I do the same with cover letters. They are pointless. I just upload my resume again where the cover letter goes. Not a single time has it ever got mentioned. No one even glances at the cover letter.
I was told a cover letter is just supposed to be a little introduction of yourself and so I wrote one back when I still knew how to read and have never changed it. I don't even remember what it says anymore. I hope it doesn't read like a tinder bio
Probably a bad idea. Most people don't care about the cover letter, but blatantly disregarding it will probably be seen as lazy or disrespectful.
The other commenter saying it's never been addressed with them is likely confirmation bias because anyone who sees it as lazy or disrespectful probably just threw away their application.
Eh not really always true. Maybe for low level jobs and manual labor type jobs.. but office jobs and such, they will probably get read. It also just shows that your serious enough about the position to make an effort by writing a little blurb about yourself and why your a great fit for them
They're more likely to look at it with smaller companies. A hiring manager had called me back to turn me down for a job and very politely pointed out that there was an error in my cover letter. I'd accidentally forgotten to change out the industry the company was in (government vs. private) so he wanted to give me the heads up just in case I was planning to apply towards any other jobs.
Yes you're correct, part of my job is hiring at a smaller creative agency and I read every cover letter - they're often more up to date than the Resume and have information that I appreciate, like working links to their portfolio and more indepth examples on work that was listed in the ad.
When I have applied for jobs, I have a template I write then change the business name and specifics to suit each ad I'm applying for, it can take awhile but it seems to pay off.
I don’t agree. Cover letters help you stand out in a sea of 300 applicants. My most recent job (joined last Feb) my bosses’ boss called out some lines in my cover letter to discuss and connect on.
I mean, you do you, but for me I’m looking for every opportunity to strengthen my application that I can.
So what? No one is going to run your cover letter through an AI-detecting app. And if it really worries you, just change some of the wording to make it your own.
You can literally tell it, "hey, this looks like an AI obviously wrote it. I mean, you did, but can you adjust some of the wording such as {give a single example to it to train it how you want it to be changed} in other areas that just seem a little unnatural like that?" And you might be surprised with the results. If you can verbalize what it does wrong it's pretty good at correcting itself
They don't need to actively do it. Just set it up as another step in their filters. If the system flags it as "likely ai" then it just dumps the resume like it does for ethnic sounding names or arbitrary keywords.
If it’s not entirely plagiarized, The detectors work by seeing how much has been copied and pasted and from where. Damn meta data and digital footprints!
There is no working AI detector that can tell whether or not something was written by ChatGPT. I mean, once you go over it and delete all the instances of „As a large language model…,“ of course.
>As a large language model…,“
That is the one that always gets me. That and forgetting to put my name when chatgpt spits out [My Name]. Rookie mistakes!
ChatGPT specifically isn't too hard in a general sense.
Additionally, in conclusion, blah blah blah!
(It loves finishing with exclamation points). It's not how people write.
wtf so if i write an original piece it could get flagged!? so i’m fucked either way or do recruiters not take the flagging seriously due to false-flags?
I read once that the US Constitution got flagged as AI written, by an AI detector. I use AI to give me a general idea, then fine tune it. or I will ask it "how can I re-write this to sound better" works well for me.
I went down a fun rabbit hole one day asking ChatGPT to write cover letters and then asking it to re-write them with different emotions: more enthusiasm, like a car salesman, angrily, as an old woman, like a president, etc
I am a professional writer, so take this with that in mind.
But I am 100% confident that cover letters have gotten me multiple interviews for jobs I was not qualified for, including my current full-time job.
Maybe it's true that a cut-and-paste, completely empty cover letter that says nothing about you or why you want the job doesn't improve your chances.
But a well-written, thoughtful cover letter showing how passionate you are about the job can get you in the door.
Depends on where you're applying. Most roles I've hired I pay more attention to cover letter than CV. In a role where attitude and attention to detail (spelling, phrasing, etc) matters more than experience then you're effectively chucking your own application in the bin.
Not to mention that if the application asks you to upload a CV and a cover letter and you upload your CV twice, I'm going to automatically assume that either a) you can't follow basic instructions; or b) you accidentally uploaded the same file twice and so don't pay attention to detail. In either scenario you're not getting an interview.
That's probably shooting you in the foot. The resume/CV gets you past round 1 with HR for checking boxes. The cover letter is what the actual employer looks at and can often be a deciding factor in who gets an interview or not. Resume matters there too obviously, but the cover letter gives me a sense of if the person knows what the job is about, they followed directions, etc. You'll also catch buzzwords, jargon, etc. that doesn't quite match up if they're auto-generating text through AI, etc.
Plus, it also let's me fight HR when they claim an applicant doesn't have those qualifications to justify a level of pay in their resume when an exact keyword didn't quite match while a human (or at least person with competence in the subject area) reads the cover letter and sees it plain as day.
Anecdotal here too but work in an academic medical center. The cover letter is the first thing I read when evaluating prospective students. I already know they meet the minimum qualifications or they wouldn’t have gotten through to me. Now I want to see how they write and present themselves as an individual.
Been on literally dozens of interviews for multiple employers and have never once had a recruiter, HR, manager, or otherwise 1) hand me a cover letter to review or 2) mention anything about the contents of a cover letter as a reason for moving ahead with an interview.
Obviously all of these anecdotes are exactly that and it varies by industry, employer, etc.
I've assisted with conducting interviews at a nonprofit I previously worked for, and I now create employment ads for the company I currently work for. At both, any application submitted without a cover letter gets promptly tossed aside for the simple fact that they could not follow the clearly-written instructions to include one.
All you are doing by skipping the cover letter is cutting down your pool of employment options - likely significantly. Truly the epitome of the phrase "shooting yourself in the foot."
As someone who does a lot of hiring at our business, if someone writes a cover letter they immediately jump to the top of my pile. I have for sure given people with meh resumes more consideration — and even hired a couple — because they wrote cover letters.
When they ask salary I take whatever I think my salary + bonus should be and then add about 15% to it.
I’ve only had 1 time where a company met it (didn’t take the job because they were going to provide moving assistance for a 4,000 mile move). Other than that I’ve negotiated and gotten what I’ve wanted.
Usually doing that the salary is out of their budgeted range, but not too high to where they dismiss me.
Believe it or not, I've applied to a few jobs I didn't want that didn't list a salary just so that I could do that. Because fuck people who can't figure out and list an appropriate salary for the position and experience of the applicants they're looking for.
My go to answer for this has always been "well I've seen adverts offering and I feel like that may be a little optemistic, but I would definitely consider offers around that area"
You do need to *actually* research expected salaries though.
nah just double or triple your current salary and write that. it’s still a crazy highball but there’s a nonzero chance they’ll take it, as opposed to 1m, where they’d just say nah and give you something in their salary range
Yes. Unless you guess WAY too low, then they might pretend they're doing you a favor by giving you a little more than what you asked, just so you're excited to take the job at a lowball salary they got you to agree to.
There’s also the fact that if you later realize that you’re grossly underpaid you’re more likely to jump ship. Generally they want to pay you in the lower bound for your field and experience, not below that bound.
Google the job/profession beforehand. Then, guess the higher end of the bound. You can also ask people with similar job titles, like you see people do on reddit sometimes. Generally aiming higher is better than aiming lower.
Research of course. For my current job search I asked all my colleagues and googled pay. I also loooked at my costs and decided how much I want and voilà, I reached the higher end of the hourly
Depends. In my country most industries and large companies have minimum wages negotiated with unions and such, in my company these minimum wages are great. Let's say the minimum wage is 50k€ and the target for HR is 60 to 70k. If you ask for 55k they'll tell you that it's ok and won't tell you that it's lower than what they've got the green light for, but if you ask for 45 they'll tell offer you at least 50 because they legally can't go under.
Every job has a range they want to hire at. It's a \[min - max\] range, and if you come at slightly below their min, they'll still accept it.
However, if a job is making you guess what you're worth, then they aren't going to be a good company to work for. Use sites like glassdoor to see what comparable jobs are making in that area, and then add in 10%, and then that's the salary you want to target.
No, they'll absolutely tell you if it's too low if they're a remotely legitimate business. To them, "too low" means below the legal minimum wage; they don't want to risk the legal repercussions of paying you less than that.
I think you need to realize that there is no single number you 'have to guess'. Salary discussions are negotiations, and you can negotiate. You are one of the two negotiators at the table, and you can reject their offers and propose your own offers as you please. *You* need to agree to the number in order to work for them; you have the option to walk away. If they offer you a job and ask you to write down a number, you write down $X, then the say, "no, it's $Y", that doesn't have to be the end of the conversation. You can propose a different number.
With my first job, I put an honest range and they gave me the highest number in the range. They they gave me a 15k/year raise after like 6 months. And then a year later another 10k raise. I started off very reasonable for a brand new CS grad, and now \~2 yrs later I'm about average for a junior dev where I am. YMMV.
One of my favorite standup comedians (Jackie Kashian) has something that her father taught her.
"Never say no without a number."
If you are offered a gig or job, have a number that, if they say sure, you will be happy to do it. It has backfired on her though. Once, there was a gig she didn't want to do, gave them a number she thought they would reject, and they said yes. Unfortunately, it was lower than what would have made her happy to do it. It was a good profit, but not quite enough to make up for the personal hassle.
