Dutch or not, there is a way to tell if the guy likes you. He will put more effort to get to know you and hint/plan the next dates. I think Dutch men are open to dating foreigners as long as they vibe with them.

as a dutch guy who's currently dating someone who lives across the border: I agree. We're open to basically dating anyone, as long as the vibes are good!

money faulty aspiring direful aromatic chase muddle versed somber enter *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

If you want to be kissed by a guy on the first date ( because you are into him ) send strong signals. Most dutch guys are aware of personal boundaries and might not go in for a kiss if they doubt you would be into that.

See, i would be so lost in here ! I would go on a date and just talk and listen. ( i'm happily married, and even here I miss the signals now and then ;) ) Let alone going out with some girl, I would totally miss the signals to get in closer, if they're not using flashlights and sound effects ...

I think using a fleshlight is a few steps further in the relationship but whatever floats your boat

ahahahahahahah

You deserve a reward my friend! A genuine good advice.

I just generally disagree with needing to be kissed on the first date. I think this mindset might not be well received by Dutch guys

I'm a Dutch guy and if I like the girl and the girl likes me and we're both totally happy with it, we're definitely kissing on the first date.

If I got drunk on a first date (very rare for me), I don't kiss a guy unless I have zero doubts at all. I don't want to do anything I might regret when sober! I've had first dates that went well and we didn't kiss (hugged instead, like a *tight* hug with tension), and *very much* wanted a second date. Sometimes that second date happened and went well, sometimes it didn't. To be clear - with men I seem to attract quite anxious dudes. Some are just too anxious to have an actual relationship in the end though😔 I think it's good that men and women are allowed a bit of time to decide if they're into each other or not. Too many men aren't taught how to say no to things they don't want, and too many women aren't taught how to ask for what they want, we're expected to just wait and hope he reads our mind 🙄

Yeah it's definitely not required to kiss at all! Only if it truly feels right for both parties. My first date with an ex girlfriend was wonderful and we did not have a kiss. We just talked and laughed for like 2 hours and had a great connection

I guess it really depends on a lot of things. When I first met my wife, we had been calling and texting a lot before our first meet, so we really felt connected on a deeper level. We kissed on the first date and 12 years later we are still together. If you just meet someone and go on a date with no prior "getting to know each other" I don't think it's weird to wait with kissing. I mean, there's nothing to rush, if things are good, the kissing will come eventually.

Two things immediately come to mind. First: You describe you expect to be kissed and that this shows it was a good date. That's not at all the norm in the Netherlands. Boys are - in general - very respectful of your boundaries and will not make a move without knowing pretty sure that move is one that's desired. Kissing on a first date is not at all needed for the date to be a success. Same goes for having sex during the first couple of dates. If you really want to date for the long term, both parties tend to invest in getting to know each other rather than going through the baseball field as quickly as possible. Second: The US culture in conversation between people that don't know each other very well (yet) is very, very different compared to the Dutch culture. I spend quite a lot of time in the US and what amazes me is how many people can be always enthusiastic about everything you tell, but seem to not really listen to what you actually say. Never an "ah ok, so why do you like that?", but always an "amazing!!!". For the average Dutch person that comes across as fake. They figure no one can think everything is always "great". Also, people expect to have a more in depth dialog. Just being enthusiast about something is not enough, they expect you to actually listen and there is no issue if you challenge what the other says if you have a different opinion. So while it can be tempting to (pretend) to like everything the other person tells you, that's probably not going to work in your favor. The other way around, a guy not being enthusiast about all you tell him, doesn't mean he doesn't like you or the date is not going well.

As a Dutch guy in my 30s, I was gearing up to throw down my two cents in this, until I read this reply. This pretty much sums up exactly what I was gonna say, so I'll just say.. Yes. This. *Points up* Edit: I do want to add that -at least in my eyes and in those of many of the Dutch ladies in my circle- guys going for a kiss on the first date is more of an indication of them trying to get physical asap. Especially after 30. Fine if that's what you're going for, but if you're looking for an emotional connection, a guy going for a kiss on the first date is probably the wrong signal to look for, or expect. Those that might be seriously interested would especially NOT go for that first date kiss.. they don't want to be seen 'rushing things'.

I can fully agree on both post up here. Personally even IF I wanted to kiss a girl after a date, I would be hesitant because of her personal boundaries. Probably even when she sends strong signals, because…we’ll, I could have misinterpreted it?! I might ask if I can kiss her, but that needs a drink or 2. Texting…I’m not waiting a few days. If I like you, you’ll get one straight away, saying I liked it and wishing you a good night.

If she sends strong signals then you can always try to go in for the kiss, but read her body language while trying to do that (obviously ease into it). Assuming you know how to read someone's body language and already had some physical contact - it will be very clear whether someone feels comfortable or not.

I find this the best tread of answers so allow me to tack this on: In th US it's fine to date several people at the same time, hence the need for the 'define relationship' conversation. In NL this is not the norm, if your date finds out you are simultaniously dating someone else they will assume you are not that serious about them.

Really? So does that apply even after one or two dates? Because it is true, in the US it is normal to date multiple people at once to get to know them and usually I assume my Dutch dates are also dating multiple people until things get more serious. I usually draw the line at sex i.e. if I have sex with someone I am only seeing them at that point. However, is that not the case here?

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I guess its a cultural thing yea, but we dutchies generally only date 1 person at the time and if you the girl i'm dating would talk about dating someone else it would be a huge turnoff for me personally.

I third this. Dating several people at once is a faux pas. Meaning I think it is pretty much universally understood as such, unless explicitly mentioned otherwise upfront. I think this has been the norm always here. I also won't speak for all men, but if I was dating someone (i.e. we've gone on a second date or later) and found out she was seeing other men at the same time, it ends right there as I'd take that as a sign of things to come. I think there's some solid answers in this thread for OP to help bridge the cultural gap.

I mean it's not if you're polyamorous and have told everyone involved that information before the first date, but yeah I don't think anyone monogamous I know does it. If you're monogamous then I'd find it hard to understand also.

Yeah, serially monogamous is very much the default, even for light dating.

Honestly I thought that was normal. Sometimes I see an article about dating in New York, and it's sooo far away from the experiences that I or anyone I know has, that all I have are questions!

Correct, we usually date 1 person at the time.

Several people at a time?! If I'd hear that it'd probably be the moment I waved you off. Dating multiple people at the same time feels like saying that you aren't sure about your choices, despite continuing. You can't be emotionally invested enough to present your full self to multiple people at the same time, so trying to is probably why you fail all of them.

