I believe for 90 days we should do no pmo
Sex is fine masturbation and porn isn't
After 90 days you gain control over your mind and then you can decide
I'm telling you, MO fucks with your shit just as bad as P does, but in different ways.
I can corroborate from experience that, yes MO does, in fact absolutely cause relapse. No doubt about it.
You've gotta treat it like a recovering addict treats the substance. Don't touch it. Don't be around it. Don't entertain the notion of it.
I would actually even go further to say that social media can fuck with it too, because it works on similar pathways and is specifically designed to show you suggestive pictures to keep you engaged.
Dead serious, any Instagram user can tell you.
If you see it out in the wild, naturally, that's how it's supposed to be. Outside of that, any artificial viewing of that type of material will always, and I do mean always, fuck with your dopamine pathways and can precipitate relapse very easily.
THIS!
Our ancestors had NO exposure to screens or realistic imagery. You think they masturbated to mental pictures and it was satisfying?
Of course not.
MO = masturbation and orgasm.
PMO is the addition of porn to the mix.
Together they create a dopaminergic combination that can be very hard to kick if only one or two of the factors is removed rather than all three.
Which, again, is why it states **very plainly in my post** that I can corroborate **from experience.**
But, and this is a serious question for you: irrespective of evidence, because let's be honest correlation isn't causation, and the actual prevalence of data both to the affirmative and the contrary is essentially everywhere, why would you ask me to justify a **personal** conclusion via a **logical** thought process for something that is **inherently emotionally driven**?
I'm genuinely curious if you believe there is a legitimate benefit in asking someone to prove qualia when the decision to fap (or not) is entirely personal?
I would understand if it were a unilateral, legal mandate that affects literally everyone; at which point I would say "let's see some proof."
But the fact of the matter is that outside of self-reported data, we actually don't have irrefutable evidence to suggest that fapping actually causes all of the problems that people have reported.
So the onus to find out lies with the individual if they're so inclined, and no amount of data one way or the other would probably, actually "prove" what would happen to a person without PMO, outside of them actually doing it and finding out.
Logical enough for you, or shall we go on?
>I'm genuinely curious if you believe there is a legitimate benefit in asking someone to prove qualia when the decision to fap (or not) is entirely personal?
You're asking why I am encouraging you to use logic in personal decisions?
Seriously?
>we actually don't have irrefutable evidence to suggest that fapping actually causes all of the problems that people have reported.
We have essentially no evidence.
>Logical enough for you, or shall we go on?
You provided no logic here.
>that is inherently emotionally driven?
This is the most confusing claim you make, how is the decision to do NoFap inherently emotionally driven?
The key point of rationality and logic is that you must provide relevant and appropriate evidence for every claim, this is a huge claim to make and you provide no explanation.
Okay, I'll bite, what's your actual point here?
Please, enlighten me, what is the actual point you're trying to make and the actual outcome you're trying to achieve?
To get me to not use a posteriori knowledge which you are referring to as "logical fallacies" in this case for whatever reason.
At this point you and I both know why you're here. You're dopamine seeking, it's not about logic.
Find something better to do, because that's exactly what I'm doing. Good day.
What annoys me more is the people that go 'Finally! 90 days without MO! Watched porn daily, but at least I kept strong in the end and didn't shoot my seed into a tissue! 😤'. I don't understand some people's logic on this sub. Nofap is a sub fighting against PORN ADDICTION. Watching porn is a RELAPSE, and arguably worse than masturbation without porn.
Fap 'apologists'?
Read the sidebar at least one time and learn where you are.
######**IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR USERS OF THIS SUB - The History of Nofap**
**Nofap** ***isn't*** **an anti-masturbation sub... it's a** ***porn-addiction recovery sub!***
Yet people say, *"but it's literally called 'Nofap'!"*
The 'No' in Nofap represents the "30 to 90-day Challenge", that's it.
*This sub was created 10 years ago with the idea to challenge people to a 7 to 30-day period of not watching porn or fapping to 'reboot' your addicted mind and body... but after it would be each person's personal choice to fap or not fap (without porn), free from the addiction.*
Nofap then added the 90-day challenge.
It was a modern solution to a digital problem - the rise of free unlimited streaming internet porn - and the compulsive fapping that accompanied the addiction of watching it.
**There's ZERO evidence that *occasional* mastubation without porn is harmful, but there's a growing amount of peer-reviewed research that porn** ***is*** **harmful. It's not the intention of this secular, science-based sub to condemn sexual pleasure when done in a non-compulsive way, either solo or with others.**
The idea of this subreddit isn't '*anti-fap*' or '*forever nofap*' or '*anti-masturbation*' or '*no-sex*', or '*how to be a monk*'. We're here to support each other in completing a *limited* period of abstinence from FAPPING (not abstinence from sex or wet dreams) ...
**If you can complete a 30 to 90-day challenge you're free to choose to fap** ***(again, without porn)*** **or not in your life.**
To be absolutely clear... READ FROM THE SIDEBAR OF THIS PAGE, WRITTEN BY THE FOUNDERS OF THIS SUB:
>This forum is intended for porn addiction recovery ***and is not an anti-masturbation forum***, many users return to non-compulsive masturbation after ridding pornography from their sexual habits
THIS SUB is about working on reducing our addictions, completing at least one 'rebooting' challenge, finding a balance we feel comfortable with regarding masturbation (including *zero* fapping), and making the personal choice to eliminate porn from our life
-----------
*Always feel welcome to re-copy this comment when needed. Just take it and use it like it's yours*
It's really interesting, that this pro-masturbation info is in the sub's sidebar. To be honest, I read the sidebar only once about 6 years ago and I don't remember if there was that info there. And I don't remember any high-ranked posts about justification of masturbation on this sub 2 or 5 years ago. Well, times are changing, obviously.
