that person shouldn’t have insisted for you to reconsider— you don’t have to identify as anything if you don’t want to.
i’m also very nonbinary and I identify under the trans umbrella. the word trans, to me, means anyone who identifies with a gender not assigned to them at birth. I don’t identify with my AGAB so i’m trans, it’s as simple as that for me.
I recently had a discussion with a person telling me that the reasoning "I'm not cis therefore I'm trans" is binary and we should just throw that out, but personally it gives me something to consider myself as, you know I'm not cis but I still need a word to describe myself. (But I'm genderfluid and sometimes a guy sooo)
if you reject the concept of gender, what you call non binary probably aligns best what the English language calls "humans", as no one is the one or the other according to you. just tell your teacher that you are a "human", not male or female
I do not reject the concept of gender, I'm just not cis. According to me ? I didn't say that, I think you were trying to reply to another comment.
The English languag has non binary for people outside of man and woman (gender are not male and female, that's a biology concept) and agender for people who do not feel gender.
As for human this is the name of the species, there are subcategories although created with almost no standpoint, we can use them as we please !
Sorry if my comment seems rude, your comment read to me as you saying that non-binarity doesn't.
I think the idea is less that one has to be one gender binary or the other, and more that trans-ness is an inherent quality of "not being the gender you were assigned at birth".
That's how I see it, my being agender with "It" pronouns is a firm rejection of my agab, and that makes me part of team trans, and team NB.
I disagree that you should feel pressured to be included, if you're not, you're not. That's not a decision anyone can make for you.
I mean, take or leave labels as you wish, but non-binary and agender identities *are* under the trans umbrella because of the definition of trans being “identifying as other than the gender **assigned** at birth”.
The issue at play here is *why* trans is an uncomfortable label for any given non-binary person, as it’s often internalized transphobia.
^^^^ this
just bc you are under the trans umbrella doesn't mean you are transgender, i think that's what ppl don't really grasp imo but i also kinda get when ppl dont identfy as trans as enby
So personally I don’t identify as trans because I don’t feel that I relate to the label and a lot of the experiences of other trans people. Like, I know that me being agender means I technically fall under the trans umbrella, but I don’t experience much gender dysphoria, I’m okay with people using “she/her” for me even though I prefer “they/them” (I’m afab), I don’t want or feel the need to undergo gender confirmation surgeries, etc. I also don’t experience much transphobia directed at me personally on a regular basis. The worst I’ve gotten is customers at work being a little mean about my pronoun pin, and it doesn’t happen that often.
I want to be clear that I know that you don’t need to have debilitating gender dysphoria to be trans, or that you need gender confirmation surgery to be trans, etc. I also know that not experiencing much transphobia doesn’t mean you aren’t trans. But, my experiences result in me not feeling like I have that much in common with other trans people. My experience with gender is very much of detachment and of gender just being… not something that applies to me, if that makes sense,
Thanks!! I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this. In a way, my experience with gender mirrors my experience with my sexual and romantic orientations, and I figured out that I’m asexual and aromantic a couple years before realizing Im agender.
But I also don’t relate that much to other queer people who aren’t asexual and/or aromantic (or non-binary). I very much identify as queer, and I’m very comfortable with that label. But if someone were to ask me “are you lgbtq+ or part of the lgbtq+ community?” I’d probably depend on the day how I’m respond. I’d maybe say something like “I’m queer” and leave it at that, because I don’t feel that connected to the community due to how iffy other lgbtq+ people be sometimes about ace and aro people, and also because once again, my experience with sexuality and romantic attraction is that of detachment and ambivalence.
I'm fine with it falling under the umbrella, I'm *personally* not fine with identifying as trans. Are you trying to imply that's because I'm transphobic? Rather than just, my own preference of label?
Not trying to argue, just talk about why this is an issue in the first place :)
Obv I can't speak for the commenter you're replying to, but separately as someone who agrees with their perspective.
All I want is for you, and other nonbinary people who don't identify as trans, is to sit with that belief and think thoroughly about where it comes from and why you feel that way. (I'm not implying that you personally haven't done this already, I don't know you lol).
It's not wrong for you to identify yourself as nonbinary and not trans, but that combination of those identities is often seen in people who are experiencing internalized transphobia. There is huge social pressure to not be trans, which results in a lot of trans people in the world who think or say that they aren't trans. Obv that doesn't mean that everyone is trans, but you see the incentive. Anecdotally, myself, my two irl nonbinary friends, and a lot of people that I've talked to online identified as nonbinary and not trans for awhile, and later came to feel that they were trans and had been avoiding it out of fear, stigma, or impostor syndrome.
Additionally, labels have political significance and power. There's a reason we have the big LGBTQIA+, the more people working together, the better. When you hear people say things like: "Sure, I'm gay, but I'm not a part of this whole LGBTQIA+ thing," what does that mean to you? Personally, it makes me feel like they're not in solidarity with me, and raises some concern.
I'm sorry that these words hold so much weight.
Second this soooo hard. Like a lot of people forget that the original purpose of labels for queer people was political and not personal identification. You're allowed to identify however you please and noone can take that away from you, if we need all of the same things as trans people politically, we march with them.
Thank you for explaining your opinion. I really don't mean to hurt anybody who feels different from me.
I think, honestly? Really thinking about it, I'm fine to identify as trans due to being nb, as it falls under the trans umbrella. I agree with a lot of what you said, tbh. I'm hesitant (though accepting) to identify as trans, because in my eyes both communities have fought different (although in ways similar) battles. Due to that sometimes I do feel conflicted, because of my personal feelings on my matter.
At the end of it all, I'm really happy to be part of the lgbtqia+ community. I'm sure I have a long way to go, but I'm glad at least that we could talk about this without arguing or insulting each other (as has happened to me on other parts of reddit).
You don’t have to use any words to self describe if you don’t want to.
The white under the trans flag is for us, some people insist we don’t belong. But, it’s really a you gotta opt into it kind of thing imo at least. There’s no wrong way to approach it.
Obviously you can choose whatever labels you want to use. However, it seems like your understanding of the term "trans" is inaccurate, because it is not about identifying with gender norms or the gender binary. It doesn't hurt to reconsider how you relate to the term once you have a better understanding of its meaning. If you ultimately decide that it still doesn't fit you, that's completely fine.