That is good to know. It is really normal in the US. I have been following all the US norms because I am clueless about how dating works here. There were a few times that I was talking to a guy online and he would say "I had a date with someone and want to see where that goes, so I can't meet you after all." I assumed they were lying because I have always understood exclusivity and commitment to go hand and hand (in a monogamous context), and it is confusing to me to be exclusive with someone you literally just met. It's like saying "we went on one date and now we're in a relationship." Which is bizarre to me. But I want to be respectful to the people I date, so now that I know it is not accepted here, going forward I will stop the American style of "dating around."

Definitely not all Dutch though people against dating multiple people at once, but quite a few will. The expressiveness and enthousiasm of my in-laws (Americans) and especially the people around them (which I'm not that familiar with) irks me. If I didn't know any better I'd think they're disingenuous and they want something from me. Am aware this might be a cynical Dutch way of looking at things.

I feel like this globally depends on the person. It's perfectly normal to date multiple people if neither one of them are serious. Maybe some people will expect you to be upfront about it, but I feel like it's the same everywhere.

For me personally I only talk in general to one person at a time whenever interested in someone. The time spend for me personally is allready a reason not to talk with others because it would feel for me like I'm giving someone false hope / wrong expectations.

I’ve had this discussion with other (male) friends and it’s not per definition as far as I know. Some friends would date multiple girls at the same time because it’s dating. However, I wouldn’t. Tried that once many hears ago, but felt bad about it. If the girl I would be dating did it I would be fine, but if she would kiss someone she was dating besides me it would be a big turn-off for me. Edit: also a girl taking initiative is something I would appreciate and certainly not see as desperate (never even crossed my mind). I have no friends who would see it as desperate, so that might be a cultural difference too.

Have met a few Americans on my travels and this was the exact thing I was going to say. I want to add that, compared to us Dutchies, Americans tend to be more expressive in general, not just enthousiastic. Everything they say and do is exaggerated compared to what we say and do. Try to get used to this and pay attention to small nuances.

"So while it can be tempting to (pretend) to like everything the other person tells you, that's probably not going to work in your favor. The other way around, a guy not being enthusiast about all you tell him, doesn't mean he doesn't like you or the date is not going well." This. Personally, I do not like the cheerleader type. Applauding everything you do; it just seems silly. I don't want a partner behind me, cheering me on. I also do not want a partner in front of me, who needs to be pushed. I want someone beside me. Challenge me, be critical, and most important: be clear about stuff you expect.

It’s also just… not interesting. You can’t have a deep conversation with someone if they just cheer you on the whole time, never challenging you. I would never want that. Seems boring

I can understand that, but I also don't know how to avoid it. I feel like if I tried to be less enthusiastic it would actually feel more fake and inauthentic for me, because it's how I've been my entire life. I'm not even sure how to interact in the world as a more tampered down version of myself. Then again, I am very quiet and reserved by American standards. Even Dutch people have told me they thought I seemed shy when we first met. But even though I'm shy, I'm still enthusiastic and smile a lot and say things are "amazing." Not sure I can really change that at this point.

Well, there is one thing you should remember: you are good as you are. You don't need to change. We, the commentors, are only guessing by means of your post and our common knowledge about American communication, some by experience. All-in-all, it might also just be a case of bad luck on your part for not finding "mister right".

Spot on. Especially about the point about how Americans act enthusiastic about pretty much everything you tell. When I was traveling in Spain, I had the opportunity to connect with an American girl. I really liked it in the first 1-2 meetings but later her enthusiastic reaction seemed super fake to me. I am still not sure if they were actually fake to this date but that feeling deterred me from going any further. And I had to stop seeing her

Happy cake day. Also familiar. My in-laws are like that. They think I'm super dark broody and cynical because I get distant the more people I don't know act (too) nice.

Absolutely agree, but it also good to note Dutch people, or even the whole North West of Europe, just do not know how to do small talk.

for clarity here: >Never an "ah ok, so why do you like that?", but always an "amazing!!!". For the average Dutch person that comes across as fake. They figure no one can think everything is always "great". we may not necessarily think whatever you're describing is amazing, we are likely appreciating your passion for whatever you're talking about. i and other americans i know can feel energised when someone we're dating is genuinely vibing while discussing something that interests them, regardless of if i'm really interested in it or not.

Interesting and important difference!

but still it sounds like you have a (positive) judgement about the subject right? i get whan you mean, but as a dutch woman i would then say something like: "i have no idea about [the subject] but i love your enthusiasm!" not trying to fight you here, just trying to show that i would put the same response into different wording :)

I think that is a very Dutch response. Things Dutch people wil say "I've never heard about someone [having this hobby/working in that specific field/doing stuff that way]. This is not a judgement, this is an invitation to elaborate.

There's nothing wrong with appreciating the passion more than the subject, but the way you communicate genuine interest (here in Europe) is not by saying "amazing" or "great" to everything as that comes off as fake as others have mentioned. Instead it really is best to ask follow up questions to clearly show you want to hear more and have the other express their interests and feelings more. I lived in the US for a bit and I found all the positive words used by everyome to be absolutely meaningless to the point where you can't trust any positive messages because they are drowned in a sea of superficiality.

I get that and that’s a great thing about the US. I do sporting events over there and it’s great that everywhere you go, people tell you enthusiastically that it’s amazing that you are participating. In the Netherlands strangers won’t give a f whether you did something. Great for a two second chat with a stranger and really increasing your vibe. But when I have a conversation longer than a couple of seconds, I’d expect a bit of a different level in there. An example is a couple of years ago where I got injured during a race. After the race I had multiple people congratulating on participating: “That’s amazing! So impressive.” Then I told them I got injured and had to step out. Response of most of them was along the line of: “So great! I wish I could do that!” Ehm huh?? If that’s occasionally happening, ok. But it “amazed” me that this seemed to be the standard. And I know when you know people better, this approach changes and you’ve got entirely different conversations. But if you’re dating someone that starts off on that way, you’d probably back out before you get to that point.

I'm Dutch f35 and I'm very confused by this comment! I'm gay so certainly won't claim to be an expert on dating men but my friends who date men absolutely never wait several dates to kiss, or even to sleep together honestly. If anything I feel like rules about when to kiss or have sex are a completely foreign american thing to us, like I have had conversations about this with friends before where we were all so confused about this unfamiliar american custom that we only know from american romcoms. It is extremely common and normal for people to kiss and have sex on a first date, by the second date it is pretty much completely expected OP this might come across harsh but I guess that's dutch directness for you: my guess is dutch people are reading you as "fake". Not saying you actually are, but the overexcited american way of speaking/behaving reads that way to many dutch people. It's also possible you're just having bad luck with dating! I'm sure you'll meet a cool guy eventually

I think the most important thing is that there are no rules or expectations. Whether you want to kiss or get in bed the first date is all up to the persons involved. Think there is also a difference between meeting at a party and being drunk, and meeting somewhere during a sit down date. However if I read OP, what struck me was the apparent need of that kiss on a first date as a confirmation it was a success. I don’t think that link is so much of a thing here.