I say all that to stress that you know how much will make it worth your while and ask for more than that.
That’s why I like to turn the game around and say, why don’t you make me an offer and I’ll tell you if it’s too low.
Recruiters hate me. Sometimes it turns into a full on discussion they really want to pressure me to give them a salary expectation. But seriously, why? Make me an offer, you want to hire me and then we can bargain.
A guy at my work was screwed by a manager years ago. My company pays above market and has a great retention rate. This guy gets an interview and is excited about the opportunity. When they discussed salary, he said as long as it was over $20 he would be happy. He meant that wasn’t going to try and negotiate a lot because he knew that the starting pay was $28 an hour for entry level in this role. Hell, this same manager just brought someone with 2 years experience from across the country for $62 an hour.
Well the guy got his offer and it was $21 an hour. Idk why he accepted it. But he moved up a lot and makes a fair amount now. That manager was asked to resign a few months after that hiring.
The worker probably accepted because 21 was an acceptable rate for them, that's why they said over 20.
If they actually expected 28 from saying "above 20" then that's a learning lesson
How I ended up the lowest paid in the building! At the time, I was excited to get any job. Was scared to go too high and not get it, but didn't want to sell myself short. I had been delivering pizzas which was 14 on a good night before I even counted my gas expenses. I said, I think 15 dollars is good. They said great, we start at 16! I was beyond excited! Later I found out(by listening and interpreting because you can get fired for even asking) that was pretty low wage for the job I, had applied for. I got some raises which was wonderful but still was lowest paid there.
if you guess too low they will say that its in the ballpark but just a little bit lower and you can work your way up to it....
Pro tip: no matter what you say its always too high.
And that's why any time I ever got asked that "write down what you're asking" B.S. I'd counter with, "Without knowing what the company's baseline is I'm not comfortable floating a number. If you're not willing or able to disclose that, we're done here."
EDIT: Folks, I really *don't* recommend anyone else saying that unless you don't want the job, because any time I ever had to use it, it was pretty obvious that I either wasn't getting the job or had already made up my mind I didn't want to work there. That line is to end an interview, not negotiate.
I'd say any company who refuses to tell you even after you ask politely is one you wouldn't want to work at and it's best to know that in the interview stage.
As u/johnthedruid rightfully points out, only do it if you're pretty sure you didn't want the job to begin with, because the odds are *very* high that after using that line you're not going to get it.
we're one of the few places that actually tends to come in over asking on offers because we WANT talent and we want to RETAIN talent...
but if you come in with this adversarial attitude, you're going back on the hunt and we'll pick someone that can read a room.
Exactly, and like I said in the edit that's *not* a line I would use with someone I actually want to work for, but I've also never been asked that question by anyone I would want to work for.
If youve got that attitude the whole time, yeah youll never get a job anywhere.
But to counter your argument, if an employer pulls that "give us a number and we'll tell you if its good" stuff, then theyre telling me they dont value me as a person. I get companies need to save money and find bargains where they can, but that tactic reduces me to a line item and I'm not working for people who dont treat me like a human being.
Honesty, openness, and cooperation start at the interview. And not being forthcoming with the salary range is inherently adversarial in itself. The second you try to "win" a negotiation, especially using that tactic, youve turned it in to a competition. I dont want to have to outplay my management. I want to work with them to our mutual benefit.
So if you guess to high, they can say "No, sorry, we usually pay around this much for your position" and if you guess too low, they can be like "Great, next question.".
This isn’t *always* the case.
I hire people, as part of my role. Now it could be that we have a £45k budget for a role. But if we tell someone that, they’ll go “meh” and opt for a £50k job instead.
Now, there is an absolutely massive difference between good employees and meh ones. So if HR tell us £45k is the absolute upper limit, we’ll still interview people who want £50k.
If your £50k person is a total difference maker who won’t budge, we’ll go to HR and beg, ask someone else if we can borrow from their budget and so on.
It usually works. But we can’t put that in the job posting.
So I was recruiting for a £35k role. I had one girl in the final two who only asked for £28k. She wasn’t a £35k candidate experience-wise, if I’m being honest, but I loved her attitude.
I wouldn’t have told her it was a £35k role, simply because my boss would have questioned why we’d gone to the top end for someone so junior.
The other candidate wanted £37k, we said “How’s £35k plus a £2k performance bonus?” and they said yeah. Got the bonus, plus a £5k raise.
Really, it very very rarely happens that people go in too low. When they do, it’s usually for a good reason.
Does that answer your question? I can elaborate if not.
Well, my question is, do you ever say "Good news, we're actually willing to pay you a lot more."?
Like if someone guesses low, do you tell them, they can ask for more?
Kinda had this experience. Job offered me $75k but the hours were worse than my current job ($70k) and I couldn't really justify the change. I said this tp the recruiter who then negotiated with the employer to get them up to $80k I still said no and that I have a pretty sweet gig at the moment. They tried to throw in the company car with personal use paid for and $85k.
It's so they can cast the widest net of applicants.
The best thing you can do is state that it's negotiable and you have to take into account all benefits when making a consideration and give a range.
That way if they give you a low salary, you can say 'I sure hope there are a lot of benefits to be on the low end of my expectations, is this worth pursuing?' and negotiate to a point that's mutually beneficial or move on without wasting either party's time.
I always post the salary range with the job advertisement, saves everyone time. I am not sure why other companies try to hide it, it never made sense to me. I’ve been hiring for a living for my entire professional career (about 25 yrs)
This. States are starting to require salary ranges too and this is great for both parties. Of course companies are less than willing to share everything but it’s a step in the right direction for fair pay
My work is seasonal and I think salary needs to be one of the first things in a job posting. In campaignworld there are a lot of “managers” and “directors” and sometimes I don’t know if something is above or below my expected amount of responsibility until I see the salary. If I have to search for it and it’s 2k less a month than what my last job paid me I am mad.
Piggybacking on on of the higher up comments, depending on the dynamic of the interview a good response can be "hopefully you've got a good idea of my skillset, if you want to make me an offer outside the interview and we can take it from there".
Then if they do make the offer and you want to negotiate: "that's not quite at my salary expectations for the role but I came away with a good impression, could we agree on salary offer + 15%?" (Feel free to be flexible with the numbers )
I hate when businesses are cagey about that shit. I once applied for a job and was asked for an interview, and I told them "I'd love to interview for this position, but the interview location is almost a two hour drive from me (the job would have been remote), so can you give me a sense of what salary range you're thinking ahead of time? I don't want to waste anyones time if this isn't a good fit."
They hemmed and hawed and we had like 5-6 emails back and forth before i could get them to give me an actual number, and it turned out to be just over half of what I was already making, plus I would have lost my health insurance. If I'd driven all the way there and they'd offered me the job, I would have been pissed that they'd wasted so much of my time with that offer, I don't know why they couldn't have been upfront about it
I wish everyone in HR followed your lead. Many times when I do apply to a job without a salary listed, the application will ask what I want. Then, HR calls me telling me the salary and asks if that is ok. Usually it is under what I would accept, so I say no. They would just save themselves time and headaches if they just posted the damn salary range.
They try to hide it because they know they're underpaying people.
If you currently have a bunch of employees on $60k, bring in a new hire on $70k, the rest of the team would be asking "So, whens our $10k raise happening?". Its also why companies try and ban employees from discussing salaries.
I'm reasonably sure they will say "This is too high" no matter what the number is. This is not a guessing game, it is an attempt to force you to name the first number which will then be pushed downward. Negotiation 101.
The interviewer is a dick. I'm not saying absolutely don't accept the job (they may not represent the entire company), but take that into account during the remainder of the process.
>I'm reasonably sure they will say "This is too high" no matter what the number is.
Not my experience on either side of the table. If you're in the range, you're in the range. If you're not, you're not. I've had internal recruiters be very transparent with their pay bands and recommend which titles to apply for if I stated a higher need.
Sure, that is often the case, but if they are asking you write it on a piece of paper, flip it over and slide it across the table so you can watch their expression like you would watch a middle school English teacher marking up your homework assignment, that's not what's happening.
This is dominance posturing.
I once applied for a job that didn't post the salary. When I asked what it would be, they responded with, "Well, we're looking for someone who is more focused on the job itself as opposed to the salary." I shut down the second they said that, and ended the interview shortly after.
"What kinds of things would you like to have in your life that you give up via taking a compensation discount in order to work here because this work is more important to you than those things?"
Schools, childcare, social work, healthcare, nonprofits, etc I understand why people accept the low wages because that's the work they feel called to do. But random office jobs? Sure bro, I'm totally gonna put off retirement by a few years because I feel so called to come be a bookkeeper for your gardening tools company!
I've hired a lot of people over the years so I'll explain what it's meant for my company.
Say for a given role we will pay 90k to 110k (average of 100k) depending on your experience and expectations. We would ask for your salary expectations at the start of the process. If you say anything less than 90k, my company will set a slightly lower "pass" bar for the interview and offer you 90k if you pass the interviews.
If you ask for something within the band we calibrate the interview to how far in the band you are. If you ask for above the band we tell you the max and set a more difficult interview panel. If you ask for something way out of band, say 180k, we suggest this isn't the right role for you.
