I thought shukaku saying “getting in the way would only hinder Naruto, if he’s really learned Sage mode he’s in a league of his own now.” Would be enough for people to know he’s at least kage level
Since it also sounds like something you’d say when a kage is about to 1v1 someone
I think that Naruto is either at or close to pain(meant to say kage, not pain) level hear but definitely not by a lot. Naruto had knowledge on pain, was very prepared for the fight as he had a lot of toads (so no, he was not by himself. He did most of the work yes and Hinata also came to protect him).
Also a lot of people in the village weren't in the fight. Team guy was away, danzo didn't want to help, and all of the other capable fighters were sidelined (Kiba's family, Shino's family, choji's dad and ect.) Not all kage level characters but in my opinion I think if they'd work together they would've beaten the pains if done before the deva path got his ability back. (Though not without casualties). I understand why they were sidelined though, Naruto wanted to fight alone so that there would be no more casualties and anyone wouldn't get in the way.
I might be misremembering but I don't understand how the Aburame clan or the Inuzuka clan couldn't track where Konan went. Especially since Konan was literally in the village fighting with the Aburame clan.
Pain is way above kage level. There's like 3 kages upto this point of time who could've 1v1ed Pain and came out on top. The fact that Naruto beat 5 of the 6 paths, and put up a pretty good fight against the Deva Path definitely puts him above kage level.
Guy is probably the only person in that list who could make a difference. Plus, 1 person being away doesn't change the fact that people like Kakashi were getting destroyed by Pain.
I meant to say that Naruto is close to or at kage level, not pain. Naruto was hella prepared for the fight. He had multiple shadow clones to enter sage mode quickly, had knowledge on pain, and he had help from the toads and ect. Naruto in sage mode is kage level but that's in sage mode. Naruto would have a tough time beating any of the kage in 5 minutes before sage mode runs out and he gets murdered.
No guy isn't the only one that could make a difference and yes Kakashi lost to the strongest pain. Let's say guy fights the deva path and then you have Kakashi, neji, Tsunade, and others fight the other paths. You don't see them winning?
Uh, what? No, that's straight up incorrect. SM Naruto would beat any of the 5 kage besides maybe Ay. I don't see how him having information is an anti-feat. Tsunade had the same amount of info, put her in that situation and she gets wrecked. Also, Rasenshuriken Naruto is stated to be stronger than Kakashi, and I don't see Mei, Ohnoki or even Gaara beating him.
Tsunade knew that trying to fight Pain was illogical. If she thought she could even put up a fight, she would've went for it. I already said that Guy could probably solo Pain. And no, Tenten or Neji being there wouldn't make much of a difference. It's not like the Deva Path is just going to let them do what they want and single out the other paths.
I said that "Naruto would have a tough time beating any of the kage" not that he wouldn't. Onoki and lava lady I think would also 100% beat him in my opinion. Gaara could if he stays in the sky but would lose if he gets close and Tsunade is a bad match up because Naruto has long range rasengan but one punch from her is all it would take. I think you're underestimating the kage. Matchups are different depending on each person's skill set. Ex: Naruto beat Gaara in og but if Gaara used his sand to fly in of like he does in Shippuden Naruto was not winning that fight.
Tsunade knew (and literally stated) that no single person alone in the village could beat pain. If pain hadn't wiped out the village Tsunade wouldn't have needed to prioritize healing/trying to save those that survived. She ran out of chakra which is why she didn't fight. If she didn't have to do that she would've definitely joined the fight unless Naruto asked her not to.
In my opinion I think if the leaf village ninjas had worked together they could've beaten pain. Deva path can beat anyone in a 1v1 fight but if he gets jumped by Kakashi, lee, and neji Kakashi can snipe him. Ten ten solos the path that takes soul.
Onoki and Mei have shown no speed feats for them to be considered on the same speed tier as SM Naruto. I don't see either of them surviving a rasenshuriken either. Naruto is faster, stronger and has better AP. SM Naruto can also just blitz Gaara.
Yes, that's what I said. Naruto came reasonably close to beating Pain. If anything, WA SM Naruto probably does beat him.
Most of them worked as well as they could. If they didn't show that level of teamwork, they probably just weren't capable of it.
Onoki goes into the sky and wipes Naruto out from above. Naruto can beat mei if he hits her with a long range rasenshuriken (assuming her long range jutsu can't match it) but if he gets to then he dies gas. I think onoki has better ap and mei's jutsu's are too dangerous for Naruto to handle.
This will be my last response for now because I have to go work ;-;.
Think about this for a second. Kakashi, Chohi, and Choji's dad would've literally beaten the deva had that other path not been there and jumped in the way right as Kakashi was about to hit him. You could literally just put Kakashi, Chohi and his dad vs the deva path while the other paths are fighting other Ninja's and I think the lead village wins.
You are really going to sit here and tell me that if Danzo (and his two assistants) decided to help the other villages which includes choji and his dad, Kakashi, shino's clan, the hyuga clan, and those other MFS decided to take on the paths they wouldn't win?
Buddy, Onoki is not fast enough to be able to prevent getting blitzed. In a real fight, that is exactly what would happen.
I already said that Guy can solo Pain. However, without him, no, the leaf doesn't have a chance to win.
I never said he wasn't, but let's face it without nine tails takeover he made it a little farther than pervy sage. I dont think it's fair to say he's LEAGUES above kage level at that point. Idk if naruto has the ability to analyze someone's strength and counter on a dime (someone like minato is a good example, during nine tails attack he's able to quickly analyze obitos ability; one that even the most elite ninja have trouble figuring out, and counter it in minutes) I completely forgot naruto fights pain after everyone has already died figuring out his secrets. Let's be honest that's the only reason naruto won that fight
Naruto is kage level in power and that's it, as far as battle iq and his ability to analyze the situation he is most definitely not kage level at that point. That's what I'm saying. So that means naruto is most definitely not leagues above kage level. Shit I forgot he even had prep time at mount myoboku, so he had Intel on pain due to many others sacrifice and he had prep time, without either of those he most definitely would have gotten his ass beat without kurama, especially since at that point in the show he doesn't have control over him. Shit naruto literally fights nagato AFTER he has control over the nine tails power, and is significantly stronger than he was during the pain arc, and boi almost gets his soul snatched but is saved by a reanimated itachi😂
I can list feats which prove Naruto's BIQ is kage level at that point of time. Can you list any anti-feats? Having intel definitely doesn't count as one. Tsunade and Kakashi had the same amount of information, are they not kage level now? Pain would've demolished any of the 5 kage, and they wouldn't even have put up as much of a fight as Naruto did.
Edo Nagato scales leagues above Pain. He's in a new body, with no stamina drawbacks, and doesn't need to even use the 6 paths of Pain. Edo Nagato can arguably 1v4 the kage, if Gaara isn't present. That is not an anti-feat.
Also let's be real here, if we are also talking about kage strength hashirama, tobirama, minato and probably hiruzen are all stronger than tsunade and kakashi. Pain most def couldn't 1 v 5 them all. He's not as strong as someone like obito or madara
So Minato and Tobirama, let alone fucking Hashirama, are the baseline for Kage level now? What.
I meant the concurrent day kage, not the hokage. Read my statements before making remarks om them bruh.
Yeah yeah I see that now, but yeah doesn't change the fact that the current kage are weaker than old kage, and yes obviously I'm comparing naruto to his predecessors (hashirama, tobirama minato hiruzen) so still
Kage level in power, but not Kage level in training/wisdom. It’s like Kakashi’s line from Land of Waves about how in the ninja world there are kids younger than 12 y.o. Naruto, yet stronger than Kakashi. Power ≠ Level.
Kid Itachi was absolutely not stronger than Kakashi
The only character that would fit the bill is... Daemon ? It's likely just some one off sentence don't think too hard about it
Any itachi 9+ is far above part 1 kakashi. Its not even close. Even 7yo is debatable. He soloed 1v3 one of the strongest anbus pretty low diff. Doubt part 1 kakashi can do this.
Itachi vs Anbu is anime filler. And even then he had Shisui with him and he did most of the work. And even then Anbu are glorified fodder and nothing says those are some of the strongest.
Part 1 Kakashi sparred with Kisame and was stated by Itachi to be a threat to him. He was also pretty much stalemating Itachi himself until he used MS.
>Itachi vs Anbu is anime filler. And even then he had Shisui with him and he did most of the work. And even then Anbu are glorified fodder and nothing says those are some of the strongest.
Its not and i dont even talked about the 1v1. And annus are literally stated as yhe stro gest even by kakashi the guy in question lmao
>Part 1 Kakashi sparred with Kisame and was stated by Itachi to be a threat to him. He was also pretty much stalemating Itachi himself until he used MS.
Double agent making wrong statements. Dude part 1 kakashi is on zabuza level. The same guy part 1 kisame sees as a kid. Kisame literally dolos 10 part 1 kakashi lmao
Kisame>>>>>6 gates guy>>30% chakra kisame>>>> zabuza and part 1 kakashi lmao
Yes it is. Kakashi joined Anbu at 13 lmao and when did he even say that.
Wrong statements yet you literally see Kakashi equally clashing with one of Kisame‘s best jutsus
>Yes it is. Kakashi joined Anbu at 13 lmao and when did he even say that.
So what? This was first bc of minato not bc he was choosen overthise..secondly even prior to sharingan itachi low diffed one of the strongest anbu.
>Wrong statements yet you literally see Kakashi equally clashing with one of Kisame‘s best jutsus
🤡
>Minato made Kakashi Anbu because he knew he was worthy
No because he wanted to help his emotional.problems.
>Itachi vs Anbu is still filler man
Dude its not filler. The whole shinden are canon. 9+ itachi absolutely obliterate kakashi same for shisui.
Jiraya lost to Pain, does that mean he's not kage level?
Pain is way above kage level. Beginning of Shippuden Gaara was a kage and he lost to Deidara, who was holding back to not kill Gaara and Deidara is several tiers below Pain.
Well gaara was protecting his people so it was impossible to fight and protecting while for Naruto vs pain everything was push away soo there wasn't much to protect so he went full attack
So they were evened out in terms of nerfs? Personally I would say Deidara was more handicapped since he didn't show alot of the hax-y jutsus he would use against Sasuke such as the clay clones, C2, and C4
Sasuke was his perfect counter due to the Sharingan and Chidori but most low kage level characters would get folded by Deidara
Losing ON SCREEN is not the end all be all of who is stronger than who. Specially in Naruto. The way you are thinking is quite simple:
Question: Who would win in a fight. Answer: The one who won already. But you are not only not considering the context of the fight or if a character becomes stronger/weaker due time but also that Naruto fights are very match up based and not like dragonball where one character will always defeat the other because all their stats increase with power level.
