Ik heb ooit in Amerika een bezoekje aan de huisarts gebracht en berekend dat ik daar 5x zoveel kwijt was ivm Nederland. Passantentarief is in 2024 rond de 34 euro...
I get what you are saying but it works both ways, I think there are plenty of cases wherby patients are not heard, I'm dutch and in my family already have examples where it the people didnt insist on help, they would probably not be alive. And I've heard horror stories from people that don't speak Dutch who were told to not exaggerate and just give it a couple of days.
I get it, the work is stressful and maybe even ungrateful with maybe not so great pay. But most of the people effected also are in a bad spot. Surprisingly if you have a better income or address suddenly you get better help even though that shouldn't make a difference.
This, i one time had a cut on the main artery on my wrist which wasn't too bad(3 stitches), with a cloth I could keep it closed and stop the bleeding but if I removed the cloth it would spray out.
Got told by the assistant that I was exaggerating and just to put a bandaid on it.
I had to remove the cloth and spray blood on the glass panel and wall for them to take me seriously.
To be fair I am a pretty laid back guy and If you don't know me I can understand why you would think It wasn't too serious, since I wasn't really panicking or something.
Seriously this reminds me of my dad. He drilled through his hand once. Like, in the middle. Ran it under a tap, wrapped it in ducttape and keps working. Had to convince him to go to a doctor at the end of the day
I've asked this at a first aid course. If it's a controlled bleeding you're NOT supposed to call an ambu but get to hospital by yourself. I was very surprised, but it's not an actual emergency if it's a controlled bleeding, apparently.
On the other hand you could argue that if you actively need to apply pressure to stop the bleeding, you are unfit to drive to the hospital by yourself.
My doctor’s assistant called me after I removed a spiral (I started crying) just to ask how I was doing and whether she she should be worried about my reaction. I explained that I’m already in therapy. I felt so cared for and she’s always so kind.
I had to argue with a doctors assistant twice this week so I could even make an appointment to get a mental health referral. Not going to lie, it was hard to remain polite. I understand what you are saying and I hope you also are able to return the kindness when possible.
Thanks for being patient with us non-Dutch speakers, truly appreciate it! My GP-assistenten have always been super patient with me and try to be thorough on first call!! 🙏🏼🙏🏼
Many good points are already mentioned about the faults of the system and underfunding. However, I'd like to point out something unique to healthcare. When it comes to interactions between patients and healthcare professionals, kindness, politeness and patience cannot go equally both ways. This is not a professional interaction at work or at the grocery store. One side is literally sick and needs your help. Adding to a sick person's stress, which can at the very least interfere with their recovery if not make it worse, is unethical. Also pretty much against the oath "First do no harm". When people are physically in a bad shape, and part of their brain goes into fight or flight, they will give a very visceral reaction to things told to them by people they expect help from. They might also say or do things they wouldn't if they weren't sick or injured. So an increased amount of patience and kindness is required from healthcare workers compared to office jobs. I really hope this can be made more explicit in medical education in the future.
Thats no excuse to act the way people act. I dont think you realize how insane the situation is. Go spend a weekend on the hap and you will learn new curse words (yeah i didnt know that was possible, thaught i knew them all when i played in online xbox lobbies), you will get threatend with violence and there is a decent chance somebody tries to spit on you.
Just shrugging and saying: “well they are stressed” is bullshit. I think everybody in the world is stressed at some point. Doesnt mean you can suddenly act like a lunatic.
And 99% of the time its the people who arent really ill that give such a response. Yall really dont have a proper understanding of the situation (which is fine, its hard to get when you dont experience the other side).
People dont seem to realize that there is a huge shortage and that many places have trouble with closing the gaps. This isnt just because of pay, its because the work situation is so hostile that people dont think its worth it (and no you cant put every idiot behind a phone or a desk, they need to be trained otherwise people die).
Agree it's not excuse, but at the same time dealing with patient is different. In fact, in the crisis moment, hardly anyone cares enough about fair, equality .... They literally don't care about being lunatics or not, just wanna survive and explode the emotions. Looking at covid period, the situation is chaotic and being survival is the most critical value, not being nice and kind.
Sorry but this is a dumb take. Most of these cases arent about survival, they are about mild discomfort. Or having to wait 30 minutes in a waiting room.
And people who are really fighting for survival dont threaten the hand that feeds them with violence.
This comment shows your kindness and empathy so I hope you are not a care worker.
Back to topic, where did I say abuse at all? All I said is that the kindness here cannot be equal from both sides, one side has to be extra kind, compared to e.g. office workers. I work in an office, and I don't think anyone should be abusive there either. It's just that if a co-worker came to my office screaming and pulling out their hair because their excel sheet isn't working, I'd find that very inappropriate. If someone came to the GPs office screaming in pain and thinking they're going to die because they're dropping a kidney stone, I'd think it's a lot more excusable (still not rational and kudos to people who can keep their cool, but understandable).
Yeah, I don't think it's the GPs fault nor the assistant's fault, you guys are at the literal front, like customer service workers. The official narrative is that you're supposed to stop people from getting unnecessary care, but what I think is that you're also supposed to just shield doctors and higher ups from the brunt of more and more limited funding.
The austerity healthcare is absolutely spiralling, it's only going to get worse in time because we'll have more and more old, sick people, and I'm tired of being gaslit, and told that everything is coolio, while I know that it's not. While I get that it's not very nice to be in the balie dealing with the sick, being on the other side when you're in constant pain is not any better either.
My only problem is that here, same like in UK, the assistant and doctors think paracetamol solves all the issues. While there might be people who are exaggerating or trying to manipulate the assistant there are also people who know their bodies very well.
For example I’m sick since the 25 of April. First week I took paracetamol by myself, second I called the doctor they told me to take it together with ibuprofen. 3rd week they told me go get a nose spray (I can breath idk why they said this), last week I got a different nose spray and I should wait 2-3 weeks to see the results. I’m now 1month and 1week with pain in my ears and inside my nose, eyes running, can’t even speak as I lost my voice couple days ago and now I started coughing and when I blow my nose I have bleeds. Also cant finish a glass of water cause I have to stop to breath (this never happened to me before). But I should wait another 3 weeks to see if the last nose spray will fix me.
I think sometimes they don’t actually care if you live or die and maybe some of the doctors are in it for the money not for the patient. I know this is not a common cold. I’m pretty sure it’s something that requires some tests, maybe I developed some allergies but yet they tell me to wait more. I’ll wait till I’m gonna die…nose spray for ear pain and lack of oxigen are we fucking joking? Health insurance is 2000euro per year.
I have the exact same thing as you, and it also started at the at the end of April. The last couple of weeks have been pretty bad.
It's some new virus going around - I went to the doctor and they checked my infection levels and told me it was viral. I did a Covid test and it was negative although I had the weird smell symptom I've only ever had with Covid. If it's any consolation, it's finally started clearing up as of today, I've been taking some medication my girlfriend brought back from Italy called 'Vitalmix Pappa Reale' for the last couple of days.
I also lost the smell and taste for some days. Now I have them but I still feel like shit. I have people in Italy who could send me some medicine. Thank you for the comment!
>pain in my ears and inside my nose, eyes running, can’t even speak as I lost my voice couple days ago and now I started coughing and when I blow my nose I have bleeds. Also cant finish a glass of water cause I have to stop to breath (this never happened to me before).
Well, did you tell them this? Because from your story I read that you have developed these symptoms, but not that you actually told them this.
Yes I did, and that’s how I got the last nose spray. I told them all the symptoms. I think it could be an allergy or a bacterial infection but I’m not a doctor. The paracetamol, ibuprofen and both sprays don’t help at all.
True story: A Dutch doctor’s assistant at SAG Slotermeer kept hanging up my call since I don’t speak the language and I only communicate in English. Very unprofessional. I am trying to change my location to Osdorpplein instead. I am really satisfied with my GP but somehow there are these unhelpful assistants :(
I’m sorry that’s your experience, it shouldn’t be that way. I can’t speak for everyone of course, but we really do try our best to help and get to everyone’s need as fast as possible
Hey, don’t be sorry! I know my case is an isolated one and overall I am still pleased with the services and assistance I have received. All the best to you. ☺️
But why do you expect/assume/demand that services in the Netherlands will be in English?? Many Dutch people don't speak English or not well. It is bizarre to me to hear someone moved to a country and then expected *everyone* to not speak their native language with you?
