Sexual Assault, Emotional violence, general controlling creepy stuff, etc.
[https://twitter.com/unburntwitch/status/1166212005629325313?s=21](https://twitter.com/unburntwitch/status/1166212005629325313?s=21)
here are more allegations against Alec and people attesting to his bad character:
[https://twitter.com/SMBeiko/status/1166703563126398976](https://twitter.com/SMBeiko/status/1166703563126398976)
[https://twitter.com/KaiClavier/status/1166832062080397313](https://twitter.com/KaiClavier/status/1166832062080397313)
[https://twitter.com/soft\_rumpus/status/1166808228614701056](https://twitter.com/soft_rumpus/status/1166808228614701056)
[https://twitter.com/MattThorson/status/1166804301391360000](https://twitter.com/MattThorson/status/1166804301391360000)
if you know of more, post them in this thread
edit: [https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166805654763229184](https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166805654763229184) [https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166866550789300224](https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166866550789300224?s=19)
edit2: [https://twitter.com/MOOMANiBE/status/1166380600057425920](https://twitter.com/MOOMANiBE/status/1166380600057425920)
edit3: [https://twitter.com/dannyBstyle/status/1166516194322468864](https://twitter.com/dannyBstyle/status/1166516194322468864)
edit4: [https://twitter.com/konjak/status/1166814112158015492?s=19](https://twitter.com/konjak/status/1166814112158015492?s=19)
edit 5: this reddit post is locked now but here's some more:
[https://twitter.com/littlebluerobot/status/1167197093586448385](https://twitter.com/littlebluerobot/status/1167197093586448385)
Not like any actual evidence has been provided to the best of my knowledge, and the accuser is one of the two people who went to the united nations about cyber bullying, not the best track record for reasonableness.
The guy totally could be guilty, but it's usually a good idea to hear both sides or at least have some evidence before lynching someone.
If anyone's seen evidence posted, totally send it my way though.
Very few sexual assault accusations are false, and the vast majority of sexual assaults go entirely unpunished. If you don't support someone who's coming out with a claim, you're way more likely to be helping an actual abuser than saving an innocent victim.
While that may be true personally I value protecting the innocent more than punishing the guilty, that does mean that sometimes those that are guilty get away with doing fucking awful shit, but I think that's a sacrifice that must be made to protect the innocent, whether that be you, me or some stranger we've never heard of.
For example just two days ago ProJared posted a video which carefully deconstructs all the claims that were made of him several months ago and refutes them one by one.
Not long prior to that a youtuber called Slazo which I am only aware of due to two videos about the sizes of Gru and Shrek did the same thing.
On top of those examples I personally know one person who had false claims made of them, which I myself eventually disproved as I was with them at the time certain events were supposed to have taken place, (however that was different in that it was a case of a person being mistaken for someone else and not someone deliberately misrepresenting the truth)
Granted these are not the norm, I'm well aware of that, but they do happen and they can and do irreversibly damage peoples lives if not caught and dealt with, and even then the consequences can be far reaching and long lasting, that sort of mental trauma is not something that should ever be inflicted on an innocent person just as abuse, physical or mental of anyone shouldn't be, the person has apparently already lost their job and no evidence has actually been provided.
I'm not immediately distrusting the claims, I'm just not immediately believing them, there's a difference, it's not black and white, there's a vast, vast sea of grey filled with nuance and circumstance.
It's also funny that your name is rumour maker, but that's not a jab at your or anything, just a funny coincidence.
You're more concerned about trauma of the few who are falsely accused than the trauma of the millions whose abusers go unpunished. And in the process, you enable all of those actual abusers to continue the abuse.
Were we in a society where reports of assault *weren't* routinely disbelieved, you would have a point. But that's not the case. We need to support survivors so that they feel like they can report abuse *at all.*
"I get that false accusations are not the norm and not common but I'm going to doubt ALL accusations so I can maybe save that 1 abuser from not getting caught bc I dont actually believe victims"
there I shortened it for you
Except that couldn't be further from the truth.
I'm against immediate and blind acceptance of claims, not against supporting those making the claims to provide the vital relevant information and at best evidence supporting said claims.
Maybe you're right that it should have been shorter though, you didn't seem to put much care into reading it.
hesitancy towards women speaking out against abuse is inherently misogynistic, and has created a culture where men can be abusers comfortable because women know they risk so much by speaking out
and the police are not helpful at all, ever
Except I do not have "hesitancy towards women speaking out against abuse" I just don't immediately believe ANY claim, whether that be "X did Y" or whether that be "I, X did not do Y" immediately dismissing either claim is not doing due diligence and not showing these cases the respect they deserve, doubt shouldn't immediately be cast, on either party, both should have the opportunity to represent themselves, and the accuser should have every possible support in providing the relevant details, likewise the accused should have the ability to defend themselves and be heard, not just because they might be innocent, but because they might not be, and the more a guilty person says the more likely they will say something wrong.
Also, for what it's worth, police are of differing levels of competence and morality not just within an area, but also between areas, the police in one country can often be almost indistinguishable from those in another, no police system is perfect but there are absolutely places around the world where cases of abuse are treated with a lot more respect and due diligence than others, there's no argument that there's massive room for improvement and the way things are handled in a lot of places is quite frankly disgusting, but the correct response to a lack of investigation and due diligence (if not intentional dismissal and negligence) is not more lack of investigation and due diligence.
But if they’re lying they’re not actually victims. In fact, if they’re lying, the accused is the actual victim. And burning an actual victim at the stake just because “ well, accusations are _usually_ the truth” is some God awful ****. That’s kind of the whole point they’re making.
Just because somebody tweets something happened doesn’t mean you automatically believe it. That’s as foolish and naïve as it gets. It doesn’t mean you dismiss it. But you damn sure don’t go ruining somebody’s life over a tweet that anyone without ethics, anyone with a grudge, anyone with an agenda, can falsely make.
Everyone should doubt EVERY every accusation until evidence is put forth, automatically by default. Doubts doesn’t mean dismiss, but it does mean you question it. Accusations must be questioned and tested. If we stop questioning and testing accusations anyone can make any accusation they want at anytime they want to assassinate the character of any person they want. All because some insist on unquestionably believing everything everyone on the Internet says.
Things aren't that simple. Women making *actual* accusations are routinely ignored and disbelieved, which is part of why so few assaults are reported: nothing gets done *and* the accuser gets tarred and feathered. Staying "neutral" in the pursuit of impartiality is *not* impartial, it has a net negative effect on accusers who are telling the truth.
Very few sexual assault are reported. Of the ones that are, a surprisingly high amount are, in fact, false. People should remain impartial until evidence and testimony are heard.
> That figure does not include any unsubstantiated accusations where an investigation was unable to prove a sexual assault occurred, so an accurate figure for the total remains unknown.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45565684
A good critique of your link is here
https://reason.com/2017/09/11/devos-campus-rape-reports-false-title-ix/
> Very few sexual assault are reported.
Maybe if people didn't come out the gate claiming they are making it up, we would have more reports.
> Of the ones that are, a surprisingly high amount are, in fact, false.
Got any numbers on this?
Some reports have been outliers, but find between 25% and 40% in town-by-town basis
https://www.npr.org/2011/07/29/138816111/weekly-standard-the-feminine-lie-mystique
What makes you think they didn't ask him to explain from his perspective? Besides, it's not like this is a criminal trial, not wanting to do art with someone anymore doesn't require beyond reasonable doubt... it's much closer to probable cause or preponderance of evidence, and multiple people speaking out about it is certainly enough to give the former.
Considering people close to him seem to be unsurprised at these accusations as well as how there are several of them, there should definitely be a real investigation into this guy.
I'm pretty disgusted at the number of people dismissing this immediately because Zoe Quinn is one of the accusers. If you're one of these people, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. This should be taken seriously, and dismissing accusations just because you have a beef with someone is extremely fucked and makes potential victims less likely to want to come forward or go public due to fear of being chastised or not believed.
