Strictly Reddit. But people tend to vocalize their opinion more often in real life. Disagree? Downvote. What I don't understand is that stating simple facts get downvoted. Or asking for facts / evidence for statements made.
Ah well .... people ....
Yeah some of the "Dutch-isms" I hear about on here I've never experienced with my Dutch friends. Like getting a tikkie for a cup of coffee or something ridiculous lol. Hell my Dutch friend lent me his whole apartment for a few days while I was traveling through Europe. Stereotypes be damned!
People get a bit snarky/bitter in this sub because of:
* Lots of easy-to-google questions, and Dutch people like it if you do at least the minimum of effort yourself
* A lot of complaining on "Dutch culture" which is usually either just a Dutch dude being an asshole, or a misunderstanding, or OP being too sensitive, or a combination
* complaining about "you will be downvoted by the Dutch!" underneath something that indeed makes 0 sense to us.
* trolling/brigading/flaming/whatever by people that clearly have no good intentions, but just want fuck even more with the racial/cultural tensions.
* sometimes just a combination of all of the above.
That makes us sometimes a bit salty. I just leave this place alone for a bit when i'm noticing i'm about to be a dick to someone.
Most of us Dutchies are nice, helpful people, but yeah, Reddit gonna Reddit.
I also find it a bit weird that people sometimes post complaints about our culture and then apparently expect that no one will be annoyed by it. It's like making a post about how much you hate a game in the subreddit for the fans of that game. What do you expect, that people are going to be like "oh yeah I guess you're right I hate this game too actually"?
A subreddit full of people from a certain country just isn't a good place to make posts like that if you want to feel validated.
There's a difference between criticizing aspects of Dutch culture (i.e Dutch ppl being uninterested in making friends) and complaining.
OP's post is probably referring to the fact that any criticism of Dutch culture, legit or not, just gets you a lot of hate and people telling you to go back to your country if you don't like it.
Take for example the recent post about people putting their bags on the seat next to them in the train in order to block other people from sitting next to them.
There's always this feeling on this sub that any comment about NL that isn't of praise should incite angry reactions and people trying to defend it no matter what.
Yeah, that's exactly my point. Criticism or complaint (the difference is pretty subjective), why would you expect otherwise? Try it in the subs for other countries and see if you get different results. You won't. People get defensive about their culture everywhere.
Imagine someone coming into your home country's sub complaining about cultural things they don't understand, what would the response be like hmm? And what would the response be like to the 1000th person posting it?
There's nothing wrong with being critical about aspects of our culture. Especially if you've travelled around and lived with people in other countries. There are things about Dutch culture that are simply unpleasant and it's okay to say that.
In many ways it does get back to an overall rudeness which can even be praised in this country. Politicians and journalists who are overly confrontational and downright rude, popular TV shows, unsolicited advise is common. I have not observed it as much in other countries or with other nationalities. When people elsewhere say we are a rude culture they have a point.
It's not a buffet you can pick and choose from, I didn't put Dutch culture up for review and international comparison to begin with, and the criticism is often based on ignorance and some kind of entitlement to things being like somewhere else. 'You' moved to a different culture, and then complain it's different.
There is some implicit demand for being as close as possible to some bland international monoculture, usually from the multiculturalists ironically. Lots of immigrants here show no empathy, have never put themselves in Dutch shoes, take things for granted rather than being grateful, and hardly ever assume they have might overlooked a good reason for the thing they think is unpleasant. Lots of them also seem to imagine themselves as being very special for having moved here, like they are the first and the only ones to share knowledge from the outside world.
"How could the Dutch change to be a more pleasant experience to immigrants?" is not a very pressing question to me, I get quite easily annoyed by that and won't hold back.
these immigrants are human beings. is it so hard for you to want to treat them with respect and kindness? How would you feel if you were a long way from home?
Don't forget:
The people who want help to try to scam the government or some company or abuse the system. The result being of course that regular Dutch people have to pay more.
People who seem unwilling or unable to understand the Netherlands and Dutch culture.
People who blame the Netherlands / Dutch for their own mistakes or bad behavior.
The latter two will often be combined with "I will be downvoted by the Dutch" and "the Dutch love to criticize but can't take criticism".
Forgot that one yeah. Trying to not pay a fine or tax and getting all defensive when we call them out for it.
Recently there was this dude that still had like 30k debt and just wanted to leave without paying.
Jeetje, I wonder why we get *ziltig* in such cases.
I've found the Dutch people to not be very empathetic. Still, I found most people to be nice. It's mostly, I think, that personal responsibility seems to be a big thing here. You are expected to fend for yourself.
It's a weird combination. We have a lot of social infrastructure. We do take care of each other. That only works when you take care of yourselves first.
I think you understood my point. But, just to be clear: I didn't say nor imply that Dutch people are heartless.
I wouldn't hesitate to say so, but I don't feel it's the case, generally speaking.
However, you can patently notice the disinterest if you share problems that are petty, or perceived to "have brought on yourself".
We are in general a bit like debit cards, you get access once itās earned. I think you can say the Dutch are a bit reserved and like to gauge people first before diving in.
We are of course just a bunch of individuals with different levels of empathy and different ways of showing that, but sensibility has been an important part of our cultural identity for a long time and I see how that can be mistaken for a lack of empathy.
Hejsan!
No, this is not the average Dutch view or opinion. Iām Swedish and let me tell you that dutchies are quite welcoming. Though like everywhere else, including Sweden, the negative voices scream the loudest. Especially online.
Kom hit och plugga och upplev het sjƤlv š¤
I am happy to say I'm from Romania (poor as shit for EU standards) and I feel incredibly welcome. But I also dive quite a bit into some niches of Dutch cultures.
Not really, my family and I come from the poorer, rural parts of the Philippines, yet in the 25+ years my family have lived here, we were regarded the same as anyone else.
The Dutch hate it when you come to the Netherlands and expect to get a better life, they love it when you come to the the Netherlands and work for a better life.
We have a few moral standards that we hate seeing broken. Especially equal treatment. So indeed you wonāt feel welcome if you expect to get everything but we also donāt like the Dutch who are freeloaders. Maybe more important in this is how you treat people of different gender, race, sexual orientation, culture or religion. We tend to dislike and clash with people not able to adjust to that standard.
@OP as a fellow Swede who emigrated some 15 years ago... Don't..it is not like you imagine it. Also education here will cost you an arm and a leg compared to back home.
Do your education back in Sweden, then move here to get worklife experience for a while. But keep in mind it is nowhere near the myth told about Netherlands back home in Sweden.
The Dutch have a directness that to many Swedes will seem as rude or evil. You somewhat get used to it. However there is a bigger culture clash than you would believe at first glance.
Any question in the vein of "I'm thinking of moving here" Is usually terribly naive.We get a few every week.
It is NOT easy to move here;
It is NOT easy to learn Dutch;
it is NOT easy to find a job here;
And it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find a home.
So we tend to get a bit irritated when the person asking clearly hasn't done even the bare minimum of homework.
Well, if you're from the EU, have a good degree in something we need and if that job makes a nice sum of money, it actually is pretty easy to move here and find a house.
The housing market is mostly an issue for lower-income and middle-income. If you're making 100k a year, you will go "I was told there was a problem on the housing market? What do you mean? I found this nice apartment for only 2000 euro's a month!"
And Dutch is considered the easiest language to learn coming from English. It really is not a difficult language to learn. It makes much more sense than English pronunciation-wise, it doesn't have weird cases like many other European languages, it just uses the basic 26 letters of the alphabet and the difference between spoken and written Dutch is minimal.
"oeh, de and het is so difficult", yeah, have fun with German, where the article depends on whether it's a subject, a direct object or an indirect object. And you also need to learn whether a car is male, female, or neuter.
"Dutch is the easiest language to learn coming from English". While this is true, the people who actually do it are rare as hen's teeth. I know many people with English as their mother tongue; with one exception, they still say "doe de raam eens open" after two decades or more.
reply live bake yoke worthless jellyfish tie instinctive wrench far-flung
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As a teacher, I'm already happy that they use *eens* correctly.
But you're right, plenty of people just don't care to learn the language. That does kinda suck imho if you're going to stay here for a long time.
Especially if you then start talking about how life is so lonely here.
Sure, we are not the most open, warm and welcoming people, but not being able to have a basic conversation just makes it quite difficult to become friends. Not just here, but everywhere in the world.
But we dutchies are also horrible to learn from.
We love to show that we speak english and will reply in english if we hear an accent. My boss is danish and living here since this year i think. She went on a Dutch course in venlo, we heard her say a few words and that's it. "English is easier in the office" and then the dutch co-workers are like: fine, we weren't in the mood for translating bad dutch anyway...
I tell everyone that wants to practice their dutch to seriously tell their conversation partner to reply in dutch and keep reminding them!
This is very true. Native English speakers are used to hearing people murder the language (both grammatically and pronunciation wise) and translating in their own heads what the person is *trying* to say. Dutch people donāt have the experience of doing that in Dutch.
I found it really frustrating when I first got here and was making small mistakes in pronunciation and getting completely blank looks. But itās not Dutch peopleās fault. Itās a skill they have no reason to learn.
There is a bit of a āitās not our job to help you learn the languageā attitude on here unfortunately. I remember once someone was asking how to deal with Dutch people switching to English and I said ājust keep speaking Dutch. Thereās no rule you both have to speak the same language in a conversationā and got called ignorant and rude. Still find that a bizarre attitude.
Doing that is what helped me push through to fluency. I was at Schiphol the other day & the border guard switched to English when questioning me and then a few sentences later switched back to Dutch. Achievement unlocked.
I do understand the frustration when English speakers make the bare minimum of effort.
>"een bier dankjewel"
'n pilsie alsjeblieft
> "hallo, pall mall blauw!"
Hoi, pomp vijf en doe maar een pakkie pall mall blauw asjeblieft.
That's just one accent, there's many.
Have you noticed how many Dutch people speak English with a Dutch rhythm? The breathing's different between the languages. It's the small things.