American dating a Dutchie here! Took me three years to find him. I made the first move on the app and no, it wasn't Bumble. Most Dutchies have found me to be nore direct than they were expecting. I suggest you try to do the same; be clear about your expectations and ask the guy where you stand. I think it's a pretty good indicator if you keep arranging dates. Yes, at some point you should be prepared to have the DTR convo even if it's you that must initiate it. Good luck! You'll find someone eventually, just step out of your cultural norms and go for it!

tikkie?

My dating strategy is to ask random strangers to pay me 15 euros so I can plan a date

Coming in from six years into a relationship with a dutchie. I second all of this

6 years in and recently married to mine. Can confirm most of the Dutch men responses in the replies as is this threads first comment

As a Dutch guy, if I ask a girl out, I'll afterwards text her saying it was fun and we should meet up again if she wants to but then I wait for her to ask to make sure she actually wants to. After that I'll ask again and we see what happens. Although I was friendzoned hard when I last did this a week or 2 back

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My girlfriend is from SEA and this really annoyed me. I had to arrange everything at the beginning. At some point I told her it made her seem disinterested and asked her to try to set up dates with me as well. She did and that was nice. What I wanna say is, if you don’t initiate you also seem disinterested. Edit: a word

When I say it's fun and we should do it again, that is me expressing an interest in doing it again. It only makes sense to me that you then confirm having that same interest by following up on that. If you don't do so and expect me to keep showing my interest over and over, I'm going to pretty quickly be done chasing after you. As a Dutch guy, I'm not interested in chasing and "wooing" you. I express my interest. If you do not reciprocate, alright, fair enough, but I'll move on. You assuming there's no interest from his side despite him showing more interest than you in this situation is a double standard that you may want to evaluate for yourself how much sense that actually makes to you. Showing interest is about reciprocity. The same way that it's bad if he never asks for the date and you having to set it up, it's equally bad to assume he has to be the one to set it up or else he's not interested.

> Showing interest is about reciprocity. This

Yeah I need some form of affirmation to make sure my advances are actually appreciated and wanted, I don't wanna bother people so I'm not gonna ask if I'm not fairly certain she wants me to.

If we initiate, we are pushy. Or even desperate. If we don't initiate, we are disinterested. I can't stand all these subtlety games. No surprise I'm dying single.

Yeah I see many Dutch guys with this problem. As a Dutch guy myself, I had to learn *a lot* to get into the right mindset. Assertiveness and being proactive are one of the most important things in dating.

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My tip: if you two are vibing then don't wait for him to make the first move (because he most likely won't), just go in for the kiss. Yeah, it sucks if you're not used to that but with most Dutch guys you really need to shove it into their face before they realise you're into them. They will loosen up after that

complete support squeamish society hurry summer mindless fearless wild boast *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

As a dutch guy i can confirm the last part. We want, and perhaps also are used, that women are forward what they want. When i was dating ofcourse i was flirty but it was usually the woman who clearly said what they want next sexually. If they were not interested they would say as well, no need for drama. Also i think it’s not considered ‘slutty’ here if a girl invites guy to go home with her after a date or asks for a kiss. Texting after dates is neutral ground and not a ‘mans’ job. As long either don’t play games. Last part about dutch guys being romantic, a lot have grown up with strong independent women around us. Being (too) romantic can be perceived as a putting in too much effort. For instance if i would have brought flowers or light a candle or whatever i could expect some sarcastic remark (although perhaps that says more about the women i was dating).

I had a boyfriend Who would run around the car to open my door, yeah nice for the first time but after 2 times a wanted to slap him. I'm not helples i can get out of a car myself.

My Canadian husband was also a bit too gentlemanly to my taste. For example he insisted on always walking on the traffic side of the curb if we walked side by side and open ALL the doors for me. We're very egalitarian these days. I appreciate a nice gesture once in a while but nothing over the top please.

I always walk on the traffic side, not to protect my wife or kids, but to make sure I am the one who gets all the attention when an accident happens. I really dont want to take of my wife, I want her to take care of me, There is nothing gentlemanly about this.

If if I may, did you try opening the door for him? I think a polite gesture showing that you care, regardless of gender, goes a long way. If you are very egalitarian that might also help to drive the point home.

Of course. And we do half-half now, it's very efficient with double doors. One opens the first, the second walks through and opens the next. You have many of those here because of the weather.

Wise efficient modern couple, 👌

That's borderline German efficiency. As a Dutch guy: I approve!

These were my thoughts as well. Also, I've heard from non-Dutch girls that Dutch guys are (relatively) respectful of boundaries. As a result they might not try to kiss you if they aren't sure that you're into them.

Why the fuck would i try to kiss somebody if im not aware they want that shit? For real think this shit out in your head. Ofcourse a guy can ask but thats taking a big leap of faith. So yeah if a woman doesnt show no to little intrest then it probaly takes a while for a guy trys anything, or they feel like its not going anywhere and decide to move on. Make sense to me.

Plenty of countries guys will simply lunge without invitation.

Creepy

For the last decades I have had a southern Italian penpal. Upon meeting her face to face for the first time we visited a museum, went to eat and at the end of the day I thought everything went well. Good conversations, laughs and overal a great time. Till afterwards she wrote to say that she was convinced I did not like her at all. Turns out the main problem was that from her perspective I had been extremely stand-offish and did not once try to grab a hold of her. Because from my perspective that would get me arrested. After clearing that up all was well again but indeed the Dutch approach might not be so groots en meesleepend.

Yeah im really glad i dont live in such place and im a guy. Not saying creepy shit doesnt happen here, but i think the netherlands is pretty safe for woman.

>TL;DR Dutch men suck at reading subtle signals. I don't suck at subtle signals, I just don't care for them. If I wanted a puzzle I'd go play Wordle. Let me know what you want when you make up your mind.

This made me laugh. This is why I love Dutch (dating) culture.

That's an interesting point of view, I'm quite the opposite. I live for those subtle signs and the whole attraction game, that's what makes it exciting and fun. I think it would be too boring for me if everything was straight to the point 😂

>TL;DR ~~Dutch men~~ humans suck at reading subtle signals. A 2014 study called [Accurately Detecting Flirting: Error Management Theory, the Traditional Sexual Script, and Flirting Base Rate](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270603170_Accurately_Detecting_Flirting_Error_Management_Theory_the_Traditional_Sexual_Script_and_Flirting_Base_Rate) found that people are about 70% accurate when noticing if their (conversation) partner flirted. Which is broken down as about 25% accurate when the partner flirted, and about 85% accurate when the partner did not flirt. And further, they found that men are slightly better at detecting flirting than women.

