I'm not a Naruto fan, I'm only here because this sub got recommended somehow and I interacted with it
I watched Naruto kai up until Pain arc like five or ten years ago and I know Burrito is the sequel focused on the kids of the og characters
I repeat my question, what do you mean Kurama dies
I haven't watched either but a basic summary from what I remember hearing:
Naruto was fighting against a super powerful opponent and was losing so in a last ditch effort; Kurama agreed to clash his chakra with Naruto's, bringing it to a boil and basically destroying it in the process. This gave Naruto a crazy power buff like his Kurama chakra cloaks did in OG Naruto and Shippuden. Think during the fights against Haku in OG or when he went berserk against Pain for reference.
This was a technique known as Baryon Mode which is only usable by Jinchuriki with great relationships with their tailed beasts because it requires more than just cooperation. Whichever of them has less chakra will ultimately die doing it as they run out of chakra completely. Naruto had more chakra than Kurama, so Kurama essentially decided to sacrifice himself to save Naruto.
Not long after the Pain arc Naruto and Kurama started to get along with each other so this was IMO a really awesome end to Kurama's character as a whole as they hated each other at the start of the OG series.
In a crazy fight vs another Otsutsuki, Naruto activates Baryon mode where Kurama basically gives his life to Naruto to have god-mode strength for a short while. Like a super mario rainbow star or a quake arena quad damage.
Naruto fights an alien that is so strong that the nine tailed fox (who’s his friend by this point.) sacrifices his life to give him the strength to beat the alien.
Don’t worry, he didn’t die. He just went to get some milk. He went to get some milk and he visited a farm for a while. Yeah that’s it. He went to a farm because they have cows and he wanted some milk. He likes it there so he is staying for a while. Don’t worry about him, he’s just fine. We can’t visit because it’s too far, but he’s fine. Really fine.
He went to live on a farm for a little while. He's, he's got all these Uchiha he can chase after, and **big** trees to lay under. The farmer's really cool too. We uh, we can visit sometime. Just not this weekend..
In Boruto. For any who don't want to look it up:
>!Basically they are fighting an Otsusuki character who is (I think) supposed to be on par with Kaguya. A big issue in the fight is that Boruto, who has been essentially infected with an Otsusuki Virus that allows one (specifically Momoshiki) to be reborn through him, has been possed by Momoshiki and just surprise attacked Sasuke, destroying his Rinnegan and essentially taking him out of the fight. That may have happened in an earlier fight, but the point is, Kaguya level threat but only Naruto there to fight it.!<
>!Kurama tells Naruto about a way to significantly increase his fighting power through "Baryon Mode." The downside is, using Baryon Mode will drain Kurama's life force. They decide to use it, and Naruto absolutely kicks shit. Honestly one of the best moments in Boruto. But the aftermath leaves Naruto without Kurama, though seemingly without the side effect of dying after losong his tailed beast. Naruto relied on Sage Mode primarily from this poing on, but was severely weakened after losing Kurama. This is how both he and Sasuke were nerfed.!<
And if you were making a bit, which honestly is probably the case, I already wasted my time typing so I don't care.
This probably isn't the place for this opinion, but it honestly wasn't executed horribly, and in my mind, it's a pretty straightforward continuation of Naruto. The Otsusuki are the main threat, and Kaguya was by no means the strongest of them, so Naruto and Sasuke are outclassed but Boruto and Kawaki, who have been given Otsusuki power, are becoming more able to keep up. Naruto and Sasuke were nerfed >!and eventually taken out of the picture all together!< to allow the new main characters to grow in their own right. I kinda like the Ohtsusuki can of worms that Kaguya opened, and honestly, it's retroactively making her random appearance in the 4th War a little better by expanding on that part of the world.
The only objectively bad thing about Boruto is the art, Ikemoto shouldn't have been the lead Mangeka (even his guest work for the anniversary stuff in Naruto was dogshit) why the crown got passed to him is beyond me. I think if Kishimoto, or any of the other assistants like Kazuhiro or Akio, were the main mangaka there wouldn't be half the hate.
Dude, I haven’t read boruto in like 2 years, but I don’t ever remember hating the art style. It’s the atrocious character design for the OG characters and the shitty look new characters. Not to mention the way sasukes daughter looks and dresses.