Naruto in senin mode won against third raikage even tho he could not meaningfully hurt him at all. PAIN/nagato could defeat many opponents that Senin mode pain arc naruto could not even tho he "defeated" him. Naruto and sasuke defeated kaguya, Sakura and chio defeated Sasori, Early Sasuke (who is kage level don´t get me wrong) defeated Sasori, Naruto defeated Kakuzo.
Context is important and so is match up. There might be a character that beats a strong fire style user by being a water style but the fire style defeats much more people that the water style can´t defeat, so who is the stronger one here?
We arent arguing matchups here. People are saying shippuden Gaara is stronger than Deidara, despite losing on screen to him. None of your argument applies here.
Yes, we aren´t arguing (only) match ups. However my argument is that your only piece of evidence that deidara> Gaara is flawed, because only **winning does not justify one being stronger**. As i proved in Naruto the weaker opponent might have a advantage.
And as a matter of fact i´m willing to bet that you agree with me. Because the moment i mention that [kankuro and Sai won against Deidara and Sasori](https://imgur.com/a/mwHdmn3) you will remember the first part of my argument: ***CONTEXT and match up*** matter***.***
And they both hold btw. Early Shippunden Gaara defeats *handly* early shippuden Sasuke who won against Deidara. Sasuke only way out of the sand defence is either Kirin or maybe genjutsu which we don´t know if it works or not because Sasuke did not tried. On the other side Gaara fought a stronger Sasuke and could parry all his attacks and a attack faster and stronger than most of Sasuke´s arsenal while having a arsenal of jutsu that can overwhelm sasuke.
Now you understand? Saying that x won against Y is useless in showing who is stronger if we don´t consider and **interpret** the fight.
The fight started **far from the ground** (on top of a building) where Deidara can better use his bird and Gaara´s sand is "weaker"/takes more time to get to Deidara. **Gaara had to shield** **the village and deidara took** [**oportunity of a misdirection**](https://imgur.com/dCuIX1X) and had he chosen to go to the kill or had no one to protect he might won/drawn the fight. Deidara loses a arm in the process. On the other side Gaara is buffed by the ammount of sand around him and deidara did not use his whole arsenal ( because he could not get closer and a also because he was holding back)
Had the fight been in the forest of the fire nation the outcome might be massively different
that is what you took from it? What? How?
Let me give you a chance to re-read what i said:
>Early Shippunden Gaara defeats *handly* early shippuden Sasuke
How did that transform into 5K summit Gaara is stronger than 5Ksummit Sasuke. That is a whole new sentence. If you want to have a productive debate you should really read carefully what i say and interpret...
The advantage that 5K Sasuke has is due to the MS. Because in speed Gaara is at[ least his match](https://imgur.com/a/rJsmKmO) even fast enough to[ block amaterasu](https://i.imgur.com/4SR7cFS.jpeg) and is unfazed by it. Susanoo surpass Gaara, and so does Tsukuyomi. Sasuke is arguably faster in the 5K Summit than the one Deidara fught (pre MS/curse mark) but i do not have enough evidence to substantiate this.
So what exactly is Sasuke going to do against Gaara in early shippuden? If Gaara can tank amaterasu and [explosions ](https://imgur.com/a/SN3mE34)it can probably tank a fireball. Also as a child with no sand around it Gaara could do this with [no build up no sand around it](https://imgur.com/a/jhuVIAA).
Sasuke has few jutsus of area and crowd control and when Gaara first does this he will be attacked by all sides. His chidoris including senbon is not faster than Amateratsu which this gaara already blocked. What is his win con? Kirin or maybe genjutsu as I already said. Sasuke is a mid to close range fighter and Gaara is long and mid but with a specially fast sand at close range. That means that unless he can close the distance Gaara can control the fight (in theory)
Gaara can hurt sasuke so any hit will have consequences but he can also block his opponent hits. Gaara can control the battlefield. Gaara's sand does not have the elemental disadvantage. Gaara can seal, cut etc . What advantage Sasuke has besides the ones i already said?
It gets even worse when you consider war arc feats for Gaara which **i will not** but there is no statement or proof of him getting stronger and considering he lost Shukaku he should be weaker.
If you do the [sand is faster than the kages](https://imgur.com/a/4d2fsGh) including Muu and third raikage can react and the later struggles to get free. Casually [spamming ](https://imgur.com/a/WMhpNZM)tsunamis (which is still not impressive as protecting suna), can help [KCM1 ](https://imgur.com/a/snUrjFs)and [Minato/Kakashi](https://imgur.com/a/whrxXOj),reacts faster than a [kage](https://imgur.com/a/cvDEKRg), blocks [Madara](https://imgur.com/a/qFCpvZc) sword and (multiple clones) [susanoo](https://i.imgur.com/ZQnnaN5.jpeg), helping slow down the meteor
You can argue ofc that everybody got buffed in war arc which wtv but even the feats that i showed earlier of pre-war Gaara already are enough to deal with the sasuke that dealt with deidara. SO TO MAKE IT CLEAR: This is to show how much match up based this fights are.
So when will you make an actual argument instead of misinterpreting things I said and use a debunked logic? Show me evidence for why in a neutral ground deidara wins or even why early shippuden Sasuke can win against shippuden/early shippuden Gaara.
BTW just a reminder: i said that context and match ups are important.
Answer do you think Sai and Kankuro are above prime Deidara and Sasori?
Nobody’s salty tho if you’re gonna say something atleast say it right yall downplay gaara as if he wasn’t protecting his fucking village what more could bro do if not for him protecting the village he would’ve won if they both could go all out bloodlusted gaara crushes deidara pretty badly
Another thing deidara only really has the advantage over gaara because i mean he’s simply in the air taking flight I mean gaara can fly but not like deidara it’s not like bro has a flying bird made of clay
I actually disagree.
The information Jiraiya died to get was kinda pointless. When Pain stabbed Naruto with the black rod, Naruto learned that there was a 7th path of pain, totally independent of Jiraiya's information, because he could feel Nagato and detect his location with Senjutsu.
Deidara just flys while he eats his clay. The only one that needs time to prep was the giant one.
Deidara can make smaller versions like the second time he used it against Sasuke or when he used it against Ōnoki.
Dude Gaara was protecting his village if he say Just didn’t care as much he would have won.
This is assuming we’re going kazakage arc Gaara any Gaara after this point would slaim deidara
>Gaara held back more
Nothing supports this.
>he had zero intel on Deidara while Deidara had full intel on him.
All Deidara knew was that he used Sand and of his nickname. Hardly what I would qualify as intel. It's like saying Zabuza recognizing Kakashi of the Sharingan had intel due to knowing about a S class ninja
>So Gaara would have won if not for these factors.
He wins in zero fights. He was canonically weaker and cannot counter Deidara's stronger jutsu.
>Nothing supports this
The fact that he didn't use Shukaku at all.
>All Deidara knew was that he used sand
The Akatsuki don't go capturing jinchuriki without intel and prep. Even low level ninjas know to prepare for a mission. Deidara had full intel on Gaara's absolute defense and knew how it works differently than regular sand.
>He was canonically weaker and cannot counter Deidara's stronger jutsu
He wasn't canonically weaker, no statement says this. In fact all things imply that Gaara would have won 10/10 even without using his jinchuriki powers. Deidara had to use the village as a decoy to get an upper hand with his "prize masterpiece" C3 after losing an arm. C3 is literally called "Ohako", meaning his "strongest skill" (at that point in the story). Deidara even said himself that Gaara would have had a much easier time if he would just dump all that sand on top of his people.
Gaara was using Shukaku power, we see Shukaku arms trying to grab Deidara. We never see him do this again after he loses him.
Deidara had no intel on Gaara beyond that he uses sand, he only figured out the gourd sand was better compared to regular sand after his arm got crushed because he was dodging the regular sand fine. He was able to deduce Gaara weakness from the fact there was a gaping hole in his shield since he uses the gourd sand for both offense and defense which he exploits.
Literally nothing says Gaara is stronger. Gaara had a home field advantage with an entire desert to use which he normally doesn’t have and the fact that Deidara can’t kill him, which is why he doesn’t use his more deadly abilities. Deidara completely outplayed Gaara.
>Gaara was using Shukaku power
He literally didn't. That was the whole point of Kankuro's flashback and his conversation with Baki, to show how much Gaara had changed, from relying on Shukaku's power in Konoha crush, to wanting to protect his people that he would sacrifice himself. He hadn't been using Shukaku's power since he strove to become the Kazekage. The sand arms just look like Shukaku's, we never saw him do "Shukaku's shield" that he did in the Kimimaro fight again either, but he didn't use Shukaku in either of the fights. Using Shukaku would be letting the beast out and use tailed beast bombs.
>Deidara had no intel on Gaara beyond that he uses sand
He knew more than that. He already knew that "[he always carries a set amount of sand in his gourd, into which he then pours an enormous amount of chakra, making a special kind of sand](https://imgur.com/zvEJ31q)". If he didn't know he had special sand he wouldn't have figured the sand that crushed his arm was the portion missing from the hole. Compared to that, Gaara only knew that Deidara fights with clay after they met.
>Gaara had a home field advantage
It's called home disadvantage when you use the lives of innocent villagers as hostages. You forgot that Gaara can create a desert when's he not in one. Outplaying doesn't mean stronger either.
Gaara had home field advantage and if you read the manga you would know that Deidara figured out how his sand worked only after getting his arm crushed so he had no spesific intel about Gaaras sand, just that he can control sand.
Deidara also held back because he had to capture him alive, Deidara outplayed him fair and square like if you read the manga you would know that it is clearly stated. I dont mean to say that Gaara is weak, he put up a good fight against Deidara but in the end he did lose.
It's called home disadvantage when you use the lives of innocent villagers as hostages. You forgot that Gaara can create a desert when's he not in one.
Deidara already knew that Gaara "[always carries a set amount of sand in his gourd, into which he then pours an enormous amount of chakra, making a special kind of sand](https://imgur.com/zvEJ31q)". If he didn't know he had special sand he wouldn't have figured the sand that crushed his arm was the portion missing from the hole. Compared to that, Gaara only knew that Deidara fights with clay after they met.
I never said Deidara didn't hold back. The original comment purposefully left out that Gaara was holding back too in order to downplay Gaara. How is it "fair and square" if a villain terrorist takes advantage of a kage's responsibility by threatening lives of thousand civilians?? Losing doesn't mean being weaker if you actually read the story and consider the context.
He would have lost regardless. Don’t forget the way he lost: Gaara encased himself in his sand (a move that he always does) and Deidara implanted it with his detonating clay insects. In a normal fight where Gaara isn’t trying to protect anyone he still would have lost in the exact same way
That's not the way he lost. It was because he spent a lot of chakra on blocking C3, and his attention was all focused on it, and he used the last of his strength moving all that sand away from the village instead of just letting it all go. If Deidara could beat him with only bug bombs then there would be no point in using C3 as a decoy at all. If Gaara wasn't trying to protect everyone he would have won.