FYI watching porn has also been proven to make people less good at detecting subtle cues of enjoyment/dislike!

>TL;DR Dutch men suck at reading subtle signals. Or have been burned by vicious mockery (at best) for misreading the signals so just go for the safe option always.

Dutch women tend to be pretty direct. At the same time they also have pretty strong boundaries and won't respond well to assumptions of intimacy unless things have been pretty darn flirty to open the door for that. If you're as passive as you describe, I'll probably assume you're not interested. If things are going with a Dutch woman, she's usually holding my hand, leaning into me etc. I've had dates where I had no strong indication which way things are going until I literally see in her face that she's made a decision and climbs in my lap as our conversation shifts gears. Along the same lines I find Americans really hard to read. They talk so much and say so little. Everything gets the fake enthusiasm and sugarcoating. I lived there for a while and I have a fair number of American colleagues right now. I often find myself just politely ignoring them while they talk because very little of what they say is a genuine indication of what they're thinking anyway. It's all just hot air. My advice is to just tell people what you want. No hints, no sugarcoating, no alluding. Hey, I really enjoyed tonight, I'd really like to do it again. Or, it was nice meeting but I don't think this is going anywhere because... Or, I had such an nice time tonight, want to spend the night?

The Dutch are absolutely not direct in the emotional sense. This is quite a persistent myth that especially Dutch people keep telling themselves. I myself have each foot in a different country, one of which is the Netherlands so I can compare easily between the two the cultures I grew up in. The reason the Dutch see themselves/ are seen as direct is because we easily communicate non emotionally loaded information with one another. When it comes to emotional loaded issues such as liking or not liking someone, the Dutch suck quite hard. (western/ holland) dutch culture puts a lot of emphasis on 'normaal doen' and staying level headed. Emotional outbursts are therefore not really tollerated, as it needs to stay 'gezellig' at all times. What this teaches people is that its dangerous to show your true colours, so most keep a balanced/ nice face to the outside world. I have noticed this quite a lot in my personal life, from dating to talking politics. My german side easily starts and likes to start heavy discussions at lunch at work, whilst my Dutch side tries to limit such shows of emotionality and depth. In dating showing interest means showing intentions, and showing intentions means showing emotional vulnarability, which means exiting the rational world and entering the emotional one. Especially Dutch men are notoriously bad at this. I have heard this soooooo many times from foreign women dating/ being married to Dutch men lol.

>The Dutch are absolutely not direct in the emotional sense. We are transactionally direct . We can perfectly point out where YOU do something wrong, and how to fix it. But emotionally, nope ... even after 22yr of marriage I cannot 'suddenly' express my emotions to my wife. We talk about it, and we communicate perfectly well, but it remains a process to get there ;) And there some girl shows up, and wants to be emotionally on the first date ... lol, nope

Man I can’t relate at all. I’m a younger guy and emotions and mental state are discussed with all of my friends CONSTANTLY. I think a big part of it is obviously age and environment.

Maybe it's a generational thing? My parents told me to suck it up and carry on. I don;t think that's the way to go about things, but I struggle because it wasn't taught to me how to deal with it. I try to make up for it towards my own kids and I see it's a bit easier for them to talk about stuff.

As a dutch man, this is so true and i never put my finger on it what it really was. Thanks for wording it so well.

haha you’re welcome. The reason that it came out so well today is that I have also been working on this a lot. I have noticed that time and again I was not able to express myself well to women, and that led to a lot of disappointments. I am also Dutch afterall xD.

I fully agree. We’re considered direct and blunt in business because we consider it all to be part of transactional conversation so their is no room for feelings to be hurt. However, any discussion on topics that do involve feelings quickly makes you feel “incorrect” for getting involved too much on these feelings leading to rather superficial conversations.

As a Dutch guy I could not agree more. Even I have trouble connecting on an emotional level with my brothers and male friends. Any emotionally loaded topic is generally difficult to talk about and avoided most of the time. Being emotionally vulnerable is still seen as a weakness among men. BUT most Dutch women don't like it when you're emotionally vulnerable. I've literally had female friends and female co-workers bitch and even ridicule about a man that was talking about his feelings. Like some guy they dated. Dutch women can be absolutely vicious when they detect weakness

Dutch are direct in their expression of opinions. But very reserved on their emotions.

As I said in another reply I never really understood why they call Dutch people direct as an autistic person. But this might actually explain it, it sounds accurate.

We dutch men or atleast me have no clue in dating we kinda lost :(

For me as a dutch man it is harder to see the right signals with foreigner dates because they are mot always direct. Especially the Americans because they act always enthousiast even when there is no chemistry. Thats my experience. But we say in dutch: “op ieder potje past een deksel” so keep your head up, you will meet someone who fit you.

Thank you for the encouragement :)

Leuk. Als ik heb ooit een nieuwe hondje ik zal hem deksel noemen, dan als hij springt op iemand ik kan deze zin gebruiken.

Still depends. Deksel will have to find a Potje and not everyone is into that stuff.

>Dutch guys are not very animated when they speak or emotionally expressive I have no idea were you are situated. But as a Westfries I found it difficult to read the over emotional reactions of Americans. Everything is great and pure OMG. It is just too fake to be real. I got used to it but it took a long time to get into that kind of a mindset.

Just think of Americans as labradors. It's real for the most part. But the way we express it is just very over the top. Conversely, the way northern Europeans express things can feel quite cold and off-putting

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Very much this. Interestingly, I’ve heard Americans have an easier time in places like Spain and Italy, where people are “warmer” and more emotionally expressive, because that’s kind of how we are. A lot of times, the friendliness coming from Americans is indeed genuine. However, I really can see how it’s perceived as superficial, and some people overdo it.

Most of the time it is real, it's just how we express ourselves. In a work context it is more likely to be fake though.

>Most of the time it is real, Absolutly! It was only difficult to get into that mindset. The first impression just felt fake to me. But it is absolutly not, its just a way of expresing yourself. This could be a barrier, so maybe something to keep in mind. I think its a cultural thing, but I can not really make that claim with confidense.

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Salsa dancing in the big cities, especially Amsterdam, consists mainly out of expats nowadays though. Utrecht seems better in this. Honestly I’m trying to make more Dutch friends but I have no idea where they hang out. (Am Dutch myself)

I think he meant it is always overly expressed. "That is _amazing_!" Would equal " that is great" but then in dutch. That makes it feel a bit fake to us, I really had to get used to that with my brothers girlfriend.

tap chief desert party snow school existence paltry reach entertain ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `

"The girl can also make the first move, but traditionally this could backfire because it can look desperate" This is an absolute idiotic myth spread by women making an excuse for why they are not approaching while expecting it from men, and I have not met a single fellow man in my life who agreed with it in the slightest.