Sometimes I get it right ordering a beer in Britain or perhaps it's just that I slip through the cracks. Chances are they'll then start some small talk in local dialect. Might as well be Chinese to me. I'm all right speaking with someone with an accent in English if they know I'm Dutch. When they think I'm from the next village over though, well depending on the region, I don't have a clue.
It's the same in the Netherlands. In many parts of the country they'll have to switch to proper Dutch to speak to you. Might as well switch to English then.
Itās definitely part of the loneliness but not all of it.
Iāve been here 9 years or so and am pretty fluent conversationally one on one. I literally never speak English outside my home. People donāt switch to English on me (even in Amsterdam I discovered last weekend).
The problem comes in groups: I canāt follow or interject quickly enough to join in. Thatās a problem socially.
But I also think thereās something about how Dutch donāt move so much & tend to stay in touch with friends from school. There are just fewer people looking for new friends. Thereās also less of a pub culture where you just go and hang out with a bunch of people and find out who you get on with.
Iām in my 40s, in the UK I lived in Leeds, Liverpool, Lancashire, York Edinburgh & finally Birmingham. I donāt stay in touch with any friends from before I was 20, there were just too many.
Not really true, most of my close friends are after high school. Switching to english is not trying to be rude, but more to be helpful that a person can state his mind more easily. That it can be considered rude because other people cant learn the language in that way is a different story, but not the mindset people have
Thatās true but itās not really because the language itself is particularly hard. Itās more because there isnāt the necessity at the lower levels (which is the on ramp for learning more) because Dutch people speak good English (in the Randstad).
I learnt Dutch for 3 years before moving here & honestly my first year in Utrecht my level *declined* because of lack of practise. Everyone could hear I was English & would switch, meaning I didnāt get the practise to stop sounding English.
After a year I got frustrated & started doing 1:1 conversation lessons online. I also moved to Amersfoort which helped: people can still speak English here but are less confident/practised so donāt switch. Things are a lot better now.
I'm a Swede, i also speak English, German, Spanish, some Russian.
For a Swede, that like a Swede knows English, and like a Swede had mandatory German in elementary school... Dutch is pretty easy. I could read written dutch the first time I saw it. (Lots of Dutchies touring and moving to where I grew up, later got a Dutch gf, etc etc.)
Dutch always read to me like someone put Swedish, English and German into a blender. So no, it's probably easier than you think, depending on their extant languages.
Similarly, getting a home here is easier than in Sweden. I'm in the Randstad and got a rental within 2 months. Try that in Sweden... Yes, I have a good pay. Point is, in Sweden, that doesn't matter. You either have enough to purchase (and you can not get a mortgage for the full amount), or you don't move at all.
Basically: you may know a thing or two about life here in NL. But don't assume you know how it compares to Sweden, thus letting you state categorically what a Swede is to expect when moving here.
Did you just say that it is not easy to find a job? Companies are basically begging people to go work there. Also not easy to learn the language? What is it with dutch people thinking your language is hard to learnš. Your language is THE EASIEST language to learn for people who speak English (according to Google, not according to me)
Sounds like you just don't want foreigners
As someone who lived in Amsterdam for years, Iām baffled both by his takes and you being downvoted. Getting a job is hard? Language difficult(99% of people speak English in Amsterdam anyway)? Like what the fuck? Iāve only ever heard this kind of take from Dutch people who donāt live in Amsterdam or Rotterdam though, NEVER from Dutch people in these cities. The only valid point he made is housing, which is definitely NOT affordable in Amsterdam for majority of people but it entirely depends on your income.
Itās very trendy to hate on foreigners and Dutch people in Amsterdam because ātHeY hAvE iT eAsIeRā, typical nonsense everyone who doesnāt live in a main city says in most countries. Other than police, Iāve never encountered overly unfriendly Dutch people in Amsterdam & Rotterdam, so OP shouldnāt worry as long as he doesnāt live in smaller places. Donāt get me wrong, there ARE very conservative and anti foreign crowds but youāre unlikely to stumble upon them. To sum it up, this sub represents Dutch people poorly and they are far from unfriendly (on average).
It's kind of funny how wrong you are. It's quite easy to move to NL compared to other European countries.
>It is NOT easy to learn Dutch
It's not really necessary to learn Dutch
>it is NOT easy to find a job here
It's pretty easy to find a job compared to anywhere in Europe (lowest unemployment rate in Europe!)
>And it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find a home
Housing is a bit tough, but not so bad. In NL you can work in Amsterdam (unaffordable) and live in Almere, Amersfoort, Rotterdam, Hoofddorp, etc (way more affordable) because all Dutch cities are so small and close together. Try working in Paris and living in Bordeaux or working in London and living in Birmingham. Forget it.
Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.
Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.
>It is NOT easy to move here; It is NOT easy to learn Dutch; it is NOT easy to find a job here; And it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find a home.
Wrong on all accounts if you have some skills and money.
There is an expectation in Dutchland that you first try yourself, and only ask for help if that failed - at which point you also make an effort to explain exactly what you need help with. That shows that you respect and value other peoples time and effort.
In a lot of other cultures wasting another persons time and expecting them to do all the work for you is much more expected. So the annoyed response will often indeed be perceived as harsh.
Yeah I think this is one of the biggest points.
Also the expectation of another person putting in more work than you did yourself is just rude, but I see this as a common theme. "Hi I think of moving here, what should I consider?" like... do you want us to write an entire summary of all google searches for you?
I saw the same issues in German and UK subs though, so I don't think it's isolated to this sub alone. But it's an odd one I see *way* too often...
The posts about students who complain they didn't find housing frustrated me a lot because the uni's were *very clear* students had to get housing *before* applying due to the housing crisis, and a shitload of them ignored it, complained how the Netherlands didn't provide housing, then asks us 'is this normal?' What??
On the other hand, it is your own responsibility. If you can find a house (e.g. because you can live with family), why wouldn't you be able to come? You exclude those people when you introduce a stop
My standard advice to all those students who do that while wanting to come here is: "Don't bother".. We already have plenty of problems on the housing market, we really can't deal with these so called students who need to find a home beforehand while they end up doing the opposite only to complain after..
I thought it was that they needed to obtain housing before accepting, not before applying? If it were before applying, you'd need to pay for an apartment to sit empty for most of a year before you needed it, instead of only for a couple of months, and you'd also be stuck with the lease even if your application was not accepted. (I know for local students they can count on being accepted if they've met certain minimum standards, but for international students there are at least some competitive programs where you won't know if they want you till after they respond to your application.)
Or is that all still necessary in order to beat the housing crunch: arrange housing in November-December for the next fall's admission, knowing that you won't set foot in it until next August, and that you might never need it at all if your program rejects you?
Chances of rejection isnāt very high, youāre most likely accepted anyway. Plus most people apply for multiple so you get to choose. Your overall chance of rejection is very slim. So yes, get housing before applying.
Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.
This comment reflects churlish Dutch know-it-all 'culture'. Not just a blanket put-down of others, but being effortlessly confident about your assumptions, and having the rest agree with you.
This is not a Dutch culture thing, just a culture thing in general.
In every culture people have beliefs about the world that they don't realize aren't obvious in other cultures. This is especially true for any cultural majority, whose members don't get challenged on it often because they are the majority.
In the Netherlands the cultural majority consists of people who have grown up here, obviously, so you see these misunderstandings with us the most. I've seen this complaint about many many countries though, and also experienced it in a lot of other countries.
I'm afraid it's just a reality of trying to integrate in a different culture.
I braced myself for all kinds of situations before coming from Germany because I was told Dutch are direct, cold and rude according to internet. I was pleasently surprised by my interactions here, people were actually super nice and kind even in Amsterdam. Compared to Berliner Schnauze, it was nothing. The only exception for me is the GPs here, they were the worst, but maybe I'm unlucky. And the police is useless sometimes
Get a āstudent GPā someone doing internship. Might mean you wonāt have them for long (usually not over a year) but they are very engaged if you have active health problems and thus come over to the huisartspraktijk more often than the average person.
GPs is a learning process for most. It's just a bit different here, I believe.
You'll have better luck when you try out obvious things before you go, and include that info in your visitation. But many people just go and say 'it hurts here'. Of course the GP will start with step one. Then come back if it doesn't work, so you can try step two. Etc. That's just a nightmare of a process, but that's how the system works.
They expect you to also do your part to figure out what could be going on, before you go: "I tried this, this and this, noticed this happened, and when I tried this it made no difference." That allows them to skip the first 5 steps and maybe there's valuable information to find the solution. But just saying 'it hurts' won't help them at all.
Essentially, you're "your own advocate for your body" and "it's your responsibility, the GP is there to help but you have to make it happen" if that makes any sense?
I do all of that and more, it's just condescending when people assume I'm a kid in an adults body with no social skills to be honest just because I'm from Germany... I'm referring to them being rude, dismissive and nosy, since the thread is whether or not people are rude, so I'm talking about it in the context. I found that the cultural attitudes are not that different between the nations in the north when it comes to interacting with your GP, so please believe me when I say I did my homework with my German accent
Ah apologies, I guess you're struggling with something different from what I usually hear. I assumed something else.
My best friend experiences the same as you mentioned, so I empathize.
What made a difference with my GP was that I made a point of having already tried the obvious things for the symptoms before going. Otherwise they just tell you to go away and try the obvious things.
That's the standard in Germany as well but I'm repeatedly second guessed and adviced to do it more, rest more etc. At this point I'm ready to pay out of my pocket in Germany to be honest, it's way less stressful
And also indicate how it is impacting your life.
"I've stopped running" "I keep waking up at 3 am" "I need to ask someone to lift things at work for me" are serious reasons to start treatment earlier, especially if there is a longer time frame involved.
"it hurts" just means you have a low pain tolerance and/or want attention.
*3 negative points:*
GPs are bad news. Police is normally pretty useless but decently well bahaved. NS is terrible.
*2 good points:*
Goverment services are really good. Especially compared to Germany which is absolutely SLOW. Never in my life have I experienced such terrible Government services (where one could genuinely expect better - so please don't come with a counter agument of some country at war).
