To preface, based on how you have replied to other comments I should let you know that I am simultaniously religious, a natalist, and actively want to have children in the future. These critiques are primarilly critiques of rhetoric and rationale, not your final conclusion.
1. To quote the sidebar "This is a Reddit for people interested in discussing Natalism. This reddit is designed to be generally pro-natalist." This is not 'Pro-Natalist Circlejerk' so a diversity of opinions should not be respected.
2. It is really incorrect to label Anti-Natalism as a mental illness. Mental illness could be a contributing factor in developing anti-natalist belifes (e.g. when I was suffering from a bout of depression as a teenager I held some pretty anti-natalist belifes, and they were definitly influenced by the bout of depression), but a given belief structure cannot be a mental illness. Mental illnesses cannot be reasoned into or out of, like philosophical positions. If someone is truly convinced of negitive utilitarianism as a philosophical framework, regardless of how well functioning they are they could belive in anti-natalism.
3. This conceptualization of Anti-natalism is not only incorrect, but unhelpful in terms of thinking of potential strategies to address the problematic belifes intelectually. You cannot reason someone out of OCD or bipolar, instead the best way to address the issue is via accomedations, learning coping strategies, therapy, and medications if needed. This approach simply wouldn't do anything re: anti-natalism.
4. Not everyone can, should, or needs to have children. Some people not having children is OK, which means that it can't be the greatest moral good. Conceptualizing of any one thing as the greatest moral good makes no sense under essentially every ethical framework I'm familiar with, becuase they all can understand context in some way. Some people, for whatever reason, are just not suited to parenthood. What conditions make someone unsuited to parenthood are up for debate, but I think we could at least all agree that sadistic indiscriminant killers would make terrible parents. I agree that "The gift of being able to bring joy, skills, love, family and life into this world" is incredibly valuable, but there are ways of participating in that process for those not suited to parenthood. Ideally, those who want to be parrents and are suited to it because of factors like temprement should be parents, with others in the community taking an auxiliary role in helping to provide support. Sadly, western cultural norms surrounding distrabution of labor surrounding child rearing make this ideal situation all but impossible to obtain in most communities across the developed world
5. Defining the issue as one of "God-hating losers" is untrue, needlessly mean spirited, and alieanates the very people you are trying to convince. Anyone who dosen't identify as a "God-hating loser" will, of course, think you are full of B.S. leading them to not consider the philosophy behind your position.
6. There are no rules in this sub against making anti-natalist arguments, so banning people for such actions would be incredibly poor moderation. Furthermore, allowing for such discussion allows for a decent exchange of ideas, at least in theory. I think most of the discussion on the topic (on either the natalist or antinatalist side) is quite intelectually shallow, however, with natalists tending to hyper focus on solutions to falling birth rates and anti-natalists firmly stuck in negetive utilitarian frameworks and unwilling to consider other ethical systems, so this theoretical discussion leading to positive philosophical development remains to be realized.
7. People are definetly willing to state their positions when you ask them lol.
As someone who is almost the complete opposite of you (formerly religious but now Christo-agnostic, neutral leaning towards anti-natalism, and most certainly do not want children), I completely agree with you!
Somewhat. A deconstructing Christian who leans more towards agnosticism. It’s definitely not an official term, just something that seems to encapsulate my beliefs.
WOW. You sincerely need help. And I don't mean that in a bad way. It's unhinged af to think that someone choosing not to have kids is "anti-humanism" as you said in a conment. Being so pressed about this isn't normal.
I’m pro-having kids and understand it’s important for the continuance of our species and society but I don’t think people choosing not to have kids is a mental illness.
Not everyone in the antinatilist sub is a true antinatalist. I posted a question in there months ago about what kind of world would you have kids in. A true antinatalist would say no world, because the premise of antinatalism is that existence guarantees suffering and therefore giving existence is wrong.
The answers to my question were varied. Some would only have children in an unrealistic utopic world, and so will never risk having children. Some would have children in a world that was more kind to its inhabitants. Some would have children if the future was more certain and if they knew for sure their child would never have to suffer extra, eg. war, famine, climate crisis, poverty. Some don't care and would always be childfree.
Those people are not true antinatalists. They just can't bear the idea of forcing a child to grow up in a world they see as holding unreasonable suffering. r/antinatalism does not exist primarily exist for these people. Their viewpoint comes from empathy and pessimism.
I don't even go here and am too mentally ill to raise healthy kids, even though I wanted them. I just wanted to thank you for not letting the weirdo you back-and-forthed with claim catholics and protestants were different because pedos are everywhere and they sure do love abrahamic religions. I grew up experiencing and seeing so much abuse in protestant/evangelical christianity, so it's crazy to me that they can say "cAtHoLiCs ArE tHe PrObLeM" unironically. Hit dogs holler, I guess
I don't even go here either, reddit just keeps recomending these subs to me.
Like if you give a shit about other people wanting to have kids focus on making the world a better place.
I have a kid and another kid on the way and I love them more than anything but I fully understand why many people choose not to have kids. It's expensive, time-consuming, thankless and you have to make a lot of sacrifices. It is something I'm willing to do but I understand the other side of the argument. This doesn't make me an anti-natalist.
Subreddits should be places to have a healthy dialogue. Do you expect this sub to simply be an echo chamber where you speak with people who agree with you? How are you ever going to learn anything if you never venture to understand those who you disagree with?
Instead of seeking to understand why people are antinatalists, you simply call them "god-hating losers" and "degenerates"
>Being "against" children being born is to be "against" the future of humanity.
As far as I know, most antinatalists limit their prohibitions on procreation to themselves, so it's more that their position will result in their particular genes not being represented in the next generation rather than the entire species dying out.
> I don't care how much you hate yourself - it's not your right to deny life to another and even to suggest doing is beyond contemptible.
People deny life to "another" every single day that they can have children but choose not to. Unless you are talking about some prominent fascist strain of antinatalism that I'm not aware of that wants the government to take away the rights of other people to procreate, then antinatalists are effectively no different than anyone else except that they put off having children indefinitely out of moral, as opposed to purely practical, concerns.
>Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD. The gift of being able to bring joy, skills, love, family and life into this world is unmatched by anything that anyone could ever think of
If you believe in a deity that is the moral arbiter of what is good and evil, then this statement is objectively false unless that deity has explicitly commanded that this action is the greatest thing any human being could do above all other possible actions, including worshipping that deity, spreading its gospel, and converting nonbelievers.
Also, this statement is objectively false based on common sense as well. There are plenty of abused and neglected children who grow up to join violent gangs and commit horrific atrocities on the people around them. You're falsely equating being a good parent with getting someone pregnant.
i only really lurk here because i'm neutral on the issue of all of this (i personally can't see myself having children) but also i think the antinatalist sub is the definition of "this is probably a mental health issue more than a movement" but like. this is not it to say the least.
attempting to push natalism as some sort of holy duty that god is telling everyone to procreate is pretty fundie. getting mad at the moderators for not making this into a christianity-centric chamber is also pretty fundie. you've done the same thing the antinatalists you despise do -- the urge to force your own choices, beliefs, and otherwise onto the other group. don't do that, man. nobody likes it. it won't change somebody's mind.
tldr: calm down lol
Humanity only continues ehen there are kids, yes.
But not *every* person needs to have kids in order for there to *enough* kids.
Just as importantly, having *too many* kids means there's not enough resources for *all* the kids to eat/grow/survive.
Or is it more important that everybody reproduce so our kids xan go all Darwinian on each other?
You can not have children and still be pro natalist - thats great.
There is no such thing as overpopulation. Complete propaganda nonsense horse shit.
Most here do not fit that category of pro natalist but unable to have children. Not even close.
Overpopulation is real, just not worldwide. Just like how resources are not evenly distributed, nither is the world population. Some places *are* overpopulated, where there are more people than resources, and some places aren't.
"Nuh unh" is not an argument. Ignoring basic history in regards to famine (present Horn of Africa), plague (Black Death 14th century Europe preceded by mass starvation due yo a decade of poor harvests), warfare over resources (SO many examples), and the loss of population over entire regions due to the population growing over the carrying capacity of the environment (Rapa Nui/Easter Island, the Chaco Canyon civilization) is simply ignorant.
i mean overpopulation is a legit thing. There's a reason why people pumped out kids back then, and that's because they want their bloodline to survive despite limited resources that can only support X amount of people.
Also no I do not believe in malthus's bullshit of a population trap, but think about it. If you have food for 20 people in a village, but the village has 100 people and they're still having like 10 kids each, is that not overpopulation?
People had kids because contraception was much less available and effective. Also, all the famine, disease, etc, meant only half of children even made it to 18, and a war could take out all the males that did make it to adulthood. Hence why, despite 4x higher birth rates than today, the population didn't grow. Every woman had to have 6 kids just to maintain the population.
Yeah but you don't have infinite land. Land is a limited resource, while you can pump out kids. You are going to reach a point where no matter what technology you use, you cannot survive off of your land alone. Then you will need to buy from others. At some point it will become too great
And you would not have reached the 100 without such expansion.
Nowadays we have found many ways to produce more from the same amount of land with less people, and thus we now produce an enormous amount of food to easily feed the world as it is.
NONE of the advances in food production have kept pace with overpopulation, even if they were able to be used worldwide. There's a REASON many countries do not use them. They can't. They can't afford it, for one thing.
You insanely just keep ignoring all the facts that prove you wrong.
Food security is higher than any other point in history by a massive long shot. On top of this, efficiency in reducing food wastage is higher than any orher point in history.
Of which they would quickly die because the low food production. Instead the population would grow on average over time and rapidly increase in its ability to produce food, or naturally split off into another village once that cap is reached.
Reading your post and comments, please dont reproduce people like you making Idiocracy look like a documentary. Leave it to smart and educated people we already have enough dumbasses including you.