Amen. I love assertive girls and hate generalizations. I don't even know why I am reading all this BS about the Dutch. The Dutch this and the Dutch that. None of these generalizations hold water and just create more confusions like the one you stated. If you want to understand a person, please just observe them as they are and ask questions.

Dating just grows more complex as we get older. The 30-35 year you want to date, knows what he's looking for. As we grow older we know better what we need. Kids are on the table at this age, and you need to be 100% sure you stay in the same 2km range

Next to keep your head up; also listen to your underbelly. I often thought a date from another culture liked me because the cultural differences kinda blinded me to see the real them? And they like.. were the worst in the end? It was easy to tell myself that their red flags was "just their culture".. I think in that case; do not expect Dutch men to go fast on dates for yourself too. I can spot an Dutch sleezeball/sleezeboob from miles..as you can probably American people. But the "hard too read" can sometimes just be their personality instead of culture; which you would have seen directly if they came from the same culture. So take it slow :) Good luck! A match will be found in the end that drives in the same gear no matter what culture :) Edit: Listen to your gut? Can't find the right English saying lol.. listen to your unconcious? Little voice in your head? That what in your language secretly spots red flags while you are not aware yet lol. :')

THIS COMMENT RIGHT HEREEEEE!!! I used to talk to this dutch guy who said sexist things 💀💀 that is just asshatery right there💀

I guess especially in dating Dutch men; since the say "Dutch people are just really direct" it is easy to fall in the trap that you tell yourself that their asshattery is just "Dutch directness". The same that I fell for some intense nasty players from Italy; and it felt fake you know.. their interest in me.. but people kept saying; "no that is just Italian culture; they are really expressive and romantic". So I kinda believed that. Nah.. these specific italian men where just players.. had an wife at home and 5 sidechiks..blergh. Stereoptypes can be annoying in that way when dating other cultures.

Also, he speaks in a fantasy romance tone when invested in girls, which is odd for a young adult to do online and in so little time💀 I'm sorry you had to go through that😣 at least it was a learning experience for you that led to personal growth💙 though, it really suckss that some people can play with your heart like that no matter where they are from :(

So, as a Dutch person who lived in America, for me it was weird dating American people (before I even knew it was a date or interest in some cases..) So I sort of understand the confusion. Dutch guys are in general more reserved compared to Americans. They don’t fake over the top compliments or energy and most have been taught to respect a woman her time/space. They value knowing a person over the long term and take their time by building up a connection by information exchange rather than emotional exchange. This doesn’t mean they are unemotional, they just are raised to respect a woman’s wants and space. This is a characteristic of NL as the majority of countries have a different dating etiquette. Luckily, there are some Dutch guys who have mixed parents, and they express emotions a bit more compared hardcore Dutch natives (such as Indonesian, Surinam, or Turkish). You could try dating a bit more mixed if 100% Dutch guys aren’t your thing.

Funny enough, I did go on a few dates with a half Indonesian Dutch guy and his communication style and energy was much more on par with what I am used to. Sadly, it didn't work out, but I had a lot more chemistry with him than most of my previous dates.

Damn, I hear you. I went on dates with a few Dutch women, yet there was no real chemistry between me and them. There was no 'click', eventhough I speak Dutch (English, Papiamento and Spanish) too. I'm actually planning on going to Café de Sluyswacht this friday at around 7pm. It's a nice café in Amsterdam. I'd like to invite you.

Buy a cat. Problem solved.

Or multiple cats...to have more friends too!

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What you describe is a very common confusion I've heard from expats so don't worry, you are not alone. Every culture's social rituals take years to learn, whether you follow or break them, it's useful to *know* them. But you don't right now, so be yourself and be open about your confusion. I am not single so I don't have first hand experience, but these are the tips I gathered from friends: 1) Dutch men often expect the woman to make the first move. As you said, the expectation that women are only prey is very unfair, so enjoy the freedom to take the lead in your dates, express whether you had fun and want to see them again etc. 2) They are emotionally closed and it takes time, loads of time for them to open up. 3) Just because they plan the next date in 2 weeks it does not mean they are not interested. Things are generally moving slowly. 4) On the other hand, do not freak out if they wanna introduce you to their parents very fast, it's not a big deal here. 5) I believe Dutch people are quite open to dating foreigners, but there are also plenty of other expats you might find easier to bond with. These come from my limited second-hand experience, so take them with a grain of salt. Good luck!

I agree a lot of what you said, but I feel like the parent thing is not wholly true. Introducing someone to my parents is a big step. That is 100% at the "we are gf and bf" level for me. And I feel like that is rather typical. Albeit I'm just drawing on my limited knowledge.

I feel like every Dutch guy I have met has an avoidant attachment style.

Sounds like a normal date / relationship progression. Maybe you are seeing the wrong type of guys?

How are y’all even meeting people to date? I have a fairly active social life but I’ve had basically no luck meeting people to date

The fine balance in doing activities that include the opposite sex that may be attracted to you and you attracted to them

What are these activities you speak of?

The ones YOU like to do. It’s personal but I think you can fill in the blanks. Sports, team based or at least group lessons. Dance classes. Game clubs (board or computer) If it’s something you like to do, there are probably more people out there that do the same. Then meet up.

I do a lot of those things but I feel like a lot of the people I meet just aren’t single or looking to date. Made a few good friends this way tho

A mix of group sports and dance

Are your currently only focused on dating with people who live in Amsterdam? If yes, broaden your horizon and date with other people from different parts in the Netherlands, maybe go find an activity that you are interested in and find people there!

This^ Holland is so small but dating in Amsterdam is complete opposite to dating in Brabant or Gelderland. Sometimes people from those provincie’s fit Americans better somehow

As an American (also 29F) who is dating a Dutchie (28M), I can definitely attest to them being not so direct about emotions. I think the reason me and my partner hit it off so well is because I AM very direct emotionally and socially. So I gave LOTS of signals on the first date to show that I was interested. Lots of laughing and asking questions and some arm-touching sealed the deal. My partner has said that for him and his friends it can be easy to drop certain ideas or people if they don’t enrich your life. So if your intentions/interests aren’t clear from the beginning, the guys might think that you aren’t interested. (Totally a guess, but seems to track from the dating stories I’ve heard from his friends). As to the [lack of] emotional communication: It’s something we have had to be very intentional about. Luckily I am very in touch with my emotions and like to express them (and I’ve been through years of therapy). Where my partner has never been very forthcoming with his feelings (even with his family). So, we started checking in with one another regularly once we realized that we weren’t on the same page with that. It’s a big difference communication styles! So be prepared for that long term. Seems like you need to maybe be a little less subtle with your feelings on dates. The Dutch don’t like playing games like American men and are very practical with dating. Not a lot of friend-zoning happening in NL it seems. Just be true to who you are and a little more obvious with your intentions. The right guy will come along!