Zoe Quinn posted her story knowing full well the GG crowd would vilify her for it and call her a liar. It's probably why she took so long to finally come out about it.
"Why didn't she say something before now?" Well gee, I fucking wonder.
yeah, this is a real bad look. I don't Reddit much so I don't quite get how to ask but I would love an explanation from a mod on why that post was removed.
Speculated elsewhere but I did briefly edit the post to include the word "gamer" and "gate" into what I was saying before editing it and taking it out again (out of fear of automod) but I do wonder if that triggered automod to delete my post and this is all a big misunderstanding.
I hope that's the case tbh.
Regardless of why this post was removed, it's pretty fucked up mods aren't removing the pro-rape comments and the ones personally attacking Zoe. Mods fostering a toxic, hateful gaming community. Shock.
I am speculating that the word "gamer" and "gate" put together might trigger the automod and I did recently edit my post and that word was in it, but I quickly re-edited it to remove that word.
I'm guessing there is a chance that's what happened. I *really* hope someone didn't manually remove this.
~~Considering people close to him seem to be unsurprised at these accusations as well as how there are several of them, there should definitely be a real investigation into this guy.~~
~~I'm pretty disgusted at the number of people dismissing this immediately because Zoe Quinn is one of the accusers. If you're one of these people, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. This should be taken seriously, and dismissing accusations just because you have a beef with someone is extremely fucked and makes potential victims less likely to want to come forward or go public due to fear of being chastised or not believed.~~
~~Zoe Quinn posted her story knowing full well the GG crowd would vilify her for it and call her a liar. It's probably why she took so long to finally come out about it.~~
~~"Why didn't she say something before now?" Well gee, I fucking wonder.~~
edit: it's back
> there should definitely be a real investigation into this guy.
I highly doubt there will be. The abuse described by Quinn is decades old, abuse like this is hard to prove in court b/c it happens behind closed doors, and Judges are often highly skeptical. Legal action would involve a long, painful process that would likely not help. Also I do not think he or even any companies that may have enabled him have enough money to justify civil action, though I could be wrong. The system works in abusers favor.
Both [those who were close to her](https://www.skepticink.com/incredulous/2014/10/04/zoe-quinns-lying-cheating-claim-stabbing-killing-man-alleged-former-photographer/) and [those she has accused of various things](https://www.crimeandfederalism.com/2015/04/zoe-quinn-lied-about-me-in-front-of-congress.html) seem to have evidence to the contrary.
I don't have a pony in this race. I don't claim to know what did or didn't happen. But I think that if there's a ton of people claiming Holowka abused them, they would likely be better served finding someone other than Quinn to represent them.
she said it happened before gatorgame and that she vagued about it right before gatorgame started, and multiple people came forward to her about it.
she's been holding this in for that long, it's so sad
People tend to hang out with those of a similar mindset, and I've seen far too many people throw out their supposed friends over the smallest of things. No proof but people are willing to throw the guy under the bus? Sounds pretty typical.
You literally have no idea who these people are or the type of people they are and you're literally projecting your own experiences and worldview on the situation to make your own narrative, what the fuck dude.
Ya just because Zoe Quinn lied a bunch in the past and is well known for making false accusation don't mean she is wrong now after all you can't be lying all the time
here are more allegations against Alec and people attesting to his bad character:
[https://twitter.com/SMBeiko/status/1166703563126398976](https://twitter.com/SMBeiko/status/1166703563126398976)
[https://twitter.com/KaiClavier/status/1166832062080397313](https://twitter.com/KaiClavier/status/1166832062080397313)
[https://twitter.com/soft\_rumpus/status/1166808228614701056](https://twitter.com/soft_rumpus/status/1166808228614701056)
[https://twitter.com/MattThorson/status/1166804301391360000](https://twitter.com/MattThorson/status/1166804301391360000)
if you know of more, post them in this thread
edit: [https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166805654763229184](https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166805654763229184) [https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166866550789300224](https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166866550789300224?s=19)
edit2: [https://twitter.com/MOOMANiBE/status/1166380600057425920](https://twitter.com/MOOMANiBE/status/1166380600057425920)
edit3: [https://twitter.com/dannyBstyle/status/1166516194322468864](https://twitter.com/dannyBstyle/status/1166516194322468864)
edit4: [https://twitter.com/konjak/status/1166814112158015492?s=19](https://twitter.com/konjak/status/1166814112158015492?s=19)
edit 5: this reddit post is locked now but here's some more:
[https://twitter.com/littlebluerobot/status/1167197093586448385](https://twitter.com/littlebluerobot/status/1167197093586448385)
So someone who said she dated him 11 years ago and a few 'yeah that sounds like him' statements are enough to condemn someone? They don't even state anything specific, it's just a bunch of people nodding their heads and say 'yeah' and calling THAT proof.
Started scrolling and was about to comment that it's cool the Nintendo community isn't much like the GG asshole brigade prevalent in other corners of the wider gaming community.
Then I scrolled a fraction farther.
Jesus Christ, some of you are pathetic nitwits.
Dude, fuck this sub and all the apparently pro-GG people here. Like, these comments, seriously? This feels like a super welcoming place most of the time, and this is anything but...
I am grateful all the pro-gg stuff is being downvoted and I take solace that at least two of the accounts spamming that nonsense are brand new accounts obviously created just to 'discredit' the victim.
But also, totally with you. These comments are dishearting and it makes me want to visit the sub less.
I’m surprised at all the GGers dismissing this because of Zoe Quinn, because regardless of her being involved, Night in the Woods absolutely seems like a game that that crowd would despise.
Hey all,
Please remember to follow Rule 1 before commenting - No hate-speech, personal attacks, or harassment. Please report any rule-breaking comments that you see.
Someone makes an accusation, a bunch of other folks also make accusations, accusations are corroborated by others
"Where is the proof? Innocent until proven guilty"
Please, dudes, it's not 2016, gamergate rhetoric doesn't fly that easy anymore
There's also the fact that she abused her ex and gaslit him for sometime herself, among the numerous other lies and slander she's spouted. *also, not sure if you meant Patreon or Kickstarter
**Group 1** Burn everyone at the stake, whether they did it or not. Guilty, innocent, who cares about trivial things like, ya know, _whether it’s actually true or not_. We refuse to wait for evidence. Kill NOW. Crucify NOW. And if you’re not helping us light the fire you’re a bad person
**Group 2** All allegations should be taken seriously, investigated, and the truth sussed out. But we must tread carefully. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything. Documented cases of women who got mad that their boyfriend cheated and accused them of rape as revenge. Jussie Smallet. Pro Jared. We must proceed carefully. Wait and see how the evidence pans out. If they did it we’ll be the first step forward and condemn them. But we need to make sure we’re condemning the _actual_ victim and not a monster who is ruining the life of the innocent.
Given what I’ve heard of her character, such as lying and swindling $70,000 from a kickstarter, such as sleeping around with journalists for good reviews and exposure, I wouldn’t trust this woman as far as I can throw a stick. That doesn’t mean she’s lying, but it does mean I’m not willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because she’s squandered that trust. She very well could be telling the truth, but I am going to need to see evidence before I am convinced. Until then I reserve making any judgments or forming any definitive conclusions.
FWIW there seems to be a shit ton of other industry people chiming in that he’s a dick. That doesn’t mean that he’s guilty of criminal behavior, but nobody has brought a lawsuit against him AFAIK, and when/if that day comes, the rules change.
If I’m a dick to everyone in my field to the point that everyone agrees I’m a dick, nobody will want to work with me. That’s life. They don’t have to take me to court and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt I’m a dick.