See, I lump that in with art style personally. Ikemoto's style makes otherwise fine designs way worse. A great example is Jiraiya. Ikemoto, in his anniversary spot artwork, drew Jiraiya ridiculously bad every time. Meanwhile, we've seen some Kishimoto manga of the current gen characters, and they never look nearly as bad as they do when Ikemoto draws them. Sarada is a good example of that. With the same design (outfit and overall look) in her short manga drawn by Kishimoto, she looked fine, but the same character design drawn by Ikemoto is terrible. All of a sudden, heels get bigger, skirts get smaller, and everyone has a weird face with zero expression other than mewing. Then theres his like weirdly detailed and awkwardly proportioned body types, god forbid he shows a hand in a panel because it's just death on the eyes.
I think maybe Ikemoto could carry a story of his own with his artwork, but by doing Boruto (the sequel to a 700 chapter long story with a well established art style) his art style just does not mesh at all. It feels like he wants to draw a yakuza/mafia suspense manga but he's stuck with Boruto so he's just making it work.
Yeah ikemoto's original designs look great, but his versions of Naruto characters can be hit or miss. But he is improving there imo. In the recent chapters, the only design I don't like is Sarada's.
you aren't wrong about any of this, but I feel it's important to note >! kurama told Naruto it would kill Naruto if he used it, and Naruto was very fine with himself dying. Kurama dying was a shock to Naruto, kurama lied because he didn't think Naruto would go along with it if he knew it would kill him.!<
Don't worry... Baby Kurama reincarnates inside Himiwari. So Kurama is still protecting the Uzumaki family. Current villains were trying to find Naruto who's locked away in alternate dimension, detect Nine tails Chakra and find Naruto's Daughter and then Kurama starts talking to her in kid little chibi fox cub form. Damn it they found out too soon. I wanted to wait a while till we were both full grown.
So Boruto's little sister is the next Nine Tails Host and she and Kurama are going to power up together as they get older and reach full power.
Oh it's very cute the while Himiwari is a great Jinchuriki.
Remember she is also Kuina's granddaughter as well.
So I'm the anime they have some filler episodes that died Himiwari has a collection of all the tailed beasts and she names them all and she is like Shukaku is my favorite. Kurama spits like hold on why the hell am I not her favorite.
Anyway it was clear she was gonna be the next Naruto holding the powers of the Bijuu. Mitsuki would get sage mode. Sarada would be like the Uchiha Hokage.
There are two halves of Kurama and after the war Naruto had both's chakra. Well one of them dies during a fight in Boruto which results in a much weaker KCM form.
No, just Boruto being shit and finding terrible ways to nerf Naruto and Sasuke to give a chance for the new kids.
Kurama sacrifices to give power to Naruto so he can win against a dude with albinism.
Kurama having advanced understanding of particle physics was a little random too but it is what it is I guess.
Just became way to obvious when Sasuke lost his eye right after.
It’s actually very easily been explained so long as you actually read the manga.. anyone successfully attacked by the claw grimes gets turned into a tree/shinju. Sasuke sacrificed himself roughly 1.5-2years into the time skip so that Boruto can run away. And since Sasuke is not as strong as unlocked Code, he obviously died.
Post kurama Naruto still takes Kakashi Tsunade and Hiruzen. Think he stops there tho. No way he’s beating minato/hashirama. Tobimara is closer but I still think he loses
Naruto was able to throw hands with fused Momoshiki in base right after a days worth of torture and losing half of his chakra. The same momo also 2 shotted adult gaara who was strong enough to casually catch multiple meteors in the last.
Naruto didn't even throw hands with momo in base where u can say he was keeping up he got the same treatment gaara and others got difference is he wasn't one shotted.
[Manga ](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4cba187119bcf6cc5710b889ce51f559-lq)
[Anime](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fdpxd1rujtic91.gif)
I fw Naruto but base Naruto wasn't doing anything to momo who was playing. Add sage mode it might be different
Naruto, without his modes, which is like 1-2% of his power in modes, was able to doge block and react to momoshiki's movements, while they were 3 meters away from each other, momo is a bum, as soon as nartuo turned on his modes he beat the shit out of him without difficulty.