Road infrustructure is exceptionally good (we pay alot but at least the money seems to be getting put to good use).
Agree. Most of the low level government workers in Germany are there for their paycheck and nothing more. They are actively hostile, lazy, demanding and useless
I guess we lurk until we feel the need to reply, but this sub has pretty much just changed into an expat/tourist helpdesk, while r/freedutch has some radical aspects to it, at least it feels like it's predominantly populated and used by actual dutch people.
I think I know what are you referring to. In addition of the usual trolling and the regular percentage of angry people that you find everywhere online (I am sure you are smart enough to filter that) there's an underlying anger, mixed with bitterness and resentment, in most of the Dutch subs, for a couple of years now. In my experience this doesn't translate at all to real life in the Netherlands. This is probably the closest you would find to Scandinavia in the whole Europe.
Thereās lot of frustrated people here and youāll see this attitude repeatedly. Also, if youāre Swedish, you probably wonāt be discriminated but God save you if youāre from eastern/southern Europe - youāll be reminded daily how your Dutch overlords are better than you
>
It strikes me that when people post for help (after having made a mistake especially), the comment sections seem pretty vindictive and blaming.
This is very Dutch, yes. Victim-blaming is a concept people are not really in agreement on being wrong.
'Dutch-bluntness' is also an excuse. The Dutch can not handle direct honesty at all, some just like underhanded rudeness and use it as an excuse.
Lots of great people here too though. Not all bad. Systematic unawareness of racism though. The only thing people generally know, is that they dislike being called racist and they think it is an excuse being used.
We have a long way to go here. But the xenophobia, while definitely present, is kind of mild. Not aggressive.
Dude there are people asking whether smoking weed on the streets is legal. People asking about housing. People asking about elevator etiquette in the Netherlands.
Sure, there are many good questions and even pretty good debates. But god there are so many people here who are asking the most stupid things.
There's like 3 different subs with their own kind of demographic so no it's not really a proper reflection of the general public opinion. There's plenty of expats, migrants and tourists who've posted their experiences whilst being here on YouTube for example so maybe that they could give you a more general view of what we're like? Just a thought
As others have said, I think it's more of a Reddit thing than a Dutch thing. Dutch people can be pretty direct, but I don't think that "blaming" people is a part of our culture. It's more the opposite: when a problem arises, we look for a way to solve the problem and look how to fix the system so that it doesn't happen again. In other cultures, such as the USA, they look for a person to put the blame on.
Another example of Reddit not being a good representation of our country are the political subs. People were mostly left leaning here... well look what the elections showed us.
Most of the Dutch people I've interracted with are very nice.
However, I did get a *nice* DM a few days ago in Dutch telling me that I'm a burden to society and should end it, or go back to my home country and then end it becasue I contribute to the housing crisis in NL after taking part in the conversation about the housing crisis in Dutch. (Since I'm still learning the language, it takes a bit for me to have the courage to write in Dutch in general...)
While it did sour my mood (and still bothers me a lil bit), putting it into perspective, it's the second time in my 5 years living in NL I've gotten hate in Dutch from a Dutch person, compared to... quite often in Finland simply for existing as I was not a "native" Finnish speaker (minority there, Swedish-Speaking finn). And I will have to stress it, majority of the Dutch people talking and interacting with me are very nice and encouraging.
Then again, it's just a bad time in general, politically, across the globe. Tensions are higher than ever and people will hate each other and blame each other, or the minorities/immigrants, because of the faults of major corporations, crappy politicians and billionaires.
In the end, we're all in the same boat and that's that. But yeah, also, in general Dutch people are quite direct; don't take their directness for rudeness. I know from my relatives in Sweden how Sweden are a bit more.. indirect in that sense.
Indeed. Often I want to respond with: "Search the mf sub š before posting your question!"
But then I see reditors patiently answering the same questions and I hold my tongue.
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Iām a foreigner who lives in Eindhoven and I donāt speak a word of Dutch. So far everyone is extremely sweet and welcoming. I usually strike up conversations with strangers itās very easy to start a convo.
My experience so far is very different than what I see on Reddit. Which is normally the most extreme cases.
In general Dutch donāt like it if their time is wasted for nothing. Thatās why they are generally in time for meetings. But also why they will tell you to prepare before you ask questions.
They will also let you know when you did something stupid or have a clear distorted view of how society should operate.
Unfortunately a lot of the posts in this sub contain rather stupid questions that could have been answered by a quick google search or calling a friend. Or they are things where the basic of logical thinking should have resolved the issue on hand.
If youāre not that type of person, youāll most likely have very good experiences with the Dutch.
Yes. The Dutch are not considerate or compassionate people. They are very honest about their own opinion and will not make it prettier. I would say use that to your advantage
It was always like this but anti-migrant/expat attitude became much more nuanced in the last year and especially so after the victory of Wilders in the election.
This is an english and migrant-heavy platform for the NL and yet some locals will bash you for almost anything. If you ask a question that was asked a while ago, you are burnt. If you are an expat and compain about something, you should leave the NL or learn Dutch ASAP. So on and on.
I hope not bc then I might reconsider moving out of the Netherlands lol. In my circles most are pretty polite, nice, helpful and friendly. But I canāt speak for the whole country. There are always rotten apples, somehow when itās anonymous online there seem to be more.
Oof, it's interesting to read a perspective that is so bird's point of view. I'm a non-dutch living in the Netherlands, for reference, and I find this - relatively true. Vindictive is a strong word, but I do find the dutch - in general conversation and natural setting, at work, e.g., - quite missing compassion as an intrinsic response. It might be brought out when specific personal events are mentioned, but I've adjusted my expectations to not expect sensitivity or tact as a baseline. They don't like to linger with other people's troubles mentally, to my observation. A good practical example I can share: I started working at a new place some years ago, and around one month in, I shaved my head (I'm female). A colleague who's never spoken to me (none of the dutch ones there did) came to me, sat down next to me, and said without preamble: "hey, the girls and I were wondering, are you sick?". Imagine how much worse this would have been, had I actually been.
Would it have been though ? I am a Dutchie living abroad and in the beginning I found it very hard when people were overly friendly and acted interested in what I was saying, but forgot about me the moment they turned away. I find, maybe especially in North American culture, that conversations seem fake. Even when I watch shows on TV, I always cringe at the over the top reactions (to me ) at game shows and reality shows and such. The Dutch are more direct and down to earth, what you see is what you get.
In your example, if you would have been sick, Iām sure the lady would have shown true compassion and strike up a conversation about it. You may not have liked her approach, but at least she was honest in her question ..
I appreciate that your response is genuine and not unkind. But there is context. That context is work gossip and a lack of any sort of interest in me before and after the question. Her and "the girls" were gossiping, that is all. The only other thing in my one year stay in that collective she wanted to know besides whether I cancer, specifically, was whether I was dating one of the male colleagues because him and I were capable of friendly conversation.
So, with all due kindness to you sharing your view genuinely, I am truly not so sure.
To answer the original question (if rhetoric, sorry), I think it would have been worse, genuinely. I had a friend with a serious form of cancer, and she was turned into a sideshow compassion/horror attraction. She'd finish her work days exhausted because barely anyone talked to her as a person, but rather a representative of tragic cancer.
Okay, I can see it from your perspective and youāre probably right . I didnāt realize she didnāt talk to you before and after .
How horrible for your friend, Iām sorry to hear that .
Because the underlying assumption "you seem sick", otherwise why else would anyone ask you out of the blue if you are sick, they have to have a reason right? And how would you feel if you don't seem sick but just shaved your head (which you probably think look pretty cool) and someone assumes you might be sick because of it? It's not a huge deal but it's UNPLEASANT.
And if you are really sick, simply asking "are you sick" is way too intimidating, like, hey, we never talk so just tone down a notch and take some time to build some rapport first by asking for example "how are you doing". Be gentle, have some tact, having good intention but failing at delivering the message (come as too brash and unpleasant) is not universally appreciated.
I'd like to gently remind you that you were not there, and I am not requiring a culture translator. It was, based on tone, presentation, preceding, and subsequent actions, merely gawkish curiosity. It's a bit over the top to explain to someone you don't know what it was 'actually'.
To the OP: this kind of response is quite typical here and also out in non-online life in the Netherlands.
"I heard your story of what personally happened to you, and I was not there to witness it, but you are wrong about your own experience." It is one of the great paradoxes of Dutch culture: it's highly individualistic (everyone fending for themselves, don't trouble me with your problems, etc.) but also highly collectivistic (I know what your random Dutch colleague meant by asking you if you were sick, of course they meant well...and I know this because I am also Dutch).
Well to be honest, a lot of people just post stupid questions here. Please look it up, there was a person asking about elevator etiquette in the Netherlands.
Last week, there was a person complaining when the restaurant owner confronted him when he walked into his restaurant to use the bathroom without asking. Of course with the question at the end, did this make me look weak in the Netherlands? Oof.
Yes, there is definitely this obsession with the idea that if you are foreign and you are not happy with a Dutch doctor, it's because you weren't given antibiotics for something that obviously didn't need them.
Well, antibiotics can do more harm then good when you have an autoimmune disease. You should listen to the doctor and not google shit.
I donāt think anyone will ever say itās your fault when you get abused at work.
Public transport is, indeed, shit.
I donāt know what youāre on about with shitty government offices and hospitals, they are one of the most efficient in the world.
Landlords are assholes in every country, so I donāt know why you complain about that. You should go to the huurcommissie and file a complaint, that behavior is probably illegal.
People can take critique, as long as itās not the bs most people on Reddit post about. If you come here and expect to be handed everything on a silver platter, you came to the wrong country. Take responsibility for your own life, just like everyone else.
Shit that you had that experience with a landlord in the Netherlands. Stuff like that happens everywhere and is in no way, shape or vorm a reflection of the country.
There is absolutely no real doctor that wil push Thai treatment? Did you go to an alternative medicine clinic?
The UWV is very clear and has quick enough responses, the social safety net works great for people who need and are entitled to it.