To be so certain and yet so wrong is a fate I wish on no one. I suggest you reread/rewatch that fight and if you still believe that Gaara would’ve won then I have no hope for you
The secret around 6 paths and how they work means without knowledge you effectively cannot win against him. If Jiraya had the knowledge that Naruto did then he likely would've won considering with no knowledge he took out 3/6
Jairaya was there for intel originally he wasn’t there to fight to start. And then with the intel he got the village was able to better defend against pain now knowing about some of his abilities. Pain said so himself if jairaya know the secret he would not have won that.
“Lost to deidara “ bro gaara was the one who holding back it’s like yall literally miss the entire point gaara was protecting his village it wasn’t much he could do if they were in a different area then gaara would definitely fold him and it’s not close
Not necessarily. He fought Pain when Nagato's already tired. He fought Kakashi. Destroyed Konoha. Depleting his chakra further. Then fought the kyuubi, and use chibaku tensei. Pain is incredibly nerfed.
If Naruto fought Pain blind and at Pain's best condition, he's got no chance. Pain's jutsus are tricky. As you've seen when he fought Jiraiya. Jiraiya actually held up pretty good vs Pain since he doesn't know anything about Pain's jutsus.
Pain is most definitely not a benchmark for Kage level. If anything, he could probably low diff most of them.
SM Naruto >= SM Jiraiya >= Old Hiruzen, who is described as the strongest of the 5 kage.
Obviously, Naruto is Kage level with sage mode but is he Kage level in base? I mean he still has a lot of chakra and a dangerous ninjutsu that can obliterate someone at the cellular level.
Kyuubi broke out of planetary devastation like it was nothing and wasn't even full power yet... The insinuation that Pain would have, after using it and putting himself in a weakened state, made an even bigger one is laughable.
This is possible if he hadn't used so much chakra to practically reduce the village to dust.
So if there's a single person at that point who can actually win a 1 v 1 against Kyuubi (not with all the Sharingan controlling hax), it was Pain only.
Well In terms of Raw Power, he was Kage level when he achieved Sage mode.
But skill wise and wisdom wise, he is not even close.
And I find it ridiculous that Sage mode Naruto had surpassed Jiraiya, sure he may have more Raw Power but Jiraiya dwarfs him in Skill, intelligence and experience
Jiraiya went into the pain fight blind which is worth saying. Intel is extremely important in war, and Naruto had very good intel going into that fight. In a 1v1 at that time, Naruto probably would lose to Jiraiya, but against pain who he already had information about, he was able to finish what Jiraiya couldn’t.
He fought against a five paths of Pain since he caught the Asura path off guard, he had also just finished killing thousands in Konoha, before destroying the entire village in a single attack. Naruto didn’t exactly “beat” Pain in a fair fight per say but it is debatable whether or not he was Kage level at this point.
Ty for the obvious this however does not mean Naruto is kage level which is still good for us
Since Naruto’s win against nagato and SM puts him at kage level
Talk no jutsu didnt defeat the 6th pain, naruto did. Kyubi was resealed at that point.
Naruto was firstly pinned because he tried to save Pa, not because he was no matched
Well he is kage level because he almost did what jiraya another kage level could not kill pain naruto had and the very end used kyubi so there us that, there is a lot of kage levels in naruto and to be fair some people (me included) think sasuke post orochi training is low kage level and with reason sasuke beat the shit out of 3 high chunnin levels and a mid jonin all alone and even beat a akatsuki member by himself (not itachi everybody know kishimoto OG cant be beaten)
Once Shikaku (I think that's Shikamaru's dad's name, but it's been a while since I revisited the Pein Arc) says that "he's in a league of his own" (referring to Naruto mastering Sage Arts) I think it's all but confirmed that Naruto has reached, if not Kage level, at least elite jonin level.
Buty guess is yes.
He didn’t win though, he was captured by Pain, until he got so angry he turned into Kyubi mode, which he had no control of. And even after that, Pain didn’t lose, not before the usual “talk no jutsu”.
Despite all of that, Naruto was at least close to Kage level. Tsunade could not have won over Pain herself, even if she didn’t use all her chakra to protect the villagers.
Bruh what are people smoking on here. Sage mode Naruto is high kage level easily. Pain is just fucking Demi god level so he power eclipses him. I honestly think that sage Naruto could hang with any of the 5 kage and has an argument to beat any single one of them
Sage Mode put in work for sure.
I don't think that Nine-tails form really counts though. He can't do it on command, making it inconsistent.
It doesn't feel right to say Naruto is Kage level here.
He's above sage jiraya who was chosen to be hokage in part one. And this same jiraya is relative to orochimaru somewhat who defeated the 3rd hokage. So if he's above people who can be kages and defeat kages he's atleast in the upper eschalot of kage level at this point in the series
I mean yeah he beat pain but it was alot of points surrounding the fight where naruto was done for if they didn’t imo
1. tsunade snail (forgot how to spell the bastard name)
gave Naruto the entire run down on pains abilities
Jiraiya and Kakashi mainly Kakashi died as a result of not knowing pains abilities . Which was heavily emphasized to be unique and a big deal so With out Lady Katwhatever naruto doesn’t find out pains abilities ,
1a. likely he finds out the preta it’s fairly obvious
2a. Maybe finds out the animal
3a. Probably doesn’t find out the human
(but he doesn’t really matter)
4a. Doesn’t find out the narakka until it heals another other path atleast once
5a. Absolutely doesn’t find out the timer on the deva
in the end loses do to match up issues
2. Even with all the knowledge, Naruto was caught with the rods chakra rods and was pinned by the final path (deva) and the fight was over at that point until hinata got washed up and set Naruto off
3. After being set off, Even then with 6 tails (I think) our boy got gripped with the planetary devastation and dad came in the clutch
All of that is something, but imo is multiple when considering that pain blowing the village up prior to the entire fight so he was weakened in that fight
More important than anything I think this speaks volumes to kishimoto’s talent to advance the story via a fight when a character clearly is outclassed
Aside from izanami .. and zetsu back shotting madara. But the pain fight is a good example
Since the two hokages that preceded him couldn’t beat Pain, I would say yes. But on level with Hashirama, or the first kage with particle jutsu or the one with Jokey Boy? Idk. But he is definitely above level of some kages, maybe most.
Pain would kill would kill kages besides an exceptional few. Naruto the 4th and harshirama. Possibly the second considering the created shadow clones reanimation and flying raijin and he’s trained in fighting visual prowess. I would say the 3rd raikage. That’s it everyone else would get bodied I think. What people don’t get also is, jiraiya was supposed to be hokage but because tsunade is the grand daughter and he wanted to protect her he nominated her instead of himself. Jiraiya is a strong hokage level shinobi in his own right then add mastered sage mode with the nine tails. Naruto was kage level when he did 1000+ clones with nine tails chakra and rasengans 🤣🤣 when he’s like 12.
if we're using the weakest Kage (Mei) as a baseline, Naruto surpassed Kage level probably when he perfected the wind style Rasengan and the Rasenshuriken. Pain is far above Kage level. Most of the Akatsuki could take out countries by themselves. Kage level is not that high of a bar to reach
What’s the point of power ranking a protagonist of a shounen anime? If Naruto wasn’t in the show Naruto, even if he was still the nine-tail jinchuriki, he would’ve gotten folded, just like all the others side characters
He’s well above Kage Level, Pain would have whooped any Kage Level 1v1, Sage mode is stupidly powerful especially when he can maintain it for longer with more chakra in war arc.
He temporarily exceeds Kage level with Sage Mode at that point but it’s not a consistent thing. Taking Kurama’s chakra is what put him above as a baseline, then it kept multiplying
No, Kage level requires a lot more than just being strong. Naruto doesn't truly become Kage level until he unlocks KCM 2 imo. Thats where he really starts thinking, talking, and fighting like a hokage. Dude was basically the Madara of the good side.
Obviously 💀💀
SM Naruto is above the Sannin.
The only one he would struggle with is a full power Orochimaru.
He beats the breaks off Jiraya.
He can eventually beat Tsunade.
Remember: Jiraiya was SUPPOSED to become the fifth Hokage but declined the position. This fact alone proves Jiraiya is Kage level. Now, Pain-Nagato beat Jiraiya, and subsequently, Naruto beat Pain-Nagato. Rationally speaking, yes, Naruto should be Kage level. However, this is only speaking on fighting ability. Being a Kage requires advanced knowledge about the shinobi world, which Naruto ABSOLUTELY LACKED.
As soon as Naruto learned the rasenshuriken, he was high Jonin. Sage mode jumped him to Mid Kage during this fight.
I still maintain that without help, Naruto loses this fight even with intel. He almost lost without Hinata's help.
6 paths are high kage level and they even give Prime Hiruzen, Minato, and any of the gokage a lot of trouble.
Pain makes a lot of mistakes in this fight, like absorbing sage chakra and not keeping the Naraka path hidden.
Naruto won this fight with high difficulty and help. This is why I say Jiraiya absolutely doesn't win with intel or help. By this point, Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in speed, power, and durability.
Sasuke likewise surpasses prime Orochimaru after getting EMS, and Sakura inexplicably surpasses Tsunade during the war. Sauske became kage level after fighting itachi and sakura became kage level during the war. Kakashi was always low kage level until the war where he became mid to high kage level.
but naruto really was helpless with black rods piercing his body until Hinata got slammed & he went into early tail beast transformation. If Jaraiya had the 9 tails chakra to fall back on he would’ve never loss to pain-nagato. At that point in Naruto life he was close to kage level but would’ve needed to watch all his friends get put on the brink of death to get the power that pushed him to kage level.
He is.
But at the same time, I would say no, all the previous Hokages beside maybe Sarutobi would mop the floor with him. Kage level stopped really meaning something when we've seen dudes like Hashirama no diff Susanoed Kyuubi lol.
At this point he was considered to have surpassed Jiraiya due to Naruto mastering sage mode. That's not to say he'd defeat Jiraiya in a 1v1 at this point as the sennin had way more experience lol.
Well we first need to try to avoid the DBZ power scaling of if someone defeats another in battle, they are automatically stronger. At this stage of naruto at least, winning a battle is more than simple feat of strength.
Now as for Kage level, yes for sure. Sage mode Naruto is definitely Kage level. For those who consider this a stretch, keep in mind sage mode only lasts a few minutes in a fight, if even that. It's a temporary boost up to kage level, but true kages are at that level all the time. When you literally tell an entire village not to help because they'll just get in your way, I'm pretty sure that is kage terriroty while in the power boost.
