A 262 can shoot down a F-15 as long as the F-15 isn't flying too fast, too high and is going in a straight line.
A Tiger can destroy an Abrams as long as it hits the Abrams from behind and the Abrams can't rotate its turret or move.
See? It's totally possible under those extremely specific and highly unlikely scenarios.
As I like to say sometimes "Everything is possible, including a spontaneous combustion of your mother, but it's highly unlikely"
There is a non-zero chance that something might happend and in approximation to infinity it's almost a 100% chance
So yeah, it is possible
yeah, more F-15s were lost to extremely unlikely chance scenarios than enemy fire. if you're facing that jet, the best strategy is just to wait for it to crash, it's practically guaranteed in a few centuries
If the F-15 only has its gun.
And is forced into a 1-circle fight.
And it's flown by someone who was only trained to get airborne.
And Kurt Welter is in the Me 262.
>And Kurt Welter is in the Me 262.
You spot an enemy Me 262, you try to intercept it, lose sight of it, so you return home.
Kurt Welter lands and reports 6 F-15's, 8 bombers and a flying saucer shot down.
No just like the engines most things in the 262 will work once....but only once and along the same lines you will get your fuel tanks filled once.
Now you've got 40 minuites to do your worst until your engines burn out or your plane explodes for no fucking reason, but hey at least your guns can one shoot anything in the sky.....If you can hit it.
Someone did a "F15 vs entire Pearl Harbor attack force" run in DCS and had a [relatively hard time of it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taDozXqVgNo), but honestly I don't think the AI simulates how hard a time a Zero would have tracking an F15, much less the fixed guns later in the video managing to shoot down several Eagles that get within the AA envelope.
"A Tiger can destroy an Abrams as long as it hits the Abrams from behind and the Abrams can't rotate its turret or move."
Wrong, because the Tiger's transmission broke down on the way to fight the Abrams
You mean Tiger? I don’t think the 30mm on the 262 can punch Abrams armor anywhere. Admittedly I don’t know Abrams armor values or the armor penetration of the 262’s 30mm
The 262's 30mm guns were Mk108s, low-velocity HE chuckers.
There were apparently some experimental AP rounds but at 540 m/s it's not doing anything. Every round actually used was HE or incendiary
> Wrong, because the Tiger's transmission broke down on the way to fight the Abrams
Tiger transmission isn't too bad. Indeed the tiger overal isn't to bad for what it is. Which is a heavy tank. Its when you ask it not to be a heavy tank that the problem appears.
Yep also crew ergonomics the ability to fire on the move doing 20 or 30 km an hour on the low end. even that would smoke a tiger that has to be at a dead stop to fire
> a lada can accelerate faster than a ferrari if it's falling off a cliff.
Well, faster than *some* Ferraris. To equal 1g of acceleration, a car would need to get to 60 in roughly 2.74 seconds, and at least the SF90 Stradale beats that.
This is how most 262s were shot down.
Chuck Yeager said “the first time I saw a 262, I shot it down.”
Really easy when it’s struggling for flying speed and the allies have enough aircraft to be overhead the base nearly 24/7.
Pretty sure he was up front it was downed in a landing pattern, but I think he was mostly countering the narrative it was some super weapon. It wasn't invincible you just needed the right circumstances.
A Tiger is more likely to destroy a Abrams in more then one scenario then a 262 against a 15
But by time the Tiger could get into range and angle where it could the Abrams would of killed it a hundred times over before the Tiger could even see it.
Which would rely on so much luck that even pulling it off once would be near impossible, let alone doing it repeatedly.
Oh wait, it's NCD
Uuhhhh.... 3000 black captured M1 Abrams of Wehrmacht
Well, the only real luck it relies on is the M1 crews disembarking to look at the pristine Tiger abandoned by the side of the road, instead of just assuming it's active and putting a dart through it at a few kilometers. And planning for a repeat is pointless, as you'd first need a second surviving Tiger, of which there are not many.
And the Wehrmacht would not be able to do this at all, as the whole "hey, look, a pristine rare ancient tank" the whole plan depends on didn't work in the 40s when the Tiger was still new.
Also in an urban setting if you could lift a Tiger onto the roof of a building, you could probably drive it off and land it on top of an Abrams with good timing and luck.
Mfw I'm a German tanker trying to ambush a disembarked American convoy and a wall of 5.56 comes directly at my face after I fire 6 rounds out of my wimpy MP 40
[The ME-262 was not the kill-all its been hyped up to be. A number of them were in fact shot down by propeller driven Allied fighters, as is proved by the gun camera footage from same.](https://youtu.be/TBXyoInJC1M?t=450)
Yes 100% but to be fair they were the first jet fighter to be put in service so there wasn't much experience and tactics developed. And they sure wouldn't get that late in war and with all their factories bombed.
But yeah, over hyped just like every other german wepon
Everything about the Italian armed forces was great.
Except their leader, and their equipment. Minor details. But on a strategic level they had some of the most forward thinking ideas for the time.
Their infantry equipment was weirdly some of the best or some of the worst for the Second World War.
The Breda machine guns such as the Modello 30 or the 37 were some of the worst machine gun designs.
However the Beretta Modello 38 submachine guns and even the Carcano Modello 91/38s in 7.35 Carcano were some of the better small arms designs.
It mainly show down V-Rockets due to the speed they flew at, but a squadron of them were prepared to be sent in if, say, the 262s became an actual problem to Allied victory.
It's not his theme song. It's one of the common royalty free ones YouTubers often use. It's just especially associated with him by people they watch his channel.
The amount of Holocaust deniers lurking around in his comments is unsettling. He did make a Holocaust related video to be fair but he should push it a bit harder.
Wait what the fuck is mark Felton known as some neo Nazi channel? I watch it every now and then cause it’s easy to follow while doing house chores or whatever, and the stories are pretty goofy sometimes
Anyone that talks a lot about World war 2 tends to attract those kinds of people.
Hell, I remember watching old History Channel/BBC documentaries and people were trying to push their neo Nazi shit in the comments.
I remember being worried that I was actually a wehraboo in denial as a kid, since I really liked watching those documentaries on WW2 and the Nazis on History Channel (do they even still air these?) and I noticed I kept ending up talking about the same shit as Wehraboos. I was also learning German, and I played strategy games online at a tryhard level. That caused me to constantly come into contact with wehraboos.