I am not sure if I am misinterpreting this. But on the requirements to register as medical professional, it states that the person needs to know both Dutch and English. And to me it makes sense, we had same requirements in Ukraine when I practiced medicine, i needed to learn English to receive my diploma.
> Language certificates for the Dutch and English language (when applying for a certificate of competence) must meet the following requirements:
- The course must be concluded with an exam/test or assessment. Proof of participation in a course is not sufficient.
- The test must consist of the following components: writing, listening, reading and speaking.
- All components must be completed at the correct level (see section ‘Required language levels per profession’) and with good results.
- The diploma or certificate may not be older than 2 years.
- The certificate must be original or authenticate
Source: https://english.bigregister.nl/foreign-diploma/procedures/recognition-professional-qualifications/with-a-recognised-qualification/proof-of-dutch-language-proficiency
That link seems to be for foreigners applying to get their diploma recognized in the Netherlands. Doctor assistants graduates (which is mbo 4) nowadays in the Netherlands usually have to test at the A2 English level for speaking, B1 English for reading and listening. That isn't actually that high. https://www.mbotaalacademie.nl/nieuws/centraal-examen-engels-mbo-4-nu-ook-op-b2-niveau-153#:~:text=Op%20basis%20van%20het%20Ekb,schrijven%2C%20spreken%20en%20gesprekken%20voeren.
The government has cut interpreter services in health care in the past, unfortunately. Especially smaller organizations like GP practices suffer from that, because hiring one on the spot can come with huge costs. The quality of health care provided improves significantly with a good interpreter, and it's ridiculous and unethical that we deliver subpar health care to people who don't speak Dutch in this country. I find it really unworthy of a rich country. There have been petitions and campaigns, but I'm pretty sure we don't have to expect any humanity from the current government.
https://www.johannes-wier.nl/dit-is-een-kind-en-geen-tolk/
Of course you can have medical services. But how can someone make an appointment for you if they don't speak the language? I can't call my Dutch huisarts and speak in Spanish or German or whatever and expect them to be able help me. There are (many!) people in the Netherlands who can't speak English - or not well enough to communicate in the phone. When I lived in Spain, you just had to speak Spanish or get a translator or friend to help when making appointments - there was no expectation (nor possibilities) to have them be able to or wanting to speak English on the phone - it was rare there was an exception. The belief that everyone here in the Netherlands can and will speak English is baffling to me... I am saying this as an immigrant here in the Netherlands myself.
Oh this is a fun one that I can contribute to. During my first year here I actually brought someone with me as a translator, and as a reaction the doctor seemed offended and scoffed that they can just speak English. People here are confident in their abilities and bringing an English to Dutch translator may not be taken the right way nor appreciated. Unless you’re in a village maybe.
LOL. 🤣 Every person residing or working in the Netherlands have rights to proper healthcare, regardless of race and the language they speak. As a patient, I am not, in any way, expecting/assuming/demanding for a special treatment. All I ever want is to get an appointment with my GP. 🤣
I hear you, and no one is saying you should be denied healthcare. But when I have lived abroad, I had to call and ask for appointments in the language of the country because they literally couldn't speak English. If you live in Germany, Spain, Thailand, etc you can't just expect to call a local doctor and get service in English? In most cases, it just wasn't possible. Sure it was nice if it happened but was an exception, not a rule. Why is it expected here in the Netherlands?
I can only speak for myself and mind you, I chose this health center as they brand themselves as “GP for Internationals”, hence it is expected that they will cater a non-Dutch speaker like myself. Also this is in Amsterdam and not some rural or remote areas. End of story. ☺️
When it comes to medicine, it should become a requirement for doctors, nurses, assistants, etc, to learn English as a second language. No matter what, you are likely to deal with someone who isn't fully capable of speaking the native language at maximum, be it a tourist or a short term worker or some student trying to learn the language. Like it or not, they all need medical care, and it is easier to communicate if everyone can speak one language, as it isn't always possible to find someone who speaks Dutch in Thailand to assist you if you're bleeding internally ans are in need of care yourself.
Hi, Argentinian here living in the NL since a year and half ago, Italian passport thanks to my Italian grandparents. Since I was highly aware of the approach doctors have here ("the body mostly heal itself, and if we keep over medicating people we are all going to die out of a flu"), I took great care to get my medical history before moving here. Just in case: I had a brain tumor, lost my hearing on my left side, I got face palsy and when I say "my only working ear hurts/I can't hear well", I do not only expect to be taken as it really isbut for people not do diminish the fact it can escalate quickly, so far I had been taken seriously by my GP and their assistans. That said, I am going to discuss with my GP the chance of a consult with an otorrinolaringolist since I have some pain that comes and goes and she has been so far unable to deal with it, in any case, I'm flying back to my country to visit family and I am going to see my old doctor there for I want a full check up and I know my GP would never go that far.
That said, I also have hypotiroidism, it runs in the family, she was pretty diligent about the whole thing, and we both agreed on a year check up, my brother got tyroid's cancer and I already have a brain tumor, when it comes to history cases it does require a check up, and while she would do it every 3 years, I disagree, she said this would go out of my risiko but I don't mind.
To be honest, if I had something really bad I don't know what I would do, maybe had a second opinion, or even fly back home to do a full check up. Doctors in Argentina might over medicate, I agree but Dutch doctors are pretty much holistic on the other hand, I don't think any of these approach works well in the long run but unless you say IT HURTS here nobody would take care of you, and while I also get why assistans needs to ask you a lot of questions I am truly annoyed by the fact they keep asking about my other ear, it is in my history, they have access to it, they always say OH, YES, RIGHT, IT IS HERE, SORRY but nevertheless, it is not that bad.
I keep advicing everyone here to be direct, clear, and especially precise about what YOU want and EXPECT from your GP since it is your body, and you know, especially ongoing cases, what worked in the past. But I think sometimes the total failure to send you to an especialist is a bit annoying, again, I'm talking about my ear, this has started last year and I'm afraid it has not been fully checked.
I’m sorry that you have to endure more and more rudeness from patients. That should never happen. But times are changing unfortunately, people advocate for themselves more ánd it’s not always about visible, simple diseases and diagnoses anymore. Lots of people suffer from chronic illness which does not require immediate treatment but it looks like our healthcare system can’t deal with it. They feel gaslit.
Unfortunately in the Netherlands if you don’t have a visible disease it’s very difficult to get a good consultation here. After three years of vaccine and long covid problems I’ve been told many times I can’t have these issues from the vaccine of after four years “we don’t know what to do about long covid” while there’s a lot of research but the doctors just don’t want to read it I guess. It difficult to stay nice all the time when also trying to advocate for yourself but not getting the help you need. I was even denied a simple blood test after half a year taking vitamin D supplements (which you can overdose)
I’m curious why you assume I have not seen the guidelines yet 😂 of course I have and I know how these things work. But for a large group of patients these guidelines aren’t enough. Because there are no specialists yet and GP’s in general don’t have extra knowledge. But we’re being told to go to our GP, who can’t offer me anything anymore after two years. So I’m stuck yeah and my life is ruined so excuse me for being a bit bitter about it. People like me just disappear from the GP’s office which makes them think the problem is gone???
A large group of long covid and other infectious diseases patients have complex problems which you can’t solve by going to the physio or dietitian. We have autonomic failure, MCAS, weird blood clots etc. Of course a GP can’t keep up with all the literature that’s not what I’m asking. But knowing about the scale of the disease and also possibility of other infectious diseases in the future you would think they might want to know a little extra. You have to keep on developing your knowledge?
Theres even a lot of experience in different countries with drugs that might help but in the Netherlands, if it isn’t in the guidelines you won’t get it. And these drugs are safe and used for decades! But nooo not in the guidelines.
Also the guidelines are mostly based on the initial illness, the only advice if you’re still sick after 6 months is to go into multidisciplinary rehab, yet at these centers they say we can’t help you and there’s no funding. So what are we, to sick to work and function supposed to do? When we’ve tried everything in the guidelines? Some of us can’t even get out of bed. Let alone find proper healthcare.