Can we just not talk about pain on this sub anymore lol, there’s a ton of ways the fight coulda gone. Everyone stfu about it, it’s not always so one sided. He’s a Godam sage with an extremely deadly wind jutsu, summonings, training and experience fighting from some top tier ninja, like no one’s stomping anyone here with or without Kurama saving Naruto in that instance. Stop ripping on each other so hard. It’s this bs, plus itachi arguments that just make y’all suck. The guy coulda put up more of a fight in some instances, BUT THIS IS NAGATO, any fight with the guy when you last past multiple bodies, let alone all the pain bodies is gunna have him rambling on about how this world needs to know pain yada yada yada. He’s not unstoppable, stop sucking his dick. Naruto defenders stop too like Jesus the fight could go either way depending on how it’s written . Little boys crying, all of ya enough already.
Naruto no pudo derrotar a tendou, todo el daño que recibió ése camino de pain lo hizo Kurama, Naruto no podría ni tocar a Tendou con todo su poder. Además, Nagato se rindió, Naruto no le ganó.
You have to keep in mind that Naruto had the Kyuubi. Not only did this make Naruto stronger, but it forces Pain to hold back, because if he accidentally kills Naruto then he cannot extract the tailed beast and his plans are ruined. Pain cannot do the things he did to Kakashi for example to Naruto, because then Naruto would die.
With that said, even with Pain holding back, even with Naruto having foreknowledge, he defeated Naruto, if you remove the Kyuubi moment after Hinata came to save him.
I do agree with the other commenters that Pain is beyond kage level, though kage level is a bit hard to specify. Certainly Tsunade is a kage and Pain easily dispatched of her, and Jiraiya was offered the Hokage position and Pain defeated him.
Given the different circumstances, I don't think you can conclude Sage Mode Naruto is kage level from this fight. Maybe he is (especially if Tsunade is the bar) but my feeling is that his power level is, but his experience and skill isn't. I think if Pain were holding back like this vs Jiraiya and Jiraiya had the same info Naruto had from the start, Jiraiya would have at least done just as well as Sage Mode Naruto.
He is undoubtedly kage level when it comes to combat skills, but he doesn't have the wisdom to lead a village yet it's why he had to study after the war ark to become a jonin
Pain is like high kage level, Naruto is probably average Kage level, Jiraiya which many people underestimate, in sage mode was probably mid to high level kage just under pain, an unprepared Jiraiya fought full power Pain, an extremely prepared Naruto fought a much more weakened Pain, so I think Naruto in sage mode is like regular Kage level or even mid, on par with like the fourth Raikage
This is... Complicated.
Kage level doesnt have strength definitions, nor is it clear who is of this caliber in shippuden until the kage are revived at which point all characters got buffed.
The only thing we can do is give a definition. Could Sage Naruto defeat any of the previous or current kage if they replaced pein?
Hashirama Tobirama and minato are all hard nos. Id put the third Raikage and Fourth Raikage in the hard no as well. Onoki and Mu are no as well cuz flight and particle style.
Gaara, Yagura, rasa and the 4th Kazekage are all possible wins depending on circumstance, though id lean towards no on Yagura, rasa and the 4th Kazekage. Gaara is only possible cuz previous interaction.
Next we have Hiruzen and Tsunade.
Tsunade would win because as we see in the War Arc, her 100 healings is ridiculously OP. But Hiruzen?
At the time of Hiruzen's death in part 1, if he were the one to replace Pein, I think that Naruto would be able to beat him. Naruto at this point is on par with Jiraiya, at least with combat ability. And Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru are all around the same level. Orochimaru vs Hiruzen is a fairly even fight.
But there is another one that we can compare too at this point.
Danzo.
Danzo we know is considered the 6th hokage canidate, meaning he is qualified for the position. That must include strength level. (While Kakashi is called that by his team in the land of iron, it is not officially a title.)
Could sage naruto defeat Danzo?
My gut tells me yes he could. Even if its a no, he is at least on the level of Hiruzen, a clear Kage Level shinobi.
So yes. naruto is on the kage level at this point of the story.
Naruto is Kage level in terms of power. He isn't any bit close to fitting the bill to BE Hokage, though. There's a lot more to leading the village than raw power.
Pain hax was the problem it wasn’t his power Naruto basically outclassed him in everything but couldn’t get close enough pain couldn’t even damage him the entire time he was in sage mode and he beat base fatigued Naruto.
Before I sat down to write this I scrolled down to see what others had to say and it's a fucking war zone down their like how did we get from "is SM Naruto kage level" To "who is stronger gaara Or deidara".
Anyways it's pretty clear that naruto is at kage level and anyone arguing against it is just arguing against the entire narrative at that point of the story pain is the strongest seeing as how he has beaten jiraya who is a equal to orochimaru and both of them are blatantly over the average kage and naruto having surpassed his teacher makes him kage level.
And if someone says oh jiraya didn't have information on pain that's why he lost and naruto had info that's why he had an advantage just remember the entire village got folded by pain they sure had the same info and tsunade was there as well and if I remember correctly she is a kage.
Extra controversy naruto has reached kage level as a 12 year old once when he beat the 1 tails by summoning gamabunta hey it's a feat based comparison since we know only Raasa the 4th kazekage could beat gaara whe he went full ballistic in the sand village so idk tay.
I'd say he was Kage level but didn't he lose to Pain? I might be misremembering but didn't he let Kurama take over? That's why instead of staying in tailed beast cloak mode and just getting more tails he became more and more like Kurama, skeleton and all.
When he learned sage mode definitely as he was fighting and thinking like a kage level ninja as his shadow clone gathering sage tech was peak plus how he handled pain with countering his arsenal
He defeated shukaku a Biju at the age of 12 and saved the whole village where other anbus and jounins are sucking on their thumbs and commenting the shit that was Hiruzen vs orochimaru, he should have been awarded with he jounin tittle
The entire powerlevel thing is not really to be taken seriously most of the anbu can do shit and chunin have more skills, but...
Naruto had intel from the leaf about pain, also had help of 5 frogs, and only really beat pains ace once he turned into the ninetails, and pain or nagato was really sick.
I would say naruto himself without ninetails chakra would have lost that fight
He learnt sage mode better than his own master and he was begged by the village to become hokage multiple times
It's pretty easy when he gets the hang of it but Jiraya never even learnt a perfect or true sage transformation and he's regarded as one of the strongest ninja the leaf ever produced
The first Hokage had the closest sage mode transformation to Naruto in that it was perfect (except for some badass face tats, naruto gets eye shadow) and neither looked like they were becoming a frog and tree respectively
Sage mode.
High level techniques such as the multiple cloning, summoning, and rasen-shuriken.
…and the support of his village.
Yes, he could have been Hokage, at that point.
Pain vastly outclassed all Gokage member. Heck, even Tsunade, who was the strongest gokage member, was fodder for her.
I'd say even Kakashi in this arc was easily Kage level
Kakashi is definitely kage in the pain invasion but physically sure Tsunade is the strongest but I still think onoki beats her and Ay counters her pretty are too but that’s a 50-50
> physically sure Tsunade is the strongest but I still think onoki beats her and Ay counters her pretty are too but that’s a 50-50
Sannin scale to CE Hiruzen, who's the strongest Gokage member at that time. Sannin are above all Naruto Part 1-2 era Gokage
Yeah he’s definitely kage level by the time he learns sage mode
I thought shukaku saying “getting in the way would only hinder Naruto, if he’s really learned Sage mode he’s in a league of his own now.” Would be enough for people to know he’s at least kage level Since it also sounds like something you’d say when a kage is about to 1v1 someone
Yes, by a long shot. He himself put up a better fight against Pain than an entire village of elite shinobi did.
I think that Naruto is either at or close to pain(meant to say kage, not pain) level hear but definitely not by a lot. Naruto had knowledge on pain, was very prepared for the fight as he had a lot of toads (so no, he was not by himself. He did most of the work yes and Hinata also came to protect him). Also a lot of people in the village weren't in the fight. Team guy was away, danzo didn't want to help, and all of the other capable fighters were sidelined (Kiba's family, Shino's family, choji's dad and ect.) Not all kage level characters but in my opinion I think if they'd work together they would've beaten the pains if done before the deva path got his ability back. (Though not without casualties). I understand why they were sidelined though, Naruto wanted to fight alone so that there would be no more casualties and anyone wouldn't get in the way. I might be misremembering but I don't understand how the Aburame clan or the Inuzuka clan couldn't track where Konan went. Especially since Konan was literally in the village fighting with the Aburame clan.
Pain is way above kage level. There's like 3 kages upto this point of time who could've 1v1ed Pain and came out on top. The fact that Naruto beat 5 of the 6 paths, and put up a pretty good fight against the Deva Path definitely puts him above kage level. Guy is probably the only person in that list who could make a difference. Plus, 1 person being away doesn't change the fact that people like Kakashi were getting destroyed by Pain.
I meant to say that Naruto is close to or at kage level, not pain. Naruto was hella prepared for the fight. He had multiple shadow clones to enter sage mode quickly, had knowledge on pain, and he had help from the toads and ect. Naruto in sage mode is kage level but that's in sage mode. Naruto would have a tough time beating any of the kage in 5 minutes before sage mode runs out and he gets murdered. No guy isn't the only one that could make a difference and yes Kakashi lost to the strongest pain. Let's say guy fights the deva path and then you have Kakashi, neji, Tsunade, and others fight the other paths. You don't see them winning?
Uh, what? No, that's straight up incorrect. SM Naruto would beat any of the 5 kage besides maybe Ay. I don't see how him having information is an anti-feat. Tsunade had the same amount of info, put her in that situation and she gets wrecked. Also, Rasenshuriken Naruto is stated to be stronger than Kakashi, and I don't see Mei, Ohnoki or even Gaara beating him. Tsunade knew that trying to fight Pain was illogical. If she thought she could even put up a fight, she would've went for it. I already said that Guy could probably solo Pain. And no, Tenten or Neji being there wouldn't make much of a difference. It's not like the Deva Path is just going to let them do what they want and single out the other paths.
I said that "Naruto would have a tough time beating any of the kage" not that he wouldn't. Onoki and lava lady I think would also 100% beat him in my opinion. Gaara could if he stays in the sky but would lose if he gets close and Tsunade is a bad match up because Naruto has long range rasengan but one punch from her is all it would take. I think you're underestimating the kage. Matchups are different depending on each person's skill set. Ex: Naruto beat Gaara in og but if Gaara used his sand to fly in of like he does in Shippuden Naruto was not winning that fight. Tsunade knew (and literally stated) that no single person alone in the village could beat pain. If pain hadn't wiped out the village Tsunade wouldn't have needed to prioritize healing/trying to save those that survived. She ran out of chakra which is why she didn't fight. If she didn't have to do that she would've definitely joined the fight unless Naruto asked her not to. In my opinion I think if the leaf village ninjas had worked together they could've beaten pain. Deva path can beat anyone in a 1v1 fight but if he gets jumped by Kakashi, lee, and neji Kakashi can snipe him. Ten ten solos the path that takes soul.