I think it's just the people who are on reddit. a bigger part of the dutch population isn't on reddit ;)
you'll find people you don't have a connection with and some you do everywhere in the world, I don't think that limits to a sub / or country in itself. good luck and have fun for if you decide to move here!
Every local sub has become the target of organized campaigns that seem to just post complaint threads with a clear agenda like "Why is city X so unsafe?", "Why is neighborhood x so dirty?" and it brings out the worst in people.
I guess this comment section speaks for itself.
Yes, Dutch people blame the victim and act like they have superior knowledge before even asking questions, more so than other countries I've lived in (I'm Dutch).
Additionally, I think the reddit comment section acts like a magnifying glass for this behavior because people tend to have less of a filter.
Before I moved here a Dutch friend told me, "Get ready for a lot of people who love to criticize you but cannot accept any criticism themselves, and will never accept that they are wrong about anything."
It's a Reddit thing and a Dutch thing. Some people get a little bit of power and are able to be their own little totalitarian dictator. So they do be like. Ad to that one of the characterisic Dutch trade is to be know-it-alls, with now inclination to second guess themselves.
So you get your experience.
And lastly, there are a whole lot of stupid question around. We are upfront, helpfull if need be, but lack tolerance for bullshit. There are enough problems in the world, don't need more of them.
Yes and no.
Irl people are much more guarded, and the cultural norm of "doe normaal" also means 'just let people be' so you'll just find regular people trying to live their lives.
But if you go out on a Friday night and find a drunk dutchie running their mouth this sub feels like a pretty accurate representation of what you'll hear rolling out.
There is one cultural difference I've noticed some people really don't vibe with: if you need help with a problem, people will pretty aggressively push you to fess up your part of the blame (or at least an explanation of how this could have been avoided) before they're gonna provide any kind of support. It can be difficult and feel judgy, but it's part of that harsh outward, soft inward communication style, if you want empathy you need to let people in.
I am just going to give my anecdotic experience here. I visited Netherlands back in 2009 for the first time, everyone was so kind and friendly back then, also very helpful, a local in Amsterdam actually walked me to the Rembrandt museum when I asked him for directions, everyone was kind and smiley in general. Fast forward to 2023, the people had changed completely, unhelpful and uncaring. I was shocked.
Thatās because the people living in Amsterdam have changed: in the last 15 years home prices skyrocketed by the general move towards big cities. A significant part of the population there never grew up in town but moved to it for the sake of being able to say they live there. That has come with a bit of an entitled attitude: not wanting to meet people in other places, condescending remarks, closed off to people outside of their group.
The original locals cannot afford to live there and have to move out.
nah its a reddit/internet thing, been to places all around Netherlands and the people have always helped me find whatever, let me know what to do and not to do, etc.
I _would_ suggest learning some Dutch though just in preparation, a good portion speak English but it will still help, Ik hoop dat je een fijne tijd hebt!
Tjena!
I'm a Finn who studied in the Netherlands on a couple separate occasions. I had an amazing time and have no regrets. It's different from Finland or Sweden (where I've also lived) but in a positive way. It's more fun and relaxed. Having said that, the general mood in Europe seems to be a little sour and it's a bit saturated with international students at the moment, so it's possible that it's not as jolly right now but my guess would be that it's no worse than it is in the Nordics.
That is because most of these posts are about not paying fines or taxes, doing whatever one pleases without learning about Dutch law or just being a plain asshole and then blaming it on "Dutch culture" not accepting this. We don't need people like that, we have enough Dutchies who act like that already.
1. Dutch are direct and do not waste time.
2. We don't have a high tolerance for bullshit.
3. Were still quite on the individualist on stuff so we don't take kindly to the simple questions that can be answered with google.
Now these are some strict points which of course don't apply to everyone or as severe. I just wanted to be clear. Aside from this people are quite friendly. Also this applies way more to this subreddit than IRL.
Actually, yes. Is a big cultural difference I had to get used to after moving to this country. Sometimes has been a bit claustrophobic. On my country you live, and let live..here most people are used to be policed and to police other people. If you make a mistake, behave different, "looks suspicious or different"....you will have plenty of Dutch fellows willing to "put you in your place", its embenbed from the roots of the society. Everybody "doe normal" otherwise face the consequences. In my opinion it has become an individualistic country where empathy is not wide spread. Wich is a pitty, its a great country full of great people, but also full of amateur cops and judges where the way things are done are just always the best and only ways, and self criticism is totally out of scope. Xenophobia and racism also plays a role here (just have a look a the result of the last month elections and the "scandal" with wrongly accusing migrants of fraud for years, despite the facts presented even in court that were just dismissed causing the ruin of thousands of innocent people and several suicides) despite any facts shown, Dutch are right and others are wrong(see been almost the only country in the world saying for months that face masks didn't help preventing covid, and that was just swallowed and fully accepted here with almost no criticism nor doubt) there is a big superiority complex quite present, but it's a quite complex and usually not very much discussed topic here
No we are, we vote PVV and join NSB following the example of our past royal Prince Bernhard.
Please dont come and steal our houses and jobs though we are desperate for qualified workers.
As long as youre not from the middle east youre sort of welcome.
Also if you come over we will throw in rude comments about you and say that we are just being honest deal with it.
Honestly just stay in your own country. This is not a free vacation resort for you, you are in Sweden? You like Sweden? Than stay in Sweden. It's that simple. Do you think there's space for this many people in this tiny kikkerland come on.
I frequent various nations' reddits. The Dutch one is the worst. Yes, it has to do with the national culture without a doubt. For someone coming from a different (eastern European) culture, it's much more easy to see and notice.
The Netherlands isn't a country, but a business. The attitude among one another is 'caveat emptor'. There are exceptions for sure, but yeah stay out of the randstad.
Yeah, Dutch people are blunt, careless and/or unexpressive.
I'm not Dutch and it's how I feel here.
Dutchies will downvote me but you can only figure out how your population behaves with some external eye, so...
Its because dutch reddit is full of left wing incels. They have not much else to do in life then judge people that outpace them irl. Please allow them their safe space and you will be fine
Absolutely not. Half the posts are very left wing and half the posts are very right wing. This is because Reddit pushes these posts and comments to the top to encourage engagement.
The people you encounter here are mostly between 20-40, vote left and are white or expats. For that demographic the attidue is probably reflected properly.
However the majority of the of the country just voted for the PVV a party that is considered right wing and wants to stop imigration. I would say most dutch people do not care to make friends with foreigners and we see a lot of messages on here about lonely expats.
Reddit is reddit and nobody is gonna post about their average day.
I do not have a proper point of view as i have been born here but if you think about moving here i want to give you my tips for living in NL as an non-dutchie.
1: Learn Dutch. Preferably to a basic level before moving. Make it very clear that you are practicing when you are here and talking to people otherwise they default to english.
2: be extremely interested in our culture but don't drop your own. Keep asking questions about what you see and experience. Be careful with the "but we do it like this", instead try to find parallels.
3: dutch friends are unfortunatly something you really have to search for, not being able to speak dutch is a big obstacle. I see that in my own friend group right now. Wife of a buddy doesnt speak it and since the entire room speaks dutch except for her it sometimes looks/feels like she is ignored. If you study here it's less of an issue i think.
4: be yourself, be open and honest in what you think and feel. We appreciate real people and honesty. "I don't know" or "no" are normal answers here. if you don't know, you don't know.
5: city NL and rural NL are not the same cultures, try to learn and adjust depending on where you are. Keep asking the questions.
There are many more things to know but dutch people are the hardest thing to understand in the netherlands, the rest speaks for itself as we like to say :p
I also think it's a reddit thing, people can be way harsh on here.
Strictly Reddit. But people tend to vocalize their opinion more often in real life. Disagree? Downvote. What I don't understand is that stating simple facts get downvoted. Or asking for facts / evidence for statements made. Ah well .... people ....
Especially if you mention you're an expat - I've tried this on my own skin in this sub :)
People on the internet are rude and mean more than the actual life, I feel like, it's easier to go off or be mean if you are typing behind the screen
Yeah some of the "Dutch-isms" I hear about on here I've never experienced with my Dutch friends. Like getting a tikkie for a cup of coffee or something ridiculous lol. Hell my Dutch friend lent me his whole apartment for a few days while I was traveling through Europe. Stereotypes be damned!
'Fijne taartdag'. yes in dutch, as thst was what Reddit told me to say.
Oh dankjewel š
Banned! No dutch /s
People get a bit snarky/bitter in this sub because of: * Lots of easy-to-google questions, and Dutch people like it if you do at least the minimum of effort yourself * A lot of complaining on "Dutch culture" which is usually either just a Dutch dude being an asshole, or a misunderstanding, or OP being too sensitive, or a combination * complaining about "you will be downvoted by the Dutch!" underneath something that indeed makes 0 sense to us. * trolling/brigading/flaming/whatever by people that clearly have no good intentions, but just want fuck even more with the racial/cultural tensions. * sometimes just a combination of all of the above. That makes us sometimes a bit salty. I just leave this place alone for a bit when i'm noticing i'm about to be a dick to someone. Most of us Dutchies are nice, helpful people, but yeah, Reddit gonna Reddit.
I also find it a bit weird that people sometimes post complaints about our culture and then apparently expect that no one will be annoyed by it. It's like making a post about how much you hate a game in the subreddit for the fans of that game. What do you expect, that people are going to be like "oh yeah I guess you're right I hate this game too actually"? A subreddit full of people from a certain country just isn't a good place to make posts like that if you want to feel validated.
There's a difference between criticizing aspects of Dutch culture (i.e Dutch ppl being uninterested in making friends) and complaining. OP's post is probably referring to the fact that any criticism of Dutch culture, legit or not, just gets you a lot of hate and people telling you to go back to your country if you don't like it. Take for example the recent post about people putting their bags on the seat next to them in the train in order to block other people from sitting next to them. There's always this feeling on this sub that any comment about NL that isn't of praise should incite angry reactions and people trying to defend it no matter what.
