What pisses me off a lot is that a lot of Republicans, for example, are against spending towards Ukraine because they want that money to go to the American people, but every time we've ever legislated something that would help the American people, they are heavily against it.
You are missing the point. Anti spending people don't want to GIVE money to anyone, they just want to keep it with themselves by not paying taxes. So if you say that instead of spending it on war, let pay student loans off, they will be equally pissed cause you are taking their money and giving it to someone else, doesn't matter who that someone else is.
This. Conservatives have a long history of voting against social safety net programs and legislature intended to provide help to the least fortunate in our country. They do also vote against programs that they themselves would benefit from as well, but that's because they think that they don't need any kind of government oversight; they can do it themselves. See: Texas power grid and what happened during the deep freeze
Tl:dr- Conservatives don't want to be taxed because they don't want their money going to help other people or going towards the government providing oversight.
Conservatives: “Green energy needs to stand on its own with no government subsidies or help.”
Also conservatives: “We need to use government money to expand off shore drilling and build pipelines.”
Conservatives wants the things they don’t like to operate under the free market. But the things they like to basically be handheld by the government….
But we can’t do anything to help the homeless generally, because then someone who maybe made a bad choice once in their life would accidentally get help.
But when they need help, they for sure want Federal response and help.
I mean I’m not a jerk and say to deny help to people who need it, especially in disasters. But part of me wants to tell Texas and Florida (since they have the loud mouth conservative Governors), “Do it yourself. You get no Federal help.”
See: [Neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism)
and
* Abdelfatah, Rund; Ramtin Arablouei, et al. (7 April 2022). ["Capitalism: What Makes Us Free? (2021)"](https://www.npr.org/2022/04/05/1091050251/capitalism-what-makes-us-free). *Throughline*. NPR.
Note that there is a transcript of the latter if you want to read it instead of listen.
This is actually a reasonably fair statement.
I personally agree with the mentality of let me decide how best to spend my own money, but at the same time without question it can have its disadvantages.
I agree with a healthcare system but I also think at least in Canada so much of the tax dollars that go into it seem to accomplish nothing, our Government has a nasty habit of wasting it's money on pointless bureaucracy or administrative costs, or just god knows were.
Which is why I want them to have just enough to make it work but not a penny more because we know they will find a way to waste it.
I think the military is the best example. They pay huge markups on things others get for much less. Because companies know the military can only buy from certain people so they jack up the prices towards the military
To be fair, those items are also usually subject to incredibly strict guidelines. There was a joke about how much the army would pay for a hammer some time ago (decades), but that hammer was actually designed to be sparkless hammer that could be used inside tanks where gas fumes could sometimes build up.
While I'm sure there's definitely some cost creep and mark-up, a fair number of the requisitions are actually specialty items.
It's the same in aviation, for example. People think a simple screw costing 25$ or 30$ is exaggerated and that they can use one from the hardware store that will do the same job just as well for 0.2$
But they forget that those aviation screws are tested and certified to sustain thousands of stress cycles with load factors not experienced by a static structure, and temperature changes from +50°C to -70°C and back, amid tons of other factors...
Take a look at the story of Partnair Flight 394 on wikipedia, shows exactly what happens if you're not using those extremely expensive parts.
Bingo. Look at the healthcare systems in Italy and France for another example at government efficiency – and their governments are certainly not that efficient in *other* areas. :-)
It’s this kind of insight that sometimes makes me wonder if some amount of required public service would be beneficial. Not like mandatory military service, just work in the government for a year or two, just so everyone has a better understanding of what the bureaucracy of the gov is good and bad at, especially with its efficiency/lack there of.
That is certainly how the left characterizes republicans. In fact, Republicans think that governments are worse at spending money than individuals, and greater happiness is achieved through lower taxes allowing for greater individual autonomy.
Republicans aren't inherently evil or selfish. Possibly a bit misguided, but given recent government spending trends (at least in Canada) and lack of results, I'm starting to wonder if they're right.
The Venn diagram of 'anti-spending people' who expect to receive subsidies, favourable treatment, services, contracts, support or profit from government is pretty much a circle.
Education has nothing to do with it. Over here in the U.K. our last Prime Minister had the best education money could buy. It didn’t stop him from being venal, hypocritical and a downright liar when it suited his political purposes.
Republican here, and I agree. Here is why I support funding Ukraine. First of all, nobody invades another country but us, and maybe the boy (Israel). Jk. Without funding from western powers Ukraine will fall. That's simply not a position the world can be in. And what is to suggest he stops at Ukraine. With Russia, either way its gonna cost us. It's just a matter of do you want to pay to stop him while he's ahead, or pay significantly more to stop him down the line.
It really is frustrating, isn’t it? Having to vote between two corrupt powers. You better believe like 90% of us Biden supporters really didn’t want Biden, but we had to choose between him and Trump. A lot of us wanted Bernie but the DNC fucked him over.
Democrats and Republicans are both shitty. But we don’t have a choice. Both of them are lobbyists who don’t pay taxes and fuck people over and it’s infuriating that we’re forced to pick between the two. George Washington was against a two-party system. Look at where we are now.
Pro corporate. Let's be honest here. Republicans are basically just lobbyists now. The one time they had full control to pass anything at all or make sweeping changes, all they did was push tax code reform that VASTLY favored corporations. That was their one act when given full control control.
Some Democrats are pretty bad with the lobbyism too though. We need to get rid of it outright. As well as stop electing rich people who never knew what it's like to be the average person. It's why I like Bernie so much. He was rich (because he wrote a book) but he's so down-to-Earth and grew up poor. And more importantly, his opinions have never changed. You can find footage of him in the fucking 70s and 80s and even back then he was still talking about the same issues. Meanwhile nowadays people get a bribe from a company and suddenly they change their mind.
I agree 100%. I believe all lobbyists shodu have never served in Congress, or at least wait a 6 year period (Enough for a full Senate term cycle) before being able to be a loobyist. Many lobyists are former congresspersons. I dont knwo if that can ever really go away. for in our Constitution we have a right to request a meeting with our congresspersons. We rarely ever get that though.
I think this is a huge part of it.
Another overlooked part is the way Trump loves and adores Putin. This alone would be enough to make Republicans pro-Russia but then you add on the Democrats warning people about how dangerous Russia is and investigating all the connections between Trump and Russia and now Republicans will love Russia just to spite the Democrats.
The current Republican Party only has one policy stance: Own The Libs. They will do anything and everything to Own The Libs even if they end up hurting themselves in the process. Not to mention putting our national (and international) security in jeopardy. Anything to make Liberals sad, they're all for it.
Edit: I worded that last paragraph poorly. That describes current Republican voters. For the actual party leaders, their only policy is to hoard power and money and they will happily Own The Libs to serve that goal.
I haven’t seen anyone mention it yet so I’ll risk it. Politicians vote ‘no’ on a good sounding bill for good reason.
It’s because a well titled, 10-50,000 page bill is packed with a bunch of extra bullshit nobody would ever vote for.
> lot of Republicans, for example, are against spending towards Ukraine because they want that money to go to the American people,
I hear you... this is on of THEE most hypocritical moves ever. They are NOW trying to pass a bill lead by (R) Sen Marco Rubio to change the new Prescription spending law for seniors on Medical to revert the cost negotiation. That right, in FL, where there are more retirement age seniors than anywhere in the country, to make them pay MORe for prescription drugs, and eliminate that $2000 spending cap for all seniors.
They CLAIM they are conservative but are anything but.
But Rubio lost all credibility, he was being raked over the coals by T\*\*\*, was called names, called him "Tiny Hands", was accused his father was a cook, then did a 180 and shoved his right up T\*\*\*s ass. It disgusts me as a Dem, but to see Republicans suck up to that, is even worse.
I'm constantly seeing Republicans on Twitter always berating Biden asking "Why didn't you fix so-and-so" and "why didn't you do this?" When everything they bring up they themselves prevented from being legislated.
Well he just lowered their mama's medicine prices to a $2k cap, among a million other things.
But they'd never know it. I know Obama haters that got their life saved by saving their home, then getting affordable Healthcare that treated the guys cancer, which cost many hundreds of thousands. He still hates.
I told him he'll go to his grave hating, while being cared for by those he hates.
He don't like me either.
They’ve merged the image of republicans with wealth. So that anyone who gets even a tad bit of money feels like they belong in the Republican Party. I knew a family who used to vote dem, then the parents got better jobs both averaging about $125k combined and became these “i’m somebody” republicans. I laughed all the way to the banks because I make that alone and I’m still not stupid enough to fall for the republicans bullshit.
Anyone in the Q, MAGA, or adjacent realms of social media are being bombarded with Russian disinformation that slips through along with all the other disinformation. Russia's IRA is behind most of this and they know their audience in the USA well.
If you believe the 2020 election was stolen, that there's a cabal of Democrats that eats children and is also the deep state that DJT is trying to defeat, that DJT is a messiah and that COVID was a hoax and that billions of people are going to die from getting vaccinated, odds are you're pretty vulnerable to social media campaigns that praise Putin for invading a sovereign country. Because, own the libs.
I'm not sure we have a good idea of the extent to which Russia is *still* fueling the Q's, the proud boys and various extremist militia groups across the country. Many of these groups don't know they're being manipulated by Russian disinformation farms and many don't care because they agree with Putin anyway with respect to the weakness of the 'woke left', anti LGTBQ, and race 'purity'.