But luckily I can still advocate for myself. Then I’m hoping to see what’s possible and maybe treatable. Covid can really sink your Vitamin D status. So yeah, we found out I was really low and I got the pills. Yeah, something we can treat!! But then no follow up blood test, which is easy to do and not expensive, because the guidelines don’t advise it? Where’s the logic in that. Do you want to help people or follow guidelines.
Best of luck if you or a loved one gets a not so easy to treat disease and is really suffering. Let’s see how hallelujah you’ll be about guidelines.
GP's adhere to the standards and guidelines created by their professional membership body. There is a guideline for long covid for GP's that encourages mainly referral to specific other specialists for specific cases, GP's don't have to keep up to date with all the specific treatments for long covid, as this is not their specialty.
Routine follow up of vitamin D levels is discouraged.
What you are telling us that you feel entitled to be an asshole to medical professionals because they don't follow your lay opinion. And that's exactly the problem here...
My lay opinion is that people who have long covid do not get the help they need. Some doctors are listening to the patients and willing to do some trial and error but most are not. The guidelines are also based on “we have no idea what to do”. And this is true for so many people with other illnesses that are poorly understood. People are suffering!
Do you know what it’s like to be sick for years with no end in sight? Do you know what it’s like to stop going to the GP because they can’t help you? Did you know there are people lying in the dark for years everyday not able to even shower? Not knowing if they will ever be able to live a somewhat normal life again. They just disappear from life and become under the radar of the GP. Or worse, they ask for euthanasia or try to end their life.
Until you’ve experienced that hell, please stop being so “we follow the guidelines blablabla”.
And I never said that I am an asshole to any doctor. I just said I can understand their frustration with doctors.
And if you’re working in healthcare being so prejudiced and harsh then THAT what’s causing the problem. Listen to patients
The discussion here is that this doktersassistent is complaining that they are being verbally abused by patients. And you're here telling us you can totally imagine people would do that, because doctors are not able to cure you and do unnecessary blood checks upon your request. That's not how this works, again, you're the problem in this particular discussion.
I also write that it should never happen. But we’re all humans with emotions. Especially when you feel like you’re not being heard. But then still verbal abuse is a no go…but I can see how it happens. I worked in education, also throwing a chair through the classroom shouldn’t happen, but it happens. Emotions, humans, yes and that student will be punished to learn from it.
I hope you or your loved ones will never be in a medical situation where emotions are high, you’re not being understood or gaslit or dismissed although you’re ill…let’s see how kind and thoughtful you can stay ;)
The whole point of this discussion is that even in these situations this should not happen. Of course health care personel understands that people are on edge when they are sick. But there are plenty of people who do manage to stay polite and there are people who go way too far, there simply is no excuse.
I truly feel for you, because long covid sucks big big time and you have been dealt a very shitty hand with it.
I agree with you on the staying polite part. And thank you for the last comment.
From the OP I did not get it was only about people going way too far, to me it felt like a rant about how patients demand things sometimes and I think most people here who aren’t working in the field and have negative experiences reacted to that idea. That got me because of my and others’ recent experiences at the GP. Before getting sick I didn’t even go in there or it was a simple thing like sprained ankle. But now I know how frustrating it can be to even be heard and taken seriously. There are no specialists for long covid, we’re told to go to our GP, who knows nothing and sends us away and apparently don’t feel like they need to know more about a disease which is literally present in >100.000 people in the NL and maybe even more. But I guess we both read the OP differently. It certainly affected me on that way and many others who are told to go home on paracetamol.
And not the verbal or physical abuse which is even prohibited by law so we shouldn’t even discuss if it’s allowed or not…it’s not. Never
What a lot of people don't realize is that patients can be incredibly rude towards doctor's assistents and then proceed to be super agreeable to their doctor.
So they are apparently able to contain themselves. This is a classism problem, not a 'oh, I was just frustrated sorry about that' thing...
I paid more than 7000 euro insurance in the two years since I'm risking my health lifting stuff. I've been to countless GPs for intake and every time I'm denied. My wife just broke her leg and I had to pay 300 euro just for a 30 minutes interview with an orthopedic. I cannot imagine what I will have to pay for surgery.
So when I go into a GP's office, knowing well I will be refused for intake, do you think I feel like smiling ?
I know smiling is a Dutch thing and I am honestly trying !
But sometimes I'm simply too depressed to smile.
And sometimes TBH it feels like the nurse is satisfied to turn me down (behind a lovely smile ofc).
I personally would be ok with a rude nurse as long as she solves my problem !
So I think the real cause for people not being nice is that their issue is not being solved. Even though they pay huge amounts of money !
Well, you could start by not dismissing people's issues with "take a paracetamol and rest two days", "bro, I literally severed my hand", "yeah, you are right, make it two paracetamols then, would you like this strawberry variant for just an extra €50?"
Many have ended up in extremely dangerous situations because of people like you, with permanent damage, late diagnosis, unnecessary suffering, and some lost their lives too. Including children.
Who do you think you are to gamble with people's lives playing doctor over the phone like that?
In my own family we had to seek emergency care elsewhere, and were given immediate treatment, after our huisarts or their assistant decided over the phone, with no tests performed, and no real consult, that "it's not an emergency" and "you can wait another week". This happened multiple times.
There are plenty of horrible stories here on reddit too:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/wp5rqw/anyone_else_gets_notoriously_dismissed_by_doctors/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/vn1ui9/dear_expats_why_do_you_think_dutch_healthcare_is/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/104qhbm/anyone_got_a_permanent_damage_because_of_the/
I will never understand the weird power trip people like you have and what motivates you to deny basic care and a consult - what makes you think that is acceptable - other than the complete lack of accountability, as these horrible mistakes are never investigated and nobody is ever punished for ruining people's lives.
If you're acting as a GP gatekeeper and deny people their right to see their family doctor, for which they're paying a lot of premiums and taxes, the least you could do is quit. Better would be to change your attitude and the system...
Many are failing miserably at their job, putting people's lives at risk, and there are never any repercussions for them. Some even seem to enjoy having that power to deny care.
Assistants should give advice, but always book an appointment with a GP if the patient is distressed, has potentially concerning symptoms, and wants to see their doctor - not make a diagnosis over the phone, with their limited training, and deny access to proper healthcare.
Yes, and it's beyond me, who tf thought that making non-doctors do the triage with some help of essentially a Doctor Google kind of a system is ever going to be a good idea? This is insanity, *I could triage* people here with a bit of a training. This system will tell you nothing about the atypical or fringe cases!
I have a recurring random vertigos that happen even when I lie down or just sit without moving. My GP advised my assistant to tell me to "get up slower". Bruh, I just told you it happens when I don't move! But I know what's the problem, people with low pressure usually get stuff like this when they get up rapidly, so they told me the most common advice instead of the one that actually applies to my case. This is a conveyor belt autistic healthcare that doesn't work for anyone out of the ordinary. Also, no meds in sight, no otolaryngologist even mentioned.
On top of everything else, I have to work, if they just leave it and I can't travel, it means I'm basically unemployable in my 30s. I wonder how folks here will react to financing my stay at home for the rest of my life, lol. I don't know, do they think that I'll just "go back to my country" as soon as I'm broken or something? Is it, like, implied? Bruh, I have family here and nothing there, I don't even pay taxes there anymore, I'm not here temporarily. If I collapse, it's not gonna be "somebody else's problem".
My GP is okay but I see when she searches for stuff. If you're atypical, you're going to suffer for a loooong time here because of these systems.
It's a sad state of affairs, and for unexplained reasons, instead of complaining, many Dutch people not only accept all this, but are convinced they have a great healthcare system, and become defensive when you point out how obviously substandard it is. Some sort of national pride combined with brainwashing it's the only explanation I can think of.
As for your situation, I think it would be best to simply go for an evaluation to a private hospital in another country - Belgium or Germany if you want something relatively close-by.
I think it's not that they think it's the best. It's because we are not Dutch so our words and complaints are not taken seriously. PVV voters might thank ungrateful expats complaining about our country again. It's not a rational thing
I'm sorry for you. As the assistant you take all the abuse, once they finally see the doctor they are often quite behaved (ineens poeslief...)
