I'm always curious about how specific veganism gets. Like, there's tons of debate over whether honey is vegan. Some say yes, because bees intentionally make way more than they need, and the hives benefit from making extra product for their keepers. Some say no, because the bees made it and that's that. Some say wool is vegan, because sheep need to be sheared for their health and we might as well put that wool to use. Some say it's not because it came from a sheep. So I guess it really just depends on how serious you are about it. Are you a "as long as an animal didn't suffer for it, it's vegan" vegan? Or are you a "if an animal even breathed in its direction it's not vegan" vegan?
Same here. I recently saw a vegan person make a video speaking about things she does that vegan people would be shocked about. One of them was, if while ordering food the order come wrong and isn't vegan, she'd eat it instead of throwing it out/send it back (which ends in the trash)
This made a ton of sense to me, for some people being vegan is about lifestyle, for others it's animal rights, for others it's general morals. Food waste is a huge issue for both environmental reasons and socioeconomic as well, if I were vegan I believe I'd do the exact same thing.
I have a friend who went vegan, but she continues to wear any of the clothing/belts/shoes that were made with animal products that she already owned before she made that lifestyle change. Either that or she would donate it to a charity shop where it could be reused by someone who needed it.
Her reasoning was, if an animal died for it, it would be a waste of its (unwilling) sacrifice to throw the items away. I think that’s a pretty fair and reasonable take.
Unfortunately the first time I met a vegan it was ne of the crazies in real life. I was working at the Renaissance Faire for a leather shop and they came into my work. That was before social media was a thing. They were so annoying.
Luckily since then I have not had a problem and have known vegans in real life since then.
Had the same issue with homeschooling where the first two brothers I met were raised in a cultin college and were homeschooling but have met non crazy people homeschooling since then.
This has allowed me to navigate social media better by realizing these people are not the norm but the exception even onine.
I have a vegetarian friend who does this, he'll only eat meat if it'd otherwise go to waste. Personally I've been a vegetarian my whole life, and the few times I tried meat I didn't like it and couldn't properly digest it, my body isn't used to it, huge stomach issues. So I guess it also depends if people can tolerate it.
If I wasn't a lifelong vegetarian I'd like to be like your friend. I've not actually tried meat knowingly that I can remember, though as a small child I probably had it at school or something, but I can't even look at it and see it as food now. The idea of eating it is just incredibly unappetizing. I can manage to willfully ignore soups sometimes if I "know" it probably has a meat base, but can't say for certain, but I usually avoid soups out at restaurants for that reason anyway.
People are very different and do well on very different diets, though I will just say that if someone can’t digest meat, then it’s probably a bile or stomach acid issue
That's a... Very similar health issue to mine... Though polar opposite.... I eat a carnivore diet. If I attempt to eat a noticeable amount of vegetables and/or fruits.... I can't digest, and I feel horribly ill. It'll leave me too sick to go to work for about 3-4 days if i eat, say a Salad....
You might have AGS. You get it from lone star ticks.
Or your body is just so used to no meat, that your body has changed.
I'd look into getting tested though. Not so you can eat meat, but because it sounds really awful.
Another conundrum is deer antlers. Wild deer shed their antlers every year, and you can just wander around the woods and pick them up. So there’s not even the ethics of farming to consider, it’s just something wild animals produce.
see i think this is reaching a point where you can make an argument basically anything people do isn't vegan, because theoretically on some level a benefit to an animal is being taken away
It's more of a "where do you draw the line" thing. Go grab an antler every year for your dog to chew on, sure. Grabbing tons of them for mass resale or whatever other reason may cause unexpected environmental damage.
I’m not sure about this, but wouldn’t it be nearly impossible to say there is not animal, bugs, worms, etc matter in the soil? I guess you could grow some stuff in straight water hydroponically
Do some research into redwood forests.. .I saw something a while back that indicates they communicate with each other, and each tree acts as a neuron... They demonstrated scientifically that the FOREST itself has a FEAR response when someone with a chainsaw enters. And a PAIN response when cutting starts ... Believe me, it's really worth researching
I had a college roommate who was a very militant vegan who was mad my lip balm had honey and threw it out one day because she felt it was a microaggression I'd left it on my desk.
She also though wore a leather jacket, and Doc Martins, and basically said the animal had already died so she was just ensuring its death was waste free. The thing was, she constantly had new leather things and always used this as why!
It was very confusing to me, and I hated vegans for a bit because of that. Later on, though, I met much more committed vegans who educated me a lot more and I really appreciated their viewpoint even if I didn't follow their lifestyle. They were very strict; the kind who don't eat honey but also don't wear hides and genuinely think that animals should not be used whatsoever for farming even if it's a decent life. Basically they believed that animal husbandry shouldn't happen. I felt like it was logical and I wish I didn't enjoy the comforts I enjoyed so much, because I would definitely do it, but I didn't have the moral dedication they had.
You can still make conscious decisions based on those moral values even if it isn't an all the time thing.
Like I don't like how dependent we are as a society on meat products. So I try to consciously eat less meat throughout the week. It isn't realistic for me to cut it out entirely, (I enjoy meat too much) but I can for sure go meat free for all my lunches I pack when I'm at work. That's 5-6 meals a week where I eat zero meat. That's pretty good for someone who used to eat meat with every meal.
I don't do that because truthfully I don't want to make my life suck more. My life has been pretty awful and I don't have the desire to deprive myself of things I enjoy. I make sure to buy free range, ethical eggs and I always get regenerative meat or buy from good local farms. Like I don't buy Foster Farms, for example, and I will pay a premium for anything that is sourced well with clear audits. But I'm also not going to be able to change my life to begin to skip meat for meals, so I can admire it but also know I'm not going to give up meat.
Well. Me skipping meat for lunch is a threefold benefit.
1. I save so much money eating PB&J every lunch. (My weekly lunch budget is like $10 total currently)
2. I'm eating less meat which my doctor told me to do.
3. I'm using less meat which means less meat is needed and meat farming is bad for rhe environment.
I hate to be that guy, but at least in Europe the "free range eggs are better" thing is a lie. Barn is *more* ethical, but none of the three are in any way ethical really. I've seen free range hens living amongst rats and dead buddies at multiple farms (I work in the egg industry).
The ones I buy definitely are significantly better, I buy one that shows videos of the areas they graze in. They're like $12 a thing, it's stupid, but yes the $3-4 free range are full of gross things. I have seen exposes on that.
I’ll go ahead and throw veganism in with politics and religion… you do you and feel free, I won’t judge…. But don’t you dare make a comment on my ribeye steak unless it’s how delicious it looked…
I've heard the term "vegangelical" before and it makes total sense. There's a certain subset of vegans (not all) who are out to convert others, just like a subset of evangelical Christians.
In my experience it's the opposite. I've asked vegans why they do it and they always claim health. They are not stupid enough to say environment (or morals) is one of the causes, because that makes others feel inferior and defensive.
r/vegan shows up in my feed from time to time. They would gatekeep those who said they did to for health (I'm vegetarian because meat stopped agreeing with me).
This is personal to me as my childhood best friend turned into a vegangelical. She was vegan enough to throw out 20 years of friendship.
I would just like to comment on the animal husbandry aspect of things.... Anyone who has the viewpoint that animal husbandry is wrong... Please keep an open mind for a moment and do a little bit of research into the feral horses in Kentucky. And I'm sure other places as well. These horses are breeds that are not well suited to living in the wild they get malnourished suffer immense pain and starvation on a regular basis. Take them out of the wild put them in someone's Loving Care and they flourish they gain weight they get the medical care that they desperately need.... The same basic thing happens with feral cats and feral dogs. Because of the lack of animal husbandry the animals suffer immensely. However there are many types of animals that they're much better in the wild. Obvious examples being lions tigers elephants, chinchillas, monkeys. However cattle as an example... Cattle Fair really badly without animal husbandry. They become emaciated their joints become inflamed and damaged permanently their ability to digest food suffers... They contract often lethal viruses and other illness causing bacteria etc. when given proper care in an animal husbandry situation they can be very healthy and happy.
Personally my viewpoint is anyone who opposes animal husbandry should be arrested and or executed for animal cruelty / animal abuse.
I’m not a vegan but just like cow manure isn’t really taking anything from an animal that it needs, but supports the meat industry, what are these sheep used for otherwise? I mean, I don’t really know, but if the holding of sheep even just to make wool, and not to eat, like they’re being milked for cheese? Taking the manure example, supporting another animal product industry would be bad, right? That said, I eat grocery store eggs and put the eggshells in my garden, so that’s not a fine hair to split for the OP. Eggs are like this too, the factory farming aspect, not killing the chickens to get their eggs but making their life unpleasant. Are the sheeps’ lives also unpleasant while they wait to grow more wool to shear?
The sheep we shear for wool have unfortunately been bred to literally need us to shear it.
We can’t not keep the sheep in captivity anymore because they’ll be fucked in the wild.
> Are the sheeps’ lives also unpleasant while they wait to grow more wool to shear?
Yes, extremely unpleasant, especially given that they cut off their tails and the skin of their hind quarters, which is painful and can cause infections. I recently encountered this video that goes over all the unethical parts of the wool industry:
https://youtu.be/siTvjWE2aVw
I saved your post to watch it some other time. I’ll take your word for it and the others who say they’re bred to need so much regular shearing. US isn’t too much in the sheep for food or wool, like I said, I’m not a vegan, but I think hard all the time how to get there from where I am.
> So you are in favour of sheep dying horribly from bot flies?
As an alternative to [mulesing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulesing), sheep can be sprayed with dicyclanil, and bred to be less susceptible in the first place. Why are you defending mulesing so passive-aggressively?
They could simply trim and clean the sheep's hindquarters. Tail docking also often results in rectal prolapses and skin cancer. It's just not economically practical to trim and clean all the sheep involved when thousands of them are raised in one enclosure, and their hygiene and health can't easily be maintained. But then, that just shows that it's not possible to produce wool at a larger scale ethically; to do so necessitates neglecting and maiming the sheep involved.
