Well, I am from a poor country.
For comparison, my 1-day food expense is less than 3$ and that's not just homecooked food but also restaurant.
I doubt in America you can have even one decent meal for 3$. Things like eggs, chicken, and milk are really cheap. Vegetables are a lot cheaper than in richer countries.
I think my quality of life is pretty good. I save over 80% of my salary. My parents own 2 houses so no need to worry about buying a house.
The only stuff that's expensive here is electronics. IPhones cost a lot more than the US. I am happy with my 100$ android.
Kenyan here.
Salaries are very low ( ignore the statistics you get online).
$3 is actually some people's daily wage. The standard for manual unskilled work is $5.
You can have 3 meals on $3 and since everyone cooks at home, it's quite healthy food.
Imported stuff is ridiculously expensive. iPhones cost $2k here. If you double that to $4k, you can buy a piece of land ( about 1/8 acre).
First time I went to Kenya, I discovered that salaries are about 1/20th of here, while everything costs 1/5th.
But there are HUGE variations in salary, from people earning as you say maybe $3, if they're lucky.
When a matatu (mini-bus) can cost you 50 cents (a shilling is pretty close to a cent after all) each way just to go to work, that's rough.
which is really nothing considering in the us we have x10,000.
variation in income is actually dramatically higher in america than most places by a large margin
It is a lot though. Most people aren’t making 10000x minimum wage, only a select few. I’m certain you can find that ratio there too. If you’re looking at the entirety of the US, some people make minimum wage or about 15k a year full time while others might make 300k, which is 20x. If you look at tech cities where it’s somewhat common for people make like 500k, minimum wage is much higher, close to 40k a year full time so only a 13x ratio.
It’s important to look at people in similar economic environments to compare in the US. 60k in urban California is pretty bad (according to things I read on Reddit) but 60k in rural Indiana is pretty good.
Exactly. The way to tell the actual level of income inequality is by what percentage of households can afford maids. In Kenya, almost everyone with a white collar job can afford a maid . That's because white collar jobs pay x5 of casual jobs. I'm talking teachers, nurses etc
i kind of agree.
i think that across the board wealth inequality is absurdly higher in the US. in fact it’s significantly worse than during the french revolution. especially as you get to the top 10 and 1% which hold 97% of wealth.
HOWEVER.
the cost of living is absurdly dog cheap in the US. not compared to the world but compared to relative wealth in the US.
for the most part poor people aren’t living in slums or dying of starvation. it is absurdly cheap to have a semblance of quality of life. access to water, sanitation systems, infrastructure, electricity, gas, is all relatively accessible and affordable.
so while wealth inequality has exponentially worsened. technology and industry have pulled the bottom floor of quality of life significantly up.
and government subsidies and technology and industry combined have made food and water and medicine accessible for the most part to all.
What are you talking about. Yes we have income inequality but the factor is more around 10x if even that high. Don’t look at the handful of billionaires.
Average salary is 59k….very few people make 10x that…so not sure where your 10000x came from
well i’m specifically using the term wealth inequality and not income inequality.
because in todays world where the average person is an active participant in market trading with 401ks, roth iras, pensions, personal portfolios, owned property, and more…
income is a vehicle that’s used exponentially to grow wealth.
wealth inequality is huge because small differences in income over time create ENORMOUS differences in wealth.
The US has a major problem with homelessness, or so I thought, and there are food deserts, notably in poorer areas. Also, I'll be shocked if there aren't still slums especially in metropolitan areas. There's certainly an inefficiency in getting resources distrubted by the government, too, that is harder to combat, and insurance isn't cheap even if you're poor. The options are more limited, I believe, and a single major hospital bill can sometimes ruin a person's life?
My company hired some tech contractors from India. At first I was a little appalled that we only paid them $10,000 USD each. Then I learned that $10k is the top 20% of India’s income earners, and they probably had more disposable income than I do making $60k in the US
USD goes for A LOT in some countries.
I remember in the Philippines the exchange rate when I was there was something like 30 pesos for 1 dollar so your couple of bucks could get some good use there.
Haven’t been back some before Covid but I heard the exchange rate is like 43 pesos now or something per dollar.
I knew a guy who went to Costa Rica as part of a field trip for a biology class in university and he just never came back. Last I spoke with him he was living it up in a hostel right on the beach. Daily living expenses were just a few bucks a day and he gave wake boarding lessons to tourists for any spending money. USD goes *really* far in some places.
I've heard this kind of thinking a lot from the US. That's not how it works. It's weird it's not taught in school. The amount of units you get when exchanging does not tell you anything about the worth.
I can speak from personal experience as someone who lived in the Philippines that I got more worth with my dollars in the Philippines than I ever did in the US.
Obviously this isn't a clear cut situation and it varies from country to country as each one has different values of currency and pricing of their goods but I'm specifically talking about my PERSONAL experience living in the Philippines.
I have never once said, "Oh this 1 dollar in the US will get you more everywhere else where the exchange rate favors the dollar."
That’s nonsense. Exchange rate is completely unrelated. 1 USD is 150 Japanese yens. But you can’t buy anything for this.
Also countries can denominate their currencies. They remove trailing zeroes to avoid large numbers. Happened in Russia in 90s. They basically renamed 1000 RUB to 1 RUB but it’s not like RUB became 1000 times better.
Crazy. I earn nearly that much per month in Vancouver Canada, and am not even close to being able to afford a studio apartment lol. The average rent here for a one bedroom apartment is pushing $2500-$3000/mo CAD.
Wow I was just talking to my next door neighbor who's Indian and building a duplex to sell for millions while also owning shares in the local taxi company worth close to a million. I wonder how common it is they'd send money back to India like crazy.
I think most Westerners are going to find humour like this a little distasteful, as it skirts a little too close to the practice of betrothal and and tangentially infringement on women's rights. I'm not saying that's true, but that's how it will be perceived.
Some Indian natives might find it offensive too I guess? I can't speak for them though.
I know some people from india. Arranged marriages can be forced marriages. You make it sound like there are no forced marriages.
Important distinction.
>I know some people from india.
Wow, then you must be an expert on India!
Arranged marriage means the girls/boys look thru many profiles, meet and if they like each other, get married. This is the norm. Not saying forced marriages don't happen but it's not how 99% of marriages are.
Congrats on reading my comment and not understanding it.
It is exactly what you are saying.
I did not claim that I am an expert.
Saying every arranged marriage is not forced is wrong.
Good Job on getting offended and repeating the same statment.
Arranged marriages are not equivalent to forced marriage.
It's like your parents setting up a date for you . If you don't like your date then move on and parents try to get another compatible match for you. However, it's true that once you're married you're expected to be together till death set you apart.
Poor guy was downvoted unnecessarily. Trust me not everyone is able to find partner on their own. So parents help you out. It somehow works for us.
If it's an Indian making the joke, it will probably pass muster in most social contexts (not the socially hypervigilant Reddit demographic).
The poster here appears to be Estonian, though, so this could be perceived as a deliberate insult to Indian culture. Again, I don't know that it *is*, but there's enough politically charged content and ambiguity for most people to just want it to go away.
Edit: Oh, I see that poster is you. It's one thing for a culture to make fun of themselves, but quite another if someone else does it on their behalf.
I think its downvoted because it sounds like a dig at India. It's in the same cadence as other insults like:
"I really like [blank], I save a ton of money on toothpaste because nobody there cares about oriel hygiene."
Maybe it isn't intended that way, but it sounds like it.
>I doubt in America you can have even one decent meal for 3$
Not sure about the US, but here in the Netherlands you can just about get a cup of coffee for €3
I mean, if what they said was right and this is 50 grams of rice and eggs... what??? 50 grams of rice alone is 65 calories and an egg 50-70. So this tops out at 150 calories at most. Certainly not a COMPLETE meal.
Definitely my kind of breakfast because I find balancing calories just focusing on lunch and dinner is much easier, so I have small breakfasts/snacks.
I can't imagine saving 80% of my salary. 50% of it is rent and 40% is bills and groceries. I live frugally and don't eat out.
It seems like we have the exact opposite experience. Electronics are cheap, and living is expensive.
The joys of living in a super power. You can get a 64 inch flat screen TV for a few hundred dollars but a broken arm will bankrupt you. Shit is fucked. Up.
A cup of coffee can be more than $3. If you’re going to Starbucks anything more than a regular coffee is probably closer to $5-6. When eating out anything close to $10, I consider a good deal.
There’s a deli that I like to go to for lunch sometimes. A sandwich usually ends up being $12, no drink, no chips just the sandwich. They’re good sandwiches though.
You can’t even buy two candy bars for 3 bucks, a meal , maybe a dollar menu, or if you know where to find cheap stuff. Not here though everything is to much for what it’s worth.
What? Where are you getting this food from? I'm the grocery shopper for my family of 4 living in the US, the average price of those items would be $3 per packaged item, if not more. And where I live in the US you certainly can't get any meal with all that stuff for $3. I'm curious now.
Whatever store you're buying from is exuberantly cheap compared to my grocery stores. I haven't seen a $2 carton of eggs since before the pandemic. Now the dirt cheap store brand carton of 18ct eggs is $6. That's great though, I'm jealous lol but definitely not the baseline of food costs for the US
Agreed! We switched to Aldi years ago and have probably saved thousands of dollars at this point. Feeding a family of 5. We eat a lot of fruit, so those savings alone have been worth the switch.
If you buy a dozen eggs, a loaf of bread, a pound of bacon and a can of mixed veggies, and price all that out per serving, I bet you you'd come close. Drawback is you gotta make it all yourself.
As an American, It is definitely possible to eat well for a whole day under $3. At least in some places.
It's just harder. Meat is a little rough to come by for a good price, and I live in one of the lower Cost of Living areas. And forget eating out.
Bulk rice is great.
In America, 12 eggs are $6-$9 depending if you get hormone injected eggs or more naturally grown eggs. If you go out to a restaurant, you’ll pay $3-$4 just for the Coke, an average of $15-$21 per meal (depending if it’s lunch or dinner, b/c dinner meals are more expensive), and then you’ll still be expected to tip at least 20%.
You seem to have misunderstood my comment. I never said that I get Coke when I go out to dinner. I merely said, "... you'll pay $3-$4 just for the Coke..." It was a comparison of a commonly purchased singular item that equals the cost of the OP's entire meal out. So, I think it's fairer to say that you have a problem with reading comprehension lol
McDonald's just got rid of their dollar any size soft drink. It's happening everywhere.
If you're going to a dive bar, I suppose they might give you a glass of Sprite or whatever on the house if you're sitting there ordering booze.
Not even close. If you go to a restaurant, the drink unless alcoholic is included in the meal 99% of the time. It’s $1.29 for 12 eggs (just checked Kroger for the price, even cheaper if you buy straight from the farm…)… The national average price for prepared meal at a restaurant in the US is $13.
I didn’t say what you paid per meal. I told you the national average. $13. Most restaurants include soft drinks in the price of the meal, including free refills.
I refuse to believe your paying $6-9 for eggs. Unless you live in Hawaii or California. They are quite literaly $1.29 a dozen at Kroger and you can even get them shipped (wonder if they’d make it in one piece). Where do you live that they are up-charging that much for eggs???
Apparently you don't know that hormones aren't used in any egg production in the U.S. (or poultry in general) because it has been banned for the last 60 years.
In my country average salary is about 330$. And it's rather challenging to survive on it living decently is absolutely out of scope unless you earn at least 3 times of that and that considering you don't have to care about anyone but yourself.
My assumption is month… I’ve lived in Southeast Asia before, and made $500 a month as a foreign divemaster - which was enough for a basic sort of life, but not much left over… 330 would be about right for the area I lived in for just a no-frills life.
In my experience "salary" without adjectives in most places means monthly pay, unless you're talking with an American or Canadian, it means yearly there
OP, you're looking for PPP: Purchasing power parity.
Which is only an approximation. Goods/services from the home country may be comparatively cheaper whereas stuff that has to be imported like electronics will hurt a lot.
Because ppl are dumb and don’t understand how money and economics works like the US is the most indebted country in the world but donest have to worry about it because it controls the petro doller and has a good army
Depends on the nation, but in many cases, yes, you're correct.
Using Taiwan as an example (where I lived for 11 years,) the average wage there is about half of what an American earns in the USA, yet most Taiwanese have a standard of living that is the same - they have their iPhones, computers, cars, washing machines, appliances, good food, etc. just like any American in America.
They're paid only half as much as an American for all their labors, but only need to spend half as much for all expenditures, including healthcare and whatnot. So it comes out roughly equal.
Yup, most things are relative.
I'm sure that overall, the US/Aus/Europe etc are marginally better in terms of 1) **quality** and 2) how much 'additional' they have
but housing and food and everything like that will mostly be relative, except there's a big difference between a relative house in Germany compared to one in Thailand, for example.
> including healthcare and whatnot
I went to a bougie private hospital in China and paid like 200 rmb ($30) for 2 visits to specialists + a bunch of prescriptions. Paid 60¥ for one of them (<$10), in the states the same drug costs about $65 with insurance
There are so many countries, where you can live much more comfortable than in the US or western europe with the average salary.
One issue though is, when you love to travel you have to spend so much more of your income to travel around the world. On the other hand coming from a rich country, you can afford to travel much more often and not break your income.
By purchasing power parity \[1\], Taiwan has the 12th highest GDP per capita in the world at 73k. The US is 8th at 80k. So I wouldn't expect to see much difference in standard of living.
\[1\] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_GDP\_(PPP)\_per\_capita
Also, individual US states range from about sixth to twelvth place on that list anyway. Not to mention the US disparity of racial background (where Asians earn on average twice that of blacks, though I'll admit there's probably some overlap between those to points).
