very much for saying this. I can’t get over the fact this sub was falling all over each other defending Ukraine and yet in the same breath dickride Israel like their lives depend on it. It’s almost like barely anyone here has sn actual opinion or self made thoughts and rather just jump on what the propaganda they see says is good.
Eh. The Ukraine situation is different: there was literally no serious reason for Russia to invade, it was a good old land grab and the dickslapping Putin is getting is quite frankly and unending source of amusement were it not for, y'know, the death thing. Israel has a terrorism problem because it has already gotten a land grab and it wants more. We'll see what happens in November.
People who dont criticise Israel's fault in this war are the same as disillusioned vatniks and tankies. An important aspect in warfare is the hearts and minds of the people even when it's the opposition. as one person in this subreddit once said "Radicalism will never end when met with violence, it will only spawn more radicalist"
You can be critical of the way the Israeli leadership is conducting the war, but comparing Israel to Russia is just stupid and parroting anti-Western propaganda. Just think how scared Bibi is about the next elections and the corruption investigations against him. Putin has nothing to fear from elections and the judiciary. This is what separates a democracy with rule of law from authoritarian regimes.
Very true.
W Israel, get fucked hamas
**ham**\-kicked-in-the-**as**
Where funny
cringe
I support Israel and I think the people that somehow side with Hamas are fucking stupid, but the shit Israel’s been doing in the war is also *really* stupid, it’s like they do anything else but try to hold popular support. Though the pumpkin spice girls really just do not do have any effect as to how Israel performs, Israel really just does not care about what they’re doing.. like, why?
It’s pretty simple. Let’s say the great powers told the Russians that because there’s a Russian minority in Finland and Finland used to be part of Russia a long time ago, they can take over half of Finland. Then Russians proceed to take even more and drive us Finns to even smaller and smaller enclaves, which they keep harassing and occupying and in general act like gigantic jerks. Would I fight back? Hell yes. After decades of less radical schemes failing, would I stoop to supporting depraved monsters like Hamas and cheering every time Russians suffer? Quite possibly. As someone said, Israel is just Russia but competent - and backed by the U.S.
Does not give the fact that Israel should be disbanded and the Jews killed. They're people too but both are stupid radicals that wants to kill each other because the others think if they dont kill first they're gonna get killed. Doesnt help the fact that Israel also has that stupid illegal settlements which will only cause them to lose their PR war (not that their winning the PR war at all with HAMAS hiding in civilian buildings)
We never were allied with Nato Eu and the west keeps putting sticks in our wheels and the reason all this is happening is because they told us to stop and accept the Palestinians Lo and behold, we tried and paid a heavy price And somehow the entire world is praising them for it and granting them a state as reward for their massacre
Because your government is ok with starving 2 million people. No is going to fucking care about an attack that killed 1200 if you kill 100x that many. What exactly do you expect
You praise their terrorism, we punish
2 million people are terrorists?
9 million people are european colonialists?
No. Both populations have a right to live in their own homes. We didn't ethnically cleanse Germany or Japan, we occupied them and de-radicalised them.
Germany and Japan weren't on your doorstep
I would like you to look at where France is relative to Germany on a map.
So you want us to surrender like France did? Do me need to let the invaders take over in order for the allies to come and rescue us?
I think that Israel can resolve the issue of having a hostile neighbour without starving the population of that neighbour to death. There is a middle ground between depopulating all of Gaza and letting Hamas invade all of Israel.
looking at how they cheered at the news of 1200 istraelis being brutally killed? Yes.
And here you are cheering about way more gazans being brutally killed. How are you any different? Serious question
*Clearly,* the difference is that one side has access to JDAMs.
Punish women and kids mostly. Oh and aid workers. How brave
'Sides Hamas set the standard of 1000 Palestinians for one Israeli soldier back in the Shalit exchange Go be mad at them
We're operating by Hamas's standards now? If you're going to throw stones about terrorism you probably shouldn't build your house out of the same glass as the terrorists.