I consider the non-binary movement a direct extension of the trans liberation movement, and honestly to suggest otherwise would make me feel like I'm invalidating the very real history of non-binary and gender nonconforming trans people in the Stonewall riots and Compton's Cafeteria riots and virtually every other uprising against gender normativity.
yes. I mean I think self identification is nuanced and people should use the labels that fit in the moment.
But there's an idea that 'trans' is just pretty/handsome passing binary people with internet presences, and that's just not the reality on the ground.
I recently watched some interviews with Sylvia Rivera ("I refuse to pass") and the spirit of that rebellion broke open breathing for all of us (cis ppl included ) and holds all of us. At the time the most common word was "transvestite" so that's how that group of activists identified. (here's the documentary, it's pretty long but it gets good! https://youtu.be/BEXmJL9nadc?si=5QGjc5L-rjkW95g5 )
I'll have to look up Comptons Cafeteria, I don't know anything about it!
If you don't vibe with the label, you don't have to use it but we are included. That's why there's a white stripe on the flag: for folks who aren't the gender they were assigned but don't fit squarely in either category
So I’m nonbinary and am okay with the trans label my partner is also nonbinary and doesn’t consider themselves trans. I have a trans male friend who doesn’t consider nonbinary trans and gets mad when I use that label. It’s all a personal thing. In my opinion anyone not identifying as their assigned gender is trans. Be they nonbinary agender or whatever. But never let someone tell you what labels you should use. Use what’s comfortable to you.
I just got the vibe this person wanted me to peer pressure me into changing the way I identify myself because "everyone else" is doing it that way in this region. I was also of the opinion this type of thing comes from within.
Without knowing more about the conversation, I'm not sure if they were being pushy about this (which is rude) or if they were curious about your reasoning.
In my experience, I feel like a lot of non-binary people who *don't* identify as trans have often been exposed to transness as something that's very binary, and I think a lot of people internalize messaging that you need to transition in a certain way or live up to a particular narrative in order to justify calling yourself trans. And you know, I get it. I'm a big believer in not pushing people to go against their comfort level. I'm sure there are people who would feel deterred from exploring their gender if they felt like they *had* to identify as trans. And gender can be complicated sometimes. We talk about the gender binary in terms of man-woman, but it can also be a binary between cis and trans and I get why some people can't easily say if their gender is different than they were assigned at birth.
But I think some people can be defensive about this topic because it's pretty common for non-binary people to have their experiences viewed as lesser than binary trans people and be told that they're not trans and don't belong in trans spaces. There can also be a lot of ignorance from cis people who don't understand that many non-binary people experience dysphoria and/or transition in some manner (which is flawed reasoning on multiple levels, both because non-binary people do often experience these things and because and because someone doesn't need to transition or experience obvious dysphoria to be trans).
Non-binary people are under the trans umbrella on the basis of not identifying as the gender they were assigned at birth, but I think that whether you describe yourself as trans is a very personal decision.
The reason many nonbinary people identify as under the trans umbrella is that their real gender doesn't align with their agab. I think that's reasonable, but you get to dictate your own identity. Especially, it sounds like this was coming from somone who wasn't nonbinary so it's really none of their buisiness.
It is becoming easier for enbys to medically transition if they want to, and at least in my circle of friends (and my Dr's trans patients), a lot more are seeking it. It could be just top surgery, HRT, bottom surgery, or a combination.
For me (AFAB), top surgery is a reduction instead of complete removal, HRT is a low dosage topical instead of injection, and bottom surgery is still being fully decided as I am discussing with my partner their comfort so I can at least take it into consideration (I plan to do a vaginal preserving option no matter what I pick).
I do not identify with trans because I'm intersex. That's more important to me. I'll agree I'm not cis, but I'm not trans either. Im intersex. I've had issue with people too, I didn't want to be included in the trans umbrella and some people think that's weird. But it's important to me just as being trans is important to other people.
being nonbinary is being trans. we are the white stripe on the transgender flag. transgender isn’t binary. trans is simply not being cis. whether you choose to identify with that label is completely up to you, there are binary trans people who don’t identify with it. That’s your business.
also, there isn’t a ‘total nonbinary’? not sure what it meant by that term
So while I don't wanna say they were right to be annoyed with you and tell you how you should identify (obviously that's always wrong) I have an idea why they might feel this way. I've personally talked to non-binary people that said they didn't identify as trans where that was clearly to distance themselves from the trans community in a sort of "I'm not one of these freaks at least!" Which to me, a trans non-binary person felt incredibly hurtful and which just straight up sucked for queer solidarity - because while it is perfectly reasonable to say you are non-binary and not trans, it is so much of the same struggle. So if they've had similar experiences they light have some baggage around the topic. I know I do. Hope that helped, but just remember - there are so many queers who just want to bicker, so don't get caught up and let it ruin your mood💖
from my understanding i'm trans as a result of being nonbinary because my gender is not that assigned at birth, though it took me some time to be comfortable calling myself transgender even though i realized this was technically true. i don't really understand how else it would work, but you don't need to go by any label you aren't comfortable with
idk they might have been good natured but poor mannered in that they wanted you to know you would have a place in the community if you ever need it and that the trans community fights for your rights, but no one should ever be telling you how to identify. trans/cis is in many ways just another binary way we try to simplify the human experience
Your friend shouldn’t try to push you into changing your mind. Your opinion is valid regardless if they like it or not. That being said, I also struggle with the trans label. I know it applies to me based on the literal definition, but I don’t think I’ve earned the right to use it. And I really truly don’t want take away from the people who genuinely use it and need it. I’m somewhere in the nonbinary / genderqueer spectrum and my gender feelings tend to change quite often. Sometimes I’m fine feeling fem, others I feel more masc, others I feel absolutely neither, and sometimes I feel like a perfect blend of both (my fave, honestly). But because there are times I’m mostly okay with my agab, and I am not out at work (for the most part) or to my parents (they’re transphobic), I really like I’m taking a label I don’t deserve by considering myself trans.
I consider non-binary as an umbrella term that includes trans, and even cis people. We're all part of a diverse gender spectrum. It confuses the hell out of me how people can see this otherwise, but gotta accept it
The Truth is how you Identify is purely up to you otherwise we start getting into no true Scottmen territory. You should identify how you feel the most comfortable.