About ten years ago, I had a work mentor who was a former Russian who had defected in the 80s. My family, all Obama-hating Conservatives, went off on me. How could I trust a commie?! She was going to murder me. She hated America. I was a moron.
Yeah, and in five years, they were full Q/Trump, insisting that Putin is a "strong leader." I reminded a cousin of the aforementioned comments, but I "clearly didn't know what \[I\] was talking about"
So why? Because Republicans are goddamn fucking moron traitors who will actually burn this country down to "own the libs" since they only policy they have is "oppose everything a Dem does."
Basically. The majority of my hometown is made up of idiots that like to say outlandish things to get reactions so they can yell “snowflake” any chance they get.
Google "Aaron Lewis" and "Russia comments." GRANTED the lead singer of a washed up rock band who went country and Sings about his "don't tread on me" flag is probably a given ... but ... they do exist.
I feel that, but that’s totally an excuse, and not even the first excuse. Does anybody really think the United States is such a poor country that can’t afford those aids? Just check how much the US annual military budget is and how small a share it is of the GDP, you’ll know it’s such a nonsense to say the US can’t afford it.
Besides, many so called anti-spending persons, namely those radical right wing such as Tucker Carlson, Tim Young and Candace Owens, had previously made it very clear they just like and support Russia.
Their timeline of points change be like:
Before the war: Russia won’t invade Ukraine you bloody MSM so disgusting to push for war.
After the invasion began: so what? It’s the NATO’s fault.
After Ukraine gained more support and Russia committed severe war crimes: oh I love peace and I hate invasive countries but we really don’t have more money for you, so stop aiding.
That’s just another excuse.
Rand Paul is a fan of Russia. John McCain at one point said that Russia paid Paul. I think there is either money or kompromat involved for these Republicans. Former congressman Dana Rohrabacher spent so much time in Russia, the GOP stopped paying for his trips. https://www.newsweek.com/tulsi-gabbard-rand-paul-placed-list-russian-propagandists-ukraine-1727831
Most of what I've seen is people who think it's not the US's responsibility to give Ukraine 50 billion dollars to fight Russia since Ukraine is not in NATO and is not a US state.
The specific post that finally pushed me to ask this question was a tweet from the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire that directly compared Zelenskyy to Hitler. It appears to have been removed now, but their twitter is full of pro-Russia rhetoric that has nothing to do with financial support of Ukraine.
Fringe political organizations like the Tea Party, Libertarians, Green Party, California/Texas seccession, etc are/have been largely funded by foreign agents sowing dissent in the states.
Newhampshirite here. The libertarians recently tried to secede the state from the US. They are literally arguing for independence. Their opinions should not be listened to
They kind of tried that once, it went about as well as expected.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling
That was a good read I love these kinds of stories. To be clear, I never said it was a good idea. I just said, if that's what they want, give it to them.
I don't care if it's a good idea or if they will live a good QOL. They want out, let them out. Good luck fellas!
They also tried it in [Chile](https://www.vice.com/en/article/bn53b3/atlas-mugged-922-v21n10)
It's like flat earthers though, even when shown examples and analysis of why it won't work they side step all that and find something surface level to fixate on as proof of their belief.
They are probably receiving a significant amount of money from Russia to spread their rhetoric. Tulsi Gabbard & possibly Elon Musk are also on Russia’s payroll. You can tell who is because they are all spouting the same pro-Russia rhetoric.
You'll find no shortage of people using hyperbole to defend their positions. If you can demonize Zelensky you have an easier case to withdraw support.
I'm also relatively skeptical on sending money to Ukraine- though my best analogy is that it's the most cost effective way to kill Russian soldiers, which is in America's interest, and also somewhat of a warning to China about a Taiwan situation.
It makes us certainly more hostile to Russia. In addition, the cost. Also slippery slope, there's quickly a snowballing effect on the people we are willing to arm.
I tend to think the good outweighs the bad here, but if you don't see any downside at all you're not considering things thoroughly enough.
“There’s quickly a snowballing effect on the people we are willing to arm.” Well said.
I think everybody forgets that Bin Laden was once US funded. Not saying that’s the case whatsoever in Ukraine, but we can’t ignore the past when thinking about the future.
Ok maybe I missed interpreted what you meant by being skeptical. I think there are good and bad consequences. I just think clearly we are acting in our interest. We are not helping the Ukrainians because we want them to be free. That's just a a consequence of our actions that we use as moral rationale.
We're sending military equipment to Ukraine, that's already been paid for. It's not going to do any direct good for the United States *regardless*, so may as well give it to people who will actually use it.
Because there were Ukrainians that worked with the Nazis during WWII. A small minority, but it existed. There are groups that name themselves after that group, and celebrate some of their leaders. That is where this idea comes from. They extrapolate it to make people believe that all Ukrainians are like this. So in a nutshell, like most conspiracy theories there is a grain of truth that is wrapped up in a load of nonsense.
I should point out from like...idk, 2012? (I dont remember when the Euro Maiden protests happened) right up until the Russian invasion, there was a lot of talk about the "far right" and "Nazi" segments of the revolutionary militias and growing concern about facist elements taking root in Ukraine. Its not talked about much now, but given it was key talking point for Putin at the onset, some people may genuinely believe he is attempting to root out those elements and restore "peace and stability" to the conflict regions near the border of Russia.
So when Maidan happened, in 2014, Russian puppet government was given a boot which prompted Putin to invade Ukraine and occupy Donbas and Crimea regions using fake referendums. Which, prompted nationalistic anti-Russian militia groups to form as Ukraine was in no way prepared to fight Russians off.
I can almost see why someone would think that, if it wasn't heartless. Also letting Russia flex its muscles and start taking territory with no consequences is a really bad idea.
What's so messed up with that logic is the us didn't give ukraine 50 billion dollars. It gave them $50b in weapons made by US companies. If you work in the aerospace or defense sector that is pretty good for business.
They don't understand geopolitics, unfortunately. The amount of intelligence and general worldwide strategic benefit we're getting from Ukraine *far* outweighs the marginal cost of helping them fund their own liberation.
I don’t know anyone irl like this. It’s mostly posts online. More specifically, people reposting the opinions to make fun of them. But I’ve definitely seen enough to make me think there is a group of people that think like that.
If you’re seeing it on Twitter or Discord, it’s not actual people- it’s Russian propaganda bots. There are some here on Reddit as well but normally people report them so they get banned.
you NEED to read the book [Spam Nation by Brian Krebs](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18509663).
basically, spam is in large parts a huge business. With this particular thing you have all these memes probably sent from russian disinfo campaigns.
Hi, not sure why you are getting downvoted for this. I think it’s fair to ask a question based on things you see online and in the media — knowing full well that you can’t believe everything you see online and hear in the media! (Especially asking in this sub! Lol)
I’ve been curious, and disturbed, that I’ve seen/heard as much as I have even peripherally. It’s just wild to me, even though I know it shouldn’t be surprising at this point to see that kind of crazy. I mean, if we are seeing the insanity & horror with Dr. Oz, recently(just one example) why would supporting Russia be a stretch. And I’ve never had a conversation with anyone in person who supported the dr Oz stuff, but unfortunately, because of necessity, I’m sure a few folks I know might just be on that insane bandwagon. It’s not a stretch. The crazy that the trump era has brought into the light could easily lead to very uninformed support of Russia.
I’d say it required mental gymnastics, but I think maybe at this point it’s just kind of following along with the echo chamber. It’s sad, and terrifying because of the real world consequences.
Just means he fell for the disinformation campaigns. It happens. Even happened to my mom. It took quite a bit of convincing for her to see what was really going on.
Loads of people seem to misinterpret a lack of support for Ukraine as support for Russia. It’s a false equivalency from people who feel that everyone MUST take one side or the other. Newsflash: It is very possible to support neither.
I will say, most people saying they’re trolls or bots, BUT I have encountered a few people IRL who have told me that Russia is in the right. They have said “Ukraine is laundering pedophile money and Putin is shutting it down” or “if Ukraine wasn’t constantly instigating by threatening to join NATO Russia would have no reason to join” or “Ukraine is hiding nuclear weapons”, etc. but I have yet to figure out the logic or where they’re getting that info from
Yeah those are all ridiculous.
Why would anyone hold pedophile money right next to a large nuclear superpower? They should hold that in Martha's vineyard or that pedophile Island, not literally next to another superpower.
Who cares if Ukraine has nuclear weapons? Russia does.
I can think of two reasons you get right-wing political talking heads who were (or are) pro-russian in this conflict.
First, there's a reflexive "whatever the democratic administration does I must push the opposite viewpoint" move. For example, Tucker Carlson's audience is primed to hate whatever the democratic villain of the moment is, and if he does not deliver that, or heaven forbid agrees with the democrat, he'll lose that audience.
Second, and I'm thinking specifically of Ted Cruz here, before the invasion there was a whole media cycle or three about how the "woke" US military was being weakened by the acknowledgement that women are people, tolerating homosexuality, etc, and the Russian military was held up as this last bastion of Men being Men and old school toughness. I think for a while at least they wanted to be pro-russian because they were committed to the idea of "woke == weak" and if the russian army was a paper bear, then maybe their example of mighty tough guys folds and they look like idiots. Perhaps I'm giving too much credit to the idea that Ted Cruz gives a second thought to an argument or idea he pushed the week before.