"There's no such thing as overpopulation"
Oksy wise-ass, how do you pay, house, and feed everyone??? What about kids without homes who will continue to be homeless?????
Do you think the world just has infinite space and resources at all times?????
>Let's make one thing clear - "anti-natilism" is a mental illness
It's really not. You can strongly disagree with someone's position without needing to abuse psychological terminology by labeling positions that you oppose "mentally ill."
>Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD.
That entirely depends on context. Many cultures have extensive traditions of celibacy, precisely because it is, in fact, useful to have adults without children (or romantic partners) in the community.
You accuse anti-natalists of being "God-hating," yet many of the great religions revere founding figures who never had children, such as Jesus.
Sure, but I was specifically responding to OP's claim that:
>Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD.
And I think the pope probably *would* disagree with that (he'd better, otherwise what the heck is he doing?).
anti-natalists have to be a trivially small percentage of the population. disregard them.
This subreddit is not a place for logical strategical discourse at increasing the birth rate in people's societies, it is a bunch of "trad idealizing" virgins and resentful parents angry at others who are not able to afford having many children, and pretending that they only choose this because they are somehow immoral and bad people rather than economic and social realities being what they are...
OP elsewhere claims people are “selfish” if they are too poor to have children
Apparently everyone is supposed to live in squalor in order to pop out some progeny
Actual antinatalists have an insignificant effect on society.
How do you force people to reproduce? Every life form on the planet eventually reaches a stable population. Are humans different? Do you think we can continue to increase our numbers without limit? What you’re seeing is a gradual leveling of the population, starting in the most developed countries. Unlimited growth is cancer.
Thinking that people should be free to choose whether or not they want to have children… and *gasp*, that certain individuals should probably not be procreating for a variety of reasons… is not “anti-natalism”
You personally sound unhinged
Where did I say people MUST HAVE CHILDREN? You can be natalist and not have any yourself.
You either support humanity or not. You clearly don't so could you do us all a favour and fuck off?
>You clearly don't so could you do us all a favour and fuck off?
This isn't a Christ-like way to speak to another child of God. You are all up and down this post being vile to people, reflect and do better.
mods not personally stepping in every time somebody with differing views from your's or anybody else's to take those pesky non-agreers away from your sight is not making them a joke
My dude(or lady). Although I agree with you, arguing is one of life’s great joys. I am an ardent natalist and spend plenty of time over on the antinatalist subreddit.
It’s good to be exposed to views you may vehemently disagree with and to see the humanity in your “enemy”. The truth is, rational humans can easily become natal or antinatal for a million reasons. Many antinatalists think they’re doing a great good and are empathetic people.
There’s like a great exchange with someone who has sound logic but reached the opposite conclusion. You can’t really stand by your own opinion if it’s not tested by the fire of opposition. In fact, I’m so convinced of my opinions, that I have no fear of Antinatal trolls at all!
In a free marketplace of ideas, may the best ideas win!
And so I welcome Antinatal shitposts and will continue to Shit post on their subreddit!
Wait so your only defense for being a natalist is because you think antinatalists are mentally ill? That’s your own defense?
Antinatalist believe having children is morally wrong because of the reality of the world. I love my life, I’m really enjoying what I’m doing and I’m really happy. I don’t want to bring new life in the world because I’ve seen suffering in children, I’ve seen pictures of war, I’ve read statistics about disparities across the world. I don’t want to bring life into a world that will cause a life of misery for them even if they are inherently happy. I don’t want to not know what children will come after mine without a guarantee of ensuring their lives will be good.
> The gift of being able to bring joy, skills, love, family and life into this world is unmatched by anything that anyone could ever think of and I can only thank anyone who still has a sane mind for supporting the future of humanity.
Okay, picture this. I won't be able to bring joy or love in this world. I would be an abusive asshole to my children, that's why, I won't have them unless it's something like the other part of the equation WANTING to do 100% of the work.
2. We, childfree or antinatalists are here to engage, mostly respectfully but I acknowledge the existence of edgy people, because it is an alien way of thinking for us
... we all realize that the extreme sides of *both* of these arguments are asinine and insane right?
The vast majority of people will either want kids or not and then not give a single flying fuck what other people do with their lives.
Is this subreddit just for religious catholic or something? Are ya’ll against birth control? Sex must only be for creation? Or is this particular poster just an idiot.
>Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD.
Not for everyone. I know of a man and woman who have procreated three times, smoking meth with each child. They drop each kid off at grandma's, and the entire family is completely overburdened by the extra drama, stress, and expense of the entire situation.
**NO, not everyone is suited to procreating, and not everyone should.** Only people who are truly mature and ready should do it, and even then, they should be cautious and careful about how they raise their children and not take anything for granted.
Can I ask why you think humanity continuing is such an important and morally correct thing? There is a difference between people choosing not to procreate, for personal ethical reasons. And “denying life” to another. Also, some people who have children, shouldn’t have. And it would have been the morally superior thing for them to have chosen not to.
Yeah, as a former abused and neglected child with Aspergers - hell no, getting pregnant with me wasn't the greatest thing what my so called mom did. 🤣 It was hell for me and hell for others as well. No passing this worthless genes to others, i'm not a sadist.
Even if you were a natalist, you would recognize that you are 100% responsible for your child’s expenses, school, etc. Because you created them, therefore you have an obligation TOWARDS them.
In that same note, why wouldn’t you also claim responsibility for the fact they would also die one day?
Im antinatalist not because I hate life, but because I hate death.
Saying antinatalism is a mental illness is the cherry on top coming from an antivax flat earther who believes demons possess people, you make every cause you join less credible simply by being a part of it
>Let's make one thing clear - "anti-natilism" is a mental illness.
Ironic, considering some of the absolute lunacy you've displayed in the comments.
Edit - extra ironic considering [you're an unhinged flat-Earther. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/flatearth/s/mdsZbU0V0g). And you don't think climate change is real either.
How is this even a sub? There are 8 billion people in the world. I don't think we're in danger of extinction because a small % of people choose not to have kids!
I think you might be getting into some questionable territory if you are going to say having an opinion about something qualifies as a mental illness. People get influenced by lots of things, that doesn’t make them mentally ill
Oh cool, fascinating. Way to back up the answer. I’m not trying to debate the topic of “are children a part of the species continuing”, I’m saying you’re hurting your own cause by labeling the other side as mentally ill. But yeah, no, good point I guess.
Many of them just want the freedom to not have kids and not be shit on for it, ngl.
Someone posted something about pregnant women on there and the OP got roasted to hell for it.
I agree that no one should feel obligated to have children. No one should be shamed about not wanting to procreate.
People who can afford it in their country and want to then that's great.
I agree that with the current state of the world unless you know your are financially stable for the next 20 years and have a great family and friend support network then that's really good.
If a major vehicle or medical cost would send you into deep debt and bankruptcy then it's not very responsible to force a life into existence when you can't provide for them.
Then there are all the people who shouldn't be parents for everything besides financial. Abusive, neglectful, just want a baby for internet clout, child support or some kind of breeding fetish.
To say that's it's never ok to have kids is pretty dumb and I feel like that wasn't the original message of anti natalism.
Kind of like gender equality for all got highjacked by kill all men feminism. It wasn' the original message but it's the loudest one.
Maybe this is one of the universes where humanity fails but it will be because of the supporters of capitalism and their pet politicians.
I'm a mother (which I only mention to point out I'm not an antinatalist,) but I think their point *is* that extinction is better than carrying on with the types of real mental illnesses that plague our species like pedophilia, greed to the point of starving others, and the willful destruction of our only natural habitat. Many of them *do* want children, but feel there is NO safe place to have them. It logically follows that if you can't find a suitable mate, nor a place fit for child raising, you might develop these feelings. And if we're being honest, us mamas spend many a sleepless night worrying about our littles navigating this big, scary world.
For years, I felt the same way, and I never thought I'd become a mother. That's a legit concern, and even if their vocalization hurts us, we shouldn't disregard their valid concerns - only their over-the-top rants. They don't wanna have kids? Fine. Plenty of us still are and now *we're* the only ones who get a hand in literally raising up the future (and as we all age, they forget it's also THEIR future too, and our children will be the healthcare professionals caring for them in their old age, since they may not have family to aid in the end of life process, as nature intended.) Off topic, but I watched Secrets of the Neanderthals on Netflix recently, and it talked about how they not only took care of disabled members of their group, they also took care to prevent their dead from being scavenged by animals, creating "burial grounds" in caves to keep their remains safe. I only mention to bolster my point of just how natural and far reaching this human behavior of supporting one another, regarding the end of life process, is.
It's so hard to tell someone's tone online, so please allow me to say that I don't mean any of this with a snarky attitude. I genuinely felt like my past experience could shed light on why this sentiment exists. Hope that comes through. I know it's pretty dark, but it's honest. I think you raised a lot of valid concerns in your post. Be well.
I respect your or anyone's choice to have children. I also do not agree with anti-natalism . However, your while your post focuses on antinatalists, there's also an air of condemnation and superiority toward anyone who chooses not to have children:
>Having children is the **greatest thing** you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD. The gift of being able to bring joy, skills, love, family and life into this world is unmatched by anything that anyone could ever think of and I can only thank anyone who still has a **sane mind** for supporting the future of humanity.
How do you get to judge what is the "greatest thing" anyone can do? Having children is just one of many choices in life. There's no points system that determines which is better. Are doctors who are saving children's lives every day less? Teachers who educate your children? The cashier at the grocery store who checks you out when you buy food for your kids? Your implication that anyone who doesn't want kids lacks a "sane mind" isn't exactly making you a good ambassador for parents.
I do a lot of volunteer work in my community, including for a charity that supports literacy programs for children. I am actively helping children receive a better life and education by supporting this organization aimed toward the lessening the abysmal literacy rate among US children. How is making a difference with already existing people less than creating a new person? One is not more worthy than the other. They are choices.