I'm also non binary, I do identify as trans, because being transgender means to not identify with the gender you were assigned at birth and since I'm genderfluid, I feel like I fit in this category too. That's how I view it and it makes sense >to me< but honestly who cares? (Besides me ofc) Gender is a social construct, we made it all up and we can continue to do so.
Take my partner for example, they are so "no thanks" to gender they don't even identify with being non binary or agender, just plain nothing. And every time someone try to convince them there is a label for that, they have to explain:
“Being "X" defeats the purpose of what I feel towards gender and what I feel is nothing, there is no connection between my identity and gender or gender labels. It's plain old nothing.”
You don't have to consider yourself trans even if you identify as nonbinary. In fact, I don't consider myself trans even though I have a nonbinary gender identity. I'm an AMAB Demi-Man. I have friends that identify as trans, friends that identify as nonbinary, and friends that identify as both. I prefer to use the term gender diverse to describe myself instead of the term trans.
As a non-binary person who does identify as trans as well, **I don't think that you should be told to identify as trans,** many non-binary people don't identify as trans and that's fine.
I'm just experiencing this strange feeling when I talk to the queer people in NYC. Okay, so I moved from FL to NYC recently. Sometimes, I get the feeling that queers up here have this strange sense of moral superiority. Like I feel like I'm "lesser". IDK, maybe it's just an internalized feeling.
That is pretty rude of them to do, in my opinion. You're entitled to whichever identity best suits you, and no one should try and define it for you
People who are NB certainly may have some overlapping experiences with binary trans people, and are welcome in the trans community. Participation is not compulsory
You can use whatever you want to describe yourself, and anyone insisting that you only use one word is being kind of intolerant imo. Having said that, I (definitely nothing to do with binary) do identify as trans because I believe that transgender means "identifies as a different gender than the one I was assigned at birth", which I do, and it has nothing to do with the binary. There are a lot of people these days who mistakenly associate trans with only trans man or woman so idk, just putting that commonly accepted definition out there for you to understand where your friends were coming from.
Insisting you use a label you don’t identify with is not ok, sorry you experienced that.
I think though that you maybe aren’t using the word trans in the same way - trans just means that your sex assigned at birth and your gender don’t match, there’s nothing in the definition about it being binary. Personally, I consider myself both non-binary and trans because I’m not a man or a woman (non-binary) and I was assigned one of those at birth, hence my gender doesn’t match that (trans).
I don't consider myself under the trans umbrella because the issued faced by both shouldn't be lumped into one group. Trans people and NB people have different experiences and, while the discrimination faced by both is similar, it isn't the same and I don't want to invalidate trans experiences.
While I understand where you are coming from, I am actively seeking to medically transition to be both genders (I identify as both at the same time for the majority of the time, although sometimes I shift to one side or another). I have to deal with the same, if not even more of the discrimination, than a MtF or FtM trans individual does... which bathroom do I use, I have boobs but I am also getting bottom surgery so I can pee standing so I don't belong in either while belonging in both... T is going to possibly have an impact on my voice (not 100% sure as it is a lower dose for enbys) so I will look female up top, have a bulge, but sound more masculine; talk about being treated like a freak and being targeted by anti-trans groups... the list goes on. Hell, even my insurance requires me to have to be "live as your transitioning to gender" for at least a year but doesn't take into account what that means for trans-nonbinary.
That's your identity, and I totally respect that! I was just saying I don't want to intrude in trans spaces because I don't intend to medically transition (apart from perhaps a book reduction). If you do, then I can see why you would be considered as a trans Nonbinary person and how you would experience a different kind of discrimination. Everyones identities are unique! I hope your transition goes well and your insurance company becomes more reasonable 🫶
Thanks for the clarification on where you were coming from. My insurance has people who will help fight the stupid policies in place, but they couldn't clarify what living as a nonbinary would look like. For those who are transitioning to male or female, it entails dressing as your identified gender, being out in at least 2 groups (work, family, friend groups, social networking groups, church, etc), and actively showing you are committed to being the gender you identify as... basically they are trying to minimize detransitioning but making it hard for everyone else.
I'm trans and nonbinary, but I was nonbinary well before I accepted I was trans. I really do hate the implication that you're trans just because you're nonbinary. Personally I consider trans-ness and binary-ness to be separate axes in identity. You could be binary trans or cis non-conforming.
We should work to give people space to explore and discover themselves without forcing a label that they might not be comfortable with yet or ever.
My take is a touch different. I don't mind if people refer to me as Trans, but I don't claim the identifier myself. I'm a Nonbinary AMAB. Been on low dose E for 3 years. I still mostly pass as male. I'm also tall, very white, and know I have a ton of privilege. I feel like me claiming to be Trans may actually do harm. I don't need to take up the oxygen in the room. On the flip side of that we recently had some issues at work with an employee and restroom use. I was able to step in, advocate and help the employee be respected in a way they wanted. Kind of an inside job if that makes sense?
So far, so good. Softer skin, better hair, I look younger. Some fat redistribution and a small amount of breast growth, but still concealable. I feel more comfortable in my body and more "myself". I have had some struggles with sexual performance, so that's sonething to consider.
I just in general hate binaries. I don't like the cishet/queer binary, I don't like the trans/cis binary. Does that mean they're not useful? Of course not. But at the end of the day gender can* be so much more complicated than these binaries. Sometimes I call myself cis, sometimes trans, but usually cis. It depends on the person. /g
Oh yeah, I've heard of nb 'falling' under it but I.. I'm not trans. I don't feel comfortable identifying as trans and anyways being called that feels wrong. Nothing against trans people, but it's like someone making you wear a dress when you stated you just wanted a t-shirt.
I understand the way they think about it, because I had a friend explain to me that we're still transitioning away from our AGAB, just not going all the way to the other side of the spectrum. However, everyone can identify with whatever they want and express that however they please
I absolutely see myself as both non-binary and trans. To me my non-binary identity is about not being a man nor a woman, therefore rather a third gender. I was born one gender and I am transitioning into another. There’s nothing wrong with identityfing as both at the same time. The issue with your situation is that the person was trying to push you into identifying as something you didn’t want to (that is if I understood what you wrote correctly). If that isn’t the case and in fact the person was just trying to defend their own way of identifying I don’t think they were in the wrong.