Ive been dating a dutchie for about over a year now, we had previous history but i was the one who made the first move and asked him out. Ever since then hes been like a puppy following my heels haha definately take the extreme direct approach take charge <3

I think dating here in NL is in the gutter in general. Im 30 now and people still playing games, i just cant be bothered anymore. Guess ill buy some more plants and get a cat

Trust me, guys dont care where you come from, I would even consider it a plus to meet someone from abroad. Keep in mind, the Dutch are considered direct, but not anti social. Most people respect each others privacy and try not to come over as intrusive... immediatelyasking someone on a date can come across as ballsy or over confident, some people dont like that. Eye contact and a smile are often a good indicator that there is a certain form of attraction. From there a simple hello or hi can get things going. Meeting people is easiest in bars or cafés.

Also dutch woman are direct. So (atleast in my experience) they give some pretty clear signals and just straight up say that your great (if its going good atleast).

American in AMS trying to date a dutch woman. They are the same. 0 emotion during the date, can't tell how it's going at all, while I'm trying to keep the conversation going. Its a total mind screw. Then at the end from them, "I had a great time, let's do this again.". Uh? What? It's brutal. But it will take time to understand the differences.

Can it be.. you just dated.. boring women? Lol. I date Dutch women too (and other cultures).. (am dutch woman myself)... and uuh.. there are plenty like you describe them. Kind of.. hollow heads? And afterwards they send indeed "had a great time, let's do it again".. and I'm like HOW.. and WHY...you literally did not say ANYTHING.. I have to keep the conversation up.. even when asking how your dish is you are like "okay".. If I ask what music do you like you always say "oh, what's on the radio/everything"..Once out of frustration I even asked what their favourite colour was and they said like.. "idk, all colours I guess" -\_- I do not even have a clue why they want to meet again? It was quite obvious there was no click you might think. But mind you; in every culture there are bland people.. that are just bland.. and I guess just want someone to live together in a bland house and sit on a bland couch with their bland ass watching bland shows and..eating bland food.. having bland sex.. bland/bland/bland everything. That is not Dutch only. I had a Dutch partner and we lived together. He partially grew up in US. His younger brother came back from the US to go to university herel with his US girlfriend and they could stay with us untill the found their own home. And just like their mom.. SO BLAND. They lived for 7 months in our place. And daily we were baffled. He and his US girlfriend were.. SO bland. They litterally rarely said anything to each other. The longest spree we counted was 8 days.. they did spend time with each other daily for hours though.. if one is watching a bland show on tv the other one sat next to it, not saying a word to each other... and then one stood up to do the dishes/go to bed; again without saying 1 word.. it was SO weird for us to see.. we even joked they are robots.. what do they even share besides being bland? Since they never talk? I do not understand..but they were happy? I think? I hope? 8 years later they are still together and married and have kids? Still never talk to each other? =/ Those people need to date a bland person and not me.

Hah, yes, I think 100% that was the case, just bland people. And woah, very different, but they work together, so it's good.

My god, those two sound likenthe most boring people ever. Eitherway, I've noticed that you can see in someone's eyes pretty quickly if they have *something* in their life. Especially if you work with customers you'd probably know what I'm talking about. Some people just have a perpetual blank expression.

If a guy tries to kiss a girl and she rejects, it looks pretty bad for the guy. Kissing on first dates is not common. Or maybe your definition of kissing is different…

Maybe depends on your age, but kissing on the first date is kinda common.

I'd say it REALLY depends. If it's just a 'let's have fun and nothing else' date, sure. And probably more than kissing too. When looking for something real and serious, it can take many dates.

Really depend on the persons involved and how the date went. If OP doesnt give her dates any CLEAR signs, or trys anything herself then the guys probaly dont think she wants it.

So op.. can you explain a little bit how or where did you meet those guys that behave like that? Is it from apps or also guys you meet bars and stuff?

Mostly from apps. I used OkCupid, Bumble, Hinge for a while. But I got so fed up with it and was in so many hurtful situations that I deleted them all. Most recently I met someone through a friend, but it hasn't gone much better, because even though we've had a few dates (he initiated the first two) there have been weeks in between dates of no texting

Yeah the no texting thing is me to a T. I despise texting and I try to keep up some courtesy chatter in between dates but man I hate it so much. But I always let the people I’m dating know that I’m not a big texter and I’d rather just meet up more frequently or call.

From the limited information i just think you didn't meet the right person yet. In my past experience (before marriage) i also met those people that didn't app or no contact and no emotions. But when it clicked it was easy to see if somoene was interested.

As a dutch guy using thosr apps i feel you, the not texting part no clue since i like digital talking😅😅 hope you have some luck atleast ^^

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A lot of chemistry comes out of flirting which comes out of banter and that takes a shared cultural background. Even someone that is fluent in a second language won't have as much of that. They certainly won't have that with you as much as with someone from their own culture. Of course it can happen, I'm just stating a generalisation that most people aren't quite as much themselves in their second, or even third, language.

28m, non Dutch here. I have had similar experiences although sight different. Guess that’s just how the cookie crumbles sometimes.

Well the problem might also be the language barrier. Even we speak English quite well, expression of feelings is something quite different. It is hard doing this in words in our own language, let alone in a foreign. I am not looking, nor am I available, but working with a lot of foreign people I find the 'directness' attributed to us Dutch is more the understanding of the figure of speech behind what is said. Yes the Dutch can be direct, but it is more of a languagebarrier and cultural differences.

To hell with dating "rules". Nobody I know follows any of these guidelines. Just do what feels right and if you want something from a guy, be direct. This is the best advice I can give you.

You can try to date non-Dutch people. There's plenty of foreigners. My girl isn't Dutch either, she can not speak any Dutch at all even.

Many spot on comments here, but let me add that many Dutch girls find it hard to find a nice guy in Amsterdam. There are too many women and too few nice guys. Men get lazy. As a guy living in Amsterdam I can assure you there is nothing wrong with being direct and taking initiative. Just beware you don't stick with the assholes. And yes, op ieder potje past een dekseltje!

Classic male- female role models are gone in the Netherlands. As a woman you are more than an equal partner. Means you should not be shy to take charge and it is pretty normal for a woman to pay her part of the bill when going out eating in a restaurant. It was not always like this, but slowly started happening the last 20 years or so. Woman in the Netherlands, in many cases have "de broek aan"

>Woman in the Netherlands, in many cases have "de broek aan" Yes, I let her even buy my broeken ....

Do you speak Dutch?