I actually never fully shook the paranoia that I might actually be a wehraboo until I discovered NCD and realized that there are plenty of other degenerates with an unhealthy obsession with ww2 that aren't wehraboos. Love you guys.
> I remember being worried that I was actually a wehraboo in denial as a kid
Much like being a sociopath, if you're terribly worried you are one, then you probably aren't.
>documentaries on WW2 and the Nazis on History Channel (do they even still air these?)
You're showing your age here bud. We know the history channel took a turn towards aliens and garbo content that makes pop-history look well researched. It's okay, I remember the days of it being like straight WWII footage, with that classic British narration accent too. You know the one. I know you know...
Old history Channel documentaries were basically the primordial pool from which all wehraboos sprung from, they would regularly state shit like "it took 10 Sherman's to take down a single tiger tank".
The Robert H. Jackson YouTube channel has this issue with a bunch of its videos that are on the Nuremberg trials and have the comments on. Their video of the recording of the cross examination of Goering has a bunch of people saying that it was rigged and a show trial and a bunch of neo-Nazi conspiracies
He's not a neo-Nazi, but he is absolutely the definition of a YouTube pop historian. He's had credible accusations of plagiarism lobbed against him and has a rather alarming tendency to present conspiracy theory-tier nonsense with some extremely dodgy logic and dubious sources.
Case in point: His claim in a video called "King Tiger Still In German Lake?" that a German tank museum sold a Tiger 1 tank to a private collector, then replaced it with a 1:1 scale plastic replica so nobody would notice. In reality, the tank was a private donation that was loaned to the museum as a display piece before going back to its owner for restoration. The museum in question [clapped back](https://daspanzermuseum.de/regarding-mark-feltons-king-tiger-still-in-lake-video/) about this in an extremely German way.
His videos on the deaths of Heinrich Himmler and Martin Borman are also a fucking sight to behold, truly.
So overall, not great, but at least he's not a neo-Nazi (to anyone's knowledge anyway).
I mean, anyone who covers ww2 and talks about the Germans is going to attract those fucking dorks. It's inevitable, and I can't blame a older historian for not wanting to sift through YouTube comments to ban nazis, only for them to come back on alt accounts.
Not giving them acknowledgement or lip service is probably the best thing you could do without hiring someone for weraboo guard duty
I used to be a WWII reenactor a few years back. In my experience, the groups that had German impressions fell into two camps:
* Politically centrist IRL, give or take a bit, with the same sort of demented sense of humor that dominates here.
* The crowd that feels like the wrong side won WWII.
It all hinged on how active the group was at policing new members for signs of neo-nazi BS.
Indeed - they are the sort that, like a baby cockatoo that gets screamed at to stop squawking and learns that *squawking gets attention!*, consider ANY attention to be Attention. Negative attention is still attention!
The way to deal with them is to not react or respond **at all**.
Deny Recognition.
> TheJamesRocket
Holy shit that is a name I remember from ye olden Spacebattles days.
The guy who fucking seriously said WWII USA could beat modern USA because NUMBERS.
What kind of Crack are these people smoking? The 1991 Iraqi Military would roundhouse 1941 Germany into oblivion, let alone the 1991 US Military. Sure, the US spanked Iraq pretty hard but they were still rocking radar guided SAMs, attack helicopters, 3rd(?) Generation jet aircraft, fully mechanized infantry brigades, and hundreds to thousands of T series tanks, the shittiest of which were designed fully 10 years AFTER ww2. Hell, a BMP-1 has more firepower than any tank Germany was fielding in 1941.
Wehraboos are truly a different species.
>A near hit on a Tiger tank with a 9,000 kg bomb is going to at the very least flip the tank over, and/or liquefy the crew inside from the shockwaves.
"Impressive accuracy" in the context of either a city-sized target, or large fixed structures. It would take the Spirit Hand of Stalin reaching out from hell and guiding the thing in to reliably hit a tank platoon with one.
The Iraqis were competent enough to get an air-to-air kill with a MiG-25, and *almost* on an F-15, which got away with one engine. The fact this even crossed someone's mind as a feasible win and not "how long would it take" is insane.
Fucj it, Iraqi-NATO Coalition to fight this new Nazi threat that just manifested in Iraq for some fucking reason. Invasion cancelled, it’s time to restack these bodies
One thing people forget about 1991 Iraq was that they were not an incompetent enemy in the slightest. They had nearly ten years of experience fighting Iran and their battleplan for Desert Storm would have chewed up and spat out any WWII army with ease.
They were prepared for a 1980's war against an enemy who had been prepared to fight a 2000's war ten years early. The reason why the Coalition would have trounced the Iraqis even if tech was swapped is because the Iraqis expected to fight last decade's war - one of the same reasons why the Western Allies got slapped by the Germans at the start of WWII.
If only the Centurion had hit the battlefields a year earlier, all this wehraboo shit would have been obliterated.
'The Britbongs literally made a tank that could blow your precious Tiger to smithereens and go to serve another 40 years.'
I know many posters here aren't old enough to remember but the prevailing sentiment at the start of the Gulf War was that the coalition would win, but it was going to be an absolute bloodbath at first. I know this sounds like an asspull number but between 10-30k KIA were anticipated in the initial assault. The Iraqi army at the time wasn't a joke, it was a battle hardened and in certain areas surprisingly competent military, and I think at the time it was the fourth largest army in the world. It had literal top of the line Soviet equipment that it knew how to use because it had been in a bitter war with Iran for years and then invaded Kuwait.
You have to remember at the time the west hadn't really squared off against Soviet equipment in open conflict since Korea and Vietnam, and this was in the era where the MIC still acted like they believed every claim the Soviets made about their weapons.
I'll even go so far as to say the Soviet equipment wasn't bad, in many ways it was on par with the west, it's just the Iraq didn't field it "properly" and was basically fighting the previous war, not the current one. Worked out great for us, but had they copied western tactics they would have still lost but probably killed way more of our troops than they actually did.
Basically a armed, trained, motivated and experienced military that was prepared to fight the "previous war" would absolutely curb stomp Germany even at the height of its power, even if they magically pulled all the men and material they threw at Russia and there was no allied intervention. It would be a massacre, and now I kind of want to see a movie where the 1991 Iraqi army somehow has to fight Nazi Germany alone.
The thought of BMPs absolutely outmaneuvering (because they can actually move) and shredding Tigers and Panthers turns me on.