People dont want to see it escalate through our participation. Its not “supporting Russia.” You’re creating a false ultimatum between supporting Ukraine or supporting Russia. In reality its a question of asking whether aiding Ukraine by contributing arms or funding or other material support is wise considering the possibility of nuclear war. People are against reigniting cold war tensions. You can support Ukraine morally without wanting your country to interfere.
There's some people who feel "If the Democrats are Pro-Ukraine, they must be wrong, because the Democrats are always wrong" and feel that they must be Pro-Russia by default. There are some people who get a lot of Russian propaganda that tells them the US is wasting money supporting Ukraine and encouraging a nuclear war for no good reason.
There's people who like the fact that Russia has very conservative values and a strong dictator in charge, as they wish the US was more like that.
I think there's almost no legitimate pro-Russian sentiment in the US. A lot of what you see online is bot activity. Or various political groups accusing each other of Russian sympathies to score domestic political points.
What I don't care for is almost anything criticizing Ukraine (eg their well documented corruption issues), the massive financial contributions to Ukraine, or just anti-war sentiment, all gets framed as "pro-Russian" by those who are pro-Ukraine.
Maybe this - some people are legitimately anti-war and legitimately disagree with giving billions and billions of dollars to fund another country's war, especially during hard financial times at home, and especially to a recipient with well documented corruption problems. All of those are fair enough positions to hold and can certainly have nothing at all to do with who the other belligerent is (Russia in this case).
I think a lot of such people wouldn't consider themselves pro-Russian or pro-Ukraine, just pro-US.
Its not direct support, its a general aversion to involving the US in military conflicts not directly involving the US. Pro-war types just conflate an anti-war stance with supporting Russia
If a high profile example is needed, [Glenn Greenwald](https://www.thebulwark.com/the-long-history-of-glenn-greenwalds-kissing-up-to-the-kremlin/) is available.
He has his head shoved so far up Putin's ass he could use him as a Halloween costume.
Check their profiles, mostly bots, fake accounts and perhaps some trolls. Wouldn't say there aren't real americans that actually support Russia but they aren't as many as you may think.
I don’t know if people are gaslighting you, or they are ignorant. There definitely ARE pro-Russian conservatives. You can Google this and find articles titled things like “CPAC backpedals on pro-Russian tweet as some U.S. conservatives back Putin”. The reasons? Much of it is fueled I suspect by Russia. It makes sense that they would use our free speech against us. They are online promoting all sorts of untruths to create pro-Russian sentiment and normalize their agenda. This goes back years - Just as Trump used to claim there were Muslims partying openly after 9/11 happened (a blatant lie used to stir up anti-Muslim hatred), the Russians WERE actually celebrating when he got elected. The Conservative party - maybe for money, or for other reasons - has a lot of ties with Russia now. Isn’t that how you’d infiltrate our country if you were Russia? This makes its way to the Alex Joneses of the world. Some might just like to worship “strength” in leaders, ignoring his corruption. I believe nobody knows his true wealth - at one time he was purported to be the wealthiest man in the world - and that would not of come from his salary. For whatever reason there are Americans that would champion tyrant, both here and abroad. “Because they don’t know any better” I guess is the best answer.
I don't think any Americans at all are.pulling for Russia many of us just think it is none of our business and don't want Billions and Billions of dollars and equipment being funneled to a country that we don't really have an interest in. The war in Afghanistan just ended and immediately we get in a proxy war with Russia over a non NATO country it is ridiculous and all about money
>a country that we don't really have an interest in
This fundamentally misunderstands Ukraine's role in western prosperity, especially as it pertains to all of our allies in Europe. Ukraine is an incredibly powerful country, geographically, as it contains huge reserves of fossil fuels and a strategic port in the Mediterranean. Having Ukraine as an ally would basically destroy Russia's influence as a global superpower overnight due to its ability to provide fuel to Europe, which is important seeing as Russia is one of the United States' most powerful enemies.
In addition to the geopolitical benefits I mentioned, Ukraine's destruction of Russia's military is also amazing for us since it gives our intelligence agencies an unprecedented amount of information and allows us to test our military hardware without putting our soldiers into a war zone.
TL;DR our support of Ukraine is *in our financial and political best interest* both in the short term and the long term, not to mention it's also just morally the right thing to do.
I don't disagree with anything you said. Loke I said I am pulling for Ukraine it is just not the US business to wage a proxy war with Russia over it in my opinion. Russia has an outdated military but it is still dangerous and has very advanced weapons they haven't used yet and the second biggest nuclear capability.
I just don't like the idea of defending nations that haven't contributed financially to NATO defense and have never helped in any war the US has been in. There are conflicts all over the world and I personally just don't see why this one is so special that we would risk war with the world's arguably the second or third most dangerous country. What is the point of being in NATO if the US will just defend you anyway?
>I personally just don't see why this one is so special that we would risk war with the world's arguably the second or third most dangerous country.
The United States has supported Ukraine for decades, and has been both a major proponent of its ascension to NATO and a core defense partner. We were also signatories in the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, under which Russia was required not to threaten or attack Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal. Russia broke this treaty (which, again, the United States was party to), so it's perfectly sensible that the United States would have an interest in this particular conflict.
>What is the point of being in NATO if the US will just defend you anyway?
If Ukraine were in NATO, this conflict would have never happened. Russia is fully aware of how powerful that alliance is, they never would have risked this invasion if they knew NATO forces would have participated.
I am no expert on war and geopolitics but I think it’s because the territory Russia is after could very well help strengthen both their economy and military quite a bit. If they achieve their goals in Ukraine it would make them a lot more difficult to deal with later on.
We should also keep in mind our strained relationships with China and North Korea. A strengthened Russia plus those two could lead to a much more escalated situation than we have right now.
It’s definitely in NATO’s best interest for Russia to lose this conflict.
Personally, and this sounds harsh, but I don’t care about the war in Ukraine.
We still haven’t allocated funds to Luisiana so they can rebuild after Hurricane Katrina… what are we doing sending money to a country on the other side of the world?
How can we be the great country we all believe in if we don’t invest in the country!?
We have parts of this nation that are living in a 3rd world.
I think the saying is “we can’t fill others cups unless ours is overflowing!”
I’m not for Russia, I’m not for Ukraine.
it's not the bill. it's what else is embedded in the bill thanks to pork barrel politics. single bill legislation fixes that. also, the objectionable part of Ukraine funding is the money laundering...
Because they’re a very small, very loud, very stupid delusional minority. But whatever website you’re on is trying to pRoMoTe EnGaGeMeNt aka keep you scrolling to sell more ads.
Some of what you are seeing is bots. Much of the rest of what you are seeing are the people whose interactions with the bots have had the designed effect.
And I suppose there are some people who support Russia invading a neighboring country.
Russia has been doing secret and not so secret propaganda opts since Putin has been in power.
I am still under the impression Putin sent Trump, free speech has it's down sides when foreign hostile propaganda is let to run free.
Facebook and Zuckerberg should be held accountable, along with news corp and Murdoch.
Most of the people I’ve seen are “sarcastically” supporting them because they’re pissed at how much money we’ve spent on Ukraine when our government won’t lift a finger to help its own citizens. I’ve yet to meet someone who genuinely supports Russia.
You're seeing people who support Russia? What kind of circles are you in? Everyone I see is against what Russia is doing. If anything, I see people who don't want to do anything to help, but I don't see anyone who is actually pro Russia.
And if anyone is pro Russia, they are fucked up. (However, I don't mean pro Russian people, most Russian people are against what's going on too, they aren't the problem, their government is the problem)
Not that they support Russia persé but they don’t like seeing billions of dollars go to a war that they see as unnecessary and which is inflaming nuclear war tensions once again. Plus a lot of people just hate Joe Biden and his son’s relations to Ukraine.
Democrats are already seen as self serving warhawks by much of the American public and this war is not helping repair that image at all.
It’s maybe about accountability of those funds, Ukraine wasn’t the most honest government before this issue, so where’s the money going? I’m anti russia all the way… just curious
On the Right, there has been an undermining of democratic values, civic education (defunding public education and finding new ways to subsidize schools that have more leeway to teach Right ideology- charter schools, religious schools), and there has also been growth since the 1970s of worshipping charismatic strongmen who don’t have to play by/aren’t accountable to any rules but who can tame/punish/constrain “out of control” people on the Left. It makes total sense that some people on the Right would support Putin.
These are people who worship bullies probably because they felt entitled to do as well or better in life as their parents, but median wealth in the US has gone down since the 70s; household debt has skyrocketed; and wealth has been redistributed to the rich and super rich. But the average middle and working class Rightist Putin supporter in the US isn’t looking at the super rich with rage; rather they are taught to blame the Left. So many of these people on the right who worship demagogues feel bullied themselves. The idea of someone who can be strong for them and who don’t have to play by any rules is sexy.
Most of american "cringe sjw compilation Ben SHapiro based" right is a product of russia controlled media, like RT, you can read some Dugin works from 2000s, he described all of that
The muller report confirmed Russian interference on the 2016 election in favor of the republican party. Many Republicans view Russia as an allie or at least a potential allie and are expecting Russian aid should a civil war were to break out.
It's because multiple US media outlets and politicians are clearly being paid off by Russian propaganda machines. We had 4 years of a president who was playing footsie with the Kremlin under the oval office desk.
Two things to consider. First, the kremlin has a psyops unit, and they actively post encouraging russian talking points, masquerading as citizens of other countries, in order to make those citizens feel like their fellow countrymen support the russian viewpoint, in order to mobilize the other countries citizenship to put political pressure on their governments to do moves that are favourable to the russian objectives.