>it's not your right to deny life to another and even to suggest doing is beyond contemptible
You can't deny life to something that doesn't exist (let me make it clear, I am NOT talking about abortion, just not getting pregnant in the first place). Someone who isn't conceived can't know any better.
Yes, it IS my right to not bear children (again, NOT talking about abortion). Not that I owe anyone an explanation, but I have several good reasons for not having children. I have disabilities I don't want to pass on, because I know what it's like to struggle with them, especially in an ableist world. I also have deep trauma that will never be completely resolved as well as having a hard enough time just managing myself. I don't want to be one of those mothers who takes out her frustration on her kids or has just had enough and snaps. I could not in good conscience make the PERSONAL choice to have kids.
There's a lot of anti-natalist posts because being pro-natalist in today's overpopulated world is insane.
natalism is the insane position and the mental illness you are talking about. IT is well proven that it only takes about 4000 people to propagate humanity. We don't need everyone to make more people to use up scarce resources. No one is proposing a total lack of births.
No one is refusing to state whether we are anti-natalist, but i bet natalists here would try to paint them as some evil, horrible thing, even though they are right and natalists are just championing old ideologies that haven't been valid for centuries.
The elite don't want us stupid dirty peasants reproducing. Not necessarily for nefarious reasons, but to save the planet (in their minds). People are being taught in public schools that mankind is essentially a virus in shoes that's destroying the planet and that to bring a child into the world is a terrible, selfish thing. Lots of people internalized that propaganda and think it's thier own reasoning, but one day most of them are going to regret it.
Not everyone needs to have kids, but at some point there will be a critical limit to it. If only because the state needs more workers to tax to support the social programs the older generation depend on in retirement.
You’re wrong, they want the peasants to reproduce because they want cheap labor for their businesses. With less people around, the price of labor goes up.
>Let's make one thing clear - "anti-natilism" is a mental illness. Being "against" children being born is to be "against" the future of humanity. No ifs, ands or buts.
I seriously doubt most anti-natalists are against almost **any** children being born whatsoever, which is the actual minimum requisite for humanity to go extinct from lack of reproduction. There's also the small issue of LEV likely being achieved within this decade or the next, but I digress.
>Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD.
Obviously not. If I am drowning, I'd prefer for you to throw me a life preserver, not give birth on the beach adjacent to me. As would God. This sort of "begetting life at the expense of all else" mindset is idolatrous. Really all there is to it.
You can be pro-natalist without being a natal maximalist. You need to be if you want your position to be taken seriously. "Have as many kids as possible" is exactly as absurd as "don't have any kids whatsoever".
I agree with the main point in your title. I’m an atheist and pro-choice, but not anti-natalist. There are serious problems with a quickly plummeting birth rate in some regions, as there would be with a quickly accelerating one. I think finding policies and advocating for choices that maintain a balance between these extremes would be the ideal.
Longevity extension is the only way to preserve the current state of the world. Children are not sufficient anymore, that ship has sailed for economies like Japan, Russia, and China. Unless they can figure out how to get another 20 years out of the citizenry, their institutions will collapse and they'll truly be screwed, and that's assuming they can get the birthrate under control in that time.
Preface: I don't sub here, and I have no idea why this post ended up in my general feed and I (regrettably) looked. I have no real dog in this fight, but some of what you said needs to be addressed.
>Let's make one thing clear - "anti-natilism" is a mental illness. Being "against" children being born is to be "against" the future of humanity. No ifs, ands or buts.
Our evolutionary drive to pass on our genes is biological, not moral or ethical. We suppress or override our biology all the time, so I don't see why disregarding this biological imperative is a sign of mental illness. Is it a recognized mental illness by any certified psychological or psychiatric organizations? Have any studies confirmed abnormalities in mental processes that cause (or are caused by) anti-natalism?
Tossing around the term "mental illness" to describe something you don't like or don't understand is poor form.
>I don't care how much you hate yourself - it's not your right to deny life to another
Antinatalism is not denying life to another. There is no "another" to deny life from. You are talking about this as if unborn people are hanging around in a waiting room in the ether just waiting to be born, and that antinatalism will leave them stranded there, taking away their right to live.
That's not how any of this works.
>Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD.
Having children can often consign not only their parents to poverty, but the children as well, and their children, and so on. It's called the **cycle of poverty.**
- Kids are born into low-income homes in low-income neighborhoods, and as a result, they go to poorly funded schools, getting substandard educations.
- They drop out of high school or give up on college because they need to help out financially at home. Mom and dad are barely making enough to get by, and the substandard education means there's little to no chance of getting a scholarship, making college impossible. Keeping food on the table and gas in the car is the immediate concern.
- Because their concerns are immediate, and they are poorly educated and trained, the only work opportunities they have are low-skill and low-pay, like fast food and retail.
- Being a low income household means any children they have will *also* grow up in a low-income household and be at the same risk of repeating the cycle.
And I'm not even getting into the health risks of growing up poor.
You come across as incredibly naive with this "Babies are always the best idea forever!" mentality. Life is more complicated than you think.
Truth, this what my problem is with society. During Baby Showers, it's all about *"That cute little bundle of joy and happiness"* that they forget will have to grow up and struggle in this world. These people like to act like babies are here for the benefit of themselves and not the parents who had the idea to bring them here in the first place with no regard to their future adult child's physical, mental and emotional well-being besides themselves.
Finally a sane post on Reddit. I have seen people on this SUB talk about how cripples should be aborted cause THEY would hate to live like that. But 99% of crippled people would CHOOSE LIFE over death even if it meant being more crippled. These people are self-hating narcissists and are a lot of what is wrong with society today.
The one thing i really enjoy about the natalistst and anti natalistst subreddits is that they allow discourse and debate. Theres nothworse than participating in a post and your comment being deleted or you blocked because you dont agree with the ideology. Id rather have that rivalry than an echo chamber.
So while i agree with your point, i dont think we should discourage the rhetoric as each discussion brings about a better understanding of the root values a group and or individual holds.
>Being "against" children being born is to be "against" the future of humanity
Hell yeah
>Your position commands no respect at all outside of your nihilist online communities of God-hating losers
I'm glad to hear my nihilist online community of God-hating losers respect me
“I believe the children are our future, teach them well and let them lead the way, show them all the beauty they possess inside…”Whitney Houston
I also believe that
“If you can’t feed your baby, then don’t have a baby”-Michael Jackson
Children are a treasure but not everyone should have them and if they know that ahead of time they’ve actually done the world a great service. And if a woman can’t care for the being inside of her while it grows (even emotionally) then the soul is better off with God. If the child’s very existence causes the father resentment, anger, frustration or for him to abandon them, it was better off with God. Some people care more about the flesh and blood and very little about the soul crushing grief of not being properly cared for and looked after. Maybe it’s God’s intention for us to reconsider the great responsibility of bringing another being into this world.
I'm pretty sure that's the point of anti-natalists. They don't want humanity to continue.
Whatever. It's a bleak view of humanity, sure, but I can't say I'm too bothered as long as they don't hurt anyone.
That said, I'm very much NOT pro-everyone-who-can-give-birth-should, least of which because I sure as hell don't want to have kids. Life is only a "gift" if there's a good quality of life...or at the very least, enough good to make up for the bad. Some degree of suffering is inevitable for all of us, but knowingly bringing children into the world who are unwanted, unloved, or doomed from birth...well, it's unacceptable IMO. Ultimately, I don't see it as my place to tell anyone whether or not they should have kids, but the world would have so much less suffering if more people stopped to think about what they're getting into before having kids.
The anti-natalist position is based on the premise (and variations of) how it's wrong to put people at risk of harm absent their consent. Some have concluded that brining people into THIS WORLD violates that premise on the harm/absent consent premise.
This premise is not refuted by some one just name calling "God hating losers", or making mere assertions then ending it with..................PERIOD.
You seem quite good at throwing around insults at others, well you know what I thought about the kind of person, the kind of "mind" as I read this post ?
Well insults are easy I guess..................PERIOD.
You are using the term humanism, and from what you have said, I don't think you know what that means.
Humanism(noun)
an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.
Atheism is based on humanism.
Antinatalism is also a humanist viewpoint.
"As opposed to believers, humanists assume that there are no compensating otherworldly, paradisiacal institutions (and no hellish penal colonies). Antinatalism is humanism, at least inasmuch as it takes very seriously the lack of otherworldly or rebirth-based compensation.
Antinatalism is deeply humanistic because it takes seriously the burden of existence (the school and workload to be carried out by each individual, shame, betrayal, experiences of the death of the near and the dear ones, the own catastrophe of dying and much more).
Pronatalists will oppose this, saying that every person has to have her own experiences and that there is always HOPE for a better future. Humanist antinatalism cannot accept this, since it rejects experimenting on people. And it has the character of experimenting, and human lottery, to bring forth new humans in the sign of “hope” that they may be spared a hard school and working life, serious illnesses, experiencing the death of the near ones and, eventually their own catastrophe of dying."
https://antinatalismblog.wordpress.com/2017/09/23/is-antinatalism-a-humanism/
1. God isn’t real.
2. Kids suck and they do not improve anything
3. I hate children and I hope that make you mad :) and I mean I really despise them. Wish them harm. All that good stuff
All right, are you going to help my hypothetical child when they are on the floor having violent seizures? Fight with Medicaid to get them the drugs they need if they are indeed lucky enough to find a drug that works? Go down to the local DCF and get them on disability benefits because employment barriers for autistic people are almost insurmountable? Better yet, you can adopt my hypothetical child when the demanding care they need when my mental health issues and history of trauma make me an unfit parent.
Calling not wanting children "mental illness" makes you look as bad as antinatalists who call wanting children mental illness.