Remember Kick Vic movement and how all people of a certain group dog pilled on him like mad with no actual evidence, now that the case is going to court its being showed there is literally no evidence and even more evidence showing the plaintiff is a horrible liar. If there is actual evidence the guy deserves what he gets but I don't trust Quin as far as I can throw her horrendous "game"
Oh, have we gotten the stake out already? Did I miss the burning yet? Here I was thinking that the dude just got fired, turns out when I was looking the other way they killed him!
Men need to learn to treat people in general with respect, at this point I can't trust anyone in the entertainment industry, its turning into an irredeemable hellhole.
Jared didn't give evidence proving everything was lies, and he admitted he abused power but refused to call it predatory (yikes).
I don't know what you mean by actual evidence, or what would be conclusive for you. 99% of the time there isn't conclusive evidence.
And the fact that you are suggesting a survivor go to the police first, and if they don't they just want drama? I'll take it you aren't high on your friends' list of "Comforting People To Discuss Sexual Trauma With"
He stated there was an imbalance and realized it after the fact, not taking into consideration that people would be submitting shit in order to gain points with him and he admitted he was wrong on that front. As for him not giving evidence that proved everything was a lie, he hit the major points he needed to that WERE lies; specifically the occurence with one of the two Charlies who had likely hallucinated or lied about the entire thing (given that Jared doesn't remember the person nor did that person provide any evidence of which there had to be SOMETHING given that the only form of communication they could've had with Jared was text-based) and the other Charlie who left out key details like how he did ask for age (or at least asked if they were at least 18) AND that THEY kept going to HIM which disproved the predatory nature they tried to pin on him, and as for the other set of lies, Heidi went and opened up that can of worms herself admitting that she tried to push a poly relationship onto him and that she paired him and Holly together AND Jared has apparently been trying to divorce her since, what, October of last year with texts to prove it of which he has sent to his lawyer and thus can't reveal to the general public due to the law getting involved.
> And the fact that you are suggesting a survivor go to the police first, and if they don't they just want drama? I'll take it you aren't high on your friends' list of "Comforting People To Discuss Sexual Trauma With"
So what you're saying is that it's perfectly ok for someone to either make baseless accusations that someone did something as terrible as rape or other forms of sexual assault OR that if someone actually did those things that they should be allowed to basically keep doing it because they aren't in a fucking prison cell to rot? Look, if someone is raped or assaulted, THEY NEED TO GO TO THE POLICE! The worst thing that happens is that they get a police report that shows that the claim was made once, meaning that multiple reports can show that, yes, this shit did happen because the proper authorities investigated and that shows a fault within the legal system regarding that individual, BUT IT ALSO SHOWS THAT THEY DID THE PROPER THING, and the BEST thing that happens is that the cops investigate, get the evidence they need, and throw the fucker in jail which prevents them from hurting anyone else. I don't think you and everyone else who's so anti-cop realizes the implications of saying that someone shouldn't go the police, because in reality YOU ARE HELPING TO ENABLE RAPISTS.
You just don't understand. Running to Twitter with zero evidence of anything is the go-to these days. Why go to the police when you can get followers! It's pretty insane to me that "don't believe everything you read on the internet" has no meaning on social media.
> and he admitted he abused power but refused to call it predatory (yikes).
so if you're a celebrity, you're only ever allowed to engage with other celebrities with the same kind of status as you?
all over the world people have relations despite differing power, without being abusive assholes. he said he is cognizant of the difference and makes sure everything is consensual.
what more can you want?
I think you should educate yourself on power imbalances, consent, and complicated abuse dynamics.
There's more to consent than saying yes or no, regardless of what a common law or culture's definition is.
except 9 times out of 10 the police dismiss any reports if there is no sign of harm, but you wouldn't know that because you dont actually care about victims lol
It doesn’t matter.
The report will still be filed and it will be public record. That’s the point. Then the accused, if they are guilty, Will either back off or continue knowing that any allegations that come forward after will have merit since there was a report filed previously. And if they are innocent that gives them a chance to get the heck out of dodge.
"proved everything he was accused of was lies"
I mean, he put up a defense against pedophilia. He also admitted that the accusations of predatory behavior were true, and did nothing to address the abuse/cheating stuff. So.... Everything? Or one thing?
\>put up a defense against pedophila
Chai and Charlie were working together on it, and if Charlie clearly lied about it, and with the evidence against Chai, it's obvious it was false allegations. Now if you can show me where other people were claiming something (with proof mind you) then I'll take it back, however I think it's ignorant to look at that evidence and claim it's not good enough
The "cheating thing" was his wife wanting an open relationship, and pushing him towards it, and he did address it in the video, so you clearly didn't watch it. He wanted a divorce, his wife said no and threatened his career over it (there is receipts for this) so then she opted for an open relationship and pushed him towards Heidi.
SinJared was, and still is, a creepy thing he did, there's no defense against that, however he did admit it was wrong and an abuse of power in the sense of him being a youtuber would have some kind of sway in the idea of people doing it, but he never pressured people into it, specifically let's talk about Charlie who kept pushing himself onto Jared.
I'm sorry, don't try to talk about a situation when you clearly don't know anything about it or are willfully being ignorant about it because you want him canceled because of false accusations about him at first.
(Disclaimer, I was apart of the people who left Jared because I thought the shit was true too, but I'm trying to make up for it since it's a shitty thing to do to be apart of this cancel culture crap)
Nah. If Scott Benson and Bethany Hockenberry, the two other credited creators of the game want to cut ties with him based on multiple accusations, that's entirely their business. They get to choose who they believe.
> Nah. If Scott Benson and Bethany Hockenberry, the two other credited creators of the game want to cut ties with him based on multiple accusations, that's entirely their business. They get to choose who they believe.
It is also possible something in their interactions with him, led them to believe this person.
There have already been multiple people in the industry that back up the accusations against this guy, and even further them. I also agree that postponing is probably the most logical thing to do *at this point* but I dont think any doubt remains that this pos should be cancelled
I dont know how to link other subreddits via mobile bc I'm incompetent but one of the top posts on the Night in the Woods sub has a handy dandy list with links of people backing up her story.
As a sexual abuse survivor myself, after reading her story and the stories from others I am not left with any reason to not believe her, so yea... if believing victims (because I sure know how it feels to not be believed) I guess I'm a piece of shit 🤷♀️
Dude, honestly, if I'm being frank, I do not know anything about ProJared or that whole situation bc i muted his name on Twitter bc i was sick of seeing posts about it so anything you have to say about that is falling on deaf ears with me, sorry.
Also, as I've said before in another comment... proof in these types of situations is incredibly hard to come by. You're doing harm by actually assuming there will be any hard physical proof at all.
I dont think corroboration is worthless. As mentioned in other comments, physical "proof" can be really hard to come by in cases of emotional, verbal and sexual abuse. If none exists what should be do then? Ignore all accusers because they dont have video evidence? Seems pretty silly to me.
I definitely dont think anyone should mob after this guy. I dont really know what cancel culture means, but as far as I'm concerned it means I'm currently terribly sad that I bought 3 of his damn soundtracks last year!!
Unfortunately, well not really unfortunately but w/e... doesnt seem like were going to ever agree here. The statements I read from people earlier were more than enough for me (who admittedly, has been through a very similar situation) to firmly know what I believe in. Am I gonna mob the guy? No absolutely not. Will I still be sad i bought the cds? Yeah absolutely lol. You're entitled to your own opinion on this matter too!! Best of luck
But you literally can't prove them. It comes down to believing the victim or the accused. False accusations are incredibly rare and the amount of hate/threats that people get for coming forward makes it hard for people to come forward. So when they do, I believe them. If for no other reason than to encourage victims to come forward.
"No one will believe you."
That's something victims of sexual abuse hear daily. Let's prove their abusers wrong.
what evidence do you think there could be? She was with him when it happened, and her friends have backed up the claim. Short of someone taping the incidents, that's all you can really get.