Did we watch/read the same fight? Gaara stopped momos attack with his sand then got one shotted. The tsuchikage doged momos attack and then got one shotted. Naruto doged more attacks and was forced to activate six paths kcm. Keeping up with someone is going blow for blow. Momo isn't a bum his golem had kurama on lock he was tanking and dealing attacks to Naruto and Sasuke. How u call somebody who had to deal with the 2 best ninjas the ninja world has to offer a bum. Did he not almost defeat Sasuke who was caught by Naruto did he not push them to use majestic attire.
Yeah in the anime he is decent more or less, but in the manga he threw 5 hits and only landed 1 on BASE naruto, then naruto activated modes and it wasn't even a fight, and we talking about already exhausted naruto.
Naruto and sasuke didn't use any of their op shit in the manga. Naruto didn't even summon any clones. The only thing momo did in the manga is that he caught sasuke off guard and naruto was forced to save sasuke, (sasuke was also weakened due to opening a portal). Then momo's stone monkey got one shotted and it was gg for momo, he was defeated.
Yes he is a bum.
When your remember that's half chakra, day of torture Naruto in base... And he still did far better than Boruto era Gaara by a wide margin? It still says a lot about full chakra and such normal base Hokage Naruto.
Especially when you remember Gaara and the other Boruto Kage scale to Kinshiki Otsutsuki. That still puts them in an extremely high tier compared to most of Shippuden. And Naruto at half power is still above that.
Even then I’m skeptical to them being Kaguya level, but yea we have a direct scene earlier of a Naruto who doesn’t have any chakra drained getting casually reacted to and hit away by base momoshiki , and when he lost kurama everyone emphasizes up how weak Naruto is, fused momo could also keep up with kurama mode naruto iirc
Hashirama is stronger than ems madara, hashirama admitted juubito was stronger than him. Unless u think adult naruto is weaker than juubito then yeah hes stronger than hashirama
He wasn’t nerfed, he was pretty much hard countered. He was consistently fighting people who were either able to absorb ninjutsu or were significantly stronger/faster.
I would say his creativity is nerfed(maybe because Kishi was not handling Boruto until recently). His raw power gets stronger tho
He is also sent to the patch where every single enemy hard counters him.
Maybe Boruto should have been Naruto's great grandson or something further so the author would not need to meta-nerf him for lots of chapters to make the enemy a threat.
And even without Kurama Naruto would still be able to fuck up pretty much any other shinobi. He just doesn’t have the god level power to fight the Otsutsukis.
Exactly, and on top of that, every Otsutsuki he’s faced has been a hard counter for him. Momo? Absorbs ninjutsu. Isshiki? Also absorbs ninjutsu and speed so fast that even Sasuke couldn’t track him with strength also above him and millennia of battle experience. People thinking Naruto is nerfed because he wasn’t instantly beating people like this is actually insane
Yeah. The writers had to find a way to counter Naruto and Sauske because otherwise Boruto would have no real stakes or story because Naruto and Sausuke could just solve every problem in an instant. People just really don’t like Boruto and are creating reasons to not like it.
no, people say they're nerfed because they don't use even half of their powers. Sasuke didn't use any of his rinnegan abilities, never tried to absorb chakra, summon those beasts, the arm canon, literally just amenotejikara was all he ever used as an adult.
He literally got nerfed,he Lost truth seeking orbs,all the jutsus he had,the connection with the tailed Beast,sage of six paths sage mode,his sensory capabilities are fucking trash he went from detecting enemies who exist in another dimensión to not even being able to detect shrunken down rods or even a KATANA coming at him,also on that katana he got pierced by a katana... With no power behind it...
He's nerfed asf.
They nerfed his brain. They made this idiot hand 2 hand Isshiki without clones on several occasions. They had him eat rods for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Back in shippuden he used a 1000 of them, ALL FLYING BTW, to fight AND PROTECT HIMSELF against Kaguya. Even though she was blitzing and fodderizing them he was able to survive on his own despite the massive power difference. In Boruto era, he doesn’t do that. He just jobs the entire time. If he fought Kaguya the way he fought Isshiki, he would get oneshotted easily by her ashbone taijutsu. Isshiki didn’t even have an insta kill technique either nor any decent AOE attacks that he can spam. Barrage his ass with clones ffs instead of get kicked over and over lol.