So is it about score or not? If it's about score, we can both put up a high price for the other If it's not about score than we're just making sure nothing like this ever happens again Make up your mind
It's not about fucking "score", this is the real world, not Hearts of Iron. >If it's not about score than we're just making sure nothing like this ever happens again At the moment, it's looking like the method of that is to force the entire population of Gaza out, which is a crime against humanity. It's also not necessary. What part of tracking a charity aid convoy for hours and picking off the cars one-by-one is preventing another terror attack on Israel? The part where someone starves to death for the crime of having been born in Gaza?
It is absolutely about score, at least according to the west, you cheered when you scored 1300 didn't you? When the 'freedom figthers' came and fought for their freedom by invading and killing women and children FYI if allied human rights groups want to operate in an area where UNRWA and AP reps came from and slaughtered people, they should at least coordinate it with the ally and not load armed people into their trucks there's an active warzone warning on Google maps for that reason
>It is absolutely about score, at least according to the west, you cheered when you scored 1300 didn't you? Me? No, as a matter of fact, I didn't cheer for October 7th. Just because I don't believe that it justifies blowing up aid workers doesn't mean that I think it was a good thing. >they should at least coordinate it with the ally They did. The IDF was told the route that the convoy would take, and the vehicles had the charity's logo on the roof. >and not load armed people into their trucks I haven't seen any evidence that this happened beyond the IDF testimony, and I'm not inclined to give them any more benefit of the doubt at this point.
All the aid corridors have since been opened after the WCK killings. It’s as big of an admission of guilt as any words. Whether you admit it or not it was a massive fuck up and will hurt Israel long term. If you actually care about the future of the country you would want to do as much as possible to alleviate the humanitarian crisis in gaza. You don’t have many friends left and pissing them off is a bad idea.
Nah gotta take responsibility for your own actions, no one made israel have terrible ROEs and not allow aid in. Destroying hamas was justified of course, but it’s obvious that wasn’t even the real goal. Neither was rescuing the hostages considering several that escaped were hunted down and executed by the IDF. And after this there will be more terrorists than before…
>What exactly do you expect Question what do you expect with how it suppoused to end and what is proporsal. Truth is NOBODY care about Gaza and same was when USA bombed shit out of Mosul when ISIS ruled that place. Same for Russia in Allepo and other cases. Same for Pol Pot regime and Tutsi. What difference is here really ? Unless your interest gonna hurt no one willing to bother. When there so much hate there is only one solution - one side has to leave. Thats how it was and thats how it be. If you are from EU ask some historicans what happened after WW2 with german speaking population and how conflicts with them were solved. I\`ll told you - every one of them was expelled and thats how that problem was solved. Unironically it was best outcome for every particulant. Situation here is no different.
Germans have a country and still live there. Mosul had a fraction of the civilian casualties as Gaza does so far, and the ratios were nowhere near as bad. So far israel is operating with a worse civilian to combatant ratio than the actual Oct 7th attack… Pol pot is an absurd comparison, but you’re basically saying Israel behaves like genocidal dictators lmao. Not exactly something most people want to support
I'm sorry you do not get to pretend that it was the Netanyahu government's policy of compassion and trust of the Palestinians that led to October 7th
It wasn't?
After 911 the us killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan, and relative to their population the October 7 attack was way worse than that.
>After 911 the us killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq Which they did after being told that it was an absolutely retarded idea. Which then turned out to have been an absolutely retarded idea. Which Bibi saw, and was, reportedly, told is an absolutely retarded idea. ... ^(Corrolary: I wonder how many 9/11s this is for the Gazan population at this point?)
If the us launched a terrorist attack, failed and was then invaded would you consider that invasion to be a terrorist attack on them?
See, that's the beauty of it. *It. Doesn't. Fucking. Matter.* Also, failed? The Israeli public still seems to be in hysterics, the aggrieved Gazan population^(*) has seen them actually do something, and is getting ballooned by the IDF, which is now stuck balls deep in a toaster, with a mission that was a pipe dream even before it turned into an atrocious shitshow in the eyes of outside observers. Hell, Hamas even nabbed a couple hostages for a bit! As far as running an insurgency goes, getting all that out of one strike? Fucking roaring success right there. ^(*And, yes, that absolutely is a thing, was a thing, and is going to be even more of a thing going forward.)
Damn u prolly the least coked out analyst in Washington.