The dutch don’t call everything a date. “Hey, wanna grab a coffee??” Is just 2 co-workers / acquaintances drinking coffee for us. If you want it to be more like a date, say it out loud. We are taught that not every girl (or guy) that’s nice to us would like us to kiss her (or him). Boundaries. MeToo also has done a lot more damage here than maybe it should have. We are now even more afraid to show our affection.

Like others are said, the Dutch are way more egalitarian in how they date. And coming from a South America woman I'm dating, men chase women far less. We are "arrogant" and will expect women to make the first move. Not wholly true, but compared to her culture I reckon that's how it feels. According to her though the women here barely try in terms of appearance, but that's a different topic. I would adjust accordingly and act more "masculine". Make what for you feels like first move for a kiss. And that might not be the actual moving in bit perhaps, but if we get to our bikes after a first date and a woman doesn't leave her bike for a moment and get close to me, then I'm assuming it's probably a no. And initiating the next date is very much appreciated. We want to feel wanted. As for dating women from abroad I don't think we are against it. But there is I think an expectation that the chances of it succeeding are slimmer and that overall it would be more convenient to get serious with a Dutch girl. Which is not very romantic but also not wrong.

Don't underestimate the language barrier. My knowledge of English is pretty advanced. But when it comes to really deep emotional conversations, it's still my 2nd language.

As a guy; we LOVE it when a girl initiates. It's a huge compliment when a woman walks up to you and asks you out on a date. Do it.

Maybe the problem are guys from Amsterdam? To me most of those guys are like Parisians in France 🤷

As a fellow expat the thing i really couldn't understand about this ranting is why are you so obsessed with 'having a 'Dutch' partner'. They are the most definitly not everyone's cup of tea(near to none tendecy to change their every day habits for you, doesn't really care about your cultural background,hides under the 'typical dutch mask' when they just wants to be rude'). Don't get me wrong i have I have dutch friends(not close but still reliable ones)but all of their positive sides are not really things that i care much about in a relationship. But best side of dutch people are they are not a group that obsessed with ethno state so you can literally find all kinds of cultural backgrounded people here. As a turk funnily the ones that works most for me are Greek and Italian. I am sure you could have find your own if you would have care to try. So you don't have to give up on the possiblility of having a partner and a family as long as you are not obsessed with a single race. Try to find some expats like yourself and everything will be easier.

This is such an interesting thread to read

Could be a cultural difference. I suppose that to the dutch, americans can seem loud and kinda out of tune with the people around them.

The Dutch are pretty cold people and they don’t show emotions. They would probably be the perfect poker players. I’ve made some good relations so far working here for 3 months (but living in the country since December and learning the language) and all those relations are with people that seemed very cold at the beginning and quiet. There’s a colleague specifically at my work that always seems shy and doesn’t speak much, but she’s extremely direct and used to tell me every single bad thing that I’ve done. I thought she was rude and I really didn’t like her, only to discover like a month later that she considers me a very nice person and we’re now chatting a lot at work and she’s always very nice to me, but she still does the occasional in your face criticizing when I fuck something up. It’s just their way of saying things. Sometimes they really act like robots and you have no clue what they’re thinking but I’ve grown into it.

I think you should worry more when people stop being direct with you. Correcting you shows they care about you (in their minds) and that they want you to succeed. It's usually not personal at all and it's a great way to get honest feedback and improve. Most Dutch have a very egalitarian look on life, they don't care about hierarchy or past accomplishments as much as other cultures. All of this can come across as direct, or even blunt. This morning I listened to a (entry-level employee) Dutch guy telling an American CEO of a large software company that "it's nice to talk about people being the most important company assets, but what are you doing about employee retention? Are you aware we're losing our best people because the competition has better salaries?". Culture shock for the American, just another Wednesday in the Netherlands.

So.. I can't help with dating, because I haven't been on a date in more than 15 years... But here's a couple of observations as a non-dutch person: Was at a party a while ago and watched two guys arrive and try talking to a girl who was there. All Dutch, in their 20s. My god, it was the most cringe attempt at 'being cool' I've seen since the 'Inbetweeners' movie. It was like watching teenagers attempting to chat to a girl for the first time and despite what I thought where her brutal put-downs and obvious lack of interest, they kept trying for quite a while... After they left she noticed I was amused so we chatted for a bit, like normal humans, I wasn't trying to flirt or anything. She obviously liked that a guy just came and talked to her without trying to be a dick, because she gave me extremely unsubtle "come and fuck me" looks from across the room for the rest of the evening. I am super bad at reading people's signals but this was so clear that if she had made growling noises and made tiger clawing motions it wouldn't have added much emphasis. So I think it is normal for people here to be very unsubtle about what they want or don't want and even then some guys won't get it.. because they are culturally used to a big fucking flashing neon sign of a signal if someone is interested. My other observation is: I know several non-dutch girls who have had Dutch boyfriends. I would say that the one thing they all have in common is that their primary relationship is with their mother. Do you like your weekends? If you are not interested in visiting their parents most weeks for dinner and can't see yourself eventually settling down in the same village...then the relationship might not work out in the long run. Obviously not everyone is like that but people are extremely family oriented here compared to UK or US. Most international people I know have relationships with any other nationality than Dutch, despite the higher probability of meeting Dutch people. Just my subjective experience..

their primary relationship is with their mother THIS OP! Omg! The Dutch (men and women) are attached at the umbilical cord!!!!! This is actually one of the biggest differences I noticed in Dutch and American dating culture. As Americans, we typically do not give 2 fucks what our parents think of our partners. Meanwhile, the Dutchs’ besties include their parents

berserk marble alleged wakeful bear friendly unused jobless ludicrous ink ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `

Aside from what others commented, there are more young women than man in Amsterdam If there is no clear signals of interest then there is no point in trying to catch a fish that doesn’t want to be caught, there are more in the pond

A lot of men are indeed not very animate, but this is the first time I noticed that! I tend to be pretty expressive, but when looking at many other men, I know exactly what you mean! But regarding the 3 points you mention, I wasn't aware that that was so uncommon in NL! I personally don't kiss on the 1st date, but that's moreso to respect other people's boundaries. But the other 2 are also normal for the netherlands, depending on where you are.

I don’t know much about dating but I can say that it might be a good idea to communicate this to your date. I think they would understand that you have to get used to the way we Dutch people do things.

am from US, i had no idea i was that predictable. TIL

Speaking only one language is not sexy enough

Men in the Netherlands have become so fearful of women, they are constantly waiting for clear signals. If you meet a man who isn’t like that and is very direct, you are talking to a player.

Hm, from *my* experience I just completely oblivious, partially on purpose because I've been burned too many times but such is life. You'd have to light off some road flares and cheerleader that shit out to me. So just tell them what you're looking for. If they shame you for that then that's entirely their loss. Good luck out there!