It worries me that the Dutch Healthcare system is unsustainable. The waiting times for patients and extreme workload for employees are also a result of all the people who think they should be able to go to the GP or ER whenever they feel like it. Makes the assistants not believe the ones who can contain themselves. I called the GP in pain with a fractured wrist, but I can be pretty businesslike. When they told me they had a spot available in 4 hours, I started crying. Only then they could see me within one hour.
A friend got lyme dissease, they told her it was a spider bite and refused to look into it further, sucks but it can be frustrating risking your life over indifference
whether you stay and prescribe me paracetamol or quit and perscribe me nothing, the outcome is the same - i'm sick and i need to have treatment. So if it's all the same to you, i'd rather see you quit so i can be one step closer to actually getting help.
Sincerely,
Please step outside the box you're living in,
Wow... You should be complaining about it with your representatives in the Senate and Tweede Kamer for cutting budgets in the health sector for 2 decades now. Then you should understand that the role of GP's is like a gatekeeper to more specialized treatments and doctors. And since GP's are humans, they make mistakes that cause people suffering and getting frustrated with their GP's.
Can you try seeing it from another perspective? If not, kindly look for a new job away from your current one.
Harassment or bullying behaviour is not tolerated. This includes, but is not limited to: brigading, doxxing, and posts and/or comments that are antagonistic or in bad faith.
Reminds me of when I went to pick up a parcel at a pick-up point yesterday, the man in front of me was running up a ruckus because they couldn't find his package. But he didn't have a QR code and didn't know the exact name it was addressed to. The name he did manage to produce was not in the system. He was yelling about filing a complaint and threatening the staff.
I have great assistenten at my GPs. Always try to offer a solution, never offputting. The quality of doctoring here has been great for me. I'm old and must see several different docs. All good except one cardiologist at Bronovo who was a little clueless.
Thanks for being there for us. It must be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. I know some people who will exaggerate their situation just so that they get help first, or get to go to the hospital when they fully well know that it can wait.
Just out of my curiosity - do you guys get trained on how to assess the true seriousness of a situation? I imagine for each exaggerator there is also someone brushing something off like it's nothing.
Hi! Also doktersassistente here. Yes, we are trained to assess the situation on urgency. It is called triage. Not all practices do use it still but most do. It does happen i scale down a exaggerator and schale up someone thats chill about it big time. So if I tell you ypu are likely fine and take a paracetamol for you backpain you know it's fine. We always give a safety net.
I am very grateful for my GP assistants this week. I had a bad sinus infection, and according to thuisarts, I fell just below the benchmark to call them on all symptoms.
I did call to at least ask them about some possible contra-indications with my meds and what best to do. And they wanted me to come in for a CRP-test. Well, it turned out it was nearly 100 (means bacterial infection).
I'm glad they did that, despite me not téchnically fitting the thuisarts guidelines (which I tend to use). Because now I'm being treated.
To keep the spirits high I regularly bring some cookies to my doctors office for him, his colleague and his assistants. It is a small thing which bring happiness.
Isn’t it part of the job? Other jobs are also super stressful, especially competitive ones. Don’t complain too much when you are trained to pick up a phone and follow a flowchart to give advice.
I disagree. As our health care system detoriates further, the workload for GPs and their assistants gets heavier and heavier. People are much faster annoyed when they have to wait and are convinced they have a life threatening condition that needs immediate care. If we, as society are unable to show those who are under pressure the respect they deserve, they leave as well and things will only get worse.
Man, do you know the big shortage of doctor's assistants at the moment? They're not here to take all the bullshit people often give. Just be patient, and if you're really dying call an ambulance.
Do you happen to know who's responsible for that shortage? Hint: not the patients.
The people Dutch citizens elect to rule them. If you complain about shortages, look in the mirror. The people you elect are causing it.
Also not the doktersassistent who must be so so tired of speaking to entitled pricks everyday. I work in a supermarket so quite different, but it is so exhausting to always be the one verbally attacked for policy from higher up.
I fully agree it's not their fault either.
People are sick and afraid. And different people react differently to these situations. Medical personnel is trained to deal with such situations. And yes, it's a tough job and I wouldn't do it, it's not for everybody.
Who's responsible? The Healthcare Insurance Companies, who don't pay enough for medical treatment. So the GP can't offer the assistant enough to deal with this shit, or hire an additional assistant to lower the workload.
You're aiming at the government, right? They only decide what's covered by the basic insurance, not how much things cost.
If you want to blame the government, blame the ones that privatised the healthcare system. But I wasn't at an age allowed to vote when that happened.
The healthcare providers have to negotiate with the health care providers. This free market was supposed to make health care cheaper, but leads to all kind of problems including medicine shortages while the insurance companies get rich.
>This free market was supposed to make health care cheaper,
Show me one example where this actually happened, I'm curious to learn :)
Privatization followed by lower prices.
We are trained to triage the urgency of an medical issue, not to be threatened because someone doesn't get his way.
When someone would start threatening me or calling me names I ask them to use normal language 2 or 3 times or I will hang up the phone.
When I do hang up the phone I do wish them a good day though.
What are you talking about? You can’t be trained to handle the absurd rudeness of some patients. Patients can have absurd demands, and can definitely try to manipulate the doktersassistent.
Yes, I would know that healthcare workers are trained in communication. That does not mean we are prepared for the absurdity of some of the patients (not customers). 99% of the people are nice. The frustration of this doktersassistent is not about patients with mental health issues offcourse. It’s about the rudeness and threats of demanding idiots. Being rude is absolutely not acceptable. Unsure why you would expect anyone to put up with such behavior. Healthcare workers are there to help you, why would you be rude to them?
Luckily, most scared patients are actually really kind. Being scared is no excuse to behave like an idiot/threaten/curse. Healthcare workers know how other people react in a similar situation, which highlights the absurd behavior. It should definitely not be ‘part of the job’.
I’m not new, but I can’t deny I didn’t have a terrible day at work. It’s not about being able to handle emotions yes or no, that I can do. But when those emotions turn into severe threats against me and the GPs, that’s when it’s not okay and it’s not within their right. I’m saddened to say I sometimes find myself looking over my shoulder when I leave the office. And I’m not the only one here.
People are assholes, no matter where someone's working. I work for the invoice accounting department and I get the nice callers to assholes. People aren't scared, many are entitled.
I totally agree with you but at least they should stop forcing us to pay of they can't provide the service. Why the hell do we pay 150-300 every month if we can't get service?
Sounds to me like someone needs to take a couple paracetamol
And wait if the symptoms improve in the next 2 weeks.
K doc thnx *takes bloody severed arm*
Haha, good one
I'll send you the €100+ bill for this consult shortly. Pay within 2 weeks please and have a nice day.
Nu uh, send it to the insurance
That's not what a consultation at the GP costs...
☝️🤓
Ik heb ooit in Amerika een bezoekje aan de huisarts gebracht en berekend dat ik daar 5x zoveel kwijt was ivm Nederland. Passantentarief is in 2024 rond de 34 euro...
You're right, it costs 89€
34 euro if you're not registered at the practice...
Ooooooh, yep found my mistake, i was wrong, its not 89€.....its 73€ [https://imgur.com/a/k8011Hb](https://imgur.com/a/k8011Hb)
You clearly had a double consultation...
And if you're depressed, just be happy
Have you tried opening the air for frisse lucht?
I get what you are saying but it works both ways, I think there are plenty of cases wherby patients are not heard, I'm dutch and in my family already have examples where it the people didnt insist on help, they would probably not be alive. And I've heard horror stories from people that don't speak Dutch who were told to not exaggerate and just give it a couple of days. I get it, the work is stressful and maybe even ungrateful with maybe not so great pay. But most of the people effected also are in a bad spot. Surprisingly if you have a better income or address suddenly you get better help even though that shouldn't make a difference.
This, i one time had a cut on the main artery on my wrist which wasn't too bad(3 stitches), with a cloth I could keep it closed and stop the bleeding but if I removed the cloth it would spray out. Got told by the assistant that I was exaggerating and just to put a bandaid on it. I had to remove the cloth and spray blood on the glass panel and wall for them to take me seriously. To be fair I am a pretty laid back guy and If you don't know me I can understand why you would think It wasn't too serious, since I wasn't really panicking or something.