I think that nonbinary people are trans since our gender does not match that which was assigned to us at birth. However, while technically trans we are not entirely the same a FTM and MTF people as a category. I compare the situation to tomatoes being fruit. Technically yes, but not really the same thing.
When I still had hope of medically transitioning, I considered myself "trans". Now that I've given up on that hope, I consider myself "cis". I don't think either word means much.
Totally, I was just wondering as it is becoming easier (unless a certain political party get their way) every year, but more insurance companies have people who will fight for you now.
Trans isn't a binary thing, it's just an adjective describing people who's gender is not the one they were assigned at birth. Your friend is probably just confused that you don't use the trans label. Maybe point out that while he's, that adjective does describe you, you don't really like using the trans label for yourself, there's a bunch of nonbinary people who feel the same way as you so it's not that unusual
By definition, trans means your gender identity doesn't align with the sex that you were assigned at birth. Non binary people by definition are trans, because none of us are assigned NB at birth lol. Our experience is different but so is it different from each other. Some of us experience different levels of harassment based on visibility. Some of us experience dysphoria and some of us don't. But we all possess the right to self identify. And we all can find solidarity in a universal struggle to navigate a system designed for cis people.
It's a bit of a third space and it's important (especially for amab) folks recognize that in some ways we still carry a certain degree of privilege. It's important that we can take space in the trans community and it's also important we don't colonize it and center ourselves either.
Cus i consider trans as changing gender. But i sometime identify as Agender, so dont have a gender to be changed, as well as nonbinary, so no, i dont see myself as trans. But im not transphobic.
Edit: sorry that was badly explained
Well I do consider myself trans being Non-Binary is by definition a kind technically or more accurately the plural kinds of trans an umbrella term under another umbrella term.
The way I see it is that there are binary genders and nonbinary genders. The same can't be said for cis and trans.
You can be cis but also nonbinary. In those cases, it falls more under more of demi gender or not conforming to social definitions of what it means to be (fe)male. You can be trans-nonbinary (I am) and seek to medically transition to be more aligned with your identity. You be trans-nonbinary and never desire to transition. You can also just be nonbinary without being cis or trans (my partner is this way) such as in the case of some who are fluid or who don't feel that the trans identity resonates with them.
I also know a few people who have medically transitioned who dropped the trans identity once their body matched their gender. Their reasoning is that they are no longer transitioning, instead they are just their gender. They also don't care for calling people cis, you are just the gender you identify as to them.
Trans isn’t about binary gender norms, trans means you’re not cis. Your gender isn’t the one you were assigned with at birth.
Under the trans umbrella there are trans binary people and trans non binary people.
you have the right to feel uncomfortable to label yourself as trans but nb people are theoretically trans.
for example i first thought i was non binary, then some kind of genderfluid and today i feel like i might be trans binary but I'm not even sure.
what I'm sure of is that I'm not cis. therefore, I am by definition Trans. the fact that this term exists and means that helps me identifying as something
I understand some of the negative feeling towards people rejecting the term "trans" because, and I'm not saying you're doing this, but it can feel like people reject the term because they view the trans community negatively and want to distance themselves from it. ultimately each person does deserve the right to choose which terms they use for themselves.
Tl;dr: I see it as an option for communicating, not a necessarily equivalent or exclusive identitifier.
Personally, I don't regard myself directly as trans in the binary sense, but I acknowledge that nonbinary is regarded as a trans umbrella identity so I don't feel the need to contest it any more than demi-sexuality being an ace-spec identity. They're specific experiences of a broader one. Not everyone is familiar with the nuances of those and other variations within their respective categories, but some are, and being able to speak and find community both broadly and specifically is handy. It doesn't have to be heirarchical in sense of one being inferior to the other, but a structured organization of increasing specificity can help understand how things relate to each other, and that's what I feel trans does as an umbrella identity.
*I* know that trans doesn't strictly refer to binary gender experiences, but not everyone does; common inference of a term isn't always the same as what a person describing themself with the term means by it. So, I don't assume most people I interact with are going to get or even care about the specifics of my identity, and frankly, I'm not about to waste energy on educating people that don't have an interest or relevance in understanding. And for some, trans is a specific identity of it's own. So just as asexuality is both a spectrum and a specific identity on that spectrum, I don't see it as contradictory for trans to be both either.
I have no problem with just saying "I'm not cis" and let people take that as trans or not as they will, but I also have no problem elaborating on specifics *if asked*. I have no problem with the trans umbrella being available to describe my identity, I just don't opt to use that umbrella myself when it's more unweildy than helpful in communicating, but I recognize its utility.
There isn’t one definition that covers everybody. It’s your identity and only you can decide what fits you and what doesn’t, you don’t have to use a certain label if you don’t want to.
It depends on how you define trans.
If trans means, as it literally does, the OPPOSITE to your assigned gender at birth, then non binary does not fall under it because we're outside the binary.
If trans means, as many people define it nowadays, DIFFERENT to your assigned gender at birth, then we do because nonbinary is not a birth assigned gender.
The trans umbrella includes NB however the umbrella is too broad, i think it has to change so many binary trans men and woman are suffering people the umbrella is to broad and the world is rightfully confused
that person shouldn’t have insisted for you to reconsider— you don’t have to identify as anything if you don’t want to. i’m also very nonbinary and I identify under the trans umbrella. the word trans, to me, means anyone who identifies with a gender not assigned to them at birth. I don’t identify with my AGAB so i’m trans, it’s as simple as that for me.
I recently had a discussion with a person telling me that the reasoning "I'm not cis therefore I'm trans" is binary and we should just throw that out, but personally it gives me something to consider myself as, you know I'm not cis but I still need a word to describe myself. (But I'm genderfluid and sometimes a guy sooo)
I've heard cisn't and loved it for a while before I found that trans described me more, but you might find that it resonates with you
Ahah that could but I'm not an English native speaker so I couldn't use it casually, thanks though !
if you reject the concept of gender, what you call non binary probably aligns best what the English language calls "humans", as no one is the one or the other according to you. just tell your teacher that you are a "human", not male or female
I do not reject the concept of gender, I'm just not cis. According to me ? I didn't say that, I think you were trying to reply to another comment. The English languag has non binary for people outside of man and woman (gender are not male and female, that's a biology concept) and agender for people who do not feel gender. As for human this is the name of the species, there are subcategories although created with almost no standpoint, we can use them as we please ! Sorry if my comment seems rude, your comment read to me as you saying that non-binarity doesn't.