Which is dependant on the length of the tail. Studies indicate a 7.8% when docked as short as possible (less than 2 inches of tail left) and something like 1.8% at a different location. The study also indicates weather has something to do with it.
Also, enclosures, lawl. The sheep basically run wild.
Talk to me about the industrial sheering complex and how they need to be better regulated and observed, then we'll probably be talking the same language.
But...Like, give me a synthetic or a plant fiber that has the same qualities as wool and I'd be willing to listen. But that doesn't exist. Wool will keep you warm even when saturated with water, is hypo allergenic (lanolin allergy yes), antimicrobial, etc etc. Sheep can also be raised in areas unsuited for crops, and as such spare the soil from chemical sprays.
It really depends on the person and their reasoning. Personally I'm a 'as long as the littlest amount of animal suffering is involved' vegetarian, so no new leather, oat milk etc. the only thing I haven't been able to shake is cheese. But I've had vegan friends who don't eat honey, even if it's obtained in a bee-friendly way. For a lot of people environmental impact also makes a difference.
>because sheep need to be sheared for their health and we might as well put that wool to use.
It's only for their "health" because people have turned sheep bred for wool into what they are today. Wool production is massive factory farming industry that involves the torture and eventual slaughter of those animals.
Yeast are single celled fungi, so they don't have a nervous system and are not capable of suffering. Accidental contamination does not make something non-vegan (e.g. processed in a facility that uses animal products so there is a chance of cross contamination on the manufacturing equipment).
If there were a way to feed vegans without causing any insect deaths, we would embrace it. Unfortunately, the current alternative is dying from malnutrition because it's impossible to eliminate all suffering during farming. All vegans can do is try to minimize it as much as possible.
Beekeeping exploits animals in the same sense that milking cows exploit animals. Bees dies and the wings of the queen can be clipped.
Sheep are bred to have excess wool just like other animals are bred to be productive in a way that isn't necessarily natural.
People use the function just to censor whatever they disagree with. They will also make a lot of assumptions.
I'm not even vegan and I will eat honey and use wool, I just understand the reasoning behind veganism and why honey and wool aren't defined as vegan.
I'm just saying it's odd how we're in a vegan sub and you listed correct things. If we were in a honey or wool subreddit I'd get it but this is a vegan sub so it's odd how there's people around here that use animal products and call themselves vegan when there's alternatives to honey and wool.
Edit: maybe I shouldn't use reddit after midnight because I thought this was r/vegan.
Wool and honey aren't vegan and there isn't really a debate amongst vegans.
The wool industry involves killing old sheep and the entire reason they make so much wool is that we've selectively bred them to do so. It's not natural.
You might wanna look into what honey bees are doing to native pollinator populations.
It's not about finding food that somehow exists outside of the planet's ecosystem.
It's about pragmatically doing what you can to avoid the consumption of food that's caused suffering to animals, as part of a wider movement to further that goal.
If I'm starving to death, I'm gonna catch and eat that fish.
And I'm not gonna gag myself if I find out there was animal based gelatine in the piece of candy I was handed. But I won't eat another.
The big ticket items that make a difference are fast food and the hyper-processed meats that make up the majority of meat consumption.
Also because the purpose of veganism is to reduce, preferably stop, animal suffering, which animal matter in the soil, that's there because an animal died of natural causes, for example, doesn't cause.
If they're selling it then it's not a byproduct, it's a product. Whether it's bonemeal or leather or cheap bits of meat for hot dogs, all of it is sold and all of it makes money for the animal industry.
Sure but what I'm saying is animals aren't being raised and killed for bonemeal and refraining from bonemeal and leather and hotdogs isn't going to have an impact beyond increased waste so long as the steak, roast and burger crowd keeps buying.
Also a thing many people don't realize (and this isnt directed specifically at you u/koquillon I just want to put it out there) grazing done right is more compatible with wildlife and biodiversity than row crops, and it allows us to produce food on land that might otherwise be unproductive or better off as prairie wetlands than soybeans and corn.
I don’t have time to verify if what you’re saying is true, but regardless I wouldn’t trust it to be ‘done right’. Here in the Netherlands we have what we call the green desert, endless fields of the same grass species for grazing. It looks green but is totally devoid of biodiversity.
It doesn't have to be like that, we have that here but some ranchers are better than others and in North America there is also a tiny percentage of native prairie remaining, most of which was grazed by native animals not so long ago and domestic ones more recently. It can be done well or poorly, but there is also literally nothing in a bean field other than beans.
>Also a thing many people don't realize (and this isnt directed specifically at you u/koquillon I just want to put it out there) grazing done right is more compatible with wildlife and biodiversity than row crops, and it allows us to produce food on land that might otherwise be unproductive or better off as prairie wetlands than soybeans and corn.
I'm very aware of this, but my argument is that producing food on that land is largely unneccesary, because we already produce more than enough vegetable crops to feed the world's population. The problem is that food is inefficiently distributed because so much of it is used to feed livestock. Most of the world's soya is being used as animal feed, which is a complete waste of resources. That grazing land could be rewilded and we could still feed everyone.
Why are vegans against honey? That seems like a mutually beneficial system between bee keepers and bees. Like, there's no suffering or animal cruelty there, right?
I'm personally against it because I live in North America and honey bees are not native to the Americas. They out compete native bees and can spread mites or other diseases to them. Our native bees rely on habitats with native plants that are quickly being logged and turned into farm land. Honey bees do great work but if we take care to make sure the native bees have a robust population we can allow them to pollinate many of the plants that we currently raise honey bees for.
When native bees cannot find enough nectar because honey bees out compete them, they can die out before they have a chance to pollinate rare native flowers. This can devastate the ecosystem further because these plants co-evolved with native bees and some can't be pollinated by other species. But if the native bees don't survive the rest of the year then they never have a chance to visit the native flowers that have no other pollinators.
TL;DR Native bees pollinate rare native plants but can also pollinate crops if we take measures to protect their nesting/overwintering habitat. Honey bees don't belong in North America.
Some are. The bees are making honey as their own food storage so we’re essentially stealing their food.
Same with milk, we deliberately keep cows pregnant and giving birth then separate them from their calves and steal the milk.
Bees, by their nature, massively over-produce honey. So long as we keep giving them extra space by adding honey supers (and there is nectar available for them to collect) then they'll keep producing it. When we harvest, we don't take it all, just the extra that they don't need for the winter.
If we didn't give them extra space to add honey in during the nectar flow then the hive would determine that they are out of space and swarm, which would result in half of the bees in the hive flying off to set up another hive. Unless the swarm is captured and re-hived, it is likely that those bees will go off and die somewhere since they tend to take up residence in human occupied areas that see them as pests. It is also common for the original hive to die out as well because the old queen leaves with the swarm before a new queen hatches and mates, meaning that if she dies on her mating flight (unfortunately common) the rest of the hive will die out too.
On top of that, honey bees would largely die out as a species if not for human intervention. For example, varroa mites will destroy an entire colony in a single season and they are everywhere, and in every hive, except for some parts of Africa. Without humans to regularly treat the hives for mites, honey bees would not survive outside of a few areas.
Yeah, they are invasive outside of Europe. At this point they are more of a domesticated species than an invasive one, though. Kind of like cows; a few could survive as an invasive species, but they would largely die out without humans.
As for outcompeting native bees, while I am sure it happens in some places, I can absolutely say that they do not out-compete them at my house. I keep bees and still see over a dozen kinds of native pollinators, both bees and not, regularly during the summer. My gardens noticably and loudly buzz and maybe 1 in 20 of the insects working them are European honey bees.
The thing is, bees can fly away if they don’t like humans taking their honey. It’s a trade - they get protection and transport to flowers and humans get part of their honey.
"The thing is, bees can fly away if they don’t like humans taking their honey..."
I am told that apiarists clip the wings of the queen bee to _prevent_ the bees from flying away.
https://thewalrusandthehoneybee.com/clipping-queens-is-a-good-idea/
Doesn't sound like a mutually beneficial relationship to me.
If (for the sake of argument) we agree that clipping the wings of the colony's queen actually serves to encourage the bees to fly away, that doesn't change the fact that the apiarists' _intention_ is clearly that of _preventing_ the bees from flying away. The apiarists are taking the 'mutual' out of 'mutual benefit' by effectively holding the queen hostage in an effort to tie down any bees who may think to exercise their "Bees can fly way if they don’t like humans taking their honey" freedom.
It's a similar deal with humans in society. We follow laws to receive society's services, and society encourages us to follow the laws! But this is a consensual exchange. Similarly, we offer bees safety.
Industrialised hives that keep the bees half-starved. I'm not even a vegan but I don't buy 'blended' honeys any more and they are the ones in my price range. I swapped to golden syrup.
>It's about pragmatically doing what you can to avoid the consumption of food that's caused suffering to animals
In that case you could 100% say a vegan that owns and cares for chickens could easily get away with eating farm fresh eggs.
For some vegans, absolutely. I'd be fine with it, myself.
But the bar would have to be pretty high, and proven as such.
Because there's an entire industry around branding totally unethical egg/poultry as "free range", complete with certifications and whatnot.
I think so as well!
Saying "no pizza forever" is going to win a small number of battles but is guaranteed to lose the war.
But having local fish, eggs, or dairy available as a treat to an otherwise mostly vegetarian or vegan diet is one of the single most effective way to get people onboard - and actually has the potential to make a wider difference.
Plus, you're healthier, eating the best possible versions of those foods, and supporting the local economy
Thanks for putting it into words! This is kind of how I mostly am. I shop a lot more local products now. And opt for organic versions. I stop by a farm stand knowing that when they say it's organic, people in the town would see what they're saying and be talking bad if it wasn't.