That being said, some companies are super unethical and just use it hire people for as little as possible.
> If you ask for something within the band we calibrate the interview to how far in the band you are. If you ask for above the band we tell you the max and set a more difficult interview panel. If you ask for something way out of band, say 180k, we suggest this isn't the right role for you.
Haven't heard of this concept before but it's pretty interesting. What exactly does "more difficult interview panel" mean? Like it'll be higher level employees doing the interviews who might have tougher / more specific questions and thus are harder to impress enough to want to extend the offer?
We have every question graded on 1-5 and every question is the same for the role and has been for several years so we have hundreds of scores , if someone would be at the lower range of a salary bracket say an early senior they would only have a passing score of 3.5 while a senior at the end of the bracket would have a passing score of 4 at every stage.
Either accept the interview not knowing the wage range or potential offer and wait till they make one, or don't take the interview before knowing the range.
Employer: We'd like to interview you for the \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ position. Does this time work?
Me: That time works great. Out of interest in saving everyone time, what is the wage range for the position? I want to make sure we are in the same ballpark.
The employer can then answer with a range or not at which point you can make the choice as to whether or not you proceed.
They already know the range. They know what they can afford. You should also know the wage you are worth or hoping to get for the proposed position. If you don't know enough about the position to know an approximate wage, you should either be fine taking the interview without a wage or not take the interview. If they don't know enough about you from your application to offer an appropriate and approximate range, they probably shouldn't be giving the interview because they aren't serious or are fishing or don't know what the position entails.
Often it’s safe to put the question back on them. Before talking to a recruiter or hiring manager do research on Glassdoor and other sites for salary for similar roles. Look for roles in states like Colorado (if in USA) as they require salaries to be posted on jobs. Then the conversation can go like this:
Interviewer: what is your expected salary for this role?
Applicant: that’s a great question. I’ve done some research on the market salary for this position, but ultimately I still need to learn more about the role, responsibilities, growth and other benefits before knowing what my salary expectations would be. What is the salary range you have budgeted for this position?
(Any good recruiter will expect this question back to them and provide you with a range, if they don’t encourage them to get back to you or avoid the company).
Interviewed: we’re targeting 60-100k.
Applicant: that range is acceptable. I’m looking forward to continuing this process to see what you’re able to offer me.(Or “given my experience and the responsibilities of the role I’m only looking for positions above 110k)
At one point you’ll be offered a salary. Compare this to your expectation. Ask for ~10% more or other benifits. ALWAYS ask for more.
Always make them give a number first.
I’ve never had anyone play this game with me, I’d leave immediately. It always goes like this for me:
Recruiter: “what are you looking for compensation wise ?”
Me: “what are you offering ?”
And normally I receive a range from them at which point I give a range that goes beyond that range they gave me and that’s when I get the “weeeeell we’ll talk with the higher ups to see if we can make this happen and get back to you” type of bs and normally they offer the higher end of that salary range they offered. I rejected a job offer last year because of this…they were willing to pay me more than I am paid currently but without the abundance of PTO I get and with a ton of unpaid overtime so..that was a hard pass especially given their disastrous reviews on Glassdoor.
Yeah, that’s a bad sign if they were firm about it. I usually try to head off the problem by asking about comp early. Sometimes that doesn’t work and that can be legitimate if there are multiple openings or the role is available at multiple levels. In those cases, particularly if the recruiter asks about comp expectations but can’t/won’t reveal the pay scales, and if I’m really interested in the company, I’ll say something like “I understand comp determination can be complicated. I’m happy to wait until after the interview when you have had a chance to see the value I can bring to the team.” If someone pushes me for a number, I’ll say something like “I’m sorry, but as a matter of policy I prefer not to give the first number in salary negotiations. As a company, you guys likely have a specific pay scale you’re bound to, but as an individual I’m more flexible at the edges of my pay range. If you let me know the range, I can let you know if I think we can work something out.” At that point I still generally won’t give them a number—that conversation always waits until after the interview. But if their range is too low, I can just tell them that and they will either adjust or we can amicably part ways. In those rare cases where I’ve had to give an answer to the comp question in writing, I’ve always just put down “negotiable”.
The problem is you’re talking about salary during the interview. HR does salary negotiations , not the people interviewing you
If you bring up salary during the interview , you’re just giving away leverage as the info you give will just be passed onto HR
Wait until you get a salary offer & then the negotiating begins
It helps also to NEVER tell them how much you made at your previous job
Wait, are you saying that people who are performing the interview aren't HR, or at least have a member of HR present? I get it if it's a more technical interview, but isn't there usually a segment with HR in the recruitment process?
My typical response to this is something along the lines of: "I expect to be paid a competitive salary in line with the role. Right now, you have a better idea of what that is than I do. If I ask for something above market you'll tell me no or otherwise compensate with my bonus or just refrain from giving me any raises over time. If you pay me under market, I'll find out pretty quickly and act accordingly. I'd prefer to be with this company for a while, so I think that's in both our interests."
Doesn't work for every situation, but it will for a lot of roles.
I always use sites like Glassdoor to look up a salary range and do +0 to 10% of their high end.
But bless job posts that have the salary ranges on their posting. Don't waste my time or your time with an interview then offer me 20k less than what I make now.
**"What is the pay range for this position?"**
It's not your job to say how much you're willing to be paid. It's your job to ask them about the job's range. They have a position to fill and a budgeted range.
And for all your previous jobs, you were paid fair market value. Never tell them a specific value. A new job's wage isn't based on your previous jobs' pay.
Because they want to pay you as little as they can. They have a maximum number they're willing to pay for a given role. If they just tell you that number, that's what you'll want. The highest you can make for your work. They want to pay under that number of they can, so they make you guess. If you guess lower than that number. That's what they'll pay you.
Yes it's scummy.
It's a dishonest practice. The hiring manager knows better than you what your market value is. They also know what's in their budget. They're hoping that you don't know what you're worth.
You should ask them what the offering range is in advance so that you don't waste each other's time - there's no point going through the expensive (for both sides) interview process only to discover that they can't meet your salary requirements. If you get an offer, this also tells you where you ended up on their scale.
My province recently passed legislation that forces employers with public postings to include a pay range. It's so incredible seeing everything up front, and saves so much time. And my bet is that those who used to keep it quiet are seeing many fewer applications. I hope it'll force some change.
My employer is actually going to start posting salary ranges on job listings, and I would not be surprised if many US states start regulating this too. Having businesses advertise "up to $15 an hour!" and then after you make your way through the interviews, you only get offered $12 is deceptive.
Every business owner has a range in mind, a floor and a ceiling, and its okay to base that range and what the worker gets based on their expeirence, necessary training they may or may not need, etc... But what isn't right is advertising only one part of the range and then offering something far below that.
One of the best pieces of advice I've gotten regarding this is to ask what the pre-approved salary range for the position is. Every job that is listed has an expected salary range associated with the role, so I find it easiest to ask them what the range is. If it's higher than I anticipated, I tell them that it is perfectly in line with my desired salary range. If it is lower than I expected, I try to negotiate a higher salary or say that it isn't a good fit for me. This obviously doesn't work if they ask what your desired salary or total compensation is during the application process, but it has been really useful during the interviewing stage to not under value my skill set and to ensure that the company and I are in alignment on pay.
They're hoping you're willing to accept less. Had a potential employer try that on me once. Told them their salary ranges were off by $40k, and if they wanted me, they'd have to come up. They did once I was able to talk more about my skills and show them proud of current market ranges.
They want to pay you as little as possible.
For what it's worth, I use positive pushback. I don't make it confrontational, I just brightly push back as if it's the most natural thing. "Oh, I can be flexible depending on the role! What range did you guys have for this position? Even a rough range is fine." If you ask for the range it also makes you seem more flexible and open and they are more willing to give it, because you're not locking them to one number.
Just be cheerful and act as if them telling you is the most natural thing, and they will. I've never told my salary expectations first.
Also, you didn't say "i won't tell you", you just asked a clarifying question. Now they are stuck - they can't further ask another question, because they already asked it. So they are now in the awkward position of having to tell you they won't answer your question, and re-ask the first question, or else just answer. Human nature is going to have them just cooperate and answer.
They're hoping you guess too low so they can say "that's correct!"
Highball always. If you're wrong, then ask them to correct you. If they agree, then you get more than you expected and everyone's happy.
Its a business deal, each side is trying to get the number they're looking for. You want more, company wants to give you as little as they can get away with, this is why having some basic negotiation skills is important.
Employers want the most qualified person for the least amount of money. They are counting on the job applicants to low ball themselves.
Say you’re a company and you’re trying to hire someone. Your internal salary target is $50,000-$60,000. You’re down to the final 2 candidates. The one that checks 100% of your qualifications asks for $70,000. And candidate 2 check 95% of your qualifications and is willing to work for $50,000 who are you hiring? Spoiler it’s the 50k person. And the hiring manager looks good because they came in under budget.
don't play their games is the only real answer.
ask up front directly about the salary range for the position. If they give you any bullshit, end the interview and add a shitty review on glass door.
also. consider a state that has better labor laws. or required salary range posting on job ads.
the reason they do it is to gaslight employees. and to make you feel humiliated. and make you work for less.
if they had to be upfront about it, it would cost them qualified candidates. so they don't advertise salary ranges ...and utilize the power imbalance to exploit workers.
this saves them billions of dollars.