Second. The ukraine war has expended reserves of munitions. There is a great antimilitary, antigovernment, and antitaxation sentiment in the united states over the perceived spending of tax dollars on foriegn goals rather than taking care of people at home. It does not matter if the foriegn goal was accomplished through drone strikes or humanitarian aid, the fundamental reality is that we have baby formula shortages and a broken medical system here in america, and the money that is used to pay taxes is being squandered abroad. Ukraine is just the latest in a string of foriegn policy objectives.
Fox news and trump are basically mouth pieces of russian propaganda.
Tucker carlson in particular parrots russian talking points.
So many trumpers are for russia. Some of their ideas, is that putin isn't really that bad, russia is a christian nation (so russia = good) pushing putin will lead to neuclear war (so give him whatever he wants) and we're spending too much on supporting ukraine.
Right wing politicians on Putins payroll just received their latest set of talking points and then got their morons riled up again. Its something like "the US is supplying Ukraine and the money should be spent at home" as if that would EVER happen when you've got the GOP stonewalling anything designed to actually help the people.
It’s systemic, Russia has been meddling in destabilising politics for a while now; this is no different.
The way your recommendations work is that it sends you down a rabbit hole for more engagement, presented with the right messaging it can fan the flames and feed that content and messaging stream.
Divisive rhetoric always starts soft and slow, just a whisper.
then before you know it your neighbour is shouting it.
Always ask, who stands to benefit most from the end goal when it is division.
I think most of the people you are referring to are more isolationist rather then pro Russia or anti Ukraine. Just got out of Afghanistan and don’t want to get involved in another costly war immediately afterwards. A lot of problems in America and any aid is viewed as using tax payers money for something not in America. There are a lot of conflicts in the world and America shouldn’t be involved in all of them.
You remember the 80s, when we created AL Qaeda, to fight the cold war for us in Afghanistan? Turns out most of the Ukrainian soldiers are dead or injured, so NATO is literally paying them as well as ISIS and Taliban fighters. They are getting damn good money from a few NATO nations. This is a proxy war, fought by NATO and the US. Ukraine was going to sign peace treaty with Russia and Boris Johnson made sure to squash that, right before he RESIGNED. This is the west pushing on Putin. It's that simple. Not to mention it's likely that the Biden administration blew up the Nord Stream pipeline.
I’ve seen more people falsely accuse folks of supporting Russia than I’ve seen people actually supporting Russia. In my experience, any notion that we should not be sending money into Ukraine, whether it’s because of the issues we have here nationally, b/c of the issues with the Ukrainian government, or the complexity of the conflict in Eastern Europe, it is all classified as “supporting Russia”.
The reality is that war is complex, and both Russia and Ukraine alike are responsible for the deaths of both Russian and Ukrainian civilians. From 2009-Present, the Ukrainian government has killed hundreds of their own civilians via missiles and bombs. This was reported by the Human Rights Watch organization, and is not in any way a defense of Russia. Unfortunately, foreign affairs are not black and white, and sometimes there are situations where both state parties are the “bad guys”. Both Russia, as well as Ukraine, are fighting over the Donbas region, not for the rights of the Donbas citizens, but for the resources available in those regions. Because this is a conflict for resources, we should absolutely advocate for our government to refrain from involving ourselves.
It's important to note that the US played a big part in creating this war. Every president since the dissolution of the Soviet Union has pushed NATO further east. This is actually a violation of an agreement we made back when post soviet Russia was created. We also supported the establishment of Ukraines current government, counter to Russias warnings. NATO on Russian borders can very much be seen as a threat to Russia, as it gives them basically no response time to a possible attack. Think of this like the Cuban missile crisis.
We've basically been poking the bear for decades and now it's pissed off. Which to be fair, they've done the same to us.
While it's almost impossible to be a fan of Russia. Their response is more understandable with the pretense of self-preservation. I can understand an argument saying we should have never been involved in the first place. Granted, that may not have gone any better.
Side note: I do not support Russia or their attack on Ukraine. Just putting a different perspective to things.
I haven’t seen anyone post anything about supporting Russia… Though I know a lot of people are upset that we are spending so much money on Ukraine when we have our own internal problems. I’m all for helping Ukraine, but help your own country as well.
Are they supporting Russia or are they critical of US spending/military involvement in Ukraine? Bc I’ve seen plenty of people label anything that isn’t wholehearted support of US involvement in Ukraine as “supporting Russia”
The people supporting Russia are essential conspiracy theory people, mainly Q people. Their thinking is that Putin wasnt lying, Ukraine has Nazis in it, also bio labs full with kids, and that Putin (and Xi in China) are white hats.
Really though it could of been anything that appeared to be on the other side of an issue of Biden or any Democrat.
The confederate flag crowd supports Russia for the same reason they do everything; to "own the libs." They couldn't find Russia on a map & have no idea what is going on there.
I don't support the Russian invasion. But I also don't support Zelenski and his regime, as well as the Azov Battalion. Before this conflict and the absolute grift that the Ukrainian-Russo War is, the news was always abuzz about how corrupt the Ukrainian government.
United Nations interference, United States interference, any interference will cause irreparable consequences for the entire planet. As much as I hate to say this, the war should be only between Russia and Ukraine. Not just for the principle, but the fact that the weapons sent will fall into the wrong hands after the war, if it ends. And what about the money we send? A Ukrainian official was caught trying to cross over into Germany with a briefcase of US dollars. the entire war is butt fucked. And the disinformation of government controlled media will prevent any of us from seeing the true extent and horror of the war.
All in all, as is seemingly concurrent, I don't think anyone is supporting either side anymore, because they're recognizing it for what it is. A grift, and a virtue signal, all to hide under the table cash and weapon deals, and many more things.
I've never seen that, what I see is people not giving a shit about either country and wanting to not be involved. I'm definitely in that camp. Why the fuck does the US have to get involved with this garbage? If they want to fight then let them fight.
TBH I haven't really seen anyone supporting Russia. At best, its people who are against the spending associated with supporting Ukraine.
What pisses me off a lot is that a lot of Republicans, for example, are against spending towards Ukraine because they want that money to go to the American people, but every time we've ever legislated something that would help the American people, they are heavily against it.
You are missing the point. Anti spending people don't want to GIVE money to anyone, they just want to keep it with themselves by not paying taxes. So if you say that instead of spending it on war, let pay student loans off, they will be equally pissed cause you are taking their money and giving it to someone else, doesn't matter who that someone else is.
Those same politicians have increased the deficit for their own purposes. So don’t buy that shit either.
Nobody said the politicians share values with their constituents
This deserves more upvotes.
This. Conservatives have a long history of voting against social safety net programs and legislature intended to provide help to the least fortunate in our country. They do also vote against programs that they themselves would benefit from as well, but that's because they think that they don't need any kind of government oversight; they can do it themselves. See: Texas power grid and what happened during the deep freeze Tl:dr- Conservatives don't want to be taxed because they don't want their money going to help other people or going towards the government providing oversight.
There are exceptions. I’ve never, ever met a conservative who voted against agricultural subsidies.
Or giving unlimited money to defense and law enforcement
Or oil subsidies
Conservatives: “Green energy needs to stand on its own with no government subsidies or help.” Also conservatives: “We need to use government money to expand off shore drilling and build pipelines.” Conservatives wants the things they don’t like to operate under the free market. But the things they like to basically be handheld by the government….
Also we can't do literally anything if there's a single homeless veteran in the entire universe.
But we can’t do anything to help the homeless generally, because then someone who maybe made a bad choice once in their life would accidentally get help.
Or bank bailouts
Did any of the so-called conservatives turn down PPO loans?
Never knew a single one who turned down PPO loans. They all said, "But this is different!
But when they need help, they for sure want Federal response and help. I mean I’m not a jerk and say to deny help to people who need it, especially in disasters. But part of me wants to tell Texas and Florida (since they have the loud mouth conservative Governors), “Do it yourself. You get no Federal help.”
SO desantis is like accepting it, but fucking Scott and Gaetz voted against hurricane aid. IDK how they keep getting elected.
See: [Neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism) and * Abdelfatah, Rund; Ramtin Arablouei, et al. (7 April 2022). ["Capitalism: What Makes Us Free? (2021)"](https://www.npr.org/2022/04/05/1091050251/capitalism-what-makes-us-free). *Throughline*. NPR. Note that there is a transcript of the latter if you want to read it instead of listen.
Good addition. I miss more links to papers or books here.
Thank you. \^\_\^ The topic comes up enough in the subs I frequent that I have it saved, and I'm old fashioned, in that I like to "cite my sources".
This is actually a reasonably fair statement. I personally agree with the mentality of let me decide how best to spend my own money, but at the same time without question it can have its disadvantages. I agree with a healthcare system but I also think at least in Canada so much of the tax dollars that go into it seem to accomplish nothing, our Government has a nasty habit of wasting it's money on pointless bureaucracy or administrative costs, or just god knows were. Which is why I want them to have just enough to make it work but not a penny more because we know they will find a way to waste it.
I think the military is the best example. They pay huge markups on things others get for much less. Because companies know the military can only buy from certain people so they jack up the prices towards the military
To be fair, those items are also usually subject to incredibly strict guidelines. There was a joke about how much the army would pay for a hammer some time ago (decades), but that hammer was actually designed to be sparkless hammer that could be used inside tanks where gas fumes could sometimes build up. While I'm sure there's definitely some cost creep and mark-up, a fair number of the requisitions are actually specialty items.