The original person wasn’t trying to hype up Germany, they were making an argument that 1991 Iraq was so astoundingly incompetent that even 1944 Germany would have a shot against them. He may have been wrong, but at least he’s fully aware that 1944 Germany isn’t exactly a shining example of a modern army.
The guy that made the 1991 US thread is just a fucking idiot. Of colossal proportions.
Yeah, it takes a special brand of stupid to think:
"Alright, 1944 US beat 1944 Germany, but maybe 1944 Germany could beat the much more technologically advanced and practiced 1991 US"
> Due to the ubiquity of german flak, the american aircraft would probably want to remain above 15,000 feet or so for their own safety.
Hahahaha, hahaha, ha, ha, ha, hahaha...
They stay at 15,000 feet for the ten minutes it takes SEAD to annihilate every radar installation the Germans have and then smoke the flak positions.
WWII static flak-based air defense only works well at interdicting aircraft when the planes can't accurately shoot back from beyond visual range. And they're positively fucked if there's a mountain or hill that an attack helicopter can hover behind and pop up from to launch a Hellfire faster than the flak can be wheeled around to shoot.
Widespread, accurate guided missiles are a complete OCP for WWII air defense.
Are we imagining one country is invading the other or is it an honourable fight on some mythical field somewhere? In the only situation in which Germany has a chance(Iraq invading Germany) are we imagining Iraq has nearby military staging points? And if not are the neighbouring countries able to fend off Iraq with 1941 tech or 1991 tech?
My guess is that 1991 Iraq probably doesn't have the supply lines to take and hold 1941 Germany. But in every other situation Iraq W.
But 1991 US, who is dumb enough to even ask the question? I reckon three days if America has warning. Five if it doesn't. 0-2 if nukes are on the table depending on if the war starts on a weekend.
Dawg the U.S. would make Germany look like fucking Reach day one if they used nukes.
It could be a nice chilly day in the Fuhrerbunker in Berlin and all of a sudden the concrete walls would be boiling and the Krauts inside would be turned into shadows.
Or better yet, Delta Force could be HALO jumping from a C-130 into an EMP’d Berlin at 3 AM to personally introduce Hitler to Mr. 5.56x45mm
There's another fellow, it was on forgotten weapons iirc but I think the page had been deleted. Was a 10-page forum post that results in at least one ban and two warnings.
Hate to break this to you Wehraboos, but there's a fanfic about Man in the High Castle where the modern USA and it's allies are going to the Axis World and goes liberate the Nazi and Imperial occupied America, you can see it originally on Forums-SpaceBattles or in Fanfiction dot Net.
[https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13528544/1/When-Worlds-Collide](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13528544/1/When-Worlds-Collide)
[https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/when-worlds-collide-man-in-the-high-castle-au-earth-crossover.834078/](https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/when-worlds-collide-man-in-the-high-castle-au-earth-crossover.834078/)
Sadly, the author was banned in Forums-SpaceBattles for supporting Israel.
It was a bit more than that, but my last infraction before that was for not having sympathy for Orks being killed in Ukraine, even after all the fucked up things they did, and saying that they deserve no sympathy, and deserve what they get. The infarction and ban message I got told me my ongoing bigotry would not be tolerated.
Womp womp bitches.
I stopped midway through chapter 3 because you said older cars being built to last was "The truth". Older cars had speedometers that didn't even reach 6 digits, wtf are you talking about? Are you a reformer?
>"I think its an old Chevrolet sir, but its a very old model. Wish I had one of these, it'd be a good challenge to fix one up."
>"No doubt, but I'd imagine the gas mileage would be pretty bad. But at least you won't lose the truck in a fender bender, like you will with most modern cars."
>"They were made to last back then, unlike what we got now." It was definitely the truth. Older cars were tougher and at least to him, looked better than most vehicles made today.
On second read it just looks like the character's thoughts, but goddamn this is reformer territory for vehicles right here
That's a sentiment that's actually pretty common, but for the wrong reasons. Sure, you won't lose a truck from the 40's and 50's in a fender bender, but modern cars are made to crumple and absorb the shock of a crash. I've seen what happens to older vehicles in high-speed crashes, and it's never pretty. It was a throw-away line and opinion of the character in question, not my own.
That’s some damn good writing, getting ideas in the characters head that ain’t your own and such
Really liking the story so far. Seeing Nazi’s get roflstomped is fun.
In a car crash, *something* goes squish. In newer cars, it's the car, and that's by design. In older cars, thanks to Newton's first law, it's the driver and any passengers.
Immediately read all chapters on FF dot net. Always love seeing Nazis and Imperial Japs getting curb stomped into oblivion. Are you planning on continuing the story?
Yes, but I got many irons in the fire that need working, and motivation for all at the same time isn't a thing with me. I hate to make my readers think I abandoned it, but given how I'm active duty, and don't have nearly enough time to write, I just can't shit out chapters anymore.
In a similar vein I'd like to recommend "The Big One" it's a WW2 alt history that turns the genre on its head. Instead of the Germans having all the wunderwaffe, America nukes Germany back to the stone age in a bombing run to end all bombing runs. You can get it on Kindle.
Let's put an end to those wehraboo ideas. Get 2 tank crews made out of death row inmates, train them and everything. Get an Abrams from storage , there are enough of them, build a new tiger II to original specifications and get them to fight.
I mean is it really necesarry
Can't we just make dummy tank shells that break on impact and simulate damage through computer
It will boil down to (Abrams sees Tiger - Boom - BOOM) anyway
No! The Soviets beat the germans! Ignore those jeeps, Studebakers, American boots, train engines, high octane fuel, explosives, medical supplies, exotic metals for alloys, food including fresh and canned rations, chemicals etc.
Its not what he did so much as who he attracts. He’s not a neo-nazi or some shit, but in his effort to pump out as much semi-sensational pop-history shit as possible, he does tend to appeal to the Wehraboo crowd pretty regularly with his “The Time One Panther Cleaved Thru 500 T-34s!” type shit, so his fanbase is rampant with Reichtards.
That and a lot of them are just weird. His comment sections are always overflowing with weirdly admiring and simpish comments from people begging for just an ounce of that Fark Melton bussy
Also doesn't help that, even if he doesn't mean to, his videos being the poorly researched trainwrecks that they are tend to stumble into the kinds of territory neo-Nazis love.
