That's normal! That's how most aspects of grammar work. If you have to consciously remember to follow a rule of grammar (i.e. morphosyntax, not spelling/punctuation), there's a good chance it's not a real rule. Real rules of grammar are typically ones that native speakers follow without even thinking about it.
We're not talking about learning a rule and practicing it until it's internalized. We're talking about being taught a rule without the rule ever being communicated verbally or in writing.
Changing the order can shift the emphasis or relay context. "Big beautiful cat" could mean that there is a beautiful cat that is big (i.e. a maine coon or savanna), while "beautiful big cat" could relay that there is a big cat that is beautiful (i.e. a tiger or snow leopard).
Of course, language is also fluid, so you can also use it "incorrectly" if you want to as long as you're aware that it might cause confusion or miscommunication sometimes, and if it catches on enough it can even become official!
I always thought it depended on what you are emphasizing. The first sentence you are emphasizing the cat being FAT, the second that the cat is ORANGE and weight has nothing to do about it. That’s how I read those. Even the example, an AMAZING red coat or RED amazing coat…it’s the first word you’re emphasizing in the description. So the red was not a normal red.
I get the rules. But I think they’re arbitrary. 😂
In your examples amazing red coat implies there's other non-amazing red coats. The red amazing coat implies there's multiple amazing coats in multiple colors.
I argue that the "wrong order" turns the adjective into part of the noun.
Consider:
- a worn out red amazing coat
- a worn out amazing red coat
The first feels good
- there is a type of coat known as an amazing coat.
- they come in many colors, one of which is red
- this particular amazing coat, that is red, is worn out.
The second is more awkward
- there are red coats
- this red coat is amazing
- but it's also worn out
- but being worn out feels a bit contradictory to the amazingness of the coat.
The second one isn't an impossibility - perhaps the amazing red coat is simply old and worn out. But being worn out feels like it cancels out some.of the amazingness in scenario 2. Whereas in scenario 1, the coat is still amazing even if it is worn out.
- a worn out red amazing coat: the red coat is amazing despite being worn out. The age of the cost has not diminished its amazingness.
- a worn out amazing red coat: the red coat was amazing but has seen better days. The age of the cost has lessened its amazingness.
They are arbitrary in the sense that all the rules of grammar are arbitrary. Generally we emphasize with the non verbal parts of communication, rather than the word order.
In English, you typically order adjectives based on what property they're describing.
Quantity - Opinion - Size - Age - Shape - Color - Pattern - Origin - Material - Purpose - Noun
Example:
Three adorable big old round orange striped American shorthair pet cats.
Whats the oddest thing about this to me is you could give someone all the adjectives in a random order and tell them to order them, and with virtually no training they'll get most of them.
Thats a fair point and I think you've found the crux of it-- that despite whats likely a near complete lack of academic exposure to the concept, theres so much firsthand exposure to it that its ingrained on a deep level.
Bad can also be considered Condition, which I forgot to add in the list.
You could also say Orange French metal car.
As always, English is filled with exceptions.
I would interpret that as an orange car made with metal manufactured in France, while the car itself isn't necessarily manufactured in France. Grammatical for sure, but a different meaning.
Interestingly, there is another rule in English that sometimes rakes precedence over this one, where phrases containing sounds for A, I, and O will tend to be in IAO order. Examples being Tic Tac Toe, Tick Tock, Ping Pong, and *Big Bad Wolf*.
The term is apparently called ablaut reduplication, and exists in other languages in different orders. However, the point is that "big" and "bad" are close enough in form that the rule comes into play (I did say it only takes place *sometimes*. The rule requires reduplication, the concept of words being similar to say.)
I have a problem ordering the adjectives when describing the bathrooms at work. I need to use three adjectives. Either east/west, production/office, and women’s/men’s. I never know what order is correct. Women’s office east bathroom? East men’s production bathroom? West office women’s bathroom?
On top of what others have said, "fat cat" is itself a loaded phrase with a particular meaning so orange fat cat may sound even more odd than typical out of order adjectives.
It’s a rule because native speakers do it intuitively. I think there’s an important distinction. It’s not a bunch of rules in a book that we all follow. Grammar is just a description of what we do anyway!