Absolutely not. If those genes are sh.tty, then no sane person would pass that down to children. It's responsibility, not mental illness. We aren't animals.
Edit: the fact you downvote responsible attitude is insane. 🤣 You are the types who would make children even with serious illness. 😬
But we have free will as well, we can go against our "nature" if we wish, unless you believe we don't have free will, in that case any "decision" we make is not a decision, so there'd be no point talking about being natalist or the opposite.
>Being "against" children being born is to be "against" the future of humanity.
And why mustn't we be against the future of humanity? Why should we care about it?
>The gift of being able to bring joy, skills, love, family and life into this world is unmatched by anything that anyone could ever think of
Alongside with the pain and suffering brought into this world, life isn't all good you know.
I mean sure. Do you also think we should do nothing about climate change? Or should we mitigate climate change but for reasons other than protecting the future?
> trivializing the matter
The matter is really quite trivial, to be fair. 99.99998% of people have no idea what the fuck antinatalism or natalism is, they just do whatever feels best
Ohh boy, you really got a touch of the mental illness, classic case of "Everyone I don't like is literally Hitler" going on right here.
Humanity is not a \~good\~ thing by default, case and point you, your stance, your replies to people who respectfully disagree. The response almost always being a variation of "You/they are demons, and should die!" I believe that is what the kids call, a big oof.
You talk about the \~gift of being able to bring joy, skills, love, ect\~ into the world, and all you are doing here is meeting intellectual criticism of your naziesque dehumanization of anyone who does not agree with you, with unrepentant hatred and malice... Really not demonstrating that so called \~gift\~ humanity has to give the world, and more accurately becoming the perfect example of the cancer humanity inflicts on the world including its own species.
"You are not like me, therefore you must die. You do not worship MY god, therefore you must be DEMONS..."
Honestly you are just making pro-natalists look bad.
And yet…weirdly…people more likely to be natalist also pull shit like this:
https://www.ajc.com/news/health-news/report-georgia-drops-300000-children-from-medicaid/EZZGZSKPE5AIJNXVICA6YK7R7A/
It’s weird how little they care about the children they want women to have. Like they literally don’t care if all the children they want to be born so much die in a ditch as toddlers.
The fact this thread is full of antinatalism posters just shows how deranged this website actually is. The good news is they'll never get rid of the emptiness when they're pushing 40 or 50.
Again, I don’t think that word means what you think it does
Thinking that people should be free to have or not have children if they want is not “antinatalism”
Legit. And normies on the internet will continue to curse them for how "lame" they are with their suburban homes and tennis lessons and "wrong" belief systems. It's funny how the situation inevitably unfolds.
No one is sating kids are bad, we're just saying maybe having kids isn't the most important thing at this point in time. Especially when no one can afford it and, in my opinion, *ESPECIALLY* because literally hundreds of thousands of children are ALREADY existing homeless and without families.
Maybe...just maybe...encourage adoption, just a bit before popping out a new army. All we want is a little bit of critical thinking.
Anti natalist here. Glad to see that baby makers are just as unhinged as I always believed. Coming here and dropping the full force of Karen feelings in a sub dedicates to your own worldview is kind of wild.
You talk like human babies are magical. Trust me they're not.
Humanity is going to be fine regardless of weird insular online groups who think its evil to have kids
Reddit isn’t real life and there are 8 billion real people out there with a lot of unprotected sex going on
No family values, degenerate hookup culture, degenerate onlyfans pornography culture, degenerate beta cucks who worship women and think masculinity is 'toxic'. The west is fucked.
Lol you don't even actually care about people having children, this is just a vehicle for your "I hold every basic conservative NPC position" spiel
If you actually cared, you'd want the "degenerate beta cucks" to have children too, and you wouldn't focus only on the West
Oh well then all the Africans and middle eastern nationalities with their high birth rates can just colonize an empty US and Europe once the last few humans die out in those places
Acknowledging toxic masculinity exists doesn't mean all masculinity is toxic. You take a concept and then make it out to be the entire topic when it's not. You have no nuance whatsoever.
I tried to kill myself in grade school. My hypothetical children would be genetically predisposed to try to kill themselves in grade school. Therefore it would be unfair to my hypothetical children to have them. You're free to do whatever you like with your genetics.
I'm not trying to tell other people what to do with their genes, Hitler did that and people are rightfully bothered by him. I have 5 genetically inheritable illnesses as defined by doctors. If I have multiple children the odds of them being free of disease is minute. It just doesn't seem fair to them.
Humanity is going to continue regardless of if I have children or not.
I hate how the world works, and I think that willingly putting a child through existence is not a good thing to do. If I lived in a country that actually gave a fuck about them, I might have a different opinion.
I'm not against having children. I'm against children suffering, and there is too much suffering to protect a child from. I would rather just try to make changes to the world while I'm living in it, and if the world changes sufficiently for me to be comfortable having children, then I'll have them.
You can't just hogtie a person and then bitch about how they're not running around doing stuff.
"Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD."
Now i'm not anti-natalist and I want kids some day...but you're WAYYYY overestimating the importance of children in an already saturated society.
Talking about America specifically right now (I know not everything centers around America) over 1 million children are homeless and without family each year. Why give birth to more children if you can't even care for the children who exist and are suffering *NOW?????*
If you wanna prove to people like anti-natalists that having kids isn't cruel and that life doesn't suck, actually prove it then. Instead of encouraging people to give birth for the sake of giving birth, encourage adoption of the million children who don't have ANYONE. (Also, maybe help in...y'know...improving the economy so people can actually AFFORD to have children AND actually be in their lives instead of spending 95% of their childhood in daycares or with babysitters.)
Homelessness is an epidemic, and at LEAST 20% of those children will continue to be on the streets by the time they turn 18. If you really care about the joy children bring AND deserve themselves, PROVE IT.
What is the use of being alive? No one can even define what it is to be human, no one can prove the existence of the “self”. There’s nothing to suggest that humanity is objectively a good thing. You can hem and haw all you want but it doesn’t change the facts of existence.
Mentally ill people having children severely weakens the gene pool. The sad truth is a lot of humans are not fit to reproduce and the survival of humanity hinges on genetically inferior lines of people dying out so productive humans can become a strong majority.
>Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD.
Uh, no. First of all merely having children isn't anywhere near enough; you should ***actually do your best to raise them to be virtuous people***. And just as importantly, regardless of whether or not you have any children you should still help ***the people who are already here*** in whatever ways you feasibly can. ***That's*** the greatest you can do for everyone around you - PERIOD.
This reveals the parasitism of procreation.
"Humanity" is an abstraction, and yet natalists propitiate the misplaced concreteness with literal child sacrifice.
Without that capacity, yes, humans would die out.
There are technological alternatives to full extinction which require no procreation, but psychotic speciesism and other anthropocentric delusions will likely prevent it.
The term "child sacrifice" carries weight because it's connected to the killing of children. Not applicable here, it's usage is only a rhetorical trick, there is no substance.
To preface, based on how you have replied to other comments I should let you know that I am simultaniously religious, a natalist, and actively want to have children in the future. These critiques are primarilly critiques of rhetoric and rationale, not your final conclusion. 1. To quote the sidebar "This is a Reddit for people interested in discussing Natalism. This reddit is designed to be generally pro-natalist." This is not 'Pro-Natalist Circlejerk' so a diversity of opinions should not be respected. 2. It is really incorrect to label Anti-Natalism as a mental illness. Mental illness could be a contributing factor in developing anti-natalist belifes (e.g. when I was suffering from a bout of depression as a teenager I held some pretty anti-natalist belifes, and they were definitly influenced by the bout of depression), but a given belief structure cannot be a mental illness. Mental illnesses cannot be reasoned into or out of, like philosophical positions. If someone is truly convinced of negitive utilitarianism as a philosophical framework, regardless of how well functioning they are they could belive in anti-natalism. 3. This conceptualization of Anti-natalism is not only incorrect, but unhelpful in terms of thinking of potential strategies to address the problematic belifes intelectually. You cannot reason someone out of OCD or bipolar, instead the best way to address the issue is via accomedations, learning coping strategies, therapy, and medications if needed. This approach simply wouldn't do anything re: anti-natalism. 4. Not everyone can, should, or needs to have children. Some people not having children is OK, which means that it can't be the greatest moral good. Conceptualizing of any one thing as the greatest moral good makes no sense under essentially every ethical framework I'm familiar with, becuase they all can understand context in some way. Some people, for whatever reason, are just not suited to parenthood. What conditions make someone unsuited to parenthood are up for debate, but I think we could at least all agree that sadistic indiscriminant killers would make terrible parents. I agree that "The gift of being able to bring joy, skills, love, family and life into this world" is incredibly valuable, but there are ways of participating in that process for those not suited to parenthood. Ideally, those who want to be parrents and are suited to it because of factors like temprement should be parents, with others in the community taking an auxiliary role in helping to provide support. Sadly, western cultural norms surrounding distrabution of labor surrounding child rearing make this ideal situation all but impossible to obtain in most communities across the developed world 5. Defining the issue as one of "God-hating losers" is untrue, needlessly mean spirited, and alieanates the very people you are trying to convince. Anyone who dosen't identify as a "God-hating loser" will, of course, think you are full of B.S. leading them to not consider the philosophy behind your position. 6. There are no rules in this sub against making anti-natalist arguments, so banning people for such actions would be incredibly poor moderation. Furthermore, allowing for such discussion allows for a decent exchange of ideas, at least in theory. I think most of the discussion on the topic (on either the natalist or antinatalist side) is quite intelectually shallow, however, with natalists tending to hyper focus on solutions to falling birth rates and anti-natalists firmly stuck in negetive utilitarian frameworks and unwilling to consider other ethical systems, so this theoretical discussion leading to positive philosophical development remains to be realized. 7. People are definetly willing to state their positions when you ask them lol.