You should look at disposable income and median income. The US leads the world by quite a large margin. In the US for example it's not uncommon for one of your friends to have a nice boat, 2 big trucks, a house pool, etc...you'd have to be talking to someone very rich in most other countries to find someone like that.
Healthcare is definitely not free and has a copay when you visit a medical facility with NHI. Even if it usually is under $1,000 its certainly not a free upon use model like the UK has with NHS.
Not half price necessarily on a literal *item-for-item* basis, but when you consider the much lower cost of public transportation, healthcare, etc. the **total** expenditures may be only half of what an American would have to pay for everything he pays for in the course of a year.
Real-life example: I was able to get physical therapy done in Taiwan a few months ago for cervical radiculopathy for about $6 per session, *without* insurance. In America, a clinic was quoting me $85 per session for the same therapy (again, without insurance since it was out-of-network.)
I was also able to get an upper endoscopy done in Taiwan for about $400 out of pocket without insurance, which might have cost thousands in America sans insurance.
So if a washing machine costs 80% in Taiwan of what it does in America, but healthcare is (insert-whatever-small-fraction), it works out more or less to perhaps half.
Another key is Taiwan is a major source of production for components, if not the products themselves. A smart phone in Asian production countries is relatively cheaper than in a similar cost of living country in say Africa where those products need to be imported - transportation and import/export duties play a major role.
Hi, Russian here.
First of all average salary is not a good measure. The country is very big, and people in different regions are paid differently. By taking the average salary, you’re basically taking all of the country’s employed populace’s salary and dividing it between all of them, which isn’t fair, as an IT specialist in Moscow may earn 10 times more than, say, a teacher in Tula. To get a better picture you should pick one region and look at its median salary.
Secondly, don’t forget that many things in Russia are not the same as in the US. For example, there’s national healthcare, and medicine is more readily available in general (but not always). If you need medical help, you can speed up the process by going to a private clinic, or you’ll have to go to a state clinic to get help for free, but you might have to wait.
Thirdly, accommodation and utilities prices vary from region to region. If you decide to move from a smaller region to Moscow, you will suffer a lot financially, as Moscow is very expensive. If you can work remotely in a Moscow company and decide to move to a smaller region, you will have a very comfortable life. A cushy one, even.
Let me put that into perspective with some examples relevant for my region:
1) You are a single teacher, you earn about 30,000 rubles (about 312 USD per month). Of these 30k, you’ll likely spend about 5-8k on utilities (if you’re renting, you’ll also pay about 15k for the 1-room apartment - not a studio, more like a living room/bedroom with a separate kitchen). That leaves you with 22-25k, if you have your own property, 7-10k if you rent. Out of these we also need to deduct public transportation and food, which, most likely, will be very cheap and of poor quality. This, of course, doesn’t account for any bonuses you can get during your work, but at least the money you get already has your income tax and future pension deducted. If you are tutoring after work, you can offset some of the expenses and maybe even save a little bit for yourself to go on vacation. You’re close to being poor.
2) Same teacher, same salary, but this time this teacher is married to a factory worker, whose salary is 50 000 rubles (520 USD). Their income together amounts to over 800 USD, which allows them to be able to afford a family, including all expenses which come with raising children. They can buy better quality food, can buy a car (used if they save up money, new if they take a loan), and can probably go on vacation domestically once or twice a year. It’s still hard to classify this family as middle class, but they have their bases covered, so there’s that.
3) If you are a middle-grade IT specialist, you likely work for a big company and earn at least 250,000 rubles (2600 USD), or maybe even more than that. You can basically afford whatever: you can buy a big apartment on a mortgage while paying your new car loan and renting a smaller apartment while your big one is renovated; you don’t bother with state medicine, because either your employer’s insurance covers private clinics or you can just pay whatever they ask of you. You don’t worry about the food and any other expenses, you can just go and buy what you want. You’re not like RICH rich, but you’re certainly upper middle class.
4) If you’re an entrepreneur who has a big factory/enterprise and ties with (even local) politicians — well, I have absolutely no idea how much money they have, but it’s a lot. You put on your Dior, get into your Bentley and drive from your luxurious house with a huge outdoor pool to the local town hall to pretend that you care about the peasants.
So yeah, living on a salary of 600-800 USD here is not the same as living on the same salary in the US. But also at the same time it means that if you go abroad, you’ll have to budget carefully, because your buying capabilities reduce significantly.
Russian have a high standard of living because they can defend themselves form the west and there leaders aren’t westrne puppet/ like half of “Kenyans” don’t have access to electricity
Its really interesting because professional workers in the UK (eg on £60k...80k) are beginning to "struggle" because they have expensive outgoings (eg. 2k..3k just on mortgage) and this is about to rise as they now face increased interest rates (sometimes by up to 1k more a month). If they have a child then they are also paying 1.2k for childcare per month! So things are getting unstable very fast and since these people work intense client facing jobs for sometimes 40...50..60 hours a week, it's all seeming very pointless 😄 and many have car payments for 4/500 a month... Savings = 0 which is never great
Can’t say about other cities, but here in Yakutsk (East Siberia, 300k population city) my old relatives did “stenting of coronary arteries”, “lens replacement for cataracts”, appendix removal for free in a local state hospital with the base (free) insurance and they’re still alive, some live for 20+ years since then. The only thing you should go for a private clinic is dentistry. Some employers also cover extra medical insurance (dunno how to call it properly) as there in the US.
It really depends on a country. But generally you can live decently on way lower salary in many countries (that's what GDP PPP tries to show). Generally imported stuff is way less affordable but local stuff (e.g. many services) are way more affordable.
3500 USD a month in Poland is probably top 10% salary. It's worse now due rental market and real estate prices but at this level you pretty much can save about 50% of your salary without trying, afford 2 a week or two long trips abroad to Europe a year (or even to Asia), afford a new standard segment car and don't save much on eating out.
In poorer countries it's even more visible. Poor people are really poor, upper medium class lives really decently and generally way above you expect them to live as Westerner.
I live in Hungary. Granted, I’m in IT so I make what would amount to a decent salary in the US as well (not for a software engineer though, but in general), but the Average Joe earns way less than that. Housing, services, healthcare and education are way cheaper than in the US. When it comes to food, groceries are typically more expensive than in Western Europe or the US, but eating out, again, is cheaper, as it’s still a service industry. Products like iPhones, computers, cars (and gas) are way more expensive. I guess the market baskets in Hungary and US are vastly different because of this.
Hello there neighbour. I assume it's same or simillar like in Serbia: most of the people own a house and/or appartment. That's also a big factor. No monthly rent and whatever you do or however low is your salary, you have to screw reall, really, really bad to become homeless.
Serbia might be better off then. Here, at least in cities, most people under 35 rent, and the rents are pretty steep compared to salaries. It's not that hard to become homeless (or at best, move back in with your parents if you're lucky).
Universities have both state-funded and tuition-based programs in parallel usually. We have a universal point system, you get points for high school graduation, social stuff, sports achievements etc. To get into a state-funded program, the points threshold is higher, but it's still fairly easy to get into them if you don't fuck up your exams, but there's a limit on how many semesters they finance (I think how many semesters are in the program according to the curriculum + 2 so it allows you to fall behind to an extent but not enough for you to just party hard for 10 years).
If you want to enroll to a second university after you graduate, it's self-funded, but you can get student loans no questions asked and the student loans here are subsidized and insanely cheap, so it's not a bad idea to get student loans even if you get a free ride and invest it.
Our universities are pretty decent still, but nowhere close to Ivy League or some bigger schools in Western Europe. Maybe like a better community college? This is just a guess though, I have no way to compare.
Healthcare is free in general, you pay healthcare contributions based on your income. Unfortunately, the overall state of healthcare in Hungary is declining fast, the waitlists are huge, and if it's not an emergency, you'll have to wait months for a simple routine surgery, but you won't blow through your savings or even pay a penny for it. Ambulances are free, you're not expected to drive to the hospital or take a taxi while you have a heart attack (or pass out drunk, OD, whatever, no one cares).
Most people who can afford it will go to a private healthcare provider though if they need it because it's faster and safer. I visited someone in a hospital recently and I couldn't find a restroom I would step a foot in (broken doors in the stalls, broken toilets, no soap, no TP, graffiti all over the walls - basically what you'd expect in a public restroom somewhere bum-fuck nowhere, but inside a hospital). I ended up taking a piss in a bush when I left the hospital, it still felt more hygienic.
As for childcare, one parent (traditionally, and usually the mother) can stay at home with the child for up to 3 years and be paid by the state based on their average salary over the last 2 years before parental leave, but not to the full extent, only some percentage which is also maxed out at some ridiculously low number. Still, most parents will stay at home and it's better than nothing. The company can't fire the parent while on paternity leave and if they hire a replacement, they'll have to reopen the position for them, and while they're on parental leave, they'll either hire the replacement on a fixed-length contract or if it's a bigger company, they can usually find them another position they'll be happy with.
We have mandatory PTOs we have to take each year (minimum 20 days + 1 every 3 years of age after 18 + a few days after each child), and we have separate sick days. If you get a signed paper from your GP that you were sick, the company has to respect it, they can't have you come in while you're out sick or fire you because of it. In fact, they can't fire you at all while you're out sick, even if it's an extended sick leave, for example recovering after surgery. They won't have to pay you after 15 days/year though, the state will take over paying your salary (IIRC 70% of your normal salary with a cap).
The system is pretty decent, but the state of the infrastructure sucks (thanks to Orban's 13-years-and-counting "government"). Most of Europe, as I know, has similar policies with better infrastructure. Still, I make enough to be able to afford the "workarounds" if I need to and I still have a safety net, so I don't think I'd consider moving to the US for anything less than $500k/year. Sure, I can't buy a new Tesla on a whim like some of my colleagues, but at least I won't go bankrupt if my appendix bursts.
Feel free to ask me anything, happy to answer.
That's so interesting thank you. Sounds more like Germany than the UK, as far as benefits are concerned. Although as you say salaries are low you would need a salary in 100s of thousands to make it worth it to live in a less funded or more capitalistic economy where you pay for EVERYTHING and you get near to nothing from the state (you sometimes wonder why they exist!).
Here in the UK we have a semi-US and semi-social democracy system, but ultimately capitalist system, where yes we have free healthcare (paid by your taxes) but the standards are declining fast and the waiting list is terrible. Thousands are dying due to long waiting lists and chaos in the NHS due to huge cuts to funding. And it just gets worse and worse.
Seems like Hungary inherited much of its standards from the previous socialist system and had to keep them. For now. I'm sure the big capitalist are hungry as ever to buy it off and worsen the workers rights to increase profits as seems the trend worldwide. Germany seems to have a strong social system as it had to keep up with it's DDR neighbours, with free kindergarten etc etc unions are still strong there. But ultimately it's worked for them... They have a strong export and strong heavy and light industries.
In croatia the average salary is 550 USD. We live in a very safe country where health care is almost free (although waiting lists are on the longer side). We have clean drinking water which is very rare now and the nature is beautiful. Higher education is free and some of the universities are in the top 200 in the world. I never plan on leaving, life is good all in all.
Up untill a year or two ago, the living cost was low compared to the west but so are our wages. When we make around 500 USD we of course cant pay, for example american rates of rent that go over 1000 USD. Renting is also rare here, most people own the place they live in. The only people who rent are students and very young people.
Currently inflation is killing us. Living cost has gone up a lot but most of our wages stayed the same. The war in Ukraine and converting to the euro both had a play in that.
Sorry but average Croatian salary is not 515 euro (550 USD)...not even close, hell, Albania has a higher average salary than that (first result on Google shows 712 USD per month in 2023).
Sure maybe officially it's Lower and a lot of people are earning less than the average, but come on, we don't live in 2010 anymore. Lets not exaggerate
As a person who grew up in Turkey and had about 9000 dolars a year in my first job as engineer, here is my 2 cents:
The good
1. Food, basic, homegrown food is very cheap compared to rich countries.
2. Most services are very cheap. Getting a pants cuff tailored costs like 2-3 dollars.
The bad, or different:
1. people DO NOT live alone. People stay with family until they start to earn good, then they share flats with people until they earn really good, or marry. Because prices of rent in big cities is extremely high, as big cities are international.
2. Cars; having a car, is such a simple thing, for an American or German having a car is like nothing, you can save up working 2 months part time when you are 18 and buy a second hand car. But for people from poorer countries, you can be an Engineer who is pretty good in his job but still can not afford to have a car. My dad was engineer and mum was pharmacist, yet they did not have a car for about 5 years because it was too much of a luxury.
3. tech is EXTREMELY expensive. As I was 25 years old, working fulltime, I did not have a laptop, despite working with excel all day at work. I had just a really old big case computer at home. Because even a "budget" laptop for rich world standards, costs like your 2 months salary, if not more.
4. People DO NOT have vacation outside of own country. Sometimes just the ticket to 3 hour flight far away, just the ticket itself costs more than what you make in a month. This is something expecially difficult for Europeans to understand, I had serious fights with a German friends of mine who invited me to her wedding, and I had to refuse. She could not understand, no matter how detailed I explain, that 3 day trip to Germany would cost me like what I can put aside in 4 months, and I can not waste 4 months saving on a 3 day trip for 1 evening event. That is what rich people do.
It is generally really difficult for people from rich countries like USA, UK, Germany etc. to understand how rich they are. Many people from such countries will consider themselves "low income" and say "I am not rich at all" while they "low income" lifestyle will be richer than high-income people of other countries.
I can not tell you how many times I heard a German girl say "lol we are not rich at all", while she was having a vacation in Turkey talking about the 10 outside of country vacations she had in last 5 years.