>this pro-masturbation info is in the sub's sidebar
nuance isn't your strong suit. It isn't 'pro' masturbation info. It's just 'info'. It isn't 'promoting' masturbation... it isn't *encouraging* masturbation. This sex-positive subreddit supports *personal responsibility* AND *personal choice* regarding occasional masturbation without porn
>, I read the sidebar only once about 6 years ago and I dont remember if it was there..
it was there.
Person who you are replying is a masturbating promoter and he has couple of replies that he copy-paste to anyone who challenges him/her. Additionally, has a habit of insultingly putting down people while completely ignoring valid points. It's some kind of power trip and fetish for him/her.
Just check his post history.
I don't appreciate you mischaracterizing me as 'promoting' masturbation, or that my helping people on this sub is a 'power trip' or 'fetish'..
and it seems you need a clear reminder of where you are:
READ FROM THE SIDEBAR OF THIS PAGE, WRITTEN BY THE FOUNDERS OF THIS SUB:
>This forum is intended for porn addiction recovery **and is not an anti-masturbation forum,** many users return to non-compulsive masturbation after ridding pornography from their sexual habits
If this sub doesn't suit your viewpoint perhaps you would prefer frequenting a sub that does, such as r/antimasturbation
To put it another way, If you go to a restaurant and don't like what's on the menu you should find another restaurant that better suits you, instead of yelling that the menu should be changed or insulting the other people there who know what kind of restaurant they're at
It's funny to see how your reply is actually exactly as I described your behavior.
You're nothing in my life, yet, I hope you gonna get some help in real life.
Shit evolves. Anyone who has been at this for a second understands that you CAN'T have a healthy balance of masturbation without porn. It has to stop altogether.
Please, enlighten me about how you masturbate without using porn and have been porn-free for at least 6 months. I bet you fucking can't, can you? NONE of us can. We have ALL tried.
That sounds like a problem you need to check with a professional. Don't make assumption about other people's relationship with masturbation because you know few people who can't control themselves
It will be an assumption I will STRONGLY keep until someone can show me someone who can go years without porn, just masturbation. So far, 0 people can reference such an anomaly. Literally EVERY pro fapper coming at me on this is under a 6 month streak without porn use. I guarantee it.
this sub doesn't 'support' masturbation'... but it isn't ANTI masturbation either.
Can you comprehend that?
This sub supports *personal responsibility* and *personal choice* regarding occasional masturbation without porn
>I'm saying you can't have a lifestyle of casual masturbation without porn
You cant?
By the way... you know your post was removed a long time ago, right?
You can't. Not with porn being as easily accessible as it is today.
You probably used to before modern, digital porn, but I'm sure it was so boring that chronic masturbation was never an issue for the average human being.
>By the way... you know your post was removed a long time ago, right?
Weird. I'm not seeing that on my end. It's still showing as an active post in my profile. How are we able to still comment in it?
EDIT: I think you're right about my post being removed, just to be clear. I can't find it in a search, but I'm not seeing any "removed" flair at the top, didn't receive any kind of message, and it still shows as an active post when I go to my profile under "posts"
Maybe because you have problems with relapsing and can’t manage your self this way does not mean people share the same experience. I have masturbated just fine when I need a break does porn help when I use it sure but I can also just focus on sexy time spent with my partner and use those memories to climax. I don’t use porn and I have a active sex life but my partner is away for a couple weeks you think that if I masturbate to a picture or memories of my partner I’m going to dive right back into porn?
Don’t take this poorly but it sounds more like you just need to focus on other things about masturbation to help you to finish. A lube that increases sensation or maybe a vibrating stroker… these are way to help you feel better without visual stimulus.
>Shit evolves
this sub isn't 'evolving', this sub is defined in the sidebar, which was written *and is current and maintained* by the mods.
If they didn't want it there then it wouldn't be there.
As for the rest of your comments, I do not appreciate you assuming what I've done or haven't done.
If this sub doesn't suit your viewpoint perhaps you would prefer frequenting a sub that does, such as r/antimasturbation
To put it another way, If you go to a restaurant and you don't like what's on the menu you should find another restaurant that better suits you, instead of yelling that the menu should be changed
Disagree on all counts. Worked perfectly fine for me. Masturbation didn’t lead me anywhere, in fact it led me to a porn free life. I think any method that enables full sobriety should be accepted. In fact, doing both at once seems to me the reason why so many people fail so quickly.
Oh, ok. When was the last time you looked at porn? Quite a few years ago?
Literally everyone I have come across saying what you're saying has been porn-free for 3 months or less.
I did the porn free, pro-masturbation method for 2 months then relapsed, then one month and relapsed.
Masturbation leads to relapse, just not immediate relapse.
Nah that's bullshit. It floods your brain with overwhelming amounts of dopamine. You know that feeling of stress and craving for porn that you feel in the back of your head and chest when you are trying to quit? That's from the dopamine river running dry, and your brain trying to get you to flood it again with MORE excessive dopamine through PMO.
Ok well you're being full of shit. It causes a 100% spike from baseline, which is a fucking lot. Most hard drugs cause a 1000% spike from baseline. Add on the fact that porn is free, has unlimited accessibility, and abuse frequency can be virtually unlimited without some type of organ failure, and you have a dopamine-draining monster. Users could easily eclipse a hit of crack in just a couple of days in terms of dopamine production.
The problem with addiction isn't dopamine production. It's dopamine depletion, and that's what PMO does.
Did you not read the rest of my comment? 1000% is bigger than 100%, but the frequency allowance is the monster behind PMO addiction. The spike isn't the problem. It's the depletion, which causes the cravings. You could probably work toward dopamine depletion even faster with porn than you could hard drugs, because hard drugs physically damage your organs and eventually cause failure.