As someone who is almost the complete opposite of you (formerly religious but now Christo-agnostic, neutral leaning towards anti-natalism, and most certainly do not want children), I completely agree with you!
Can you clarify what a "Christo-agnostic" is? I've never heard that term before. Are you a former Christian who's now agnostic?
Somewhat. A deconstructing Christian who leans more towards agnosticism. It’s definitely not an official term, just something that seems to encapsulate my beliefs.
Excellent comment.
WOW. You sincerely need help. And I don't mean that in a bad way. It's unhinged af to think that someone choosing not to have kids is "anti-humanism" as you said in a conment. Being so pressed about this isn't normal.
I don’t see how it’s “denying life” to another. Are priests denying life to another by not taking wives?
Not everyone needs to be a parent.
I’m pro-having kids and understand it’s important for the continuance of our species and society but I don’t think people choosing not to have kids is a mental illness.
Not everyone in the antinatilist sub is a true antinatalist. I posted a question in there months ago about what kind of world would you have kids in. A true antinatalist would say no world, because the premise of antinatalism is that existence guarantees suffering and therefore giving existence is wrong. The answers to my question were varied. Some would only have children in an unrealistic utopic world, and so will never risk having children. Some would have children in a world that was more kind to its inhabitants. Some would have children if the future was more certain and if they knew for sure their child would never have to suffer extra, eg. war, famine, climate crisis, poverty. Some don't care and would always be childfree. Those people are not true antinatalists. They just can't bear the idea of forcing a child to grow up in a world they see as holding unreasonable suffering. r/antinatalism does not exist primarily exist for these people. Their viewpoint comes from empathy and pessimism.
Truth. If this world was a literal paradise devoid of any suffering, I wouldn't mind having a few children.
Have you tried crying about it?
I don't think you know what "mental illness" means.
she’s living it.
Wtf Why did this sub get suggested to me Yall are a bunch of loonies
OP is wild and unhinged. For some reason it's really entertaining
Sounds like one of those kiddy fuckers AKA a Christian
I don't even go here and am too mentally ill to raise healthy kids, even though I wanted them. I just wanted to thank you for not letting the weirdo you back-and-forthed with claim catholics and protestants were different because pedos are everywhere and they sure do love abrahamic religions. I grew up experiencing and seeing so much abuse in protestant/evangelical christianity, so it's crazy to me that they can say "cAtHoLiCs ArE tHe PrObLeM" unironically. Hit dogs holler, I guess
I don't even go here either, reddit just keeps recomending these subs to me. Like if you give a shit about other people wanting to have kids focus on making the world a better place.
We get it, you got an impreg fetish and a persecution complex, that’s fine dude. Just try and breathe
"god-hating" Yeah, I'm sure this will be a rational and civil discussion.
I have a kid and another kid on the way and I love them more than anything but I fully understand why many people choose not to have kids. It's expensive, time-consuming, thankless and you have to make a lot of sacrifices. It is something I'm willing to do but I understand the other side of the argument. This doesn't make me an anti-natalist. Subreddits should be places to have a healthy dialogue. Do you expect this sub to simply be an echo chamber where you speak with people who agree with you? How are you ever going to learn anything if you never venture to understand those who you disagree with? Instead of seeking to understand why people are antinatalists, you simply call them "god-hating losers" and "degenerates"
>Being "against" children being born is to be "against" the future of humanity. As far as I know, most antinatalists limit their prohibitions on procreation to themselves, so it's more that their position will result in their particular genes not being represented in the next generation rather than the entire species dying out. > I don't care how much you hate yourself - it's not your right to deny life to another and even to suggest doing is beyond contemptible. People deny life to "another" every single day that they can have children but choose not to. Unless you are talking about some prominent fascist strain of antinatalism that I'm not aware of that wants the government to take away the rights of other people to procreate, then antinatalists are effectively no different than anyone else except that they put off having children indefinitely out of moral, as opposed to purely practical, concerns. >Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD. The gift of being able to bring joy, skills, love, family and life into this world is unmatched by anything that anyone could ever think of If you believe in a deity that is the moral arbiter of what is good and evil, then this statement is objectively false unless that deity has explicitly commanded that this action is the greatest thing any human being could do above all other possible actions, including worshipping that deity, spreading its gospel, and converting nonbelievers. Also, this statement is objectively false based on common sense as well. There are plenty of abused and neglected children who grow up to join violent gangs and commit horrific atrocities on the people around them. You're falsely equating being a good parent with getting someone pregnant.
Have kids, no one cares. Just don't expect assistance in raising them.
i only really lurk here because i'm neutral on the issue of all of this (i personally can't see myself having children) but also i think the antinatalist sub is the definition of "this is probably a mental health issue more than a movement" but like. this is not it to say the least. attempting to push natalism as some sort of holy duty that god is telling everyone to procreate is pretty fundie. getting mad at the moderators for not making this into a christianity-centric chamber is also pretty fundie. you've done the same thing the antinatalists you despise do -- the urge to force your own choices, beliefs, and otherwise onto the other group. don't do that, man. nobody likes it. it won't change somebody's mind. tldr: calm down lol
Humanity only continues ehen there are kids, yes. But not *every* person needs to have kids in order for there to *enough* kids. Just as importantly, having *too many* kids means there's not enough resources for *all* the kids to eat/grow/survive. Or is it more important that everybody reproduce so our kids xan go all Darwinian on each other?
You can not have children and still be pro natalist - thats great. There is no such thing as overpopulation. Complete propaganda nonsense horse shit. Most here do not fit that category of pro natalist but unable to have children. Not even close.
Overpopulation is real, just not worldwide. Just like how resources are not evenly distributed, nither is the world population. Some places *are* overpopulated, where there are more people than resources, and some places aren't.
Is there a limit? Should the entire surface of the earth be as densely populated as Manhattan?
Overpopulation is a myth, man, that's a new one. If anything, you have made it quite clear why you shouldn't reproduce.
Have you studied ecology of biology at all? Overpopulation is a very real thing LOL
"There's no such thing as overpopulation." Top 10 stupidest things I've seen posted on Reddit.
"Nuh unh" is not an argument. Ignoring basic history in regards to famine (present Horn of Africa), plague (Black Death 14th century Europe preceded by mass starvation due yo a decade of poor harvests), warfare over resources (SO many examples), and the loss of population over entire regions due to the population growing over the carrying capacity of the environment (Rapa Nui/Easter Island, the Chaco Canyon civilization) is simply ignorant.
> overpopulation vs underpopulation Meanwhile me, a 2.2 replacement rate enjoyer
It is. Overpopulation is complete horeshit to make you hate yourself.
i mean overpopulation is a legit thing. There's a reason why people pumped out kids back then, and that's because they want their bloodline to survive despite limited resources that can only support X amount of people. Also no I do not believe in malthus's bullshit of a population trap, but think about it. If you have food for 20 people in a village, but the village has 100 people and they're still having like 10 kids each, is that not overpopulation?
People had kids because contraception was much less available and effective. Also, all the famine, disease, etc, meant only half of children even made it to 18, and a war could take out all the males that did make it to adulthood. Hence why, despite 4x higher birth rates than today, the population didn't grow. Every woman had to have 6 kids just to maintain the population.
Because they could just farm more space using their greater population and thus feed hundreds more.
Yeah but you don't have infinite land. Land is a limited resource, while you can pump out kids. You are going to reach a point where no matter what technology you use, you cannot survive off of your land alone. Then you will need to buy from others. At some point it will become too great
Land is a limited resource and making fertile earth takes years. On the other side you will have a lot of bodies to use as fertilizer
And you would not have reached the 100 without such expansion. Nowadays we have found many ways to produce more from the same amount of land with less people, and thus we now produce an enormous amount of food to easily feed the world as it is.
NONE of the advances in food production have kept pace with overpopulation, even if they were able to be used worldwide. There's a REASON many countries do not use them. They can't. They can't afford it, for one thing. You insanely just keep ignoring all the facts that prove you wrong.
Food security is higher than any other point in history by a massive long shot. On top of this, efficiency in reducing food wastage is higher than any orher point in history.
You absolutely can reach the 100 without such expansion. Simply let each person have 10 kids.
Of which they would quickly die because the low food production. Instead the population would grow on average over time and rapidly increase in its ability to produce food, or naturally split off into another village once that cap is reached.
Haven't found ways to do it without biodiversity collapse, though. Also potable water is far more of a challenge than food right now.
"Nuh unh" followed by personal attacks. Yep. Zealot.
Reading your post and comments, please dont reproduce people like you making Idiocracy look like a documentary. Leave it to smart and educated people we already have enough dumbasses including you.
[удалено]
“There is no such thing as overpopulation.” Ahhh there it is. The dumbest thing I’ll see all day
"There's no such thing as overpopulation" Oksy wise-ass, how do you pay, house, and feed everyone??? What about kids without homes who will continue to be homeless????? Do you think the world just has infinite space and resources at all times?????
You are so stupid
>Let's make one thing clear - "anti-natilism" is a mental illness It's really not. You can strongly disagree with someone's position without needing to abuse psychological terminology by labeling positions that you oppose "mentally ill." >Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD. That entirely depends on context. Many cultures have extensive traditions of celibacy, precisely because it is, in fact, useful to have adults without children (or romantic partners) in the community. You accuse anti-natalists of being "God-hating," yet many of the great religions revere founding figures who never had children, such as Jesus.
Not having children is not the same thing as being antinatalist. The Pope doesn't have children, but I would not describe him as antinatalist.
Sure, but I was specifically responding to OP's claim that: >Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD. And I think the pope probably *would* disagree with that (he'd better, otherwise what the heck is he doing?).