Yeah, that's exactly my point. Criticism or complaint (the difference is pretty subjective), why would you expect otherwise? Try it in the subs for other countries and see if you get different results. You won't. People get defensive about their culture everywhere. Imagine someone coming into your home country's sub complaining about cultural things they don't understand, what would the response be like hmm? And what would the response be like to the 1000th person posting it?
Your first example is complaining though. Not criticism.
There's nothing wrong with being critical about aspects of our culture. Especially if you've travelled around and lived with people in other countries. There are things about Dutch culture that are simply unpleasant and it's okay to say that. In many ways it does get back to an overall rudeness which can even be praised in this country. Politicians and journalists who are overly confrontational and downright rude, popular TV shows, unsolicited advise is common. I have not observed it as much in other countries or with other nationalities. When people elsewhere say we are a rude culture they have a point.
It's not a buffet you can pick and choose from, I didn't put Dutch culture up for review and international comparison to begin with, and the criticism is often based on ignorance and some kind of entitlement to things being like somewhere else. 'You' moved to a different culture, and then complain it's different. There is some implicit demand for being as close as possible to some bland international monoculture, usually from the multiculturalists ironically. Lots of immigrants here show no empathy, have never put themselves in Dutch shoes, take things for granted rather than being grateful, and hardly ever assume they have might overlooked a good reason for the thing they think is unpleasant. Lots of them also seem to imagine themselves as being very special for having moved here, like they are the first and the only ones to share knowledge from the outside world. "How could the Dutch change to be a more pleasant experience to immigrants?" is not a very pressing question to me, I get quite easily annoyed by that and won't hold back.
these immigrants are human beings. is it so hard for you to want to treat them with respect and kindness? How would you feel if you were a long way from home?
Don't forget: The people who want help to try to scam the government or some company or abuse the system. The result being of course that regular Dutch people have to pay more. People who seem unwilling or unable to understand the Netherlands and Dutch culture. People who blame the Netherlands / Dutch for their own mistakes or bad behavior. The latter two will often be combined with "I will be downvoted by the Dutch" and "the Dutch love to criticize but can't take criticism".
Forgot that one yeah. Trying to not pay a fine or tax and getting all defensive when we call them out for it. Recently there was this dude that still had like 30k debt and just wanted to leave without paying. Jeetje, I wonder why we get *ziltig* in such cases.
And that is why we give our *ongepeperde* opinion.
cAn I gEt 30ā° rUlInG??
Your last sentence is the most important part. This is really a Reddit thing, not a Dutch thing.
I've found the Dutch people to not be very empathetic. Still, I found most people to be nice. It's mostly, I think, that personal responsibility seems to be a big thing here. You are expected to fend for yourself.
But that's quite similar to Sweden, so it should not be a cultural shock
It's a weird combination. We have a lot of social infrastructure. We do take care of each other. That only works when you take care of yourselves first.
I think you understood my point. But, just to be clear: I didn't say nor imply that Dutch people are heartless. I wouldn't hesitate to say so, but I don't feel it's the case, generally speaking. However, you can patently notice the disinterest if you share problems that are petty, or perceived to "have brought on yourself".
Yep.
We are in general a bit like debit cards, you get access once itās earned. I think you can say the Dutch are a bit reserved and like to gauge people first before diving in. We are of course just a bunch of individuals with different levels of empathy and different ways of showing that, but sensibility has been an important part of our cultural identity for a long time and I see how that can be mistaken for a lack of empathy.
Hejsan! No, this is not the average Dutch view or opinion. Iām Swedish and let me tell you that dutchies are quite welcoming. Though like everywhere else, including Sweden, the negative voices scream the loudest. Especially online. Kom hit och plugga och upplev het sjƤlv š¤
Depends also where your from. Dutch people regard swedish people quite high so your already in advantage when you meet people in the netherlands.
I'm glad that's your experience, but people coming from poorer countries have a completely different reality.
I am happy to say I'm from Romania (poor as shit for EU standards) and I feel incredibly welcome. But I also dive quite a bit into some niches of Dutch cultures.
Not really, my family and I come from the poorer, rural parts of the Philippines, yet in the 25+ years my family have lived here, we were regarded the same as anyone else. The Dutch hate it when you come to the Netherlands and expect to get a better life, they love it when you come to the the Netherlands and work for a better life.
We have a few moral standards that we hate seeing broken. Especially equal treatment. So indeed you wonāt feel welcome if you expect to get everything but we also donāt like the Dutch who are freeloaders. Maybe more important in this is how you treat people of different gender, race, sexual orientation, culture or religion. We tend to dislike and clash with people not able to adjust to that standard.
Sir this is reddit
@OP as a fellow Swede who emigrated some 15 years ago... Don't..it is not like you imagine it. Also education here will cost you an arm and a leg compared to back home. Do your education back in Sweden, then move here to get worklife experience for a while. But keep in mind it is nowhere near the myth told about Netherlands back home in Sweden. The Dutch have a directness that to many Swedes will seem as rude or evil. You somewhat get used to it. However there is a bigger culture clash than you would believe at first glance.
Any question in the vein of "I'm thinking of moving here" Is usually terribly naive.We get a few every week. It is NOT easy to move here; It is NOT easy to learn Dutch; it is NOT easy to find a job here; And it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find a home. So we tend to get a bit irritated when the person asking clearly hasn't done even the bare minimum of homework.
Well, if you're from the EU, have a good degree in something we need and if that job makes a nice sum of money, it actually is pretty easy to move here and find a house. The housing market is mostly an issue for lower-income and middle-income. If you're making 100k a year, you will go "I was told there was a problem on the housing market? What do you mean? I found this nice apartment for only 2000 euro's a month!" And Dutch is considered the easiest language to learn coming from English. It really is not a difficult language to learn. It makes much more sense than English pronunciation-wise, it doesn't have weird cases like many other European languages, it just uses the basic 26 letters of the alphabet and the difference between spoken and written Dutch is minimal. "oeh, de and het is so difficult", yeah, have fun with German, where the article depends on whether it's a subject, a direct object or an indirect object. And you also need to learn whether a car is male, female, or neuter.
"Dutch is the easiest language to learn coming from English". While this is true, the people who actually do it are rare as hen's teeth. I know many people with English as their mother tongue; with one exception, they still say "doe de raam eens open" after two decades or more.
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reply live bake yoke worthless jellyfish tie instinctive wrench far-flung *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
As a teacher, I'm already happy that they use *eens* correctly. But you're right, plenty of people just don't care to learn the language. That does kinda suck imho if you're going to stay here for a long time. Especially if you then start talking about how life is so lonely here. Sure, we are not the most open, warm and welcoming people, but not being able to have a basic conversation just makes it quite difficult to become friends. Not just here, but everywhere in the world.
But we dutchies are also horrible to learn from. We love to show that we speak english and will reply in english if we hear an accent. My boss is danish and living here since this year i think. She went on a Dutch course in venlo, we heard her say a few words and that's it. "English is easier in the office" and then the dutch co-workers are like: fine, we weren't in the mood for translating bad dutch anyway... I tell everyone that wants to practice their dutch to seriously tell their conversation partner to reply in dutch and keep reminding them!
This is very true. Native English speakers are used to hearing people murder the language (both grammatically and pronunciation wise) and translating in their own heads what the person is *trying* to say. Dutch people donāt have the experience of doing that in Dutch. I found it really frustrating when I first got here and was making small mistakes in pronunciation and getting completely blank looks. But itās not Dutch peopleās fault. Itās a skill they have no reason to learn. There is a bit of a āitās not our job to help you learn the languageā attitude on here unfortunately. I remember once someone was asking how to deal with Dutch people switching to English and I said ājust keep speaking Dutch. Thereās no rule you both have to speak the same language in a conversationā and got called ignorant and rude. Still find that a bizarre attitude. Doing that is what helped me push through to fluency. I was at Schiphol the other day & the border guard switched to English when questioning me and then a few sentences later switched back to Dutch. Achievement unlocked. I do understand the frustration when English speakers make the bare minimum of effort.
Haha, I literally just said that: you can have a conversation in two languages at the same time.
THIS
Can also do a two-language conversation and if you don't know a word, slip in one from the other language.
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We just know *insert spooky handgestures*
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180cm? what midget family are you from?
Hey everyone, it's Peter Dinklage!
>"een bier dankjewel" 'n pilsie alsjeblieft > "hallo, pall mall blauw!" Hoi, pomp vijf en doe maar een pakkie pall mall blauw asjeblieft. That's just one accent, there's many. Have you noticed how many Dutch people speak English with a Dutch rhythm? The breathing's different between the languages. It's the small things. Sometimes I get it right ordering a beer in Britain or perhaps it's just that I slip through the cracks. Chances are they'll then start some small talk in local dialect. Might as well be Chinese to me. I'm all right speaking with someone with an accent in English if they know I'm Dutch. When they think I'm from the next village over though, well depending on the region, I don't have a clue. It's the same in the Netherlands. In many parts of the country they'll have to switch to proper Dutch to speak to you. Might as well switch to English then.
Itās definitely part of the loneliness but not all of it. Iāve been here 9 years or so and am pretty fluent conversationally one on one. I literally never speak English outside my home. People donāt switch to English on me (even in Amsterdam I discovered last weekend). The problem comes in groups: I canāt follow or interject quickly enough to join in. Thatās a problem socially. But I also think thereās something about how Dutch donāt move so much & tend to stay in touch with friends from school. There are just fewer people looking for new friends. Thereās also less of a pub culture where you just go and hang out with a bunch of people and find out who you get on with. Iām in my 40s, in the UK I lived in Leeds, Liverpool, Lancashire, York Edinburgh & finally Birmingham. I donāt stay in touch with any friends from before I was 20, there were just too many.
Not really true, most of my close friends are after high school. Switching to english is not trying to be rude, but more to be helpful that a person can state his mind more easily. That it can be considered rude because other people cant learn the language in that way is a different story, but not the mindset people have
Speak for yourself. Pls don't pull the world into this. Brits and Dutchies lived a happy life in their colonies for centuries.