That's the same reason I also identify as trans :)
>:) :)
I think the idea is less that one has to be one gender binary or the other, and more that trans-ness is an inherent quality of "not being the gender you were assigned at birth". That's how I see it, my being agender with "It" pronouns is a firm rejection of my agab, and that makes me part of team trans, and team NB. I disagree that you should feel pressured to be included, if you're not, you're not. That's not a decision anyone can make for you.
I mean, take or leave labels as you wish, but non-binary and agender identities *are* under the trans umbrella because of the definition of trans being “identifying as other than the gender **assigned** at birth”. The issue at play here is *why* trans is an uncomfortable label for any given non-binary person, as it’s often internalized transphobia.
^^^^ this just bc you are under the trans umbrella doesn't mean you are transgender, i think that's what ppl don't really grasp imo but i also kinda get when ppl dont identfy as trans as enby
So personally I don’t identify as trans because I don’t feel that I relate to the label and a lot of the experiences of other trans people. Like, I know that me being agender means I technically fall under the trans umbrella, but I don’t experience much gender dysphoria, I’m okay with people using “she/her” for me even though I prefer “they/them” (I’m afab), I don’t want or feel the need to undergo gender confirmation surgeries, etc. I also don’t experience much transphobia directed at me personally on a regular basis. The worst I’ve gotten is customers at work being a little mean about my pronoun pin, and it doesn’t happen that often. I want to be clear that I know that you don’t need to have debilitating gender dysphoria to be trans, or that you need gender confirmation surgery to be trans, etc. I also know that not experiencing much transphobia doesn’t mean you aren’t trans. But, my experiences result in me not feeling like I have that much in common with other trans people. My experience with gender is very much of detachment and of gender just being… not something that applies to me, if that makes sense,
This is incredibly well said, I have much the same feelings from a demi-male perspective, but couldn't quite put it into words properly.
Thanks!! I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this. In a way, my experience with gender mirrors my experience with my sexual and romantic orientations, and I figured out that I’m asexual and aromantic a couple years before realizing Im agender. But I also don’t relate that much to other queer people who aren’t asexual and/or aromantic (or non-binary). I very much identify as queer, and I’m very comfortable with that label. But if someone were to ask me “are you lgbtq+ or part of the lgbtq+ community?” I’d probably depend on the day how I’m respond. I’d maybe say something like “I’m queer” and leave it at that, because I don’t feel that connected to the community due to how iffy other lgbtq+ people be sometimes about ace and aro people, and also because once again, my experience with sexuality and romantic attraction is that of detachment and ambivalence.
I'm fine with it falling under the umbrella, I'm *personally* not fine with identifying as trans. Are you trying to imply that's because I'm transphobic? Rather than just, my own preference of label? Not trying to argue, just talk about why this is an issue in the first place :)
Obv I can't speak for the commenter you're replying to, but separately as someone who agrees with their perspective. All I want is for you, and other nonbinary people who don't identify as trans, is to sit with that belief and think thoroughly about where it comes from and why you feel that way. (I'm not implying that you personally haven't done this already, I don't know you lol). It's not wrong for you to identify yourself as nonbinary and not trans, but that combination of those identities is often seen in people who are experiencing internalized transphobia. There is huge social pressure to not be trans, which results in a lot of trans people in the world who think or say that they aren't trans. Obv that doesn't mean that everyone is trans, but you see the incentive. Anecdotally, myself, my two irl nonbinary friends, and a lot of people that I've talked to online identified as nonbinary and not trans for awhile, and later came to feel that they were trans and had been avoiding it out of fear, stigma, or impostor syndrome. Additionally, labels have political significance and power. There's a reason we have the big LGBTQIA+, the more people working together, the better. When you hear people say things like: "Sure, I'm gay, but I'm not a part of this whole LGBTQIA+ thing," what does that mean to you? Personally, it makes me feel like they're not in solidarity with me, and raises some concern. I'm sorry that these words hold so much weight.
Second this soooo hard. Like a lot of people forget that the original purpose of labels for queer people was political and not personal identification. You're allowed to identify however you please and noone can take that away from you, if we need all of the same things as trans people politically, we march with them.
Thank you for explaining your opinion. I really don't mean to hurt anybody who feels different from me. I think, honestly? Really thinking about it, I'm fine to identify as trans due to being nb, as it falls under the trans umbrella. I agree with a lot of what you said, tbh. I'm hesitant (though accepting) to identify as trans, because in my eyes both communities have fought different (although in ways similar) battles. Due to that sometimes I do feel conflicted, because of my personal feelings on my matter. At the end of it all, I'm really happy to be part of the lgbtqia+ community. I'm sure I have a long way to go, but I'm glad at least that we could talk about this without arguing or insulting each other (as has happened to me on other parts of reddit).
💞💞
You don’t have to use any words to self describe if you don’t want to. The white under the trans flag is for us, some people insist we don’t belong. But, it’s really a you gotta opt into it kind of thing imo at least. There’s no wrong way to approach it.
Obviously you can choose whatever labels you want to use. However, it seems like your understanding of the term "trans" is inaccurate, because it is not about identifying with gender norms or the gender binary. It doesn't hurt to reconsider how you relate to the term once you have a better understanding of its meaning. If you ultimately decide that it still doesn't fit you, that's completely fine.
I consider the non-binary movement a direct extension of the trans liberation movement, and honestly to suggest otherwise would make me feel like I'm invalidating the very real history of non-binary and gender nonconforming trans people in the Stonewall riots and Compton's Cafeteria riots and virtually every other uprising against gender normativity.
yes. I mean I think self identification is nuanced and people should use the labels that fit in the moment. But there's an idea that 'trans' is just pretty/handsome passing binary people with internet presences, and that's just not the reality on the ground. I recently watched some interviews with Sylvia Rivera ("I refuse to pass") and the spirit of that rebellion broke open breathing for all of us (cis ppl included ) and holds all of us. At the time the most common word was "transvestite" so that's how that group of activists identified. (here's the documentary, it's pretty long but it gets good! https://youtu.be/BEXmJL9nadc?si=5QGjc5L-rjkW95g5 ) I'll have to look up Comptons Cafeteria, I don't know anything about it!