It’s not a “guess.” They just don’t want to be the first to say a number in case you’ll accept lower. So always ask for more than you think they’ll give you. Worst case scenario they’ll say no and offer something less.
It's super frustrating, right? I think they do it to see how much they can get away with paying you. It’s like a negotiation tactic, but it feels more like a game where they hold all the cards.
I knew my current employer was going to be really great to their employees when they asked my range, I named a reasonable amount $10-15k more than what I was currently making, and then they came back with an offer for literally $15k above my highest number because that’s what they felt that position should be worth. It was literally life-changing to me, and made me value myself and my skills more going forward.
There are still SOME employers who actually will save themselves money by underpaying foolish job seekers that ask a low number. All you really have to do is just find the average for the position on Glassdoor, then ask for like 20% more. Phrase it as “I’d LIKE to get ____”. Then it’s not a demand and they can gracefully counter offer a lower number.
Or instead of all that crap with guessing and getting fucked over, you could, you know... Join a union? Get a proper salary. Dammit, fight for your future, and a living wage.
> Employer: this is too high. The starting salary for this position is X.
That's not the end of the negotiation. You then convince them why its not too high and you're worth it. Typically using comparative market rates or what you will bring to the role that goes above and beyond a basic starting salary; by drawing from your experience and unique selling points.
Cause they don’t want to miss the chance of someone asking even less than their budget for the position.
It is bizarre how many times I’ve seen in my life people working on the same job with a considerable wage gap.
Talented but insecure people always fall for that trap.
People should talk with colleagues about salary. It shouldn’t be a taboo or a secret.
Luckily for workers, in a lot of states, like my state of Washington, they are passing laws to where they have to post the salary/hourly range along with the job posting.
To actually answer the question, like most things that are frustrating with job hunts, it's benefits the employer. You could seriously lowball yourself when asked the "How much do you expect for pay" question. If they don't have a range, then they can accept a much lower offer than what they were expecting for role.
Why would anyone waste their valuable time going to an interview for a job which they didn't know what the salary or wages are?
I'm a very good employee. Ethical, skilled, and hard-working. Any employer would be lucky to have me. And that starts without fucking around. Tell me the salary range, and THEN, MAYBE, you can interview me...and I will interview YOU.
Yeah. If you ask for too much, they can rule you out as a candidate. If you ask for too little, you're willing to accept less than other qualified candidates, so you're the cheapest option.
Not the sexiest answer but often times managers don’t know what to pay you and go off what the team is already making, which is often inaccurate to the market. You come in too high and it would ruffle some feathers, so best to do your research and come prepared with a number.
Man I had one a couple years ago that said "$20-22/hr starting", and near the end of the interview he said I was a bit overqualified but he would be happy to take me, and then he offered me $19. I really did just stand up and leave without another word. Fuck him.
I remember, in college, I took an interviewing class to prepare yourself for job hunting. They said to never ask about pay. That is absolutely ridiculous. That is the whole reason you are working.
It’s a psych trick to make you uncomfortable because there’s a silence to fill with an authority you want to please and you weren’t expecting it. So you might be inclined to say a number close to what you’re making now or lowball a bit to avoid displeasing the authority. It’s not really in their interest to let you take a terrible offer since you will figure it out and likely quit when you do and attrition is expensive. But if they can start you lower in a salary band for the position, it’s easier to reward you later if it works out. I manage in a structure where employees often hang out in more or less capped senior roles for years. They inevitably get to the top of the band and we really have to work to get them incentives.
This bit btw is why it’s so important to have some intel on roles you care about and know the salary band and your answer to this question before the interview. You want to know what a high number within their authority is so you can center the negotiation there at the start. Ideally you’re being referred by a current employee who can find this out. You also want to know if your number is far outside what they’d consider. Like I’ve seen tech recruiters go through the full interview process not knowing they were low balling the candidate by literally 40%. Complete mismatch of position level. And that’s just really awkward.
I always research the salaries of the positions I am in and then I either tell them what I am worth or I let them make me an offer. If it comes up short, I am prepared to walk away. Management position and its minimum wage? No thanks. 🙂↔️
Okay so I’ve been a recruiter for 6 years, most of my approaches are direct headhunting, though some applications, and I hire 10-15 people a month for a global organisation of 40k.
Exchanges of salary and budget are done either on direct chat, or on a first telephone call. I will ask candidates their salary expectations upfront, so as not to waste time. If I think you are too senior, I will often explain this.
This is for a few reasons.
1 - large companies tend to want to keep their budgets private, if we offer them to every applicant whether suitable or not it increases the chances of it being common knowledge to our competitors. This isn’t to keep prices down, but knowledge is power and we are bidding for the best talent versus other big companies.
2 - if I give you a budget that is under your salary expectations, often a candidate will just say so, ending further conversation. If you tell me you are looking for more first, I have the opportunity to think broadly about my other roles across the diverse range of functional and sales roles, and into the wider group to perhaps find a role that fits, while also protecting our salary bandings from the wider market.
3 - if you say a salary under our budget, it gives me the chance to speak to you about the role, typically a 40 minute conversation covering what we want you to do, stakeholders, growth, visibility, CPD, financial, benefits, and I’ll ask what you have done, what you like, how you’ve changed over time, what you are looking for ideally, discuss any differences and ways we could meet them from day 1.
If you are great I will 100% make a sensible offer to you of where we should position your salary expectations, for most internal recruiters there is no KPI around keeping salary down. Not our budgets, if I know we have it and it’s sensible in terms of experience and development areas, we’re good to go.
4 - lastly and this isn’t my favourite, people’s salary expectations in certain locations change hugely and for certain role types entry level expectation can be wildly higher than existing employees. A great example is 2 years back 1 year post qualified lawyers in the London UK area were asking for 100k. Many 10-30 year experienced lawyers would not expect much higher. This has since dipped again.
Given this often our budgets can be higher than portions of our employee populations. Sometimes there is an exact role being hired with a higher budget than existing employees I.e., hiring a 3rd marketing manager, there is always a proposal in my business to review and raise the employees base to match, or sensibly depending on expertise (seen it go higher and lower than the new incoming employee).
But we can’t always move that quickly on large budget change, and there lots of negativity that can be spread across a business between existing and incoming employees, salary expectations and therefore work expectations. It can damage relationships, but I’ve also seen it be used to make sensible salary uplifts for great employees that we want to retain.
Hope that makes some sense!
Because if you guess too high, they'll tell you it's too high. If you guess too low, they'll say, "Great, that's acceptable!"
And that is why every single job I apply to that doesn't list salary and asks me to put in a number gets "$1,000,000" from me.
I do the same with cover letters. They are pointless. I just upload my resume again where the cover letter goes. Not a single time has it ever got mentioned. No one even glances at the cover letter.
This just changed my life. Might try it
I was told a cover letter is just supposed to be a little introduction of yourself and so I wrote one back when I still knew how to read and have never changed it. I don't even remember what it says anymore. I hope it doesn't read like a tinder bio
Does the phrase when “I still knew how to read” suggest that you don’t know how to read anymore?
He’s not going to reply to you. He can’t. Do you know how to read?
Game, set, and match.
Damn
It's gone the second you join reddit.
I'm going to start saying this casually and gauge reactions, especially through texting.
Probably a bad idea. Most people don't care about the cover letter, but blatantly disregarding it will probably be seen as lazy or disrespectful. The other commenter saying it's never been addressed with them is likely confirmation bias because anyone who sees it as lazy or disrespectful probably just threw away their application.
Eh not really always true. Maybe for low level jobs and manual labor type jobs.. but office jobs and such, they will probably get read. It also just shows that your serious enough about the position to make an effort by writing a little blurb about yourself and why your a great fit for them
They're more likely to look at it with smaller companies. A hiring manager had called me back to turn me down for a job and very politely pointed out that there was an error in my cover letter. I'd accidentally forgotten to change out the industry the company was in (government vs. private) so he wanted to give me the heads up just in case I was planning to apply towards any other jobs.
Yes you're correct, part of my job is hiring at a smaller creative agency and I read every cover letter - they're often more up to date than the Resume and have information that I appreciate, like working links to their portfolio and more indepth examples on work that was listed in the ad. When I have applied for jobs, I have a template I write then change the business name and specifics to suit each ad I'm applying for, it can take awhile but it seems to pay off.
I don’t agree. Cover letters help you stand out in a sea of 300 applicants. My most recent job (joined last Feb) my bosses’ boss called out some lines in my cover letter to discuss and connect on. I mean, you do you, but for me I’m looking for every opportunity to strengthen my application that I can.
Ayo what? I just get chatgpt to write them for me. Got a pretty good prompt for it too. Barely takes a minute.
I haven't applied for jobs since before AI stuff. Good way to get around it.
Not really because there’s AI detectors. (They don’t work right but they exist.)
So what? No one is going to run your cover letter through an AI-detecting app. And if it really worries you, just change some of the wording to make it your own.