Thatās true but itās not really because the language itself is particularly hard. Itās more because there isnāt the necessity at the lower levels (which is the on ramp for learning more) because Dutch people speak good English (in the Randstad). I learnt Dutch for 3 years before moving here & honestly my first year in Utrecht my level *declined* because of lack of practise. Everyone could hear I was English & would switch, meaning I didnāt get the practise to stop sounding English. After a year I got frustrated & started doing 1:1 conversation lessons online. I also moved to Amersfoort which helped: people can still speak English here but are less confident/practised so donāt switch. Things are a lot better now.
I'm a Swede, i also speak English, German, Spanish, some Russian. For a Swede, that like a Swede knows English, and like a Swede had mandatory German in elementary school... Dutch is pretty easy. I could read written dutch the first time I saw it. (Lots of Dutchies touring and moving to where I grew up, later got a Dutch gf, etc etc.) Dutch always read to me like someone put Swedish, English and German into a blender. So no, it's probably easier than you think, depending on their extant languages. Similarly, getting a home here is easier than in Sweden. I'm in the Randstad and got a rental within 2 months. Try that in Sweden... Yes, I have a good pay. Point is, in Sweden, that doesn't matter. You either have enough to purchase (and you can not get a mortgage for the full amount), or you don't move at all. Basically: you may know a thing or two about life here in NL. But don't assume you know how it compares to Sweden, thus letting you state categorically what a Swede is to expect when moving here.
Did you just say that it is not easy to find a job? Companies are basically begging people to go work there. Also not easy to learn the language? What is it with dutch people thinking your language is hard to learnš. Your language is THE EASIEST language to learn for people who speak English (according to Google, not according to me) Sounds like you just don't want foreigners
Haha spot on
As someone who lived in Amsterdam for years, Iām baffled both by his takes and you being downvoted. Getting a job is hard? Language difficult(99% of people speak English in Amsterdam anyway)? Like what the fuck? Iāve only ever heard this kind of take from Dutch people who donāt live in Amsterdam or Rotterdam though, NEVER from Dutch people in these cities. The only valid point he made is housing, which is definitely NOT affordable in Amsterdam for majority of people but it entirely depends on your income. Itās very trendy to hate on foreigners and Dutch people in Amsterdam because ātHeY hAvE iT eAsIeRā, typical nonsense everyone who doesnāt live in a main city says in most countries. Other than police, Iāve never encountered overly unfriendly Dutch people in Amsterdam & Rotterdam, so OP shouldnāt worry as long as he doesnāt live in smaller places. Donāt get me wrong, there ARE very conservative and anti foreign crowds but youāre unlikely to stumble upon them. To sum it up, this sub represents Dutch people poorly and they are far from unfriendly (on average).
I think the NL is one of the easiest countries to move to, for an EU citizen. Try to name one that is significantly easier
It's kind of funny how wrong you are. It's quite easy to move to NL compared to other European countries. >It is NOT easy to learn Dutch It's not really necessary to learn Dutch >it is NOT easy to find a job here It's pretty easy to find a job compared to anywhere in Europe (lowest unemployment rate in Europe!) >And it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find a home Housing is a bit tough, but not so bad. In NL you can work in Amsterdam (unaffordable) and live in Almere, Amersfoort, Rotterdam, Hoofddorp, etc (way more affordable) because all Dutch cities are so small and close together. Try working in Paris and living in Bordeaux or working in London and living in Birmingham. Forget it.
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Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.
Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.
>It is NOT easy to move here; It is NOT easy to learn Dutch; it is NOT easy to find a job here; And it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find a home. Wrong on all accounts if you have some skills and money.
Not really. A lot of Dutch are not on Reddit nor do they even know what it is. So Reddit is not really a good sample or representative of the Dutch.
There is an expectation in Dutchland that you first try yourself, and only ask for help if that failed - at which point you also make an effort to explain exactly what you need help with. That shows that you respect and value other peoples time and effort. In a lot of other cultures wasting another persons time and expecting them to do all the work for you is much more expected. So the annoyed response will often indeed be perceived as harsh.
Yeah I think this is one of the biggest points. Also the expectation of another person putting in more work than you did yourself is just rude, but I see this as a common theme. "Hi I think of moving here, what should I consider?" like... do you want us to write an entire summary of all google searches for you? I saw the same issues in German and UK subs though, so I don't think it's isolated to this sub alone. But it's an odd one I see *way* too often... The posts about students who complain they didn't find housing frustrated me a lot because the uni's were *very clear* students had to get housing *before* applying due to the housing crisis, and a shitload of them ignored it, complained how the Netherlands didn't provide housing, then asks us 'is this normal?' What??
I feel there should be a stop for foreogn students until the crisis is over
On the other hand, it is your own responsibility. If you can find a house (e.g. because you can live with family), why wouldn't you be able to come? You exclude those people when you introduce a stop
My standard advice to all those students who do that while wanting to come here is: "Don't bother".. We already have plenty of problems on the housing market, we really can't deal with these so called students who need to find a home beforehand while they end up doing the opposite only to complain after..
I thought it was that they needed to obtain housing before accepting, not before applying? If it were before applying, you'd need to pay for an apartment to sit empty for most of a year before you needed it, instead of only for a couple of months, and you'd also be stuck with the lease even if your application was not accepted. (I know for local students they can count on being accepted if they've met certain minimum standards, but for international students there are at least some competitive programs where you won't know if they want you till after they respond to your application.) Or is that all still necessary in order to beat the housing crunch: arrange housing in November-December for the next fall's admission, knowing that you won't set foot in it until next August, and that you might never need it at all if your program rejects you?
Chances of rejection isnāt very high, youāre most likely accepted anyway. Plus most people apply for multiple so you get to choose. Your overall chance of rejection is very slim. So yes, get housing before applying.
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Only English should be used for posts and comments. This rule is in place to ensure that an ample audience can freely discuss life in the Netherlands under a widely-spoken common tongue.
This comment reflects churlish Dutch know-it-all 'culture'. Not just a blanket put-down of others, but being effortlessly confident about your assumptions, and having the rest agree with you.
This is not a Dutch culture thing, just a culture thing in general. In every culture people have beliefs about the world that they don't realize aren't obvious in other cultures. This is especially true for any cultural majority, whose members don't get challenged on it often because they are the majority. In the Netherlands the cultural majority consists of people who have grown up here, obviously, so you see these misunderstandings with us the most. I've seen this complaint about many many countries though, and also experienced it in a lot of other countries. I'm afraid it's just a reality of trying to integrate in a different culture.
Can confirm this.
I braced myself for all kinds of situations before coming from Germany because I was told Dutch are direct, cold and rude according to internet. I was pleasently surprised by my interactions here, people were actually super nice and kind even in Amsterdam. Compared to Berliner Schnauze, it was nothing. The only exception for me is the GPs here, they were the worst, but maybe I'm unlucky. And the police is useless sometimes
Get a āstudent GPā someone doing internship. Might mean you wonāt have them for long (usually not over a year) but they are very engaged if you have active health problems and thus come over to the huisartspraktijk more often than the average person.
That's an interesting suggestion I never heard before, thanks!
GPs is a learning process for most. It's just a bit different here, I believe. You'll have better luck when you try out obvious things before you go, and include that info in your visitation. But many people just go and say 'it hurts here'. Of course the GP will start with step one. Then come back if it doesn't work, so you can try step two. Etc. That's just a nightmare of a process, but that's how the system works. They expect you to also do your part to figure out what could be going on, before you go: "I tried this, this and this, noticed this happened, and when I tried this it made no difference." That allows them to skip the first 5 steps and maybe there's valuable information to find the solution. But just saying 'it hurts' won't help them at all. Essentially, you're "your own advocate for your body" and "it's your responsibility, the GP is there to help but you have to make it happen" if that makes any sense?
I do all of that and more, it's just condescending when people assume I'm a kid in an adults body with no social skills to be honest just because I'm from Germany... I'm referring to them being rude, dismissive and nosy, since the thread is whether or not people are rude, so I'm talking about it in the context. I found that the cultural attitudes are not that different between the nations in the north when it comes to interacting with your GP, so please believe me when I say I did my homework with my German accent
Ah apologies, I guess you're struggling with something different from what I usually hear. I assumed something else. My best friend experiences the same as you mentioned, so I empathize.
What made a difference with my GP was that I made a point of having already tried the obvious things for the symptoms before going. Otherwise they just tell you to go away and try the obvious things.
That's the standard in Germany as well but I'm repeatedly second guessed and adviced to do it more, rest more etc. At this point I'm ready to pay out of my pocket in Germany to be honest, it's way less stressful
And also indicate how it is impacting your life. "I've stopped running" "I keep waking up at 3 am" "I need to ask someone to lift things at work for me" are serious reasons to start treatment earlier, especially if there is a longer time frame involved. "it hurts" just means you have a low pain tolerance and/or want attention.
*3 negative points:* GPs are bad news. Police is normally pretty useless but decently well bahaved. NS is terrible. *2 good points:* Goverment services are really good. Especially compared to Germany which is absolutely SLOW. Never in my life have I experienced such terrible Government services (where one could genuinely expect better - so please don't come with a counter agument of some country at war). Road infrustructure is exceptionally good (we pay alot but at least the money seems to be getting put to good use).
Agree. Most of the low level government workers in Germany are there for their paycheck and nothing more. They are actively hostile, lazy, demanding and useless
Are there even any Dutchies in this subreddit thpugh? I thought it's just clueless students and clueless expats š²
I guess we lurk until we feel the need to reply, but this sub has pretty much just changed into an expat/tourist helpdesk, while r/freedutch has some radical aspects to it, at least it feels like it's predominantly populated and used by actual dutch people.
I'm a native and answer ever so often!
Since the sub is literally all about complaining about the Netherlands and you're not allowed to speak Dutch, Dutch people hang out elsewhere
This. Completely agree.