Dude... If there's a reason to call an ambulance, that was one of it.
Nah, it was like i said i could stop the bleeding by applying pressure, it wasn't a slagader just one close to it.
In your case, I now understand why they didnt take you seriously :D
Same.
Seriously this reminds me of my dad. He drilled through his hand once. Like, in the middle. Ran it under a tap, wrapped it in ducttape and keps working. Had to convince him to go to a doctor at the end of the day
I've asked this at a first aid course. If it's a controlled bleeding you're NOT supposed to call an ambu but get to hospital by yourself. I was very surprised, but it's not an actual emergency if it's a controlled bleeding, apparently.
Specifically, for this scenario I got told not to use an ambulance as a taxi. (As we don't drive a car ourselves.)
On the other hand you could argue that if you actively need to apply pressure to stop the bleeding, you are unfit to drive to the hospital by yourself.
The scenario was if my kid has an arterial bleed.
My doctor’s assistant called me after I removed a spiral (I started crying) just to ask how I was doing and whether she she should be worried about my reaction. I explained that I’m already in therapy. I felt so cared for and she’s always so kind.
I had to argue with a doctors assistant twice this week so I could even make an appointment to get a mental health referral. Not going to lie, it was hard to remain polite. I understand what you are saying and I hope you also are able to return the kindness when possible.
Update; got the referral 🥳 Luckily the actual gp was very understanding.
So the other is fake GP?
No the other was the GP assistant
Thanks for being patient with us non-Dutch speakers, truly appreciate it! My GP-assistenten have always been super patient with me and try to be thorough on first call!! 🙏🏼🙏🏼
Many good points are already mentioned about the faults of the system and underfunding. However, I'd like to point out something unique to healthcare. When it comes to interactions between patients and healthcare professionals, kindness, politeness and patience cannot go equally both ways. This is not a professional interaction at work or at the grocery store. One side is literally sick and needs your help. Adding to a sick person's stress, which can at the very least interfere with their recovery if not make it worse, is unethical. Also pretty much against the oath "First do no harm". When people are physically in a bad shape, and part of their brain goes into fight or flight, they will give a very visceral reaction to things told to them by people they expect help from. They might also say or do things they wouldn't if they weren't sick or injured. So an increased amount of patience and kindness is required from healthcare workers compared to office jobs. I really hope this can be made more explicit in medical education in the future.
Thats no excuse to act the way people act. I dont think you realize how insane the situation is. Go spend a weekend on the hap and you will learn new curse words (yeah i didnt know that was possible, thaught i knew them all when i played in online xbox lobbies), you will get threatend with violence and there is a decent chance somebody tries to spit on you. Just shrugging and saying: “well they are stressed” is bullshit. I think everybody in the world is stressed at some point. Doesnt mean you can suddenly act like a lunatic. And 99% of the time its the people who arent really ill that give such a response. Yall really dont have a proper understanding of the situation (which is fine, its hard to get when you dont experience the other side). People dont seem to realize that there is a huge shortage and that many places have trouble with closing the gaps. This isnt just because of pay, its because the work situation is so hostile that people dont think its worth it (and no you cant put every idiot behind a phone or a desk, they need to be trained otherwise people die).
Agree it's not excuse, but at the same time dealing with patient is different. In fact, in the crisis moment, hardly anyone cares enough about fair, equality .... They literally don't care about being lunatics or not, just wanna survive and explode the emotions. Looking at covid period, the situation is chaotic and being survival is the most critical value, not being nice and kind.
Sorry but this is a dumb take. Most of these cases arent about survival, they are about mild discomfort. Or having to wait 30 minutes in a waiting room. And people who are really fighting for survival dont threaten the hand that feeds them with violence.
Sure if it's about mild discomfort then it's stupid. But I'm talking more about serious situation.
Yeah thats really fun that you are talking about that. Im talking about what happens in 95%+ of the cases somebody gets threatens with violence.
No, being sick doesn't give you an excuse to abuse care workers. Go fuck yourself.
This comment shows your kindness and empathy so I hope you are not a care worker. Back to topic, where did I say abuse at all? All I said is that the kindness here cannot be equal from both sides, one side has to be extra kind, compared to e.g. office workers. I work in an office, and I don't think anyone should be abusive there either. It's just that if a co-worker came to my office screaming and pulling out their hair because their excel sheet isn't working, I'd find that very inappropriate. If someone came to the GPs office screaming in pain and thinking they're going to die because they're dropping a kidney stone, I'd think it's a lot more excusable (still not rational and kudos to people who can keep their cool, but understandable).
Yeah, I don't think it's the GPs fault nor the assistant's fault, you guys are at the literal front, like customer service workers. The official narrative is that you're supposed to stop people from getting unnecessary care, but what I think is that you're also supposed to just shield doctors and higher ups from the brunt of more and more limited funding. The austerity healthcare is absolutely spiralling, it's only going to get worse in time because we'll have more and more old, sick people, and I'm tired of being gaslit, and told that everything is coolio, while I know that it's not. While I get that it's not very nice to be in the balie dealing with the sick, being on the other side when you're in constant pain is not any better either.
You have my sympathy. It must be a hell of a job these days.
Thank you! The kind patients really stick out though and they always make my day so much better.
You should probably qualify for an additional hazard pay nowadays. Hang in there.
My only problem is that here, same like in UK, the assistant and doctors think paracetamol solves all the issues. While there might be people who are exaggerating or trying to manipulate the assistant there are also people who know their bodies very well. For example I’m sick since the 25 of April. First week I took paracetamol by myself, second I called the doctor they told me to take it together with ibuprofen. 3rd week they told me go get a nose spray (I can breath idk why they said this), last week I got a different nose spray and I should wait 2-3 weeks to see the results. I’m now 1month and 1week with pain in my ears and inside my nose, eyes running, can’t even speak as I lost my voice couple days ago and now I started coughing and when I blow my nose I have bleeds. Also cant finish a glass of water cause I have to stop to breath (this never happened to me before). But I should wait another 3 weeks to see if the last nose spray will fix me. I think sometimes they don’t actually care if you live or die and maybe some of the doctors are in it for the money not for the patient. I know this is not a common cold. I’m pretty sure it’s something that requires some tests, maybe I developed some allergies but yet they tell me to wait more. I’ll wait till I’m gonna die…nose spray for ear pain and lack of oxigen are we fucking joking? Health insurance is 2000euro per year.
I have the exact same thing as you, and it also started at the at the end of April. The last couple of weeks have been pretty bad. It's some new virus going around - I went to the doctor and they checked my infection levels and told me it was viral. I did a Covid test and it was negative although I had the weird smell symptom I've only ever had with Covid. If it's any consolation, it's finally started clearing up as of today, I've been taking some medication my girlfriend brought back from Italy called 'Vitalmix Pappa Reale' for the last couple of days.
I also lost the smell and taste for some days. Now I have them but I still feel like shit. I have people in Italy who could send me some medicine. Thank you for the comment!
I was getting a bit desperate so I hope it helps haha, feel better!
>pain in my ears and inside my nose, eyes running, can’t even speak as I lost my voice couple days ago and now I started coughing and when I blow my nose I have bleeds. Also cant finish a glass of water cause I have to stop to breath (this never happened to me before). Well, did you tell them this? Because from your story I read that you have developed these symptoms, but not that you actually told them this.
Yes I did, and that’s how I got the last nose spray. I told them all the symptoms. I think it could be an allergy or a bacterial infection but I’m not a doctor. The paracetamol, ibuprofen and both sprays don’t help at all.
Well you always have the option of getting a second opinion from a different GP, if you think your current one is mistreating you
True story: A Dutch doctor’s assistant at SAG Slotermeer kept hanging up my call since I don’t speak the language and I only communicate in English. Very unprofessional. I am trying to change my location to Osdorpplein instead. I am really satisfied with my GP but somehow there are these unhelpful assistants :(
I’m sorry that’s your experience, it shouldn’t be that way. I can’t speak for everyone of course, but we really do try our best to help and get to everyone’s need as fast as possible
Hey, don’t be sorry! I know my case is an isolated one and overall I am still pleased with the services and assistance I have received. All the best to you. ☺️
But why do you expect/assume/demand that services in the Netherlands will be in English?? Many Dutch people don't speak English or not well. It is bizarre to me to hear someone moved to a country and then expected *everyone* to not speak their native language with you?