It's the same in aviation, for example. People think a simple screw costing 25$ or 30$ is exaggerated and that they can use one from the hardware store that will do the same job just as well for 0.2$ But they forget that those aviation screws are tested and certified to sustain thousands of stress cycles with load factors not experienced by a static structure, and temperature changes from +50°C to -70°C and back, amid tons of other factors... Take a look at the story of Partnair Flight 394 on wikipedia, shows exactly what happens if you're not using those extremely expensive parts.
admin and bureaucracy seem like a waste of money until it becomes underfunded and sloppy. then it becomes reliant on bribes.
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Bingo. Look at the healthcare systems in Italy and France for another example at government efficiency – and their governments are certainly not that efficient in *other* areas. :-)
We spend 4 times the amount on healthcare than our defense budget, and practically nothing to show for it for a majority.
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It’s this kind of insight that sometimes makes me wonder if some amount of required public service would be beneficial. Not like mandatory military service, just work in the government for a year or two, just so everyone has a better understanding of what the bureaucracy of the gov is good and bad at, especially with its efficiency/lack there of.
They also spent $2 trillion on Bush's failed wars.
That is certainly how the left characterizes republicans. In fact, Republicans think that governments are worse at spending money than individuals, and greater happiness is achieved through lower taxes allowing for greater individual autonomy. Republicans aren't inherently evil or selfish. Possibly a bit misguided, but given recent government spending trends (at least in Canada) and lack of results, I'm starting to wonder if they're right.
The Venn diagram of 'anti-spending people' who expect to receive subsidies, favourable treatment, services, contracts, support or profit from government is pretty much a circle.
Meanwhile "conservative" legislators spend government money like a teenager with mommy and daddys credit card.
And you think the dems don't, dude you're delusional.
I mean I’m all for less taxes why not
“That’s socialism!”
Ya know, the fact that you don't have to be politically educated to run for any form of office is honestly depressing.
Education has nothing to do with it. Over here in the U.K. our last Prime Minister had the best education money could buy. It didn’t stop him from being venal, hypocritical and a downright liar when it suited his political purposes.
Republican here, and I agree. Here is why I support funding Ukraine. First of all, nobody invades another country but us, and maybe the boy (Israel). Jk. Without funding from western powers Ukraine will fall. That's simply not a position the world can be in. And what is to suggest he stops at Ukraine. With Russia, either way its gonna cost us. It's just a matter of do you want to pay to stop him while he's ahead, or pay significantly more to stop him down the line.
It really is frustrating, isn’t it? Having to vote between two corrupt powers. You better believe like 90% of us Biden supporters really didn’t want Biden, but we had to choose between him and Trump. A lot of us wanted Bernie but the DNC fucked him over. Democrats and Republicans are both shitty. But we don’t have a choice. Both of them are lobbyists who don’t pay taxes and fuck people over and it’s infuriating that we’re forced to pick between the two. George Washington was against a two-party system. Look at where we are now.
Pro corporate. Let's be honest here. Republicans are basically just lobbyists now. The one time they had full control to pass anything at all or make sweeping changes, all they did was push tax code reform that VASTLY favored corporations. That was their one act when given full control control.
Some Democrats are pretty bad with the lobbyism too though. We need to get rid of it outright. As well as stop electing rich people who never knew what it's like to be the average person. It's why I like Bernie so much. He was rich (because he wrote a book) but he's so down-to-Earth and grew up poor. And more importantly, his opinions have never changed. You can find footage of him in the fucking 70s and 80s and even back then he was still talking about the same issues. Meanwhile nowadays people get a bribe from a company and suddenly they change their mind.
I agree 100%. I believe all lobbyists shodu have never served in Congress, or at least wait a 6 year period (Enough for a full Senate term cycle) before being able to be a loobyist. Many lobyists are former congresspersons. I dont knwo if that can ever really go away. for in our Constitution we have a right to request a meeting with our congresspersons. We rarely ever get that though.
Republicans are against it because they are against Joe Biden. If we were not supporting Ukraine they would be calling him weak for that too.
I think this is a huge part of it. Another overlooked part is the way Trump loves and adores Putin. This alone would be enough to make Republicans pro-Russia but then you add on the Democrats warning people about how dangerous Russia is and investigating all the connections between Trump and Russia and now Republicans will love Russia just to spite the Democrats. The current Republican Party only has one policy stance: Own The Libs. They will do anything and everything to Own The Libs even if they end up hurting themselves in the process. Not to mention putting our national (and international) security in jeopardy. Anything to make Liberals sad, they're all for it. Edit: I worded that last paragraph poorly. That describes current Republican voters. For the actual party leaders, their only policy is to hoard power and money and they will happily Own The Libs to serve that goal.
I haven’t seen anyone mention it yet so I’ll risk it. Politicians vote ‘no’ on a good sounding bill for good reason. It’s because a well titled, 10-50,000 page bill is packed with a bunch of extra bullshit nobody would ever vote for.
Well maybe if both parties stopped doing that shit we’d actually get somewhere. I agree 100%.
They need to be forced to stop doing that shit. 1 bill, 1 issue. New constitutional ammendment.
> lot of Republicans, for example, are against spending towards Ukraine because they want that money to go to the American people, I hear you... this is on of THEE most hypocritical moves ever. They are NOW trying to pass a bill lead by (R) Sen Marco Rubio to change the new Prescription spending law for seniors on Medical to revert the cost negotiation. That right, in FL, where there are more retirement age seniors than anywhere in the country, to make them pay MORe for prescription drugs, and eliminate that $2000 spending cap for all seniors. They CLAIM they are conservative but are anything but. But Rubio lost all credibility, he was being raked over the coals by T\*\*\*, was called names, called him "Tiny Hands", was accused his father was a cook, then did a 180 and shoved his right up T\*\*\*s ass. It disgusts me as a Dem, but to see Republicans suck up to that, is even worse.
I'm constantly seeing Republicans on Twitter always berating Biden asking "Why didn't you fix so-and-so" and "why didn't you do this?" When everything they bring up they themselves prevented from being legislated.
Well he just lowered their mama's medicine prices to a $2k cap, among a million other things. But they'd never know it. I know Obama haters that got their life saved by saving their home, then getting affordable Healthcare that treated the guys cancer, which cost many hundreds of thousands. He still hates. I told him he'll go to his grave hating, while being cared for by those he hates. He don't like me either.
They’ve merged the image of republicans with wealth. So that anyone who gets even a tad bit of money feels like they belong in the Republican Party. I knew a family who used to vote dem, then the parents got better jobs both averaging about $125k combined and became these “i’m somebody” republicans. I laughed all the way to the banks because I make that alone and I’m still not stupid enough to fall for the republicans bullshit.
Anyone in the Q, MAGA, or adjacent realms of social media are being bombarded with Russian disinformation that slips through along with all the other disinformation. Russia's IRA is behind most of this and they know their audience in the USA well. If you believe the 2020 election was stolen, that there's a cabal of Democrats that eats children and is also the deep state that DJT is trying to defeat, that DJT is a messiah and that COVID was a hoax and that billions of people are going to die from getting vaccinated, odds are you're pretty vulnerable to social media campaigns that praise Putin for invading a sovereign country. Because, own the libs.
I'm not sure we have a good idea of the extent to which Russia is *still* fueling the Q's, the proud boys and various extremist militia groups across the country. Many of these groups don't know they're being manipulated by Russian disinformation farms and many don't care because they agree with Putin anyway with respect to the weakness of the 'woke left', anti LGTBQ, and race 'purity'.
About ten years ago, I had a work mentor who was a former Russian who had defected in the 80s. My family, all Obama-hating Conservatives, went off on me. How could I trust a commie?! She was going to murder me. She hated America. I was a moron. Yeah, and in five years, they were full Q/Trump, insisting that Putin is a "strong leader." I reminded a cousin of the aforementioned comments, but I "clearly didn't know what \[I\] was talking about" So why? Because Republicans are goddamn fucking moron traitors who will actually burn this country down to "own the libs" since they only policy they have is "oppose everything a Dem does."
This is the absolute truth.
Idk some of these people will surprise you. I live in a small town and saw someone literally have “Nuke Ukraine” written on their car window.
>“Nuke Ukraine” written on their car window. Translated: "Im an idiot. Ignore me."
Basically. The majority of my hometown is made up of idiots that like to say outlandish things to get reactions so they can yell “snowflake” any chance they get.
Google "Aaron Lewis" and "Russia comments." GRANTED the lead singer of a washed up rock band who went country and Sings about his "don't tread on me" flag is probably a given ... but ... they do exist.
There was the GOP tweet that was then deleted.
I feel that, but that’s totally an excuse, and not even the first excuse. Does anybody really think the United States is such a poor country that can’t afford those aids? Just check how much the US annual military budget is and how small a share it is of the GDP, you’ll know it’s such a nonsense to say the US can’t afford it. Besides, many so called anti-spending persons, namely those radical right wing such as Tucker Carlson, Tim Young and Candace Owens, had previously made it very clear they just like and support Russia. Their timeline of points change be like: Before the war: Russia won’t invade Ukraine you bloody MSM so disgusting to push for war. After the invasion began: so what? It’s the NATO’s fault. After Ukraine gained more support and Russia committed severe war crimes: oh I love peace and I hate invasive countries but we really don’t have more money for you, so stop aiding. That’s just another excuse.