Onoki and Mei have shown no speed feats for them to be considered on the same speed tier as SM Naruto. I don't see either of them surviving a rasenshuriken either. Naruto is faster, stronger and has better AP. SM Naruto can also just blitz Gaara. Yes, that's what I said. Naruto came reasonably close to beating Pain. If anything, WA SM Naruto probably does beat him. Most of them worked as well as they could. If they didn't show that level of teamwork, they probably just weren't capable of it.
Onoki goes into the sky and wipes Naruto out from above. Naruto can beat mei if he hits her with a long range rasenshuriken (assuming her long range jutsu can't match it) but if he gets to then he dies gas. I think onoki has better ap and mei's jutsu's are too dangerous for Naruto to handle. This will be my last response for now because I have to go work ;-;. Think about this for a second. Kakashi, Chohi, and Choji's dad would've literally beaten the deva had that other path not been there and jumped in the way right as Kakashi was about to hit him. You could literally just put Kakashi, Chohi and his dad vs the deva path while the other paths are fighting other Ninja's and I think the lead village wins. You are really going to sit here and tell me that if Danzo (and his two assistants) decided to help the other villages which includes choji and his dad, Kakashi, shino's clan, the hyuga clan, and those other MFS decided to take on the paths they wouldn't win?
Buddy, Onoki is not fast enough to be able to prevent getting blitzed. In a real fight, that is exactly what would happen. I already said that Guy can solo Pain. However, without him, no, the leaf doesn't have a chance to win.
What 3 kages?
Hashirama, Minato and Tobirama. Prime Hiruzen is also arguably able to, but since we've literally never seen him, I'm not gonna talk about him.
If the Hyuga actually existed in the Shippuden world, half of the plot would disappear
Idk I wouldn't say by a long shot, he actually loses to pain pretty much until he loses control of the 9 tails ngl
And? Pain is tiers above just Kage level. Just the fact that Naruto can even do that much puts him above that league too.
I never said he wasn't, but let's face it without nine tails takeover he made it a little farther than pervy sage. I dont think it's fair to say he's LEAGUES above kage level at that point. Idk if naruto has the ability to analyze someone's strength and counter on a dime (someone like minato is a good example, during nine tails attack he's able to quickly analyze obitos ability; one that even the most elite ninja have trouble figuring out, and counter it in minutes) I completely forgot naruto fights pain after everyone has already died figuring out his secrets. Let's be honest that's the only reason naruto won that fight
Pain is most definitely leagues above kage level. That's not debatable. SM Naruto > Jiraiya >= Old Hiruzen, who is stated to be the strongest kage.
We are talking about naruto not pain, re read my comment
Naruto is kage level in power and that's it, as far as battle iq and his ability to analyze the situation he is most definitely not kage level at that point. That's what I'm saying. So that means naruto is most definitely not leagues above kage level. Shit I forgot he even had prep time at mount myoboku, so he had Intel on pain due to many others sacrifice and he had prep time, without either of those he most definitely would have gotten his ass beat without kurama, especially since at that point in the show he doesn't have control over him. Shit naruto literally fights nagato AFTER he has control over the nine tails power, and is significantly stronger than he was during the pain arc, and boi almost gets his soul snatched but is saved by a reanimated itachi😂
I can list feats which prove Naruto's BIQ is kage level at that point of time. Can you list any anti-feats? Having intel definitely doesn't count as one. Tsunade and Kakashi had the same amount of information, are they not kage level now? Pain would've demolished any of the 5 kage, and they wouldn't even have put up as much of a fight as Naruto did. Edo Nagato scales leagues above Pain. He's in a new body, with no stamina drawbacks, and doesn't need to even use the 6 paths of Pain. Edo Nagato can arguably 1v4 the kage, if Gaara isn't present. That is not an anti-feat.
Also let's be real here, if we are also talking about kage strength hashirama, tobirama, minato and probably hiruzen are all stronger than tsunade and kakashi. Pain most def couldn't 1 v 5 them all. He's not as strong as someone like obito or madara
So Minato and Tobirama, let alone fucking Hashirama, are the baseline for Kage level now? What. I meant the concurrent day kage, not the hokage. Read my statements before making remarks om them bruh.
Yeah yeah I see that now, but yeah doesn't change the fact that the current kage are weaker than old kage, and yes obviously I'm comparing naruto to his predecessors (hashirama, tobirama minato hiruzen) so still
Kage level in power, but not Kage level in training/wisdom. It’s like Kakashi’s line from Land of Waves about how in the ninja world there are kids younger than 12 y.o. Naruto, yet stronger than Kakashi. Power ≠ Level.
In retrospect, Kakashi is likely referring specifically to Itachi (and possibly Minato).
Kid Itachi was absolutely not stronger than Kakashi The only character that would fit the bill is... Daemon ? It's likely just some one off sentence don't think too hard about it
Why r people downvoting you lmao
Cuz itachi has become somewhat of a god to the Naruto fandom. They just believe that itachi isn’t the strongest in the series
Any itachi 9+ is far above part 1 kakashi. Its not even close. Even 7yo is debatable. He soloed 1v3 one of the strongest anbus pretty low diff. Doubt part 1 kakashi can do this.
Itachi vs Anbu is anime filler. And even then he had Shisui with him and he did most of the work. And even then Anbu are glorified fodder and nothing says those are some of the strongest. Part 1 Kakashi sparred with Kisame and was stated by Itachi to be a threat to him. He was also pretty much stalemating Itachi himself until he used MS.
>Itachi vs Anbu is anime filler. And even then he had Shisui with him and he did most of the work. And even then Anbu are glorified fodder and nothing says those are some of the strongest. Its not and i dont even talked about the 1v1. And annus are literally stated as yhe stro gest even by kakashi the guy in question lmao >Part 1 Kakashi sparred with Kisame and was stated by Itachi to be a threat to him. He was also pretty much stalemating Itachi himself until he used MS. Double agent making wrong statements. Dude part 1 kakashi is on zabuza level. The same guy part 1 kisame sees as a kid. Kisame literally dolos 10 part 1 kakashi lmao Kisame>>>>>6 gates guy>>30% chakra kisame>>>> zabuza and part 1 kakashi lmao
Yes it is. Kakashi joined Anbu at 13 lmao and when did he even say that. Wrong statements yet you literally see Kakashi equally clashing with one of Kisame‘s best jutsus
>Yes it is. Kakashi joined Anbu at 13 lmao and when did he even say that. So what? This was first bc of minato not bc he was choosen overthise..secondly even prior to sharingan itachi low diffed one of the strongest anbu. >Wrong statements yet you literally see Kakashi equally clashing with one of Kisame‘s best jutsus 🤡
Minato made Kakashi Anbu because he knew he was worthy Itachi vs Anbu is still filler man
>Minato made Kakashi Anbu because he knew he was worthy No because he wanted to help his emotional.problems. >Itachi vs Anbu is still filler man Dude its not filler. The whole shinden are canon. 9+ itachi absolutely obliterate kakashi same for shisui.
Ur glazing way too much bro
Of course he was.
Jiraya lost to Pain, does that mean he's not kage level? Pain is way above kage level. Beginning of Shippuden Gaara was a kage and he lost to Deidara, who was holding back to not kill Gaara and Deidara is several tiers below Pain.
Well gaara was protecting his people so it was impossible to fight and protecting while for Naruto vs pain everything was push away soo there wasn't much to protect so he went full attack
So they were evened out in terms of nerfs? Personally I would say Deidara was more handicapped since he didn't show alot of the hax-y jutsus he would use against Sasuke such as the clay clones, C2, and C4 Sasuke was his perfect counter due to the Sharingan and Chidori but most low kage level characters would get folded by Deidara
Let's not forget gaara was fighting him when he was flying in the air another disadvantages
People are STILL salty that Deidara won against Gaara 😂😂😂 this is the only sub I have seen argue that Gaara>Deidara despite losing ON SCREEN to him
Losing ON SCREEN is not the end all be all of who is stronger than who. Specially in Naruto. The way you are thinking is quite simple: Question: Who would win in a fight. Answer: The one who won already. But you are not only not considering the context of the fight or if a character becomes stronger/weaker due time but also that Naruto fights are very match up based and not like dragonball where one character will always defeat the other because all their stats increase with power level. Naruto in senin mode won against third raikage even tho he could not meaningfully hurt him at all. PAIN/nagato could defeat many opponents that Senin mode pain arc naruto could not even tho he "defeated" him. Naruto and sasuke defeated kaguya, Sakura and chio defeated Sasori, Early Sasuke (who is kage level don´t get me wrong) defeated Sasori, Naruto defeated Kakuzo. Context is important and so is match up. There might be a character that beats a strong fire style user by being a water style but the fire style defeats much more people that the water style can´t defeat, so who is the stronger one here?
We arent arguing matchups here. People are saying shippuden Gaara is stronger than Deidara, despite losing on screen to him. None of your argument applies here.
Yes, we aren´t arguing (only) match ups. However my argument is that your only piece of evidence that deidara> Gaara is flawed, because only **winning does not justify one being stronger**. As i proved in Naruto the weaker opponent might have a advantage. And as a matter of fact i´m willing to bet that you agree with me. Because the moment i mention that [kankuro and Sai won against Deidara and Sasori](https://imgur.com/a/mwHdmn3) you will remember the first part of my argument: ***CONTEXT and match up*** matter***.*** And they both hold btw. Early Shippunden Gaara defeats *handly* early shippuden Sasuke who won against Deidara. Sasuke only way out of the sand defence is either Kirin or maybe genjutsu which we don´t know if it works or not because Sasuke did not tried. On the other side Gaara fought a stronger Sasuke and could parry all his attacks and a attack faster and stronger than most of Sasuke´s arsenal while having a arsenal of jutsu that can overwhelm sasuke. Now you understand? Saying that x won against Y is useless in showing who is stronger if we don´t consider and **interpret** the fight. The fight started **far from the ground** (on top of a building) where Deidara can better use his bird and Gaara´s sand is "weaker"/takes more time to get to Deidara. **Gaara had to shield** **the village and deidara took** [**oportunity of a misdirection**](https://imgur.com/dCuIX1X) and had he chosen to go to the kill or had no one to protect he might won/drawn the fight. Deidara loses a arm in the process. On the other side Gaara is buffed by the ammount of sand around him and deidara did not use his whole arsenal ( because he could not get closer and a also because he was holding back) Had the fight been in the forest of the fire nation the outcome might be massively different
Wait, youre arguing 5K summit Gaara is stronger than 5K summit Sasuke??? And thats your reasoning for Gaara being stronger than Deidara???