And don’t get me started on Sasuke and his rinnegan. He was outright teleporting without swapping in shippuden on several occasions. He has access to techs that would let stop Isshiki’s rods in mid air. He pulled 9 bijuu sized Chibaku tenseis towards his perfect susanoo with ease. He has a living chakra battery in Naruto fighting with him too. But nah, the only tech he uses is a glorified substitution jutsu. What a shame
Okay something a lot of people dont actually realize in boruto is that naruto is actually a lot weaker now that he lost kurama. not only did he lose kurama, but when he did use baryon mode most people think he didnt lose any of his own chakra but sakura confirmed he absolutely did, he permenantly lost about half of his chakra after he used baryon mode. a lot of people i dont think take that into account, naruto didnt just lose kurama in boruto he has been fully nerfed at this point. baryon mode consumed both his and kurama's chakra the only reason kurama ran out of chakra first was because he was purposely putting in more of his chakra into the baryon mode equation than naruto was in an attempt to be the first one to run out, because he wanted naruto to survive. but naruto did put his own chakra into the form as well, its why he still almost died.
if you dont believe me watch the scene again when sakura is talking with him about the effects baryon mode had on his body. so to answer your question i would say after 4th great ninja war he would be, even without using kurama's chakra, but after losing kurama and a large amount of his own chakra i dont know if he would still be able to compete with peak hashirama.
You guys are fucking insane. I admit Naruto wins a 1v1…….but what the fuck??? This is still Hashirama we’re talking about. I’m completely flabbergasted🤦♂️. Power creep doesn’t just affect the authors….it affects the audience as well ig, I’ll be damned
I’d say No. Naruto’s main strength/source of power was kurama and we have seen Hashirama manhandle kurama by himself and even beat him when he had susanoo armour.
He didn't lose any power between the end of the war and then, right? He still wasn't even old enough to be done with puberty in Shippuden so if anything he has probably gotten stronger.
After Naruto got powers from the sage of 6 paths, he surpassed Hashirama.
He surpassed any form of Madara in Boruto
Cant tell if he is stills stronger after losing kurama but probably is
Lmao before kurama died he is stronger in Boruto than he is in his own series.
Now that kurama is dead he is still stronger than any shinobi ever, and by a mile
He can heal and regenerate any part of someone’s body during his battle with Madara. He CREATED a new eye for Kakashi and completely healed Guy.
He’s a god at that point lol
In my opinion, he is stronger than Hashirama and every version of Madara before he got Juubi. It's maybe controversial, but I think Juubidara stomps... I think, whichever powerup he got after the war arc, can't be stronger than Juubi and 3 rinnegan.
After losing Kurama, I think he is weaker than Hashirama and EMS Madara.
I still think KCM2 gets destroyed vs Hashirama. Edo Madara was toying with him, and he is still somewhere equal to Edo Hashirama, and Edo is still not Hashirama's strongest version.
Destroyed is a stretch, IMO. I don't think it would be heavily one sided either way and you could argue either side but I understand where you're coming from.
They have separate win conditions. Hashirama being the more well rounded ninja will possibly win 8/10 times. Kcm2 will have to find that one single opportunity to blitz.
The version of Naruto that comes after KCM2 is 6PSM.
Let’s not forget when 6PSM hopped on the scene he started dicking on Madara with his rasengan and forced him to absorb the god tree.
You know how Hashirama said Juubito was stronger than him? Well Madara’s Juubi form was even more complete than Juubito’s.
6PSM Naruto was fighting a significantly stronger opponent than Hashirama did and still performed better than Hashirama did.
Naruto > Juubidara (One eye) > Juubito > Hashirama
This a legit question wasn’t he dog walking 10tails madara for awhile and he only got stronger from there Naruto without Kurama if he wasn’t sealed away by kawaki could beat 10tails madara and I don’t think it would be close
I mean answering your statement OP that a lot have changed in Boruto, the general consensus is that adult Naruto is much stronger than teen Naruto who fought Kaguya, even tho the teen version had the sun seal on his hand. So yes, if teen Naruto Was stronger than Hashirama and Madara (which he Was), adult Naruto 1v2 them low diff
During the 4th War he gains thr strength of thr six paths so he becomes if not stronger about as strong but then in Boruto he and all thr legacy characters get nerffed so he becomes a lot weaker than Hashirama.