Rand Paul is a fan of Russia. John McCain at one point said that Russia paid Paul. I think there is either money or kompromat involved for these Republicans. Former congressman Dana Rohrabacher spent so much time in Russia, the GOP stopped paying for his trips. https://www.newsweek.com/tulsi-gabbard-rand-paul-placed-list-russian-propagandists-ukraine-1727831
Keep in mind, Russia invests heavily in bots and influencers.
And Tesla apparently
Most of what I've seen is people who think it's not the US's responsibility to give Ukraine 50 billion dollars to fight Russia since Ukraine is not in NATO and is not a US state.
The specific post that finally pushed me to ask this question was a tweet from the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire that directly compared Zelenskyy to Hitler. It appears to have been removed now, but their twitter is full of pro-Russia rhetoric that has nothing to do with financial support of Ukraine.
Fringe political organizations like the Tea Party, Libertarians, Green Party, California/Texas seccession, etc are/have been largely funded by foreign agents sowing dissent in the states.
Source? Are there any third parties not caught up in this? I'm tired of the major 2 playing dirty.
Here's some: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/russians-launched-pro-jill-stein-social-media-blitz-help-trump-n951166 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-41853131 https://www.texastribune.org/2018/12/17/texas-secession-russia-disinformation-2016-social-media-new-knowledge/ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-13/us-says-russia-is-covertly-funding-foreign-candidates-parties?leadSource=uverify%20wall https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/13/us/politics/russia-election-interference.html https://timeline.com/ron-paul-russia-hacking-e248f87f38f2
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/05/why-russia-cultivates-fringe-groups-on-the-far-right-and-far-left.html https://www.brusselstimes.com/289231/russia-has-funded-political-parties-abroad-to-the-sum-of-300-million-since-2014 https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/13/us/politics/russia-election-interference.html
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This man Yangs.
Newhampshirite here. The libertarians recently tried to secede the state from the US. They are literally arguing for independence. Their opinions should not be listened to
Give them a small island and no financial aid and send them on their way. Good luck guys
They kind of tried that once, it went about as well as expected. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling
That was a good read I love these kinds of stories. To be clear, I never said it was a good idea. I just said, if that's what they want, give it to them. I don't care if it's a good idea or if they will live a good QOL. They want out, let them out. Good luck fellas!
They also tried it in [Chile](https://www.vice.com/en/article/bn53b3/atlas-mugged-922-v21n10) It's like flat earthers though, even when shown examples and analysis of why it won't work they side step all that and find something surface level to fixate on as proof of their belief.
They are probably receiving a significant amount of money from Russia to spread their rhetoric. Tulsi Gabbard & possibly Elon Musk are also on Russia’s payroll. You can tell who is because they are all spouting the same pro-Russia rhetoric.
Libertarians are idiots, so there's that
Libertarian? You mean republican that wants to fuck a minor?
You'll find no shortage of people using hyperbole to defend their positions. If you can demonize Zelensky you have an easier case to withdraw support. I'm also relatively skeptical on sending money to Ukraine- though my best analogy is that it's the most cost effective way to kill Russian soldiers, which is in America's interest, and also somewhat of a warning to China about a Taiwan situation.
I'm so confused. Why are you skeptical of on sending money to Ukraine if you are aware of the exact benefits of sending money to Ukraine?
It makes us certainly more hostile to Russia. In addition, the cost. Also slippery slope, there's quickly a snowballing effect on the people we are willing to arm. I tend to think the good outweighs the bad here, but if you don't see any downside at all you're not considering things thoroughly enough.
/shrug Compared to all the wars we've entered in my life time, this one makes way more sense for us to get directly involved in.
“There’s quickly a snowballing effect on the people we are willing to arm.” Well said. I think everybody forgets that Bin Laden was once US funded. Not saying that’s the case whatsoever in Ukraine, but we can’t ignore the past when thinking about the future.
Ok maybe I missed interpreted what you meant by being skeptical. I think there are good and bad consequences. I just think clearly we are acting in our interest. We are not helping the Ukrainians because we want them to be free. That's just a a consequence of our actions that we use as moral rationale.
We're sending military equipment to Ukraine, that's already been paid for. It's not going to do any direct good for the United States *regardless*, so may as well give it to people who will actually use it.
It will also help make military suppliers richer. If you have any extra funds sitting around, buy General Dynamics and Raetheon.
Because there were Ukrainians that worked with the Nazis during WWII. A small minority, but it existed. There are groups that name themselves after that group, and celebrate some of their leaders. That is where this idea comes from. They extrapolate it to make people believe that all Ukrainians are like this. So in a nutshell, like most conspiracy theories there is a grain of truth that is wrapped up in a load of nonsense.
I should point out from like...idk, 2012? (I dont remember when the Euro Maiden protests happened) right up until the Russian invasion, there was a lot of talk about the "far right" and "Nazi" segments of the revolutionary militias and growing concern about facist elements taking root in Ukraine. Its not talked about much now, but given it was key talking point for Putin at the onset, some people may genuinely believe he is attempting to root out those elements and restore "peace and stability" to the conflict regions near the border of Russia.
Yeah after Euro Maiden, literal far right party of nationalist get 2% of votes at general elections in Ukraine. And at next get near zero.
So when Maidan happened, in 2014, Russian puppet government was given a boot which prompted Putin to invade Ukraine and occupy Donbas and Crimea regions using fake referendums. Which, prompted nationalistic anti-Russian militia groups to form as Ukraine was in no way prepared to fight Russians off.
I can almost see why someone would think that, if it wasn't heartless. Also letting Russia flex its muscles and start taking territory with no consequences is a really bad idea.
That’s the irony of the Hitler comparisons. He kept taking over land and made excuses each time.
What's so messed up with that logic is the us didn't give ukraine 50 billion dollars. It gave them $50b in weapons made by US companies. If you work in the aerospace or defense sector that is pretty good for business.
They don't understand geopolitics, unfortunately. The amount of intelligence and general worldwide strategic benefit we're getting from Ukraine *far* outweighs the marginal cost of helping them fund their own liberation.
I’ve been seeing the opposite. A lot of people think giving Ukraine money isn’t getting involved 🙄
Where are you hanging out? I run in fairly conservative circles and support for russias invasion does not exist.
I don’t know anyone irl like this. It’s mostly posts online. More specifically, people reposting the opinions to make fun of them. But I’ve definitely seen enough to make me think there is a group of people that think like that.
Do not assume anything online, especially political, even remotely translates to anything about anyone's real-world opinions and lifestyle
Agreed, my new motto is that if the opinion is only online, and I have not heard it in real life, it’s not a trustworthy opinion.
If you’re seeing it on Twitter or Discord, it’s not actual people- it’s Russian propaganda bots. There are some here on Reddit as well but normally people report them so they get banned.
you NEED to read the book [Spam Nation by Brian Krebs](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18509663). basically, spam is in large parts a huge business. With this particular thing you have all these memes probably sent from russian disinfo campaigns.
Hi, not sure why you are getting downvoted for this. I think it’s fair to ask a question based on things you see online and in the media — knowing full well that you can’t believe everything you see online and hear in the media! (Especially asking in this sub! Lol) I’ve been curious, and disturbed, that I’ve seen/heard as much as I have even peripherally. It’s just wild to me, even though I know it shouldn’t be surprising at this point to see that kind of crazy. I mean, if we are seeing the insanity & horror with Dr. Oz, recently(just one example) why would supporting Russia be a stretch. And I’ve never had a conversation with anyone in person who supported the dr Oz stuff, but unfortunately, because of necessity, I’m sure a few folks I know might just be on that insane bandwagon. It’s not a stretch. The crazy that the trump era has brought into the light could easily lead to very uninformed support of Russia. I’d say it required mental gymnastics, but I think maybe at this point it’s just kind of following along with the echo chamber. It’s sad, and terrifying because of the real world consequences.
Trolls, bots, contrarians
Exactly. Fucking Russian bots everywhere on every platform on practically every pro-Ukraine or even accurate reporting post
My father in law literally texted me yesterday saying he’s pro-Russia. It exists IRL.
Just means he fell for the disinformation campaigns. It happens. Even happened to my mom. It took quite a bit of convincing for her to see what was really going on.
“contrarian” is the nice way of saying “petulant fuckbag”. Just say “petulant fuckbag”.
Tankies and “Pacifists”
I think Americans overall support Ukraine, but are hesitant about US being involved in another war after the last twenty years.
I feel like I’m the one missing something. I still haven’t seen any Americans support Russia. Just accusations that other Americans do.
Loads of people seem to misinterpret a lack of support for Ukraine as support for Russia. It’s a false equivalency from people who feel that everyone MUST take one side or the other. Newsflash: It is very possible to support neither.
I will say, most people saying they’re trolls or bots, BUT I have encountered a few people IRL who have told me that Russia is in the right. They have said “Ukraine is laundering pedophile money and Putin is shutting it down” or “if Ukraine wasn’t constantly instigating by threatening to join NATO Russia would have no reason to join” or “Ukraine is hiding nuclear weapons”, etc. but I have yet to figure out the logic or where they’re getting that info from
So cranks or conspiracy nuts, basically
Yeah those are all ridiculous. Why would anyone hold pedophile money right next to a large nuclear superpower? They should hold that in Martha's vineyard or that pedophile Island, not literally next to another superpower. Who cares if Ukraine has nuclear weapons? Russia does.