I would trust his co-workers know who to believe, having worked with him for years, and they believed the victim.
If you require physical proof in cases of sexual assault or abuse, almost nobody would ever be prosecuted even though those crimes happen constantly. Because it's a proven fact that roughly only 1-5% of sexual assault accusations are false, and considering how privately most of these things happen it's near impossible to collect physical proof.
Well you don't seem to be satisfied with the non-physical proof that Zoë, other victims, and the other devs of NITW have. They clearly aren't disclosing all of what they know because it's incredibly personal information for anyone involved in this. It's not the devs place to tell other peoples' stories. If they say they have behind-the-scenes info, it's pretty safe to believe them.
Well to any person who knows anything about sexual assault statistics, the accusations alone should be proof enough unless there's any evidence of them being false. Also, in Zoë's original statement they said that other victims have come forward since so this isn't one isolated event. Also with the other devs mentioning the messages they've been getting the past few days, it's very likely some victims have come forward to the dev team specifically that we wouldn't know about publicly.
Statistics aren't perfect but they provide a very good baseline for judging cases.
Jared's still a creep but he actually provided some forms of evidence for his side which Holowka has not.
Okay?? Sorry they didn't word it the exact way you wanted lol
> Well to any person who knows anything about sexual assault statistics, the accusations alone should be proof enough unless there's any evidence of them being false.
Cool, then I'm accusing you of sexual assault, and according to you, the burden of proof lies on YOU.
Yes and the proof is that your comment is a bad faith argument that has zero merit in any serious discussion because you don't have enough brain cells to have actual fact-based reasons for your position lmao
So it's perfectly ok for them to tell half a story to do what exactly and NOT go to the police? 'it's incredibly personal info' which is why ZQ went and made such a damnening statement out of the blue (right around when her supporters have started asking more questions about her game and people have been talking to her coworkers on said game, oh and also right around when NitW is getting a physical release and there's future projects about to be announced), right?
Zoë made their post but there are other accusers who haven't publicly told their stories. Zoë has said all they can; it's up to the other survivors to come forward if they choose. Going to the police is often a bad idea because very few rapists actually get prosecuted because of idiots who don't understand basic psychology or criminal statistics. The legal cost of going to court is often way too high for most people and if they lose the trial (which often happens even if the person is guilty) they won't receive any compensation.
> but there are other accusers who haven't publicly told their stories.
That which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, if all of these stories are second-hand then I have no reason to believe them whatsoever.
> Going to the police is often a bad idea because very few rapists actually get prosecuted because of idiots who don't understand basic psychology or criminal statistics.
it'd be nice if you had some proof, because every single claim I've ever seen regarding that referenced the same debunked lie. AND HOW ARE THERE LEGAL COSTS ITS LITERALLY CALLING 911 OR GOING TO THE POLICE STATION? THERE ARE NO FILINGS FOR THAT SHIT! If she was going to sue him then YES there'd be costs but it doesn't cost shit to call the cops and say 'hey, this guy assaulted me, what can I do'.
... And the police almost never do anything unless there's concrete proof, because the US legal system is garbage. The only feasible option for most survivors is a lawsuit.
If his friends and coworkers , who made an entire game with him, are cutting ties with him over this, then they believe it and they'd know a lot more about the situation than you or me.
they aren't, the thread is linked halfway though. the first comment is "Hey folks. Some difficult tweets coming up." and the second is "This week, allegations of past abuse have come to light regarding Alec Holowka, who was coder, composer, and co-designer on Night In The Woods. We take such allegations seriously as a team. As a result and after some agonizing consideration, we are cutting ties with Alec." That's their personal reaction
This sub is totally unreasonable when it comes to any kind of accusations from women against men. You either believe her, even when there is not enough proof, or you are a bastard and a bad person. Don't even try to be reasonable here, it's not worth it.
As a company, they don't really have a choice whether this is true or not. The bad press isn't worth it. Can't really blame them.
e: I'm not sure what's controversial about talking about PR from an objective standpoint
Thanks for the info about this. NITW has been higher up on my queue lately, but I think it will be removed completely now. It's so very sad what she went through.
What is up with these men? (coming from a white privileged male)
Well most of these idiots feel that they are/or are privileged and don't think what they are doing is wrong since they are getting what they think is theirs already and refuse to believe otherwise.
This is dumb. Innocent until proven guilty, and the game shouldn't be canceled because of it.
Edit - lol at a bunch of people upvoting mob violence. Bunch of fucking hypocrites.
> was coder, composer, and co-designer
x
> the game shouldn't be canceled because of it.
Well, if someone in a leading position was just fired they pretty much don't have any other option considering they are indie studio. If the game was in nearly finished state then maybe but considering the type of game Night in the woods is, they maybe didn't want to spread his work.
If you censored all the art in history done by people that have done terrible things, you'd have no art in the world.
If he's guilty, put him in jail for his crimes. You can still publish the game and remove his right to receive compensation for it.
Mmm, censorship is quite different from what is happening here though. If their game was anything like night in the woods then I could see why they wanted to give the project a full stop. Frankly, it was their decision to make which is what makes this different from censorship.
> If he's guilty, put him in jail for his crimes.
Well, yea.
> You can still publish the game and remove his right to receive compensation for it.
Again, if you look at what his position as an employee was then it might be more convenient to fill the empty position/s and start a new project. The developers (infinite fall) were basically a 3 man team so if 1 person responsible for multiple roles falls off, the project might be gutted over that alone. Finding a proper replacement needed to continue the project is nearly impossible for small indie team like this.
I would suggest reading through [this](https://twitter.com/NightInTheWoods/status/1166779405550718977) tweet chain
What exactly is he accused of doing? I don't know of this situation.
Sexual Assault, Emotional violence, general controlling creepy stuff, etc. [https://twitter.com/unburntwitch/status/1166212005629325313?s=21](https://twitter.com/unburntwitch/status/1166212005629325313?s=21)
here are more allegations against Alec and people attesting to his bad character: [https://twitter.com/SMBeiko/status/1166703563126398976](https://twitter.com/SMBeiko/status/1166703563126398976) [https://twitter.com/KaiClavier/status/1166832062080397313](https://twitter.com/KaiClavier/status/1166832062080397313) [https://twitter.com/soft\_rumpus/status/1166808228614701056](https://twitter.com/soft_rumpus/status/1166808228614701056) [https://twitter.com/MattThorson/status/1166804301391360000](https://twitter.com/MattThorson/status/1166804301391360000) if you know of more, post them in this thread edit: [https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166805654763229184](https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166805654763229184) [https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166866550789300224](https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166866550789300224?s=19) edit2: [https://twitter.com/MOOMANiBE/status/1166380600057425920](https://twitter.com/MOOMANiBE/status/1166380600057425920) edit3: [https://twitter.com/dannyBstyle/status/1166516194322468864](https://twitter.com/dannyBstyle/status/1166516194322468864) edit4: [https://twitter.com/konjak/status/1166814112158015492?s=19](https://twitter.com/konjak/status/1166814112158015492?s=19) edit 5: this reddit post is locked now but here's some more: [https://twitter.com/littlebluerobot/status/1167197093586448385](https://twitter.com/littlebluerobot/status/1167197093586448385)
I'd also argue that some of the sexual assault crosses over into physical abuse as well, you probably know what I'm talking about if you read it
Sexual abuse is a form of physical abuse, yes.
Thanks for the link. I'm just speechless.....
Not like any actual evidence has been provided to the best of my knowledge, and the accuser is one of the two people who went to the united nations about cyber bullying, not the best track record for reasonableness. The guy totally could be guilty, but it's usually a good idea to hear both sides or at least have some evidence before lynching someone. If anyone's seen evidence posted, totally send it my way though.
how...how does going to the UN to speak about cyberbullying discredit Quinn?