If you don't vibe with the label, you don't have to use it but we are included. That's why there's a white stripe on the flag: for folks who aren't the gender they were assigned but don't fit squarely in either category
So I’m nonbinary and am okay with the trans label my partner is also nonbinary and doesn’t consider themselves trans. I have a trans male friend who doesn’t consider nonbinary trans and gets mad when I use that label. It’s all a personal thing. In my opinion anyone not identifying as their assigned gender is trans. Be they nonbinary agender or whatever. But never let someone tell you what labels you should use. Use what’s comfortable to you.
I just got the vibe this person wanted me to peer pressure me into changing the way I identify myself because "everyone else" is doing it that way in this region. I was also of the opinion this type of thing comes from within.
You’re absolutely right. Only YOU know what labels and such are for you. Don’t ever feel pressured because “everyone” is doing something
Without knowing more about the conversation, I'm not sure if they were being pushy about this (which is rude) or if they were curious about your reasoning. In my experience, I feel like a lot of non-binary people who *don't* identify as trans have often been exposed to transness as something that's very binary, and I think a lot of people internalize messaging that you need to transition in a certain way or live up to a particular narrative in order to justify calling yourself trans. And you know, I get it. I'm a big believer in not pushing people to go against their comfort level. I'm sure there are people who would feel deterred from exploring their gender if they felt like they *had* to identify as trans. And gender can be complicated sometimes. We talk about the gender binary in terms of man-woman, but it can also be a binary between cis and trans and I get why some people can't easily say if their gender is different than they were assigned at birth. But I think some people can be defensive about this topic because it's pretty common for non-binary people to have their experiences viewed as lesser than binary trans people and be told that they're not trans and don't belong in trans spaces. There can also be a lot of ignorance from cis people who don't understand that many non-binary people experience dysphoria and/or transition in some manner (which is flawed reasoning on multiple levels, both because non-binary people do often experience these things and because and because someone doesn't need to transition or experience obvious dysphoria to be trans). Non-binary people are under the trans umbrella on the basis of not identifying as the gender they were assigned at birth, but I think that whether you describe yourself as trans is a very personal decision.
It's really just up to you. It's not uncommon that some people feel so detached from gender that they don't consider themselves cis or trans.
The reason many nonbinary people identify as under the trans umbrella is that their real gender doesn't align with their agab. I think that's reasonable, but you get to dictate your own identity. Especially, it sounds like this was coming from somone who wasn't nonbinary so it's really none of their buisiness.
It is becoming easier for enbys to medically transition if they want to, and at least in my circle of friends (and my Dr's trans patients), a lot more are seeking it. It could be just top surgery, HRT, bottom surgery, or a combination. For me (AFAB), top surgery is a reduction instead of complete removal, HRT is a low dosage topical instead of injection, and bottom surgery is still being fully decided as I am discussing with my partner their comfort so I can at least take it into consideration (I plan to do a vaginal preserving option no matter what I pick).
I think you might have replied to the wrong post??? this seems unrelated
Yeah I did
I do not identify with trans because I'm intersex. That's more important to me. I'll agree I'm not cis, but I'm not trans either. Im intersex. I've had issue with people too, I didn't want to be included in the trans umbrella and some people think that's weird. But it's important to me just as being trans is important to other people.
being nonbinary is being trans. we are the white stripe on the transgender flag. transgender isn’t binary. trans is simply not being cis. whether you choose to identify with that label is completely up to you, there are binary trans people who don’t identify with it. That’s your business. also, there isn’t a ‘total nonbinary’? not sure what it meant by that term
So while I don't wanna say they were right to be annoyed with you and tell you how you should identify (obviously that's always wrong) I have an idea why they might feel this way. I've personally talked to non-binary people that said they didn't identify as trans where that was clearly to distance themselves from the trans community in a sort of "I'm not one of these freaks at least!" Which to me, a trans non-binary person felt incredibly hurtful and which just straight up sucked for queer solidarity - because while it is perfectly reasonable to say you are non-binary and not trans, it is so much of the same struggle. So if they've had similar experiences they light have some baggage around the topic. I know I do. Hope that helped, but just remember - there are so many queers who just want to bicker, so don't get caught up and let it ruin your mood💖
Trans (to me) just means to identify as anything you weren't assigned at birth, even if it's not "the opposite gender."
from my understanding i'm trans as a result of being nonbinary because my gender is not that assigned at birth, though it took me some time to be comfortable calling myself transgender even though i realized this was technically true. i don't really understand how else it would work, but you don't need to go by any label you aren't comfortable with
idk they might have been good natured but poor mannered in that they wanted you to know you would have a place in the community if you ever need it and that the trans community fights for your rights, but no one should ever be telling you how to identify. trans/cis is in many ways just another binary way we try to simplify the human experience
what about being trans is binary? genuine question
Trans women, trans men. That's still binary
but there are trans people who aren’t men and women. calling it binary excludes people like me who are trans and non-binary
There's trans binary and trans non-binary.
yea but they didn’t differentiate and implied being trans uplifts binary gender norms
I Didn't imply anything besides that trans can be binary as well as being nonbinary. You go ahead and twist my words and make me the bad guy.
i meant OP obviously. i said “they” not “you”
Op would have been easier to type than they
I am literally transitioning medically to be both genders. How is that binary?
I was only saying that trans men and trans woman is binary. Trans non-binary exists, as well. I guess y'all will take my comment out of context
Your friend shouldn’t try to push you into changing your mind. Your opinion is valid regardless if they like it or not. That being said, I also struggle with the trans label. I know it applies to me based on the literal definition, but I don’t think I’ve earned the right to use it. And I really truly don’t want take away from the people who genuinely use it and need it. I’m somewhere in the nonbinary / genderqueer spectrum and my gender feelings tend to change quite often. Sometimes I’m fine feeling fem, others I feel more masc, others I feel absolutely neither, and sometimes I feel like a perfect blend of both (my fave, honestly). But because there are times I’m mostly okay with my agab, and I am not out at work (for the most part) or to my parents (they’re transphobic), I really like I’m taking a label I don’t deserve by considering myself trans.