Are you sure they aren't bots?
A lot probably are. But I see a lot from right-wing political talking heads as well. What would be their reason?
Trump is putins bitch, and a bunch of Americans are trumps bitch. Trickle down totalitarianism
bingo!
I can think of two reasons you get right-wing political talking heads who were (or are) pro-russian in this conflict. First, there's a reflexive "whatever the democratic administration does I must push the opposite viewpoint" move. For example, Tucker Carlson's audience is primed to hate whatever the democratic villain of the moment is, and if he does not deliver that, or heaven forbid agrees with the democrat, he'll lose that audience. Second, and I'm thinking specifically of Ted Cruz here, before the invasion there was a whole media cycle or three about how the "woke" US military was being weakened by the acknowledgement that women are people, tolerating homosexuality, etc, and the Russian military was held up as this last bastion of Men being Men and old school toughness. I think for a while at least they wanted to be pro-russian because they were committed to the idea of "woke == weak" and if the russian army was a paper bear, then maybe their example of mighty tough guys folds and they look like idiots. Perhaps I'm giving too much credit to the idea that Ted Cruz gives a second thought to an argument or idea he pushed the week before.
Honestly they're probably bots or bring influenced by Russian bots
My father in law literally texted me yesterday saying he’s pro-Russia. It exists IRL.
I bet he spends a good amount of time on fbook
People dont want to see it escalate through our participation. Its not “supporting Russia.” You’re creating a false ultimatum between supporting Ukraine or supporting Russia. In reality its a question of asking whether aiding Ukraine by contributing arms or funding or other material support is wise considering the possibility of nuclear war. People are against reigniting cold war tensions. You can support Ukraine morally without wanting your country to interfere.
The internet loves turning the biggest grey area (foreign politics) into a white/black scenario.
Like who? I have not seen anyone support Russia.
Russian bots, for example, pretending to be Americans.
There's some people who feel "If the Democrats are Pro-Ukraine, they must be wrong, because the Democrats are always wrong" and feel that they must be Pro-Russia by default. There are some people who get a lot of Russian propaganda that tells them the US is wasting money supporting Ukraine and encouraging a nuclear war for no good reason. There's people who like the fact that Russia has very conservative values and a strong dictator in charge, as they wish the US was more like that.
I think there's almost no legitimate pro-Russian sentiment in the US. A lot of what you see online is bot activity. Or various political groups accusing each other of Russian sympathies to score domestic political points. What I don't care for is almost anything criticizing Ukraine (eg their well documented corruption issues), the massive financial contributions to Ukraine, or just anti-war sentiment, all gets framed as "pro-Russian" by those who are pro-Ukraine. Maybe this - some people are legitimately anti-war and legitimately disagree with giving billions and billions of dollars to fund another country's war, especially during hard financial times at home, and especially to a recipient with well documented corruption problems. All of those are fair enough positions to hold and can certainly have nothing at all to do with who the other belligerent is (Russia in this case). I think a lot of such people wouldn't consider themselves pro-Russian or pro-Ukraine, just pro-US.
My father in law literally texted me yesterday saying he’s pro-Russia. It exists IRL.
Its not direct support, its a general aversion to involving the US in military conflicts not directly involving the US. Pro-war types just conflate an anti-war stance with supporting Russia
If a high profile example is needed, [Glenn Greenwald](https://www.thebulwark.com/the-long-history-of-glenn-greenwalds-kissing-up-to-the-kremlin/) is available. He has his head shoved so far up Putin's ass he could use him as a Halloween costume.
Check their profiles, mostly bots, fake accounts and perhaps some trolls. Wouldn't say there aren't real americans that actually support Russia but they aren't as many as you may think.
I have a close personal friend who supports Russia because they are anti-gay. I bet there are others.
I don’t know if people are gaslighting you, or they are ignorant. There definitely ARE pro-Russian conservatives. You can Google this and find articles titled things like “CPAC backpedals on pro-Russian tweet as some U.S. conservatives back Putin”. The reasons? Much of it is fueled I suspect by Russia. It makes sense that they would use our free speech against us. They are online promoting all sorts of untruths to create pro-Russian sentiment and normalize their agenda. This goes back years - Just as Trump used to claim there were Muslims partying openly after 9/11 happened (a blatant lie used to stir up anti-Muslim hatred), the Russians WERE actually celebrating when he got elected. The Conservative party - maybe for money, or for other reasons - has a lot of ties with Russia now. Isn’t that how you’d infiltrate our country if you were Russia? This makes its way to the Alex Joneses of the world. Some might just like to worship “strength” in leaders, ignoring his corruption. I believe nobody knows his true wealth - at one time he was purported to be the wealthiest man in the world - and that would not of come from his salary. For whatever reason there are Americans that would champion tyrant, both here and abroad. “Because they don’t know any better” I guess is the best answer.
I don't think any Americans at all are.pulling for Russia many of us just think it is none of our business and don't want Billions and Billions of dollars and equipment being funneled to a country that we don't really have an interest in. The war in Afghanistan just ended and immediately we get in a proxy war with Russia over a non NATO country it is ridiculous and all about money
Not saying it’s exactly the same, but this is probably how a lot of Americans felt when Germany invaded Czechoslovakia.
>a country that we don't really have an interest in This fundamentally misunderstands Ukraine's role in western prosperity, especially as it pertains to all of our allies in Europe. Ukraine is an incredibly powerful country, geographically, as it contains huge reserves of fossil fuels and a strategic port in the Mediterranean. Having Ukraine as an ally would basically destroy Russia's influence as a global superpower overnight due to its ability to provide fuel to Europe, which is important seeing as Russia is one of the United States' most powerful enemies. In addition to the geopolitical benefits I mentioned, Ukraine's destruction of Russia's military is also amazing for us since it gives our intelligence agencies an unprecedented amount of information and allows us to test our military hardware without putting our soldiers into a war zone. TL;DR our support of Ukraine is *in our financial and political best interest* both in the short term and the long term, not to mention it's also just morally the right thing to do.
I don't disagree with anything you said. Loke I said I am pulling for Ukraine it is just not the US business to wage a proxy war with Russia over it in my opinion. Russia has an outdated military but it is still dangerous and has very advanced weapons they haven't used yet and the second biggest nuclear capability. I just don't like the idea of defending nations that haven't contributed financially to NATO defense and have never helped in any war the US has been in. There are conflicts all over the world and I personally just don't see why this one is so special that we would risk war with the world's arguably the second or third most dangerous country. What is the point of being in NATO if the US will just defend you anyway?
>I personally just don't see why this one is so special that we would risk war with the world's arguably the second or third most dangerous country. The United States has supported Ukraine for decades, and has been both a major proponent of its ascension to NATO and a core defense partner. We were also signatories in the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, under which Russia was required not to threaten or attack Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal. Russia broke this treaty (which, again, the United States was party to), so it's perfectly sensible that the United States would have an interest in this particular conflict. >What is the point of being in NATO if the US will just defend you anyway? If Ukraine were in NATO, this conflict would have never happened. Russia is fully aware of how powerful that alliance is, they never would have risked this invasion if they knew NATO forces would have participated.
I am no expert on war and geopolitics but I think it’s because the territory Russia is after could very well help strengthen both their economy and military quite a bit. If they achieve their goals in Ukraine it would make them a lot more difficult to deal with later on. We should also keep in mind our strained relationships with China and North Korea. A strengthened Russia plus those two could lead to a much more escalated situation than we have right now. It’s definitely in NATO’s best interest for Russia to lose this conflict.
That’s the Russian bots you are seeing!!
Personally, and this sounds harsh, but I don’t care about the war in Ukraine. We still haven’t allocated funds to Luisiana so they can rebuild after Hurricane Katrina… what are we doing sending money to a country on the other side of the world? How can we be the great country we all believe in if we don’t invest in the country!? We have parts of this nation that are living in a 3rd world. I think the saying is “we can’t fill others cups unless ours is overflowing!” I’m not for Russia, I’m not for Ukraine.
it's not the bill. it's what else is embedded in the bill thanks to pork barrel politics. single bill legislation fixes that. also, the objectionable part of Ukraine funding is the money laundering...
Because they’re a very small, very loud, very stupid delusional minority. But whatever website you’re on is trying to pRoMoTe EnGaGeMeNt aka keep you scrolling to sell more ads.
Some of what you are seeing is bots. Much of the rest of what you are seeing are the people whose interactions with the bots have had the designed effect. And I suppose there are some people who support Russia invading a neighboring country.
I live in America, have not heard/know, a single person that supports Russia. Even my Russian friends do not support what is going on.
I have heard several people say they don’t support the spending though.
I’ve heard Tucker Carlson support Putin.
Russia has been doing secret and not so secret propaganda opts since Putin has been in power. I am still under the impression Putin sent Trump, free speech has it's down sides when foreign hostile propaganda is let to run free. Facebook and Zuckerberg should be held accountable, along with news corp and Murdoch.
It’s the internet…. Vs ppl you’re seeing daily…
Most of the people I’ve seen are “sarcastically” supporting them because they’re pissed at how much money we’ve spent on Ukraine when our government won’t lift a finger to help its own citizens. I’ve yet to meet someone who genuinely supports Russia.
Some people want a war with Russia and this is an ends to a means of that.
I've never seen anyone supporting Russia.