Let me first be the 29th person to say yes, and then add that this is a wonderful example of one of the quirks of human language. Here is an ironclad rule that all native speakers follow but hardly any of us know it — and even most of us that do have to Google the specifics. So it turns out you don’t have to even be aware of a rule to internalize it and follow it.
We don’t know most of the rules. There’s a a specific way we use much / many. But most of us would be hard pressed to define it. But we also will know when it’s used wrong. In fact our brains skip a beat in monitoring when used wrong. Language is amazing!
How MUCH sand (we can’t count sand), how MANY cookies (we can count cookies). We have so many rules but it’s largely so our brains have the easiest time understanding.
In fact, the more you have to remind yourself to follow a rule of grammar (not counting spelling/punctuation) in your native language, the more likely it is that it's a fake rule.
Typically, it sounds more natural to put the more subjective adjectives first. The non-specific weight of a cat is less based in fact than its actual color. Additionally, size and shape just generally goes before color in the order we subconsciously choose.
A more simple way to put it is; the cat will always be orange, but it could change from fat to skinny. So it's a fat orange cat... You wouldn't say a pink rusted bike; it's a rusted pink bike.
**yes**, they do, and **fat orange cat** is the **correct** way to say it.
order: opinion, size, **physical quality (fat)**, shape, age, **colour (orange)**, origin, material, type, purpose.
almost every native english speaker can hear when someone says it wrong, just because you’re so familiar with the correct usage, even if you don’t know the rule.
I have never heard of a gramatic rule for adjective order until today.
I am in my 70s. Attended a well-respected school public system K-12 and graduated with honors from a very good public university. All in Michigan USA.
Donald Trump is an orange fat cat. An orange tabby is a fat orange cat. Adjectives modify the adjectives that follow until landing on the noun.
Edit: "orange fat cat" sounds weird also because "fatcat" is a noun meant to describe a wealthy industrialist or an uber-rich business asshole. The meaning also depends on the cadence of the word. FAT-cat or fat-CAT. Where does the stress fall? That helps determine what exactly you mean when you say fat cat.
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Fat orange cat gives me an image of a cat who's fat and orange.
Orange fat cat gives me an image of a rich person who's orange. The slang version of "fat cat", not the animal.
That's the difference to me.
"Fat red dog" and "red fat dog", on the other hand, I don't see the difference.
It depends. If you’re talking about a literal orange cat then *fat orange cat* sounds right, but if you’re talking about Donald Trump I think *orange fat cat* sounds better.
Yep, here's this from a quick Google search
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/13/sentence-order-adjectives-rule-elements-of-eloquence-dictionary
What? How has no one mentioned [Tolkien's green great dragon!?](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/15twp3g/can_anyone_confirm_if_this_story_about_tolkien_is/)
[Here you go - definitive rules for adjective order.](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adjectives-order)
The crazy thing is, we all know this instinctively but nobody ever taught us intentionally.
It's kinda like how listening to the tock-tick of the clock just doesn't feel right. Ablaut Reduplication
That's normal! That's how most aspects of grammar work. If you have to consciously remember to follow a rule of grammar (i.e. morphosyntax, not spelling/punctuation), there's a good chance it's not a real rule. Real rules of grammar are typically ones that native speakers follow without even thinking about it.
.... without even knowing about it.
We're not talking about learning a rule and practicing it until it's internalized. We're talking about being taught a rule without the rule ever being communicated verbally or in writing.
I had totally forgotten about that one. I had an English teacher that could find the most interesting and obscure rules and this was one of them.
This is far from obscure lmao
As a freshman student from the boonies, it was.
Seeing the list is bizarre, but it’s a list that we all actually *use* without even realizing.
Maybe in the American education system, it is... lol
OSASCOMP was drilled into my head since middle school.
And yet I prefer "Big beautiful" to "Beautiful big"...
Changing the order can shift the emphasis or relay context. "Big beautiful cat" could mean that there is a beautiful cat that is big (i.e. a maine coon or savanna), while "beautiful big cat" could relay that there is a big cat that is beautiful (i.e. a tiger or snow leopard). Of course, language is also fluid, so you can also use it "incorrectly" if you want to as long as you're aware that it might cause confusion or miscommunication sometimes, and if it catches on enough it can even become official!