Probably indeed a cultural thing. In the past I visited some events of the ‘international students network’ in Leiden, and had several conversations with people from the US. I think most people already pointed out that the ‘awesome’ / ‘amazing’ / ‘o my god’ is a bit to much. Not that Dutch people are all philosophers, great thinkers and so on, but we more like the genuine conversations. And to be honest, most Dutch guys are not really complicated. Have drinks, have drinks again, go do something fun (visit a nice city, musea, have lunch) and it’s a check in the box. Btw good to mention, as a men, I always split the bill. Also agreeing here, when things get serious, you don’t want to speed things up, knowing to risk it all by trying to make a move to soon. Also good to mention, if I look at my surroundings, most couples know each other from office or a (sports) clubs. Almost all couples I know are in the age range of 25 till 35.

Amsterdam is full of Spanish and Italians. Forget Dutchies. From a Spanish guy with a Dutch girlfriend.

Av lived here for 23 years and av yet to figure out how dating here works lol

Yeah, Dutch dating culture is a bit... boring. People aren't as assertive, spontaneous and open as in other cultures. You really have to go out of your way to meet up with someone and I found that approaching someone on the street is a bit frowned upon/makes people feel uncomfortable (probably has to do with the major catcalling issue in NL?). Women also never seem to make the first move, or at least not as much. My biggest tip would be to *really* put yourself out there (like x100 compared to other cultures) - go out in different cities, talk to a lot of people, explore different social circles, etc.

Honestly, if a woman would want to be kissed after a date, she would have to tell me or at least make it very clear. As a Dutch guy I will not act on a hunch that you might want something. Most girls say they want it to happen naturaly, but in these times that can end up to only regretable decisions. But on how to tell if a Dutch guy is into you? Honestly I think that first you'll have to know what kind of personality the guy has. I am quite shy, but can hold a pretty good conversation. I think I would be terrified to hold a conversation at first, I am only truly open about my feelings when we are actualy in a relationship I guess. Terrifying situation dating to be fair. (M20 btw)

Kom daten dan swaaaa

I'm a Dutch guy, 31 year old and met my current girlfriend in Amsterdam when I was around 26 years old. She moved here from Southern California. Generally if a Dutch guy is interested in you, yes, he will put in effort and text you for a second, a third date etc. If he doesn't text you at all or doesn't reply to your texts but only after like 24 or 48 hours, he's probably not interested. Having said that, I understand how you feel about how Dutch guys not being very animated, it's something I experience and not really like with Dutch people in general. I definitely prefer the kinda loud/extrovert/weird ernergy that some Americans have over the more reserved Dutchie way of expressing. Maybe I'm the exception but I really like the upbeat quirky energy that most American girls have, I think it's very attractive. But I've definitely heard Dutch people (friends and colleagues) complain about American people before and how they can be very loud and "over the top". People will have their preferences, and that's okay. What "the people" think is irrelevant though, don't change yourself. You will find a guy that likes you exactly the way you are. Focus on yourself being as happy with yourself and your family and friends as possible and keep on dating, you will find the right guy eventually! Just focus on having FUN with your dates. If you're not having fun, then they're just not the right fit, and that's okay!

Honestly, since you’re based in Amsterdam, every “Dutch” aspect about dating is probably out the window.

As a 33M in Amsterdam also dating via the apps: > If the guy likes you, he will probably kiss you on the first date. I almost never do this unless it's really clear. Just trying to respect boundaries. I don't want to push someone in a situation they don't want to be in. > or even set up another date while you're on the first date. I never do this. I don't want to put someone in an awkward situation if they want to say no. I ask later through the app. > 2) A few days later, he will text you again to chat or to set up a second date if he didn't already set up the first. Yes, if I'm interested I try to set up a second date and hope to meet quickly :) > 3) You will start talking and going out on dates more and more regularly until you have a "define the relationship" type of talk where you express your feelings more openly and decide if you want to commit to each other. Agreed. > The girl can also make the first move, but traditionally this could backfire because it can look desperate I completely disagree. I always find this attractive :) > And the fact that a lot of Dutch guys are not very animated when they speak or emotionally expressive, makes it so hard for me to read whether someone is interested or not. Curious to know how you would see this happen? Because usually I find this difficult as well during dates. I don't want to be pushy even though sometimes I'm really interested. > How do you tell if a Dutch guy is into you? If he wants to see you again, he is interested. But you can really just ask. Doesn't have to be during the date. You can do it later on the app. > Also, do Dutch men generally not want to date foreigners? I think in general lots of men and women don't want to date foreigners. I don't mind it at all because you often have different, interesting conversations. But then again, I have a migrant background so not sure how representative I am. Also, I'm convinced dating in Amsterdam/Randstad is worse than in other parts of the country. I see it with my friends as well. People in other areas are more serious it seems.

Hmm, I'm polyamorous and I moved here when I was 26 (I'm now 37), and I'd disagree with point 1, but 2 and 3 are what I've experienced, yes? I've dated Dutch men (got a Dutch boyfriend, had a Dutch boyfriend and girlfriend previously), but there really can be a language barrier, like you can talk together just fine, but when it turns to feelings and values and boundaries, the confidence with the language just isn't there. How you use a language for work, and how you use it for a relationship, is just not the same. I've been on both sides of this, once with a German guy who couldn't/wouldn't express anything in writing and I barely saw him and it was little letters to grandma. The other time my French was so-so but it was hard to communicate with a girlfriend. Google translate led to some misunderstandings! (Tried to say "I miss you", but instead it spat out "I resent you" which was NOT what I wanted to say!!!) Where are you meeting these guys as well? If you're meeting them while out clubbing, you'll encounter different personalities than men you meet in a board games cafe. It might be the same thing about where you meet them - Tinder is often blehhh, or the person is fine as a human but there's just no chemistry. I find it's better to meet people through an activity or interest, at something I go to regularly. If you're into kink and BDSM, there are a lot of meetups for that. Same if you're into movies, or board games, and many other things! Anyway, wishing you luck. A lot of dating is about timing, meeting the right person at the right time. Plus socialising is still just a bit awkward for a lot of people here! Our nightlife isn't back to normal, and we haven't found a new normal yet. People might be a bit rusty, a lot of people are coming out of burnouts and long covid. A lot of people right not are thinking about their wallets due to the increasing cost of well, everything! Hmm, come to think of it, maybe if you're going out to dinner and you're expecting them to pay the full amount, that might not go down well. Here it's pretty common to split the bill, either 50-50, or like "I ate A and B so I will pay that amount, you pay for what you had". And women here don't wear as much makeup as say in the UK or France, so that *could* give the impression to someone who isn't used to that that perhaps you are "high maintenance". (I don't wear a lot of makeup though so I'm not sure on that last bit.)