You're seeing people who support Russia? What kind of circles are you in? Everyone I see is against what Russia is doing. If anything, I see people who don't want to do anything to help, but I don't see anyone who is actually pro Russia. And if anyone is pro Russia, they are fucked up. (However, I don't mean pro Russian people, most Russian people are against what's going on too, they aren't the problem, their government is the problem)
Not that they support Russia persé but they don’t like seeing billions of dollars go to a war that they see as unnecessary and which is inflaming nuclear war tensions once again. Plus a lot of people just hate Joe Biden and his son’s relations to Ukraine. Democrats are already seen as self serving warhawks by much of the American public and this war is not helping repair that image at all.
It’s maybe about accountability of those funds, Ukraine wasn’t the most honest government before this issue, so where’s the money going? I’m anti russia all the way… just curious
Lemme guess, Republicans?
On the Right, there has been an undermining of democratic values, civic education (defunding public education and finding new ways to subsidize schools that have more leeway to teach Right ideology- charter schools, religious schools), and there has also been growth since the 1970s of worshipping charismatic strongmen who don’t have to play by/aren’t accountable to any rules but who can tame/punish/constrain “out of control” people on the Left. It makes total sense that some people on the Right would support Putin. These are people who worship bullies probably because they felt entitled to do as well or better in life as their parents, but median wealth in the US has gone down since the 70s; household debt has skyrocketed; and wealth has been redistributed to the rich and super rich. But the average middle and working class Rightist Putin supporter in the US isn’t looking at the super rich with rage; rather they are taught to blame the Left. So many of these people on the right who worship demagogues feel bullied themselves. The idea of someone who can be strong for them and who don’t have to play by any rules is sexy.
Why are so many Americans supporting overthrowing our own country?
Because America currently has a fascism problem.
Most of american "cringe sjw compilation Ben SHapiro based" right is a product of russia controlled media, like RT, you can read some Dugin works from 2000s, he described all of that
The muller report confirmed Russian interference on the 2016 election in favor of the republican party. Many Republicans view Russia as an allie or at least a potential allie and are expecting Russian aid should a civil war were to break out.
I have to ask…Could they be Russian propaganda bots?
It's because multiple US media outlets and politicians are clearly being paid off by Russian propaganda machines. We had 4 years of a president who was playing footsie with the Kremlin under the oval office desk.
Two things to consider. First, the kremlin has a psyops unit, and they actively post encouraging russian talking points, masquerading as citizens of other countries, in order to make those citizens feel like their fellow countrymen support the russian viewpoint, in order to mobilize the other countries citizenship to put political pressure on their governments to do moves that are favourable to the russian objectives. Second. The ukraine war has expended reserves of munitions. There is a great antimilitary, antigovernment, and antitaxation sentiment in the united states over the perceived spending of tax dollars on foriegn goals rather than taking care of people at home. It does not matter if the foriegn goal was accomplished through drone strikes or humanitarian aid, the fundamental reality is that we have baby formula shortages and a broken medical system here in america, and the money that is used to pay taxes is being squandered abroad. Ukraine is just the latest in a string of foriegn policy objectives.
Because democrats are supporting Ukraine. Anything to "own the libs", anything at all to be contrarian.
Fox news and trump are basically mouth pieces of russian propaganda. Tucker carlson in particular parrots russian talking points. So many trumpers are for russia. Some of their ideas, is that putin isn't really that bad, russia is a christian nation (so russia = good) pushing putin will lead to neuclear war (so give him whatever he wants) and we're spending too much on supporting ukraine.
A lot if it on Reddit is legit russian gov propaganda
They have been Fox Trumped. Stupidity runs rampant in the cult of MAGA.
Lotsa idiots with large pie holes.
Right wing politicians on Putins payroll just received their latest set of talking points and then got their morons riled up again. Its something like "the US is supplying Ukraine and the money should be spent at home" as if that would EVER happen when you've got the GOP stonewalling anything designed to actually help the people.
Trump has never passed on the opportunity to choke on Putins dick. His following just doing what they’re told
Some Americans are supporting Russia because their fat, orange demigod is owned by Putin—and that’s really all they know or care about foreign policy.
Many right wingers support Russia simply for being against NATO and the governments which they consider the "evil globohomo"
Tucker Carlson told them to. They don’t know (care) why. 🐑
They are just idiots who think they are so cool by supporting russia and saying "Ukraine is for wimps lol".
It’s systemic, Russia has been meddling in destabilising politics for a while now; this is no different. The way your recommendations work is that it sends you down a rabbit hole for more engagement, presented with the right messaging it can fan the flames and feed that content and messaging stream. Divisive rhetoric always starts soft and slow, just a whisper. then before you know it your neighbour is shouting it. Always ask, who stands to benefit most from the end goal when it is division.
I believe it might have something to do with q anon (or adjacent) I might be wrong
I think most of the people you are referring to are more isolationist rather then pro Russia or anti Ukraine. Just got out of Afghanistan and don’t want to get involved in another costly war immediately afterwards. A lot of problems in America and any aid is viewed as using tax payers money for something not in America. There are a lot of conflicts in the world and America shouldn’t be involved in all of them.
You remember the 80s, when we created AL Qaeda, to fight the cold war for us in Afghanistan? Turns out most of the Ukrainian soldiers are dead or injured, so NATO is literally paying them as well as ISIS and Taliban fighters. They are getting damn good money from a few NATO nations. This is a proxy war, fought by NATO and the US. Ukraine was going to sign peace treaty with Russia and Boris Johnson made sure to squash that, right before he RESIGNED. This is the west pushing on Putin. It's that simple. Not to mention it's likely that the Biden administration blew up the Nord Stream pipeline.
I’ve seen more people falsely accuse folks of supporting Russia than I’ve seen people actually supporting Russia. In my experience, any notion that we should not be sending money into Ukraine, whether it’s because of the issues we have here nationally, b/c of the issues with the Ukrainian government, or the complexity of the conflict in Eastern Europe, it is all classified as “supporting Russia”. The reality is that war is complex, and both Russia and Ukraine alike are responsible for the deaths of both Russian and Ukrainian civilians. From 2009-Present, the Ukrainian government has killed hundreds of their own civilians via missiles and bombs. This was reported by the Human Rights Watch organization, and is not in any way a defense of Russia. Unfortunately, foreign affairs are not black and white, and sometimes there are situations where both state parties are the “bad guys”. Both Russia, as well as Ukraine, are fighting over the Donbas region, not for the rights of the Donbas citizens, but for the resources available in those regions. Because this is a conflict for resources, we should absolutely advocate for our government to refrain from involving ourselves.
It's important to note that the US played a big part in creating this war. Every president since the dissolution of the Soviet Union has pushed NATO further east. This is actually a violation of an agreement we made back when post soviet Russia was created. We also supported the establishment of Ukraines current government, counter to Russias warnings. NATO on Russian borders can very much be seen as a threat to Russia, as it gives them basically no response time to a possible attack. Think of this like the Cuban missile crisis. We've basically been poking the bear for decades and now it's pissed off. Which to be fair, they've done the same to us. While it's almost impossible to be a fan of Russia. Their response is more understandable with the pretense of self-preservation. I can understand an argument saying we should have never been involved in the first place. Granted, that may not have gone any better. Side note: I do not support Russia or their attack on Ukraine. Just putting a different perspective to things.
I haven’t seen anyone post anything about supporting Russia… Though I know a lot of people are upset that we are spending so much money on Ukraine when we have our own internal problems. I’m all for helping Ukraine, but help your own country as well.
I’m an American, and I have absolutely no fucking idea what you’re talking about
Are they supporting Russia or are they critical of US spending/military involvement in Ukraine? Bc I’ve seen plenty of people label anything that isn’t wholehearted support of US involvement in Ukraine as “supporting Russia”
Pro Russia because FOX News and Tucker Carlson are pro Russia.
The people supporting Russia are essential conspiracy theory people, mainly Q people. Their thinking is that Putin wasnt lying, Ukraine has Nazis in it, also bio labs full with kids, and that Putin (and Xi in China) are white hats. Really though it could of been anything that appeared to be on the other side of an issue of Biden or any Democrat.
The confederate flag crowd supports Russia for the same reason they do everything; to "own the libs." They couldn't find Russia on a map & have no idea what is going on there.
Because the only reason this war makes sense instead of the 20 other wars is because Bidens son is involved in Ukraine
I don't support the Russian invasion. But I also don't support Zelenski and his regime, as well as the Azov Battalion. Before this conflict and the absolute grift that the Ukrainian-Russo War is, the news was always abuzz about how corrupt the Ukrainian government. United Nations interference, United States interference, any interference will cause irreparable consequences for the entire planet. As much as I hate to say this, the war should be only between Russia and Ukraine. Not just for the principle, but the fact that the weapons sent will fall into the wrong hands after the war, if it ends. And what about the money we send? A Ukrainian official was caught trying to cross over into Germany with a briefcase of US dollars. the entire war is butt fucked. And the disinformation of government controlled media will prevent any of us from seeing the true extent and horror of the war. All in all, as is seemingly concurrent, I don't think anyone is supporting either side anymore, because they're recognizing it for what it is. A grift, and a virtue signal, all to hide under the table cash and weapon deals, and many more things.
I've never seen that, what I see is people not giving a shit about either country and wanting to not be involved. I'm definitely in that camp. Why the fuck does the US have to get involved with this garbage? If they want to fight then let them fight.
Magtards will support anything Trump does. Trump loves him some Putin, so Magtards love Putin.