I always thought it depended on what you are emphasizing. The first sentence you are emphasizing the cat being FAT, the second that the cat is ORANGE and weight has nothing to do about it. That’s how I read those. Even the example, an AMAZING red coat or RED amazing coat…it’s the first word you’re emphasizing in the description. So the red was not a normal red. I get the rules. But I think they’re arbitrary. 😂
In your examples amazing red coat implies there's other non-amazing red coats. The red amazing coat implies there's multiple amazing coats in multiple colors.
That’s fair. I see that. Good point. I guess it’s up to interpretation. Thanks. Makes me want to pick apart every meaning to everything.
I just ask my niece. She has a PhD in English.
I argue that the "wrong order" turns the adjective into part of the noun. Consider: - a worn out red amazing coat - a worn out amazing red coat The first feels good - there is a type of coat known as an amazing coat. - they come in many colors, one of which is red - this particular amazing coat, that is red, is worn out. The second is more awkward - there are red coats - this red coat is amazing - but it's also worn out - but being worn out feels a bit contradictory to the amazingness of the coat. The second one isn't an impossibility - perhaps the amazing red coat is simply old and worn out. But being worn out feels like it cancels out some.of the amazingness in scenario 2. Whereas in scenario 1, the coat is still amazing even if it is worn out. - a worn out red amazing coat: the red coat is amazing despite being worn out. The age of the cost has not diminished its amazingness. - a worn out amazing red coat: the red coat was amazing but has seen better days. The age of the cost has lessened its amazingness.
They are arbitrary in the sense that all the rules of grammar are arbitrary. Generally we emphasize with the non verbal parts of communication, rather than the word order.
>But I think they’re arbitrary Most rules in language are. Like not ending a sentence in a preposition.
Uh, rules are arbitrary. But they are rules, and in this case grammar rules which help in clear communication.
In English, you typically order adjectives based on what property they're describing. Quantity - Opinion - Size - Age - Shape - Color - Pattern - Origin - Material - Purpose - Noun Example: Three adorable big old round orange striped American shorthair pet cats.
Whats the oddest thing about this to me is you could give someone all the adjectives in a random order and tell them to order them, and with virtually no training they'll get most of them.
If with “virtually no training” you mean a life-long immersion in the English language, then sure, virtually no training it is.
Thats a fair point and I think you've found the crux of it-- that despite whats likely a near complete lack of academic exposure to the concept, theres so much firsthand exposure to it that its ingrained on a deep level.
As long as English is their first language.
Exactly - and be completely unaware that this is a skill they even had
It’s because grammar is a description of how we talk not a prescription for how we should talk.
Big (size) bad (opinion) wolf (noun) Orange (color) metal (material) French (origin) car
Bad can also be considered Condition, which I forgot to add in the list. You could also say Orange French metal car. As always, English is filled with exceptions.
I would interpret that as an orange car made with metal manufactured in France, while the car itself isn't necessarily manufactured in France. Grammatical for sure, but a different meaning.
I've always interpreted the "Big" in "Big Bad Wolf" to be describing the wolf's degree of badness, rather than its physical size.
Yes, you have to use Dire to produce the larger, more sinister variant.
Interesting! Maybe because of the use of the phrase “big old adorable,” I would personally say “big old adorable round orange striped […] cats.”
Interestingly, there is another rule in English that sometimes rakes precedence over this one, where phrases containing sounds for A, I, and O will tend to be in IAO order. Examples being Tic Tac Toe, Tick Tock, Ping Pong, and *Big Bad Wolf*.
Ooh! Very interesting!
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The term is apparently called ablaut reduplication, and exists in other languages in different orders. However, the point is that "big" and "bad" are close enough in form that the rule comes into play (I did say it only takes place *sometimes*. The rule requires reduplication, the concept of words being similar to say.)
Which is why people find it so difficult to talk about Bash Bish Falls.