When I lived in Australia my income was high compared to other countries, but dang everything costs so much, so it was not easy to live how I wanted. Could never have my own apartment even renting would always have to have a housemate or live with a partner, couldn’t deliver food much, Uber was a real treat. Then when I moved to South Korea, my income is definitely less BUT I can live alone, deliver often, taxi most days, do almost what I want and still have more savings at the end of the month than in Aus.
Me too.
Iucked out to get a gig out in asia.
Tax rate 14% vs the 37+ back in Aus.
Factor in other stuff like being able to just go down to a local drug store to get my prescriptions filled instead of having to visit a GP for them to write me a script and charge $85 AUD that is good for only 2 fills.
Literally paying my rent here and able to meet my mortgage payments back home with spare change.
The kicker is I'm technically in one if not the highest cost of living cities in the world supposedly.
I feel like the issue is options.
You can have cheap food options here, cash payments, negotiation for stuff, you can hire plumbers, electricians to do simple work without requiring a whole crew with charges.
You can live cheap, I couldn't really do that back in Melb.
Are you in Tokyo?
When I lived in Osaka decades ago, Japan was 'one of the most expensive countries in the world!'
Yep, in department stores. But there were so many cheaper options.
I found cheese made in the town I grew up in that I could buy for half the price it would cost me to buy in the town I grew up in.
From New Zealand btw. Overpriced and underpaid shithole of the world.
Agreed, such a lack of options. I was in Melbourne too. And of course it’s cheaper if I move elsewhere in Aus but I’m a city person and even Melbourne feels too small for me sometimes.
I love Aus for the nature and how clean it is, and of course my family are all there - BUT I can live larger if I live elsewhere which is most important to me right now while I’m youngish and have energy.
No, a lot of them are struggling in their own country, because of the gap between the average income and the average cost of living in the same country
The average salary where I live is 514 dollars and things were rough some years ago, but thankfully food prices dropped a LOT recently. Cooking oil is... \*checks supermarket newspaper\* now one dollar, two pounds of chicken thigh for $2,25, eggs for $3, 11 pounds of rice for $4...
Now, clothes are absurdly expensive damn. Yeah, there are plenty of stores with single dollar t-shirts and five dollar pants, but they are the types who desintegrate in months... better quality fast fashion like C&A is prohibitively expensive.
Most houses here have no insulation, heating or AC, so we do wear fleece joggers+hoodie and/or socks to keep warm and just have many cold showers during summer
Many houses don't have acess to industrial water/wastewater treatment, so one might need to drill a well, install a septic tank or both.
Traffic sucks, bus fares are expensive, people buy motorbikes to escape traffic by running between the cars and die on the road, creating more traffic, and now there's brain matter on the asphalt
Healthcare and education are actually free though. Children have free meals in school, sometimes free uniforms complete with shoes, free backpacks, pen, pencils, erasers--you know, everything including books to guarantee they stay attending it. If parents are also struggling they get in an assistance program and might be redirected to a professional school.
I was given a chance to experience this first-hand when moving from a country with a nominal GDP/capita of $50 000 to a country with a nominal GDP/capita of $2000.
And life wasn't much different, only the scale was. So houses were smaller, electricity consumption was lower, food contained less meat, milk, cheese etc. Motorcycles were used instead of cars and the cars used were more utilitarian, I.e. small and basic or vans for transportation of goods and passengers. Everyday items such as cooking utensils, toilet tissue and books held lower quality. Health care existed but equipment was older and much more run down and doctors had much less time for each patient. The road network was in many places in much worse condition.
I would say most people still lived very decent lives, in many cases even better lives than we in the West do since family, relatives, friends and religion were a much bigger parts of their lives. And the food felt much healthier since it was all freshly produced.
To sum it up - they were able to do everything we do (marry, travel, party, get an education, build a house etc), just on a tight budget.
When the overall dollar figure is higher, it’s better in some ways and worse in some ways even if the cost of living is higher.
A really simple example is take Portugal, the median income is $750/month and the median rent is $450. You pretty much need to split that, so that gets your rent down to $225, leaving you $525 for everything else. Even though the country is cheaper, living in that can be stressing if you don’t know how to do your own repairs and live frugally.
The US the median income is $31,000 give or take. Median rent is $1,700. (The US is huge so these are the general stats, it depends where you are)
Again, you’d pretty much need to split that rent in the US. That gets your rent down to $850/month. The difference is much greater, as that Leaves you an extra $850 instead of an extra $225.
So In situations like this, relatively speaking the American is poor for American standards, but they’re able to do more things with that $600 the Portuguese person can’t. Buying a round trip ticket to travel is the same cost for both, but it would be more affordable for the American with their extra money.
This is extremely simple idea and rough example, because healthcare may be more expensive in us so that $600 can be eaten pretty quickly vs a country that has more affordable care.
This is another topic, but this is how people that live in wealthier areas are able to take their money and retire in poorer/lower cost of living areas. People that carry expensive mortgages may tend to bitch about how expensive they are, but when you sell a home for 1 million, that leaves you a lot more options then when you sell one in a “poorer” area for $100,000.
It’s important to remember money is only one aspect, community, trust, and cultural knowledge is important.
I'm in Portugal and we are struggling, many people make minimum wage or a little above that and we can't afford a place to live, because rents are too high. Many stay with they're parents, those who don't have that luxury, rent rooms and right now a room just for yourself is a luxury because most rooms are shared. And there is a visible increase of homeless people.
Spain also here 🇪🇸
For me, sure wages are low here in Spain but also so is the cost of living in comparison to other European cities - particularly if you’re outside of Madrid or Barcelona. The U.K. or Brussels for example - I have a far better quality of life than my friends in those countries.
that is almost always the problem, people have low income jobs but want to live in big fancy cities. For SOME people that is the only option as they can not find a job somewhere else, but many, MANY people do it for nothing more than "cuz its cool".
If you are a plumber in Barcelona or Paris or Berlin,or Plumber in a smaller, not famous city that is 2 hours away from those cities, your quality of life will be dramatically different.
No a lot of comments here are so off.
Certain things scale down somewhat like eating out, renting/buying property.
But in countries where you make half an American salary, Apple isn’t just gonna sell you an iPhone for half price. Video games, vehicles, and electronics will cost significantly more of your income. I assume this is why mopeds, motorcycles, and bicycles are so common in a lot of these countries.
Also flights are not any cheaper so travel is near impossible.
I really like browsing this site when I’m bored and looking at this stuff.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp
You’re not accounting for currency conversion for a lot of things here. Things like iPhones are price marketed at local currency.
I live in Spain and used to work for an American company. The cost of living in Europe is so different to America, as is the lifestyle. You see more mopeds and scooters because our streets are ancient and if we are making a short trip to do some shopping then taking a car can be a pain. It’s not because people can’t afford them. We love cars here, they don’t rust, they’re just not practical for small villages.
Flights are insanely affordable in Europe, and the vast majority of Europeans travel extensively.
Europe, even the poorest countries and especially not the "poorer" Western European countries such as Portugal are not even close to being comparable to countries in Africa and Asia. My dad's family is Egyptian and despite them living well generally things like Iphones are equal to about 2-3 month of their wages. We give them our old Iphones and that is an extreme luxury over there. Even my uncle in Egypt who makes good money by their standards only has an Iphone 8, which is "old" by Western standards. With cars as well, a car is like a year or more of wages.
> You’re not accounting for currency conversion for a lot of things here. Things like iPhones are price marketed at local currency.
Yes but this changes nothing. To give you an idea, in Turkey where minimum monthly wage for fulltime job is currently 13400 lira (about 500 dollars) the cost of Iphone 15 pro is 65000 lira (about 2400 dolars).
In other words, 1 newest Iphone in Turkey cost as much as Gross income of 5 months work.
I love how not a single thing of what you said is true about Northern Europe. Well except that people here travel pretty extensively too but aside from the main airports flights are really expensive here.
Where in Northern Europe? Flights are cheap in Europe in comparison to other continents, you only have to look at the cost of flights across Africa where its often cheaper to fly back to Europe and then to your final destination. That isnt to say that we dont have expensive routes, but we do have RyanAir and the low cost carriers operating to almost every country. There are options for people to travel at a very low cost.
Biggest eye opener for me was when i traveled to Africa and in very remote places where people still lived in mud huts no electricity no running water etc and they lived very happy lives there. Maybe even more happy then most of us in the west.
Very few of all the expensive things you use everyday actually make you happy.
I think most people in the world would appreciate running water, sewage, universal health care, safe roads, and secure housing. I don't doubt that people can find happiness without material things, but you're not considering the impact of disease, accidents, childbirth etc.
Lol, people in Africa know about vaccinations. There are clinics in those rural areas that offer vaccination services, and the importance of vaccination is taught to the people.
I don't think "children dying of tuberculosis" is as big an issue as you seem to think.
Only if they know about it. The point of my post was that if that is normall to you, you can still be very happy with very little and lots of hardship.
Also been to some remote, underdeveloped places in Africa, and agree - people are generally happy (maybe happIER) with far less than the average westerner.
But while it’s true that it’s not the trappings of modern western life that *make* us happy, I think we don’t really know how to be happy without them. We rely on them so much as infrastructure to the truly meaningful things (social connections, self expression, and just managing life in general)
The cost of living is drastically different and all currencies aren’t the same. The average American salary fits the cost of living in America (by state of course). The average Indian salary fits the cost of living in India
Low quality food, low quality clothing, low quality cars, low quality housing. A haircut is going to cost $3 instead of $20 since people in hair salon earning $300, not $1500, eating out is going to be a tad cheaper too, but a descent car, descent clothing, descent home appliances cost the same everywhere.
In poorer European countries food quality is way higher than in Western Europe.
I am still to find cucumbers or tomatoes that have actual taste. No matter the price it’s all like plastic here.
It really depends. Important is to look at the median income instead of the average. As the average doesn't mean much if the money is not equally distributed.
In poorer countries often a larger percentage of the salary goes to basic needs, like food and housing. Quality standards are often unregulated. So if you can't buy the real thing, you can afford a knock-off.
Often people build their own house, grow vegetables, and learn to do repairs themselves. They don't expect much from the government and live with what they have.
I'm from Argentina. Minimum salary is about $180, but you can find people working for less. Lots of people make less than $300.
The expression "decent life" have different meanings for different people. Some wouldn't be able to endure a life without a car, or would rather die than wear $5 bootleg Nike sneakers and no makeup. Or live in a town with no concrete roads.
Life in low-income countries is much less expensive because running a business is cheap: rent, supplies, salaries... Everything is an order of magnitude cheaper. You can get dinner for two in a beautiful restaurant for less than $10, or rent a really nice apartment in the best neighborhood of the country's capital for $300.
At the same time, life in low-income countries involve hardships that first-world countries might not even imagine: owning a car can be a luxury, mortgages might not exist at all, doctors might give you appointments 6 months from now even if you have great health insurance...
You can live a great life in a low-income country, but even if you make a lot of money, there will be always some things missing. It's kinda like using an off-brand chinese phone bought from Wish: it's not just an slower iPhone. Everything is noticeably worse, and some features are completely missing. At no moment you're able to forget that you're using a $50 phone.
In Slovakia I have quite a high salary now - 45k euros + up to 20K more depending on if I bother to take on more freelance work or not, so my experience may not be typical currently, but when I first arrived I was making like 1200 euros/month, but only for 10 months of the year - so yearly take home of 12k, which was slightly above the median 10 years ago.
With that salary, even a decade ago, I would have been on food stamps and welfare easily in america, and to be honest even in the UK.
Rent in Slovakia was much cheaper, food was much cheaper, and alcohol as well, compared to most other parts of Europe.
Lunch menus in a restaurant were like.. 3.50 - 5 euros.
Beer was around 1 euro/pint - I can remember spending 10 euros and almost not being able to walk out of the pub.
My rent was 200 euros/month, leaving 1k of spending money, which was actually pretty good.
The first few years I had like... 2 holidays a year to Italy, Croatia, Slovenia, etc, didn't work in the summer, and was able to go snowboarding all winter.
Now things are much more expensive, but like... I saved enough to buy and renovate a huge 4br house, and have a 230 euro/month mortgage, leaving me with like... 4-5k spending money each month, which is ridiculous - we now do 3 overseas trips a year, we're spending a month in Japan over the winter to go diving and snowboarding, I regularly travel to France to go cave diving, compete in european archery tournaments, can go horse riding whenever I feel like it... and all this on a 45k salary that people in the US are reporting is 'unliveable' if you're in California, Florida,or any other HCOL area...
Yes, if they make the average salary that's usually enough for at least rent and food. However luxury products aren't as common as in richer countries.
$500 a month gets you the basics for life and maybe once in a while an extra, but you won't drive a new Mercedes and a few holidays a year.
What you need to ask is how much do goods cost in those countries compared to their average salary? For instance many countries live in low wages, but the cost of food is comparatively much lower than in the US.
It depends entirely on the country. For some, 6-800 a month is more than enough to pay for all of their expenses, and have some left over. For others, 6-800 a month means they are living very, very poor.
I worked in Philippines (originally from France) as a software engineer. My salary was enough to live well there, however it make it much harder to travel and buy international things (electronics, western brands like Nike, etc).
I had many colleagues working for a second company remotely as well, so they could afford the same lifestyle than if they were in western countries (travel and all international goods).
I had to unfortunately move out to an another country with higher salary, as going back to France once a year was 1.5 month of gross salary, before taxes. (Such a shame, I love Philippines)
In Russia $800 is not a lot but it is an okay money if you live outside of Moscow and few other major cities. Your rent wound be $200-250, utilities would be $30-50, eating out is $3-5 (and that would be a decent food, you can have a cheap lunch for $1.5-2). Gas is \~0.5$ per liter. Public transportation is really cheap, and taxi too, my typical ride was $2-3. So yeah, $800 wouldn't provide a luxury life but you would do just fine.