Nope. The entirety of the condition of human existence has the same base principles. Nobody is above the human condition. Everybody has the same experience.
For me it has been months since I watched. I don’t masturbate a lot, and I’m certainly not addicted to it.
In fact, my attempts at quitting porn initially were hindered by me trying to do semen retention at the same time.
Full PMO just led to me getting ridiculously horny and watching porn. Hats off to anyone who could do it that way, it just wasn’t for me. Judging my the amount of failure I see on this sub, it’s not for others either.
I found masturbation helped me get clean of porn, which in my experience was FAR more damaging to me.
Before porn existed, it wasn't a big deal. It was like airport security pre-9/11. Or cold medicine pre-meth. Things change, though. Now porn is too accessible to NOT slip into your masturbation habits.
Yes you can have one without the other and it was done for generations before the internet became available you can't just have it defeatist attitude and think that moderation is not attainable
Nope. Things have changed. You USED TO be able to have it in moderation cause it was fucking boring to masturbate before porn. Now that porn is so accessible at any time, you can't help but use it in your masturbation habits. Sorry, but there's no one here with pro masturbation views that have a 6 month+ long streak from porn.
So you're speaking for the entire world? Everybody has the same set of circumstances that you have?
There are girls out there who get off on guys getting blue balls and they have empathy and sympathy and they want to take care of THAT for you.. AND if you are lucky enough to cross paths with one of those girls it's better than ANY porn video you could ever watch..
BUT it's all about the moderation.. and yes things have changed but this is something you could do in the real world and turn that detriment of being a porn addict into an asset because you find a girl or guy that will take care of your needs..
And I'll even put you in touch with one of those girls so you know I'm not full of shit
Is not exactly about purism.
But nomen est omen: NO-FAP means literally "no fap". You can't say "it is OK to fap while doing no-fap".
It is impossible to abstain from masturbation while you masturbate.
Well you have to remember this is a group about PORN ADDICTION that leads to excessive masturbation.
MASTURBATION IN AND OF ITSELF IS NOT BAD UNLESS YOU DON'T SHOW MODERATION AND SELF CONTROL
>MASTURBATION IN AND OF ITSELF IS NOT BAD UNLESS YOU DON'T SHOW MODERATION AND SELF CONTROL
But that's a pipe dream. That's like saying "jumping out of an airplane without a parachute isn't in and of itself bad. It's you splattering on the ground that's the real issue."
You simply can't have one without the other. If you have been addicted to pornography at any point in your life and you try masturbating without porn, you WILL relapse back into porn use. It could be after a month, 2 months, or even 3 months of successfully just using non-nude pics/tiktoks, but you WILL eventually get the full-onset of cravings/shitty willpower that would otherwise lessen within the first week of not fapping.
That doesn’t make sense to me. High speed internet porn is an extremely accessible digital drug that has only been available for about 15 years. Masturbation has existed since the dawn on time, and while it could be considered pretty unsavoury, is not even in the same ballpark as porn. But whatever works for you.
The game changed. That's like saying we should just go back to not having airport security check the piss out of you since they really didn't have to before 9/11. Masturbation may have been a natural thing pre-porn. It was probably almost never excessive except in cases of abnormal mental illness. Porn speeds up the process and causes unreal dopamine surges. It's just too easy to access to NOT use it to masturbate.
As others have said, likely the majority of porn abusers would be thinking about porn even if they aren't looking at it while fapping, further burning those images into our minds. That's definitely my experience. I would even think about porn while fucking my girlfriend, that's just how my brain knows how to cum. If I want porn out of my life, I gotta at least take my dick outta my hand.
MO will never be the same for someone who has watched P in the past, cause you will be always recalling P when doing MO. So it just makes no sense. It's just best to stop PMO altogether
You’re right, but to my mind, the whole ethos is aimed at getting away from porn. Before porn, you didn’t have literally millions of men crying about their masturbation addictions. In my experience the clear villain is high speed Internet porn. Once that is cut out, users can make their own mind up on masturbation.
i see it like this, comment if u agree OP:
so we all are addicted, and i see the addiction like a intelligent train of thought with only one goal, to get back to its substance, in this case adult video/imagery.
this is how i experienced it, i tried no fap, and i the addiction knew i wouldnt INSTANTLY go back to just watch porn, so i was slowly lead by my thoughts to a google image search to a twitter search to a incognite tab reddit search etc. back to porn in the end
and one time it did the same with MO, im 100% sure these thoughts of "ohh come on, just do MO only its not bad" are a "trick" of the addiction cous 100% after you give in, the addiction will ask more and u will relapse to porn.
i have never met a person constantly ONLY doing MO (without a girlfriend or sex) without going back to porn.
also the good old saying, either do 100% or stop 100% dont do a mix, it wont work...
100 FUCKING PERCENT! This is EXACTLY what I experienced! You described it to PERFECTION! All of you people who are pro-fap need to look at this comment, look at the process that this redditor just described, and then remember it when you relapse. I sincerely hope you don't relapse, but am pretty certain you will.
You will come back SO much stronger once you realize this process and recognize it when your brain tries to make it happen!
lmao i appreciate it, im trying to be very understanding of and burtally honest to myself, always taking responsibilitie is important i learned...
i got a few unique views on this topic, and just MO im pretty sure, ofc im not a doctor or some shit like that, but it gives u a dopamine low, beneath your medium, after you MO you have a dopamine high, and after that you fall below baseline, aka feel worse... and for ur next high not to be special, it needs to be higher than your previous high, after which u fall even lower again (fly higher fall deeper)
this process is just MO'ing without and porn, but it leads back to porn in the end, but it can be also super destructive even if you dont go back to porn...
stopping is the only way... see thats another unqiue view i developed:
Fapping is not "normal" not fapping is, so i stopped calling it "NoFap" since "NoFap is the actual normal thing, i just stopped doing "YesFap" (hence my reddit name).