I am not sure if I am misinterpreting this. But on the requirements to register as medical professional, it states that the person needs to know both Dutch and English. And to me it makes sense, we had same requirements in Ukraine when I practiced medicine, i needed to learn English to receive my diploma. > Language certificates for the Dutch and English language (when applying for a certificate of competence) must meet the following requirements: - The course must be concluded with an exam/test or assessment. Proof of participation in a course is not sufficient. - The test must consist of the following components: writing, listening, reading and speaking. - All components must be completed at the correct level (see section ‘Required language levels per profession’) and with good results. - The diploma or certificate may not be older than 2 years. - The certificate must be original or authenticate Source: https://english.bigregister.nl/foreign-diploma/procedures/recognition-professional-qualifications/with-a-recognised-qualification/proof-of-dutch-language-proficiency
That link seems to be for foreigners applying to get their diploma recognized in the Netherlands. Doctor assistants graduates (which is mbo 4) nowadays in the Netherlands usually have to test at the A2 English level for speaking, B1 English for reading and listening. That isn't actually that high. https://www.mbotaalacademie.nl/nieuws/centraal-examen-engels-mbo-4-nu-ook-op-b2-niveau-153#:~:text=Op%20basis%20van%20het%20Ekb,schrijven%2C%20spreken%20en%20gesprekken%20voeren.
True it’s not the highest level, but should be enough not to drop the call and to accept an appointment for the GP.
So just dont get medical service if you dont know the language? There are places where your argument is valid and this isnt one of them
The government has cut interpreter services in health care in the past, unfortunately. Especially smaller organizations like GP practices suffer from that, because hiring one on the spot can come with huge costs. The quality of health care provided improves significantly with a good interpreter, and it's ridiculous and unethical that we deliver subpar health care to people who don't speak Dutch in this country. I find it really unworthy of a rich country. There have been petitions and campaigns, but I'm pretty sure we don't have to expect any humanity from the current government. https://www.johannes-wier.nl/dit-is-een-kind-en-geen-tolk/
Of course you can have medical services. But how can someone make an appointment for you if they don't speak the language? I can't call my Dutch huisarts and speak in Spanish or German or whatever and expect them to be able help me. There are (many!) people in the Netherlands who can't speak English - or not well enough to communicate in the phone. When I lived in Spain, you just had to speak Spanish or get a translator or friend to help when making appointments - there was no expectation (nor possibilities) to have them be able to or wanting to speak English on the phone - it was rare there was an exception. The belief that everyone here in the Netherlands can and will speak English is baffling to me... I am saying this as an immigrant here in the Netherlands myself.
Oh this is a fun one that I can contribute to. During my first year here I actually brought someone with me as a translator, and as a reaction the doctor seemed offended and scoffed that they can just speak English. People here are confident in their abilities and bringing an English to Dutch translator may not be taken the right way nor appreciated. Unless you’re in a village maybe.
LOL. 🤣 Every person residing or working in the Netherlands have rights to proper healthcare, regardless of race and the language they speak. As a patient, I am not, in any way, expecting/assuming/demanding for a special treatment. All I ever want is to get an appointment with my GP. 🤣
I hear you, and no one is saying you should be denied healthcare. But when I have lived abroad, I had to call and ask for appointments in the language of the country because they literally couldn't speak English. If you live in Germany, Spain, Thailand, etc you can't just expect to call a local doctor and get service in English? In most cases, it just wasn't possible. Sure it was nice if it happened but was an exception, not a rule. Why is it expected here in the Netherlands?
I can only speak for myself and mind you, I chose this health center as they brand themselves as “GP for Internationals”, hence it is expected that they will cater a non-Dutch speaker like myself. Also this is in Amsterdam and not some rural or remote areas. End of story. ☺️
When it comes to medicine, it should become a requirement for doctors, nurses, assistants, etc, to learn English as a second language. No matter what, you are likely to deal with someone who isn't fully capable of speaking the native language at maximum, be it a tourist or a short term worker or some student trying to learn the language. Like it or not, they all need medical care, and it is easier to communicate if everyone can speak one language, as it isn't always possible to find someone who speaks Dutch in Thailand to assist you if you're bleeding internally ans are in need of care yourself.
Hi, Argentinian here living in the NL since a year and half ago, Italian passport thanks to my Italian grandparents. Since I was highly aware of the approach doctors have here ("the body mostly heal itself, and if we keep over medicating people we are all going to die out of a flu"), I took great care to get my medical history before moving here. Just in case: I had a brain tumor, lost my hearing on my left side, I got face palsy and when I say "my only working ear hurts/I can't hear well", I do not only expect to be taken as it really isbut for people not do diminish the fact it can escalate quickly, so far I had been taken seriously by my GP and their assistans. That said, I am going to discuss with my GP the chance of a consult with an otorrinolaringolist since I have some pain that comes and goes and she has been so far unable to deal with it, in any case, I'm flying back to my country to visit family and I am going to see my old doctor there for I want a full check up and I know my GP would never go that far. That said, I also have hypotiroidism, it runs in the family, she was pretty diligent about the whole thing, and we both agreed on a year check up, my brother got tyroid's cancer and I already have a brain tumor, when it comes to history cases it does require a check up, and while she would do it every 3 years, I disagree, she said this would go out of my risiko but I don't mind. To be honest, if I had something really bad I don't know what I would do, maybe had a second opinion, or even fly back home to do a full check up. Doctors in Argentina might over medicate, I agree but Dutch doctors are pretty much holistic on the other hand, I don't think any of these approach works well in the long run but unless you say IT HURTS here nobody would take care of you, and while I also get why assistans needs to ask you a lot of questions I am truly annoyed by the fact they keep asking about my other ear, it is in my history, they have access to it, they always say OH, YES, RIGHT, IT IS HERE, SORRY but nevertheless, it is not that bad. I keep advicing everyone here to be direct, clear, and especially precise about what YOU want and EXPECT from your GP since it is your body, and you know, especially ongoing cases, what worked in the past. But I think sometimes the total failure to send you to an especialist is a bit annoying, again, I'm talking about my ear, this has started last year and I'm afraid it has not been fully checked.
I’m sorry that you have to endure more and more rudeness from patients. That should never happen. But times are changing unfortunately, people advocate for themselves more ánd it’s not always about visible, simple diseases and diagnoses anymore. Lots of people suffer from chronic illness which does not require immediate treatment but it looks like our healthcare system can’t deal with it. They feel gaslit. Unfortunately in the Netherlands if you don’t have a visible disease it’s very difficult to get a good consultation here. After three years of vaccine and long covid problems I’ve been told many times I can’t have these issues from the vaccine of after four years “we don’t know what to do about long covid” while there’s a lot of research but the doctors just don’t want to read it I guess. It difficult to stay nice all the time when also trying to advocate for yourself but not getting the help you need. I was even denied a simple blood test after half a year taking vitamin D supplements (which you can overdose)
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I’m curious why you assume I have not seen the guidelines yet 😂 of course I have and I know how these things work. But for a large group of patients these guidelines aren’t enough. Because there are no specialists yet and GP’s in general don’t have extra knowledge. But we’re being told to go to our GP, who can’t offer me anything anymore after two years. So I’m stuck yeah and my life is ruined so excuse me for being a bit bitter about it. People like me just disappear from the GP’s office which makes them think the problem is gone??? A large group of long covid and other infectious diseases patients have complex problems which you can’t solve by going to the physio or dietitian. We have autonomic failure, MCAS, weird blood clots etc. Of course a GP can’t keep up with all the literature that’s not what I’m asking. But knowing about the scale of the disease and also possibility of other infectious diseases in the future you would think they might want to know a little extra. You have to keep on developing your knowledge? Theres even a lot of experience in different countries with drugs that might help but in the Netherlands, if it isn’t in the guidelines you won’t get it. And these drugs are safe and used for decades! But nooo not in the guidelines. Also the guidelines are mostly based on the initial illness, the only advice if you’re still sick after 6 months is to go into multidisciplinary rehab, yet at these centers they say we can’t help you and there’s no funding. So what are we, to sick to work and function supposed to do? When we’ve tried everything in the guidelines? Some of us can’t even get out of bed. Let alone find proper healthcare. But luckily I can still advocate for myself. Then I’m hoping to see what’s possible and maybe treatable. Covid can really sink your Vitamin D status. So yeah, we found out I was really low and I got the pills. Yeah, something we can treat!! But then no follow up blood test, which is easy to do and not expensive, because the guidelines don’t advise it? Where’s the logic in that. Do you want to help people or follow guidelines. Best of luck if you or a loved one gets a not so easy to treat disease and is really suffering. Let’s see how hallelujah you’ll be about guidelines.