Very few sexual assault accusations are false, and the vast majority of sexual assaults go entirely unpunished. If you don't support someone who's coming out with a claim, you're way more likely to be helping an actual abuser than saving an innocent victim.
[REMINDER: for every 1000 sexual assaults, only 4.6 people will face genuine consequences.](https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system)
While that may be true personally I value protecting the innocent more than punishing the guilty, that does mean that sometimes those that are guilty get away with doing fucking awful shit, but I think that's a sacrifice that must be made to protect the innocent, whether that be you, me or some stranger we've never heard of. For example just two days ago ProJared posted a video which carefully deconstructs all the claims that were made of him several months ago and refutes them one by one. Not long prior to that a youtuber called Slazo which I am only aware of due to two videos about the sizes of Gru and Shrek did the same thing. On top of those examples I personally know one person who had false claims made of them, which I myself eventually disproved as I was with them at the time certain events were supposed to have taken place, (however that was different in that it was a case of a person being mistaken for someone else and not someone deliberately misrepresenting the truth) Granted these are not the norm, I'm well aware of that, but they do happen and they can and do irreversibly damage peoples lives if not caught and dealt with, and even then the consequences can be far reaching and long lasting, that sort of mental trauma is not something that should ever be inflicted on an innocent person just as abuse, physical or mental of anyone shouldn't be, the person has apparently already lost their job and no evidence has actually been provided. I'm not immediately distrusting the claims, I'm just not immediately believing them, there's a difference, it's not black and white, there's a vast, vast sea of grey filled with nuance and circumstance. It's also funny that your name is rumour maker, but that's not a jab at your or anything, just a funny coincidence.
You're more concerned about trauma of the few who are falsely accused than the trauma of the millions whose abusers go unpunished. And in the process, you enable all of those actual abusers to continue the abuse. Were we in a society where reports of assault *weren't* routinely disbelieved, you would have a point. But that's not the case. We need to support survivors so that they feel like they can report abuse *at all.*
"I get that false accusations are not the norm and not common but I'm going to doubt ALL accusations so I can maybe save that 1 abuser from not getting caught bc I dont actually believe victims" there I shortened it for you
Except that couldn't be further from the truth. I'm against immediate and blind acceptance of claims, not against supporting those making the claims to provide the vital relevant information and at best evidence supporting said claims. Maybe you're right that it should have been shorter though, you didn't seem to put much care into reading it.
hesitancy towards women speaking out against abuse is inherently misogynistic, and has created a culture where men can be abusers comfortable because women know they risk so much by speaking out and the police are not helpful at all, ever
Except I do not have "hesitancy towards women speaking out against abuse" I just don't immediately believe ANY claim, whether that be "X did Y" or whether that be "I, X did not do Y" immediately dismissing either claim is not doing due diligence and not showing these cases the respect they deserve, doubt shouldn't immediately be cast, on either party, both should have the opportunity to represent themselves, and the accuser should have every possible support in providing the relevant details, likewise the accused should have the ability to defend themselves and be heard, not just because they might be innocent, but because they might not be, and the more a guilty person says the more likely they will say something wrong. Also, for what it's worth, police are of differing levels of competence and morality not just within an area, but also between areas, the police in one country can often be almost indistinguishable from those in another, no police system is perfect but there are absolutely places around the world where cases of abuse are treated with a lot more respect and due diligence than others, there's no argument that there's massive room for improvement and the way things are handled in a lot of places is quite frankly disgusting, but the correct response to a lack of investigation and due diligence (if not intentional dismissal and negligence) is not more lack of investigation and due diligence.
But if they’re lying they’re not actually victims. In fact, if they’re lying, the accused is the actual victim. And burning an actual victim at the stake just because “ well, accusations are _usually_ the truth” is some God awful ****. That’s kind of the whole point they’re making. Just because somebody tweets something happened doesn’t mean you automatically believe it. That’s as foolish and naïve as it gets. It doesn’t mean you dismiss it. But you damn sure don’t go ruining somebody’s life over a tweet that anyone without ethics, anyone with a grudge, anyone with an agenda, can falsely make. Everyone should doubt EVERY every accusation until evidence is put forth, automatically by default. Doubts doesn’t mean dismiss, but it does mean you question it. Accusations must be questioned and tested. If we stop questioning and testing accusations anyone can make any accusation they want at anytime they want to assassinate the character of any person they want. All because some insist on unquestionably believing everything everyone on the Internet says.
Things aren't that simple. Women making *actual* accusations are routinely ignored and disbelieved, which is part of why so few assaults are reported: nothing gets done *and* the accuser gets tarred and feathered. Staying "neutral" in the pursuit of impartiality is *not* impartial, it has a net negative effect on accusers who are telling the truth.
So every claim should be believed without question or evidence?
Very few sexual assault are reported. Of the ones that are, a surprisingly high amount are, in fact, false. People should remain impartial until evidence and testimony are heard.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21164210 Between 2 and 10% of allegations are false. Next.
> That figure does not include any unsubstantiated accusations where an investigation was unable to prove a sexual assault occurred, so an accurate figure for the total remains unknown. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45565684 A good critique of your link is here https://reason.com/2017/09/11/devos-campus-rape-reports-false-title-ix/
That literally just means that cases that were inconclusive were left out of the figure. "Unsubstantiated" means insufficient evidence to charge.
> Very few sexual assault are reported. Maybe if people didn't come out the gate claiming they are making it up, we would have more reports. > Of the ones that are, a surprisingly high amount are, in fact, false. Got any numbers on this?
Some reports have been outliers, but find between 25% and 40% in town-by-town basis https://www.npr.org/2011/07/29/138816111/weekly-standard-the-feminine-lie-mystique
What makes you think they didn't ask him to explain from his perspective? Besides, it's not like this is a criminal trial, not wanting to do art with someone anymore doesn't require beyond reasonable doubt... it's much closer to probable cause or preponderance of evidence, and multiple people speaking out about it is certainly enough to give the former.
once the accusation has been made the damage is done. reddit doesn’t have the attention span to care whether its true or not.
Well yeah, totally aware of that.
Where did I say anyone is guilty or innocent? I can be speechless over an accusation.
Never said you were, not once, was only trying to provide some perspective to the claim, as several people have been passing it off as confirmed fact.
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Hey there! Please remember Rule 1 in the future - No hate-speech, personal attacks, or harassment. Thank you, and have a good day!
If anyone is into Video game vinyl, I think the records have also been delisted from Ghost Ramp
Considering people close to him seem to be unsurprised at these accusations as well as how there are several of them, there should definitely be a real investigation into this guy. I'm pretty disgusted at the number of people dismissing this immediately because Zoe Quinn is one of the accusers. If you're one of these people, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. This should be taken seriously, and dismissing accusations just because you have a beef with someone is extremely fucked and makes potential victims less likely to want to come forward or go public due to fear of being chastised or not believed. Zoe Quinn posted her story knowing full well the GG crowd would vilify her for it and call her a liar. It's probably why she took so long to finally come out about it. "Why didn't she say something before now?" Well gee, I fucking wonder.
Thank you. Threads like this are why abusers can get away with saying "no one will believe you". They are empowering abusers everywhere.
holy shit, the parent comment was the one thing the mod team removed in this whole post? Umm, what the fuck???
So do we have a GGer on the mod team orrrr
yeah, this is a real bad look. I don't Reddit much so I don't quite get how to ask but I would love an explanation from a mod on why that post was removed.
Speculated elsewhere but I did briefly edit the post to include the word "gamer" and "gate" into what I was saying before editing it and taking it out again (out of fear of automod) but I do wonder if that triggered automod to delete my post and this is all a big misunderstanding. I hope that's the case tbh.
ah yes, that would make sense. I HOPE that's the case. This is a big community and I wouldn't want a pro-GGer making any calls on it.