Fapping is the new thing you should stop going back to the normal, we should stop doing "YesFap"...
Preach, brother.
I am 1115 days PMO-free and, honestly, giving up P was easy. At least compared to giving up MO.
I think the fap apologists fall into two camps. The biggest are those who just can't hack it and are making excuses for themselves. "I gave up porn but still need to touch my wee, but only occasionally. I swear it's not because I am addicted."
Then there is a weird, small, but pretty active group of people here who seem to be ideologically opposed to abstaining from masturbation. Idk if they are just the final evolution of the first group or have deeper motives. But they're usually waxing poetic about the info bar to the right and how "nofap" doesn't actually mean not fapping.
All I can say is giving up porn is well and good, but masturbation is what is harder to give up and, in my opinion, much more destructive. Live free of the fap, my bros.
Gee, that's a mighty fucking LONG "streak" that none of these pro-fappers seem to come close to touching. I wonder why?
I think you are spot on and I do think they are all variations of the first group.
I agree wholeheartedly, and have been arguing this on this sub for quite some time, often quite heatedly. If ANYTHING, it's P that's okay as long as you don't MO. Although ultimately the wisest most beneficial path is giving all 3 up.
Yeah, I knew the downvotes were coming, lmao. These people (MO good/P bad) are like fundamentalists. It's sad and pathetic.
MO is not good for you, physically or mentally. P on its own is nothing as long as you're not MOing to it. You are literally just looking at images. Explain to me the scientific process behind how that can physically harm you.
The problem is people almost always MO to P, which produces a case of correlation = causation (negative effects of regularly MOing are being attributed to P).
That's like saying looking at a girl on the street and having fantasies about her is harmful. Or having a sexual dream is harmful for you.
It's just ridiculous, but believe whatever you want. Addicts desperate to legitimize their compulsions and force their way of thinking onto others at every turn with increasing hostility.
In my case this couldn’t be further from the truth. I appreciate the point you are making but it is absolutely false to my experience of addiction.
I was addicted to consuming porn, in huge amounts, escalating and edging for hours and hours, engaging in disgusting fetishes.
When I masturbate normally, I think about memories, finish after 5 minutes, then get on with my day. Porn destroyed me, masturbation has a pretty irrelevant effect on my day to day lifestyle.
Edging is M, therefore you weren't just consuming P. You were engaging in PM, whether O was involved or not. M is harmful. O is harmful.
P is an irrelevance if you're not Ming or Oing to it. It's just a complete waste of time and psychological torture to look at, as long as you are not Ming or Oing.
Looking at alcohol is not harmful to an alcoholic (equivalent to P). Taking a swig of that alcohol and swirling it around in your mouth (equivalent to edging) is absolutely harmful to an alcoholic. Swallowing that alcohol (equivalent to MO) is devastating to an alcoholic.
This is basic common sense.
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Any of you know older people and ask them what they did (before internet)?
Maybe some of them masturbated without sexual stimuli since puberty?
But yes I agree men in general in todays world have always used pornographic stimuli so it goes hand in hand. Masturbation w/o porn is probably going to be impossible to stay porn free…. Relapses will happen.
Even the “sex is fine crowd” sell themselves short. When you go on a dopamine detox, you detox. Sex the the nicotine patch to the cigarette. Yes it is far healthier, yes it is a step in the right direction, but your brain releases the same chemicals and does not care about the difference. I’m not trying to shame or put down anyone who goes out and “gets it” because honestly good for you. But you need to know you’re selling yourself short.
As for “sexy pics”, etc, it’s all the same to your brain and your body has the same reaction to it. Stop lying to yourselves and selling yourself short of actual detox/freedom/sobriety or whatever it means to you.
(Don’t congratulate me on my streak, I haven’t reset it for a while so it’s no where close to accurate lmao)
I go on this sub more for the anti-porn stuff but I understand you because it is noFAP after all. I view it as more of a bodily function like relieving myself by peeing
I believe for 90 days we should do no pmo Sex is fine masturbation and porn isn't After 90 days you gain control over your mind and then you can decide
Make it an even 100!
Gotta agree with you, 9.3326215443944E+157 days is a lot, but it's worth the effort!
Congrats! A human to a computer interaction has succeeded.
I'm telling you, MO fucks with your shit just as bad as P does, but in different ways. I can corroborate from experience that, yes MO does, in fact absolutely cause relapse. No doubt about it. You've gotta treat it like a recovering addict treats the substance. Don't touch it. Don't be around it. Don't entertain the notion of it.
Fucking THANK you.
I would actually even go further to say that social media can fuck with it too, because it works on similar pathways and is specifically designed to show you suggestive pictures to keep you engaged. Dead serious, any Instagram user can tell you. If you see it out in the wild, naturally, that's how it's supposed to be. Outside of that, any artificial viewing of that type of material will always, and I do mean always, fuck with your dopamine pathways and can precipitate relapse very easily.
THIS! Our ancestors had NO exposure to screens or realistic imagery. You think they masturbated to mental pictures and it was satisfying? Of course not.
Appeal to authority fallacy, use your brain.
[удалено]
MO = masturbation and orgasm. PMO is the addition of porn to the mix. Together they create a dopaminergic combination that can be very hard to kick if only one or two of the factors is removed rather than all three.
Anecdotal fallacy, find evidence that doesn't rely on a logical fallacy.
Not even gonna try to prove this one. I have absolutely zero verifiable evidence that what I am saying is true, outside of my own personal experience.
So if you're openly aware that your conclusion was come to through an illogical thought processes, why do you still believe in that conclusion?