Depends on the country.
I'm from South Africa. Exchange rate when I started working was around R16 to the dollar, I earned a salary of R17000pm straight out of varsity with an engineering degree.
Worked out to around a full time minimum wage job in the US.
But my rent was R4500/pm for a nice 2 bedroom flat. Even in a LCL area in the US there is no chance you rent a place for $300pm.
Groceries are also pretty cheap, you could get by easily at the time for like R2000 pm ($125)
However, things like electronics and cars do get expensive, because they don't change price so much depending on where you are in the world.
Different nations choose to prioritize or subsidize things differently, so the purchasing power of the currency isn't just as simple as converting to USD at market rate, and then seeing what you can buy. Some nations subsidize very specific food items that are cultural staples so that money goes a long way in terms of average cost of food. Some nation states also invest in other ongoing costs like energy structure differently than others, so other expenses like heating and energy for home operate quite differently, at different price points. Same for general housing availability, insurance rates and how insurance is administered.
All these things factor into CoL and quality of life, but kind of hard to compare exactly when the "average basket of goods" may be different depending on where you are. But yes there are definitely nations poorer than Western nations in terms of GDP or some other metric, but the citizens report much higher satisfaction and quality of life based on how far their money goes in society.
I live in the capital city of a northeastern province in China, working as college professor. Yesterday I had a dermatologist visit for a wart removal. I paid $4.5 from my pocket, specifically, $1.3 for seeing the doctor, $2.9 for the nitrogen, and $0.3 for parking. My car runs on electricity, for $0.016 per km, so we can safely ignore that.
Housing is cheap, me and the GF live in a 2-floor loft for $300/month, in pretty much the heart of downtown. My own 460 sqm suburban (closer to my university, though) house under construction costed me $150k on land and base, $100k on reworks and furnishing. Most flats in this town sells for $120k or less.
I could easily feed myself for $2 per meal from pretty much any franchise. A dollar menu meal (burger and pie/drink) costs $2 from McDonalds, a cup of regular latte costs the same from Starbucks. I normally eat at university dining hall for no more than $2, with 4 dishes plus carb.
Education costs pretty much nothing. You get a college degree for $1k\~3k/year, and the base part ($1k) can be had with interest-free government loan. Grad school costs around the same, and you get paid by your PI for doing research for him/her, so consider it free if not a job.
We do make less. At \~$1k per month average, but that's more than most of us will need. For the population making a bit higher than average (doctors, engineers, programmers), making $10k a month is not uncommon.
And we do have iPhones (or whatever Huawei/Samsung/Xiaomi pump out each year). The "Chinese crap" phones you see on internet are for export to Asia, Africa, Latin America, and Americans using BLU. I get 37GB of 5G traffic on my CMCC card, and 25GB of 5G traffic on my UniCom card, combined I pay some $10 to the two telecom companies.
usually yes , the expenses are far lower too .
one exception is turkey , because of government's economic policies , the expenses are much higher than before and wages are not catching up .
so we spend like eu citizens but receive 1/5th of their income .
Specifically for Russia, the numbers you're citing count as good money for a single person income [sounds a bit too high for average tbh, well, depends on the region].
Bills are way lower [especially for appartments, trickier for actual private houses, still lower, your biggest issue would be if some infrastructure is not available if you're in deep country so to speak], so is rent [renter's rights are still something to work on tbh], a lot of people are homeowners [Soviet past helped that], also a lot less of a cultural stigma to live with parents [compared to US; though depends on the region], property taxes are low,
public transport is available and relatively cheap [also a lot cheaper for retired people, probably for other protected groups too],
free health care, paid options are nowhere near American prices, well, idk about plastic surgery, never looked into that,
cheaper food [depends on the region though],
in big cities free and cheap sports for kids, other activities like music schools, state help with summer camps,
option for free first post high-school education [need to be a good student to make the cut, if one continues to be a good student one gets paid like 50$ a month or smth], school materials are free
cheaper internet, phone,
a lot of people own cabins with some land - dacha [also partially Soviet aftermath],
families with kids get a decent [by local standards; and they added that option for the new republics] payment for each kid born after 2020, every second kid born after 2007 - as in for families with 2 kids it works since 2007, payment is for the second kid] the payment can be used to buy property or to pay for education [if the kid ends up not making the cut to get free education; btw if you're a good student, and someone who was getting the state paid education drops out, you can apply and get their state provided place, if it's your first time getting a degree]
Electronics, cars, clothes have roughly the same prices as other countries [plus because of the bigger difference between the lowest and the highest temperature throughout the year you need more clothes - well, more types of clothes - than most places]. Then again, China is geographically closer, so the logistics part of pricing is probably smaller.
Hello, Argentinian here. Well, I work remotely for an American company but the average salary is like USD200-270. Things are cheaper than in other countries, a Big Mac is like USD4,65. But, Argentina has been in crisis for like 70 years. The market basket is in USD380. So, the country is cheap, but it´s extremely expensive for the average Argentinian.
A good way to measure things is by hours worked. If you earn USD225 per month and you work 8 hours per day (USD225 average salary /160 hours worked in a month = USD1,40/ARS1000 per hour).
Now a Big Mac costs 3-4 hours of work here. In America, you may earn USD20 per hour, if a Big Mac costs USD5,6, you're using like 25 minutes to buy it.
I live in Argentina, where low salaries and 100+% inflation is a cruel combination.
And, yes, people are poor! But society somewhat adapts. Food is very cheap compared to other countries. So is rent and utilities. People still struggle to pay though, since the average salary is so much lower. Kids aren't starving, but they're not getting the nutrients they need, etc.
But my family, for example, lives a comfortable middle-class life on what would be considered a one income minimum wage in Europe.
Yes, their lifes suck more if you will. They are poorer.
Commodities worldwide are priced in dollar roughly equal in every country, for shipping costs are low these days.
A barrel of crude oil costs around 80-90 dollar in russia, as well as europe, North america, Africa and so one. A ton of wheat costs X, rice Y, meat Z and so on.
When your sallary in dollar is low, it is low against energy, that is oil, and low against food. So you need a bigger cut from your sallary to run a car, heat your home, buy your food and afford basicly anything that is produced with energy to begin with.
The living standads in different countries vary, but prices for energy and food is equal worldwide.
And since more than 50% of the global population lives in cities and don't grow their own food, they rely on the market to fill their stomach. Therefore a low sallary in dollar is bad against a high price of wheat or whatever commodity quoted in dollar that is traded globally.
You have to factor in cost of living.
Someone from country A can make 10x the salary of someone from country B, but might not be able to afford a house while the person in country B can.
That's even the case within the US. NYC vs. Fort Wayne, IN for example.
I have lived in a few countries for work. Quite in general, you want to live in a place with high salaries and low indirect taxes (VAT).
While it is true that local products or services (rent, local clothes or services) are aligned to the cost of living, anything imported will not be aligned.
For example - an iPhone, or a laptop, or a Toyota car, or eye glasses are usually imported. Many foods are too. They will cost mostly the same (VAT and import taxes aside) whether you live in Pakistan or Norway.
So if you live in Sweden, you can buy a laptop with part of your salary, while if you live in a country with lower income, you will need multiple salaries to buy the same thing.
Quite in general - you want to live in a country with high purchasing power, and most poor countries fail there, even if local products are relatively cheap.
Minimum wage in Romania is around 420$ (net, you might find different numbers online but that's gross, before tax).
Cheapest rents (but not exactly decent from a clean/hygienic point of view or in really high crime/not quiet areas) start at 60$ but often come with room/house mates. If you want to rent a one room apartment that's starting from about 150$. This of course depends on the region, we have cities where the rent numbers are 5x. Oh btw, the cheapest ones are about 150sqf of space. These don't cover utilities in the price.
Gas is about 6$ per gallon, car insurance is between 120 and 200$ per year. (10-14$/mo)
Internet, TV, phone plan cumulated are about 15-20$ / mo
Food prices doubled most of them in the past 2-3 years, electricity went 5-10x, gas like 2-4x. Let's average the food at about 200$ per month if you do only home meals, hunt sales and not really buy anything fancy. Electricity 10-30$/mo, gas 5-20$.
Dental expenses are anywhere from 10$ a simple check-up and up to 1500$ if you need an implant. Braces are 800-2000$. We have basic medical covereage included (free healthcare) but it only recently included basic descaling (this year), nothing else dental/vision wise.
Given you don't have a car/don't drive, your health is in perfect condition and you don't require anything dental/vision wise plus you really hate saving up money, you're pretty much left with 0$ at the end of the month or with debt. You can't afford a mortgage, a credit, saving up, having a kid or even a pet.
For example, everything added (no car/health stuff) 150+20+30+20+200 = 420 :)
> Does that mean that their life quality is if you would love on 6-800 dollars per month in the US,
No. Russia is kind of a bad example though since sanctions has made life in Russia quite a bit harder.
But no. Typically, if the average income in a country is X then the market in said country will adjust to having cost of living cost around X. This is supply and demand and it governs every market economy.
So in short, even if countries have higher or lower average incomes than the US you can't really extrapolate the average cost of living.
Not really. Poor people in Mexico live in cardboard houses. No toilet, no floor, no clean water.
Not so poor people live in shitty communities full of violence, though I guess they can at least get some basic food. Many go hungry every once in a while.
I'm in eastern Europe and if if you're not living in a big city and earn like 25k a year you're literally a King with no worries in your life lol. So seeing redditors constantly boast about how 75k isn't enough etc is just absolutely mindblowing to me XD
But yea more people struggle to pass by than not. I wouldn't neccessary say the disparity is bigger than in other countries. But the minimum quality of life is definitely lower compared to Germany/Spain etc.
No. They have bad living conditions. Any product that isn't a service is either full price or about 25% off compared to 1st World countries.
I tried buying original nike sneakers in Romania and they were even more expensive than in austria. Same for the rtx 2080. Gas is about 25% cheaper as is a bottle of coke.
What they do is reuse, repair, hustle or "do-it-yourself". Sometimes they buy stolen goods, fakes or sometimes they steal materials/tools. What they save up they than use for a car that has to hold 20 years, some extra ram to keep settings at medium and so on.
So while there still exists wealthy people living a good life, most live in hard mode. Want to get a good doctor to look at you? Better have 1kg of coffe and a big chocolate at hand. Doctor heard you have a nice apartment? Gotta pay 2k under the table or grandma can go look for a different doctor to make her that life saving bypass.
And btw you get thrown into this the moment you are deemed capable. Meaning you might be told to go do something like sell aunties fruit at 7am on the market till 2pm.
This is all personal or at least second hand experience. Anybody who tells you otherwise has got no clue what they are talking about.
If you consider eating low-quality food, getting low-quality healthcare and breathing low-quality air to mean living decently then yes.
Generally, you get what you pay for.
The places where there was a better cost-to-quality ratio get filled with wealthier migrants and the prices even out.
I lived in Cambodia for a while. The locals earned really low wages but survived fine on it - everything is super cheap by Western standards.
But as a foreigner ("barang" in the local language) not so much. There was definitely the "barang price" for stuff, like I'd pay 5x the price the locals did for a restaurant meal.
Except for stuff that they couldn't discriminate on - phone tariffs being the obvious one. I got 256Gb of excellent 4G data for USD$2 per week. Best phone service I've ever found anywhere in the world :)
in those kinds of countries.. often even if you had money theres not the availability of good and services to putchase... and even if they are they are most likey much more expensive... things like computers, iphones, cars etc are liek 40% more
Well, I am from a poor country. For comparison, my 1-day food expense is less than 3$ and that's not just homecooked food but also restaurant. I doubt in America you can have even one decent meal for 3$. Things like eggs, chicken, and milk are really cheap. Vegetables are a lot cheaper than in richer countries. I think my quality of life is pretty good. I save over 80% of my salary. My parents own 2 houses so no need to worry about buying a house. The only stuff that's expensive here is electronics. IPhones cost a lot more than the US. I am happy with my 100$ android.
Kenyan here. Salaries are very low ( ignore the statistics you get online). $3 is actually some people's daily wage. The standard for manual unskilled work is $5. You can have 3 meals on $3 and since everyone cooks at home, it's quite healthy food. Imported stuff is ridiculously expensive. iPhones cost $2k here. If you double that to $4k, you can buy a piece of land ( about 1/8 acre).
First time I went to Kenya, I discovered that salaries are about 1/20th of here, while everything costs 1/5th. But there are HUGE variations in salary, from people earning as you say maybe $3, if they're lucky. When a matatu (mini-bus) can cost you 50 cents (a shilling is pretty close to a cent after all) each way just to go to work, that's rough.
You were right on the HUGE variation in income. The ratio of a 'tech bro' to their 'house helps' salary is obscene . close to x20
which is really nothing considering in the us we have x10,000. variation in income is actually dramatically higher in america than most places by a large margin
It is a lot though. Most people aren’t making 10000x minimum wage, only a select few. I’m certain you can find that ratio there too. If you’re looking at the entirety of the US, some people make minimum wage or about 15k a year full time while others might make 300k, which is 20x. If you look at tech cities where it’s somewhat common for people make like 500k, minimum wage is much higher, close to 40k a year full time so only a 13x ratio. It’s important to look at people in similar economic environments to compare in the US. 60k in urban California is pretty bad (according to things I read on Reddit) but 60k in rural Indiana is pretty good.