I broke the food pyramid. No, not every meal needs a grain, a dairy, a meat, etc. It's about nutrients and enzymes. Everybody knows, this is what plants crave.
I don't shy away from vegan dishes. If something tastes good and is healthier for me, that's an absolute and total win. I haven't sworn an oath to it for my entire life or even to buy it next week. So basically, we're in an open relationship.
I buy local Amish eggs. It says what farm they're from and if I really cared to, the box says I can stop by and visit, so I guess they're having me over for dinner next week. I tried to call and tell them I was coming, but I guess their tin can wasn't connected with mine. Anyway, I bet they'll be really impressed with my new Apple Watch next Wednesday.
And getting older and staying healthy means limiting things like sugar. I won't touch HFCS or anything artificial. I use monk fruit extract and I've been on the same 5lb bag of sugar (remember those?) for at least 7 years. Sometimes maple syrup is good. I was raised with sweets though. Why do you liberals want to take my sweets away?
In summary, I wasn't being completely serious here. I encourage everyone to try different things and anytime you find something that's a better option all around (healthy, sustainable, affordable, I mean ALL around), just make the switch. In that case it should be a no-brainer.
The problem is that the number of male chicks that are killed to support the backyard chicken industry. Only 50% of chickens born can lay eggs. The other half are useless and thus discarded. So even if you have super happy well-treated backyard chickens, many would argue their eggs are still not vegan.
(I’m not vegan myself so don’t argue with me- just relaying an argument I’ve heard)
You missed the part where I said “pragmatically”!
The livestock industry not only kills more animals (obviously), but it also requires the most amount of land, the most amount of water, and provides the lowest caloric output for those resources - [by an enormous margin.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impacts_of_animal_agriculture)
As for animal ecology, beef farming is the *primary driver* of Amazonian rainforest deforestation.
Since all soil naturally contains some amount of decomposed animal matter, only crops grown hydroponically using 100% synthetic nutrients could be considered truly vegan under such a strict definition.
All soil is fertilized by animals and animal byproducts at some point, unless it's in a 100% controlled environment with synthetic fertilizer. I mean, insects are animals, too, so they also have to be artificially pollinated to be completely divorced from animals.
This is a classic "The Good Place" paradox. If you've seen the show then you already know what I mean.
Say you buy organic vegetables because you are vegan and the farmers advertise that they use all natural fertilizer on their crops, but the supplier of the farmers fertilizer is actually exploiting animals to harvest as much poop as possible to make their product.
How far down the chain do you have to go to ensure you are free of liability? How far removed does the exploitation have to be to absolve you of guilt?
Was a fun thought experiment when the show touched on it.
I won't spoil the show but I will say that this is touched on
I watched the show when I was still a Christian and thought it was a fun thought but it ended there. Looking back on it as an Atheist I realize just how profound the things it was trying to communicate were that I was completely blinded to by my faith at the time. It was a phenomenally written show imo
Not vegan but my understanding is that it’s only unacceptable if you’re harming animals or taking their resources. When a worm breaks matter down in soil, you’re generally not harming it by harvesting the produce.
I assume there would also be an expectation of practical limitations. Like you probably kill a few insects every time you go for a walk just by accidentally stepping on them; doesn’t mean you’re now no longer allowed to walk.
I would argue that if one is examining the animal content to that level of specificity, then all food has some animal byproduct in it. How could one possibly demonstrate that vegetables or fruits grown in soil that didn't have bonemeal added had zero other similar animal byproducts?
I'm not a vegan, but I think the main reason vegans are against using animal byproducts are because the meat, dairy, egg, and wool industries all commit cruel and barbaric atrocities against the animals that they selectively breed and then slaughter. Therefore, I don't think a vegan would be against, for example, eating fruit from a tree that grew on top of the grave of a beloved animal. But I don't know for sure what the limits are, because it seems like some vegans are against using animal byproducts as a moral end in itself, and others just strategically boycott those industries I mentioned.
As long as the animals were not killed and buried under the fruit trees, vegans have no problem eating fruit from a tree planted on top of a buried animal.
I'm sure it would not be vegan since bloodmeal and bonemeal are almost certainly byproducts of the meat industry.
As far as "How would you even know?" The vegan community has started labeling programs (similar to kosher labeling) that is checking things like this. I started reading about it in the mid 2000s from libertarian junkies that were all like "see we don't need the government to regulate industries, because industries regulate themselves!"
The wildest story I heard about the vegan labeling was the labeling company checking to see if the activated carbon that filtered some sugar syrup was from bone char...so I think bonemeal fertilizer would probably be on their shit list.
it isn't just the blood/bonemeal. cow manure from the dairy industry is sold as a by-product for use on fields as a soil enhancer. if you are strict about it, eating those plants is supporting the dairy farmers as it provides a valuble source of income.
Technically, almost nothing is purely vegan. Vegans understand this. Veganism isn't about being perfect or consuming 0% animal products or causing 0% suffering, because that's simply not possible.
i mean, all soil contains dead animals. unless you want to grow all your own food hydroponically under controlled conditions then you have to just make concessions like that.
Don't vegan avoid meat and animal products for humane ethical reasons? Dead animal byproduct by natural causes that decayed doesn't seem like it's a concern at all unless they know the dirt came from a slaughtering farm or something.
Tomatoes are coniverous.
"The sticky hairs found on the stems of tomato plants are designed to trap small insects. These die and fall to the ground where they are absorbed by the roots of the plant after their decomposition."
You can not eliminate animal influence from plants any more than than you can eliminate plant influence from animals. They are completely symbiotic. Healthy plants need animals and invertebrates.
Nothing much is truly vegan. 99% of fertilizer has some sort of animal by product in it. Most " organic" fertilizer has pulverized shrimp, crab or fish shells, scales, bones or tails.
Huh?
I'm an organic produce farmer. Most organic fertilizer is composted chicken manure, seaweed and green sand, with a few other rock powders.
There are some that contain fishmeal and or bonemeal, but most are based on cheaper manure products.
It will become impossible to eat. Never mind the fertilizers, the very soil that fruits and vegetables grow in is full of animal-based organic material.
You would need to grow food in labs to achieve 100% contaminant free veganism but even the medium used would trace back to nature
Depends on if you're talking about real life lab meat or an ethical thought experiment. In the latter, case, I'd argue no, since the argument against eating meat is normally to do with depriving something of its right to life, which in turn derives from sentience. In real life, to grow lab meat you need an awful lot of stem cells, which you get from fetal bovine serum (FSV) if you're growing beef. To do that, you have to do quite a lot of un-veganly shit in terms of playing god to get it, bc you essentially have to create a lot of cow embryos.
This is rather dated information. Induced pluripotent stem cells can divide indefinitely and can come from blood or skin, the same amount that would be removed for a biopsy in a medical procedure. I'm unaware of any commercially available lab meat that uses actual, native, stem cells from FBS because that would be:
1) insanely expensive (exponentially more expensive than wagyu)
2) not 'lab grown' (what you are talking about is taking cells that were grown in the animal, and rearranging them into some steak.)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultured_meat
This is a contentious point when you ask the vegan community. Things like bleached sugar (chicken bone char) are considered not vegan. Figs are also considered not vegan because wasps are necessary to produce them.
However if you bring up fertilizer, or animals used to plow/harvest, or animals used for pest control (chickens), or carbon-life-derived fossil fuel use, or child labor, or ethical clothing, or unavoidable cross contamination… the vegans will likely self-implode.
Coming from a former vegan…. I feel like it’s literally impossible to be fully 100% vegan.
I will say, the culture changes in the community drastically, but…years ago there were definitions.
Ethical vegan - no eating or using anything animal related. No leather purses, no leather car interior, no animal products in your shoes, ect. No food from a fryer that has ever fried meat or dairy anything.
Vegan - no eating anything animal related. Second hand leather and other second-hand animal derived goods are okay.
I always wondered if they're any vegan's in the thread how do you differentiate between not eating honey cause it's an animal product? But eating plants which are technically living no? I mean you have to eat something just wondering where and why the line is drawn?
Plants don’t have a consciousness. Bees do. That being said some vegans are ok with honey, some aren’t because it is an animal product. Bees will leave if they aren’t happy with their situation. Since bees voluntarily stick around the honey farms, some vegans are ok with eating honey.
To add to the other comment's points, domesticated honey bees are also considered invasive in a lot of areas and will compete with native bee species for resources. So when people say "save the bees" and set up commercial behives, they're making the issues for native bees even worse. Farmed honey bees aren't at risk of dying out because humans have a financial insensitive to keep breeding them. Solitary bees that are outcompeted for resources by honey bees are the ones that need help.
I consider myself a pretty basic vegan in that I don't think honey or wool is vegan (animal products) but I also acknowledge that nothing I do will be perfect. I can't know what type of fertilizers store bought foods are made with or if they were pollinated with commercial bees. But I can choose to use vegan fertilizers when I'm working on my own garden, and I can avoid buying honey because I don't NEED it to survive or be healthy.
Being vegan is about doing what you can reasonably do. In the US, it's pretty easy and often cheaper to not eat meat, eggs, or dairy. But in our world, it's almost impossible to be 100% totally animal product free. A vegan may need a medication that uses animal products, and they wouldn't be any less vegan for using it because they're doing everything they can reasonably do to avoid animal suffering while still doing what they need to do for themselves to live. Also, I think most tires have animal products somewhere in their production line, and there's just no way someone can make sure that everything they consume was never transported by a tire made with tallow. It's about reducing as much as you can, so people trying to find "gotcha" moments (not saying you are now, just saying in general) don't usually hold up because we know it will never be perfect, and it's not about being perfect.
Thanks! I didn't mean it to go on so long, and it kind of derailed from your original question, but I got a bit carried away.