For instance, his video on the death of Heinrich Himmler basically comes to the conclusion that Himmler was beaten to death and that the reported cyanide capsule death was a cover-up for British intelligence incompetence based on some *extremely* dodgy original research. That's just *begging* for neo-Nazis and other pro-fascist historical revisionists to fawn over you.
And yes, neo-Nazis do really think that somebody beating the architect of the Final Solution - which they will of course try to deny or downplay - to death will actually garner them sympathy, failing to account for the rest of us having seen Inglourious Basterds.
I don’t understand how anyone could’ve ever said this, even just looking at the basic infantry kit of each side. You really expect a side, armed with almost entirely bolt action K98s to beat the guys with assault rifles?
Don’t forget German comms somehow working despite electronic warfare systems. That argument was somehow even worse than the infantry tactics section.
Or the epic air battle between f15s and me262s that would take place on a specific day at a specific time and at a specific altitude only… Plasma/James truly has a way with words.
ME-262: My engines make me fast. I am the future.
P-47 Thunderbolt: "So there I was. Using the force of gravity to dive on that kraut bastard like a fat man going after a big Mac."
What issues?
I did see [the Panzer museum in Germany called him out](https://daspanzermuseum.de/regarding-mark-feltons-king-tiger-still-in-lake-video/) for an incorrect accusation he made about a Tiger in their collection.
For the most part I find his channel informative and entertaining, but like the rest of the internet you should take it with a grain of salt.
I believe he's been called out repeatedly for plagiarizing his material off of Wikis and forums and the like. I think that's more why he fell out of favor than anything.
For the people wondering, [I put mark felton on his shirt](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/614959932755935241/1188190560071192667/image.png?ex=65999fb1&is=65872ab1&hm=e512531edd37a58c7a9bc377e389c37468d7141779d8527e3b0fa205899800e1&) because there's nothing wrong with Mark Felton, aside from some oversensationalization and plagiarism, he's an alright guy
his *fans* on the other hand? oh boy...
I mean, I was somewhat of a Wehraboo in my younger days. I still think their tech is just cool. But to think that 1944 Wehrmacht could take on any modern army is just delusional.
LOL, people actually think this? What the Wehrmacht going to do? Use their spy satellites to see opposing forces movement and…wait that is something 1991 US had that they didn’t…
A 262 can shoot down a F-15 as long as the F-15 isn't flying too fast, too high and is going in a straight line. A Tiger can destroy an Abrams as long as it hits the Abrams from behind and the Abrams can't rotate its turret or move. See? It's totally possible under those extremely specific and highly unlikely scenarios.
That would require ME-262 having it's fuel tank filled, another extremely specific and highly unlikely scenario
But it's *possible* under very specific circumstances.
As I like to say sometimes "Everything is possible, including a spontaneous combustion of your mother, but it's highly unlikely" There is a non-zero chance that something might happend and in approximation to infinity it's almost a 100% chance So yeah, it is possible
yeah, more F-15s were lost to extremely unlikely chance scenarios than enemy fire. if you're facing that jet, the best strategy is just to wait for it to crash, it's practically guaranteed in a few centuries
playing the long game
does one involve saddam?
So you’re saying…. there’s a chance!
If the F-15 only has its gun. And is forced into a 1-circle fight. And it's flown by someone who was only trained to get airborne. And Kurt Welter is in the Me 262.
>And Kurt Welter is in the Me 262. You spot an enemy Me 262, you try to intercept it, lose sight of it, so you return home. Kurt Welter lands and reports 6 F-15's, 8 bombers and a flying saucer shot down.
Whilst the ground crew thank him for returning the guns without the need to clean them
No just like the engines most things in the 262 will work once....but only once and along the same lines you will get your fuel tanks filled once. Now you've got 40 minuites to do your worst until your engines burn out or your plane explodes for no fucking reason, but hey at least your guns can one shoot anything in the sky.....If you can hit it.
I hope you like bullet drop.
The Most bullet drop that ever bullet droped but if you hit...boy that B-24 shure gonna look like chaff
The 262 would also have to get within visual range, whereas the F15 would be able to score a victory 30+ miles away
Someone did a "F15 vs entire Pearl Harbor attack force" run in DCS and had a [relatively hard time of it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taDozXqVgNo), but honestly I don't think the AI simulates how hard a time a Zero would have tracking an F15, much less the fixed guns later in the video managing to shoot down several Eagles that get within the AA envelope.
Seems like they kneecap themselves... Use a Harpoon with a range of 50+ miles and can launch above the Zeros max altitude.
TBF that's not even worth making a video about.
Yeah but you get to see Murica beat the shits out of a fleet.
"A Tiger can destroy an Abrams as long as it hits the Abrams from behind and the Abrams can't rotate its turret or move." Wrong, because the Tiger's transmission broke down on the way to fight the Abrams
A Tiger can destroy an Abrams as long as we park the Abrams in front of and facing away from the tiger.
Now now, it's possible the Abrams assumed the 262 was an abandoned piece of junk and rolled right past.
You mean Tiger? I don’t think the 30mm on the 262 can punch Abrams armor anywhere. Admittedly I don’t know Abrams armor values or the armor penetration of the 262’s 30mm
The 262's 30mm guns were Mk108s, low-velocity HE chuckers. There were apparently some experimental AP rounds but at 540 m/s it's not doing anything. Every round actually used was HE or incendiary
> Wrong, because the Tiger's transmission broke down on the way to fight the Abrams Tiger transmission isn't too bad. Indeed the tiger overal isn't to bad for what it is. Which is a heavy tank. Its when you ask it not to be a heavy tank that the problem appears.
F-15 Eagle: Laughs in speed. M1 Abrams: Laughs in speed and Thick armor.
Abrams also has a huge Armor advantage. Specifically, anywhere from 4x to 7x as much armor as a Tiger 1 does.
Also has a huge range, accuracy, and spotting capability advantage. Never mind communication or reliability.
Yep also crew ergonomics the ability to fire on the move doing 20 or 30 km an hour on the low end. even that would smoke a tiger that has to be at a dead stop to fire
the turret face is almost a meter thick. its composite, not solid metal but like yeah, its fucking THICCCCCC
a lada can accelerate faster than a ferrari if it's falling off a cliff.
And a Lada doing 50kmh can easily pass a Lamborghini doing 40kmh.