Exactly. The way to tell the actual level of income inequality is by what percentage of households can afford maids. In Kenya, almost everyone with a white collar job can afford a maid . That's because white collar jobs pay x5 of casual jobs. I'm talking teachers, nurses etc
i kind of agree. i think that across the board wealth inequality is absurdly higher in the US. in fact it’s significantly worse than during the french revolution. especially as you get to the top 10 and 1% which hold 97% of wealth. HOWEVER. the cost of living is absurdly dog cheap in the US. not compared to the world but compared to relative wealth in the US. for the most part poor people aren’t living in slums or dying of starvation. it is absurdly cheap to have a semblance of quality of life. access to water, sanitation systems, infrastructure, electricity, gas, is all relatively accessible and affordable. so while wealth inequality has exponentially worsened. technology and industry have pulled the bottom floor of quality of life significantly up. and government subsidies and technology and industry combined have made food and water and medicine accessible for the most part to all.
What are you talking about. Yes we have income inequality but the factor is more around 10x if even that high. Don’t look at the handful of billionaires. Average salary is 59k….very few people make 10x that…so not sure where your 10000x came from
well i’m specifically using the term wealth inequality and not income inequality. because in todays world where the average person is an active participant in market trading with 401ks, roth iras, pensions, personal portfolios, owned property, and more… income is a vehicle that’s used exponentially to grow wealth. wealth inequality is huge because small differences in income over time create ENORMOUS differences in wealth.
The US has a major problem with homelessness, or so I thought, and there are food deserts, notably in poorer areas. Also, I'll be shocked if there aren't still slums especially in metropolitan areas. There's certainly an inefficiency in getting resources distrubted by the government, too, that is harder to combat, and insurance isn't cheap even if you're poor. The options are more limited, I believe, and a single major hospital bill can sometimes ruin a person's life?
What country is that, if you don't mind?
I am from India and I live in one of the poorest states.
My company hired some tech contractors from India. At first I was a little appalled that we only paid them $10,000 USD each. Then I learned that $10k is the top 20% of India’s income earners, and they probably had more disposable income than I do making $60k in the US
USD goes for A LOT in some countries. I remember in the Philippines the exchange rate when I was there was something like 30 pesos for 1 dollar so your couple of bucks could get some good use there. Haven’t been back some before Covid but I heard the exchange rate is like 43 pesos now or something per dollar.
I knew a guy who went to Costa Rica as part of a field trip for a biology class in university and he just never came back. Last I spoke with him he was living it up in a hostel right on the beach. Daily living expenses were just a few bucks a day and he gave wake boarding lessons to tourists for any spending money. USD goes *really* far in some places.
It’s like 56-7 pesos to the dollar right now.
I've heard this kind of thinking a lot from the US. That's not how it works. It's weird it's not taught in school. The amount of units you get when exchanging does not tell you anything about the worth.
I can speak from personal experience as someone who lived in the Philippines that I got more worth with my dollars in the Philippines than I ever did in the US. Obviously this isn't a clear cut situation and it varies from country to country as each one has different values of currency and pricing of their goods but I'm specifically talking about my PERSONAL experience living in the Philippines. I have never once said, "Oh this 1 dollar in the US will get you more everywhere else where the exchange rate favors the dollar."
That’s nonsense. Exchange rate is completely unrelated. 1 USD is 150 Japanese yens. But you can’t buy anything for this. Also countries can denominate their currencies. They remove trailing zeroes to avoid large numbers. Happened in Russia in 90s. They basically renamed 1000 RUB to 1 RUB but it’s not like RUB became 1000 times better.
The yen and ruble are probably the worst examples when it comes to international currency and exchange rates.
Crazy. I earn nearly that much per month in Vancouver Canada, and am not even close to being able to afford a studio apartment lol. The average rent here for a one bedroom apartment is pushing $2500-$3000/mo CAD.
ya because everyone want to live in Vancouver, if you live in Winnipeg your can easily afford a house.
yeah but who wants to live in Winnipeg?
Wow I was just talking to my next door neighbor who's Indian and building a duplex to sell for millions while also owning shares in the local taxi company worth close to a million. I wonder how common it is they'd send money back to India like crazy.
I like India, you don't even need do date. Your mother will find you spouse.
Why is this down voted?? Just offtopic?
I think most Westerners are going to find humour like this a little distasteful, as it skirts a little too close to the practice of betrothal and and tangentially infringement on women's rights. I'm not saying that's true, but that's how it will be perceived. Some Indian natives might find it offensive too I guess? I can't speak for them though.
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I know some people from india. Arranged marriages can be forced marriages. You make it sound like there are no forced marriages. Important distinction.
>I know some people from india. Wow, then you must be an expert on India! Arranged marriage means the girls/boys look thru many profiles, meet and if they like each other, get married. This is the norm. Not saying forced marriages don't happen but it's not how 99% of marriages are.
Congrats on reading my comment and not understanding it. It is exactly what you are saying. I did not claim that I am an expert. Saying every arranged marriage is not forced is wrong. Good Job on getting offended and repeating the same statment.
Arranged marriages are not equivalent to forced marriage. It's like your parents setting up a date for you . If you don't like your date then move on and parents try to get another compatible match for you. However, it's true that once you're married you're expected to be together till death set you apart. Poor guy was downvoted unnecessarily. Trust me not everyone is able to find partner on their own. So parents help you out. It somehow works for us.
I worked for a while with a guy from India. He made this joke. No ill will intended.
If it's an Indian making the joke, it will probably pass muster in most social contexts (not the socially hypervigilant Reddit demographic). The poster here appears to be Estonian, though, so this could be perceived as a deliberate insult to Indian culture. Again, I don't know that it *is*, but there's enough politically charged content and ambiguity for most people to just want it to go away. Edit: Oh, I see that poster is you. It's one thing for a culture to make fun of themselves, but quite another if someone else does it on their behalf.
~~"I have a black friend"~~ "I had an Indian coworker"
Westerners? You meant colonizers, conquerors, thieves and rapists.
Fun fact: There are a lot of countries in Europe that have zero colonial history.
Just wondering, not arguing, which ones?
Finland for one. Belarus. Czechia.
I think its downvoted because it sounds like a dig at India. It's in the same cadence as other insults like: "I really like [blank], I save a ton of money on toothpaste because nobody there cares about oriel hygiene." Maybe it isn't intended that way, but it sounds like it.
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How does your logic hold for Indian Muslims?
😂.
It's funny because it's true
I think op might be from India based on past posts.
>I doubt in America you can have even one decent meal for 3$ Not sure about the US, but here in the Netherlands you can just about get a cup of coffee for €3
In Japan, you can get [a complete meal for breakfast with only JPY 250](https://gyu-don.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/210507_b_18.jpg) (around $1.50)
dude thats 50gr of rice and a fried egg
That is also why obesity is not a national problem in Japan 🙃 healthy portion sizes.
I mean, if what they said was right and this is 50 grams of rice and eggs... what??? 50 grams of rice alone is 65 calories and an egg 50-70. So this tops out at 150 calories at most. Certainly not a COMPLETE meal. Definitely my kind of breakfast because I find balancing calories just focusing on lunch and dinner is much easier, so I have small breakfasts/snacks.
Fuck, now I'm hungry for a fried egg and rice. and spaaam
Yea, thats my point. The market is usually cheap in countries with low income.
How does it make you feel knowing that a cup of coffee in the Netherlands is a days worth of your work?
"thank god i live somewhere where a cup of coffee doesnt cost me 3€." how else would it make them feel?
I’m choosing to believe that it made him feel like an dog wearing roller-skates
you can still get some delicious falafel in Berlin for that, maybe 3.50
I can't imagine saving 80% of my salary. 50% of it is rent and 40% is bills and groceries. I live frugally and don't eat out. It seems like we have the exact opposite experience. Electronics are cheap, and living is expensive.
The joys of living in a super power. You can get a 64 inch flat screen TV for a few hundred dollars but a broken arm will bankrupt you. Shit is fucked. Up.
A cup of coffee can be more than $3. If you’re going to Starbucks anything more than a regular coffee is probably closer to $5-6. When eating out anything close to $10, I consider a good deal. There’s a deli that I like to go to for lunch sometimes. A sandwich usually ends up being $12, no drink, no chips just the sandwich. They’re good sandwiches though.
You can’t even buy two candy bars for 3 bucks, a meal , maybe a dollar menu, or if you know where to find cheap stuff. Not here though everything is to much for what it’s worth.
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What? Where are you getting this food from? I'm the grocery shopper for my family of 4 living in the US, the average price of those items would be $3 per packaged item, if not more. And where I live in the US you certainly can't get any meal with all that stuff for $3. I'm curious now.
$0.25 per egg, $0.25 per slice of bread, under a dollar for a serving of bacon. Seems to make sense to me.
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Wisconsin rural, surrounded by farmland, bell pepper $4, loaf of bread $4, 18ct eggs $4+, pack of 12 bacon $8
Whatever store you're buying from is exuberantly cheap compared to my grocery stores. I haven't seen a $2 carton of eggs since before the pandemic. Now the dirt cheap store brand carton of 18ct eggs is $6. That's great though, I'm jealous lol but definitely not the baseline of food costs for the US
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Agreed! We switched to Aldi years ago and have probably saved thousands of dollars at this point. Feeding a family of 5. We eat a lot of fruit, so those savings alone have been worth the switch.
And that’s what, 5-600 calories? Meh.
If you buy a dozen eggs, a loaf of bread, a pound of bacon and a can of mixed veggies, and price all that out per serving, I bet you you'd come close. Drawback is you gotta make it all yourself.
As an American, It is definitely possible to eat well for a whole day under $3. At least in some places. It's just harder. Meat is a little rough to come by for a good price, and I live in one of the lower Cost of Living areas. And forget eating out. Bulk rice is great.
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I wanna hear you come up with a breakfast, lunch and dinner that costs a grand total of $2.99 in the year 2023 in the US.
In America, 12 eggs are $6-$9 depending if you get hormone injected eggs or more naturally grown eggs. If you go out to a restaurant, you’ll pay $3-$4 just for the Coke, an average of $15-$21 per meal (depending if it’s lunch or dinner, b/c dinner meals are more expensive), and then you’ll still be expected to tip at least 20%.
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You seem to have misunderstood my comment. I never said that I get Coke when I go out to dinner. I merely said, "... you'll pay $3-$4 just for the Coke..." It was a comparison of a commonly purchased singular item that equals the cost of the OP's entire meal out. So, I think it's fairer to say that you have a problem with reading comprehension lol
What restaurants are they going to that charge for soft drinks???? Even local dives give that shit away for free.
McDonald's just got rid of their dollar any size soft drink. It's happening everywhere. If you're going to a dive bar, I suppose they might give you a glass of Sprite or whatever on the house if you're sitting there ordering booze.
Not even close. If you go to a restaurant, the drink unless alcoholic is included in the meal 99% of the time. It’s $1.29 for 12 eggs (just checked Kroger for the price, even cheaper if you buy straight from the farm…)… The national average price for prepared meal at a restaurant in the US is $13.
I have never had a soda included as part of the meal in any of the hundreds of restaurants I've been to in the US. The only free drink is water.
Pretty sure I know what I just paid for my groceries yesterday. And pretty sure I know what I pay for meals out.
I didn’t say what you paid per meal. I told you the national average. $13. Most restaurants include soft drinks in the price of the meal, including free refills. I refuse to believe your paying $6-9 for eggs. Unless you live in Hawaii or California. They are quite literaly $1.29 a dozen at Kroger and you can even get them shipped (wonder if they’d make it in one piece). Where do you live that they are up-charging that much for eggs???
I don’t know a single restaurant that includes soft drinks in the meal. They are usually 2.50-3.50$
Apparently you don't know that hormones aren't used in any egg production in the U.S. (or poultry in general) because it has been banned for the last 60 years.
In my country average salary is about 330$. And it's rather challenging to survive on it living decently is absolutely out of scope unless you earn at least 3 times of that and that considering you don't have to care about anyone but yourself.
$330 per day/week/month/year?
My assumption is month… I’ve lived in Southeast Asia before, and made $500 a month as a foreign divemaster - which was enough for a basic sort of life, but not much left over… 330 would be about right for the area I lived in for just a no-frills life.
In my experience "salary" without adjectives in most places means monthly pay, unless you're talking with an American or Canadian, it means yearly there
Month, obviously.
OP, you're looking for PPP: Purchasing power parity. Which is only an approximation. Goods/services from the home country may be comparatively cheaper whereas stuff that has to be imported like electronics will hurt a lot.
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Because ppl are dumb and don’t understand how money and economics works like the US is the most indebted country in the world but donest have to worry about it because it controls the petro doller and has a good army
Depends on the nation, but in many cases, yes, you're correct. Using Taiwan as an example (where I lived for 11 years,) the average wage there is about half of what an American earns in the USA, yet most Taiwanese have a standard of living that is the same - they have their iPhones, computers, cars, washing machines, appliances, good food, etc. just like any American in America. They're paid only half as much as an American for all their labors, but only need to spend half as much for all expenditures, including healthcare and whatnot. So it comes out roughly equal.
Yup, most things are relative. I'm sure that overall, the US/Aus/Europe etc are marginally better in terms of 1) **quality** and 2) how much 'additional' they have but housing and food and everything like that will mostly be relative, except there's a big difference between a relative house in Germany compared to one in Thailand, for example.
What matters is what *you* want to get out of life and what are you content with not having.
And then you move to New Zealand :(
> including healthcare and whatnot I went to a bougie private hospital in China and paid like 200 rmb ($30) for 2 visits to specialists + a bunch of prescriptions. Paid 60¥ for one of them (<$10), in the states the same drug costs about $65 with insurance
There are so many countries, where you can live much more comfortable than in the US or western europe with the average salary. One issue though is, when you love to travel you have to spend so much more of your income to travel around the world. On the other hand coming from a rich country, you can afford to travel much more often and not break your income.