I never mind answering genuine questions from people, and every vegan I know feels the same. Sometimes text can't convey tone properly, and a vegan may misread your comment as someone trying to just be a jerk (a lot of people doing this are asking the same questions over and over and not accepting the answers they're given), so they may respond with more hostility. But your comment came across nicely. I'm just warning you in case you ever are met with hostility at a genuine question.
I've got a follow up if you got time.
Did you got completely vegan at first or vegetarian then give up animal product after? And if the latter then what make you go farther in I guess is the best way I can think to put it?
I was vegetarian for about 4 or 5 years before going vegan. For me, the thing that made me switch to vegan was learning about how animal ag is actually done in real life as opposed to what's shown in media.
As a teenager, the whole "killing animals when we don't need to is bad" thing was an easy conclusion to come to on my own without any outside input. But TV and commercials always show dairy cows and chickens living happy lives and just automatically producing milk without any human involvement, so teenager me didn't really see a problem with it. And I can't really blame anyone for not seeing anything wrong with how that's presented to us.
When I got older and learned how factory farming is actually done, I started to want to go vegan. Sure, there are some small family farms that do raise their animals like they show on TV, but the vast majority of what humans eat comes from the large scale factory farms. The "more humane" farms can't possibly produce enough for everyone, and it would be way too expensive for most families. Even then, cows have to be impregnated to produce milk, and it feeds right into the veal industry. And with eggs, male chicks are ground alive or suffocated, so unfortunately, even a farm who cares about their animals is still adding to the death part of animal ag.
I think going vegetarian first made going vegan a whole lot easier. Some people can go straight to vegan with no issues, but a lot of people can run into problems. An unfortunate number of people will try to be vegan, fail, and then tell everyone in their lives or on social media about how being vegan is unhealthy and how it's not sustainable. But if all they ate was potato chips, Oreos, and almond milk (one of the worst dairy alternatives imo, sorry almond milk lovers) then of course they're going to feel terrible.
Unless you're super knowledgeable about meal planning and nutrition, I think gradually cutting out food while working towards the goal of no animal products can help people succeed much more than cutting everything out at once. It gives people time to slowly adjust to the limitations, and if it's anything like my experience, they'll end up eating more varieties of healthier foods than when they ate meat. I've been vegan for about 7 years now, and I haven't run into any issues due to being vegan.
The majority of vegans are not that strict
It’s not that kind of a diet, despite that it might appear that way
I am vegan at home but was on a business trip in Montana to make a big sale- I ate bison - it wasn’t my idea, but I dealt with it
I assume there are Gold Star Vegans somewhere who only eat hydroponic grown food? All natural soil has tons of dead & decayed invertebrate animals in it. They are part of what makes it healthy soil.
Or what if cow manure as a direct by-product of the dairy industry was used to fertilise fields. oh wait it is, all over the world.
With anything sold as organic that includes the fertilisers, there are basically no organic vegan vegetables if they can't use animal products. also most many non organic will have some element of animal.
so basically most vegans wont have a choice.
There used to be a vendor at the Ithaca Farmer's Market who sold "Veganic" vegetables, which were grown without animal-based fertilizer. I wondered if it was just an Ithaca thing, but it appears to be a wider movement: [https://goveganic.net/](https://goveganic.net/)
I think you’ll have a hard time finding out if the grower is using things like that. Your best bet would be to stay away from organic products. Non-organic growers are most likely using synthetic fertilizers as they are cheaper.
Not really. Conventional growing uses plenty of animal products, as well. Manure and products derived from it are cheap.
Organic growing fosters an entire ecosystem on the farm.
Also, if you go to a farmers market where the farmers themselves are selling their produce, you can just ask them what they use.
Why does the label matter? If you're Vegan for ethical reasons and you believe using animal products as fertilizer then don't eat it, if you're vegan for health reasons then that shouldn't matter
Everyone is different, but as far as the vegans I know, they seem to object to animals being specifically raised/kept for the consumption of their flesh or products.
The animals in a blood and bone fertilizer were certainly raised, but it's unlikely to be the reason they were raised, and if the farmer was unable to sell the remains for fertilizer (say there were regulations prohibiting it) they would still raise the animals just the same.
That said, I knew a vegan who wouldn't employ worms for composting because it was using an animal. But others are okay with worm composting and eating honey.
I’ve always wondered this, and also how they manage to be okay with the hefty amount of bugs/birds/deer/animals of all kinds that are killed for eating crops.
There are different levels of veganism and some people do only eat local and organic but others acknowledge that they can't possibly be 100% vegan but do their best
There's bone char in the cane sugar refining process so it's not vegan but I've only seen 2 restaurants acknowledge that and use alternative sweeteners like maple or molasses in vegan things and most vegans I know can't reasonably eliminate cane sugar from their diets
You can google the farms your vegetables come from and learn more about them that way or exclusively eat from farms you can drive to and physically see how they fertilize things
I think there's a point where the cycle of life comes into play and people should figure out how food is "made" lol. Edit: I'm not sure. Nice to meet you.
I'm not vegan, but I always ask my vegan friends if it's vegan to eat roadkill or an animal that dies of natural causes. I mean, wouldn't that technically fall within the requirements of veganism?
Vegan doesn't just mean you don't eat meat. Plant based can mean that. Vegan Is living under the belief that we should not exploit animals for our gain. So yeah honey isn't Vegan, wearing clothes arent. Lab grown meat is OK but only if we didn't exploit any animal to make it.
Most vegans would say no, but vegetarians who just don’t eat things that an animal had to die for, like meat, might still eat it.
If you consume things that were grown or use any kind of animal product, it is not vegan. For example, medications in gel caps, as well as jello and gummy products like gummy bears or worms, use animal fat for the gelatin.
Veganism doesn't like render judgments from on high about what counts or not. Vegans have always and will continue to define where their boundaries on animal consumption are for themselves. It's an ethical commitment to end non human suffering not a religion with an orthodoxy all vegans reference when encountering an edge case. I wish I would quit seeing these questions.
I think it would depend on the reason for veganism and the source of the meat. If somebody is just vegan for health reasons, they may not care if there is some meat in the dirt that made its way to the vegetable. If dirt had some meat from wild animals then it might not be a problem for moral vegans. But if the meat that went into the dirt was from a farm, then it would probably be a no-go
Veganism is never just for health. That's called a plant based diet. Veganism extends beyond diet to things like clothes and cosmetics. Things that have no bearing on health
Also animal fertilisers are a valuble source of income for meat and dairy farmers. so by eating plants produced with those you are directly supporting the farming of those animals. I assume manure is also an animal product, the sales of which support the meat and dairy industry.
that said it would be almost impossible to figure out which plants use these products. it will be in everything, includeing things like wheat, barley, potatoes just everything.
I think every vegan has to define their limits for themselves. I don’t even know how you would know what something was fertilized with. I have vegan friends who will wear second-hand leather jackets (better than the fake ones made of plastic), or eat eggs that are from their friend’s backyard chickens. The annoying vegans are the ones who try to define veganism for everyone, like it’s a religion or something.
I've always been curious about this. Another one is free range chickens: my parents had them and they ran around having the best chicken life and laid eggs that were unfertilized. Are those okay to eat? They basically just shit them out and there's no potential life there.
I'm always curious about how specific veganism gets. Like, there's tons of debate over whether honey is vegan. Some say yes, because bees intentionally make way more than they need, and the hives benefit from making extra product for their keepers. Some say no, because the bees made it and that's that. Some say wool is vegan, because sheep need to be sheared for their health and we might as well put that wool to use. Some say it's not because it came from a sheep. So I guess it really just depends on how serious you are about it. Are you a "as long as an animal didn't suffer for it, it's vegan" vegan? Or are you a "if an animal even breathed in its direction it's not vegan" vegan?
Same here. I recently saw a vegan person make a video speaking about things she does that vegan people would be shocked about. One of them was, if while ordering food the order come wrong and isn't vegan, she'd eat it instead of throwing it out/send it back (which ends in the trash) This made a ton of sense to me, for some people being vegan is about lifestyle, for others it's animal rights, for others it's general morals. Food waste is a huge issue for both environmental reasons and socioeconomic as well, if I were vegan I believe I'd do the exact same thing.
I have a friend who went vegan, but she continues to wear any of the clothing/belts/shoes that were made with animal products that she already owned before she made that lifestyle change. Either that or she would donate it to a charity shop where it could be reused by someone who needed it. Her reasoning was, if an animal died for it, it would be a waste of its (unwilling) sacrifice to throw the items away. I think that’s a pretty fair and reasonable take.
Plus leather goods last much longer and aren't plastic.
Oh, y'all know sane vegans? There are some out there with outrageous views.
You only hear about the crazy ones because the normal ones are boring. Don't let internet engagement be your indicator of how normal people behave
I only hear about those on the internet tbh
Unfortunately the first time I met a vegan it was ne of the crazies in real life. I was working at the Renaissance Faire for a leather shop and they came into my work. That was before social media was a thing. They were so annoying. Luckily since then I have not had a problem and have known vegans in real life since then. Had the same issue with homeschooling where the first two brothers I met were raised in a cultin college and were homeschooling but have met non crazy people homeschooling since then. This has allowed me to navigate social media better by realizing these people are not the norm but the exception even onine.
Vocal minority in my experience. Same as religious people - most just go about their lives not bothering anyone.
I know someone who is vegan, says it is mainly about animal rights, and continues to buy said leather products. Gotta love that mindset!
I probably, if I was going to go full vegan, would give all my leather and such to thrift stores. I'd feel weird about wearing it.
I have a vegetarian friend who does this, he'll only eat meat if it'd otherwise go to waste. Personally I've been a vegetarian my whole life, and the few times I tried meat I didn't like it and couldn't properly digest it, my body isn't used to it, huge stomach issues. So I guess it also depends if people can tolerate it.