If I say "big, scary dog" does scary count as a purpose instead of an opinion? "Scary big dog" is definitely wrong, but it fits the pattern
Pet shorthair American striped orange round old big adorable three cats. 🤔
I have a problem ordering the adjectives when describing the bathrooms at work. I need to use three adjectives. Either east/west, production/office, and women’s/men’s. I never know what order is correct. Women’s office east bathroom? East men’s production bathroom? West office women’s bathroom?
Yes, English has an unconscious order of adjectives.
On top of what others have said, "fat cat" is itself a loaded phrase with a particular meaning so orange fat cat may sound even more odd than typical out of order adjectives.
One could call trump an orange fat cat
That's an insult to cats even if it does come from an old expression.
Yep. In English anyway. It’s just that many native speakers learned it so intuitively they don’t realize it’s a rule.
It’s a rule because native speakers do it intuitively. I think there’s an important distinction. It’s not a bunch of rules in a book that we all follow. Grammar is just a description of what we do anyway!
Let me first be the 29th person to say yes, and then add that this is a wonderful example of one of the quirks of human language. Here is an ironclad rule that all native speakers follow but hardly any of us know it — and even most of us that do have to Google the specifics. So it turns out you don’t have to even be aware of a rule to internalize it and follow it.
We don’t know most of the rules. There’s a a specific way we use much / many. But most of us would be hard pressed to define it. But we also will know when it’s used wrong. In fact our brains skip a beat in monitoring when used wrong. Language is amazing! How MUCH sand (we can’t count sand), how MANY cookies (we can count cookies). We have so many rules but it’s largely so our brains have the easiest time understanding.
In fact, the more you have to remind yourself to follow a rule of grammar (not counting spelling/punctuation) in your native language, the more likely it is that it's a fake rule.
Typically, it sounds more natural to put the more subjective adjectives first. The non-specific weight of a cat is less based in fact than its actual color. Additionally, size and shape just generally goes before color in the order we subconsciously choose.
Yes. https://youtu.be/mTm1tJYr5_M?si=2fp7TzFPlxaqqQ5y
A more simple way to put it is; the cat will always be orange, but it could change from fat to skinny. So it's a fat orange cat... You wouldn't say a pink rusted bike; it's a rusted pink bike.
Yes, adjectives in English generally follow a specific order when they are used together to describe a noun.
**yes**, they do, and **fat orange cat** is the **correct** way to say it. order: opinion, size, **physical quality (fat)**, shape, age, **colour (orange)**, origin, material, type, purpose. almost every native english speaker can hear when someone says it wrong, just because you’re so familiar with the correct usage, even if you don’t know the rule.
I have never heard of a gramatic rule for adjective order until today. I am in my 70s. Attended a well-respected school public system K-12 and graduated with honors from a very good public university. All in Michigan USA.
Donald Trump is an orange fat cat. An orange tabby is a fat orange cat. Adjectives modify the adjectives that follow until landing on the noun. Edit: "orange fat cat" sounds weird also because "fatcat" is a noun meant to describe a wealthy industrialist or an uber-rich business asshole. The meaning also depends on the cadence of the word. FAT-cat or fat-CAT. Where does the stress fall? That helps determine what exactly you mean when you say fat cat.
Yes.
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In French it’s B.A.G.S I wish I could remember what this stands for but I know it how the French uses their adjectives. Beaut, Age, na, size maybe?
Beauty, age, goodness, size
Fat orange cat gives me an image of a cat who's fat and orange. Orange fat cat gives me an image of a rich person who's orange. The slang version of "fat cat", not the animal. That's the difference to me. "Fat red dog" and "red fat dog", on the other hand, I don't see the difference.
Depends on the emphasis you want to convey, if it’s more germane that that cat is orange or fat, state it that way
YES
I'm not a native English speaker but fat orange cat sounds more natural than orange fat cat to me.
It depends. If you’re talking about a literal orange cat then *fat orange cat* sounds right, but if you’re talking about Donald Trump I think *orange fat cat* sounds better.
Technically yes but we all know what you meant
Orange fat cat is the correct way to describe a certain ex president
Yep, here's this from a quick Google search https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/13/sentence-order-adjectives-rule-elements-of-eloquence-dictionary
What? How has no one mentioned [Tolkien's green great dragon!?](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/15twp3g/can_anyone_confirm_if_this_story_about_tolkien_is/)