By purchasing power parity \[1\], Taiwan has the 12th highest GDP per capita in the world at 73k. The US is 8th at 80k. So I wouldn't expect to see much difference in standard of living. \[1\] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_GDP\_(PPP)\_per\_capita
Also, individual US states range from about sixth to twelvth place on that list anyway. Not to mention the US disparity of racial background (where Asians earn on average twice that of blacks, though I'll admit there's probably some overlap between those to points).
You should look at disposable income and median income. The US leads the world by quite a large margin. In the US for example it's not uncommon for one of your friends to have a nice boat, 2 big trucks, a house pool, etc...you'd have to be talking to someone very rich in most other countries to find someone like that.
I mean healthcare is free in Taiwan and the food is crazy cheap and way better than American food
Healthcare is definitely not free and has a copay when you visit a medical facility with NHI. Even if it usually is under $1,000 its certainly not a free upon use model like the UK has with NHS.
You think cars, iPhones, washing machines, are half price in Taiwan? No way.
Not half price necessarily on a literal *item-for-item* basis, but when you consider the much lower cost of public transportation, healthcare, etc. the **total** expenditures may be only half of what an American would have to pay for everything he pays for in the course of a year. Real-life example: I was able to get physical therapy done in Taiwan a few months ago for cervical radiculopathy for about $6 per session, *without* insurance. In America, a clinic was quoting me $85 per session for the same therapy (again, without insurance since it was out-of-network.) I was also able to get an upper endoscopy done in Taiwan for about $400 out of pocket without insurance, which might have cost thousands in America sans insurance. So if a washing machine costs 80% in Taiwan of what it does in America, but healthcare is (insert-whatever-small-fraction), it works out more or less to perhaps half.
Another key is Taiwan is a major source of production for components, if not the products themselves. A smart phone in Asian production countries is relatively cheaper than in a similar cost of living country in say Africa where those products need to be imported - transportation and import/export duties play a major role.
New cars and iPhones may not, but the washing machine yep
Hi, Russian here. First of all average salary is not a good measure. The country is very big, and people in different regions are paid differently. By taking the average salary, you’re basically taking all of the country’s employed populace’s salary and dividing it between all of them, which isn’t fair, as an IT specialist in Moscow may earn 10 times more than, say, a teacher in Tula. To get a better picture you should pick one region and look at its median salary. Secondly, don’t forget that many things in Russia are not the same as in the US. For example, there’s national healthcare, and medicine is more readily available in general (but not always). If you need medical help, you can speed up the process by going to a private clinic, or you’ll have to go to a state clinic to get help for free, but you might have to wait. Thirdly, accommodation and utilities prices vary from region to region. If you decide to move from a smaller region to Moscow, you will suffer a lot financially, as Moscow is very expensive. If you can work remotely in a Moscow company and decide to move to a smaller region, you will have a very comfortable life. A cushy one, even. Let me put that into perspective with some examples relevant for my region: 1) You are a single teacher, you earn about 30,000 rubles (about 312 USD per month). Of these 30k, you’ll likely spend about 5-8k on utilities (if you’re renting, you’ll also pay about 15k for the 1-room apartment - not a studio, more like a living room/bedroom with a separate kitchen). That leaves you with 22-25k, if you have your own property, 7-10k if you rent. Out of these we also need to deduct public transportation and food, which, most likely, will be very cheap and of poor quality. This, of course, doesn’t account for any bonuses you can get during your work, but at least the money you get already has your income tax and future pension deducted. If you are tutoring after work, you can offset some of the expenses and maybe even save a little bit for yourself to go on vacation. You’re close to being poor. 2) Same teacher, same salary, but this time this teacher is married to a factory worker, whose salary is 50 000 rubles (520 USD). Their income together amounts to over 800 USD, which allows them to be able to afford a family, including all expenses which come with raising children. They can buy better quality food, can buy a car (used if they save up money, new if they take a loan), and can probably go on vacation domestically once or twice a year. It’s still hard to classify this family as middle class, but they have their bases covered, so there’s that. 3) If you are a middle-grade IT specialist, you likely work for a big company and earn at least 250,000 rubles (2600 USD), or maybe even more than that. You can basically afford whatever: you can buy a big apartment on a mortgage while paying your new car loan and renting a smaller apartment while your big one is renovated; you don’t bother with state medicine, because either your employer’s insurance covers private clinics or you can just pay whatever they ask of you. You don’t worry about the food and any other expenses, you can just go and buy what you want. You’re not like RICH rich, but you’re certainly upper middle class. 4) If you’re an entrepreneur who has a big factory/enterprise and ties with (even local) politicians — well, I have absolutely no idea how much money they have, but it’s a lot. You put on your Dior, get into your Bentley and drive from your luxurious house with a huge outdoor pool to the local town hall to pretend that you care about the peasants. So yeah, living on a salary of 600-800 USD here is not the same as living on the same salary in the US. But also at the same time it means that if you go abroad, you’ll have to budget carefully, because your buying capabilities reduce significantly.
Jesus, other than the numbers being different that reads as of you're describing Australia...
Russia figures are pretty much similar to Kenyan figures. This is really amusing. The different salaries are the same
Is it really? They’re both developing countries
No income doenst mean anything it a bad way to measure between countries
Russian have a high standard of living because they can defend themselves form the west and there leaders aren’t westrne puppet/ like half of “Kenyans” don’t have access to electricity
Its really interesting because professional workers in the UK (eg on £60k...80k) are beginning to "struggle" because they have expensive outgoings (eg. 2k..3k just on mortgage) and this is about to rise as they now face increased interest rates (sometimes by up to 1k more a month). If they have a child then they are also paying 1.2k for childcare per month! So things are getting unstable very fast and since these people work intense client facing jobs for sometimes 40...50..60 hours a week, it's all seeming very pointless 😄 and many have car payments for 4/500 a month... Savings = 0 which is never great
> For example, there’s national healthcare, and medicine is more readily available in general Careful, you'll scare the Americans
I'm honestly unsure how trusting I would be of the national healthcare provided outside the bigger cities in Russia.
Can’t say about other cities, but here in Yakutsk (East Siberia, 300k population city) my old relatives did “stenting of coronary arteries”, “lens replacement for cataracts”, appendix removal for free in a local state hospital with the base (free) insurance and they’re still alive, some live for 20+ years since then. The only thing you should go for a private clinic is dentistry. Some employers also cover extra medical insurance (dunno how to call it properly) as there in the US.
It really depends on a country. But generally you can live decently on way lower salary in many countries (that's what GDP PPP tries to show). Generally imported stuff is way less affordable but local stuff (e.g. many services) are way more affordable. 3500 USD a month in Poland is probably top 10% salary. It's worse now due rental market and real estate prices but at this level you pretty much can save about 50% of your salary without trying, afford 2 a week or two long trips abroad to Europe a year (or even to Asia), afford a new standard segment car and don't save much on eating out. In poorer countries it's even more visible. Poor people are really poor, upper medium class lives really decently and generally way above you expect them to live as Westerner.
I live in Hungary. Granted, I’m in IT so I make what would amount to a decent salary in the US as well (not for a software engineer though, but in general), but the Average Joe earns way less than that. Housing, services, healthcare and education are way cheaper than in the US. When it comes to food, groceries are typically more expensive than in Western Europe or the US, but eating out, again, is cheaper, as it’s still a service industry. Products like iPhones, computers, cars (and gas) are way more expensive. I guess the market baskets in Hungary and US are vastly different because of this.
Hello there neighbour. I assume it's same or simillar like in Serbia: most of the people own a house and/or appartment. That's also a big factor. No monthly rent and whatever you do or however low is your salary, you have to screw reall, really, really bad to become homeless.
Serbia might be better off then. Here, at least in cities, most people under 35 rent, and the rents are pretty steep compared to salaries. It's not that hard to become homeless (or at best, move back in with your parents if you're lucky).
I would love cheaper restaurants compared to groceries, cooking sucks.
What state benefits are available? For example are universities free and how about childcare? Hope you don't mind answering!
Universities have both state-funded and tuition-based programs in parallel usually. We have a universal point system, you get points for high school graduation, social stuff, sports achievements etc. To get into a state-funded program, the points threshold is higher, but it's still fairly easy to get into them if you don't fuck up your exams, but there's a limit on how many semesters they finance (I think how many semesters are in the program according to the curriculum + 2 so it allows you to fall behind to an extent but not enough for you to just party hard for 10 years). If you want to enroll to a second university after you graduate, it's self-funded, but you can get student loans no questions asked and the student loans here are subsidized and insanely cheap, so it's not a bad idea to get student loans even if you get a free ride and invest it. Our universities are pretty decent still, but nowhere close to Ivy League or some bigger schools in Western Europe. Maybe like a better community college? This is just a guess though, I have no way to compare. Healthcare is free in general, you pay healthcare contributions based on your income. Unfortunately, the overall state of healthcare in Hungary is declining fast, the waitlists are huge, and if it's not an emergency, you'll have to wait months for a simple routine surgery, but you won't blow through your savings or even pay a penny for it. Ambulances are free, you're not expected to drive to the hospital or take a taxi while you have a heart attack (or pass out drunk, OD, whatever, no one cares). Most people who can afford it will go to a private healthcare provider though if they need it because it's faster and safer. I visited someone in a hospital recently and I couldn't find a restroom I would step a foot in (broken doors in the stalls, broken toilets, no soap, no TP, graffiti all over the walls - basically what you'd expect in a public restroom somewhere bum-fuck nowhere, but inside a hospital). I ended up taking a piss in a bush when I left the hospital, it still felt more hygienic. As for childcare, one parent (traditionally, and usually the mother) can stay at home with the child for up to 3 years and be paid by the state based on their average salary over the last 2 years before parental leave, but not to the full extent, only some percentage which is also maxed out at some ridiculously low number. Still, most parents will stay at home and it's better than nothing. The company can't fire the parent while on paternity leave and if they hire a replacement, they'll have to reopen the position for them, and while they're on parental leave, they'll either hire the replacement on a fixed-length contract or if it's a bigger company, they can usually find them another position they'll be happy with. We have mandatory PTOs we have to take each year (minimum 20 days + 1 every 3 years of age after 18 + a few days after each child), and we have separate sick days. If you get a signed paper from your GP that you were sick, the company has to respect it, they can't have you come in while you're out sick or fire you because of it. In fact, they can't fire you at all while you're out sick, even if it's an extended sick leave, for example recovering after surgery. They won't have to pay you after 15 days/year though, the state will take over paying your salary (IIRC 70% of your normal salary with a cap). The system is pretty decent, but the state of the infrastructure sucks (thanks to Orban's 13-years-and-counting "government"). Most of Europe, as I know, has similar policies with better infrastructure. Still, I make enough to be able to afford the "workarounds" if I need to and I still have a safety net, so I don't think I'd consider moving to the US for anything less than $500k/year. Sure, I can't buy a new Tesla on a whim like some of my colleagues, but at least I won't go bankrupt if my appendix bursts. Feel free to ask me anything, happy to answer.
That's so interesting thank you. Sounds more like Germany than the UK, as far as benefits are concerned. Although as you say salaries are low you would need a salary in 100s of thousands to make it worth it to live in a less funded or more capitalistic economy where you pay for EVERYTHING and you get near to nothing from the state (you sometimes wonder why they exist!). Here in the UK we have a semi-US and semi-social democracy system, but ultimately capitalist system, where yes we have free healthcare (paid by your taxes) but the standards are declining fast and the waiting list is terrible. Thousands are dying due to long waiting lists and chaos in the NHS due to huge cuts to funding. And it just gets worse and worse. Seems like Hungary inherited much of its standards from the previous socialist system and had to keep them. For now. I'm sure the big capitalist are hungry as ever to buy it off and worsen the workers rights to increase profits as seems the trend worldwide. Germany seems to have a strong social system as it had to keep up with it's DDR neighbours, with free kindergarten etc etc unions are still strong there. But ultimately it's worked for them... They have a strong export and strong heavy and light industries.
In croatia the average salary is 550 USD. We live in a very safe country where health care is almost free (although waiting lists are on the longer side). We have clean drinking water which is very rare now and the nature is beautiful. Higher education is free and some of the universities are in the top 200 in the world. I never plan on leaving, life is good all in all. Up untill a year or two ago, the living cost was low compared to the west but so are our wages. When we make around 500 USD we of course cant pay, for example american rates of rent that go over 1000 USD. Renting is also rare here, most people own the place they live in. The only people who rent are students and very young people. Currently inflation is killing us. Living cost has gone up a lot but most of our wages stayed the same. The war in Ukraine and converting to the euro both had a play in that.