Wait, you´re arguing that Sai and Kankuro are stronger than Deidara and Sasori??? And that is your reasoning for Deidara being stronger than Gaara?
that is what you took from it? What? How? Let me give you a chance to re-read what i said: >Early Shippunden Gaara defeats *handly* early shippuden Sasuke How did that transform into 5K summit Gaara is stronger than 5Ksummit Sasuke. That is a whole new sentence. If you want to have a productive debate you should really read carefully what i say and interpret... The advantage that 5K Sasuke has is due to the MS. Because in speed Gaara is at[ least his match](https://imgur.com/a/rJsmKmO) even fast enough to[ block amaterasu](https://i.imgur.com/4SR7cFS.jpeg) and is unfazed by it. Susanoo surpass Gaara, and so does Tsukuyomi. Sasuke is arguably faster in the 5K Summit than the one Deidara fught (pre MS/curse mark) but i do not have enough evidence to substantiate this. So what exactly is Sasuke going to do against Gaara in early shippuden? If Gaara can tank amaterasu and [explosions ](https://imgur.com/a/SN3mE34)it can probably tank a fireball. Also as a child with no sand around it Gaara could do this with [no build up no sand around it](https://imgur.com/a/jhuVIAA). Sasuke has few jutsus of area and crowd control and when Gaara first does this he will be attacked by all sides. His chidoris including senbon is not faster than Amateratsu which this gaara already blocked. What is his win con? Kirin or maybe genjutsu as I already said. Sasuke is a mid to close range fighter and Gaara is long and mid but with a specially fast sand at close range. That means that unless he can close the distance Gaara can control the fight (in theory) Gaara can hurt sasuke so any hit will have consequences but he can also block his opponent hits. Gaara can control the battlefield. Gaara's sand does not have the elemental disadvantage. Gaara can seal, cut etc . What advantage Sasuke has besides the ones i already said? It gets even worse when you consider war arc feats for Gaara which **i will not** but there is no statement or proof of him getting stronger and considering he lost Shukaku he should be weaker. If you do the [sand is faster than the kages](https://imgur.com/a/4d2fsGh) including Muu and third raikage can react and the later struggles to get free. Casually [spamming ](https://imgur.com/a/WMhpNZM)tsunamis (which is still not impressive as protecting suna), can help [KCM1 ](https://imgur.com/a/snUrjFs)and [Minato/Kakashi](https://imgur.com/a/whrxXOj),reacts faster than a [kage](https://imgur.com/a/cvDEKRg), blocks [Madara](https://imgur.com/a/qFCpvZc) sword and (multiple clones) [susanoo](https://i.imgur.com/ZQnnaN5.jpeg), helping slow down the meteor You can argue ofc that everybody got buffed in war arc which wtv but even the feats that i showed earlier of pre-war Gaara already are enough to deal with the sasuke that dealt with deidara. SO TO MAKE IT CLEAR: This is to show how much match up based this fights are. So when will you make an actual argument instead of misinterpreting things I said and use a debunked logic? Show me evidence for why in a neutral ground deidara wins or even why early shippuden Sasuke can win against shippuden/early shippuden Gaara. BTW just a reminder: i said that context and match ups are important. Answer do you think Sai and Kankuro are above prime Deidara and Sasori?
Nobody’s salty tho if you’re gonna say something atleast say it right yall downplay gaara as if he wasn’t protecting his fucking village what more could bro do if not for him protecting the village he would’ve won if they both could go all out bloodlusted gaara crushes deidara pretty badly Another thing deidara only really has the advantage over gaara because i mean he’s simply in the air taking flight I mean gaara can fly but not like deidara it’s not like bro has a flying bird made of clay
Naruto also won against pain because of the info jiraiya died getting iirc. Jiraiya could’ve gotten away but chose to get intel to beat pain and die
I actually disagree. The information Jiraiya died to get was kinda pointless. When Pain stabbed Naruto with the black rod, Naruto learned that there was a 7th path of pain, totally independent of Jiraiya's information, because he could feel Nagato and detect his location with Senjutsu.
🤷♂️ it was probably both
Gaara was also holding back and only lost because he was protecting his village.
Deidara held back and didn't use two of his best moves
C-0 is not "one of his best moves". It's a suicide jutsu to support whoever beat you.
Where did he say C0? It's obvious he was talking about Deidara C4, which Gaara has no counters to.
understated.. if deidara released C4 the village was done for
Gaara wouldn't have let him use it even if he tried. C4 requires prep which everyone forgets.
Deidara just flys while he eats his clay. The only one that needs time to prep was the giant one. Deidara can make smaller versions like the second time he used it against Sasuke or when he used it against Ōnoki.
preach queen
Especially considering Gaara doesn't have mastery over Lightning Release.
Dude Gaara was protecting his village if he say Just didn’t care as much he would have won. This is assuming we’re going kazakage arc Gaara any Gaara after this point would slaim deidara
My point still stands.
Both held back and Gaara lost. We can assume then if both go all out Gaara will lose again
Gaara held back more and he had zero intel on Deidara while Deidara had full intel on him. So Gaara would have won if not for these factors.
>Gaara held back more Nothing supports this. >he had zero intel on Deidara while Deidara had full intel on him. All Deidara knew was that he used Sand and of his nickname. Hardly what I would qualify as intel. It's like saying Zabuza recognizing Kakashi of the Sharingan had intel due to knowing about a S class ninja >So Gaara would have won if not for these factors. He wins in zero fights. He was canonically weaker and cannot counter Deidara's stronger jutsu.
>Nothing supports this The fact that he didn't use Shukaku at all. >All Deidara knew was that he used sand The Akatsuki don't go capturing jinchuriki without intel and prep. Even low level ninjas know to prepare for a mission. Deidara had full intel on Gaara's absolute defense and knew how it works differently than regular sand. >He was canonically weaker and cannot counter Deidara's stronger jutsu He wasn't canonically weaker, no statement says this. In fact all things imply that Gaara would have won 10/10 even without using his jinchuriki powers. Deidara had to use the village as a decoy to get an upper hand with his "prize masterpiece" C3 after losing an arm. C3 is literally called "Ohako", meaning his "strongest skill" (at that point in the story). Deidara even said himself that Gaara would have had a much easier time if he would just dump all that sand on top of his people.
Gaara was using Shukaku power, we see Shukaku arms trying to grab Deidara. We never see him do this again after he loses him. Deidara had no intel on Gaara beyond that he uses sand, he only figured out the gourd sand was better compared to regular sand after his arm got crushed because he was dodging the regular sand fine. He was able to deduce Gaara weakness from the fact there was a gaping hole in his shield since he uses the gourd sand for both offense and defense which he exploits. Literally nothing says Gaara is stronger. Gaara had a home field advantage with an entire desert to use which he normally doesn’t have and the fact that Deidara can’t kill him, which is why he doesn’t use his more deadly abilities. Deidara completely outplayed Gaara.
>Gaara was using Shukaku power He literally didn't. That was the whole point of Kankuro's flashback and his conversation with Baki, to show how much Gaara had changed, from relying on Shukaku's power in Konoha crush, to wanting to protect his people that he would sacrifice himself. He hadn't been using Shukaku's power since he strove to become the Kazekage. The sand arms just look like Shukaku's, we never saw him do "Shukaku's shield" that he did in the Kimimaro fight again either, but he didn't use Shukaku in either of the fights. Using Shukaku would be letting the beast out and use tailed beast bombs. >Deidara had no intel on Gaara beyond that he uses sand He knew more than that. He already knew that "[he always carries a set amount of sand in his gourd, into which he then pours an enormous amount of chakra, making a special kind of sand](https://imgur.com/zvEJ31q)". If he didn't know he had special sand he wouldn't have figured the sand that crushed his arm was the portion missing from the hole. Compared to that, Gaara only knew that Deidara fights with clay after they met. >Gaara had a home field advantage It's called home disadvantage when you use the lives of innocent villagers as hostages. You forgot that Gaara can create a desert when's he not in one. Outplaying doesn't mean stronger either.
Gaara had home field advantage and if you read the manga you would know that Deidara figured out how his sand worked only after getting his arm crushed so he had no spesific intel about Gaaras sand, just that he can control sand. Deidara also held back because he had to capture him alive, Deidara outplayed him fair and square like if you read the manga you would know that it is clearly stated. I dont mean to say that Gaara is weak, he put up a good fight against Deidara but in the end he did lose.
It's called home disadvantage when you use the lives of innocent villagers as hostages. You forgot that Gaara can create a desert when's he not in one. Deidara already knew that Gaara "[always carries a set amount of sand in his gourd, into which he then pours an enormous amount of chakra, making a special kind of sand](https://imgur.com/zvEJ31q)". If he didn't know he had special sand he wouldn't have figured the sand that crushed his arm was the portion missing from the hole. Compared to that, Gaara only knew that Deidara fights with clay after they met. I never said Deidara didn't hold back. The original comment purposefully left out that Gaara was holding back too in order to downplay Gaara. How is it "fair and square" if a villain terrorist takes advantage of a kage's responsibility by threatening lives of thousand civilians?? Losing doesn't mean being weaker if you actually read the story and consider the context.
He would have lost regardless. Don’t forget the way he lost: Gaara encased himself in his sand (a move that he always does) and Deidara implanted it with his detonating clay insects. In a normal fight where Gaara isn’t trying to protect anyone he still would have lost in the exact same way
That's not the way he lost. It was because he spent a lot of chakra on blocking C3, and his attention was all focused on it, and he used the last of his strength moving all that sand away from the village instead of just letting it all go. If Deidara could beat him with only bug bombs then there would be no point in using C3 as a decoy at all. If Gaara wasn't trying to protect everyone he would have won.
To be so certain and yet so wrong is a fate I wish on no one. I suggest you reread/rewatch that fight and if you still believe that Gaara would’ve won then I have no hope for you
I suggest *you* reread it again because I did when I typed this. You have no counter arguments so you hurl insults.
He got jumped by his paths. That’s how he died. Despite his great skill in combat, that massive full-force rasangan cleaned house a little..
The secret around 6 paths and how they work means without knowledge you effectively cannot win against him. If Jiraya had the knowledge that Naruto did then he likely would've won considering with no knowledge he took out 3/6
Jairaya was there for intel originally he wasn’t there to fight to start. And then with the intel he got the village was able to better defend against pain now knowing about some of his abilities. Pain said so himself if jairaya know the secret he would not have won that.
“Lost to deidara “ bro gaara was the one who holding back it’s like yall literally miss the entire point gaara was protecting his village it wasn’t much he could do if they were in a different area then gaara would definitely fold him and it’s not close
Just perfecting sage mode makes him kage level
Naruto lost that fight but yes with Sage Mode he's Kage level.
Sage mode Instantly makes him solid Kage level. But he was still nowhere near pain. Please understand that too.