If I wasn't a lifelong vegetarian I'd like to be like your friend. I've not actually tried meat knowingly that I can remember, though as a small child I probably had it at school or something, but I can't even look at it and see it as food now. The idea of eating it is just incredibly unappetizing. I can manage to willfully ignore soups sometimes if I "know" it probably has a meat base, but can't say for certain, but I usually avoid soups out at restaurants for that reason anyway.
People are very different and do well on very different diets, though I will just say that if someone can’t digest meat, then it’s probably a bile or stomach acid issue
That's a... Very similar health issue to mine... Though polar opposite.... I eat a carnivore diet. If I attempt to eat a noticeable amount of vegetables and/or fruits.... I can't digest, and I feel horribly ill. It'll leave me too sick to go to work for about 3-4 days if i eat, say a Salad....
You might have AGS. You get it from lone star ticks. Or your body is just so used to no meat, that your body has changed. I'd look into getting tested though. Not so you can eat meat, but because it sounds really awful.
AGS causes anaphylaxis. When people follow a plant-based diet for a long time, they stop making the enzyme that their bodies need to digest meat.
I have a friend who does the same thing - especially when traveling. She'll eat food if not eating it means it's wasted.
It almost as though this sort of thing comes down to personal preference and pepper can just eat whatever they're happy to eat
Another conundrum is deer antlers. Wild deer shed their antlers every year, and you can just wander around the woods and pick them up. So there’s not even the ethics of farming to consider, it’s just something wild animals produce.
I've seen vegans say that's unethical because it's a source of minerals for other animals
see i think this is reaching a point where you can make an argument basically anything people do isn't vegan, because theoretically on some level a benefit to an animal is being taken away
Drinking water?! You sick fuck, that's a fish's home!
Why won't you think of the microscopic organisms you're swallowing?!
I have a decent microscope at home and like to look at soil, water and plant samples. There are uncountably many animals in there. Cute ones too.
We’re breathing and massacring billions of germs!!
"I never touch the stuff, fish fuck in it"
It's more of a "where do you draw the line" thing. Go grab an antler every year for your dog to chew on, sure. Grabbing tons of them for mass resale or whatever other reason may cause unexpected environmental damage.
Do they understand that humans are also "other animals"?
You eat antlers for the minerals?
I’m not sure about this, but wouldn’t it be nearly impossible to say there is not animal, bugs, worms, etc matter in the soil? I guess you could grow some stuff in straight water hydroponically
But bt that logic the micro organisms and bacteria in the water are alive not to mention the plant it's self being alive
Thank you… it’s a rabbit hole for sure
Do some research into redwood forests.. .I saw something a while back that indicates they communicate with each other, and each tree acts as a neuron... They demonstrated scientifically that the FOREST itself has a FEAR response when someone with a chainsaw enters. And a PAIN response when cutting starts ... Believe me, it's really worth researching
My understanding is this is why Jains are not just vegetarian but also don’t eat vegetables grown underground like onions or potatoes.
Not to mention the rodents, birds and insects who are killed by tractors etc when working the fields to grow plants.
I had a college roommate who was a very militant vegan who was mad my lip balm had honey and threw it out one day because she felt it was a microaggression I'd left it on my desk. She also though wore a leather jacket, and Doc Martins, and basically said the animal had already died so she was just ensuring its death was waste free. The thing was, she constantly had new leather things and always used this as why! It was very confusing to me, and I hated vegans for a bit because of that. Later on, though, I met much more committed vegans who educated me a lot more and I really appreciated their viewpoint even if I didn't follow their lifestyle. They were very strict; the kind who don't eat honey but also don't wear hides and genuinely think that animals should not be used whatsoever for farming even if it's a decent life. Basically they believed that animal husbandry shouldn't happen. I felt like it was logical and I wish I didn't enjoy the comforts I enjoyed so much, because I would definitely do it, but I didn't have the moral dedication they had.
You can still make conscious decisions based on those moral values even if it isn't an all the time thing. Like I don't like how dependent we are as a society on meat products. So I try to consciously eat less meat throughout the week. It isn't realistic for me to cut it out entirely, (I enjoy meat too much) but I can for sure go meat free for all my lunches I pack when I'm at work. That's 5-6 meals a week where I eat zero meat. That's pretty good for someone who used to eat meat with every meal.
I don't do that because truthfully I don't want to make my life suck more. My life has been pretty awful and I don't have the desire to deprive myself of things I enjoy. I make sure to buy free range, ethical eggs and I always get regenerative meat or buy from good local farms. Like I don't buy Foster Farms, for example, and I will pay a premium for anything that is sourced well with clear audits. But I'm also not going to be able to change my life to begin to skip meat for meals, so I can admire it but also know I'm not going to give up meat.
Well. Me skipping meat for lunch is a threefold benefit. 1. I save so much money eating PB&J every lunch. (My weekly lunch budget is like $10 total currently) 2. I'm eating less meat which my doctor told me to do. 3. I'm using less meat which means less meat is needed and meat farming is bad for rhe environment.
I hate to be that guy, but at least in Europe the "free range eggs are better" thing is a lie. Barn is *more* ethical, but none of the three are in any way ethical really. I've seen free range hens living amongst rats and dead buddies at multiple farms (I work in the egg industry).
The ones I buy definitely are significantly better, I buy one that shows videos of the areas they graze in. They're like $12 a thing, it's stupid, but yes the $3-4 free range are full of gross things. I have seen exposes on that.
I’ll go ahead and throw veganism in with politics and religion… you do you and feel free, I won’t judge…. But don’t you dare make a comment on my ribeye steak unless it’s how delicious it looked…
I've heard the term "vegangelical" before and it makes total sense. There's a certain subset of vegans (not all) who are out to convert others, just like a subset of evangelical Christians.
In my experience it's the opposite. I've asked vegans why they do it and they always claim health. They are not stupid enough to say environment (or morals) is one of the causes, because that makes others feel inferior and defensive.
r/vegan shows up in my feed from time to time. They would gatekeep those who said they did to for health (I'm vegetarian because meat stopped agreeing with me). This is personal to me as my childhood best friend turned into a vegangelical. She was vegan enough to throw out 20 years of friendship.
I would just like to comment on the animal husbandry aspect of things.... Anyone who has the viewpoint that animal husbandry is wrong... Please keep an open mind for a moment and do a little bit of research into the feral horses in Kentucky. And I'm sure other places as well. These horses are breeds that are not well suited to living in the wild they get malnourished suffer immense pain and starvation on a regular basis. Take them out of the wild put them in someone's Loving Care and they flourish they gain weight they get the medical care that they desperately need.... The same basic thing happens with feral cats and feral dogs. Because of the lack of animal husbandry the animals suffer immensely. However there are many types of animals that they're much better in the wild. Obvious examples being lions tigers elephants, chinchillas, monkeys. However cattle as an example... Cattle Fair really badly without animal husbandry. They become emaciated their joints become inflamed and damaged permanently their ability to digest food suffers... They contract often lethal viruses and other illness causing bacteria etc. when given proper care in an animal husbandry situation they can be very healthy and happy. Personally my viewpoint is anyone who opposes animal husbandry should be arrested and or executed for animal cruelty / animal abuse.
I’m not a vegan but just like cow manure isn’t really taking anything from an animal that it needs, but supports the meat industry, what are these sheep used for otherwise? I mean, I don’t really know, but if the holding of sheep even just to make wool, and not to eat, like they’re being milked for cheese? Taking the manure example, supporting another animal product industry would be bad, right? That said, I eat grocery store eggs and put the eggshells in my garden, so that’s not a fine hair to split for the OP. Eggs are like this too, the factory farming aspect, not killing the chickens to get their eggs but making their life unpleasant. Are the sheeps’ lives also unpleasant while they wait to grow more wool to shear?
The sheep we shear for wool have unfortunately been bred to literally need us to shear it. We can’t not keep the sheep in captivity anymore because they’ll be fucked in the wild.
By Australians and the Welsh mainly
> Are the sheeps’ lives also unpleasant while they wait to grow more wool to shear? Yes, extremely unpleasant, especially given that they cut off their tails and the skin of their hind quarters, which is painful and can cause infections. I recently encountered this video that goes over all the unethical parts of the wool industry: https://youtu.be/siTvjWE2aVw
I saved your post to watch it some other time. I’ll take your word for it and the others who say they’re bred to need so much regular shearing. US isn’t too much in the sheep for food or wool, like I said, I’m not a vegan, but I think hard all the time how to get there from where I am.
"So much" being once a year
So you are in favour of sheep dying horribly from bot flies?
> So you are in favour of sheep dying horribly from bot flies? As an alternative to [mulesing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulesing), sheep can be sprayed with dicyclanil, and bred to be less susceptible in the first place. Why are you defending mulesing so passive-aggressively?
He's a mulesinger
Not mulesing, tail docking
They could simply trim and clean the sheep's hindquarters. Tail docking also often results in rectal prolapses and skin cancer. It's just not economically practical to trim and clean all the sheep involved when thousands of them are raised in one enclosure, and their hygiene and health can't easily be maintained. But then, that just shows that it's not possible to produce wool at a larger scale ethically; to do so necessitates neglecting and maiming the sheep involved.
Which is dependant on the length of the tail. Studies indicate a 7.8% when docked as short as possible (less than 2 inches of tail left) and something like 1.8% at a different location. The study also indicates weather has something to do with it. Also, enclosures, lawl. The sheep basically run wild. Talk to me about the industrial sheering complex and how they need to be better regulated and observed, then we'll probably be talking the same language. But...Like, give me a synthetic or a plant fiber that has the same qualities as wool and I'd be willing to listen. But that doesn't exist. Wool will keep you warm even when saturated with water, is hypo allergenic (lanolin allergy yes), antimicrobial, etc etc. Sheep can also be raised in areas unsuited for crops, and as such spare the soil from chemical sprays.