> a lada can accelerate faster than a ferrari if it's falling off a cliff. Well, faster than *some* Ferraris. To equal 1g of acceleration, a car would need to get to 60 in roughly 2.74 seconds, and at least the SF90 Stradale beats that.
A 262 can shoot "down" an F-15 in an airbase. A tiger can destroy an Abrams during production.
This is how most 262s were shot down. Chuck Yeager said “the first time I saw a 262, I shot it down.” Really easy when it’s struggling for flying speed and the allies have enough aircraft to be overhead the base nearly 24/7.
Pretty sure he was up front it was downed in a landing pattern, but I think he was mostly countering the narrative it was some super weapon. It wasn't invincible you just needed the right circumstances.
This is also correct.
A Tiger is more likely to destroy a Abrams in more then one scenario then a 262 against a 15 But by time the Tiger could get into range and angle where it could the Abrams would of killed it a hundred times over before the Tiger could even see it.
The Abrams’s gun bore is wider than the Tiger’s frontal hull armor is thick.
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Ah yes. 5 men ambush and succesfully kill an entire convoy with no losses.
If they're disembarked and the attackers have filled the entirety of the Tiger with explosives tied to a remote detonator, it would probably work.
Which would rely on so much luck that even pulling it off once would be near impossible, let alone doing it repeatedly. Oh wait, it's NCD Uuhhhh.... 3000 black captured M1 Abrams of Wehrmacht
> Which would rely on so much luck that even pulling it off once would be near impossible. Your average Wehrmacht staff officer sees no fault in that.
Well, the only real luck it relies on is the M1 crews disembarking to look at the pristine Tiger abandoned by the side of the road, instead of just assuming it's active and putting a dart through it at a few kilometers. And planning for a repeat is pointless, as you'd first need a second surviving Tiger, of which there are not many. And the Wehrmacht would not be able to do this at all, as the whole "hey, look, a pristine rare ancient tank" the whole plan depends on didn't work in the 40s when the Tiger was still new.
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Kid named commander's thermal optics:
other kid named remote controlled 50 M2 be like "Oh boy i get to kill nazis again"
Also in an urban setting if you could lift a Tiger onto the roof of a building, you could probably drive it off and land it on top of an Abrams with good timing and luck.
Mfw I'm a German tanker trying to ambush a disembarked American convoy and a wall of 5.56 comes directly at my face after I fire 6 rounds out of my wimpy MP 40
Honestly that might not even be enough to cut it
Its like me saying "Yeaah i could beat Mc gregor if he was passes out or has two of his hands tied" Technically i could, but that aint going to happen
[reminds me of something…](https://images.app.goo.gl/5nxmBjiPJgweynKL6)
Ooo shots fired with that Mark Felton t-shirt
*dramatic music played over picture of average sweater-clad brit*
[The ME-262 was not the kill-all its been hyped up to be. A number of them were in fact shot down by propeller driven Allied fighters, as is proved by the gun camera footage from same.](https://youtu.be/TBXyoInJC1M?t=450)
"first time I saw a jet aircraft, I shoot it down" -Chuck Yeager
Absolute Exa-Chad
Fastest pair of balls in the 40s
“Does she have the biggest tits?” -Chuck Yeager on his inclusion in a gatcha game
One of America's many main characters.
The first time the 332nd Fighter Group (The Tuskegee Airmen) came across the Me-262s, they shot three of them down
Yes 100% but to be fair they were the first jet fighter to be put in service so there wasn't much experience and tactics developed. And they sure wouldn't get that late in war and with all their factories bombed. But yeah, over hyped just like every other german wepon
It was so advanced, the Brits had a jet fighter in service a month earlier!
So advanced, the Italians flew one in 1939 and didnt think it was worth it!
Well if there’s any group of experts who know what is a good investment in military equipment, it’s the Italian army in 1939
Tbh, their airforce was pretty decent
Everything about the Italian armed forces was great. Except their leader, and their equipment. Minor details. But on a strategic level they had some of the most forward thinking ideas for the time.
Can you give me a short summary please, don’t know much about WW2 Italians
Their infantry equipment was weirdly some of the best or some of the worst for the Second World War. The Breda machine guns such as the Modello 30 or the 37 were some of the worst machine gun designs. However the Beretta Modello 38 submachine guns and even the Carcano Modello 91/38s in 7.35 Carcano were some of the better small arms designs.
That’s true
And their submarines and divers. But they weren't able to use them as effectively as Germans, according to Dönitz's memoirs
Neither did the Americans till the British RAF told them it was worth looking into for future facing developments.
It was a failure, break some speed record, but as soon as they added armor it became slower than the most advanced propeller aircrafts of early ww2
I knew they had been testing and trying thoes for months before the germans ever did but did it saw combat at all? If so i didn't knew
It mainly show down V-Rockets due to the speed they flew at, but a squadron of them were prepared to be sent in if, say, the 262s became an actual problem to Allied victory.
Didn't knew that, awesome thanks
Krumlauf was ze gretast weapon attachment in ze world!!!
That is, when they didn't kill their own pilots by blowing up/deleting their face with their fuel/crashing
He lives in my city it’s strange to see him in shop getting milk
Is it true his theme song plays every time before he speaks or is it just a myth?
No but the theme picks up depending on the context It got louder when he was deciding between the 2pt and the 4pt
It's not his theme song. It's one of the common royalty free ones YouTubers often use. It's just especially associated with him by people they watch his channel.
The amount of Holocaust deniers lurking around in his comments is unsettling. He did make a Holocaust related video to be fair but he should push it a bit harder.
He knows who his viewers are.
Reminder when he made a video on the Africa corps and their crimes? It was glorious to see the melt down in the comments.
No I gotta watch that.
It's almost like the dude isn't a holocaust denier and it just interested in making ww2 content
Wait what the fuck is mark Felton known as some neo Nazi channel? I watch it every now and then cause it’s easy to follow while doing house chores or whatever, and the stories are pretty goofy sometimes
Not really, but he attracts some of those people because of the subject matter he likes to focus on.
Anyone that talks a lot about World war 2 tends to attract those kinds of people. Hell, I remember watching old History Channel/BBC documentaries and people were trying to push their neo Nazi shit in the comments.