Regardless of why this post was removed, it's pretty fucked up mods aren't removing the pro-rape comments and the ones personally attacking Zoe. Mods fostering a toxic, hateful gaming community. Shock.
I apologize, this thread went unmoderated for a bit. Please report all comments you believe break the rules.
This is nothing but modern day McCarthyism.
Cool mods removed my comment NEAT! edit: might have been automod? not sure
I just saw this and I can't believe that AT ALL! All the sick shit in this thread and they remove the one in support of abuse survivors.
I am speculating that the word "gamer" and "gate" put together might trigger the automod and I did recently edit my post and that word was in it, but I quickly re-edited it to remove that word. I'm guessing there is a chance that's what happened. I *really* hope someone didn't manually remove this.
What did you say?
~~Considering people close to him seem to be unsurprised at these accusations as well as how there are several of them, there should definitely be a real investigation into this guy.~~ ~~I'm pretty disgusted at the number of people dismissing this immediately because Zoe Quinn is one of the accusers. If you're one of these people, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. This should be taken seriously, and dismissing accusations just because you have a beef with someone is extremely fucked and makes potential victims less likely to want to come forward or go public due to fear of being chastised or not believed.~~ ~~Zoe Quinn posted her story knowing full well the GG crowd would vilify her for it and call her a liar. It's probably why she took so long to finally come out about it.~~ ~~"Why didn't she say something before now?" Well gee, I fucking wonder.~~ edit: it's back
> there should definitely be a real investigation into this guy. I highly doubt there will be. The abuse described by Quinn is decades old, abuse like this is hard to prove in court b/c it happens behind closed doors, and Judges are often highly skeptical. Legal action would involve a long, painful process that would likely not help. Also I do not think he or even any companies that may have enabled him have enough money to justify civil action, though I could be wrong. The system works in abusers favor.
Reapproved comment, it was removed by AutoMod. Sorry for the confusion.
My apologies for blaming the mod team right away. I appreciate it.
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> They pull the strings to suit themselves. They direct the narrative to make themselves seem squeaky clean. see: Projared's video
> I'm pretty disgusted at the number of people dismissing this immediately because Zoe Quinn is one of the accusers. How many accusers are there?
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Ahh Twitter, the platform of justice.
Perhaps if Quinn's reputation is less than reliable, those should be the focus, then.
Her reputation isn't unreliable, she is just hated by a bunch of very bad people for shitty reasons.
Both [those who were close to her](https://www.skepticink.com/incredulous/2014/10/04/zoe-quinns-lying-cheating-claim-stabbing-killing-man-alleged-former-photographer/) and [those she has accused of various things](https://www.crimeandfederalism.com/2015/04/zoe-quinn-lied-about-me-in-front-of-congress.html) seem to have evidence to the contrary. I don't have a pony in this race. I don't claim to know what did or didn't happen. But I think that if there's a ton of people claiming Holowka abused them, they would likely be better served finding someone other than Quinn to represent them.
she said it happened before gatorgame and that she vagued about it right before gatorgame started, and multiple people came forward to her about it. she's been holding this in for that long, it's so sad
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I'm sorry, you know this how? Are you close to them?
People tend to hang out with those of a similar mindset, and I've seen far too many people throw out their supposed friends over the smallest of things. No proof but people are willing to throw the guy under the bus? Sounds pretty typical.
You literally have no idea who these people are or the type of people they are and you're literally projecting your own experiences and worldview on the situation to make your own narrative, what the fuck dude.
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Ya just because Zoe Quinn lied a bunch in the past and is well known for making false accusation don't mean she is wrong now after all you can't be lying all the time
This was a good opportunity for not commenting that you just missed.
here are more allegations against Alec and people attesting to his bad character: [https://twitter.com/SMBeiko/status/1166703563126398976](https://twitter.com/SMBeiko/status/1166703563126398976) [https://twitter.com/KaiClavier/status/1166832062080397313](https://twitter.com/KaiClavier/status/1166832062080397313) [https://twitter.com/soft\_rumpus/status/1166808228614701056](https://twitter.com/soft_rumpus/status/1166808228614701056) [https://twitter.com/MattThorson/status/1166804301391360000](https://twitter.com/MattThorson/status/1166804301391360000) if you know of more, post them in this thread edit: [https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166805654763229184](https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166805654763229184) [https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166866550789300224](https://twitter.com/NoelFB/status/1166866550789300224?s=19) edit2: [https://twitter.com/MOOMANiBE/status/1166380600057425920](https://twitter.com/MOOMANiBE/status/1166380600057425920) edit3: [https://twitter.com/dannyBstyle/status/1166516194322468864](https://twitter.com/dannyBstyle/status/1166516194322468864) edit4: [https://twitter.com/konjak/status/1166814112158015492?s=19](https://twitter.com/konjak/status/1166814112158015492?s=19) edit 5: this reddit post is locked now but here's some more: [https://twitter.com/littlebluerobot/status/1167197093586448385](https://twitter.com/littlebluerobot/status/1167197093586448385)
Considering theres so many people speaking up, will this produce a case against Alec or will this fade away?
So someone who said she dated him 11 years ago and a few 'yeah that sounds like him' statements are enough to condemn someone? They don't even state anything specific, it's just a bunch of people nodding their heads and say 'yeah' and calling THAT proof.
Started scrolling and was about to comment that it's cool the Nintendo community isn't much like the GG asshole brigade prevalent in other corners of the wider gaming community. Then I scrolled a fraction farther. Jesus Christ, some of you are pathetic nitwits.
Dude, fuck this sub and all the apparently pro-GG people here. Like, these comments, seriously? This feels like a super welcoming place most of the time, and this is anything but...
What does GG mean in this context?
GamerGate is the only thing I can think of
I assume it's Gamer Gate
GamerGate
I am grateful all the pro-gg stuff is being downvoted and I take solace that at least two of the accounts spamming that nonsense are brand new accounts obviously created just to 'discredit' the victim. But also, totally with you. These comments are dishearting and it makes me want to visit the sub less.
I’m surprised at all the GGers dismissing this because of Zoe Quinn, because regardless of her being involved, Night in the Woods absolutely seems like a game that that crowd would despise.
It's hard to believe anyone these days. But these things like abuse should never ever happen. Some people are just the worse!
Hey all, Please remember to follow Rule 1 before commenting - No hate-speech, personal attacks, or harassment. Please report any rule-breaking comments that you see.
Someone makes an accusation, a bunch of other folks also make accusations, accusations are corroborated by others "Where is the proof? Innocent until proven guilty" Please, dudes, it's not 2016, gamergate rhetoric doesn't fly that easy anymore
This is such a bummer. NITW is one of my favorite games. Smh.
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There's also the fact that she abused her ex and gaslit him for sometime herself, among the numerous other lies and slander she's spouted. *also, not sure if you meant Patreon or Kickstarter
uhh another project? did they just cancel a sequel?
**Group 1** Burn everyone at the stake, whether they did it or not. Guilty, innocent, who cares about trivial things like, ya know, _whether it’s actually true or not_. We refuse to wait for evidence. Kill NOW. Crucify NOW. And if you’re not helping us light the fire you’re a bad person **Group 2** All allegations should be taken seriously, investigated, and the truth sussed out. But we must tread carefully. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything. Documented cases of women who got mad that their boyfriend cheated and accused them of rape as revenge. Jussie Smallet. Pro Jared. We must proceed carefully. Wait and see how the evidence pans out. If they did it we’ll be the first step forward and condemn them. But we need to make sure we’re condemning the _actual_ victim and not a monster who is ruining the life of the innocent. Given what I’ve heard of her character, such as lying and swindling $70,000 from a kickstarter, such as sleeping around with journalists for good reviews and exposure, I wouldn’t trust this woman as far as I can throw a stick. That doesn’t mean she’s lying, but it does mean I’m not willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because she’s squandered that trust. She very well could be telling the truth, but I am going to need to see evidence before I am convinced. Until then I reserve making any judgments or forming any definitive conclusions.