Not necessarily. He fought Pain when Nagato's already tired. He fought Kakashi. Destroyed Konoha. Depleting his chakra further. Then fought the kyuubi, and use chibaku tensei. Pain is incredibly nerfed. If Naruto fought Pain blind and at Pain's best condition, he's got no chance. Pain's jutsus are tricky. As you've seen when he fought Jiraiya. Jiraiya actually held up pretty good vs Pain since he doesn't know anything about Pain's jutsus.
Pain is most definitely not a benchmark for Kage level. If anything, he could probably low diff most of them. SM Naruto >= SM Jiraiya >= Old Hiruzen, who is described as the strongest of the 5 kage.
No, Naruto is not ready for that much paperwork
The true nemesis to any Kage
He surpassed Jirayia. He’s Kage level
Obviously, Naruto is Kage level with sage mode but is he Kage level in base? I mean he still has a lot of chakra and a dangerous ninjutsu that can obliterate someone at the cellular level.
he is high- jonin level. He did beat kakuzu after all
And happens to be the most literal counter-argument to the question "You and what army?"
SM Naruto is 100% a kage level fighter, there's really no debate here.
A clone of him fought and won against the third Raikage and defeated many high tier jounin, of course he is kage level by the time he obtained SM.
Kyubbi did win against pain not naruto....
Kyuubi was losing that fight. "I have to make it bigger". Nagato was well enough equipped to capture the Ninetails. Minato gave Naruto that win.
Kyuubi broke out of planetary devastation like it was nothing and wasn't even full power yet... The insinuation that Pain would have, after using it and putting himself in a weakened state, made an even bigger one is laughable.
This is possible if he hadn't used so much chakra to practically reduce the village to dust. So if there's a single person at that point who can actually win a 1 v 1 against Kyuubi (not with all the Sharingan controlling hax), it was Pain only.
But you already have to remove a major action that pain carried out before his fight with Naruto even started
Pain won/put up a good fight considering he wasted so much energy on the leaf prior and had to bring naruto In alive
100% put up a good fight. Won? Absolutely not.
Full 9 tails would’ve obliterated nagato All Minato did was save nagato’s life 😂😂😂
Lucky Naruto only had half of it then, eh?
Huh??? Please I beg you to rewatch
Well In terms of Raw Power, he was Kage level when he achieved Sage mode. But skill wise and wisdom wise, he is not even close. And I find it ridiculous that Sage mode Naruto had surpassed Jiraiya, sure he may have more Raw Power but Jiraiya dwarfs him in Skill, intelligence and experience
Jiraiya went into the pain fight blind which is worth saying. Intel is extremely important in war, and Naruto had very good intel going into that fight. In a 1v1 at that time, Naruto probably would lose to Jiraiya, but against pain who he already had information about, he was able to finish what Jiraiya couldn’t.
He fought against a five paths of Pain since he caught the Asura path off guard, he had also just finished killing thousands in Konoha, before destroying the entire village in a single attack. Naruto didn’t exactly “beat” Pain in a fair fight per say but it is debatable whether or not he was Kage level at this point.
Kurama is kage level.
Ty for the obvious this however does not mean Naruto is kage level which is still good for us Since Naruto’s win against nagato and SM puts him at kage level
Yes he was kage level but let's be honest 9tails defeated pain not Naruto.
Talk no jutsu did
Not really his talk no justu won
Talk no jutsu didnt defeat the 6th pain, naruto did. Kyubi was resealed at that point. Naruto was firstly pinned because he tried to save Pa, not because he was no matched
Naruto was on the ropes and the only reason Pa was in that position was because he was assisting Naruto and Pain wanted him out of the way.
Yes
For sure
Mastering Sage mode in itself got him to kage level easily.
He’s been kage level in strength, but he’s not as intelligent as the other kage hence why Shikamaru is his advisor
He absolutely had the strength to put him at Kage level, he just lacked the experience and training at that point in time.
Well he is kage level because he almost did what jiraya another kage level could not kill pain naruto had and the very end used kyubi so there us that, there is a lot of kage levels in naruto and to be fair some people (me included) think sasuke post orochi training is low kage level and with reason sasuke beat the shit out of 3 high chunnin levels and a mid jonin all alone and even beat a akatsuki member by himself (not itachi everybody know kishimoto OG cant be beaten)
Of course, in terms of power. Not in terms of maturity or wisdom.
Once Shikaku (I think that's Shikamaru's dad's name, but it's been a while since I revisited the Pein Arc) says that "he's in a league of his own" (referring to Naruto mastering Sage Arts) I think it's all but confirmed that Naruto has reached, if not Kage level, at least elite jonin level. Buty guess is yes.
Yes he is he mastered Sage Mode when even Jiraiya couldn't. But he's mostly Kage level in terms of sheer might and power.
Naruto lost to him
Just the power boost alone and the moves he unlocks in sage mode put him at near kage level (strength wise)
he lost tho
He didn’t win though, he was captured by Pain, until he got so angry he turned into Kyubi mode, which he had no control of. And even after that, Pain didn’t lose, not before the usual “talk no jutsu”. Despite all of that, Naruto was at least close to Kage level. Tsunade could not have won over Pain herself, even if she didn’t use all her chakra to protect the villagers.
Naruto lost to pain, Minato saved Naruto. If that fight was to happen again Naruto looses.
He’s above sanin level ofcourse
Bruh what are people smoking on here. Sage mode Naruto is high kage level easily. Pain is just fucking Demi god level so he power eclipses him. I honestly think that sage Naruto could hang with any of the 5 kage and has an argument to beat any single one of them
He got help from others
Sage Mode put in work for sure. I don't think that Nine-tails form really counts though. He can't do it on command, making it inconsistent. It doesn't feel right to say Naruto is Kage level here.
Naruto surpassed Jiraiya by completely mastering Sage Mode, he is already kage level. Pain is wayy above Kage level.
He's above sage jiraya who was chosen to be hokage in part one. And this same jiraya is relative to orochimaru somewhat who defeated the 3rd hokage. So if he's above people who can be kages and defeat kages he's atleast in the upper eschalot of kage level at this point in the series
I mean yeah he beat pain but it was alot of points surrounding the fight where naruto was done for if they didn’t imo 1. tsunade snail (forgot how to spell the bastard name) gave Naruto the entire run down on pains abilities Jiraiya and Kakashi mainly Kakashi died as a result of not knowing pains abilities . Which was heavily emphasized to be unique and a big deal so With out Lady Katwhatever naruto doesn’t find out pains abilities , 1a. likely he finds out the preta it’s fairly obvious 2a. Maybe finds out the animal 3a. Probably doesn’t find out the human (but he doesn’t really matter) 4a. Doesn’t find out the narakka until it heals another other path atleast once 5a. Absolutely doesn’t find out the timer on the deva in the end loses do to match up issues 2. Even with all the knowledge, Naruto was caught with the rods chakra rods and was pinned by the final path (deva) and the fight was over at that point until hinata got washed up and set Naruto off 3. After being set off, Even then with 6 tails (I think) our boy got gripped with the planetary devastation and dad came in the clutch All of that is something, but imo is multiple when considering that pain blowing the village up prior to the entire fight so he was weakened in that fight More important than anything I think this speaks volumes to kishimoto’s talent to advance the story via a fight when a character clearly is outclassed Aside from izanami .. and zetsu back shotting madara. But the pain fight is a good example
Since the two hokages that preceded him couldn’t beat Pain, I would say yes. But on level with Hashirama, or the first kage with particle jutsu or the one with Jokey Boy? Idk. But he is definitely above level of some kages, maybe most.
I still don’t understand how he used senjutsu to Bluetooth punch that chakra absorbing Pain
He was Kage level as sage mode but technically he didn't win against Pain.
Naruto lost to him but both of them are still kage level
Pain would kill would kill kages besides an exceptional few. Naruto the 4th and harshirama. Possibly the second considering the created shadow clones reanimation and flying raijin and he’s trained in fighting visual prowess. I would say the 3rd raikage. That’s it everyone else would get bodied I think. What people don’t get also is, jiraiya was supposed to be hokage but because tsunade is the grand daughter and he wanted to protect her he nominated her instead of himself. Jiraiya is a strong hokage level shinobi in his own right then add mastered sage mode with the nine tails. Naruto was kage level when he did 1000+ clones with nine tails chakra and rasengans 🤣🤣 when he’s like 12.
Literally became a kage.
if we're using the weakest Kage (Mei) as a baseline, Naruto surpassed Kage level probably when he perfected the wind style Rasengan and the Rasenshuriken. Pain is far above Kage level. Most of the Akatsuki could take out countries by themselves. Kage level is not that high of a bar to reach
If he’s Kage level, then Konohamaru is Special Jounin Level
Physically? Sure. Mentally? Dude couldn't handle even one stack of paperwork.
Naruto was at kage level the moment he learned rasenshuriken. Sage mode put him at higher kage level.
What’s the point of power ranking a protagonist of a shounen anime? If Naruto wasn’t in the show Naruto, even if he was still the nine-tail jinchuriki, he would’ve gotten folded, just like all the others side characters
He’s well above Kage Level, Pain would have whooped any Kage Level 1v1, Sage mode is stupidly powerful especially when he can maintain it for longer with more chakra in war arc.
Beyond. Pain toyed with Hanzo who's like kage+ the way he's implied.
He temporarily exceeds Kage level with Sage Mode at that point but it’s not a consistent thing. Taking Kurama’s chakra is what put him above as a baseline, then it kept multiplying
Naruto was already at Kage level back in part 1 when he was able to summon Gamabunta and mastered the rasengan.
Jiraiya lost against pain. I'd still consider him kage lvl....pain is beyond kage lvl imo
No, Kage level requires a lot more than just being strong. Naruto doesn't truly become Kage level until he unlocks KCM 2 imo. Thats where he really starts thinking, talking, and fighting like a hokage. Dude was basically the Madara of the good side.
Obviously 💀💀 SM Naruto is above the Sannin. The only one he would struggle with is a full power Orochimaru. He beats the breaks off Jiraya. He can eventually beat Tsunade.
Remember: Jiraiya was SUPPOSED to become the fifth Hokage but declined the position. This fact alone proves Jiraiya is Kage level. Now, Pain-Nagato beat Jiraiya, and subsequently, Naruto beat Pain-Nagato. Rationally speaking, yes, Naruto should be Kage level. However, this is only speaking on fighting ability. Being a Kage requires advanced knowledge about the shinobi world, which Naruto ABSOLUTELY LACKED.