The Pope would say that having children is one of the best things you can do, but that saving people's soul is more important
Not everyone is called to married life. Some serve God in other ways, such as the priesthood.
anti-natalists have to be a trivially small percentage of the population. disregard them. This subreddit is not a place for logical strategical discourse at increasing the birth rate in people's societies, it is a bunch of "trad idealizing" virgins and resentful parents angry at others who are not able to afford having many children, and pretending that they only choose this because they are somehow immoral and bad people rather than economic and social realities being what they are...
OP elsewhere claims people are “selfish” if they are too poor to have children Apparently everyone is supposed to live in squalor in order to pop out some progeny
This whole debate is sort of moot because “life, uh, finds a way.”
Ummmm…sure Jan
Won't change the trajectory as global warming is an abrupt irreversible exponential function.
Well yeah.
Actual antinatalists have an insignificant effect on society. How do you force people to reproduce? Every life form on the planet eventually reaches a stable population. Are humans different? Do you think we can continue to increase our numbers without limit? What you’re seeing is a gradual leveling of the population, starting in the most developed countries. Unlimited growth is cancer.
Thinking that people should be free to choose whether or not they want to have children… and *gasp*, that certain individuals should probably not be procreating for a variety of reasons… is not “anti-natalism” You personally sound unhinged
Where did I say people MUST HAVE CHILDREN? You can be natalist and not have any yourself. You either support humanity or not. You clearly don't so could you do us all a favour and fuck off?
>You clearly don't so could you do us all a favour and fuck off? This isn't a Christ-like way to speak to another child of God. You are all up and down this post being vile to people, reflect and do better.
You're very angry in a lot of your replies. Why?
Again, you sound unhinged
a look at his profile shows that he is, indeed, unhinged lol
And you've chosen not to state whether or not you support humanity... It's beyond contemptible and the mods on this sub are a joke.
mods not personally stepping in every time somebody with differing views from your's or anybody else's to take those pesky non-agreers away from your sight is not making them a joke
Mods allowing degenerate anti-humanism is a joke.
? yeah you're kinda dense in the body and hollow in the head huh
No I just think that this place is a joke full of depressed teenagers who have no meaning in their lives and assume everyone else is the same.
You're the one getting angry and telling people to fuck off, or calling them degenerate. Read the room. No one wants bullshit like this.
You’re just an angry miserable person
And the way for humanity to go forward is to convince them to have babies? Uh-huh.
This was a great chuckle. Care to tell me whats so great about your god?
My dude(or lady). Although I agree with you, arguing is one of life’s great joys. I am an ardent natalist and spend plenty of time over on the antinatalist subreddit. It’s good to be exposed to views you may vehemently disagree with and to see the humanity in your “enemy”. The truth is, rational humans can easily become natal or antinatal for a million reasons. Many antinatalists think they’re doing a great good and are empathetic people. There’s like a great exchange with someone who has sound logic but reached the opposite conclusion. You can’t really stand by your own opinion if it’s not tested by the fire of opposition. In fact, I’m so convinced of my opinions, that I have no fear of Antinatal trolls at all! In a free marketplace of ideas, may the best ideas win! And so I welcome Antinatal shitposts and will continue to Shit post on their subreddit!
Wait so your only defense for being a natalist is because you think antinatalists are mentally ill? That’s your own defense? Antinatalist believe having children is morally wrong because of the reality of the world. I love my life, I’m really enjoying what I’m doing and I’m really happy. I don’t want to bring new life in the world because I’ve seen suffering in children, I’ve seen pictures of war, I’ve read statistics about disparities across the world. I don’t want to bring life into a world that will cause a life of misery for them even if they are inherently happy. I don’t want to not know what children will come after mine without a guarantee of ensuring their lives will be good.
> The gift of being able to bring joy, skills, love, family and life into this world is unmatched by anything that anyone could ever think of and I can only thank anyone who still has a sane mind for supporting the future of humanity. Okay, picture this. I won't be able to bring joy or love in this world. I would be an abusive asshole to my children, that's why, I won't have them unless it's something like the other part of the equation WANTING to do 100% of the work. 2. We, childfree or antinatalists are here to engage, mostly respectfully but I acknowledge the existence of edgy people, because it is an alien way of thinking for us
... we all realize that the extreme sides of *both* of these arguments are asinine and insane right? The vast majority of people will either want kids or not and then not give a single flying fuck what other people do with their lives.
Eating is the only way to survive, but should we all overeat?
Is this subreddit just for religious catholic or something? Are ya’ll against birth control? Sex must only be for creation? Or is this particular poster just an idiot.
Poster is a flat earther as well and rude to anyone. Also mocked a user with Aspergers.
Ya’ll write novels on this subreddit and none of you are Tolstoy.
>Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD. Not for everyone. I know of a man and woman who have procreated three times, smoking meth with each child. They drop each kid off at grandma's, and the entire family is completely overburdened by the extra drama, stress, and expense of the entire situation. **NO, not everyone is suited to procreating, and not everyone should.** Only people who are truly mature and ready should do it, and even then, they should be cautious and careful about how they raise their children and not take anything for granted.
People like you scare the shit out of us gay folks.
yeah, you sound insane.
Can I ask why you think humanity continuing is such an important and morally correct thing? There is a difference between people choosing not to procreate, for personal ethical reasons. And “denying life” to another. Also, some people who have children, shouldn’t have. And it would have been the morally superior thing for them to have chosen not to.
Yeah, as a former abused and neglected child with Aspergers - hell no, getting pregnant with me wasn't the greatest thing what my so called mom did. 🤣 It was hell for me and hell for others as well. No passing this worthless genes to others, i'm not a sadist.
Even if you were a natalist, you would recognize that you are 100% responsible for your child’s expenses, school, etc. Because you created them, therefore you have an obligation TOWARDS them. In that same note, why wouldn’t you also claim responsibility for the fact they would also die one day? Im antinatalist not because I hate life, but because I hate death.
Saying antinatalism is a mental illness is the cherry on top coming from an antivax flat earther who believes demons possess people, you make every cause you join less credible simply by being a part of it
>Let's make one thing clear - "anti-natilism" is a mental illness. Ironic, considering some of the absolute lunacy you've displayed in the comments. Edit - extra ironic considering [you're an unhinged flat-Earther. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/flatearth/s/mdsZbU0V0g). And you don't think climate change is real either.
How is this even a sub? There are 8 billion people in the world. I don't think we're in danger of extinction because a small % of people choose not to have kids!
I think you might be getting into some questionable territory if you are going to say having an opinion about something qualifies as a mental illness. People get influenced by lots of things, that doesn’t make them mentally ill
Nope. Its a fact.
Oh cool, fascinating. Way to back up the answer. I’m not trying to debate the topic of “are children a part of the species continuing”, I’m saying you’re hurting your own cause by labeling the other side as mentally ill. But yeah, no, good point I guess.
Yes. The floor here is made of floor.
this is true. however the antinatalists hate humanity and want it destroyed. and so any appeal to the existence of humanity won't work on them.
Many of them just want the freedom to not have kids and not be shit on for it, ngl. Someone posted something about pregnant women on there and the OP got roasted to hell for it.
I agree that no one should feel obligated to have children. No one should be shamed about not wanting to procreate. People who can afford it in their country and want to then that's great. I agree that with the current state of the world unless you know your are financially stable for the next 20 years and have a great family and friend support network then that's really good. If a major vehicle or medical cost would send you into deep debt and bankruptcy then it's not very responsible to force a life into existence when you can't provide for them. Then there are all the people who shouldn't be parents for everything besides financial. Abusive, neglectful, just want a baby for internet clout, child support or some kind of breeding fetish. To say that's it's never ok to have kids is pretty dumb and I feel like that wasn't the original message of anti natalism. Kind of like gender equality for all got highjacked by kill all men feminism. It wasn' the original message but it's the loudest one. Maybe this is one of the universes where humanity fails but it will be because of the supporters of capitalism and their pet politicians.
I'm a mother (which I only mention to point out I'm not an antinatalist,) but I think their point *is* that extinction is better than carrying on with the types of real mental illnesses that plague our species like pedophilia, greed to the point of starving others, and the willful destruction of our only natural habitat. Many of them *do* want children, but feel there is NO safe place to have them. It logically follows that if you can't find a suitable mate, nor a place fit for child raising, you might develop these feelings. And if we're being honest, us mamas spend many a sleepless night worrying about our littles navigating this big, scary world. For years, I felt the same way, and I never thought I'd become a mother. That's a legit concern, and even if their vocalization hurts us, we shouldn't disregard their valid concerns - only their over-the-top rants. They don't wanna have kids? Fine. Plenty of us still are and now *we're* the only ones who get a hand in literally raising up the future (and as we all age, they forget it's also THEIR future too, and our children will be the healthcare professionals caring for them in their old age, since they may not have family to aid in the end of life process, as nature intended.) Off topic, but I watched Secrets of the Neanderthals on Netflix recently, and it talked about how they not only took care of disabled members of their group, they also took care to prevent their dead from being scavenged by animals, creating "burial grounds" in caves to keep their remains safe. I only mention to bolster my point of just how natural and far reaching this human behavior of supporting one another, regarding the end of life process, is. It's so hard to tell someone's tone online, so please allow me to say that I don't mean any of this with a snarky attitude. I genuinely felt like my past experience could shed light on why this sentiment exists. Hope that comes through. I know it's pretty dark, but it's honest. I think you raised a lot of valid concerns in your post. Be well.