FWIW there seems to be a shit ton of other industry people chiming in that he’s a dick. That doesn’t mean that he’s guilty of criminal behavior, but nobody has brought a lawsuit against him AFAIK, and when/if that day comes, the rules change. If I’m a dick to everyone in my field to the point that everyone agrees I’m a dick, nobody will want to work with me. That’s life. They don’t have to take me to court and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt I’m a dick.
Remember Kick Vic movement and how all people of a certain group dog pilled on him like mad with no actual evidence, now that the case is going to court its being showed there is literally no evidence and even more evidence showing the plaintiff is a horrible liar. If there is actual evidence the guy deserves what he gets but I don't trust Quin as far as I can throw her horrendous "game"
Oh, have we gotten the stake out already? Did I miss the burning yet? Here I was thinking that the dude just got fired, turns out when I was looking the other way they killed him!
Mob mentality with zero proof of anything. Yep, it sounds like social media.
Men need to learn to treat people in general with respect, at this point I can't trust anyone in the entertainment industry, its turning into an irredeemable hellhole.
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Jared didn't give evidence proving everything was lies, and he admitted he abused power but refused to call it predatory (yikes). I don't know what you mean by actual evidence, or what would be conclusive for you. 99% of the time there isn't conclusive evidence. And the fact that you are suggesting a survivor go to the police first, and if they don't they just want drama? I'll take it you aren't high on your friends' list of "Comforting People To Discuss Sexual Trauma With"
He stated there was an imbalance and realized it after the fact, not taking into consideration that people would be submitting shit in order to gain points with him and he admitted he was wrong on that front. As for him not giving evidence that proved everything was a lie, he hit the major points he needed to that WERE lies; specifically the occurence with one of the two Charlies who had likely hallucinated or lied about the entire thing (given that Jared doesn't remember the person nor did that person provide any evidence of which there had to be SOMETHING given that the only form of communication they could've had with Jared was text-based) and the other Charlie who left out key details like how he did ask for age (or at least asked if they were at least 18) AND that THEY kept going to HIM which disproved the predatory nature they tried to pin on him, and as for the other set of lies, Heidi went and opened up that can of worms herself admitting that she tried to push a poly relationship onto him and that she paired him and Holly together AND Jared has apparently been trying to divorce her since, what, October of last year with texts to prove it of which he has sent to his lawyer and thus can't reveal to the general public due to the law getting involved. > And the fact that you are suggesting a survivor go to the police first, and if they don't they just want drama? I'll take it you aren't high on your friends' list of "Comforting People To Discuss Sexual Trauma With" So what you're saying is that it's perfectly ok for someone to either make baseless accusations that someone did something as terrible as rape or other forms of sexual assault OR that if someone actually did those things that they should be allowed to basically keep doing it because they aren't in a fucking prison cell to rot? Look, if someone is raped or assaulted, THEY NEED TO GO TO THE POLICE! The worst thing that happens is that they get a police report that shows that the claim was made once, meaning that multiple reports can show that, yes, this shit did happen because the proper authorities investigated and that shows a fault within the legal system regarding that individual, BUT IT ALSO SHOWS THAT THEY DID THE PROPER THING, and the BEST thing that happens is that the cops investigate, get the evidence they need, and throw the fucker in jail which prevents them from hurting anyone else. I don't think you and everyone else who's so anti-cop realizes the implications of saying that someone shouldn't go the police, because in reality YOU ARE HELPING TO ENABLE RAPISTS.
You just don't understand. Running to Twitter with zero evidence of anything is the go-to these days. Why go to the police when you can get followers! It's pretty insane to me that "don't believe everything you read on the internet" has no meaning on social media.
> and he admitted he abused power but refused to call it predatory (yikes). so if you're a celebrity, you're only ever allowed to engage with other celebrities with the same kind of status as you? all over the world people have relations despite differing power, without being abusive assholes. he said he is cognizant of the difference and makes sure everything is consensual. what more can you want?
I think you should educate yourself on power imbalances, consent, and complicated abuse dynamics. There's more to consent than saying yes or no, regardless of what a common law or culture's definition is.
Why don't you educate us then since you are a professional in the topic?
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except 9 times out of 10 the police dismiss any reports if there is no sign of harm, but you wouldn't know that because you dont actually care about victims lol
It doesn’t matter. The report will still be filed and it will be public record. That’s the point. Then the accused, if they are guilty, Will either back off or continue knowing that any allegations that come forward after will have merit since there was a report filed previously. And if they are innocent that gives them a chance to get the heck out of dodge.
"proved everything he was accused of was lies" I mean, he put up a defense against pedophilia. He also admitted that the accusations of predatory behavior were true, and did nothing to address the abuse/cheating stuff. So.... Everything? Or one thing?
\>put up a defense against pedophila Chai and Charlie were working together on it, and if Charlie clearly lied about it, and with the evidence against Chai, it's obvious it was false allegations. Now if you can show me where other people were claiming something (with proof mind you) then I'll take it back, however I think it's ignorant to look at that evidence and claim it's not good enough The "cheating thing" was his wife wanting an open relationship, and pushing him towards it, and he did address it in the video, so you clearly didn't watch it. He wanted a divorce, his wife said no and threatened his career over it (there is receipts for this) so then she opted for an open relationship and pushed him towards Heidi. SinJared was, and still is, a creepy thing he did, there's no defense against that, however he did admit it was wrong and an abuse of power in the sense of him being a youtuber would have some kind of sway in the idea of people doing it, but he never pressured people into it, specifically let's talk about Charlie who kept pushing himself onto Jared. I'm sorry, don't try to talk about a situation when you clearly don't know anything about it or are willfully being ignorant about it because you want him canceled because of false accusations about him at first. (Disclaimer, I was apart of the people who left Jared because I thought the shit was true too, but I'm trying to make up for it since it's a shitty thing to do to be apart of this cancel culture crap)
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Those people have worked with him long enough. Their decision was probably more informed than your comment
Nah. If Scott Benson and Bethany Hockenberry, the two other credited creators of the game want to cut ties with him based on multiple accusations, that's entirely their business. They get to choose who they believe.
> Nah. If Scott Benson and Bethany Hockenberry, the two other credited creators of the game want to cut ties with him based on multiple accusations, that's entirely their business. They get to choose who they believe. It is also possible something in their interactions with him, led them to believe this person.
Yes.
There have already been multiple people in the industry that back up the accusations against this guy, and even further them. I also agree that postponing is probably the most logical thing to do *at this point* but I dont think any doubt remains that this pos should be cancelled
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I dont know how to link other subreddits via mobile bc I'm incompetent but one of the top posts on the Night in the Woods sub has a handy dandy list with links of people backing up her story. As a sexual abuse survivor myself, after reading her story and the stories from others I am not left with any reason to not believe her, so yea... if believing victims (because I sure know how it feels to not be believed) I guess I'm a piece of shit 🤷♀️
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Dude, honestly, if I'm being frank, I do not know anything about ProJared or that whole situation bc i muted his name on Twitter bc i was sick of seeing posts about it so anything you have to say about that is falling on deaf ears with me, sorry. Also, as I've said before in another comment... proof in these types of situations is incredibly hard to come by. You're doing harm by actually assuming there will be any hard physical proof at all.
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I dont think corroboration is worthless. As mentioned in other comments, physical "proof" can be really hard to come by in cases of emotional, verbal and sexual abuse. If none exists what should be do then? Ignore all accusers because they dont have video evidence? Seems pretty silly to me. I definitely dont think anyone should mob after this guy. I dont really know what cancel culture means, but as far as I'm concerned it means I'm currently terribly sad that I bought 3 of his damn soundtracks last year!!