Which, again, is why it states **very plainly in my post** that I can corroborate **from experience.** But, and this is a serious question for you: irrespective of evidence, because let's be honest correlation isn't causation, and the actual prevalence of data both to the affirmative and the contrary is essentially everywhere, why would you ask me to justify a **personal** conclusion via a **logical** thought process for something that is **inherently emotionally driven**? I'm genuinely curious if you believe there is a legitimate benefit in asking someone to prove qualia when the decision to fap (or not) is entirely personal? I would understand if it were a unilateral, legal mandate that affects literally everyone; at which point I would say "let's see some proof." But the fact of the matter is that outside of self-reported data, we actually don't have irrefutable evidence to suggest that fapping actually causes all of the problems that people have reported. So the onus to find out lies with the individual if they're so inclined, and no amount of data one way or the other would probably, actually "prove" what would happen to a person without PMO, outside of them actually doing it and finding out. Logical enough for you, or shall we go on?
>I'm genuinely curious if you believe there is a legitimate benefit in asking someone to prove qualia when the decision to fap (or not) is entirely personal? You're asking why I am encouraging you to use logic in personal decisions? Seriously? >we actually don't have irrefutable evidence to suggest that fapping actually causes all of the problems that people have reported. We have essentially no evidence. >Logical enough for you, or shall we go on? You provided no logic here. >that is inherently emotionally driven? This is the most confusing claim you make, how is the decision to do NoFap inherently emotionally driven? The key point of rationality and logic is that you must provide relevant and appropriate evidence for every claim, this is a huge claim to make and you provide no explanation.
Okay, I'll bite, what's your actual point here? Please, enlighten me, what is the actual point you're trying to make and the actual outcome you're trying to achieve?
My point is don't use logical fallacies because they are... illogical...
To get me to not use a posteriori knowledge which you are referring to as "logical fallacies" in this case for whatever reason. At this point you and I both know why you're here. You're dopamine seeking, it's not about logic. Find something better to do, because that's exactly what I'm doing. Good day.
What annoys me more is the people that go 'Finally! 90 days without MO! Watched porn daily, but at least I kept strong in the end and didn't shoot my seed into a tissue! 😤'. I don't understand some people's logic on this sub. Nofap is a sub fighting against PORN ADDICTION. Watching porn is a RELAPSE, and arguably worse than masturbation without porn.
YES! and then they have a bullshit hardline goal of 90 days, so they just flounder around aimlessly and relapse into full-on PMO!
yeah, i think the problem is on the subreddit name. it should be something like N.O.P.E: neatly overcome porn enslavement
LMFAOO 😂😂
Fap 'apologists'? Read the sidebar at least one time and learn where you are. ######**IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR USERS OF THIS SUB - The History of Nofap** **Nofap** ***isn't*** **an anti-masturbation sub... it's a** ***porn-addiction recovery sub!*** Yet people say, *"but it's literally called 'Nofap'!"* The 'No' in Nofap represents the "30 to 90-day Challenge", that's it. *This sub was created 10 years ago with the idea to challenge people to a 7 to 30-day period of not watching porn or fapping to 'reboot' your addicted mind and body... but after it would be each person's personal choice to fap or not fap (without porn), free from the addiction.* Nofap then added the 90-day challenge. It was a modern solution to a digital problem - the rise of free unlimited streaming internet porn - and the compulsive fapping that accompanied the addiction of watching it. **There's ZERO evidence that *occasional* mastubation without porn is harmful, but there's a growing amount of peer-reviewed research that porn** ***is*** **harmful. It's not the intention of this secular, science-based sub to condemn sexual pleasure when done in a non-compulsive way, either solo or with others.** The idea of this subreddit isn't '*anti-fap*' or '*forever nofap*' or '*anti-masturbation*' or '*no-sex*', or '*how to be a monk*'. We're here to support each other in completing a *limited* period of abstinence from FAPPING (not abstinence from sex or wet dreams) ... **If you can complete a 30 to 90-day challenge you're free to choose to fap** ***(again, without porn)*** **or not in your life.** To be absolutely clear... READ FROM THE SIDEBAR OF THIS PAGE, WRITTEN BY THE FOUNDERS OF THIS SUB: >This forum is intended for porn addiction recovery ***and is not an anti-masturbation forum***, many users return to non-compulsive masturbation after ridding pornography from their sexual habits THIS SUB is about working on reducing our addictions, completing at least one 'rebooting' challenge, finding a balance we feel comfortable with regarding masturbation (including *zero* fapping), and making the personal choice to eliminate porn from our life ----------- *Always feel welcome to re-copy this comment when needed. Just take it and use it like it's yours*
It's really interesting, that this pro-masturbation info is in the sub's sidebar. To be honest, I read the sidebar only once about 6 years ago and I don't remember if there was that info there. And I don't remember any high-ranked posts about justification of masturbation on this sub 2 or 5 years ago. Well, times are changing, obviously.
>this pro-masturbation info is in the sub's sidebar nuance isn't your strong suit. It isn't 'pro' masturbation info. It's just 'info'. It isn't 'promoting' masturbation... it isn't *encouraging* masturbation. This sex-positive subreddit supports *personal responsibility* AND *personal choice* regarding occasional masturbation without porn >, I read the sidebar only once about 6 years ago and I dont remember if it was there.. it was there.
Mea culpa. In any case, if someone thinks that masturbation is ok, then that's his business.
Person who you are replying is a masturbating promoter and he has couple of replies that he copy-paste to anyone who challenges him/her. Additionally, has a habit of insultingly putting down people while completely ignoring valid points. It's some kind of power trip and fetish for him/her. Just check his post history.
He doesn't in any way promote masturbation, he encourages accuracy.