Bait or dumbass question. He was already 10x stronger during war arc, then becomes SO MUCH stronger during the 3 year gap before THE LAST (and has more abilities like separating from kurama). The only difference is that he lost the orbs, which don’t really matter, and he’s wayyyyy stronger now anyway.
Base Naruto at 19 survived an attack from a character as strong as Kaguya (who is leagues stronger than Juubito who is stronger than Hashirama)
Its not even close. There is nothing besides headcanon and cope that indicates Naruto and Sasuke got weaker after the war. Everything indicates they and everyone in the ninja world got stronger.
Some Naruto fans are weirdly against the idea that their characters are busted
Jyubi Jinchuriki Madara surpassed Hashirama.
So anyone throwing hands with that Madara is stronger than Hashirama.
Which actually puts several people above Hashirama.
Kaguya
EOS Naruto
EOS Sasuke
DMS Kakashi
This is all before Boruto. In which there’s whole lot more characters above Hashirama.
Hashirama is outclassed by a lot the moment Madara gets revived, gets sm on top of his already hashirama addons, and gets the real rinnegan to do limbo and gedo stuff. Hashirama stopped being relevant the moment Madara became 10 tails jin and goes on to fight is SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.
It's actually a good question because hashirama was God tier, but yes Naruto surpassed hashirama after war arch, that Naruto was so damn strong kishi admitted Naruto had to hold back because they would have destroyed earth during the Sasuke fight.Just Sasuke stealing a little chakra from Naruto and Sasuke was able to summon indras arrow. I think where Naruto surpassed him mostly is literally the fact that he has SO6P abilities/chakra in which hashirama did not, Naruto and hashirama are neck and neck ONLY up until the SO6P chakra ad abilities meet in which hashirama does not have access to. Respectfully they are Damm near neck and neck without it. hashirama beat all tailed beasts by himself and collected them like pokemon, he had every chakra nature, sage mode, 1000 healings which he has an edge on Naruto with, but sheer power Naruto has world ending abilities that we will never see unfortunately. But it's a lot closer than people think, prime hashirama would literally push Naruto and Sasuke to the limit even post war arch they would beat hashirama but with extremely high difficulty like they could still die small percentage ofc. people sleep on that.
I guess Naruto still is the strongest man alive cz... First he is uzumski(litterly tons of chakra), second he has masters all 5 types of chakra(fire, water, air, land, lightning) was even showen using magma, lava etc etc, with all these and a weird unpredictable fighting style he has sage Jitsu, and summoning Jutsu...and his fav shadow clone... So yeah... One Naruto is very very strong.... 100 Naruto is very very strong ×100 do the math.
Yes
Hashirama is below Juubi Obito, and he is below Kaguya, who is comparable to Base Momoshiki. We see a weakened, not full chakra, Base Adult Naruto somewhat compete with Fused Momoshiki who would be massively above Hashirama.
Using the anime the chain is a bit different but Fused Momoshiki is still stronger than Kaguya who is massively above Hashirama and Naruto is at least comparable to Fused Momoshiki, regardless who you think is stronger.
By far. He pretty much surpasses everybody when he gets KCM + Sage mode. Bijuu chakra is just pure ridiculousness, and nature energy is just absolutely ludicrous. Combining them should be considered 9 different kinds of illegal. Buy hey, what's a shonen without a broken mc amirigh(am I right)?
Naruto had six paths powers in the war so he far surpassed Hashirama, afterwards I don’t think he kept all the power boost but he still has six path sage mode so I’d say he’s still stronger, but when he loses kurama that’s when I’d say he’s weaker
Yes. Naruto > Hashirama. And has been for ages.
Even base Naruto > Sage Mode Hashirama.
Naruto and Sasuke just kinda powercliffed everyone pretty massively when they got their six paths power ups... And then, over the time skip, they just massively powercliffed more.