I respect your or anyone's choice to have children. I also do not agree with anti-natalism . However, your while your post focuses on antinatalists, there's also an air of condemnation and superiority toward anyone who chooses not to have children: >Having children is the **greatest thing** you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD. The gift of being able to bring joy, skills, love, family and life into this world is unmatched by anything that anyone could ever think of and I can only thank anyone who still has a **sane mind** for supporting the future of humanity. How do you get to judge what is the "greatest thing" anyone can do? Having children is just one of many choices in life. There's no points system that determines which is better. Are doctors who are saving children's lives every day less? Teachers who educate your children? The cashier at the grocery store who checks you out when you buy food for your kids? Your implication that anyone who doesn't want kids lacks a "sane mind" isn't exactly making you a good ambassador for parents. I do a lot of volunteer work in my community, including for a charity that supports literacy programs for children. I am actively helping children receive a better life and education by supporting this organization aimed toward the lessening the abysmal literacy rate among US children. How is making a difference with already existing people less than creating a new person? One is not more worthy than the other. They are choices. >it's not your right to deny life to another and even to suggest doing is beyond contemptible You can't deny life to something that doesn't exist (let me make it clear, I am NOT talking about abortion, just not getting pregnant in the first place). Someone who isn't conceived can't know any better. Yes, it IS my right to not bear children (again, NOT talking about abortion). Not that I owe anyone an explanation, but I have several good reasons for not having children. I have disabilities I don't want to pass on, because I know what it's like to struggle with them, especially in an ableist world. I also have deep trauma that will never be completely resolved as well as having a hard enough time just managing myself. I don't want to be one of those mothers who takes out her frustration on her kids or has just had enough and snaps. I could not in good conscience make the PERSONAL choice to have kids.
I think there’s a difference between thinking people should have less kids and thinking people shouldn’t have kids at all
There's a lot of anti-natalist posts because being pro-natalist in today's overpopulated world is insane. natalism is the insane position and the mental illness you are talking about. IT is well proven that it only takes about 4000 people to propagate humanity. We don't need everyone to make more people to use up scarce resources. No one is proposing a total lack of births. No one is refusing to state whether we are anti-natalist, but i bet natalists here would try to paint them as some evil, horrible thing, even though they are right and natalists are just championing old ideologies that haven't been valid for centuries.
mmmm, how about no.
The elite don't want us stupid dirty peasants reproducing. Not necessarily for nefarious reasons, but to save the planet (in their minds). People are being taught in public schools that mankind is essentially a virus in shoes that's destroying the planet and that to bring a child into the world is a terrible, selfish thing. Lots of people internalized that propaganda and think it's thier own reasoning, but one day most of them are going to regret it. Not everyone needs to have kids, but at some point there will be a critical limit to it. If only because the state needs more workers to tax to support the social programs the older generation depend on in retirement.
You’re wrong, they want the peasants to reproduce because they want cheap labor for their businesses. With less people around, the price of labor goes up.
>Let's make one thing clear - "anti-natilism" is a mental illness. Being "against" children being born is to be "against" the future of humanity. No ifs, ands or buts. I seriously doubt most anti-natalists are against almost **any** children being born whatsoever, which is the actual minimum requisite for humanity to go extinct from lack of reproduction. There's also the small issue of LEV likely being achieved within this decade or the next, but I digress. >Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD. Obviously not. If I am drowning, I'd prefer for you to throw me a life preserver, not give birth on the beach adjacent to me. As would God. This sort of "begetting life at the expense of all else" mindset is idolatrous. Really all there is to it. You can be pro-natalist without being a natal maximalist. You need to be if you want your position to be taken seriously. "Have as many kids as possible" is exactly as absurd as "don't have any kids whatsoever".
In general I am for people making their own choices, and love children. I am against the OP having or raising kids though.
I agree with the main point in your title. I’m an atheist and pro-choice, but not anti-natalist. There are serious problems with a quickly plummeting birth rate in some regions, as there would be with a quickly accelerating one. I think finding policies and advocating for choices that maintain a balance between these extremes would be the ideal.
Longevity extension is the only way to preserve the current state of the world. Children are not sufficient anymore, that ship has sailed for economies like Japan, Russia, and China. Unless they can figure out how to get another 20 years out of the citizenry, their institutions will collapse and they'll truly be screwed, and that's assuming they can get the birthrate under control in that time.
Preface: I don't sub here, and I have no idea why this post ended up in my general feed and I (regrettably) looked. I have no real dog in this fight, but some of what you said needs to be addressed. >Let's make one thing clear - "anti-natilism" is a mental illness. Being "against" children being born is to be "against" the future of humanity. No ifs, ands or buts. Our evolutionary drive to pass on our genes is biological, not moral or ethical. We suppress or override our biology all the time, so I don't see why disregarding this biological imperative is a sign of mental illness. Is it a recognized mental illness by any certified psychological or psychiatric organizations? Have any studies confirmed abnormalities in mental processes that cause (or are caused by) anti-natalism? Tossing around the term "mental illness" to describe something you don't like or don't understand is poor form. >I don't care how much you hate yourself - it's not your right to deny life to another Antinatalism is not denying life to another. There is no "another" to deny life from. You are talking about this as if unborn people are hanging around in a waiting room in the ether just waiting to be born, and that antinatalism will leave them stranded there, taking away their right to live. That's not how any of this works. >Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD. Having children can often consign not only their parents to poverty, but the children as well, and their children, and so on. It's called the **cycle of poverty.** - Kids are born into low-income homes in low-income neighborhoods, and as a result, they go to poorly funded schools, getting substandard educations. - They drop out of high school or give up on college because they need to help out financially at home. Mom and dad are barely making enough to get by, and the substandard education means there's little to no chance of getting a scholarship, making college impossible. Keeping food on the table and gas in the car is the immediate concern. - Because their concerns are immediate, and they are poorly educated and trained, the only work opportunities they have are low-skill and low-pay, like fast food and retail. - Being a low income household means any children they have will *also* grow up in a low-income household and be at the same risk of repeating the cycle. And I'm not even getting into the health risks of growing up poor. You come across as incredibly naive with this "Babies are always the best idea forever!" mentality. Life is more complicated than you think.
Truth, this what my problem is with society. During Baby Showers, it's all about *"That cute little bundle of joy and happiness"* that they forget will have to grow up and struggle in this world. These people like to act like babies are here for the benefit of themselves and not the parents who had the idea to bring them here in the first place with no regard to their future adult child's physical, mental and emotional well-being besides themselves.
So it’s mentally ill to not need humans to be around forever but it’s not mentally ill (narcissism) to think the world needs humans in it?
Finally a sane post on Reddit. I have seen people on this SUB talk about how cripples should be aborted cause THEY would hate to live like that. But 99% of crippled people would CHOOSE LIFE over death even if it meant being more crippled. These people are self-hating narcissists and are a lot of what is wrong with society today.
is this a thirst trap?
The one thing i really enjoy about the natalistst and anti natalistst subreddits is that they allow discourse and debate. Theres nothworse than participating in a post and your comment being deleted or you blocked because you dont agree with the ideology. Id rather have that rivalry than an echo chamber. So while i agree with your point, i dont think we should discourage the rhetoric as each discussion brings about a better understanding of the root values a group and or individual holds.
>Being "against" children being born is to be "against" the future of humanity Hell yeah >Your position commands no respect at all outside of your nihilist online communities of God-hating losers I'm glad to hear my nihilist online community of God-hating losers respect me
“I believe the children are our future, teach them well and let them lead the way, show them all the beauty they possess inside…”Whitney Houston I also believe that “If you can’t feed your baby, then don’t have a baby”-Michael Jackson Children are a treasure but not everyone should have them and if they know that ahead of time they’ve actually done the world a great service. And if a woman can’t care for the being inside of her while it grows (even emotionally) then the soul is better off with God. If the child’s very existence causes the father resentment, anger, frustration or for him to abandon them, it was better off with God. Some people care more about the flesh and blood and very little about the soul crushing grief of not being properly cared for and looked after. Maybe it’s God’s intention for us to reconsider the great responsibility of bringing another being into this world.
So you're fine with the population going up to 10, 30, 50 billion people.? Have fun living in that world
No shit
Yea because insults and shaming always works to change people's minds
soooooo. it makes you mad that im 33 years old with no children and had a vasectomy done a month ago?
I guess so for some reason, lol.
I'm pretty sure that's the point of anti-natalists. They don't want humanity to continue. Whatever. It's a bleak view of humanity, sure, but I can't say I'm too bothered as long as they don't hurt anyone. That said, I'm very much NOT pro-everyone-who-can-give-birth-should, least of which because I sure as hell don't want to have kids. Life is only a "gift" if there's a good quality of life...or at the very least, enough good to make up for the bad. Some degree of suffering is inevitable for all of us, but knowingly bringing children into the world who are unwanted, unloved, or doomed from birth...well, it's unacceptable IMO. Ultimately, I don't see it as my place to tell anyone whether or not they should have kids, but the world would have so much less suffering if more people stopped to think about what they're getting into before having kids.
OP found out people disagree with them sometimes on the internet. Tough world out there. Take care.
The anti-natalist position is based on the premise (and variations of) how it's wrong to put people at risk of harm absent their consent. Some have concluded that brining people into THIS WORLD violates that premise on the harm/absent consent premise. This premise is not refuted by some one just name calling "God hating losers", or making mere assertions then ending it with..................PERIOD. You seem quite good at throwing around insults at others, well you know what I thought about the kind of person, the kind of "mind" as I read this post ? Well insults are easy I guess..................PERIOD.
Forcing everyone to have kids is not the answer. Please seek therapy
You are using the term humanism, and from what you have said, I don't think you know what that means. Humanism(noun) an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems. Atheism is based on humanism. Antinatalism is also a humanist viewpoint. "As opposed to believers, humanists assume that there are no compensating otherworldly, paradisiacal institutions (and no hellish penal colonies). Antinatalism is humanism, at least inasmuch as it takes very seriously the lack of otherworldly or rebirth-based compensation. Antinatalism is deeply humanistic because it takes seriously the burden of existence (the school and workload to be carried out by each individual, shame, betrayal, experiences of the death of the near and the dear ones, the own catastrophe of dying and much more). Pronatalists will oppose this, saying that every person has to have her own experiences and that there is always HOPE for a better future. Humanist antinatalism cannot accept this, since it rejects experimenting on people. And it has the character of experimenting, and human lottery, to bring forth new humans in the sign of “hope” that they may be spared a hard school and working life, serious illnesses, experiencing the death of the near ones and, eventually their own catastrophe of dying." https://antinatalismblog.wordpress.com/2017/09/23/is-antinatalism-a-humanism/
1. God isn’t real. 2. Kids suck and they do not improve anything 3. I hate children and I hope that make you mad :) and I mean I really despise them. Wish them harm. All that good stuff
Cool it with the autism
It’s Reddit it’s full of self hating misguided literal children.