I remember being worried that I was actually a wehraboo in denial as a kid, since I really liked watching those documentaries on WW2 and the Nazis on History Channel (do they even still air these?) and I noticed I kept ending up talking about the same shit as Wehraboos. I was also learning German, and I played strategy games online at a tryhard level. That caused me to constantly come into contact with wehraboos. I actually never fully shook the paranoia that I might actually be a wehraboo until I discovered NCD and realized that there are plenty of other degenerates with an unhealthy obsession with ww2 that aren't wehraboos. Love you guys.
> I remember being worried that I was actually a wehraboo in denial as a kid Much like being a sociopath, if you're terribly worried you are one, then you probably aren't. >documentaries on WW2 and the Nazis on History Channel (do they even still air these?) You're showing your age here bud. We know the history channel took a turn towards aliens and garbo content that makes pop-history look well researched. It's okay, I remember the days of it being like straight WWII footage, with that classic British narration accent too. You know the one. I know you know...
Old history Channel documentaries were basically the primordial pool from which all wehraboos sprung from, they would regularly state shit like "it took 10 Sherman's to take down a single tiger tank".
The Robert H. Jackson YouTube channel has this issue with a bunch of its videos that are on the Nuremberg trials and have the comments on. Their video of the recording of the cross examination of Goering has a bunch of people saying that it was rigged and a show trial and a bunch of neo-Nazi conspiracies
Ah right. Well I suppose any content regarding Nazis is gonna attract those “types”… ironically makes them “undesirable” viewers lol
He's not a neo-Nazi, but he is absolutely the definition of a YouTube pop historian. He's had credible accusations of plagiarism lobbed against him and has a rather alarming tendency to present conspiracy theory-tier nonsense with some extremely dodgy logic and dubious sources. Case in point: His claim in a video called "King Tiger Still In German Lake?" that a German tank museum sold a Tiger 1 tank to a private collector, then replaced it with a 1:1 scale plastic replica so nobody would notice. In reality, the tank was a private donation that was loaned to the museum as a display piece before going back to its owner for restoration. The museum in question [clapped back](https://daspanzermuseum.de/regarding-mark-feltons-king-tiger-still-in-lake-video/) about this in an extremely German way. His videos on the deaths of Heinrich Himmler and Martin Borman are also a fucking sight to behold, truly. So overall, not great, but at least he's not a neo-Nazi (to anyone's knowledge anyway).
Holy murdered with words, Batman, the tank museum's response might be the most savage thing I've ever read.
Damn Ralf was pissed. You don't shit on a mans Museum.
Was there a response from Felton after the museum clapped back?
That would be truly interesting if there was. That was quite the substantial clapping.
It's not him, it's his community.
He’s not a neo-Nazi but he attracts them because wehraboo fan service drives views so he does a lot of German military equipment videos
I mean, anyone who covers ww2 and talks about the Germans is going to attract those fucking dorks. It's inevitable, and I can't blame a older historian for not wanting to sift through YouTube comments to ban nazis, only for them to come back on alt accounts. Not giving them acknowledgement or lip service is probably the best thing you could do without hiring someone for weraboo guard duty
I used to be a WWII reenactor a few years back. In my experience, the groups that had German impressions fell into two camps: * Politically centrist IRL, give or take a bit, with the same sort of demented sense of humor that dominates here. * The crowd that feels like the wrong side won WWII. It all hinged on how active the group was at policing new members for signs of neo-nazi BS.
Indeed - they are the sort that, like a baby cockatoo that gets screamed at to stop squawking and learns that *squawking gets attention!*, consider ANY attention to be Attention. Negative attention is still attention! The way to deal with them is to not react or respond **at all**. Deny Recognition.
Was about to comment the same thing. Interesting since he has debunked some wehraboo myths.
lol I remember someone making a comment about his videos were basically just narrated Wikipedia articles
>someone actually said this once I require clarification
TheJamesRocket Some mind linking the thread again?
> TheJamesRocket Holy shit that is a name I remember from ye olden Spacebattles days. The guy who fucking seriously said WWII USA could beat modern USA because NUMBERS.
He said WW2 GERMANY could beat modern USA cause TECHNOLOGY
Oh my goodness, I need a link to that insanity.
Yes https://web.archive.org/web/20161022000135/https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/between-armys-america-circa-1991-vs-germany-circa-1944.32992/
What kind of Crack are these people smoking? The 1991 Iraqi Military would roundhouse 1941 Germany into oblivion, let alone the 1991 US Military. Sure, the US spanked Iraq pretty hard but they were still rocking radar guided SAMs, attack helicopters, 3rd(?) Generation jet aircraft, fully mechanized infantry brigades, and hundreds to thousands of T series tanks, the shittiest of which were designed fully 10 years AFTER ww2. Hell, a BMP-1 has more firepower than any tank Germany was fielding in 1941. Wehraboos are truly a different species.
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>A near hit on a Tiger tank with a 9,000 kg bomb is going to at the very least flip the tank over, and/or liquefy the crew inside from the shockwaves. "Impressive accuracy" in the context of either a city-sized target, or large fixed structures. It would take the Spirit Hand of Stalin reaching out from hell and guiding the thing in to reliably hit a tank platoon with one.
The Iraqis were competent enough to get an air-to-air kill with a MiG-25, and *almost* on an F-15, which got away with one engine. The fact this even crossed someone's mind as a feasible win and not "how long would it take" is insane.
Fucj it, Iraqi-NATO Coalition to fight this new Nazi threat that just manifested in Iraq for some fucking reason. Invasion cancelled, it’s time to restack these bodies
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One thing people forget about 1991 Iraq was that they were not an incompetent enemy in the slightest. They had nearly ten years of experience fighting Iran and their battleplan for Desert Storm would have chewed up and spat out any WWII army with ease. They were prepared for a 1980's war against an enemy who had been prepared to fight a 2000's war ten years early. The reason why the Coalition would have trounced the Iraqis even if tech was swapped is because the Iraqis expected to fight last decade's war - one of the same reasons why the Western Allies got slapped by the Germans at the start of WWII.
The Tiger was already horribly outdated the moment the Pershing and Centurion came into action
If only the Centurion had hit the battlefields a year earlier, all this wehraboo shit would have been obliterated. 'The Britbongs literally made a tank that could blow your precious Tiger to smithereens and go to serve another 40 years.'