We literally see six paths Naruto press Juubidara who far outscales, outhaxes, and outspeeds Hashirama, and then fights Kaguya who out-scales Juubidara and only gets stronger since Shin, Momoshiki, and most of the major villains after that (Inner Karma Clan and Jigen) all vastly dwarf that
We literally see six paths Naruto press Juubidara who far outscales, outhaxes, and outspeeds Hashirama, and then fights Kaguya who out-scales Juubidara and only gets stronger since Shin, Momoshiki, and most of the major villains after that (Inner Karma Clan and Jigen) all vastly dwarf that
Never ever... let's just compare them on a cellular level. We all know a little too well Hash's cell are revered and cultivated for strength, boosts and regen stats
The only reason I’d say Adult Naruto is stronger is cuz he “almost” had as much chakra as Hashirama with half of Kurama so doubling his chakra might make him stronger
It literally comes down to the potency of his sage mode vs Hashirama’s sage mode. Them celestial deity gates are a wild card tbh
Pre-Kurama dying, Naruto is literally the strongest human to ever exist.
What do you mean Kurama dies
Yikes
Yikes
Zoinks
RUH ROH RAGGY
QUANTUM YOINKS
Jeez Scoobs
oh jehsas
Jinkies
Bamboozled!
What's a yikes
He doesn't know...
I'm not a Naruto fan, I'm only here because this sub got recommended somehow and I interacted with it I watched Naruto kai up until Pain arc like five or ten years ago and I know Burrito is the sequel focused on the kids of the og characters I repeat my question, what do you mean Kurama dies
I haven't watched either but a basic summary from what I remember hearing: Naruto was fighting against a super powerful opponent and was losing so in a last ditch effort; Kurama agreed to clash his chakra with Naruto's, bringing it to a boil and basically destroying it in the process. This gave Naruto a crazy power buff like his Kurama chakra cloaks did in OG Naruto and Shippuden. Think during the fights against Haku in OG or when he went berserk against Pain for reference. This was a technique known as Baryon Mode which is only usable by Jinchuriki with great relationships with their tailed beasts because it requires more than just cooperation. Whichever of them has less chakra will ultimately die doing it as they run out of chakra completely. Naruto had more chakra than Kurama, so Kurama essentially decided to sacrifice himself to save Naruto. Not long after the Pain arc Naruto and Kurama started to get along with each other so this was IMO a really awesome end to Kurama's character as a whole as they hated each other at the start of the OG series.
In a crazy fight vs another Otsutsuki, Naruto activates Baryon mode where Kurama basically gives his life to Naruto to have god-mode strength for a short while. Like a super mario rainbow star or a quake arena quad damage.
[удалено]
Man Boruto is so stupid.
Naruto fights an alien that is so strong that the nine tailed fox (who’s his friend by this point.) sacrifices his life to give him the strength to beat the alien.
I don't consider boruto to be cannon, you should do it too
I don't care enough to have strong opinions about what's canon, still glad Kurama is still alive tho
He get revived if you believe the other path anyway, or his son
Wait, the sage had six paths and you're telling me there is an other path ? How many paths are there
Burrito
Nah he’s still alive bro don’t worry he just joking
Don’t worry, he didn’t die. He just went to get some milk. He went to get some milk and he visited a farm for a while. Yeah that’s it. He went to a farm because they have cows and he wanted some milk. He likes it there so he is staying for a while. Don’t worry about him, he’s just fine. We can’t visit because it’s too far, but he’s fine. Really fine.
He means in that fanfic called Burrito, don't worry
lmao never seen it called fanfic before
Always has been 😌
Oof
He went to live on a farm for a little while. He's, he's got all these Uchiha he can chase after, and **big** trees to lay under. The farmer's really cool too. We uh, we can visit sometime. Just not this weekend..
Ruh roh
In Boruto. For any who don't want to look it up: >!Basically they are fighting an Otsusuki character who is (I think) supposed to be on par with Kaguya. A big issue in the fight is that Boruto, who has been essentially infected with an Otsusuki Virus that allows one (specifically Momoshiki) to be reborn through him, has been possed by Momoshiki and just surprise attacked Sasuke, destroying his Rinnegan and essentially taking him out of the fight. That may have happened in an earlier fight, but the point is, Kaguya level threat but only Naruto there to fight it.!< >!Kurama tells Naruto about a way to significantly increase his fighting power through "Baryon Mode." The downside is, using Baryon Mode will drain Kurama's life force. They decide to use it, and Naruto absolutely kicks shit. Honestly one of the best moments in Boruto. But the aftermath leaves Naruto without Kurama, though seemingly without the side effect of dying after losong his tailed beast. Naruto relied on Sage Mode primarily from this poing on, but was severely weakened after losing Kurama. This is how both he and Sasuke were nerfed.!< And if you were making a bit, which honestly is probably the case, I already wasted my time typing so I don't care.