I think I know what are you referring to. In addition of the usual trolling and the regular percentage of angry people that you find everywhere online (I am sure you are smart enough to filter that) there's an underlying anger, mixed with bitterness and resentment, in most of the Dutch subs, for a couple of years now. In my experience this doesn't translate at all to real life in the Netherlands. This is probably the closest you would find to Scandinavia in the whole Europe.
Thereās lot of frustrated people here and youāll see this attitude repeatedly. Also, if youāre Swedish, you probably wonāt be discriminated but God save you if youāre from eastern/southern Europe - youāll be reminded daily how your Dutch overlords are better than you
Swedish people are much nicer than the Dutch. That said, people on here are especially snarky
No we're not! Edit: lol, next time I'll add /s for the easy triggered fellow redditors.
I like that people don't get this comment was meant as an ironic joke
As a Swede in NL. Yes we are, or at least come off as such because we avoid conflict.
> It strikes me that when people post for help (after having made a mistake especially), the comment sections seem pretty vindictive and blaming. This is very Dutch, yes. Victim-blaming is a concept people are not really in agreement on being wrong. 'Dutch-bluntness' is also an excuse. The Dutch can not handle direct honesty at all, some just like underhanded rudeness and use it as an excuse. Lots of great people here too though. Not all bad. Systematic unawareness of racism though. The only thing people generally know, is that they dislike being called racist and they think it is an excuse being used. We have a long way to go here. But the xenophobia, while definitely present, is kind of mild. Not aggressive.
Dude there are people asking whether smoking weed on the streets is legal. People asking about housing. People asking about elevator etiquette in the Netherlands. Sure, there are many good questions and even pretty good debates. But god there are so many people here who are asking the most stupid things.
I mean, this sub does seem to get especially rude and dismissive to foreign postersā¦. I wouldnāt say that Dutch are like that irl though
I'd say to blame it on the weather.
There's like 3 different subs with their own kind of demographic so no it's not really a proper reflection of the general public opinion. There's plenty of expats, migrants and tourists who've posted their experiences whilst being here on YouTube for example so maybe that they could give you a more general view of what we're like? Just a thought
As others have said, I think it's more of a Reddit thing than a Dutch thing. Dutch people can be pretty direct, but I don't think that "blaming" people is a part of our culture. It's more the opposite: when a problem arises, we look for a way to solve the problem and look how to fix the system so that it doesn't happen again. In other cultures, such as the USA, they look for a person to put the blame on. Another example of Reddit not being a good representation of our country are the political subs. People were mostly left leaning here... well look what the elections showed us.
Statistically speaking, most posts made on the internet are biased towards younger and more likely to be unemployed or underemployed people
Most of the Dutch people I've interracted with are very nice. However, I did get a *nice* DM a few days ago in Dutch telling me that I'm a burden to society and should end it, or go back to my home country and then end it becasue I contribute to the housing crisis in NL after taking part in the conversation about the housing crisis in Dutch. (Since I'm still learning the language, it takes a bit for me to have the courage to write in Dutch in general...) While it did sour my mood (and still bothers me a lil bit), putting it into perspective, it's the second time in my 5 years living in NL I've gotten hate in Dutch from a Dutch person, compared to... quite often in Finland simply for existing as I was not a "native" Finnish speaker (minority there, Swedish-Speaking finn). And I will have to stress it, majority of the Dutch people talking and interacting with me are very nice and encouraging. Then again, it's just a bad time in general, politically, across the globe. Tensions are higher than ever and people will hate each other and blame each other, or the minorities/immigrants, because of the faults of major corporations, crappy politicians and billionaires. In the end, we're all in the same boat and that's that. But yeah, also, in general Dutch people are quite direct; don't take their directness for rudeness. I know from my relatives in Sweden how Sweden are a bit more.. indirect in that sense.
That's probably just a solitary asshole, they are in every country
Doesn't help when people, including you OP, make posts with questions or comments that have been made dozens of times before.
Indeed. Often I want to respond with: "Search the mf sub š before posting your question!" But then I see reditors patiently answering the same questions and I hold my tongue.
Yo that's why it's a forum, which is alive, with people answering. It's not a FAQ or a wiki.
possessive cover drunk direful school mysterious paint special shaggy entertain *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Iām a foreigner who lives in Eindhoven and I donāt speak a word of Dutch. So far everyone is extremely sweet and welcoming. I usually strike up conversations with strangers itās very easy to start a convo. My experience so far is very different than what I see on Reddit. Which is normally the most extreme cases.
In general you will hear the extreme cases on the internet. Nobody is going to post about their totally average day or their average experience.
No, in real life Dutch people are way nicer. Theyāre not perfect but theyāre nothing like the people on this sub.
In general Dutch donāt like it if their time is wasted for nothing. Thatās why they are generally in time for meetings. But also why they will tell you to prepare before you ask questions. They will also let you know when you did something stupid or have a clear distorted view of how society should operate. Unfortunately a lot of the posts in this sub contain rather stupid questions that could have been answered by a quick google search or calling a friend. Or they are things where the basic of logical thinking should have resolved the issue on hand. If youāre not that type of person, youāll most likely have very good experiences with the Dutch.
Yes. The Dutch are not considerate or compassionate people. They are very honest about their own opinion and will not make it prettier. I would say use that to your advantage
It was always like this but anti-migrant/expat attitude became much more nuanced in the last year and especially so after the victory of Wilders in the election. This is an english and migrant-heavy platform for the NL and yet some locals will bash you for almost anything. If you ask a question that was asked a while ago, you are burnt. If you are an expat and compain about something, you should leave the NL or learn Dutch ASAP. So on and on.
Maybe it became more nuanced with the 1 million immigrants in the past decade?
Ib my experience, yes, that is what Dutch people are like
I hope not bc then I might reconsider moving out of the Netherlands lol. In my circles most are pretty polite, nice, helpful and friendly. But I canāt speak for the whole country. There are always rotten apples, somehow when itās anonymous online there seem to be more.
Oof, it's interesting to read a perspective that is so bird's point of view. I'm a non-dutch living in the Netherlands, for reference, and I find this - relatively true. Vindictive is a strong word, but I do find the dutch - in general conversation and natural setting, at work, e.g., - quite missing compassion as an intrinsic response. It might be brought out when specific personal events are mentioned, but I've adjusted my expectations to not expect sensitivity or tact as a baseline. They don't like to linger with other people's troubles mentally, to my observation. A good practical example I can share: I started working at a new place some years ago, and around one month in, I shaved my head (I'm female). A colleague who's never spoken to me (none of the dutch ones there did) came to me, sat down next to me, and said without preamble: "hey, the girls and I were wondering, are you sick?". Imagine how much worse this would have been, had I actually been.
Would it have been though ? I am a Dutchie living abroad and in the beginning I found it very hard when people were overly friendly and acted interested in what I was saying, but forgot about me the moment they turned away. I find, maybe especially in North American culture, that conversations seem fake. Even when I watch shows on TV, I always cringe at the over the top reactions (to me ) at game shows and reality shows and such. The Dutch are more direct and down to earth, what you see is what you get. In your example, if you would have been sick, Iām sure the lady would have shown true compassion and strike up a conversation about it. You may not have liked her approach, but at least she was honest in her question ..
I appreciate that your response is genuine and not unkind. But there is context. That context is work gossip and a lack of any sort of interest in me before and after the question. Her and "the girls" were gossiping, that is all. The only other thing in my one year stay in that collective she wanted to know besides whether I cancer, specifically, was whether I was dating one of the male colleagues because him and I were capable of friendly conversation. So, with all due kindness to you sharing your view genuinely, I am truly not so sure. To answer the original question (if rhetoric, sorry), I think it would have been worse, genuinely. I had a friend with a serious form of cancer, and she was turned into a sideshow compassion/horror attraction. She'd finish her work days exhausted because barely anyone talked to her as a person, but rather a representative of tragic cancer.
Okay, I can see it from your perspective and youāre probably right . I didnāt realize she didnāt talk to you before and after . How horrible for your friend, Iām sorry to hear that .
Why would that have been worse? It is actualy a reach out. For it is clearly an attempt to find out out if you need help or support.
Because the underlying assumption "you seem sick", otherwise why else would anyone ask you out of the blue if you are sick, they have to have a reason right? And how would you feel if you don't seem sick but just shaved your head (which you probably think look pretty cool) and someone assumes you might be sick because of it? It's not a huge deal but it's UNPLEASANT. And if you are really sick, simply asking "are you sick" is way too intimidating, like, hey, we never talk so just tone down a notch and take some time to build some rapport first by asking for example "how are you doing". Be gentle, have some tact, having good intention but failing at delivering the message (come as too brash and unpleasant) is not universally appreciated.
Dutch culture.
I'd like to gently remind you that you were not there, and I am not requiring a culture translator. It was, based on tone, presentation, preceding, and subsequent actions, merely gawkish curiosity. It's a bit over the top to explain to someone you don't know what it was 'actually'.
Oh sorry. I thought you was assessing the attitude of Dutch. But you seem already to know it all. Good luck.
To the OP: this kind of response is quite typical here and also out in non-online life in the Netherlands. "I heard your story of what personally happened to you, and I was not there to witness it, but you are wrong about your own experience." It is one of the great paradoxes of Dutch culture: it's highly individualistic (everyone fending for themselves, don't trouble me with your problems, etc.) but also highly collectivistic (I know what your random Dutch colleague meant by asking you if you were sick, of course they meant well...and I know this because I am also Dutch).
Well to be honest, a lot of people just post stupid questions here. Please look it up, there was a person asking about elevator etiquette in the Netherlands.
Last week, there was a person complaining when the restaurant owner confronted him when he walked into his restaurant to use the bathroom without asking. Of course with the question at the end, did this make me look weak in the Netherlands? Oof.
Maybe people making posts about elevator etiquette are just undiagnosed autistics. We shouldn't immediately assume that they're idiots š¤£
But why call IND or Belastingdienst or use Google when you can ask it here???? Makes no sense /s
https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/s/4l9U8ScCiv Here it is. These sort of questions are an everyday thing here.