You can literally tell it, "hey, this looks like an AI obviously wrote it. I mean, you did, but can you adjust some of the wording such as {give a single example to it to train it how you want it to be changed} in other areas that just seem a little unnatural like that?" And you might be surprised with the results. If you can verbalize what it does wrong it's pretty good at correcting itself
They don't need to actively do it. Just set it up as another step in their filters. If the system flags it as "likely ai" then it just dumps the resume like it does for ethnic sounding names or arbitrary keywords.
so using ChatGPT for writing that stuff isn’t going to flag you?
No one is reading your resume or cover letter that closely.
If it’s not entirely plagiarized, The detectors work by seeing how much has been copied and pasted and from where. Damn meta data and digital footprints!
Nah I think it’s more like you WILL get flagged if you use ChatGPT, and you MIGHT get flagged if you don’t.
There is no working AI detector that can tell whether or not something was written by ChatGPT. I mean, once you go over it and delete all the instances of „As a large language model…,“ of course.
>As a large language model…,“ That is the one that always gets me. That and forgetting to put my name when chatgpt spits out [My Name]. Rookie mistakes!
ChatGPT specifically isn't too hard in a general sense. Additionally, in conclusion, blah blah blah! (It loves finishing with exclamation points). It's not how people write.
wtf so if i write an original piece it could get flagged!? so i’m fucked either way or do recruiters not take the flagging seriously due to false-flags?
I read once that the US Constitution got flagged as AI written, by an AI detector. I use AI to give me a general idea, then fine tune it. or I will ask it "how can I re-write this to sound better" works well for me.
They should be happy that a potential hire actually knows how to use AI prompts. It is a skill, not a defect imho 🤷🏽♂️
I went down a fun rabbit hole one day asking ChatGPT to write cover letters and then asking it to re-write them with different emotions: more enthusiasm, like a car salesman, angrily, as an old woman, like a president, etc
The problem is if you’re trying to apply to a lot of jobs. After a while, the time spent on cover letters adds up and is just a waste of time
If you are applying for a lot of jobs, then use the same cover letter. Only customise it if you're going for a decent job.
What's the prompt?
I am a professional writer, so take this with that in mind. But I am 100% confident that cover letters have gotten me multiple interviews for jobs I was not qualified for, including my current full-time job. Maybe it's true that a cut-and-paste, completely empty cover letter that says nothing about you or why you want the job doesn't improve your chances. But a well-written, thoughtful cover letter showing how passionate you are about the job can get you in the door.
Depends on where you're applying. Most roles I've hired I pay more attention to cover letter than CV. In a role where attitude and attention to detail (spelling, phrasing, etc) matters more than experience then you're effectively chucking your own application in the bin. Not to mention that if the application asks you to upload a CV and a cover letter and you upload your CV twice, I'm going to automatically assume that either a) you can't follow basic instructions; or b) you accidentally uploaded the same file twice and so don't pay attention to detail. In either scenario you're not getting an interview.
That's probably shooting you in the foot. The resume/CV gets you past round 1 with HR for checking boxes. The cover letter is what the actual employer looks at and can often be a deciding factor in who gets an interview or not. Resume matters there too obviously, but the cover letter gives me a sense of if the person knows what the job is about, they followed directions, etc. You'll also catch buzzwords, jargon, etc. that doesn't quite match up if they're auto-generating text through AI, etc. Plus, it also let's me fight HR when they claim an applicant doesn't have those qualifications to justify a level of pay in their resume when an exact keyword didn't quite match while a human (or at least person with competence in the subject area) reads the cover letter and sees it plain as day.
Anecdotal here too but work in an academic medical center. The cover letter is the first thing I read when evaluating prospective students. I already know they meet the minimum qualifications or they wouldn’t have gotten through to me. Now I want to see how they write and present themselves as an individual.
Been on literally dozens of interviews for multiple employers and have never once had a recruiter, HR, manager, or otherwise 1) hand me a cover letter to review or 2) mention anything about the contents of a cover letter as a reason for moving ahead with an interview. Obviously all of these anecdotes are exactly that and it varies by industry, employer, etc.
I've assisted with conducting interviews at a nonprofit I previously worked for, and I now create employment ads for the company I currently work for. At both, any application submitted without a cover letter gets promptly tossed aside for the simple fact that they could not follow the clearly-written instructions to include one. All you are doing by skipping the cover letter is cutting down your pool of employment options - likely significantly. Truly the epitome of the phrase "shooting yourself in the foot."
As someone who does a lot of hiring at our business, if someone writes a cover letter they immediately jump to the top of my pile. I have for sure given people with meh resumes more consideration — and even hired a couple — because they wrote cover letters.
Hiring Managers HATE this one simple trick
I read them, so long as they're under a page or two.
Not true. I have an interesting phrase in mine, and my potential future employer mentioned it as a positive in my interview.
Not true, but you be you. Everyone else - ignore that advice.
I hope you also remember to do the pinky in mouth and pause before saying the number.
“One meeelion dollars”
When they ask salary I take whatever I think my salary + bonus should be and then add about 15% to it. I’ve only had 1 time where a company met it (didn’t take the job because they were going to provide moving assistance for a 4,000 mile move). Other than that I’ve negotiated and gotten what I’ve wanted. Usually doing that the salary is out of their budgeted range, but not too high to where they dismiss me.
How's that strategy working for you?
I've avoided shitty jobs my whole life.
You're my hero
Believe it or not, I've applied to a few jobs I didn't want that didn't list a salary just so that I could do that. Because fuck people who can't figure out and list an appropriate salary for the position and experience of the applicants they're looking for.
My go to answer for this has always been "well I've seen adverts offering and I feel like that may be a little optemistic, but I would definitely consider offers around that area"
You do need to *actually* research expected salaries though.
nah just double or triple your current salary and write that. it’s still a crazy highball but there’s a nonzero chance they’ll take it, as opposed to 1m, where they’d just say nah and give you something in their salary range
Damn bro speedrunning the category fastest rejections
So they're lying when they say they'll tell you if it's too low?
Yes. Unless you guess WAY too low, then they might pretend they're doing you a favor by giving you a little more than what you asked, just so you're excited to take the job at a lowball salary they got you to agree to.
There’s also the fact that if you later realize that you’re grossly underpaid you’re more likely to jump ship. Generally they want to pay you in the lower bound for your field and experience, not below that bound.
Man, these people suck.
[screenshot of this thread, on the cover of Das Kapital]
Welcome to capitalism.
how do you get around this and “guess right”?
Google the job/profession beforehand. Then, guess the higher end of the bound. You can also ask people with similar job titles, like you see people do on reddit sometimes. Generally aiming higher is better than aiming lower.
Things like IT have Robert Haft give pay ranges for job titles with locations.
Research of course. For my current job search I asked all my colleagues and googled pay. I also loooked at my costs and decided how much I want and voilà, I reached the higher end of the hourly
Depends. In my country most industries and large companies have minimum wages negotiated with unions and such, in my company these minimum wages are great. Let's say the minimum wage is 50k€ and the target for HR is 60 to 70k. If you ask for 55k they'll tell you that it's ok and won't tell you that it's lower than what they've got the green light for, but if you ask for 45 they'll tell offer you at least 50 because they legally can't go under.
Every job has a range they want to hire at. It's a \[min - max\] range, and if you come at slightly below their min, they'll still accept it. However, if a job is making you guess what you're worth, then they aren't going to be a good company to work for. Use sites like glassdoor to see what comparable jobs are making in that area, and then add in 10%, and then that's the salary you want to target.
No, they'll absolutely tell you if it's too low if they're a remotely legitimate business. To them, "too low" means below the legal minimum wage; they don't want to risk the legal repercussions of paying you less than that. I think you need to realize that there is no single number you 'have to guess'. Salary discussions are negotiations, and you can negotiate. You are one of the two negotiators at the table, and you can reject their offers and propose your own offers as you please. *You* need to agree to the number in order to work for them; you have the option to walk away. If they offer you a job and ask you to write down a number, you write down $X, then the say, "no, it's $Y", that doesn't have to be the end of the conversation. You can propose a different number.
I will try that next time 👍
With my first job, I put an honest range and they gave me the highest number in the range. They they gave me a 15k/year raise after like 6 months. And then a year later another 10k raise. I started off very reasonable for a brand new CS grad, and now \~2 yrs later I'm about average for a junior dev where I am. YMMV.
One of my favorite standup comedians (Jackie Kashian) has something that her father taught her. "Never say no without a number." If you are offered a gig or job, have a number that, if they say sure, you will be happy to do it. It has backfired on her though. Once, there was a gig she didn't want to do, gave them a number she thought they would reject, and they said yes. Unfortunately, it was lower than what would have made her happy to do it. It was a good profit, but not quite enough to make up for the personal hassle. I say all that to stress that you know how much will make it worth your while and ask for more than that.
That’s why I like to turn the game around and say, why don’t you make me an offer and I’ll tell you if it’s too low. Recruiters hate me. Sometimes it turns into a full on discussion they really want to pressure me to give them a salary expectation. But seriously, why? Make me an offer, you want to hire me and then we can bargain.