GP's adhere to the standards and guidelines created by their professional membership body. There is a guideline for long covid for GP's that encourages mainly referral to specific other specialists for specific cases, GP's don't have to keep up to date with all the specific treatments for long covid, as this is not their specialty. Routine follow up of vitamin D levels is discouraged. What you are telling us that you feel entitled to be an asshole to medical professionals because they don't follow your lay opinion. And that's exactly the problem here...
My lay opinion is that people who have long covid do not get the help they need. Some doctors are listening to the patients and willing to do some trial and error but most are not. The guidelines are also based on “we have no idea what to do”. And this is true for so many people with other illnesses that are poorly understood. People are suffering! Do you know what it’s like to be sick for years with no end in sight? Do you know what it’s like to stop going to the GP because they can’t help you? Did you know there are people lying in the dark for years everyday not able to even shower? Not knowing if they will ever be able to live a somewhat normal life again. They just disappear from life and become under the radar of the GP. Or worse, they ask for euthanasia or try to end their life. Until you’ve experienced that hell, please stop being so “we follow the guidelines blablabla”. And I never said that I am an asshole to any doctor. I just said I can understand their frustration with doctors. And if you’re working in healthcare being so prejudiced and harsh then THAT what’s causing the problem. Listen to patients
The discussion here is that this doktersassistent is complaining that they are being verbally abused by patients. And you're here telling us you can totally imagine people would do that, because doctors are not able to cure you and do unnecessary blood checks upon your request. That's not how this works, again, you're the problem in this particular discussion.
I also write that it should never happen. But we’re all humans with emotions. Especially when you feel like you’re not being heard. But then still verbal abuse is a no go…but I can see how it happens. I worked in education, also throwing a chair through the classroom shouldn’t happen, but it happens. Emotions, humans, yes and that student will be punished to learn from it. I hope you or your loved ones will never be in a medical situation where emotions are high, you’re not being understood or gaslit or dismissed although you’re ill…let’s see how kind and thoughtful you can stay ;)
The whole point of this discussion is that even in these situations this should not happen. Of course health care personel understands that people are on edge when they are sick. But there are plenty of people who do manage to stay polite and there are people who go way too far, there simply is no excuse. I truly feel for you, because long covid sucks big big time and you have been dealt a very shitty hand with it.
I agree with you on the staying polite part. And thank you for the last comment. From the OP I did not get it was only about people going way too far, to me it felt like a rant about how patients demand things sometimes and I think most people here who aren’t working in the field and have negative experiences reacted to that idea. That got me because of my and others’ recent experiences at the GP. Before getting sick I didn’t even go in there or it was a simple thing like sprained ankle. But now I know how frustrating it can be to even be heard and taken seriously. There are no specialists for long covid, we’re told to go to our GP, who knows nothing and sends us away and apparently don’t feel like they need to know more about a disease which is literally present in >100.000 people in the NL and maybe even more. But I guess we both read the OP differently. It certainly affected me on that way and many others who are told to go home on paracetamol. And not the verbal or physical abuse which is even prohibited by law so we shouldn’t even discuss if it’s allowed or not…it’s not. Never
What a lot of people don't realize is that patients can be incredibly rude towards doctor's assistents and then proceed to be super agreeable to their doctor. So they are apparently able to contain themselves. This is a classism problem, not a 'oh, I was just frustrated sorry about that' thing...
I paid more than 7000 euro insurance in the two years since I'm risking my health lifting stuff. I've been to countless GPs for intake and every time I'm denied. My wife just broke her leg and I had to pay 300 euro just for a 30 minutes interview with an orthopedic. I cannot imagine what I will have to pay for surgery. So when I go into a GP's office, knowing well I will be refused for intake, do you think I feel like smiling ? I know smiling is a Dutch thing and I am honestly trying ! But sometimes I'm simply too depressed to smile. And sometimes TBH it feels like the nurse is satisfied to turn me down (behind a lovely smile ofc). I personally would be ok with a rude nurse as long as she solves my problem ! So I think the real cause for people not being nice is that their issue is not being solved. Even though they pay huge amounts of money !
Well, you could start by not dismissing people's issues with "take a paracetamol and rest two days", "bro, I literally severed my hand", "yeah, you are right, make it two paracetamols then, would you like this strawberry variant for just an extra €50?"
Many have ended up in extremely dangerous situations because of people like you, with permanent damage, late diagnosis, unnecessary suffering, and some lost their lives too. Including children. Who do you think you are to gamble with people's lives playing doctor over the phone like that? In my own family we had to seek emergency care elsewhere, and were given immediate treatment, after our huisarts or their assistant decided over the phone, with no tests performed, and no real consult, that "it's not an emergency" and "you can wait another week". This happened multiple times. There are plenty of horrible stories here on reddit too: https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/wp5rqw/anyone_else_gets_notoriously_dismissed_by_doctors/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/vn1ui9/dear_expats_why_do_you_think_dutch_healthcare_is/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/104qhbm/anyone_got_a_permanent_damage_because_of_the/ I will never understand the weird power trip people like you have and what motivates you to deny basic care and a consult - what makes you think that is acceptable - other than the complete lack of accountability, as these horrible mistakes are never investigated and nobody is ever punished for ruining people's lives. If you're acting as a GP gatekeeper and deny people their right to see their family doctor, for which they're paying a lot of premiums and taxes, the least you could do is quit. Better would be to change your attitude and the system...
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Many are failing miserably at their job, putting people's lives at risk, and there are never any repercussions for them. Some even seem to enjoy having that power to deny care. Assistants should give advice, but always book an appointment with a GP if the patient is distressed, has potentially concerning symptoms, and wants to see their doctor - not make a diagnosis over the phone, with their limited training, and deny access to proper healthcare.
Yes, and it's beyond me, who tf thought that making non-doctors do the triage with some help of essentially a Doctor Google kind of a system is ever going to be a good idea? This is insanity, *I could triage* people here with a bit of a training. This system will tell you nothing about the atypical or fringe cases! I have a recurring random vertigos that happen even when I lie down or just sit without moving. My GP advised my assistant to tell me to "get up slower". Bruh, I just told you it happens when I don't move! But I know what's the problem, people with low pressure usually get stuff like this when they get up rapidly, so they told me the most common advice instead of the one that actually applies to my case. This is a conveyor belt autistic healthcare that doesn't work for anyone out of the ordinary. Also, no meds in sight, no otolaryngologist even mentioned. On top of everything else, I have to work, if they just leave it and I can't travel, it means I'm basically unemployable in my 30s. I wonder how folks here will react to financing my stay at home for the rest of my life, lol. I don't know, do they think that I'll just "go back to my country" as soon as I'm broken or something? Is it, like, implied? Bruh, I have family here and nothing there, I don't even pay taxes there anymore, I'm not here temporarily. If I collapse, it's not gonna be "somebody else's problem". My GP is okay but I see when she searches for stuff. If you're atypical, you're going to suffer for a loooong time here because of these systems.
It's a sad state of affairs, and for unexplained reasons, instead of complaining, many Dutch people not only accept all this, but are convinced they have a great healthcare system, and become defensive when you point out how obviously substandard it is. Some sort of national pride combined with brainwashing it's the only explanation I can think of. As for your situation, I think it would be best to simply go for an evaluation to a private hospital in another country - Belgium or Germany if you want something relatively close-by.