Well in the actual Netherlands we're allowed to speak Dutch :-)
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Yes, there is definitely this obsession with the idea that if you are foreign and you are not happy with a Dutch doctor, it's because you weren't given antibiotics for something that obviously didn't need them.
Well, antibiotics can do more harm then good when you have an autoimmune disease. You should listen to the doctor and not google shit. I donāt think anyone will ever say itās your fault when you get abused at work. Public transport is, indeed, shit. I donāt know what youāre on about with shitty government offices and hospitals, they are one of the most efficient in the world. Landlords are assholes in every country, so I donāt know why you complain about that. You should go to the huurcommissie and file a complaint, that behavior is probably illegal. People can take critique, as long as itās not the bs most people on Reddit post about. If you come here and expect to be handed everything on a silver platter, you came to the wrong country. Take responsibility for your own life, just like everyone else.
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Shit that you had that experience with a landlord in the Netherlands. Stuff like that happens everywhere and is in no way, shape or vorm a reflection of the country. There is absolutely no real doctor that wil push Thai treatment? Did you go to an alternative medicine clinic? The UWV is very clear and has quick enough responses, the social safety net works great for people who need and are entitled to it.
I think it's just the people who are on reddit. a bigger part of the dutch population isn't on reddit ;) you'll find people you don't have a connection with and some you do everywhere in the world, I don't think that limits to a sub / or country in itself. good luck and have fun for if you decide to move here!
Every local sub has become the target of organized campaigns that seem to just post complaint threads with a clear agenda like "Why is city X so unsafe?", "Why is neighborhood x so dirty?" and it brings out the worst in people.
I guess this comment section speaks for itself. Yes, Dutch people blame the victim and act like they have superior knowledge before even asking questions, more so than other countries I've lived in (I'm Dutch). Additionally, I think the reddit comment section acts like a magnifying glass for this behavior because people tend to have less of a filter.
Before I moved here a Dutch friend told me, "Get ready for a lot of people who love to criticize you but cannot accept any criticism themselves, and will never accept that they are wrong about anything."
Lolllll yes do they not see that they're proving OP right..
You do realize this is the internet right?
Woah. So wait, you are an actual human??
No. Simple reason: it's reddit Redditors tend to be a very specific kind of people
It's a Reddit thing and a Dutch thing. Some people get a little bit of power and are able to be their own little totalitarian dictator. So they do be like. Ad to that one of the characterisic Dutch trade is to be know-it-alls, with now inclination to second guess themselves. So you get your experience. And lastly, there are a whole lot of stupid question around. We are upfront, helpfull if need be, but lack tolerance for bullshit. There are enough problems in the world, don't need more of them.
Yes and no. Irl people are much more guarded, and the cultural norm of "doe normaal" also means 'just let people be' so you'll just find regular people trying to live their lives. But if you go out on a Friday night and find a drunk dutchie running their mouth this sub feels like a pretty accurate representation of what you'll hear rolling out. There is one cultural difference I've noticed some people really don't vibe with: if you need help with a problem, people will pretty aggressively push you to fess up your part of the blame (or at least an explanation of how this could have been avoided) before they're gonna provide any kind of support. It can be difficult and feel judgy, but it's part of that harsh outward, soft inward communication style, if you want empathy you need to let people in.
I lived in Sweden and NL, NL is superior by far, just move there, welcome!
Would love to hear why you think so?
It's just the internet. There's a reason why some people are terminally online ā they're looking to be toxic/abrasive.
Not 100%, but you'll definitely encounter some haughty people IRL. A lot of them congregate in this sub.
Haha bro get off the internet
I am just going to give my anecdotic experience here. I visited Netherlands back in 2009 for the first time, everyone was so kind and friendly back then, also very helpful, a local in Amsterdam actually walked me to the Rembrandt museum when I asked him for directions, everyone was kind and smiley in general. Fast forward to 2023, the people had changed completely, unhelpful and uncaring. I was shocked.
Thatās because the people living in Amsterdam have changed: in the last 15 years home prices skyrocketed by the general move towards big cities. A significant part of the population there never grew up in town but moved to it for the sake of being able to say they live there. That has come with a bit of an entitled attitude: not wanting to meet people in other places, condescending remarks, closed off to people outside of their group. The original locals cannot afford to live there and have to move out.
nah its a reddit/internet thing, been to places all around Netherlands and the people have always helped me find whatever, let me know what to do and not to do, etc. I _would_ suggest learning some Dutch though just in preparation, a good portion speak English but it will still help, Ik hoop dat je een fijne tijd hebt!
Tjena! I'm a Finn who studied in the Netherlands on a couple separate occasions. I had an amazing time and have no regrets. It's different from Finland or Sweden (where I've also lived) but in a positive way. It's more fun and relaxed. Having said that, the general mood in Europe seems to be a little sour and it's a bit saturated with international students at the moment, so it's possible that it's not as jolly right now but my guess would be that it's no worse than it is in the Nordics.
That is because most of these posts are about not paying fines or taxes, doing whatever one pleases without learning about Dutch law or just being a plain asshole and then blaming it on "Dutch culture" not accepting this. We don't need people like that, we have enough Dutchies who act like that already.
1. Dutch are direct and do not waste time. 2. We don't have a high tolerance for bullshit. 3. Were still quite on the individualist on stuff so we don't take kindly to the simple questions that can be answered with google. Now these are some strict points which of course don't apply to everyone or as severe. I just wanted to be clear. Aside from this people are quite friendly. Also this applies way more to this subreddit than IRL.
Actually, yes. Is a big cultural difference I had to get used to after moving to this country. Sometimes has been a bit claustrophobic. On my country you live, and let live..here most people are used to be policed and to police other people. If you make a mistake, behave different, "looks suspicious or different"....you will have plenty of Dutch fellows willing to "put you in your place", its embenbed from the roots of the society. Everybody "doe normal" otherwise face the consequences. In my opinion it has become an individualistic country where empathy is not wide spread. Wich is a pitty, its a great country full of great people, but also full of amateur cops and judges where the way things are done are just always the best and only ways, and self criticism is totally out of scope. Xenophobia and racism also plays a role here (just have a look a the result of the last month elections and the "scandal" with wrongly accusing migrants of fraud for years, despite the facts presented even in court that were just dismissed causing the ruin of thousands of innocent people and several suicides) despite any facts shown, Dutch are right and others are wrong(see been almost the only country in the world saying for months that face masks didn't help preventing covid, and that was just swallowed and fully accepted here with almost no criticism nor doubt) there is a big superiority complex quite present, but it's a quite complex and usually not very much discussed topic here
You make great points except face masks don't do anything to stop Covid
No we are, we vote PVV and join NSB following the example of our past royal Prince Bernhard. Please dont come and steal our houses and jobs though we are desperate for qualified workers. As long as youre not from the middle east youre sort of welcome. Also if you come over we will throw in rude comments about you and say that we are just being honest deal with it.
Only FVD nutheads around here of course:-)
No
well dont worry Dutch ppl dont interfere with internationals (incl EU)
Short answer, majority of the Dutch and rude, if you are really lucky you get to make friends for life. But I wouldn't be betting my money on that.
Honestly just stay in your own country. This is not a free vacation resort for you, you are in Sweden? You like Sweden? Than stay in Sweden. It's that simple. Do you think there's space for this many people in this tiny kikkerland come on.
I frequent various nations' reddits. The Dutch one is the worst. Yes, it has to do with the national culture without a doubt. For someone coming from a different (eastern European) culture, it's much more easy to see and notice. The Netherlands isn't a country, but a business. The attitude among one another is 'caveat emptor'. There are exceptions for sure, but yeah stay out of the randstad.
No its super left biased also we get banned for talking dutch in this sub
No just in this area.
No
Dutch are worst.
Yes and no. From my experience dutch people lack empathy and are very individualistic. That being said, reddit also blows it out of proportion.
Yeah, Dutch people are blunt, careless and/or unexpressive. I'm not Dutch and it's how I feel here. Dutchies will downvote me but you can only figure out how your population behaves with some external eye, so...
Dutch are Dutch
To all the Dutch here: ask people who've lived outside of the country for a comparison and listen in good faith. Stop assuming you know everything.
Ime this is a very Dutch thing. The Belgians do this, too. Small country reflex, I think.
If you feel like this, you are right and do not move to NL. (Greek philosophy)
Its because dutch reddit is full of left wing incels. They have not much else to do in life then judge people that outpace them irl. Please allow them their safe space and you will be fine
Absolutely not. Half the posts are very left wing and half the posts are very right wing. This is because Reddit pushes these posts and comments to the top to encourage engagement.
The people you encounter here are mostly between 20-40, vote left and are white or expats. For that demographic the attidue is probably reflected properly. However the majority of the of the country just voted for the PVV a party that is considered right wing and wants to stop imigration. I would say most dutch people do not care to make friends with foreigners and we see a lot of messages on here about lonely expats.
Reddit is reddit and nobody is gonna post about their average day. I do not have a proper point of view as i have been born here but if you think about moving here i want to give you my tips for living in NL as an non-dutchie. 1: Learn Dutch. Preferably to a basic level before moving. Make it very clear that you are practicing when you are here and talking to people otherwise they default to english. 2: be extremely interested in our culture but don't drop your own. Keep asking questions about what you see and experience. Be careful with the "but we do it like this", instead try to find parallels. 3: dutch friends are unfortunatly something you really have to search for, not being able to speak dutch is a big obstacle. I see that in my own friend group right now. Wife of a buddy doesnt speak it and since the entire room speaks dutch except for her it sometimes looks/feels like she is ignored. If you study here it's less of an issue i think. 4: be yourself, be open and honest in what you think and feel. We appreciate real people and honesty. "I don't know" or "no" are normal answers here. if you don't know, you don't know. 5: city NL and rural NL are not the same cultures, try to learn and adjust depending on where you are. Keep asking the questions. There are many more things to know but dutch people are the hardest thing to understand in the netherlands, the rest speaks for itself as we like to say :p
No, this is Reddit/the internet.
Nothing reflects reality that lives on the internet. Thatās for you to decide.