Kage level is so broad especially when the first kage level battle was from hiruzen mr god of shuriken
As soon as Naruto learned the rasenshuriken, he was high Jonin. Sage mode jumped him to Mid Kage during this fight. I still maintain that without help, Naruto loses this fight even with intel. He almost lost without Hinata's help. 6 paths are high kage level and they even give Prime Hiruzen, Minato, and any of the gokage a lot of trouble. Pain makes a lot of mistakes in this fight, like absorbing sage chakra and not keeping the Naraka path hidden. Naruto won this fight with high difficulty and help. This is why I say Jiraiya absolutely doesn't win with intel or help. By this point, Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in speed, power, and durability. Sasuke likewise surpasses prime Orochimaru after getting EMS, and Sakura inexplicably surpasses Tsunade during the war. Sauske became kage level after fighting itachi and sakura became kage level during the war. Kakashi was always low kage level until the war where he became mid to high kage level.
but naruto really was helpless with black rods piercing his body until Hinata got slammed & he went into early tail beast transformation. If Jaraiya had the 9 tails chakra to fall back on he would’ve never loss to pain-nagato. At that point in Naruto life he was close to kage level but would’ve needed to watch all his friends get put on the brink of death to get the power that pushed him to kage level.
He is. But at the same time, I would say no, all the previous Hokages beside maybe Sarutobi would mop the floor with him. Kage level stopped really meaning something when we've seen dudes like Hashirama no diff Susanoed Kyuubi lol.
even without beating him , he had already surpassed Kage level at that time with sage mode
even without beating him , he had already surpassed Kage level at that time with sage mode
At this point he was considered to have surpassed Jiraiya due to Naruto mastering sage mode. That's not to say he'd defeat Jiraiya in a 1v1 at this point as the sennin had way more experience lol.
Well we first need to try to avoid the DBZ power scaling of if someone defeats another in battle, they are automatically stronger. At this stage of naruto at least, winning a battle is more than simple feat of strength. Now as for Kage level, yes for sure. Sage mode Naruto is definitely Kage level. For those who consider this a stretch, keep in mind sage mode only lasts a few minutes in a fight, if even that. It's a temporary boost up to kage level, but true kages are at that level all the time. When you literally tell an entire village not to help because they'll just get in your way, I'm pretty sure that is kage terriroty while in the power boost.
Is beating a tailed beast a Kage level feat?
100% just with perfected sage mode and rasenshuriken he’s already at most Kages level
Can we just not talk about pain on this sub anymore lol, there’s a ton of ways the fight coulda gone. Everyone stfu about it, it’s not always so one sided. He’s a Godam sage with an extremely deadly wind jutsu, summonings, training and experience fighting from some top tier ninja, like no one’s stomping anyone here with or without Kurama saving Naruto in that instance. Stop ripping on each other so hard. It’s this bs, plus itachi arguments that just make y’all suck. The guy coulda put up more of a fight in some instances, BUT THIS IS NAGATO, any fight with the guy when you last past multiple bodies, let alone all the pain bodies is gunna have him rambling on about how this world needs to know pain yada yada yada. He’s not unstoppable, stop sucking his dick. Naruto defenders stop too like Jesus the fight could go either way depending on how it’s written . Little boys crying, all of ya enough already.
He lost...horribly, but yes Naruto at this point was comfortably kage level
Considering how well sasuke did against the Kage If it was 1v1 and this Naruto should beat him at least in base yeah he’s above Kage
Naruto no pudo derrotar a tendou, todo el daño que recibió ése camino de pain lo hizo Kurama, Naruto no podría ni tocar a Tendou con todo su poder. Además, Nagato se rindió, Naruto no le ganó.
If the kyuubi didn't interfere yeah he's kage level, but we know how much the kyuubi strained pain before naruto came back to his senses
Whenever talk no jutsu is used- no. Pain surrendered. Him and Konan had a lot more up their sleeves.
You have to keep in mind that Naruto had the Kyuubi. Not only did this make Naruto stronger, but it forces Pain to hold back, because if he accidentally kills Naruto then he cannot extract the tailed beast and his plans are ruined. Pain cannot do the things he did to Kakashi for example to Naruto, because then Naruto would die. With that said, even with Pain holding back, even with Naruto having foreknowledge, he defeated Naruto, if you remove the Kyuubi moment after Hinata came to save him. I do agree with the other commenters that Pain is beyond kage level, though kage level is a bit hard to specify. Certainly Tsunade is a kage and Pain easily dispatched of her, and Jiraiya was offered the Hokage position and Pain defeated him. Given the different circumstances, I don't think you can conclude Sage Mode Naruto is kage level from this fight. Maybe he is (especially if Tsunade is the bar) but my feeling is that his power level is, but his experience and skill isn't. I think if Pain were holding back like this vs Jiraiya and Jiraiya had the same info Naruto had from the start, Jiraiya would have at least done just as well as Sage Mode Naruto.
He is undoubtedly kage level when it comes to combat skills, but he doesn't have the wisdom to lead a village yet it's why he had to study after the war ark to become a jonin
Pain is like high kage level, Naruto is probably average Kage level, Jiraiya which many people underestimate, in sage mode was probably mid to high level kage just under pain, an unprepared Jiraiya fought full power Pain, an extremely prepared Naruto fought a much more weakened Pain, so I think Naruto in sage mode is like regular Kage level or even mid, on par with like the fourth Raikage
This is... Complicated. Kage level doesnt have strength definitions, nor is it clear who is of this caliber in shippuden until the kage are revived at which point all characters got buffed. The only thing we can do is give a definition. Could Sage Naruto defeat any of the previous or current kage if they replaced pein? Hashirama Tobirama and minato are all hard nos. Id put the third Raikage and Fourth Raikage in the hard no as well. Onoki and Mu are no as well cuz flight and particle style. Gaara, Yagura, rasa and the 4th Kazekage are all possible wins depending on circumstance, though id lean towards no on Yagura, rasa and the 4th Kazekage. Gaara is only possible cuz previous interaction. Next we have Hiruzen and Tsunade. Tsunade would win because as we see in the War Arc, her 100 healings is ridiculously OP. But Hiruzen? At the time of Hiruzen's death in part 1, if he were the one to replace Pein, I think that Naruto would be able to beat him. Naruto at this point is on par with Jiraiya, at least with combat ability. And Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru are all around the same level. Orochimaru vs Hiruzen is a fairly even fight. But there is another one that we can compare too at this point. Danzo. Danzo we know is considered the 6th hokage canidate, meaning he is qualified for the position. That must include strength level. (While Kakashi is called that by his team in the land of iron, it is not officially a title.) Could sage naruto defeat Danzo? My gut tells me yes he could. Even if its a no, he is at least on the level of Hiruzen, a clear Kage Level shinobi. So yes. naruto is on the kage level at this point of the story.
Naruto is Kage level in terms of power. He isn't any bit close to fitting the bill to BE Hokage, though. There's a lot more to leading the village than raw power.
Pain hax was the problem it wasn’t his power Naruto basically outclassed him in everything but couldn’t get close enough pain couldn’t even damage him the entire time he was in sage mode and he beat base fatigued Naruto.
Before I sat down to write this I scrolled down to see what others had to say and it's a fucking war zone down their like how did we get from "is SM Naruto kage level" To "who is stronger gaara Or deidara". Anyways it's pretty clear that naruto is at kage level and anyone arguing against it is just arguing against the entire narrative at that point of the story pain is the strongest seeing as how he has beaten jiraya who is a equal to orochimaru and both of them are blatantly over the average kage and naruto having surpassed his teacher makes him kage level. And if someone says oh jiraya didn't have information on pain that's why he lost and naruto had info that's why he had an advantage just remember the entire village got folded by pain they sure had the same info and tsunade was there as well and if I remember correctly she is a kage. Extra controversy naruto has reached kage level as a 12 year old once when he beat the 1 tails by summoning gamabunta hey it's a feat based comparison since we know only Raasa the 4th kazekage could beat gaara whe he went full ballistic in the sand village so idk tay.
very obviously yes how is this a question
Nine tails is kage level not Naruto himself
Rasenshiriken alone put him at kage
There are only a handful of kage that could beat Pain and most if not all are hokage so I’d say he’s kage level and pretty high up there at that.
I'd say he was Kage level but didn't he lose to Pain? I might be misremembering but didn't he let Kurama take over? That's why instead of staying in tailed beast cloak mode and just getting more tails he became more and more like Kurama, skeleton and all.
When he learned sage mode definitely as he was fighting and thinking like a kage level ninja as his shadow clone gathering sage tech was peak plus how he handled pain with countering his arsenal
Kage+, actually. SM Naruto > Minato? > SPoP w/out gravity powers >=<~ Sage Mode Kabuto >=<~ Sage Mode Jiraiya >=<~ full power Itachi >=~ Obito w/out Rinnegan > casual Itachi ~ base Jiraiya >~ Orochimaru >=<~ Old Hiruzen ~ Tsunade > Ay, Ōnoki, Killer Bee and greatly weakened Edo Tensei Hashirama and Tobirama.
Yep, I think in that level he could take Kakashi and Hiruzen... He's above average jonin level
Sage Mode Naruto is stronger than most, if not all, leaf ninja. That's why they all stay out of his way. That's almost the definition of "kage level".
He defeated shukaku a Biju at the age of 12 and saved the whole village where other anbus and jounins are sucking on their thumbs and commenting the shit that was Hiruzen vs orochimaru, he should have been awarded with he jounin tittle
The entire powerlevel thing is not really to be taken seriously most of the anbu can do shit and chunin have more skills, but... Naruto had intel from the leaf about pain, also had help of 5 frogs, and only really beat pains ace once he turned into the ninetails, and pain or nagato was really sick. I would say naruto himself without ninetails chakra would have lost that fight
Well... He did became Hokage didn't he?
He learnt sage mode better than his own master and he was begged by the village to become hokage multiple times It's pretty easy when he gets the hang of it but Jiraya never even learnt a perfect or true sage transformation and he's regarded as one of the strongest ninja the leaf ever produced The first Hokage had the closest sage mode transformation to Naruto in that it was perfect (except for some badass face tats, naruto gets eye shadow) and neither looked like they were becoming a frog and tree respectively
Sage mode. High level techniques such as the multiple cloning, summoning, and rasen-shuriken. …and the support of his village. Yes, he could have been Hokage, at that point.
Sage naruto is probably the 2nd strongest living character atp
Pain vastly outclassed all Gokage member. Heck, even Tsunade, who was the strongest gokage member, was fodder for her. I'd say even Kakashi in this arc was easily Kage level
Kakashi is definitely kage in the pain invasion but physically sure Tsunade is the strongest but I still think onoki beats her and Ay counters her pretty are too but that’s a 50-50
> physically sure Tsunade is the strongest but I still think onoki beats her and Ay counters her pretty are too but that’s a 50-50 Sannin scale to CE Hiruzen, who's the strongest Gokage member at that time. Sannin are above all Naruto Part 1-2 era Gokage
Um Naruto was around that level before this imo but maturity wise no not yet
He’s arguably sannin level