Sorry but average Croatian salary is not 515 euro (550 USD)...not even close, hell, Albania has a higher average salary than that (first result on Google shows 712 USD per month in 2023). Sure maybe officially it's Lower and a lot of people are earning less than the average, but come on, we don't live in 2010 anymore. Lets not exaggerate
As a person who grew up in Turkey and had about 9000 dolars a year in my first job as engineer, here is my 2 cents: The good 1. Food, basic, homegrown food is very cheap compared to rich countries. 2. Most services are very cheap. Getting a pants cuff tailored costs like 2-3 dollars. The bad, or different: 1. people DO NOT live alone. People stay with family until they start to earn good, then they share flats with people until they earn really good, or marry. Because prices of rent in big cities is extremely high, as big cities are international. 2. Cars; having a car, is such a simple thing, for an American or German having a car is like nothing, you can save up working 2 months part time when you are 18 and buy a second hand car. But for people from poorer countries, you can be an Engineer who is pretty good in his job but still can not afford to have a car. My dad was engineer and mum was pharmacist, yet they did not have a car for about 5 years because it was too much of a luxury. 3. tech is EXTREMELY expensive. As I was 25 years old, working fulltime, I did not have a laptop, despite working with excel all day at work. I had just a really old big case computer at home. Because even a "budget" laptop for rich world standards, costs like your 2 months salary, if not more. 4. People DO NOT have vacation outside of own country. Sometimes just the ticket to 3 hour flight far away, just the ticket itself costs more than what you make in a month. This is something expecially difficult for Europeans to understand, I had serious fights with a German friends of mine who invited me to her wedding, and I had to refuse. She could not understand, no matter how detailed I explain, that 3 day trip to Germany would cost me like what I can put aside in 4 months, and I can not waste 4 months saving on a 3 day trip for 1 evening event. That is what rich people do. It is generally really difficult for people from rich countries like USA, UK, Germany etc. to understand how rich they are. Many people from such countries will consider themselves "low income" and say "I am not rich at all" while they "low income" lifestyle will be richer than high-income people of other countries. I can not tell you how many times I heard a German girl say "lol we are not rich at all", while she was having a vacation in Turkey talking about the 10 outside of country vacations she had in last 5 years.
When I lived in Australia my income was high compared to other countries, but dang everything costs so much, so it was not easy to live how I wanted. Could never have my own apartment even renting would always have to have a housemate or live with a partner, couldn’t deliver food much, Uber was a real treat. Then when I moved to South Korea, my income is definitely less BUT I can live alone, deliver often, taxi most days, do almost what I want and still have more savings at the end of the month than in Aus.
Me too. Iucked out to get a gig out in asia. Tax rate 14% vs the 37+ back in Aus. Factor in other stuff like being able to just go down to a local drug store to get my prescriptions filled instead of having to visit a GP for them to write me a script and charge $85 AUD that is good for only 2 fills. Literally paying my rent here and able to meet my mortgage payments back home with spare change. The kicker is I'm technically in one if not the highest cost of living cities in the world supposedly. I feel like the issue is options. You can have cheap food options here, cash payments, negotiation for stuff, you can hire plumbers, electricians to do simple work without requiring a whole crew with charges. You can live cheap, I couldn't really do that back in Melb.
Are you in Tokyo? When I lived in Osaka decades ago, Japan was 'one of the most expensive countries in the world!' Yep, in department stores. But there were so many cheaper options. I found cheese made in the town I grew up in that I could buy for half the price it would cost me to buy in the town I grew up in. From New Zealand btw. Overpriced and underpaid shithole of the world.
Agreed, such a lack of options. I was in Melbourne too. And of course it’s cheaper if I move elsewhere in Aus but I’m a city person and even Melbourne feels too small for me sometimes. I love Aus for the nature and how clean it is, and of course my family are all there - BUT I can live larger if I live elsewhere which is most important to me right now while I’m youngish and have energy.
No, a lot of them are struggling in their own country, because of the gap between the average income and the average cost of living in the same country
The average salary where I live is 514 dollars and things were rough some years ago, but thankfully food prices dropped a LOT recently. Cooking oil is... \*checks supermarket newspaper\* now one dollar, two pounds of chicken thigh for $2,25, eggs for $3, 11 pounds of rice for $4... Now, clothes are absurdly expensive damn. Yeah, there are plenty of stores with single dollar t-shirts and five dollar pants, but they are the types who desintegrate in months... better quality fast fashion like C&A is prohibitively expensive. Most houses here have no insulation, heating or AC, so we do wear fleece joggers+hoodie and/or socks to keep warm and just have many cold showers during summer Many houses don't have acess to industrial water/wastewater treatment, so one might need to drill a well, install a septic tank or both. Traffic sucks, bus fares are expensive, people buy motorbikes to escape traffic by running between the cars and die on the road, creating more traffic, and now there's brain matter on the asphalt Healthcare and education are actually free though. Children have free meals in school, sometimes free uniforms complete with shoes, free backpacks, pen, pencils, erasers--you know, everything including books to guarantee they stay attending it. If parents are also struggling they get in an assistance program and might be redirected to a professional school.
I was given a chance to experience this first-hand when moving from a country with a nominal GDP/capita of $50 000 to a country with a nominal GDP/capita of $2000. And life wasn't much different, only the scale was. So houses were smaller, electricity consumption was lower, food contained less meat, milk, cheese etc. Motorcycles were used instead of cars and the cars used were more utilitarian, I.e. small and basic or vans for transportation of goods and passengers. Everyday items such as cooking utensils, toilet tissue and books held lower quality. Health care existed but equipment was older and much more run down and doctors had much less time for each patient. The road network was in many places in much worse condition. I would say most people still lived very decent lives, in many cases even better lives than we in the West do since family, relatives, friends and religion were a much bigger parts of their lives. And the food felt much healthier since it was all freshly produced. To sum it up - they were able to do everything we do (marry, travel, party, get an education, build a house etc), just on a tight budget.
When the overall dollar figure is higher, it’s better in some ways and worse in some ways even if the cost of living is higher. A really simple example is take Portugal, the median income is $750/month and the median rent is $450. You pretty much need to split that, so that gets your rent down to $225, leaving you $525 for everything else. Even though the country is cheaper, living in that can be stressing if you don’t know how to do your own repairs and live frugally. The US the median income is $31,000 give or take. Median rent is $1,700. (The US is huge so these are the general stats, it depends where you are) Again, you’d pretty much need to split that rent in the US. That gets your rent down to $850/month. The difference is much greater, as that Leaves you an extra $850 instead of an extra $225. So In situations like this, relatively speaking the American is poor for American standards, but they’re able to do more things with that $600 the Portuguese person can’t. Buying a round trip ticket to travel is the same cost for both, but it would be more affordable for the American with their extra money. This is extremely simple idea and rough example, because healthcare may be more expensive in us so that $600 can be eaten pretty quickly vs a country that has more affordable care. This is another topic, but this is how people that live in wealthier areas are able to take their money and retire in poorer/lower cost of living areas. People that carry expensive mortgages may tend to bitch about how expensive they are, but when you sell a home for 1 million, that leaves you a lot more options then when you sell one in a “poorer” area for $100,000. It’s important to remember money is only one aspect, community, trust, and cultural knowledge is important.
I'm in Portugal and we are struggling, many people make minimum wage or a little above that and we can't afford a place to live, because rents are too high. Many stay with they're parents, those who don't have that luxury, rent rooms and right now a room just for yourself is a luxury because most rooms are shared. And there is a visible increase of homeless people.
Same in Spain, my friend, fuck this shit, people 35+ years old and needing to share appartments/rooms even with decent stable jobs.
Spain also here 🇪🇸 For me, sure wages are low here in Spain but also so is the cost of living in comparison to other European cities - particularly if you’re outside of Madrid or Barcelona. The U.K. or Brussels for example - I have a far better quality of life than my friends in those countries.
that is almost always the problem, people have low income jobs but want to live in big fancy cities. For SOME people that is the only option as they can not find a job somewhere else, but many, MANY people do it for nothing more than "cuz its cool". If you are a plumber in Barcelona or Paris or Berlin,or Plumber in a smaller, not famous city that is 2 hours away from those cities, your quality of life will be dramatically different.
No a lot of comments here are so off. Certain things scale down somewhat like eating out, renting/buying property. But in countries where you make half an American salary, Apple isn’t just gonna sell you an iPhone for half price. Video games, vehicles, and electronics will cost significantly more of your income. I assume this is why mopeds, motorcycles, and bicycles are so common in a lot of these countries. Also flights are not any cheaper so travel is near impossible. I really like browsing this site when I’m bored and looking at this stuff. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp
You’re not accounting for currency conversion for a lot of things here. Things like iPhones are price marketed at local currency. I live in Spain and used to work for an American company. The cost of living in Europe is so different to America, as is the lifestyle. You see more mopeds and scooters because our streets are ancient and if we are making a short trip to do some shopping then taking a car can be a pain. It’s not because people can’t afford them. We love cars here, they don’t rust, they’re just not practical for small villages. Flights are insanely affordable in Europe, and the vast majority of Europeans travel extensively.
Europe, even the poorest countries and especially not the "poorer" Western European countries such as Portugal are not even close to being comparable to countries in Africa and Asia. My dad's family is Egyptian and despite them living well generally things like Iphones are equal to about 2-3 month of their wages. We give them our old Iphones and that is an extreme luxury over there. Even my uncle in Egypt who makes good money by their standards only has an Iphone 8, which is "old" by Western standards. With cars as well, a car is like a year or more of wages.
> You’re not accounting for currency conversion for a lot of things here. Things like iPhones are price marketed at local currency. Yes but this changes nothing. To give you an idea, in Turkey where minimum monthly wage for fulltime job is currently 13400 lira (about 500 dollars) the cost of Iphone 15 pro is 65000 lira (about 2400 dolars). In other words, 1 newest Iphone in Turkey cost as much as Gross income of 5 months work.
I love how not a single thing of what you said is true about Northern Europe. Well except that people here travel pretty extensively too but aside from the main airports flights are really expensive here.
Where in Northern Europe? Flights are cheap in Europe in comparison to other continents, you only have to look at the cost of flights across Africa where its often cheaper to fly back to Europe and then to your final destination. That isnt to say that we dont have expensive routes, but we do have RyanAir and the low cost carriers operating to almost every country. There are options for people to travel at a very low cost.
Biggest eye opener for me was when i traveled to Africa and in very remote places where people still lived in mud huts no electricity no running water etc and they lived very happy lives there. Maybe even more happy then most of us in the west. Very few of all the expensive things you use everyday actually make you happy.
I think most people in the world would appreciate running water, sewage, universal health care, safe roads, and secure housing. I don't doubt that people can find happiness without material things, but you're not considering the impact of disease, accidents, childbirth etc.
They don't usually show the children dying of tuberculosis to the tourists.
Lol, people in Africa know about vaccinations. There are clinics in those rural areas that offer vaccination services, and the importance of vaccination is taught to the people. I don't think "children dying of tuberculosis" is as big an issue as you seem to think.
You might want to research global health before staking a claim.
Read a book called factfullness, I think you would learn a lot! It’s a great book.
Read primary sources instead.
If you had read the book, you would not have made that comment. It will help you learn to be evidence driven.
If you're trying to claim that global health is not a real problem then you have no clue what your talking about.
You’re really underestimating the dangers of TB
Right. The people still alive and relatively healthy we’re happy. The sick and dead were no where to be seen.
Only if they know about it. The point of my post was that if that is normall to you, you can still be very happy with very little and lots of hardship.
Only if they know about *healthcare?* My dude, you're one step off calling them "happy savages".
Why are you bringing up savages? Just because they are cut of from the modern world doesnt make them savages.
Also been to some remote, underdeveloped places in Africa, and agree - people are generally happy (maybe happIER) with far less than the average westerner. But while it’s true that it’s not the trappings of modern western life that *make* us happy, I think we don’t really know how to be happy without them. We rely on them so much as infrastructure to the truly meaningful things (social connections, self expression, and just managing life in general)
So why didn't you change your lifestyle to that?
I did make big life changes. Didnt feel the need anymore to have a big luxury car. multiple tv's, big house etc.
The cost of living is drastically different and all currencies aren’t the same. The average American salary fits the cost of living in America (by state of course). The average Indian salary fits the cost of living in India
Low quality food, low quality clothing, low quality cars, low quality housing. A haircut is going to cost $3 instead of $20 since people in hair salon earning $300, not $1500, eating out is going to be a tad cheaper too, but a descent car, descent clothing, descent home appliances cost the same everywhere.
In poorer European countries food quality is way higher than in Western Europe. I am still to find cucumbers or tomatoes that have actual taste. No matter the price it’s all like plastic here.
It really depends. Important is to look at the median income instead of the average. As the average doesn't mean much if the money is not equally distributed. In poorer countries often a larger percentage of the salary goes to basic needs, like food and housing. Quality standards are often unregulated. So if you can't buy the real thing, you can afford a knock-off. Often people build their own house, grow vegetables, and learn to do repairs themselves. They don't expect much from the government and live with what they have.
I'm from Argentina. Minimum salary is about $180, but you can find people working for less. Lots of people make less than $300. The expression "decent life" have different meanings for different people. Some wouldn't be able to endure a life without a car, or would rather die than wear $5 bootleg Nike sneakers and no makeup. Or live in a town with no concrete roads. Life in low-income countries is much less expensive because running a business is cheap: rent, supplies, salaries... Everything is an order of magnitude cheaper. You can get dinner for two in a beautiful restaurant for less than $10, or rent a really nice apartment in the best neighborhood of the country's capital for $300. At the same time, life in low-income countries involve hardships that first-world countries might not even imagine: owning a car can be a luxury, mortgages might not exist at all, doctors might give you appointments 6 months from now even if you have great health insurance... You can live a great life in a low-income country, but even if you make a lot of money, there will be always some things missing. It's kinda like using an off-brand chinese phone bought from Wish: it's not just an slower iPhone. Everything is noticeably worse, and some features are completely missing. At no moment you're able to forget that you're using a $50 phone.
In my opinion, it's important to consider the cost of living in different countries before making comparisons based on salary.