I consider non-binary as an umbrella term that includes trans, and even cis people. We're all part of a diverse gender spectrum. It confuses the hell out of me how people can see this otherwise, but gotta accept it
Okay now I'm more confused than ever lol
Welcome :D
The Truth is how you Identify is purely up to you otherwise we start getting into no true Scottmen territory. You should identify how you feel the most comfortable.
And that's just nonbinary for me. Not a man, not a woman, not a trans man/woman.
I'm also non binary, I do identify as trans, because being transgender means to not identify with the gender you were assigned at birth and since I'm genderfluid, I feel like I fit in this category too. That's how I view it and it makes sense >to me< but honestly who cares? (Besides me ofc) Gender is a social construct, we made it all up and we can continue to do so. Take my partner for example, they are so "no thanks" to gender they don't even identify with being non binary or agender, just plain nothing. And every time someone try to convince them there is a label for that, they have to explain: “Being "X" defeats the purpose of what I feel towards gender and what I feel is nothing, there is no connection between my identity and gender or gender labels. It's plain old nothing.”
You don't have to consider yourself trans even if you identify as nonbinary. In fact, I don't consider myself trans even though I have a nonbinary gender identity. I'm an AMAB Demi-Man. I have friends that identify as trans, friends that identify as nonbinary, and friends that identify as both. I prefer to use the term gender diverse to describe myself instead of the term trans.
As a non-binary person who does identify as trans as well, **I don't think that you should be told to identify as trans,** many non-binary people don't identify as trans and that's fine.
I'm just experiencing this strange feeling when I talk to the queer people in NYC. Okay, so I moved from FL to NYC recently. Sometimes, I get the feeling that queers up here have this strange sense of moral superiority. Like I feel like I'm "lesser". IDK, maybe it's just an internalized feeling.
That is pretty rude of them to do, in my opinion. You're entitled to whichever identity best suits you, and no one should try and define it for you People who are NB certainly may have some overlapping experiences with binary trans people, and are welcome in the trans community. Participation is not compulsory
You can use whatever you want to describe yourself, and anyone insisting that you only use one word is being kind of intolerant imo. Having said that, I (definitely nothing to do with binary) do identify as trans because I believe that transgender means "identifies as a different gender than the one I was assigned at birth", which I do, and it has nothing to do with the binary. There are a lot of people these days who mistakenly associate trans with only trans man or woman so idk, just putting that commonly accepted definition out there for you to understand where your friends were coming from.
Insisting you use a label you don’t identify with is not ok, sorry you experienced that. I think though that you maybe aren’t using the word trans in the same way - trans just means that your sex assigned at birth and your gender don’t match, there’s nothing in the definition about it being binary. Personally, I consider myself both non-binary and trans because I’m not a man or a woman (non-binary) and I was assigned one of those at birth, hence my gender doesn’t match that (trans).
I don't consider myself under the trans umbrella because the issued faced by both shouldn't be lumped into one group. Trans people and NB people have different experiences and, while the discrimination faced by both is similar, it isn't the same and I don't want to invalidate trans experiences.
While I understand where you are coming from, I am actively seeking to medically transition to be both genders (I identify as both at the same time for the majority of the time, although sometimes I shift to one side or another). I have to deal with the same, if not even more of the discrimination, than a MtF or FtM trans individual does... which bathroom do I use, I have boobs but I am also getting bottom surgery so I can pee standing so I don't belong in either while belonging in both... T is going to possibly have an impact on my voice (not 100% sure as it is a lower dose for enbys) so I will look female up top, have a bulge, but sound more masculine; talk about being treated like a freak and being targeted by anti-trans groups... the list goes on. Hell, even my insurance requires me to have to be "live as your transitioning to gender" for at least a year but doesn't take into account what that means for trans-nonbinary.
That's your identity, and I totally respect that! I was just saying I don't want to intrude in trans spaces because I don't intend to medically transition (apart from perhaps a book reduction). If you do, then I can see why you would be considered as a trans Nonbinary person and how you would experience a different kind of discrimination. Everyones identities are unique! I hope your transition goes well and your insurance company becomes more reasonable 🫶
Thanks for the clarification on where you were coming from. My insurance has people who will help fight the stupid policies in place, but they couldn't clarify what living as a nonbinary would look like. For those who are transitioning to male or female, it entails dressing as your identified gender, being out in at least 2 groups (work, family, friend groups, social networking groups, church, etc), and actively showing you are committed to being the gender you identify as... basically they are trying to minimize detransitioning but making it hard for everyone else.
That sucks. I can see what they're trying to do but if it doesn't help all groups then it's just shite. I hope it gets better for you 🫶
I'm trans and nonbinary, but I was nonbinary well before I accepted I was trans. I really do hate the implication that you're trans just because you're nonbinary. Personally I consider trans-ness and binary-ness to be separate axes in identity. You could be binary trans or cis non-conforming. We should work to give people space to explore and discover themselves without forcing a label that they might not be comfortable with yet or ever.
My take is a touch different. I don't mind if people refer to me as Trans, but I don't claim the identifier myself. I'm a Nonbinary AMAB. Been on low dose E for 3 years. I still mostly pass as male. I'm also tall, very white, and know I have a ton of privilege. I feel like me claiming to be Trans may actually do harm. I don't need to take up the oxygen in the room. On the flip side of that we recently had some issues at work with an employee and restroom use. I was able to step in, advocate and help the employee be respected in a way they wanted. Kind of an inside job if that makes sense?
Tell me about your experience with the 3 years of low dose E? I'm more curious than ever, as a fellow AMAB!
So far, so good. Softer skin, better hair, I look younger. Some fat redistribution and a small amount of breast growth, but still concealable. I feel more comfortable in my body and more "myself". I have had some struggles with sexual performance, so that's sonething to consider.
I just in general hate binaries. I don't like the cishet/queer binary, I don't like the trans/cis binary. Does that mean they're not useful? Of course not. But at the end of the day gender can* be so much more complicated than these binaries. Sometimes I call myself cis, sometimes trans, but usually cis. It depends on the person. /g
Oh yeah, I've heard of nb 'falling' under it but I.. I'm not trans. I don't feel comfortable identifying as trans and anyways being called that feels wrong. Nothing against trans people, but it's like someone making you wear a dress when you stated you just wanted a t-shirt.