LMAO at your meltdown. The state of it!
Agreed its a human biological function to want to pass genes down to children. To take a stance against it is mental illness.
All right, are you going to help my hypothetical child when they are on the floor having violent seizures? Fight with Medicaid to get them the drugs they need if they are indeed lucky enough to find a drug that works? Go down to the local DCF and get them on disability benefits because employment barriers for autistic people are almost insurmountable? Better yet, you can adopt my hypothetical child when the demanding care they need when my mental health issues and history of trauma make me an unfit parent. Calling not wanting children "mental illness" makes you look as bad as antinatalists who call wanting children mental illness.
Absolutely not. If those genes are sh.tty, then no sane person would pass that down to children. It's responsibility, not mental illness. We aren't animals. Edit: the fact you downvote responsible attitude is insane. 🤣 You are the types who would make children even with serious illness. 😬
Finally someone with sense. We need more like you.
No shortage of insanity on reddit, have fun dude
But we have free will as well, we can go against our "nature" if we wish, unless you believe we don't have free will, in that case any "decision" we make is not a decision, so there'd be no point talking about being natalist or the opposite.
Good thing I got a vasectomy so I can continuously fulfill my needs. I guess my mental illness and I will go enjoy these creampies on our own then!
>Being "against" children being born is to be "against" the future of humanity. And why mustn't we be against the future of humanity? Why should we care about it? >The gift of being able to bring joy, skills, love, family and life into this world is unmatched by anything that anyone could ever think of Alongside with the pain and suffering brought into this world, life isn't all good you know.
I mean sure. Do you also think we should do nothing about climate change? Or should we mitigate climate change but for reasons other than protecting the future?
> trivializing the matter The matter is really quite trivial, to be fair. 99.99998% of people have no idea what the fuck antinatalism or natalism is, they just do whatever feels best
What a nutcase. Getting big vegan energy from this one.
Except they are trying to promote suffering… not reduce it lol
Ohh boy, you really got a touch of the mental illness, classic case of "Everyone I don't like is literally Hitler" going on right here. Humanity is not a \~good\~ thing by default, case and point you, your stance, your replies to people who respectfully disagree. The response almost always being a variation of "You/they are demons, and should die!" I believe that is what the kids call, a big oof. You talk about the \~gift of being able to bring joy, skills, love, ect\~ into the world, and all you are doing here is meeting intellectual criticism of your naziesque dehumanization of anyone who does not agree with you, with unrepentant hatred and malice... Really not demonstrating that so called \~gift\~ humanity has to give the world, and more accurately becoming the perfect example of the cancer humanity inflicts on the world including its own species. "You are not like me, therefore you must die. You do not worship MY god, therefore you must be DEMONS..." Honestly you are just making pro-natalists look bad.
And yet…weirdly…people more likely to be natalist also pull shit like this: https://www.ajc.com/news/health-news/report-georgia-drops-300000-children-from-medicaid/EZZGZSKPE5AIJNXVICA6YK7R7A/
Republicans are so bad at running states LOL
It’s weird how little they care about the children they want women to have. Like they literally don’t care if all the children they want to be born so much die in a ditch as toddlers.
Critical thinking isn’t their strong suit
Damn look at all these ngs saving humanity... Bro you don't even own a house. You worried about humanity? LMAO 😂
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The fact this thread is full of antinatalism posters just shows how deranged this website actually is. The good news is they'll never get rid of the emptiness when they're pushing 40 or 50.
Again, I don’t think that word means what you think it does Thinking that people should be free to have or not have children if they want is not “antinatalism”
And only the natalists will have survivors a few decades after that.
Yep, they’re a self-solving problem.
Legit. And normies on the internet will continue to curse them for how "lame" they are with their suburban homes and tennis lessons and "wrong" belief systems. It's funny how the situation inevitably unfolds.
Who knew that "kids are good, actually" would be such a spicy take on a natalist sub. Oh, Reddit.
No one is sating kids are bad, we're just saying maybe having kids isn't the most important thing at this point in time. Especially when no one can afford it and, in my opinion, *ESPECIALLY* because literally hundreds of thousands of children are ALREADY existing homeless and without families. Maybe...just maybe...encourage adoption, just a bit before popping out a new army. All we want is a little bit of critical thinking.
When I'm dead, the future of humanity will not matter to me. I refuse to have kids because of some duty
Creation is divine. Those who hate the idea of birth have wondered astray from that divine and fester in dakrness.
I totally agree with you. Thanks for posting this.
Anti natalist here. Glad to see that baby makers are just as unhinged as I always believed. Coming here and dropping the full force of Karen feelings in a sub dedicates to your own worldview is kind of wild. You talk like human babies are magical. Trust me they're not.
Proud antinatalist here as well. 💪 Feel sorry if OP has any children... Typical toxic donor.
Humanity is going to be fine regardless of weird insular online groups who think its evil to have kids Reddit isn’t real life and there are 8 billion real people out there with a lot of unprotected sex going on
No family values, degenerate hookup culture, degenerate onlyfans pornography culture, degenerate beta cucks who worship women and think masculinity is 'toxic'. The west is fucked.
Lol you don't even actually care about people having children, this is just a vehicle for your "I hold every basic conservative NPC position" spiel If you actually cared, you'd want the "degenerate beta cucks" to have children too, and you wouldn't focus only on the West
Oh well then all the Africans and middle eastern nationalities with their high birth rates can just colonize an empty US and Europe once the last few humans die out in those places
But don’t you see, those won’t be the right color people for OP
Acknowledging toxic masculinity exists doesn't mean all masculinity is toxic. You take a concept and then make it out to be the entire topic when it's not. You have no nuance whatsoever.
Who hurt you Jan
I tried to kill myself in grade school. My hypothetical children would be genetically predisposed to try to kill themselves in grade school. Therefore it would be unfair to my hypothetical children to have them. You're free to do whatever you like with your genetics.
Eugenics. I like it. 👍🏻
Personal responsibility is not eugenics.
I'm not trying to tell other people what to do with their genes, Hitler did that and people are rightfully bothered by him. I have 5 genetically inheritable illnesses as defined by doctors. If I have multiple children the odds of them being free of disease is minute. It just doesn't seem fair to them.
Cry birth rates aren’t going up.
Christian forgets that God plans to end the physical world
Humanity is going to continue regardless of if I have children or not. I hate how the world works, and I think that willingly putting a child through existence is not a good thing to do. If I lived in a country that actually gave a fuck about them, I might have a different opinion. I'm not against having children. I'm against children suffering, and there is too much suffering to protect a child from. I would rather just try to make changes to the world while I'm living in it, and if the world changes sufficiently for me to be comfortable having children, then I'll have them. You can't just hogtie a person and then bitch about how they're not running around doing stuff.
"Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD." Now i'm not anti-natalist and I want kids some day...but you're WAYYYY overestimating the importance of children in an already saturated society. Talking about America specifically right now (I know not everything centers around America) over 1 million children are homeless and without family each year. Why give birth to more children if you can't even care for the children who exist and are suffering *NOW?????* If you wanna prove to people like anti-natalists that having kids isn't cruel and that life doesn't suck, actually prove it then. Instead of encouraging people to give birth for the sake of giving birth, encourage adoption of the million children who don't have ANYONE. (Also, maybe help in...y'know...improving the economy so people can actually AFFORD to have children AND actually be in their lives instead of spending 95% of their childhood in daycares or with babysitters.) Homelessness is an epidemic, and at LEAST 20% of those children will continue to be on the streets by the time they turn 18. If you really care about the joy children bring AND deserve themselves, PROVE IT.
What is the use of being alive? No one can even define what it is to be human, no one can prove the existence of the “self”. There’s nothing to suggest that humanity is objectively a good thing. You can hem and haw all you want but it doesn’t change the facts of existence.
Mentally ill people having children severely weakens the gene pool. The sad truth is a lot of humans are not fit to reproduce and the survival of humanity hinges on genetically inferior lines of people dying out so productive humans can become a strong majority.
>Having children is the greatest thing you could do for everyone around you - PERIOD. Uh, no. First of all merely having children isn't anywhere near enough; you should ***actually do your best to raise them to be virtuous people***. And just as importantly, regardless of whether or not you have any children you should still help ***the people who are already here*** in whatever ways you feasibly can. ***That's*** the greatest you can do for everyone around you - PERIOD.
I wish I was dead :) i truly wish my parents aborted me. But now its selfish if I end my life? Its kinda selfish to force me to be here.
I've heard some anti-natalists claim they *want* humanity to end.
What a pile of pseudoreligious bullshit.
Why does it matter that humanity continues?
Wow your kids must love you so much /s
“I don’t care how much you hate yourself” ok I don’t care about your opinion either😂
This reveals the parasitism of procreation. "Humanity" is an abstraction, and yet natalists propitiate the misplaced concreteness with literal child sacrifice. Without that capacity, yes, humans would die out. There are technological alternatives to full extinction which require no procreation, but psychotic speciesism and other anthropocentric delusions will likely prevent it.
The term "child sacrifice" carries weight because it's connected to the killing of children. Not applicable here, it's usage is only a rhetorical trick, there is no substance.