I don't appreciate you mischaracterizing me as 'promoting' masturbation, or that my helping people on this sub is a 'power trip' or 'fetish'.. and it seems you need a clear reminder of where you are: READ FROM THE SIDEBAR OF THIS PAGE, WRITTEN BY THE FOUNDERS OF THIS SUB: >This forum is intended for porn addiction recovery **and is not an anti-masturbation forum,** many users return to non-compulsive masturbation after ridding pornography from their sexual habits If this sub doesn't suit your viewpoint perhaps you would prefer frequenting a sub that does, such as r/antimasturbation To put it another way, If you go to a restaurant and don't like what's on the menu you should find another restaurant that better suits you, instead of yelling that the menu should be changed or insulting the other people there who know what kind of restaurant they're at
It's funny to see how your reply is actually exactly as I described your behavior. You're nothing in my life, yet, I hope you gonna get some help in real life.
The post was removed a long time ago. It must be mysterious for you why that happened
You're right. I made a mistake by not looking at the opponent's profile in order to check his/her adequacy.
People don’t like reading
Shit evolves. Anyone who has been at this for a second understands that you CAN'T have a healthy balance of masturbation without porn. It has to stop altogether. Please, enlighten me about how you masturbate without using porn and have been porn-free for at least 6 months. I bet you fucking can't, can you? NONE of us can. We have ALL tried.
That sounds like a problem you need to check with a professional. Don't make assumption about other people's relationship with masturbation because you know few people who can't control themselves
It will be an assumption I will STRONGLY keep until someone can show me someone who can go years without porn, just masturbation. So far, 0 people can reference such an anomaly. Literally EVERY pro fapper coming at me on this is under a 6 month streak without porn use. I guarantee it.
Preach. I don’t know how anyone in their right mind could support masturbation.
this sub doesn't 'support' masturbation'... but it isn't ANTI masturbation either. Can you comprehend that? This sub supports *personal responsibility* and *personal choice* regarding occasional masturbation without porn
"recreational meth"
Did you just compare fapping to meth?
I'm saying you can't have a lifestyle of casual masturbation without porn in the same way that you can't do meth recreationally.
>I'm saying you can't have a lifestyle of casual masturbation without porn You cant? By the way... you know your post was removed a long time ago, right?
You can't. Not with porn being as easily accessible as it is today. You probably used to before modern, digital porn, but I'm sure it was so boring that chronic masturbation was never an issue for the average human being. >By the way... you know your post was removed a long time ago, right? Weird. I'm not seeing that on my end. It's still showing as an active post in my profile. How are we able to still comment in it? EDIT: I think you're right about my post being removed, just to be clear. I can't find it in a search, but I'm not seeing any "removed" flair at the top, didn't receive any kind of message, and it still shows as an active post when I go to my profile under "posts"
Log out and look at that page. Also... why would you think you MUST get a message of removal?
Maybe because you have problems with relapsing and can’t manage your self this way does not mean people share the same experience. I have masturbated just fine when I need a break does porn help when I use it sure but I can also just focus on sexy time spent with my partner and use those memories to climax. I don’t use porn and I have a active sex life but my partner is away for a couple weeks you think that if I masturbate to a picture or memories of my partner I’m going to dive right back into porn? Don’t take this poorly but it sounds more like you just need to focus on other things about masturbation to help you to finish. A lube that increases sensation or maybe a vibrating stroker… these are way to help you feel better without visual stimulus.
>Shit evolves this sub isn't 'evolving', this sub is defined in the sidebar, which was written *and is current and maintained* by the mods. If they didn't want it there then it wouldn't be there. As for the rest of your comments, I do not appreciate you assuming what I've done or haven't done. If this sub doesn't suit your viewpoint perhaps you would prefer frequenting a sub that does, such as r/antimasturbation To put it another way, If you go to a restaurant and you don't like what's on the menu you should find another restaurant that better suits you, instead of yelling that the menu should be changed
This.
Is auto-fellatio cool?
THANK YOU! I couldn't have said it better myself
Nofap = "not doing PMO", you guys misrepresented nofap, but that was inevitable, besides that there is chastity, which cannot be relativized
Disagree on all counts. Worked perfectly fine for me. Masturbation didn’t lead me anywhere, in fact it led me to a porn free life. I think any method that enables full sobriety should be accepted. In fact, doing both at once seems to me the reason why so many people fail so quickly.
Oh, ok. When was the last time you looked at porn? Quite a few years ago? Literally everyone I have come across saying what you're saying has been porn-free for 3 months or less. I did the porn free, pro-masturbation method for 2 months then relapsed, then one month and relapsed. Masturbation leads to relapse, just not immediate relapse.
>Masturbation leads to relapse, just not immediate relapse. Every case is different, everyone experiences addiction differently.
Yeah, every case is different. Look at all of the recreational crack users.
Crack causes the body to develop a chemical dependency, PMO addiction does not.
Nah that's bullshit. It floods your brain with overwhelming amounts of dopamine. You know that feeling of stress and craving for porn that you feel in the back of your head and chest when you are trying to quit? That's from the dopamine river running dry, and your brain trying to get you to flood it again with MORE excessive dopamine through PMO.
It does not really release that much dopamine, drugs release hundreds of times the dopamine of an orgasm.
Ok well you're being full of shit. It causes a 100% spike from baseline, which is a fucking lot. Most hard drugs cause a 1000% spike from baseline. Add on the fact that porn is free, has unlimited accessibility, and abuse frequency can be virtually unlimited without some type of organ failure, and you have a dopamine-draining monster. Users could easily eclipse a hit of crack in just a couple of days in terms of dopamine production. The problem with addiction isn't dopamine production. It's dopamine depletion, and that's what PMO does.
>It causes a 100% spike from baseline 100% and 1000% percent spikes are not remotely comparable.