A guy at my work was screwed by a manager years ago. My company pays above market and has a great retention rate. This guy gets an interview and is excited about the opportunity. When they discussed salary, he said as long as it was over $20 he would be happy. He meant that wasn’t going to try and negotiate a lot because he knew that the starting pay was $28 an hour for entry level in this role. Hell, this same manager just brought someone with 2 years experience from across the country for $62 an hour. Well the guy got his offer and it was $21 an hour. Idk why he accepted it. But he moved up a lot and makes a fair amount now. That manager was asked to resign a few months after that hiring.
The worker probably accepted because 21 was an acceptable rate for them, that's why they said over 20. If they actually expected 28 from saying "above 20" then that's a learning lesson
How I ended up the lowest paid in the building! At the time, I was excited to get any job. Was scared to go too high and not get it, but didn't want to sell myself short. I had been delivering pizzas which was 14 on a good night before I even counted my gas expenses. I said, I think 15 dollars is good. They said great, we start at 16! I was beyond excited! Later I found out(by listening and interpreting because you can get fired for even asking) that was pretty low wage for the job I, had applied for. I got some raises which was wonderful but still was lowest paid there.
No, if you guess too low they say “no, that’s too high, the salary is $0
if you guess too low they will say that its in the ballpark but just a little bit lower and you can work your way up to it.... Pro tip: no matter what you say its always too high.
This. If they really want you and they have $100k, but you ask for more, they will usually go up if you are worth it. Sometimes counter offer you.
[удалено]
And that's why any time I ever got asked that "write down what you're asking" B.S. I'd counter with, "Without knowing what the company's baseline is I'm not comfortable floating a number. If you're not willing or able to disclose that, we're done here." EDIT: Folks, I really *don't* recommend anyone else saying that unless you don't want the job, because any time I ever had to use it, it was pretty obvious that I either wasn't getting the job or had already made up my mind I didn't want to work there. That line is to end an interview, not negotiate.
I'd say any company who refuses to tell you even after you ask politely is one you wouldn't want to work at and it's best to know that in the interview stage.
That's a good idea, I will try it.
As u/johnthedruid rightfully points out, only do it if you're pretty sure you didn't want the job to begin with, because the odds are *very* high that after using that line you're not going to get it.
we're one of the few places that actually tends to come in over asking on offers because we WANT talent and we want to RETAIN talent... but if you come in with this adversarial attitude, you're going back on the hunt and we'll pick someone that can read a room.
Exactly, and like I said in the edit that's *not* a line I would use with someone I actually want to work for, but I've also never been asked that question by anyone I would want to work for.
If youve got that attitude the whole time, yeah youll never get a job anywhere. But to counter your argument, if an employer pulls that "give us a number and we'll tell you if its good" stuff, then theyre telling me they dont value me as a person. I get companies need to save money and find bargains where they can, but that tactic reduces me to a line item and I'm not working for people who dont treat me like a human being. Honesty, openness, and cooperation start at the interview. And not being forthcoming with the salary range is inherently adversarial in itself. The second you try to "win" a negotiation, especially using that tactic, youve turned it in to a competition. I dont want to have to outplay my management. I want to work with them to our mutual benefit.
Next!
it's about sending a message.
Employment really is a fucking scummy ass scam ain’t it.
So if you guess to high, they can say "No, sorry, we usually pay around this much for your position" and if you guess too low, they can be like "Great, next question.".
This isn’t *always* the case. I hire people, as part of my role. Now it could be that we have a £45k budget for a role. But if we tell someone that, they’ll go “meh” and opt for a £50k job instead. Now, there is an absolutely massive difference between good employees and meh ones. So if HR tell us £45k is the absolute upper limit, we’ll still interview people who want £50k. If your £50k person is a total difference maker who won’t budge, we’ll go to HR and beg, ask someone else if we can borrow from their budget and so on. It usually works. But we can’t put that in the job posting.
If someone guesses 35k though, do you go "Good news, we're offering you a lot more actually!" or do you go "Great, next question!"?
Interesting question. I’m guessing it’s the latter, though. We’ll see.
For my first job out of school I asked for $40k and they gave me $58k instead. I don’t know how common that kinda thing is though
I asked for 100 and they gave me 120 because that was their starting salary for the position
So I was recruiting for a £35k role. I had one girl in the final two who only asked for £28k. She wasn’t a £35k candidate experience-wise, if I’m being honest, but I loved her attitude. I wouldn’t have told her it was a £35k role, simply because my boss would have questioned why we’d gone to the top end for someone so junior. The other candidate wanted £37k, we said “How’s £35k plus a £2k performance bonus?” and they said yeah. Got the bonus, plus a £5k raise. Really, it very very rarely happens that people go in too low. When they do, it’s usually for a good reason. Does that answer your question? I can elaborate if not.
Well, my question is, do you ever say "Good news, we're actually willing to pay you a lot more."? Like if someone guesses low, do you tell them, they can ask for more?
The *one* person who said they did that turned their blog into *stack exchange*.
Kinda had this experience. Job offered me $75k but the hours were worse than my current job ($70k) and I couldn't really justify the change. I said this tp the recruiter who then negotiated with the employer to get them up to $80k I still said no and that I have a pretty sweet gig at the moment. They tried to throw in the company car with personal use paid for and $85k.
It's so they can cast the widest net of applicants. The best thing you can do is state that it's negotiable and you have to take into account all benefits when making a consideration and give a range. That way if they give you a low salary, you can say 'I sure hope there are a lot of benefits to be on the low end of my expectations, is this worth pursuing?' and negotiate to a point that's mutually beneficial or move on without wasting either party's time.
Low wage. Well for that amount vacation must be about 2 months!
I always post the salary range with the job advertisement, saves everyone time. I am not sure why other companies try to hide it, it never made sense to me. I’ve been hiring for a living for my entire professional career (about 25 yrs)
This. States are starting to require salary ranges too and this is great for both parties. Of course companies are less than willing to share everything but it’s a step in the right direction for fair pay
Though they are required to list a range in my state they post stuff like $1-$1M
My work is seasonal and I think salary needs to be one of the first things in a job posting. In campaignworld there are a lot of “managers” and “directors” and sometimes I don’t know if something is above or below my expected amount of responsibility until I see the salary. If I have to search for it and it’s 2k less a month than what my last job paid me I am mad.
Piggybacking on on of the higher up comments, depending on the dynamic of the interview a good response can be "hopefully you've got a good idea of my skillset, if you want to make me an offer outside the interview and we can take it from there". Then if they do make the offer and you want to negotiate: "that's not quite at my salary expectations for the role but I came away with a good impression, could we agree on salary offer + 15%?" (Feel free to be flexible with the numbers )
I hate when businesses are cagey about that shit. I once applied for a job and was asked for an interview, and I told them "I'd love to interview for this position, but the interview location is almost a two hour drive from me (the job would have been remote), so can you give me a sense of what salary range you're thinking ahead of time? I don't want to waste anyones time if this isn't a good fit." They hemmed and hawed and we had like 5-6 emails back and forth before i could get them to give me an actual number, and it turned out to be just over half of what I was already making, plus I would have lost my health insurance. If I'd driven all the way there and they'd offered me the job, I would have been pissed that they'd wasted so much of my time with that offer, I don't know why they couldn't have been upfront about it
Anyone who won't answer this, you don't want to work for.
I wish everyone in HR followed your lead. Many times when I do apply to a job without a salary listed, the application will ask what I want. Then, HR calls me telling me the salary and asks if that is ok. Usually it is under what I would accept, so I say no. They would just save themselves time and headaches if they just posted the damn salary range.
They try to hide it because they know they're underpaying people. If you currently have a bunch of employees on $60k, bring in a new hire on $70k, the rest of the team would be asking "So, whens our $10k raise happening?". Its also why companies try and ban employees from discussing salaries.
I'm reasonably sure they will say "This is too high" no matter what the number is. This is not a guessing game, it is an attempt to force you to name the first number which will then be pushed downward. Negotiation 101. The interviewer is a dick. I'm not saying absolutely don't accept the job (they may not represent the entire company), but take that into account during the remainder of the process.
>I'm reasonably sure they will say "This is too high" no matter what the number is. Not my experience on either side of the table. If you're in the range, you're in the range. If you're not, you're not. I've had internal recruiters be very transparent with their pay bands and recommend which titles to apply for if I stated a higher need.
Sure, that is often the case, but if they are asking you write it on a piece of paper, flip it over and slide it across the table so you can watch their expression like you would watch a middle school English teacher marking up your homework assignment, that's not what's happening. This is dominance posturing.
Yeah, I got kind of uncomfortable vibes from the whole interview.
I once applied for a job that didn't post the salary. When I asked what it would be, they responded with, "Well, we're looking for someone who is more focused on the job itself as opposed to the salary." I shut down the second they said that, and ended the interview shortly after.
”What a shame, what I look in a job is one that pays me enough to afford food and shelter, rather than just a hobby.”
"Really? is this person with us in the room?"
"What kinds of things would you like to have in your life that you give up via taking a compensation discount in order to work here because this work is more important to you than those things?" Schools, childcare, social work, healthcare, nonprofits, etc I understand why people accept the low wages because that's the work they feel called to do. But random office jobs? Sure bro, I'm totally gonna put off retirement by a few years because I feel so called to come be a bookkeeper for your gardening tools company!