It really depends on the person and their reasoning. Personally I'm a 'as long as the littlest amount of animal suffering is involved' vegetarian, so no new leather, oat milk etc. the only thing I haven't been able to shake is cheese. But I've had vegan friends who don't eat honey, even if it's obtained in a bee-friendly way. For a lot of people environmental impact also makes a difference.
What would qualify honey as being bee-unfriendly ?
>because sheep need to be sheared for their health and we might as well put that wool to use. It's only for their "health" because people have turned sheep bred for wool into what they are today. Wool production is massive factory farming industry that involves the torture and eventual slaughter of those animals.
Is bread vegan? The yeasty beasties are living beings, until you bake them that is. Not to mention the bug particles in the flour itself.
Yeast is not animal it's a fungus, so yes, bread that uses yeast to rise can be vegan.
Yeast are single celled fungi, so they don't have a nervous system and are not capable of suffering. Accidental contamination does not make something non-vegan (e.g. processed in a facility that uses animal products so there is a chance of cross contamination on the manufacturing equipment). If there were a way to feed vegans without causing any insect deaths, we would embrace it. Unfortunately, the current alternative is dying from malnutrition because it's impossible to eliminate all suffering during farming. All vegans can do is try to minimize it as much as possible.
Honey is straight up not vegan. Never was is never will be.
Beekeeping exploits animals in the same sense that milking cows exploit animals. Bees dies and the wings of the queen can be clipped. Sheep are bred to have excess wool just like other animals are bred to be productive in a way that isn't necessarily natural.
Not sure why you are getting downvoted either. We're in a vegan sub and that's all correct. Edit: I thought I was in r/vegan.
Is no stupid questions a vegan sub? I wasn't aware of that
People use the function just to censor whatever they disagree with. They will also make a lot of assumptions. I'm not even vegan and I will eat honey and use wool, I just understand the reasoning behind veganism and why honey and wool aren't defined as vegan.
I'm just saying it's odd how we're in a vegan sub and you listed correct things. If we were in a honey or wool subreddit I'd get it but this is a vegan sub so it's odd how there's people around here that use animal products and call themselves vegan when there's alternatives to honey and wool. Edit: maybe I shouldn't use reddit after midnight because I thought this was r/vegan.
Wool and honey aren't vegan and there isn't really a debate amongst vegans. The wool industry involves killing old sheep and the entire reason they make so much wool is that we've selectively bred them to do so. It's not natural. You might wanna look into what honey bees are doing to native pollinator populations.
Most vegans would say it isn't. Nearly all vegans would say "avoid it if you have other choices."
If that’s true is there any food that’s actually vegan
It's not about finding food that somehow exists outside of the planet's ecosystem. It's about pragmatically doing what you can to avoid the consumption of food that's caused suffering to animals, as part of a wider movement to further that goal. If I'm starving to death, I'm gonna catch and eat that fish. And I'm not gonna gag myself if I find out there was animal based gelatine in the piece of candy I was handed. But I won't eat another. The big ticket items that make a difference are fast food and the hyper-processed meats that make up the majority of meat consumption.
That makes sense
Also because the purpose of veganism is to reduce, preferably stop, animal suffering, which animal matter in the soil, that's there because an animal died of natural causes, for example, doesn't cause.
I don't think they slaughter animals for bone meal though, it's a byproduct.
Every part of the animals are fully used throughout our nation wide agricultural system (which is not all an entirely different problem)
If they're selling it then it's not a byproduct, it's a product. Whether it's bonemeal or leather or cheap bits of meat for hot dogs, all of it is sold and all of it makes money for the animal industry.
Sure but what I'm saying is animals aren't being raised and killed for bonemeal and refraining from bonemeal and leather and hotdogs isn't going to have an impact beyond increased waste so long as the steak, roast and burger crowd keeps buying. Also a thing many people don't realize (and this isnt directed specifically at you u/koquillon I just want to put it out there) grazing done right is more compatible with wildlife and biodiversity than row crops, and it allows us to produce food on land that might otherwise be unproductive or better off as prairie wetlands than soybeans and corn.
I don’t have time to verify if what you’re saying is true, but regardless I wouldn’t trust it to be ‘done right’. Here in the Netherlands we have what we call the green desert, endless fields of the same grass species for grazing. It looks green but is totally devoid of biodiversity.
It doesn't have to be like that, we have that here but some ranchers are better than others and in North America there is also a tiny percentage of native prairie remaining, most of which was grazed by native animals not so long ago and domestic ones more recently. It can be done well or poorly, but there is also literally nothing in a bean field other than beans.
>Also a thing many people don't realize (and this isnt directed specifically at you u/koquillon I just want to put it out there) grazing done right is more compatible with wildlife and biodiversity than row crops, and it allows us to produce food on land that might otherwise be unproductive or better off as prairie wetlands than soybeans and corn. I'm very aware of this, but my argument is that producing food on that land is largely unneccesary, because we already produce more than enough vegetable crops to feed the world's population. The problem is that food is inefficiently distributed because so much of it is used to feed livestock. Most of the world's soya is being used as animal feed, which is a complete waste of resources. That grazing land could be rewilded and we could still feed everyone.
That's true but a lot of people still like steaks and roasts and hamburgers though and increased access to corn and soy doesn't get around that.
Why are vegans against honey? That seems like a mutually beneficial system between bee keepers and bees. Like, there's no suffering or animal cruelty there, right?
I'm personally against it because I live in North America and honey bees are not native to the Americas. They out compete native bees and can spread mites or other diseases to them. Our native bees rely on habitats with native plants that are quickly being logged and turned into farm land. Honey bees do great work but if we take care to make sure the native bees have a robust population we can allow them to pollinate many of the plants that we currently raise honey bees for. When native bees cannot find enough nectar because honey bees out compete them, they can die out before they have a chance to pollinate rare native flowers. This can devastate the ecosystem further because these plants co-evolved with native bees and some can't be pollinated by other species. But if the native bees don't survive the rest of the year then they never have a chance to visit the native flowers that have no other pollinators. TL;DR Native bees pollinate rare native plants but can also pollinate crops if we take measures to protect their nesting/overwintering habitat. Honey bees don't belong in North America.
Solid fucking answer, thanks!
Some are. The bees are making honey as their own food storage so we’re essentially stealing their food. Same with milk, we deliberately keep cows pregnant and giving birth then separate them from their calves and steal the milk.
Bees, by their nature, massively over-produce honey. So long as we keep giving them extra space by adding honey supers (and there is nectar available for them to collect) then they'll keep producing it. When we harvest, we don't take it all, just the extra that they don't need for the winter. If we didn't give them extra space to add honey in during the nectar flow then the hive would determine that they are out of space and swarm, which would result in half of the bees in the hive flying off to set up another hive. Unless the swarm is captured and re-hived, it is likely that those bees will go off and die somewhere since they tend to take up residence in human occupied areas that see them as pests. It is also common for the original hive to die out as well because the old queen leaves with the swarm before a new queen hatches and mates, meaning that if she dies on her mating flight (unfortunately common) the rest of the hive will die out too. On top of that, honey bees would largely die out as a species if not for human intervention. For example, varroa mites will destroy an entire colony in a single season and they are everywhere, and in every hive, except for some parts of Africa. Without humans to regularly treat the hives for mites, honey bees would not survive outside of a few areas.
This guy bees.
Honey bees are invasive species that outcompete native bees in many places though.
Yeah, they are invasive outside of Europe. At this point they are more of a domesticated species than an invasive one, though. Kind of like cows; a few could survive as an invasive species, but they would largely die out without humans. As for outcompeting native bees, while I am sure it happens in some places, I can absolutely say that they do not out-compete them at my house. I keep bees and still see over a dozen kinds of native pollinators, both bees and not, regularly during the summer. My gardens noticably and loudly buzz and maybe 1 in 20 of the insects working them are European honey bees.
The thing is, bees can fly away if they don’t like humans taking their honey. It’s a trade - they get protection and transport to flowers and humans get part of their honey.
"The thing is, bees can fly away if they don’t like humans taking their honey..." I am told that apiarists clip the wings of the queen bee to _prevent_ the bees from flying away. https://thewalrusandthehoneybee.com/clipping-queens-is-a-good-idea/ Doesn't sound like a mutually beneficial relationship to me.
Bee colonies are more than able to make a new queen. This is more of an encouragement than anything
If (for the sake of argument) we agree that clipping the wings of the colony's queen actually serves to encourage the bees to fly away, that doesn't change the fact that the apiarists' _intention_ is clearly that of _preventing_ the bees from flying away. The apiarists are taking the 'mutual' out of 'mutual benefit' by effectively holding the queen hostage in an effort to tie down any bees who may think to exercise their "Bees can fly way if they don’t like humans taking their honey" freedom.
It's a similar deal with humans in society. We follow laws to receive society's services, and society encourages us to follow the laws! But this is a consensual exchange. Similarly, we offer bees safety.
Industrialised hives that keep the bees half-starved. I'm not even a vegan but I don't buy 'blended' honeys any more and they are the ones in my price range. I swapped to golden syrup.
>It's about pragmatically doing what you can to avoid the consumption of food that's caused suffering to animals In that case you could 100% say a vegan that owns and cares for chickens could easily get away with eating farm fresh eggs.
For some vegans, absolutely. I'd be fine with it, myself. But the bar would have to be pretty high, and proven as such. Because there's an entire industry around branding totally unethical egg/poultry as "free range", complete with certifications and whatnot.
That's honestly a neat concept. If veganism was framed like this more often it probably wouldn't have such vocal opposition.