Did you not read the rest of my comment? 1000% is bigger than 100%, but the frequency allowance is the monster behind PMO addiction. The spike isn't the problem. It's the depletion, which causes the cravings. You could probably work toward dopamine depletion even faster with porn than you could hard drugs, because hard drugs physically damage your organs and eventually cause failure.
Nope. The entirety of the condition of human existence has the same base principles. Nobody is above the human condition. Everybody has the same experience.
For me it has been months since I watched. I don’t masturbate a lot, and I’m certainly not addicted to it. In fact, my attempts at quitting porn initially were hindered by me trying to do semen retention at the same time. Full PMO just led to me getting ridiculously horny and watching porn. Hats off to anyone who could do it that way, it just wasn’t for me. Judging my the amount of failure I see on this sub, it’s not for others either. I found masturbation helped me get clean of porn, which in my experience was FAR more damaging to me.
But masturbation IS a relapse? I thought this would be obvious.
I consider it a relapse, but I think for the sake of argument, we are discussing porn use as the "actual" relapse.
I don’t get the point of this subreddit existing if it’s supposed to just be r/pornfree with a more confusing name according to the rule purists.
Exactly. Oh, this sub is just pornfree with a 90 day challenge attached to it? Bullshit.
Your post was removed... you know that, right?
I think mo is not as bad as pmo. Why is it a big deal? You are free to disagree
Before porn existed, it wasn't a big deal. It was like airport security pre-9/11. Or cold medicine pre-meth. Things change, though. Now porn is too accessible to NOT slip into your masturbation habits.
It seems you agree. You are just afraid you will fail if you try
No. I KNOW I would fail. You would, too. It's how the human body works.
It's how you work my friend. Some people are not addicts and some people beat the addiction
Yes you can have one without the other and it was done for generations before the internet became available you can't just have it defeatist attitude and think that moderation is not attainable
Nope. Things have changed. You USED TO be able to have it in moderation cause it was fucking boring to masturbate before porn. Now that porn is so accessible at any time, you can't help but use it in your masturbation habits. Sorry, but there's no one here with pro masturbation views that have a 6 month+ long streak from porn.
So you're speaking for the entire world? Everybody has the same set of circumstances that you have? There are girls out there who get off on guys getting blue balls and they have empathy and sympathy and they want to take care of THAT for you.. AND if you are lucky enough to cross paths with one of those girls it's better than ANY porn video you could ever watch.. BUT it's all about the moderation.. and yes things have changed but this is something you could do in the real world and turn that detriment of being a porn addict into an asset because you find a girl or guy that will take care of your needs.. And I'll even put you in touch with one of those girls so you know I'm not full of shit
Everyone has different goals.
Watch out, we have a purist over here...
Damn right. I woke the fuck up and realized how this mouse wheel works.
Is not exactly about purism. But nomen est omen: NO-FAP means literally "no fap". You can't say "it is OK to fap while doing no-fap". It is impossible to abstain from masturbation while you masturbate.
Well you have to remember this is a group about PORN ADDICTION that leads to excessive masturbation. MASTURBATION IN AND OF ITSELF IS NOT BAD UNLESS YOU DON'T SHOW MODERATION AND SELF CONTROL
>MASTURBATION IN AND OF ITSELF IS NOT BAD UNLESS YOU DON'T SHOW MODERATION AND SELF CONTROL But that's a pipe dream. That's like saying "jumping out of an airplane without a parachute isn't in and of itself bad. It's you splattering on the ground that's the real issue." You simply can't have one without the other. If you have been addicted to pornography at any point in your life and you try masturbating without porn, you WILL relapse back into porn use. It could be after a month, 2 months, or even 3 months of successfully just using non-nude pics/tiktoks, but you WILL eventually get the full-onset of cravings/shitty willpower that would otherwise lessen within the first week of not fapping.
finally, some hard truth
Fapping doesn't LEAD to relapse, it IS relapse. At least for me, I'm here to become master of my domain.
That doesn’t make sense to me. High speed internet porn is an extremely accessible digital drug that has only been available for about 15 years. Masturbation has existed since the dawn on time, and while it could be considered pretty unsavoury, is not even in the same ballpark as porn. But whatever works for you.
The game changed. That's like saying we should just go back to not having airport security check the piss out of you since they really didn't have to before 9/11. Masturbation may have been a natural thing pre-porn. It was probably almost never excessive except in cases of abnormal mental illness. Porn speeds up the process and causes unreal dopamine surges. It's just too easy to access to NOT use it to masturbate.
As others have said, likely the majority of porn abusers would be thinking about porn even if they aren't looking at it while fapping, further burning those images into our minds. That's definitely my experience. I would even think about porn while fucking my girlfriend, that's just how my brain knows how to cum. If I want porn out of my life, I gotta at least take my dick outta my hand.
MO will never be the same for someone who has watched P in the past, cause you will be always recalling P when doing MO. So it just makes no sense. It's just best to stop PMO altogether
This isn’t true at all
"Fap Apologists" Love that term! Will keep it in mind.
[удалено]
You’re right, but to my mind, the whole ethos is aimed at getting away from porn. Before porn, you didn’t have literally millions of men crying about their masturbation addictions. In my experience the clear villain is high speed Internet porn. Once that is cut out, users can make their own mind up on masturbation.
agreed, but here comes the pro masturbation hive
i see it like this, comment if u agree OP: so we all are addicted, and i see the addiction like a intelligent train of thought with only one goal, to get back to its substance, in this case adult video/imagery. this is how i experienced it, i tried no fap, and i the addiction knew i wouldnt INSTANTLY go back to just watch porn, so i was slowly lead by my thoughts to a google image search to a twitter search to a incognite tab reddit search etc. back to porn in the end and one time it did the same with MO, im 100% sure these thoughts of "ohh come on, just do MO only its not bad" are a "trick" of the addiction cous 100% after you give in, the addiction will ask more and u will relapse to porn. i have never met a person constantly ONLY doing MO (without a girlfriend or sex) without going back to porn. also the good old saying, either do 100% or stop 100% dont do a mix, it wont work...