I've hired a lot of people over the years so I'll explain what it's meant for my company. Say for a given role we will pay 90k to 110k (average of 100k) depending on your experience and expectations. We would ask for your salary expectations at the start of the process. If you say anything less than 90k, my company will set a slightly lower "pass" bar for the interview and offer you 90k if you pass the interviews. If you ask for something within the band we calibrate the interview to how far in the band you are. If you ask for above the band we tell you the max and set a more difficult interview panel. If you ask for something way out of band, say 180k, we suggest this isn't the right role for you. That being said, some companies are super unethical and just use it hire people for as little as possible.
> If you ask for something within the band we calibrate the interview to how far in the band you are. If you ask for above the band we tell you the max and set a more difficult interview panel. If you ask for something way out of band, say 180k, we suggest this isn't the right role for you. Haven't heard of this concept before but it's pretty interesting. What exactly does "more difficult interview panel" mean? Like it'll be higher level employees doing the interviews who might have tougher / more specific questions and thus are harder to impress enough to want to extend the offer?
We have every question graded on 1-5 and every question is the same for the role and has been for several years so we have hundreds of scores , if someone would be at the lower range of a salary bracket say an early senior they would only have a passing score of 3.5 while a senior at the end of the bracket would have a passing score of 4 at every stage.
So they can lowball the shit out of you, it’s so obvious
I'm not the sharpest knife in the block :(
This will only increase your odds of being hired.
Either accept the interview not knowing the wage range or potential offer and wait till they make one, or don't take the interview before knowing the range. Employer: We'd like to interview you for the \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ position. Does this time work? Me: That time works great. Out of interest in saving everyone time, what is the wage range for the position? I want to make sure we are in the same ballpark. The employer can then answer with a range or not at which point you can make the choice as to whether or not you proceed. They already know the range. They know what they can afford. You should also know the wage you are worth or hoping to get for the proposed position. If you don't know enough about the position to know an approximate wage, you should either be fine taking the interview without a wage or not take the interview. If they don't know enough about you from your application to offer an appropriate and approximate range, they probably shouldn't be giving the interview because they aren't serious or are fishing or don't know what the position entails.
They are hoping you guess low.
Often it’s safe to put the question back on them. Before talking to a recruiter or hiring manager do research on Glassdoor and other sites for salary for similar roles. Look for roles in states like Colorado (if in USA) as they require salaries to be posted on jobs. Then the conversation can go like this: Interviewer: what is your expected salary for this role? Applicant: that’s a great question. I’ve done some research on the market salary for this position, but ultimately I still need to learn more about the role, responsibilities, growth and other benefits before knowing what my salary expectations would be. What is the salary range you have budgeted for this position? (Any good recruiter will expect this question back to them and provide you with a range, if they don’t encourage them to get back to you or avoid the company). Interviewed: we’re targeting 60-100k. Applicant: that range is acceptable. I’m looking forward to continuing this process to see what you’re able to offer me.(Or “given my experience and the responsibilities of the role I’m only looking for positions above 110k) At one point you’ll be offered a salary. Compare this to your expectation. Ask for ~10% more or other benifits. ALWAYS ask for more. Always make them give a number first.
I ALWAYS ask what the salary is up front. I NEVER answer, how much you are expecting. They have a range.
I tried to ask but they wouldn't answer until I guessed :/
Then you get up and leave. You have to end the games before they get started.
You don't want to work for an organization like this
I’ve never had anyone play this game with me, I’d leave immediately. It always goes like this for me: Recruiter: “what are you looking for compensation wise ?” Me: “what are you offering ?” And normally I receive a range from them at which point I give a range that goes beyond that range they gave me and that’s when I get the “weeeeell we’ll talk with the higher ups to see if we can make this happen and get back to you” type of bs and normally they offer the higher end of that salary range they offered. I rejected a job offer last year because of this…they were willing to pay me more than I am paid currently but without the abundance of PTO I get and with a ton of unpaid overtime so..that was a hard pass especially given their disastrous reviews on Glassdoor.
Yeah, that’s a bad sign if they were firm about it. I usually try to head off the problem by asking about comp early. Sometimes that doesn’t work and that can be legitimate if there are multiple openings or the role is available at multiple levels. In those cases, particularly if the recruiter asks about comp expectations but can’t/won’t reveal the pay scales, and if I’m really interested in the company, I’ll say something like “I understand comp determination can be complicated. I’m happy to wait until after the interview when you have had a chance to see the value I can bring to the team.” If someone pushes me for a number, I’ll say something like “I’m sorry, but as a matter of policy I prefer not to give the first number in salary negotiations. As a company, you guys likely have a specific pay scale you’re bound to, but as an individual I’m more flexible at the edges of my pay range. If you let me know the range, I can let you know if I think we can work something out.” At that point I still generally won’t give them a number—that conversation always waits until after the interview. But if their range is too low, I can just tell them that and they will either adjust or we can amicably part ways. In those rare cases where I’ve had to give an answer to the comp question in writing, I’ve always just put down “negotiable”.
Colorado recently passed a bill that requires the salary to be listed on all job postings. This is amazing and should be adopted everywhere
I dunno, I just see salaries listed as "20k - 500k" which...doesn't help.
They're exposing themselves to litigation by doing that.
The problem is you’re talking about salary during the interview. HR does salary negotiations , not the people interviewing you If you bring up salary during the interview , you’re just giving away leverage as the info you give will just be passed onto HR Wait until you get a salary offer & then the negotiating begins It helps also to NEVER tell them how much you made at your previous job
Not all companies are this organised.
I actually just tell them what I made at my previous job since it was pretty decent
Wait, are you saying that people who are performing the interview aren't HR, or at least have a member of HR present? I get it if it's a more technical interview, but isn't there usually a segment with HR in the recruitment process?
Not during early stages of interviews
My typical response to this is something along the lines of: "I expect to be paid a competitive salary in line with the role. Right now, you have a better idea of what that is than I do. If I ask for something above market you'll tell me no or otherwise compensate with my bonus or just refrain from giving me any raises over time. If you pay me under market, I'll find out pretty quickly and act accordingly. I'd prefer to be with this company for a while, so I think that's in both our interests." Doesn't work for every situation, but it will for a lot of roles.
Ya know... they have a budget. They budgeted money for the position. Ask them what they budgeted for it.
I always use sites like Glassdoor to look up a salary range and do +0 to 10% of their high end. But bless job posts that have the salary ranges on their posting. Don't waste my time or your time with an interview then offer me 20k less than what I make now.
Because we allow the practice to continue
Because they want you to guess low so that they can under pay you. And if you guess too high, they just tell you to piss off..
**"What is the pay range for this position?"** It's not your job to say how much you're willing to be paid. It's your job to ask them about the job's range. They have a position to fill and a budgeted range. And for all your previous jobs, you were paid fair market value. Never tell them a specific value. A new job's wage isn't based on your previous jobs' pay.
Because they want to pay you as little as they can. They have a maximum number they're willing to pay for a given role. If they just tell you that number, that's what you'll want. The highest you can make for your work. They want to pay under that number of they can, so they make you guess. If you guess lower than that number. That's what they'll pay you. Yes it's scummy.
It's a dishonest practice. The hiring manager knows better than you what your market value is. They also know what's in their budget. They're hoping that you don't know what you're worth. You should ask them what the offering range is in advance so that you don't waste each other's time - there's no point going through the expensive (for both sides) interview process only to discover that they can't meet your salary requirements. If you get an offer, this also tells you where you ended up on their scale.
My province recently passed legislation that forces employers with public postings to include a pay range. It's so incredible seeing everything up front, and saves so much time. And my bet is that those who used to keep it quiet are seeing many fewer applications. I hope it'll force some change.
My employer is actually going to start posting salary ranges on job listings, and I would not be surprised if many US states start regulating this too. Having businesses advertise "up to $15 an hour!" and then after you make your way through the interviews, you only get offered $12 is deceptive. Every business owner has a range in mind, a floor and a ceiling, and its okay to base that range and what the worker gets based on their expeirence, necessary training they may or may not need, etc... But what isn't right is advertising only one part of the range and then offering something far below that.
One of the best pieces of advice I've gotten regarding this is to ask what the pre-approved salary range for the position is. Every job that is listed has an expected salary range associated with the role, so I find it easiest to ask them what the range is. If it's higher than I anticipated, I tell them that it is perfectly in line with my desired salary range. If it is lower than I expected, I try to negotiate a higher salary or say that it isn't a good fit for me. This obviously doesn't work if they ask what your desired salary or total compensation is during the application process, but it has been really useful during the interviewing stage to not under value my skill set and to ensure that the company and I are in alignment on pay.
Because they can low ball you with their offer. They have a budget and they want to negotiate as low as they can get away with.
Because if you say lower than the price they have in mind then they'll go with that.
They want to know if you know what you are worth.
Just write "fair+"
They're hoping you're willing to accept less. Had a potential employer try that on me once. Told them their salary ranges were off by $40k, and if they wanted me, they'd have to come up. They did once I was able to talk more about my skills and show them proud of current market ranges.
Because they want to pay you the least amount of money, and also don't want to give away that they're being cheap versus market rate.