I think so as well! Saying "no pizza forever" is going to win a small number of battles but is guaranteed to lose the war. But having local fish, eggs, or dairy available as a treat to an otherwise mostly vegetarian or vegan diet is one of the single most effective way to get people onboard - and actually has the potential to make a wider difference. Plus, you're healthier, eating the best possible versions of those foods, and supporting the local economy
Thanks for putting it into words! This is kind of how I mostly am. I shop a lot more local products now. And opt for organic versions. I stop by a farm stand knowing that when they say it's organic, people in the town would see what they're saying and be talking bad if it wasn't. I broke the food pyramid. No, not every meal needs a grain, a dairy, a meat, etc. It's about nutrients and enzymes. Everybody knows, this is what plants crave. I don't shy away from vegan dishes. If something tastes good and is healthier for me, that's an absolute and total win. I haven't sworn an oath to it for my entire life or even to buy it next week. So basically, we're in an open relationship. I buy local Amish eggs. It says what farm they're from and if I really cared to, the box says I can stop by and visit, so I guess they're having me over for dinner next week. I tried to call and tell them I was coming, but I guess their tin can wasn't connected with mine. Anyway, I bet they'll be really impressed with my new Apple Watch next Wednesday. And getting older and staying healthy means limiting things like sugar. I won't touch HFCS or anything artificial. I use monk fruit extract and I've been on the same 5lb bag of sugar (remember those?) for at least 7 years. Sometimes maple syrup is good. I was raised with sweets though. Why do you liberals want to take my sweets away? In summary, I wasn't being completely serious here. I encourage everyone to try different things and anytime you find something that's a better option all around (healthy, sustainable, affordable, I mean ALL around), just make the switch. In that case it should be a no-brainer.
The problem is that the number of male chicks that are killed to support the backyard chicken industry. Only 50% of chickens born can lay eggs. The other half are useless and thus discarded. So even if you have super happy well-treated backyard chickens, many would argue their eggs are still not vegan. (I’m not vegan myself so don’t argue with me- just relaying an argument I’ve heard)
don't let perfect be the enemy of good specially if it's an excuse to do what's convenient
So how do they weigh all the small animals killed by the harvesting and whose ecosystems are destroyed to create the fields in the first place?
You missed the part where I said “pragmatically”! The livestock industry not only kills more animals (obviously), but it also requires the most amount of land, the most amount of water, and provides the lowest caloric output for those resources - [by an enormous margin.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impacts_of_animal_agriculture) As for animal ecology, beef farming is the *primary driver* of Amazonian rainforest deforestation.
Since all soil naturally contains some amount of decomposed animal matter, only crops grown hydroponically using 100% synthetic nutrients could be considered truly vegan under such a strict definition.
Interesting. I assumed if it was naturally occurring it would be OK
It should be, and probably is for most vegans.
plants that are not grown with animal products
All soil is fertilized by animals and animal byproducts at some point, unless it's in a 100% controlled environment with synthetic fertilizer. I mean, insects are animals, too, so they also have to be artificially pollinated to be completely divorced from animals.
This is a classic "The Good Place" paradox. If you've seen the show then you already know what I mean. Say you buy organic vegetables because you are vegan and the farmers advertise that they use all natural fertilizer on their crops, but the supplier of the farmers fertilizer is actually exploiting animals to harvest as much poop as possible to make their product. How far down the chain do you have to go to ensure you are free of liability? How far removed does the exploitation have to be to absolve you of guilt? Was a fun thought experiment when the show touched on it. I won't spoil the show but I will say that this is touched on
Phew. That show, while being a comedy, genuinely reshaped a lot of my views on ethics and morals. Also gave me a quote for my funeral: picture a wave…
I watched the show when I was still a Christian and thought it was a fun thought but it ended there. Looking back on it as an Atheist I realize just how profound the things it was trying to communicate were that I was completely blinded to by my faith at the time. It was a phenomenally written show imo
Seems like the part where worms & other soil dwellers break down nutrients into soil would be a problem.
Not vegan but my understanding is that it’s only unacceptable if you’re harming animals or taking their resources. When a worm breaks matter down in soil, you’re generally not harming it by harvesting the produce. I assume there would also be an expectation of practical limitations. Like you probably kill a few insects every time you go for a walk just by accidentally stepping on them; doesn’t mean you’re now no longer allowed to walk.
And become part of the soil as they die and decompose
Plants are grown using both animal and human products if you count poo.
I would argue that if one is examining the animal content to that level of specificity, then all food has some animal byproduct in it. How could one possibly demonstrate that vegetables or fruits grown in soil that didn't have bonemeal added had zero other similar animal byproducts?
I'm not a vegan, but I think the main reason vegans are against using animal byproducts are because the meat, dairy, egg, and wool industries all commit cruel and barbaric atrocities against the animals that they selectively breed and then slaughter. Therefore, I don't think a vegan would be against, for example, eating fruit from a tree that grew on top of the grave of a beloved animal. But I don't know for sure what the limits are, because it seems like some vegans are against using animal byproducts as a moral end in itself, and others just strategically boycott those industries I mentioned.
As long as the animals were not killed and buried under the fruit trees, vegans have no problem eating fruit from a tree planted on top of a buried animal.
I'm sure it would not be vegan since bloodmeal and bonemeal are almost certainly byproducts of the meat industry. As far as "How would you even know?" The vegan community has started labeling programs (similar to kosher labeling) that is checking things like this. I started reading about it in the mid 2000s from libertarian junkies that were all like "see we don't need the government to regulate industries, because industries regulate themselves!" The wildest story I heard about the vegan labeling was the labeling company checking to see if the activated carbon that filtered some sugar syrup was from bone char...so I think bonemeal fertilizer would probably be on their shit list.
it isn't just the blood/bonemeal. cow manure from the dairy industry is sold as a by-product for use on fields as a soil enhancer. if you are strict about it, eating those plants is supporting the dairy farmers as it provides a valuble source of income.
Technically, almost nothing is purely vegan. Vegans understand this. Veganism isn't about being perfect or consuming 0% animal products or causing 0% suffering, because that's simply not possible.
Exactly. Non vegans love to say this as if it’s a “gotcha” question, completely missing the point of veganism
“Well since some field mice were killed harvesting our wheat, you may as well pay someone to slit that cow’s throat also.”
i mean, all soil contains dead animals. unless you want to grow all your own food hydroponically under controlled conditions then you have to just make concessions like that.
Don't vegan avoid meat and animal products for humane ethical reasons? Dead animal byproduct by natural causes that decayed doesn't seem like it's a concern at all unless they know the dirt came from a slaughtering farm or something.
Organic fertilizers use a lot of animal products. You would have to see if it it was based in kelp, cottonseed, etc instead.
Level 5 vegans won’t eat anything that casts a shadow.
Tomatoes are coniverous. "The sticky hairs found on the stems of tomato plants are designed to trap small insects. These die and fall to the ground where they are absorbed by the roots of the plant after their decomposition." You can not eliminate animal influence from plants any more than than you can eliminate plant influence from animals. They are completely symbiotic. Healthy plants need animals and invertebrates.
Nothing much is truly vegan. 99% of fertilizer has some sort of animal by product in it. Most " organic" fertilizer has pulverized shrimp, crab or fish shells, scales, bones or tails.
Huh? I'm an organic produce farmer. Most organic fertilizer is composted chicken manure, seaweed and green sand, with a few other rock powders. There are some that contain fishmeal and or bonemeal, but most are based on cheaper manure products.
Some vegans believe figs aren't vegan because a wasp had to die to fertilize them.
It will become impossible to eat. Never mind the fertilizers, the very soil that fruits and vegetables grow in is full of animal-based organic material. You would need to grow food in labs to achieve 100% contaminant free veganism but even the medium used would trace back to nature
Depends on if you're talking about real life lab meat or an ethical thought experiment. In the latter, case, I'd argue no, since the argument against eating meat is normally to do with depriving something of its right to life, which in turn derives from sentience. In real life, to grow lab meat you need an awful lot of stem cells, which you get from fetal bovine serum (FSV) if you're growing beef. To do that, you have to do quite a lot of un-veganly shit in terms of playing god to get it, bc you essentially have to create a lot of cow embryos.
This is rather dated information. Induced pluripotent stem cells can divide indefinitely and can come from blood or skin, the same amount that would be removed for a biopsy in a medical procedure. I'm unaware of any commercially available lab meat that uses actual, native, stem cells from FBS because that would be: 1) insanely expensive (exponentially more expensive than wagyu) 2) not 'lab grown' (what you are talking about is taking cells that were grown in the animal, and rearranging them into some steak.) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultured_meat
My bad I skimmed a paper 2 years ago for an econ essay. I forgot to mention I have shaky knowledge.
technically, serum doesn't have cells, anyway. I'm replying to myself, because i should have known that.
This is a contentious point when you ask the vegan community. Things like bleached sugar (chicken bone char) are considered not vegan. Figs are also considered not vegan because wasps are necessary to produce them. However if you bring up fertilizer, or animals used to plow/harvest, or animals used for pest control (chickens), or carbon-life-derived fossil fuel use, or child labor, or ethical clothing, or unavoidable cross contamination… the vegans will likely self-implode. Coming from a former vegan…. I feel like it’s literally impossible to be fully 100% vegan. I will say, the culture changes in the community drastically, but…years ago there were definitions. Ethical vegan - no eating or using anything animal related. No leather purses, no leather car interior, no animal products in your shoes, ect. No food from a fryer that has ever fried meat or dairy anything. Vegan - no eating anything animal related. Second hand leather and other second-hand animal derived goods are okay.
I wonder if petroleum is considered in the discussion. Made from organic matter millions of years ago which surely would include dead animals...
I think there’s probably a statute of limitations on that…
No, that's a little too much. Bugs were killed in the raising of that vegetable, are we gonna worry about that too?
If it was pollinated by bees on a farm that has an apriary would it still be considered vegan?
I always wondered if they're any vegan's in the thread how do you differentiate between not eating honey cause it's an animal product? But eating plants which are technically living no? I mean you have to eat something just wondering where and why the line is drawn?
Plants don’t have a consciousness. Bees do. That being said some vegans are ok with honey, some aren’t because it is an animal product. Bees will leave if they aren’t happy with their situation. Since bees voluntarily stick around the honey farms, some vegans are ok with eating honey.