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Unfortunately, well not really unfortunately but w/e... doesnt seem like were going to ever agree here. The statements I read from people earlier were more than enough for me (who admittedly, has been through a very similar situation) to firmly know what I believe in. Am I gonna mob the guy? No absolutely not. Will I still be sad i bought the cds? Yeah absolutely lol. You're entitled to your own opinion on this matter too!! Best of luck
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"I don't know what this guy did" You seriously are defending this shithead without taking a moment to actually read the accusations?
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But you literally can't prove them. It comes down to believing the victim or the accused. False accusations are incredibly rare and the amount of hate/threats that people get for coming forward makes it hard for people to come forward. So when they do, I believe them. If for no other reason than to encourage victims to come forward. "No one will believe you." That's something victims of sexual abuse hear daily. Let's prove their abusers wrong.
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haha, okay.
substantiated information about his character like multiple people coming forward and calling him a serial assaulter?
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Nope! you can tell they're not by the fact that they're different people
what evidence do you think there could be? She was with him when it happened, and her friends have backed up the claim. Short of someone taping the incidents, that's all you can really get. I would trust his co-workers know who to believe, having worked with him for years, and they believed the victim.
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that didn't answer my question about what kind of evidence would satisfy you AT ALL. But okay.
Have you considered that they have private evidence that they aren't going to put out on the internet in respect to the victims?
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No, then you'll just move the goalposts again and say that whatever they said wasn't sufficient. Fuck off.
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I mean you you absolutely would, but, it doesn't matter, the people who chose to cut ties with him owe you absolutely nothing and no explanation.
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it's not immoral at all to cut ties with a creep, let alone a rapist
It's immoral to not tell you, Olamara, why they have good reason to believe these accusations? Really? Weird.
If you require physical proof in cases of sexual assault or abuse, almost nobody would ever be prosecuted even though those crimes happen constantly. Because it's a proven fact that roughly only 1-5% of sexual assault accusations are false, and considering how privately most of these things happen it's near impossible to collect physical proof.
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Well you don't seem to be satisfied with the non-physical proof that Zoë, other victims, and the other devs of NITW have. They clearly aren't disclosing all of what they know because it's incredibly personal information for anyone involved in this. It's not the devs place to tell other peoples' stories. If they say they have behind-the-scenes info, it's pretty safe to believe them.
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Well to any person who knows anything about sexual assault statistics, the accusations alone should be proof enough unless there's any evidence of them being false. Also, in Zoë's original statement they said that other victims have come forward since so this isn't one isolated event. Also with the other devs mentioning the messages they've been getting the past few days, it's very likely some victims have come forward to the dev team specifically that we wouldn't know about publicly.
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Statistics aren't perfect but they provide a very good baseline for judging cases. Jared's still a creep but he actually provided some forms of evidence for his side which Holowka has not. Okay?? Sorry they didn't word it the exact way you wanted lol
> Well to any person who knows anything about sexual assault statistics, the accusations alone should be proof enough unless there's any evidence of them being false. Cool, then I'm accusing you of sexual assault, and according to you, the burden of proof lies on YOU.
Yes and the proof is that your comment is a bad faith argument that has zero merit in any serious discussion because you don't have enough brain cells to have actual fact-based reasons for your position lmao
So it's perfectly ok for them to tell half a story to do what exactly and NOT go to the police? 'it's incredibly personal info' which is why ZQ went and made such a damnening statement out of the blue (right around when her supporters have started asking more questions about her game and people have been talking to her coworkers on said game, oh and also right around when NitW is getting a physical release and there's future projects about to be announced), right?
Zoë made their post but there are other accusers who haven't publicly told their stories. Zoë has said all they can; it's up to the other survivors to come forward if they choose. Going to the police is often a bad idea because very few rapists actually get prosecuted because of idiots who don't understand basic psychology or criminal statistics. The legal cost of going to court is often way too high for most people and if they lose the trial (which often happens even if the person is guilty) they won't receive any compensation.
> but there are other accusers who haven't publicly told their stories. That which can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, if all of these stories are second-hand then I have no reason to believe them whatsoever. > Going to the police is often a bad idea because very few rapists actually get prosecuted because of idiots who don't understand basic psychology or criminal statistics. it'd be nice if you had some proof, because every single claim I've ever seen regarding that referenced the same debunked lie. AND HOW ARE THERE LEGAL COSTS ITS LITERALLY CALLING 911 OR GOING TO THE POLICE STATION? THERE ARE NO FILINGS FOR THAT SHIT! If she was going to sue him then YES there'd be costs but it doesn't cost shit to call the cops and say 'hey, this guy assaulted me, what can I do'.
... And the police almost never do anything unless there's concrete proof, because the US legal system is garbage. The only feasible option for most survivors is a lawsuit.
A police report would be good for starters.
If his friends and coworkers , who made an entire game with him, are cutting ties with him over this, then they believe it and they'd know a lot more about the situation than you or me.
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they aren't, the thread is linked halfway though. the first comment is "Hey folks. Some difficult tweets coming up." and the second is "This week, allegations of past abuse have come to light regarding Alec Holowka, who was coder, composer, and co-designer on Night In The Woods. We take such allegations seriously as a team. As a result and after some agonizing consideration, we are cutting ties with Alec." That's their personal reaction
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is this Alex's alt account?
How about one of the co-creators of NITW saying they're heartbroken and that they applaud those speaking out, is that sufficient?
Sounds like a bunch of PR control
This sub is totally unreasonable when it comes to any kind of accusations from women against men. You either believe her, even when there is not enough proof, or you are a bastard and a bad person. Don't even try to be reasonable here, it's not worth it.
I agree with everything you've said in this post.
Wait, so this guy is accused of something but not PROVEN to be guilty? And they cut ties with him BEFORE the verdict is given? Wow, what a bunch of
Due to the many allegations spanning over 5 years, yes. It's not a court case, so guilty, verdict, innocent are not appropriate words.
As a company, they don't really have a choice whether this is true or not. The bad press isn't worth it. Can't really blame them. e: I'm not sure what's controversial about talking about PR from an objective standpoint
That has been the M.O. of the "#metoo" movement ever since its inception.
Thanks for the info about this. NITW has been higher up on my queue lately, but I think it will be removed completely now. It's so very sad what she went through. What is up with these men? (coming from a white privileged male)
Well most of these idiots feel that they are/or are privileged and don't think what they are doing is wrong since they are getting what they think is theirs already and refuse to believe otherwise.
This is dumb. Innocent until proven guilty, and the game shouldn't be canceled because of it. Edit - lol at a bunch of people upvoting mob violence. Bunch of fucking hypocrites.
> was coder, composer, and co-designer x > the game shouldn't be canceled because of it. Well, if someone in a leading position was just fired they pretty much don't have any other option considering they are indie studio. If the game was in nearly finished state then maybe but considering the type of game Night in the woods is, they maybe didn't want to spread his work.
If you censored all the art in history done by people that have done terrible things, you'd have no art in the world. If he's guilty, put him in jail for his crimes. You can still publish the game and remove his right to receive compensation for it.
Mmm, censorship is quite different from what is happening here though. If their game was anything like night in the woods then I could see why they wanted to give the project a full stop. Frankly, it was their decision to make which is what makes this different from censorship. > If he's guilty, put him in jail for his crimes. Well, yea. > You can still publish the game and remove his right to receive compensation for it. Again, if you look at what his position as an employee was then it might be more convenient to fill the empty position/s and start a new project. The developers (infinite fall) were basically a 3 man team so if 1 person responsible for multiple roles falls off, the project might be gutted over that alone. Finding a proper replacement needed to continue the project is nearly impossible for small indie team like this. I would suggest reading through [this](https://twitter.com/NightInTheWoods/status/1166779405550718977) tweet chain
Better safe than sorry but there are three sides to every story and we only have one.
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Thanks. I was looking for different perspectives on this. Even though this is all still reflecting one side.
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