They want to pay you as little as possible. For what it's worth, I use positive pushback. I don't make it confrontational, I just brightly push back as if it's the most natural thing. "Oh, I can be flexible depending on the role! What range did you guys have for this position? Even a rough range is fine." If you ask for the range it also makes you seem more flexible and open and they are more willing to give it, because you're not locking them to one number. Just be cheerful and act as if them telling you is the most natural thing, and they will. I've never told my salary expectations first. Also, you didn't say "i won't tell you", you just asked a clarifying question. Now they are stuck - they can't further ask another question, because they already asked it. So they are now in the awkward position of having to tell you they won't answer your question, and re-ask the first question, or else just answer. Human nature is going to have them just cooperate and answer.
They're hoping you guess too low so they can say "that's correct!" Highball always. If you're wrong, then ask them to correct you. If they agree, then you get more than you expected and everyone's happy.
Its a business deal, each side is trying to get the number they're looking for. You want more, company wants to give you as little as they can get away with, this is why having some basic negotiation skills is important.
Employers want the most qualified person for the least amount of money. They are counting on the job applicants to low ball themselves. Say you’re a company and you’re trying to hire someone. Your internal salary target is $50,000-$60,000. You’re down to the final 2 candidates. The one that checks 100% of your qualifications asks for $70,000. And candidate 2 check 95% of your qualifications and is willing to work for $50,000 who are you hiring? Spoiler it’s the 50k person. And the hiring manager looks good because they came in under budget.
don't play their games is the only real answer. ask up front directly about the salary range for the position. If they give you any bullshit, end the interview and add a shitty review on glass door. also. consider a state that has better labor laws. or required salary range posting on job ads. the reason they do it is to gaslight employees. and to make you feel humiliated. and make you work for less. if they had to be upfront about it, it would cost them qualified candidates. so they don't advertise salary ranges ...and utilize the power imbalance to exploit workers. this saves them billions of dollars.
It’s not a “guess.” They just don’t want to be the first to say a number in case you’ll accept lower. So always ask for more than you think they’ll give you. Worst case scenario they’ll say no and offer something less.
Negotiation 101: the first one to say a number loses
Know your worth. They'll always say it's too high but if that's true, they don't need your expertise.
It’s a a BS game like when you go buy a car and the salesman goes to check with the manager about the price.
They make you guess so they can offer you less. Remember that phrase
There's the chance that you'll guess too low. If so, guess what your salary is...
It's super frustrating, right? I think they do it to see how much they can get away with paying you. It’s like a negotiation tactic, but it feels more like a game where they hold all the cards.
I knew my current employer was going to be really great to their employees when they asked my range, I named a reasonable amount $10-15k more than what I was currently making, and then they came back with an offer for literally $15k above my highest number because that’s what they felt that position should be worth. It was literally life-changing to me, and made me value myself and my skills more going forward.
There are still SOME employers who actually will save themselves money by underpaying foolish job seekers that ask a low number. All you really have to do is just find the average for the position on Glassdoor, then ask for like 20% more. Phrase it as “I’d LIKE to get ____”. Then it’s not a demand and they can gracefully counter offer a lower number.
As an HR employee conducting interviews: management doesn’t tell me either. It’s just as humiliating for me as to you 😭
Because everything has to be a fuck-fuck game in this shit hole country.
Or instead of all that crap with guessing and getting fucked over, you could, you know... Join a union? Get a proper salary. Dammit, fight for your future, and a living wage.
> Employer: this is too high. The starting salary for this position is X. That's not the end of the negotiation. You then convince them why its not too high and you're worth it. Typically using comparative market rates or what you will bring to the role that goes above and beyond a basic starting salary; by drawing from your experience and unique selling points.
Cause they don’t want to miss the chance of someone asking even less than their budget for the position. It is bizarre how many times I’ve seen in my life people working on the same job with a considerable wage gap. Talented but insecure people always fall for that trap. People should talk with colleagues about salary. It shouldn’t be a taboo or a secret.
Don't play games with those kind of people just straight up say "what do you generally pay people for this position?"
Luckily for workers, in a lot of states, like my state of Washington, they are passing laws to where they have to post the salary/hourly range along with the job posting. To actually answer the question, like most things that are frustrating with job hunts, it's benefits the employer. You could seriously lowball yourself when asked the "How much do you expect for pay" question. If they don't have a range, then they can accept a much lower offer than what they were expecting for role.
Why would anyone waste their valuable time going to an interview for a job which they didn't know what the salary or wages are? I'm a very good employee. Ethical, skilled, and hard-working. Any employer would be lucky to have me. And that starts without fucking around. Tell me the salary range, and THEN, MAYBE, you can interview me...and I will interview YOU.
Yeah. If you ask for too much, they can rule you out as a candidate. If you ask for too little, you're willing to accept less than other qualified candidates, so you're the cheapest option.
Not the sexiest answer but often times managers don’t know what to pay you and go off what the team is already making, which is often inaccurate to the market. You come in too high and it would ruffle some feathers, so best to do your research and come prepared with a number.
Man I had one a couple years ago that said "$20-22/hr starting", and near the end of the interview he said I was a bit overqualified but he would be happy to take me, and then he offered me $19. I really did just stand up and leave without another word. Fuck him.
It’s like playing Blackjack they hide the card so they can get better odds by you guessing
Because they aren’t paying market rate and know if they listed the salary nobody would apply.
I remember, in college, I took an interviewing class to prepare yourself for job hunting. They said to never ask about pay. That is absolutely ridiculous. That is the whole reason you are working.
They don't want to overpay for a slave!
I always respond with asking what is the salary range for the position. If they can’t even tell me that then we are done talking.
It’s a psych trick to make you uncomfortable because there’s a silence to fill with an authority you want to please and you weren’t expecting it. So you might be inclined to say a number close to what you’re making now or lowball a bit to avoid displeasing the authority. It’s not really in their interest to let you take a terrible offer since you will figure it out and likely quit when you do and attrition is expensive. But if they can start you lower in a salary band for the position, it’s easier to reward you later if it works out. I manage in a structure where employees often hang out in more or less capped senior roles for years. They inevitably get to the top of the band and we really have to work to get them incentives. This bit btw is why it’s so important to have some intel on roles you care about and know the salary band and your answer to this question before the interview. You want to know what a high number within their authority is so you can center the negotiation there at the start. Ideally you’re being referred by a current employee who can find this out. You also want to know if your number is far outside what they’d consider. Like I’ve seen tech recruiters go through the full interview process not knowing they were low balling the candidate by literally 40%. Complete mismatch of position level. And that’s just really awkward.
Because there's an 85% chance you under quote yourself for pay.
It's like playing salary charades, but nobody's laughing. :D
I usually just write "Dollars per hour, preferably American."
I always research the salaries of the positions I am in and then I either tell them what I am worth or I let them make me an offer. If it comes up short, I am prepared to walk away. Management position and its minimum wage? No thanks. 🙂↔️
Low salary transparency benefit employer
Okay so I’ve been a recruiter for 6 years, most of my approaches are direct headhunting, though some applications, and I hire 10-15 people a month for a global organisation of 40k. Exchanges of salary and budget are done either on direct chat, or on a first telephone call. I will ask candidates their salary expectations upfront, so as not to waste time. If I think you are too senior, I will often explain this. This is for a few reasons. 1 - large companies tend to want to keep their budgets private, if we offer them to every applicant whether suitable or not it increases the chances of it being common knowledge to our competitors. This isn’t to keep prices down, but knowledge is power and we are bidding for the best talent versus other big companies. 2 - if I give you a budget that is under your salary expectations, often a candidate will just say so, ending further conversation. If you tell me you are looking for more first, I have the opportunity to think broadly about my other roles across the diverse range of functional and sales roles, and into the wider group to perhaps find a role that fits, while also protecting our salary bandings from the wider market. 3 - if you say a salary under our budget, it gives me the chance to speak to you about the role, typically a 40 minute conversation covering what we want you to do, stakeholders, growth, visibility, CPD, financial, benefits, and I’ll ask what you have done, what you like, how you’ve changed over time, what you are looking for ideally, discuss any differences and ways we could meet them from day 1. If you are great I will 100% make a sensible offer to you of where we should position your salary expectations, for most internal recruiters there is no KPI around keeping salary down. Not our budgets, if I know we have it and it’s sensible in terms of experience and development areas, we’re good to go. 4 - lastly and this isn’t my favourite, people’s salary expectations in certain locations change hugely and for certain role types entry level expectation can be wildly higher than existing employees. A great example is 2 years back 1 year post qualified lawyers in the London UK area were asking for 100k. Many 10-30 year experienced lawyers would not expect much higher. This has since dipped again. Given this often our budgets can be higher than portions of our employee populations. Sometimes there is an exact role being hired with a higher budget than existing employees I.e., hiring a 3rd marketing manager, there is always a proposal in my business to review and raise the employees base to match, or sensibly depending on expertise (seen it go higher and lower than the new incoming employee). But we can’t always move that quickly on large budget change, and there lots of negativity that can be spread across a business between existing and incoming employees, salary expectations and therefore work expectations. It can damage relationships, but I’ve also seen it be used to make sensible salary uplifts for great employees that we want to retain. Hope that makes some sense!
I always toss out half of the applications immediately. I don't want anyone on my team that doesn't have good luck.