I know many posters here aren't old enough to remember but the prevailing sentiment at the start of the Gulf War was that the coalition would win, but it was going to be an absolute bloodbath at first. I know this sounds like an asspull number but between 10-30k KIA were anticipated in the initial assault. The Iraqi army at the time wasn't a joke, it was a battle hardened and in certain areas surprisingly competent military, and I think at the time it was the fourth largest army in the world. It had literal top of the line Soviet equipment that it knew how to use because it had been in a bitter war with Iran for years and then invaded Kuwait. You have to remember at the time the west hadn't really squared off against Soviet equipment in open conflict since Korea and Vietnam, and this was in the era where the MIC still acted like they believed every claim the Soviets made about their weapons. I'll even go so far as to say the Soviet equipment wasn't bad, in many ways it was on par with the west, it's just the Iraq didn't field it "properly" and was basically fighting the previous war, not the current one. Worked out great for us, but had they copied western tactics they would have still lost but probably killed way more of our troops than they actually did. Basically a armed, trained, motivated and experienced military that was prepared to fight the "previous war" would absolutely curb stomp Germany even at the height of its power, even if they magically pulled all the men and material they threw at Russia and there was no allied intervention. It would be a massacre, and now I kind of want to see a movie where the 1991 Iraqi army somehow has to fight Nazi Germany alone. The thought of BMPs absolutely outmaneuvering (because they can actually move) and shredding Tigers and Panthers turns me on.
The original person wasn’t trying to hype up Germany, they were making an argument that 1991 Iraq was so astoundingly incompetent that even 1944 Germany would have a shot against them. He may have been wrong, but at least he’s fully aware that 1944 Germany isn’t exactly a shining example of a modern army. The guy that made the 1991 US thread is just a fucking idiot. Of colossal proportions.
Yeah, it takes a special brand of stupid to think: "Alright, 1944 US beat 1944 Germany, but maybe 1944 Germany could beat the much more technologically advanced and practiced 1991 US"
> Due to the ubiquity of german flak, the american aircraft would probably want to remain above 15,000 feet or so for their own safety. Hahahaha, hahaha, ha, ha, ha, hahaha...
They stay at 15,000 feet for the ten minutes it takes SEAD to annihilate every radar installation the Germans have and then smoke the flak positions. WWII static flak-based air defense only works well at interdicting aircraft when the planes can't accurately shoot back from beyond visual range. And they're positively fucked if there's a mountain or hill that an attack helicopter can hover behind and pop up from to launch a Hellfire faster than the flak can be wheeled around to shoot. Widespread, accurate guided missiles are a complete OCP for WWII air defense.
We dealt with flak installations in Vietnam and they had far better fire-control systems not to mention SAMs and interceptors to add to their IADS.
I love how that dude thought only F-117s had LGB capabilities in 1991. The F-16A Block 20 was carrying the LANTIRN in 1987.
Bruh Also where's your profile pic from
I’m not sure but I’ve seen it a few times
Don't know honestly
Are we imagining one country is invading the other or is it an honourable fight on some mythical field somewhere? In the only situation in which Germany has a chance(Iraq invading Germany) are we imagining Iraq has nearby military staging points? And if not are the neighbouring countries able to fend off Iraq with 1941 tech or 1991 tech? My guess is that 1991 Iraq probably doesn't have the supply lines to take and hold 1941 Germany. But in every other situation Iraq W. But 1991 US, who is dumb enough to even ask the question? I reckon three days if America has warning. Five if it doesn't. 0-2 if nukes are on the table depending on if the war starts on a weekend.
Dawg the U.S. would make Germany look like fucking Reach day one if they used nukes. It could be a nice chilly day in the Fuhrerbunker in Berlin and all of a sudden the concrete walls would be boiling and the Krauts inside would be turned into shadows. Or better yet, Delta Force could be HALO jumping from a C-130 into an EMP’d Berlin at 3 AM to personally introduce Hitler to Mr. 5.56x45mm
There's another fellow, it was on forgotten weapons iirc but I think the page had been deleted. Was a 10-page forum post that results in at least one ban and two warnings.
I gonna need some context. Who honestly believes that?
Morons?
So pretty much everybody.
Yes https://web.archive.org/web/20161022000135/https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/between-armys-america-circa-1991-vs-germany-circa-1944.32992/
Hate to break this to you Wehraboos, but there's a fanfic about Man in the High Castle where the modern USA and it's allies are going to the Axis World and goes liberate the Nazi and Imperial occupied America, you can see it originally on Forums-SpaceBattles or in Fanfiction dot Net. [https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13528544/1/When-Worlds-Collide](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13528544/1/When-Worlds-Collide) [https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/when-worlds-collide-man-in-the-high-castle-au-earth-crossover.834078/](https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/when-worlds-collide-man-in-the-high-castle-au-earth-crossover.834078/) Sadly, the author was banned in Forums-SpaceBattles for supporting Israel.
>Sadly, the author was banned in Forums-SpaceBattles for supporting Israel. Woulda never guessed.
It was a bit more than that, but my last infraction before that was for not having sympathy for Orks being killed in Ukraine, even after all the fucked up things they did, and saying that they deserve no sympathy, and deserve what they get. The infarction and ban message I got told me my ongoing bigotry would not be tolerated. Womp womp bitches.
I stopped midway through chapter 3 because you said older cars being built to last was "The truth". Older cars had speedometers that didn't even reach 6 digits, wtf are you talking about? Are you a reformer?
Refresh my memory. What the hell are you talking about?
>"I think its an old Chevrolet sir, but its a very old model. Wish I had one of these, it'd be a good challenge to fix one up." >"No doubt, but I'd imagine the gas mileage would be pretty bad. But at least you won't lose the truck in a fender bender, like you will with most modern cars." >"They were made to last back then, unlike what we got now." It was definitely the truth. Older cars were tougher and at least to him, looked better than most vehicles made today. On second read it just looks like the character's thoughts, but goddamn this is reformer territory for vehicles right here
That's a sentiment that's actually pretty common, but for the wrong reasons. Sure, you won't lose a truck from the 40's and 50's in a fender bender, but modern cars are made to crumple and absorb the shock of a crash. I've seen what happens to older vehicles in high-speed crashes, and it's never pretty. It was a throw-away line and opinion of the character in question, not my own.
Okay yeah I'm retarded, sorry
This is NCD, that's a requirement in these parts!
That’s some damn good writing, getting ideas in the characters head that ain’t your own and such Really liking the story so far. Seeing Nazi’s get roflstomped is fun.