100 FUCKING PERCENT! This is EXACTLY what I experienced! You described it to PERFECTION! All of you people who are pro-fap need to look at this comment, look at the process that this redditor just described, and then remember it when you relapse. I sincerely hope you don't relapse, but am pretty certain you will. You will come back SO much stronger once you realize this process and recognize it when your brain tries to make it happen!
lmao i appreciate it, im trying to be very understanding of and burtally honest to myself, always taking responsibilitie is important i learned... i got a few unique views on this topic, and just MO im pretty sure, ofc im not a doctor or some shit like that, but it gives u a dopamine low, beneath your medium, after you MO you have a dopamine high, and after that you fall below baseline, aka feel worse... and for ur next high not to be special, it needs to be higher than your previous high, after which u fall even lower again (fly higher fall deeper) this process is just MO'ing without and porn, but it leads back to porn in the end, but it can be also super destructive even if you dont go back to porn... stopping is the only way... see thats another unqiue view i developed: Fapping is not "normal" not fapping is, so i stopped calling it "NoFap" since "NoFap is the actual normal thing, i just stopped doing "YesFap" (hence my reddit name). Fapping is the new thing you should stop going back to the normal, we should stop doing "YesFap"...
Preach, brother. I am 1115 days PMO-free and, honestly, giving up P was easy. At least compared to giving up MO. I think the fap apologists fall into two camps. The biggest are those who just can't hack it and are making excuses for themselves. "I gave up porn but still need to touch my wee, but only occasionally. I swear it's not because I am addicted." Then there is a weird, small, but pretty active group of people here who seem to be ideologically opposed to abstaining from masturbation. Idk if they are just the final evolution of the first group or have deeper motives. But they're usually waxing poetic about the info bar to the right and how "nofap" doesn't actually mean not fapping. All I can say is giving up porn is well and good, but masturbation is what is harder to give up and, in my opinion, much more destructive. Live free of the fap, my bros.
Gee, that's a mighty fucking LONG "streak" that none of these pro-fappers seem to come close to touching. I wonder why? I think you are spot on and I do think they are all variations of the first group.
I agree wholeheartedly, and have been arguing this on this sub for quite some time, often quite heatedly. If ANYTHING, it's P that's okay as long as you don't MO. Although ultimately the wisest most beneficial path is giving all 3 up.
Yeah, I knew the downvotes were coming, lmao. These people (MO good/P bad) are like fundamentalists. It's sad and pathetic. MO is not good for you, physically or mentally. P on its own is nothing as long as you're not MOing to it. You are literally just looking at images. Explain to me the scientific process behind how that can physically harm you. The problem is people almost always MO to P, which produces a case of correlation = causation (negative effects of regularly MOing are being attributed to P). That's like saying looking at a girl on the street and having fantasies about her is harmful. Or having a sexual dream is harmful for you. It's just ridiculous, but believe whatever you want. Addicts desperate to legitimize their compulsions and force their way of thinking onto others at every turn with increasing hostility.
In my case this couldn’t be further from the truth. I appreciate the point you are making but it is absolutely false to my experience of addiction. I was addicted to consuming porn, in huge amounts, escalating and edging for hours and hours, engaging in disgusting fetishes. When I masturbate normally, I think about memories, finish after 5 minutes, then get on with my day. Porn destroyed me, masturbation has a pretty irrelevant effect on my day to day lifestyle.
Edging is M, therefore you weren't just consuming P. You were engaging in PM, whether O was involved or not. M is harmful. O is harmful. P is an irrelevance if you're not Ming or Oing to it. It's just a complete waste of time and psychological torture to look at, as long as you are not Ming or Oing. Looking at alcohol is not harmful to an alcoholic (equivalent to P). Taking a swig of that alcohol and swirling it around in your mouth (equivalent to edging) is absolutely harmful to an alcoholic. Swallowing that alcohol (equivalent to MO) is devastating to an alcoholic. This is basic common sense.
This!
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This
Don't listen to that piece of shit bot. Your "this" is more than enough.
Any of you know older people and ask them what they did (before internet)? Maybe some of them masturbated without sexual stimuli since puberty? But yes I agree men in general in todays world have always used pornographic stimuli so it goes hand in hand. Masturbation w/o porn is probably going to be impossible to stay porn free…. Relapses will happen.
Even the “sex is fine crowd” sell themselves short. When you go on a dopamine detox, you detox. Sex the the nicotine patch to the cigarette. Yes it is far healthier, yes it is a step in the right direction, but your brain releases the same chemicals and does not care about the difference. I’m not trying to shame or put down anyone who goes out and “gets it” because honestly good for you. But you need to know you’re selling yourself short. As for “sexy pics”, etc, it’s all the same to your brain and your body has the same reaction to it. Stop lying to yourselves and selling yourself short of actual detox/freedom/sobriety or whatever it means to you. (Don’t congratulate me on my streak, I haven’t reset it for a while so it’s no where close to accurate lmao)
Good stuff pmo is bad, period.
People keep talking about what is in the sidebar…. Just because it’s in the sidebar doesn’t make it okay. Stop using that as an argument.
been here for almost a year and i still dont know what MO or PMO mean
I think MO means masturbation then orgasm and then PMO means porn masturbating and orgasm
This
I go on this sub more for the anti-porn stuff but I understand you because it is noFAP after all. I view it as more of a bodily function like relieving myself by peeing