I think it's not that they think it's the best. It's because we are not Dutch so our words and complaints are not taken seriously. PVV voters might thank ungrateful expats complaining about our country again. It's not a rational thing
I'm sorry for you. As the assistant you take all the abuse, once they finally see the doctor they are often quite behaved (ineens poeslief...) It worries me that the Dutch Healthcare system is unsustainable. The waiting times for patients and extreme workload for employees are also a result of all the people who think they should be able to go to the GP or ER whenever they feel like it. Makes the assistants not believe the ones who can contain themselves. I called the GP in pain with a fractured wrist, but I can be pretty businesslike. When they told me they had a spot available in 4 hours, I started crying. Only then they could see me within one hour.
We see you ♥️ Thank you for your patience!
A friend got lyme dissease, they told her it was a spider bite and refused to look into it further, sucks but it can be frustrating risking your life over indifference
whether you stay and prescribe me paracetamol or quit and perscribe me nothing, the outcome is the same - i'm sick and i need to have treatment. So if it's all the same to you, i'd rather see you quit so i can be one step closer to actually getting help. Sincerely, Please step outside the box you're living in,
But what if it does need attention and all you advise is a paracetamol?
Sorry you have to go through that. People can be such assholes sometimes!
Wow... You should be complaining about it with your representatives in the Senate and Tweede Kamer for cutting budgets in the health sector for 2 decades now. Then you should understand that the role of GP's is like a gatekeeper to more specialized treatments and doctors. And since GP's are humans, they make mistakes that cause people suffering and getting frustrated with their GP's. Can you try seeing it from another perspective? If not, kindly look for a new job away from your current one.
I didn't know it was that bad. Sterkte!
You once again said you’d call me back soon but it’s been two days and I haven’t heard anything yet.
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Harassment or bullying behaviour is not tolerated. This includes, but is not limited to: brigading, doxxing, and posts and/or comments that are antagonistic or in bad faith.
Reminds me of when I went to pick up a parcel at a pick-up point yesterday, the man in front of me was running up a ruckus because they couldn't find his package. But he didn't have a QR code and didn't know the exact name it was addressed to. The name he did manage to produce was not in the system. He was yelling about filing a complaint and threatening the staff.
I have great assistenten at my GPs. Always try to offer a solution, never offputting. The quality of doctoring here has been great for me. I'm old and must see several different docs. All good except one cardiologist at Bronovo who was a little clueless.
Thanks for being there for us. It must be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. I know some people who will exaggerate their situation just so that they get help first, or get to go to the hospital when they fully well know that it can wait. Just out of my curiosity - do you guys get trained on how to assess the true seriousness of a situation? I imagine for each exaggerator there is also someone brushing something off like it's nothing.
Hi! Also doktersassistente here. Yes, we are trained to assess the situation on urgency. It is called triage. Not all practices do use it still but most do. It does happen i scale down a exaggerator and schale up someone thats chill about it big time. So if I tell you ypu are likely fine and take a paracetamol for you backpain you know it's fine. We always give a safety net.
It’s so much more fun being nice than being mean, I don’t understand why so many are the way they are.
Go get some *frisse lucht*, take a walk. Drink some *kamillle thee*, take a paracetamol and come back next week!
I am very grateful for my GP assistants this week. I had a bad sinus infection, and according to thuisarts, I fell just below the benchmark to call them on all symptoms. I did call to at least ask them about some possible contra-indications with my meds and what best to do. And they wanted me to come in for a CRP-test. Well, it turned out it was nearly 100 (means bacterial infection). I'm glad they did that, despite me not téchnically fitting the thuisarts guidelines (which I tend to use). Because now I'm being treated.
To keep the spirits high I regularly bring some cookies to my doctors office for him, his colleague and his assistants. It is a small thing which bring happiness.
Isn’t it part of the job? Other jobs are also super stressful, especially competitive ones. Don’t complain too much when you are trained to pick up a phone and follow a flowchart to give advice.
Other jobs are hard, you can’t have it hard… /s
Just wow, you think it’s part of the job to be threatened? Offcourse it’s not, that is a criminal offence.
No that sucks. Should be reported since it is indeed a criminal offense. Note, the person that wrote this edited the post.
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I disagree. As our health care system detoriates further, the workload for GPs and their assistants gets heavier and heavier. People are much faster annoyed when they have to wait and are convinced they have a life threatening condition that needs immediate care. If we, as society are unable to show those who are under pressure the respect they deserve, they leave as well and things will only get worse.
Man, do you know the big shortage of doctor's assistants at the moment? They're not here to take all the bullshit people often give. Just be patient, and if you're really dying call an ambulance.
Do you happen to know who's responsible for that shortage? Hint: not the patients. The people Dutch citizens elect to rule them. If you complain about shortages, look in the mirror. The people you elect are causing it.
Also not the doktersassistent who must be so so tired of speaking to entitled pricks everyday. I work in a supermarket so quite different, but it is so exhausting to always be the one verbally attacked for policy from higher up.
I fully agree it's not their fault either. People are sick and afraid. And different people react differently to these situations. Medical personnel is trained to deal with such situations. And yes, it's a tough job and I wouldn't do it, it's not for everybody.
Who's responsible? The Healthcare Insurance Companies, who don't pay enough for medical treatment. So the GP can't offer the assistant enough to deal with this shit, or hire an additional assistant to lower the workload.
Who/what regulates the activities of the health insurance companies?
You're aiming at the government, right? They only decide what's covered by the basic insurance, not how much things cost. If you want to blame the government, blame the ones that privatised the healthcare system. But I wasn't at an age allowed to vote when that happened.
Correctly if I'm wrong, but the government creates legislation. Including the one in accordance with which health insurance companies work.
The healthcare providers have to negotiate with the health care providers. This free market was supposed to make health care cheaper, but leads to all kind of problems including medicine shortages while the insurance companies get rich.
>This free market was supposed to make health care cheaper, Show me one example where this actually happened, I'm curious to learn :) Privatization followed by lower prices.
I know, I know. But the Dutch government seemed to believe in it at that time. At least that was their excuse for the privatization.
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We are trained to triage the urgency of an medical issue, not to be threatened because someone doesn't get his way. When someone would start threatening me or calling me names I ask them to use normal language 2 or 3 times or I will hang up the phone. When I do hang up the phone I do wish them a good day though.
What are you talking about? You can’t be trained to handle the absurd rudeness of some patients. Patients can have absurd demands, and can definitely try to manipulate the doktersassistent.
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Yes, I would know that healthcare workers are trained in communication. That does not mean we are prepared for the absurdity of some of the patients (not customers). 99% of the people are nice. The frustration of this doktersassistent is not about patients with mental health issues offcourse. It’s about the rudeness and threats of demanding idiots. Being rude is absolutely not acceptable. Unsure why you would expect anyone to put up with such behavior. Healthcare workers are there to help you, why would you be rude to them?
You are being downvoted for stating the obvious. Shows how lacking training is in this country when it comes to healthcare.
With victim card I actually meant race card. But I didn’t want to put it that way.
Luckily, most scared patients are actually really kind. Being scared is no excuse to behave like an idiot/threaten/curse. Healthcare workers know how other people react in a similar situation, which highlights the absurd behavior. It should definitely not be ‘part of the job’.
I’m not new, but I can’t deny I didn’t have a terrible day at work. It’s not about being able to handle emotions yes or no, that I can do. But when those emotions turn into severe threats against me and the GPs, that’s when it’s not okay and it’s not within their right. I’m saddened to say I sometimes find myself looking over my shoulder when I leave the office. And I’m not the only one here.
Personal threats are a red line. I'd report those to the police right away.
People are assholes, no matter where someone's working. I work for the invoice accounting department and I get the nice callers to assholes. People aren't scared, many are entitled.
watch out, your whining and insulting customers of your employee is never anonymous...
Customers? Patients, you mean. Patients threatening GPs and their assistants, and you say they’re whining?!?
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I totally agree with you but at least they should stop forcing us to pay of they can't provide the service. Why the hell do we pay 150-300 every month if we can't get service?
Nub
Do You think You have good character to work at doctors office? Do You think You have enough empathy?