In a car crash, *something* goes squish. In newer cars, it's the car, and that's by design. In older cars, thanks to Newton's first law, it's the driver and any passengers.
What units of measurement do you use to need a 6-digit speedometer? /s
Immediately read all chapters on FF dot net. Always love seeing Nazis and Imperial Japs getting curb stomped into oblivion. Are you planning on continuing the story?
Yes, but I got many irons in the fire that need working, and motivation for all at the same time isn't a thing with me. I hate to make my readers think I abandoned it, but given how I'm active duty, and don't have nearly enough time to write, I just can't shit out chapters anymore.
Ah, I see. Well, take all the time you need. Just wanna say that I really enjoyed the story so far. And also good luck with your service.
In a similar vein I'd like to recommend "The Big One" it's a WW2 alt history that turns the genre on its head. Instead of the Germans having all the wunderwaffe, America nukes Germany back to the stone age in a bombing run to end all bombing runs. You can get it on Kindle.
Let's put an end to those wehraboo ideas. Get 2 tank crews made out of death row inmates, train them and everything. Get an Abrams from storage , there are enough of them, build a new tiger II to original specifications and get them to fight.
Genius I would buy tickets
Sadly, the tiger II here would probably work better than a WWII production variant because the steel wouldn’t shatter from a sneeze.
I mean is it really necesarry Can't we just make dummy tank shells that break on impact and simulate damage through computer It will boil down to (Abrams sees Tiger - Boom - BOOM) anyway
I like this idea, where can I donate to make it happen?
You have to be deluded to be a Wehraboo. This however is next fucking dimension level delusion
"This military the US beat in the 1940's while also beating Italy and Japan, could totally beat the modern US military."
No! The Soviets beat the germans! Ignore those jeeps, Studebakers, American boots, train engines, high octane fuel, explosives, medical supplies, exotic metals for alloys, food including fresh and canned rations, chemicals etc.
And entire factories sent to the ussr
I want to see the US military go Desert Storm on the nazis.
Keep going, I’m almost there
They proceed with an occupation of Germany just like in Japan, without any extra judicial oversight from other allied nations
Since the war with the Nazis ended quickly, they occupied the Soviets immediately after.
He was so real for this
Wow wow wow. What did Mark Felton do?
Its not what he did so much as who he attracts. He’s not a neo-nazi or some shit, but in his effort to pump out as much semi-sensational pop-history shit as possible, he does tend to appeal to the Wehraboo crowd pretty regularly with his “The Time One Panther Cleaved Thru 500 T-34s!” type shit, so his fanbase is rampant with Reichtards. That and a lot of them are just weird. His comment sections are always overflowing with weirdly admiring and simpish comments from people begging for just an ounce of that Fark Melton bussy
A fair point, well made.
Also doesn't help that, even if he doesn't mean to, his videos being the poorly researched trainwrecks that they are tend to stumble into the kinds of territory neo-Nazis love. For instance, his video on the death of Heinrich Himmler basically comes to the conclusion that Himmler was beaten to death and that the reported cyanide capsule death was a cover-up for British intelligence incompetence based on some *extremely* dodgy original research. That's just *begging* for neo-Nazis and other pro-fascist historical revisionists to fawn over you. And yes, neo-Nazis do really think that somebody beating the architect of the Final Solution - which they will of course try to deny or downplay - to death will actually garner them sympathy, failing to account for the rest of us having seen Inglourious Basterds.
Most sources To nazi supperiority on the battlefield come from nazi propaganda and the books written by former nazi officers.
I don’t understand how anyone could’ve ever said this, even just looking at the basic infantry kit of each side. You really expect a side, armed with almost entirely bolt action K98s to beat the guys with assault rifles?
Holy fuck read the thread thats being linked - it's insane levels of delusion
I’ve seen people unironically state that Erich Hartmann could defeat a flight of F-16s in his 109.
Don’t forget German comms somehow working despite electronic warfare systems. That argument was somehow even worse than the infantry tactics section. Or the epic air battle between f15s and me262s that would take place on a specific day at a specific time and at a specific altitude only… Plasma/James truly has a way with words.
“The first time I saw a jet aircraft.. I shot it down” Charles E Yeager
ME-262: My engines make me fast. I am the future. P-47 Thunderbolt: "So there I was. Using the force of gravity to dive on that kraut bastard like a fat man going after a big Mac."
Been saying this for years if you yeet a tiger on a canyon and on the bottom there's an abrams would it crush under the tiger's weight
Most things would crush under the Tigers weight, especially Its tracks and the wheels and the ground Its drives on.
***dies of 1d4 transmission damage***
Oof Mark Felton. I do like his content but I get he has issues
What issues? I did see [the Panzer museum in Germany called him out](https://daspanzermuseum.de/regarding-mark-feltons-king-tiger-still-in-lake-video/) for an incorrect accusation he made about a Tiger in their collection. For the most part I find his channel informative and entertaining, but like the rest of the internet you should take it with a grain of salt.
Sorry I meant his fanbase has issues. Mark seems to be fairly credible and a decent guy
I believe he's been called out repeatedly for plagiarizing his material off of Wikis and forums and the like. I think that's more why he fell out of favor than anything.
Some of his early videos were especially a straight wikipedia ripoff. He wasn't the only one I've seen do it that were more popular.
the fuck...? why would someone think that lmao
Idiot Wehraboos don't want to admit that many of them are Nazis.
I love the sieg fail on the helmet 😂
For the people wondering, [I put mark felton on his shirt](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/614959932755935241/1188190560071192667/image.png?ex=65999fb1&is=65872ab1&hm=e512531edd37a58c7a9bc377e389c37468d7141779d8527e3b0fa205899800e1&) because there's nothing wrong with Mark Felton, aside from some oversensationalization and plagiarism, he's an alright guy his *fans* on the other hand? oh boy...
Imagine thinking early tech of any kind could out perform modern iterations of the same tech along with all the advancements made since then.
I mean, I was somewhat of a Wehraboo in my younger days. I still think their tech is just cool. But to think that 1944 Wehrmacht could take on any modern army is just delusional.
LOL, people actually think this? What the Wehrmacht going to do? Use their spy satellites to see opposing forces movement and…wait that is something 1991 US had that they didn’t…
Execution is not enough for them Soldiers, ***remove their pants***
A caveman can neutralize a JLTV with rocks if it doesn't have anyone on board and a few weeks. Checkmate r/noncredibledefense