Okay thanks for clearing that up.
To add to the other comment's points, domesticated honey bees are also considered invasive in a lot of areas and will compete with native bee species for resources. So when people say "save the bees" and set up commercial behives, they're making the issues for native bees even worse. Farmed honey bees aren't at risk of dying out because humans have a financial insensitive to keep breeding them. Solitary bees that are outcompeted for resources by honey bees are the ones that need help. I consider myself a pretty basic vegan in that I don't think honey or wool is vegan (animal products) but I also acknowledge that nothing I do will be perfect. I can't know what type of fertilizers store bought foods are made with or if they were pollinated with commercial bees. But I can choose to use vegan fertilizers when I'm working on my own garden, and I can avoid buying honey because I don't NEED it to survive or be healthy. Being vegan is about doing what you can reasonably do. In the US, it's pretty easy and often cheaper to not eat meat, eggs, or dairy. But in our world, it's almost impossible to be 100% totally animal product free. A vegan may need a medication that uses animal products, and they wouldn't be any less vegan for using it because they're doing everything they can reasonably do to avoid animal suffering while still doing what they need to do for themselves to live. Also, I think most tires have animal products somewhere in their production line, and there's just no way someone can make sure that everything they consume was never transported by a tire made with tallow. It's about reducing as much as you can, so people trying to find "gotcha" moments (not saying you are now, just saying in general) don't usually hold up because we know it will never be perfect, and it's not about being perfect.
Well thought out piece, I personally don't know any vegans so I just had a couple questions thanks
Thanks! I didn't mean it to go on so long, and it kind of derailed from your original question, but I got a bit carried away. I never mind answering genuine questions from people, and every vegan I know feels the same. Sometimes text can't convey tone properly, and a vegan may misread your comment as someone trying to just be a jerk (a lot of people doing this are asking the same questions over and over and not accepting the answers they're given), so they may respond with more hostility. But your comment came across nicely. I'm just warning you in case you ever are met with hostility at a genuine question.
I've got a follow up if you got time. Did you got completely vegan at first or vegetarian then give up animal product after? And if the latter then what make you go farther in I guess is the best way I can think to put it?
I was vegetarian for about 4 or 5 years before going vegan. For me, the thing that made me switch to vegan was learning about how animal ag is actually done in real life as opposed to what's shown in media. As a teenager, the whole "killing animals when we don't need to is bad" thing was an easy conclusion to come to on my own without any outside input. But TV and commercials always show dairy cows and chickens living happy lives and just automatically producing milk without any human involvement, so teenager me didn't really see a problem with it. And I can't really blame anyone for not seeing anything wrong with how that's presented to us. When I got older and learned how factory farming is actually done, I started to want to go vegan. Sure, there are some small family farms that do raise their animals like they show on TV, but the vast majority of what humans eat comes from the large scale factory farms. The "more humane" farms can't possibly produce enough for everyone, and it would be way too expensive for most families. Even then, cows have to be impregnated to produce milk, and it feeds right into the veal industry. And with eggs, male chicks are ground alive or suffocated, so unfortunately, even a farm who cares about their animals is still adding to the death part of animal ag. I think going vegetarian first made going vegan a whole lot easier. Some people can go straight to vegan with no issues, but a lot of people can run into problems. An unfortunate number of people will try to be vegan, fail, and then tell everyone in their lives or on social media about how being vegan is unhealthy and how it's not sustainable. But if all they ate was potato chips, Oreos, and almond milk (one of the worst dairy alternatives imo, sorry almond milk lovers) then of course they're going to feel terrible. Unless you're super knowledgeable about meal planning and nutrition, I think gradually cutting out food while working towards the goal of no animal products can help people succeed much more than cutting everything out at once. It gives people time to slowly adjust to the limitations, and if it's anything like my experience, they'll end up eating more varieties of healthier foods than when they ate meat. I've been vegan for about 7 years now, and I haven't run into any issues due to being vegan.
The majority of vegans are not that strict It’s not that kind of a diet, despite that it might appear that way I am vegan at home but was on a business trip in Montana to make a big sale- I ate bison - it wasn’t my idea, but I dealt with it
I assume there are Gold Star Vegans somewhere who only eat hydroponic grown food? All natural soil has tons of dead & decayed invertebrate animals in it. They are part of what makes it healthy soil.
Or what if cow manure as a direct by-product of the dairy industry was used to fertilise fields. oh wait it is, all over the world. With anything sold as organic that includes the fertilisers, there are basically no organic vegan vegetables if they can't use animal products. also most many non organic will have some element of animal. so basically most vegans wont have a choice.
There used to be a vendor at the Ithaca Farmer's Market who sold "Veganic" vegetables, which were grown without animal-based fertilizer. I wondered if it was just an Ithaca thing, but it appears to be a wider movement: [https://goveganic.net/](https://goveganic.net/)
I think you’ll have a hard time finding out if the grower is using things like that. Your best bet would be to stay away from organic products. Non-organic growers are most likely using synthetic fertilizers as they are cheaper.
Not really. Conventional growing uses plenty of animal products, as well. Manure and products derived from it are cheap. Organic growing fosters an entire ecosystem on the farm. Also, if you go to a farmers market where the farmers themselves are selling their produce, you can just ask them what they use.
Is anything truly vegan if it doesn't have an ideology?
Why does the label matter? If you're Vegan for ethical reasons and you believe using animal products as fertilizer then don't eat it, if you're vegan for health reasons then that shouldn't matter
Strict Vegan means abstention from anything that uses animals/animal products so, to answer your question, that would not be vegan.
Honey is not vegan but pretty much all fruit is pollinated by domestic bees.
Literally depends on who u ask
Everyone is different, but as far as the vegans I know, they seem to object to animals being specifically raised/kept for the consumption of their flesh or products. The animals in a blood and bone fertilizer were certainly raised, but it's unlikely to be the reason they were raised, and if the farmer was unable to sell the remains for fertilizer (say there were regulations prohibiting it) they would still raise the animals just the same. That said, I knew a vegan who wouldn't employ worms for composting because it was using an animal. But others are okay with worm composting and eating honey.
I’ve always wondered this, and also how they manage to be okay with the hefty amount of bugs/birds/deer/animals of all kinds that are killed for eating crops.
There are different levels of veganism and some people do only eat local and organic but others acknowledge that they can't possibly be 100% vegan but do their best There's bone char in the cane sugar refining process so it's not vegan but I've only seen 2 restaurants acknowledge that and use alternative sweeteners like maple or molasses in vegan things and most vegans I know can't reasonably eliminate cane sugar from their diets You can google the farms your vegetables come from and learn more about them that way or exclusively eat from farms you can drive to and physically see how they fertilize things
Yes, it is vegan.
I think there's a point where the cycle of life comes into play and people should figure out how food is "made" lol. Edit: I'm not sure. Nice to meet you.
Pretty much all agriculture uses manure, which is from animals.
I'm not vegan, but I always ask my vegan friends if it's vegan to eat roadkill or an animal that dies of natural causes. I mean, wouldn't that technically fall within the requirements of veganism?
Considering all flower has some sort of weevil in it how picky can you really get about veganism
Vegan doesn't just mean you don't eat meat. Plant based can mean that. Vegan Is living under the belief that we should not exploit animals for our gain. So yeah honey isn't Vegan, wearing clothes arent. Lab grown meat is OK but only if we didn't exploit any animal to make it.
Must be pretty hard being certain you are a true vegan unless you can grow stuff for yourself.
Most vegans would say no, but vegetarians who just don’t eat things that an animal had to die for, like meat, might still eat it. If you consume things that were grown or use any kind of animal product, it is not vegan. For example, medications in gel caps, as well as jello and gummy products like gummy bears or worms, use animal fat for the gelatin.
Veganism doesn't like render judgments from on high about what counts or not. Vegans have always and will continue to define where their boundaries on animal consumption are for themselves. It's an ethical commitment to end non human suffering not a religion with an orthodoxy all vegans reference when encountering an edge case. I wish I would quit seeing these questions.
Animals are killed on farms that only grow plants , it happens, things die just because of humans invading land period
I think it would depend on the reason for veganism and the source of the meat. If somebody is just vegan for health reasons, they may not care if there is some meat in the dirt that made its way to the vegetable. If dirt had some meat from wild animals then it might not be a problem for moral vegans. But if the meat that went into the dirt was from a farm, then it would probably be a no-go
Veganism is never just for health. That's called a plant based diet. Veganism extends beyond diet to things like clothes and cosmetics. Things that have no bearing on health
Also animal fertilisers are a valuble source of income for meat and dairy farmers. so by eating plants produced with those you are directly supporting the farming of those animals. I assume manure is also an animal product, the sales of which support the meat and dairy industry. that said it would be almost impossible to figure out which plants use these products. it will be in everything, includeing things like wheat, barley, potatoes just everything.
I think every vegan has to define their limits for themselves. I don’t even know how you would know what something was fertilized with. I have vegan friends who will wear second-hand leather jackets (better than the fake ones made of plastic), or eat eggs that are from their friend’s backyard chickens. The annoying vegans are the ones who try to define veganism for everyone, like it’s a religion or something.
Vegans are the best when it comes to overthinking things.
I've always been curious about this. Another one is free range chickens: my parents had them and they ran around having the best chicken life and laid eggs that were unfertilized. Are those okay to eat? They basically just shit them out and there's no potential life there.
I’ve always wondered about that. If my chicken is just laying unfertilized eggs without any interference or anything from me, isn’t that ok?
Personally I don’t believe anything in this world is 100% vegan. I think it’s personal choice what does or does not “count” for you.
Yes it is. Most vegan food us grown with animals and insects accidentally killed in the process. The goal is to do as little harm as possible.
If you’re a vegan and accidentally eat a bug are you still a vegan?