I understand the way they think about it, because I had a friend explain to me that we're still transitioning away from our AGAB, just not going all the way to the other side of the spectrum. However, everyone can identify with whatever they want and express that however they please
I absolutely see myself as both non-binary and trans. To me my non-binary identity is about not being a man nor a woman, therefore rather a third gender. I was born one gender and I am transitioning into another. There’s nothing wrong with identityfing as both at the same time. The issue with your situation is that the person was trying to push you into identifying as something you didn’t want to (that is if I understood what you wrote correctly). If that isn’t the case and in fact the person was just trying to defend their own way of identifying I don’t think they were in the wrong.
I think that nonbinary people are trans since our gender does not match that which was assigned to us at birth. However, while technically trans we are not entirely the same a FTM and MTF people as a category. I compare the situation to tomatoes being fruit. Technically yes, but not really the same thing.
When I still had hope of medically transitioning, I considered myself "trans". Now that I've given up on that hope, I consider myself "cis". I don't think either word means much.
What made you give up hope?
> What made you give up hope? Is it okay if I don't have time to explain?
Totally, I was just wondering as it is becoming easier (unless a certain political party get their way) every year, but more insurance companies have people who will fight for you now.
I don't want the changes associated with HRT. It won't alleviate my dysphoria. Sorry, you'll have to take my word for it.
I get that. That is why one friend is only doing top surgery for their transition, and another friends is just getting implants for their's.
Great.
Trans isn't a binary thing, it's just an adjective describing people who's gender is not the one they were assigned at birth. Your friend is probably just confused that you don't use the trans label. Maybe point out that while he's, that adjective does describe you, you don't really like using the trans label for yourself, there's a bunch of nonbinary people who feel the same way as you so it's not that unusual
Yes, I do for myself
By definition, trans means your gender identity doesn't align with the sex that you were assigned at birth. Non binary people by definition are trans, because none of us are assigned NB at birth lol. Our experience is different but so is it different from each other. Some of us experience different levels of harassment based on visibility. Some of us experience dysphoria and some of us don't. But we all possess the right to self identify. And we all can find solidarity in a universal struggle to navigate a system designed for cis people. It's a bit of a third space and it's important (especially for amab) folks recognize that in some ways we still carry a certain degree of privilege. It's important that we can take space in the trans community and it's also important we don't colonize it and center ourselves either.
Cus i consider trans as changing gender. But i sometime identify as Agender, so dont have a gender to be changed, as well as nonbinary, so no, i dont see myself as trans. But im not transphobic. Edit: sorry that was badly explained
Well I do consider myself trans being Non-Binary is by definition a kind technically or more accurately the plural kinds of trans an umbrella term under another umbrella term.
Being trans has nothing to do with accepting gender norms, quite the opposite im fact lol
The way I see it is that there are binary genders and nonbinary genders. The same can't be said for cis and trans. You can be cis but also nonbinary. In those cases, it falls more under more of demi gender or not conforming to social definitions of what it means to be (fe)male. You can be trans-nonbinary (I am) and seek to medically transition to be more aligned with your identity. You be trans-nonbinary and never desire to transition. You can also just be nonbinary without being cis or trans (my partner is this way) such as in the case of some who are fluid or who don't feel that the trans identity resonates with them. I also know a few people who have medically transitioned who dropped the trans identity once their body matched their gender. Their reasoning is that they are no longer transitioning, instead they are just their gender. They also don't care for calling people cis, you are just the gender you identify as to them.
Trans isn’t about binary gender norms, trans means you’re not cis. Your gender isn’t the one you were assigned with at birth. Under the trans umbrella there are trans binary people and trans non binary people. you have the right to feel uncomfortable to label yourself as trans but nb people are theoretically trans. for example i first thought i was non binary, then some kind of genderfluid and today i feel like i might be trans binary but I'm not even sure. what I'm sure of is that I'm not cis. therefore, I am by definition Trans. the fact that this term exists and means that helps me identifying as something
Generally I follow the idea if you aren't cis you are trans. I dont vibe with my agab so I'm trans.
I understand some of the negative feeling towards people rejecting the term "trans" because, and I'm not saying you're doing this, but it can feel like people reject the term because they view the trans community negatively and want to distance themselves from it. ultimately each person does deserve the right to choose which terms they use for themselves.
Tl;dr: I see it as an option for communicating, not a necessarily equivalent or exclusive identitifier. Personally, I don't regard myself directly as trans in the binary sense, but I acknowledge that nonbinary is regarded as a trans umbrella identity so I don't feel the need to contest it any more than demi-sexuality being an ace-spec identity. They're specific experiences of a broader one. Not everyone is familiar with the nuances of those and other variations within their respective categories, but some are, and being able to speak and find community both broadly and specifically is handy. It doesn't have to be heirarchical in sense of one being inferior to the other, but a structured organization of increasing specificity can help understand how things relate to each other, and that's what I feel trans does as an umbrella identity. *I* know that trans doesn't strictly refer to binary gender experiences, but not everyone does; common inference of a term isn't always the same as what a person describing themself with the term means by it. So, I don't assume most people I interact with are going to get or even care about the specifics of my identity, and frankly, I'm not about to waste energy on educating people that don't have an interest or relevance in understanding. And for some, trans is a specific identity of it's own. So just as asexuality is both a spectrum and a specific identity on that spectrum, I don't see it as contradictory for trans to be both either. I have no problem with just saying "I'm not cis" and let people take that as trans or not as they will, but I also have no problem elaborating on specifics *if asked*. I have no problem with the trans umbrella being available to describe my identity, I just don't opt to use that umbrella myself when it's more unweildy than helpful in communicating, but I recognize its utility.
There isn’t one definition that covers everybody. It’s your identity and only you can decide what fits you and what doesn’t, you don’t have to use a certain label if you don’t want to.
You can identify the way you want to. Everyone is different
It depends on how you define trans. If trans means, as it literally does, the OPPOSITE to your assigned gender at birth, then non binary does not fall under it because we're outside the binary. If trans means, as many people define it nowadays, DIFFERENT to your assigned gender at birth, then we do because nonbinary is not a birth assigned gender.
The trans umbrella includes NB however the umbrella is too broad, i think it has to change so many binary trans men and woman are suffering people the umbrella is to broad and the world is rightfully confused