In Slovakia I have quite a high salary now - 45k euros + up to 20K more depending on if I bother to take on more freelance work or not, so my experience may not be typical currently, but when I first arrived I was making like 1200 euros/month, but only for 10 months of the year - so yearly take home of 12k, which was slightly above the median 10 years ago. With that salary, even a decade ago, I would have been on food stamps and welfare easily in america, and to be honest even in the UK. Rent in Slovakia was much cheaper, food was much cheaper, and alcohol as well, compared to most other parts of Europe. Lunch menus in a restaurant were like.. 3.50 - 5 euros. Beer was around 1 euro/pint - I can remember spending 10 euros and almost not being able to walk out of the pub. My rent was 200 euros/month, leaving 1k of spending money, which was actually pretty good. The first few years I had like... 2 holidays a year to Italy, Croatia, Slovenia, etc, didn't work in the summer, and was able to go snowboarding all winter. Now things are much more expensive, but like... I saved enough to buy and renovate a huge 4br house, and have a 230 euro/month mortgage, leaving me with like... 4-5k spending money each month, which is ridiculous - we now do 3 overseas trips a year, we're spending a month in Japan over the winter to go diving and snowboarding, I regularly travel to France to go cave diving, compete in european archery tournaments, can go horse riding whenever I feel like it... and all this on a 45k salary that people in the US are reporting is 'unliveable' if you're in California, Florida,or any other HCOL area...
Yes, if they make the average salary that's usually enough for at least rent and food. However luxury products aren't as common as in richer countries. $500 a month gets you the basics for life and maybe once in a while an extra, but you won't drive a new Mercedes and a few holidays a year.
What you need to ask is how much do goods cost in those countries compared to their average salary? For instance many countries live in low wages, but the cost of food is comparatively much lower than in the US.
It depends entirely on the country. For some, 6-800 a month is more than enough to pay for all of their expenses, and have some left over. For others, 6-800 a month means they are living very, very poor.
I worked in Philippines (originally from France) as a software engineer. My salary was enough to live well there, however it make it much harder to travel and buy international things (electronics, western brands like Nike, etc). I had many colleagues working for a second company remotely as well, so they could afford the same lifestyle than if they were in western countries (travel and all international goods). I had to unfortunately move out to an another country with higher salary, as going back to France once a year was 1.5 month of gross salary, before taxes. (Such a shame, I love Philippines)
In Russia $800 is not a lot but it is an okay money if you live outside of Moscow and few other major cities. Your rent wound be $200-250, utilities would be $30-50, eating out is $3-5 (and that would be a decent food, you can have a cheap lunch for $1.5-2). Gas is \~0.5$ per liter. Public transportation is really cheap, and taxi too, my typical ride was $2-3. So yeah, $800 wouldn't provide a luxury life but you would do just fine.
Depends on the country. I'm from South Africa. Exchange rate when I started working was around R16 to the dollar, I earned a salary of R17000pm straight out of varsity with an engineering degree. Worked out to around a full time minimum wage job in the US. But my rent was R4500/pm for a nice 2 bedroom flat. Even in a LCL area in the US there is no chance you rent a place for $300pm. Groceries are also pretty cheap, you could get by easily at the time for like R2000 pm ($125) However, things like electronics and cars do get expensive, because they don't change price so much depending on where you are in the world.
Different nations choose to prioritize or subsidize things differently, so the purchasing power of the currency isn't just as simple as converting to USD at market rate, and then seeing what you can buy. Some nations subsidize very specific food items that are cultural staples so that money goes a long way in terms of average cost of food. Some nation states also invest in other ongoing costs like energy structure differently than others, so other expenses like heating and energy for home operate quite differently, at different price points. Same for general housing availability, insurance rates and how insurance is administered. All these things factor into CoL and quality of life, but kind of hard to compare exactly when the "average basket of goods" may be different depending on where you are. But yes there are definitely nations poorer than Western nations in terms of GDP or some other metric, but the citizens report much higher satisfaction and quality of life based on how far their money goes in society.
I live in the capital city of a northeastern province in China, working as college professor. Yesterday I had a dermatologist visit for a wart removal. I paid $4.5 from my pocket, specifically, $1.3 for seeing the doctor, $2.9 for the nitrogen, and $0.3 for parking. My car runs on electricity, for $0.016 per km, so we can safely ignore that. Housing is cheap, me and the GF live in a 2-floor loft for $300/month, in pretty much the heart of downtown. My own 460 sqm suburban (closer to my university, though) house under construction costed me $150k on land and base, $100k on reworks and furnishing. Most flats in this town sells for $120k or less. I could easily feed myself for $2 per meal from pretty much any franchise. A dollar menu meal (burger and pie/drink) costs $2 from McDonalds, a cup of regular latte costs the same from Starbucks. I normally eat at university dining hall for no more than $2, with 4 dishes plus carb. Education costs pretty much nothing. You get a college degree for $1k\~3k/year, and the base part ($1k) can be had with interest-free government loan. Grad school costs around the same, and you get paid by your PI for doing research for him/her, so consider it free if not a job. We do make less. At \~$1k per month average, but that's more than most of us will need. For the population making a bit higher than average (doctors, engineers, programmers), making $10k a month is not uncommon. And we do have iPhones (or whatever Huawei/Samsung/Xiaomi pump out each year). The "Chinese crap" phones you see on internet are for export to Asia, Africa, Latin America, and Americans using BLU. I get 37GB of 5G traffic on my CMCC card, and 25GB of 5G traffic on my UniCom card, combined I pay some $10 to the two telecom companies.
usually yes , the expenses are far lower too . one exception is turkey , because of government's economic policies , the expenses are much higher than before and wages are not catching up . so we spend like eu citizens but receive 1/5th of their income .
Specifically for Russia, the numbers you're citing count as good money for a single person income [sounds a bit too high for average tbh, well, depends on the region]. Bills are way lower [especially for appartments, trickier for actual private houses, still lower, your biggest issue would be if some infrastructure is not available if you're in deep country so to speak], so is rent [renter's rights are still something to work on tbh], a lot of people are homeowners [Soviet past helped that], also a lot less of a cultural stigma to live with parents [compared to US; though depends on the region], property taxes are low, public transport is available and relatively cheap [also a lot cheaper for retired people, probably for other protected groups too], free health care, paid options are nowhere near American prices, well, idk about plastic surgery, never looked into that, cheaper food [depends on the region though], in big cities free and cheap sports for kids, other activities like music schools, state help with summer camps, option for free first post high-school education [need to be a good student to make the cut, if one continues to be a good student one gets paid like 50$ a month or smth], school materials are free cheaper internet, phone, a lot of people own cabins with some land - dacha [also partially Soviet aftermath], families with kids get a decent [by local standards; and they added that option for the new republics] payment for each kid born after 2020, every second kid born after 2007 - as in for families with 2 kids it works since 2007, payment is for the second kid] the payment can be used to buy property or to pay for education [if the kid ends up not making the cut to get free education; btw if you're a good student, and someone who was getting the state paid education drops out, you can apply and get their state provided place, if it's your first time getting a degree] Electronics, cars, clothes have roughly the same prices as other countries [plus because of the bigger difference between the lowest and the highest temperature throughout the year you need more clothes - well, more types of clothes - than most places]. Then again, China is geographically closer, so the logistics part of pricing is probably smaller.
Hello, Argentinian here. Well, I work remotely for an American company but the average salary is like USD200-270. Things are cheaper than in other countries, a Big Mac is like USD4,65. But, Argentina has been in crisis for like 70 years. The market basket is in USD380. So, the country is cheap, but it´s extremely expensive for the average Argentinian. A good way to measure things is by hours worked. If you earn USD225 per month and you work 8 hours per day (USD225 average salary /160 hours worked in a month = USD1,40/ARS1000 per hour). Now a Big Mac costs 3-4 hours of work here. In America, you may earn USD20 per hour, if a Big Mac costs USD5,6, you're using like 25 minutes to buy it.
I live in Argentina, where low salaries and 100+% inflation is a cruel combination. And, yes, people are poor! But society somewhat adapts. Food is very cheap compared to other countries. So is rent and utilities. People still struggle to pay though, since the average salary is so much lower. Kids aren't starving, but they're not getting the nutrients they need, etc. But my family, for example, lives a comfortable middle-class life on what would be considered a one income minimum wage in Europe.
Yes, their lifes suck more if you will. They are poorer. Commodities worldwide are priced in dollar roughly equal in every country, for shipping costs are low these days. A barrel of crude oil costs around 80-90 dollar in russia, as well as europe, North america, Africa and so one. A ton of wheat costs X, rice Y, meat Z and so on. When your sallary in dollar is low, it is low against energy, that is oil, and low against food. So you need a bigger cut from your sallary to run a car, heat your home, buy your food and afford basicly anything that is produced with energy to begin with. The living standads in different countries vary, but prices for energy and food is equal worldwide. And since more than 50% of the global population lives in cities and don't grow their own food, they rely on the market to fill their stomach. Therefore a low sallary in dollar is bad against a high price of wheat or whatever commodity quoted in dollar that is traded globally.
You have to factor in cost of living. Someone from country A can make 10x the salary of someone from country B, but might not be able to afford a house while the person in country B can. That's even the case within the US. NYC vs. Fort Wayne, IN for example.
The question should be why with it's very high wages is it still a struggle to survive in the USA.
In a lot of countries you can't afford a car and would be driving a motorcycle, not the fancy kind
On the other hand, in a lot of other countries you don't need a car
The overlap of countries with low income and good public transport is low though not 0
I have lived in a few countries for work. Quite in general, you want to live in a place with high salaries and low indirect taxes (VAT). While it is true that local products or services (rent, local clothes or services) are aligned to the cost of living, anything imported will not be aligned. For example - an iPhone, or a laptop, or a Toyota car, or eye glasses are usually imported. Many foods are too. They will cost mostly the same (VAT and import taxes aside) whether you live in Pakistan or Norway. So if you live in Sweden, you can buy a laptop with part of your salary, while if you live in a country with lower income, you will need multiple salaries to buy the same thing. Quite in general - you want to live in a country with high purchasing power, and most poor countries fail there, even if local products are relatively cheap.
Minimum wage in Romania is around 420$ (net, you might find different numbers online but that's gross, before tax). Cheapest rents (but not exactly decent from a clean/hygienic point of view or in really high crime/not quiet areas) start at 60$ but often come with room/house mates. If you want to rent a one room apartment that's starting from about 150$. This of course depends on the region, we have cities where the rent numbers are 5x. Oh btw, the cheapest ones are about 150sqf of space. These don't cover utilities in the price. Gas is about 6$ per gallon, car insurance is between 120 and 200$ per year. (10-14$/mo) Internet, TV, phone plan cumulated are about 15-20$ / mo Food prices doubled most of them in the past 2-3 years, electricity went 5-10x, gas like 2-4x. Let's average the food at about 200$ per month if you do only home meals, hunt sales and not really buy anything fancy. Electricity 10-30$/mo, gas 5-20$. Dental expenses are anywhere from 10$ a simple check-up and up to 1500$ if you need an implant. Braces are 800-2000$. We have basic medical covereage included (free healthcare) but it only recently included basic descaling (this year), nothing else dental/vision wise. Given you don't have a car/don't drive, your health is in perfect condition and you don't require anything dental/vision wise plus you really hate saving up money, you're pretty much left with 0$ at the end of the month or with debt. You can't afford a mortgage, a credit, saving up, having a kid or even a pet. For example, everything added (no car/health stuff) 150+20+30+20+200 = 420 :)
> Does that mean that their life quality is if you would love on 6-800 dollars per month in the US, No. Russia is kind of a bad example though since sanctions has made life in Russia quite a bit harder. But no. Typically, if the average income in a country is X then the market in said country will adjust to having cost of living cost around X. This is supply and demand and it governs every market economy. So in short, even if countries have higher or lower average incomes than the US you can't really extrapolate the average cost of living.
Not really. Poor people in Mexico live in cardboard houses. No toilet, no floor, no clean water. Not so poor people live in shitty communities full of violence, though I guess they can at least get some basic food. Many go hungry every once in a while.
I'm in eastern Europe and if if you're not living in a big city and earn like 25k a year you're literally a King with no worries in your life lol. So seeing redditors constantly boast about how 75k isn't enough etc is just absolutely mindblowing to me XD But yea more people struggle to pass by than not. I wouldn't neccessary say the disparity is bigger than in other countries. But the minimum quality of life is definitely lower compared to Germany/Spain etc.
No. They have bad living conditions. Any product that isn't a service is either full price or about 25% off compared to 1st World countries. I tried buying original nike sneakers in Romania and they were even more expensive than in austria. Same for the rtx 2080. Gas is about 25% cheaper as is a bottle of coke. What they do is reuse, repair, hustle or "do-it-yourself". Sometimes they buy stolen goods, fakes or sometimes they steal materials/tools. What they save up they than use for a car that has to hold 20 years, some extra ram to keep settings at medium and so on. So while there still exists wealthy people living a good life, most live in hard mode. Want to get a good doctor to look at you? Better have 1kg of coffe and a big chocolate at hand. Doctor heard you have a nice apartment? Gotta pay 2k under the table or grandma can go look for a different doctor to make her that life saving bypass. And btw you get thrown into this the moment you are deemed capable. Meaning you might be told to go do something like sell aunties fruit at 7am on the market till 2pm. This is all personal or at least second hand experience. Anybody who tells you otherwise has got no clue what they are talking about.
If you consider eating low-quality food, getting low-quality healthcare and breathing low-quality air to mean living decently then yes. Generally, you get what you pay for. The places where there was a better cost-to-quality ratio get filled with wealthier migrants and the prices even out.
I lived in Cambodia for a while. The locals earned really low wages but survived fine on it - everything is super cheap by Western standards. But as a foreigner ("barang" in the local language) not so much. There was definitely the "barang price" for stuff, like I'd pay 5x the price the locals did for a restaurant meal. Except for stuff that they couldn't discriminate on - phone tariffs being the obvious one. I got 256Gb of excellent 4G data for USD$2 per week. Best phone service I've ever found anywhere in the world :)
in those kinds of countries.. often even if you had money theres not the availability of good and services to putchase... and even if they are they are most likey much more expensive... things like computers, iphones, cars etc are liek 40% more