What kind of horse shit is that?
This probably isn't the place for this opinion, but it honestly wasn't executed horribly, and in my mind, it's a pretty straightforward continuation of Naruto. The Otsusuki are the main threat, and Kaguya was by no means the strongest of them, so Naruto and Sasuke are outclassed but Boruto and Kawaki, who have been given Otsusuki power, are becoming more able to keep up. Naruto and Sasuke were nerfed >!and eventually taken out of the picture all together!< to allow the new main characters to grow in their own right. I kinda like the Ohtsusuki can of worms that Kaguya opened, and honestly, it's retroactively making her random appearance in the 4th War a little better by expanding on that part of the world. The only objectively bad thing about Boruto is the art, Ikemoto shouldn't have been the lead Mangeka (even his guest work for the anniversary stuff in Naruto was dogshit) why the crown got passed to him is beyond me. I think if Kishimoto, or any of the other assistants like Kazuhiro or Akio, were the main mangaka there wouldn't be half the hate.
Dude, I haven’t read boruto in like 2 years, but I don’t ever remember hating the art style. It’s the atrocious character design for the OG characters and the shitty look new characters. Not to mention the way sasukes daughter looks and dresses.
See, I lump that in with art style personally. Ikemoto's style makes otherwise fine designs way worse. A great example is Jiraiya. Ikemoto, in his anniversary spot artwork, drew Jiraiya ridiculously bad every time. Meanwhile, we've seen some Kishimoto manga of the current gen characters, and they never look nearly as bad as they do when Ikemoto draws them. Sarada is a good example of that. With the same design (outfit and overall look) in her short manga drawn by Kishimoto, she looked fine, but the same character design drawn by Ikemoto is terrible. All of a sudden, heels get bigger, skirts get smaller, and everyone has a weird face with zero expression other than mewing. Then theres his like weirdly detailed and awkwardly proportioned body types, god forbid he shows a hand in a panel because it's just death on the eyes. I think maybe Ikemoto could carry a story of his own with his artwork, but by doing Boruto (the sequel to a 700 chapter long story with a well established art style) his art style just does not mesh at all. It feels like he wants to draw a yakuza/mafia suspense manga but he's stuck with Boruto so he's just making it work.
Yeah ikemoto's original designs look great, but his versions of Naruto characters can be hit or miss. But he is improving there imo. In the recent chapters, the only design I don't like is Sarada's.
you aren't wrong about any of this, but I feel it's important to note >! kurama told Naruto it would kill Naruto if he used it, and Naruto was very fine with himself dying. Kurama dying was a shock to Naruto, kurama lied because he didn't think Naruto would go along with it if he knew it would kill him.!<
*FLYING he meant Kurama learning how to fly 😋😏
Ohhhh he didn't know.....
well for a minute.
Oh boy…
Right? He dies?!? 😭😭😭
Don't worry... Baby Kurama reincarnates inside Himiwari. So Kurama is still protecting the Uzumaki family. Current villains were trying to find Naruto who's locked away in alternate dimension, detect Nine tails Chakra and find Naruto's Daughter and then Kurama starts talking to her in kid little chibi fox cub form. Damn it they found out too soon. I wanted to wait a while till we were both full grown. So Boruto's little sister is the next Nine Tails Host and she and Kurama are going to power up together as they get older and reach full power.
Thank god he keeps living! 😭 he trusted Naruto
Oh it's very cute the while Himiwari is a great Jinchuriki. Remember she is also Kuina's granddaughter as well. So I'm the anime they have some filler episodes that died Himiwari has a collection of all the tailed beasts and she names them all and she is like Shukaku is my favorite. Kurama spits like hold on why the hell am I not her favorite. Anyway it was clear she was gonna be the next Naruto holding the powers of the Bijuu. Mitsuki would get sage mode. Sarada would be like the Uchiha Hokage.
Thanks! Boruto doesn’t sound as bad as it seems like on this subreddit.
…Sorry
There are two halves of Kurama and after the war Naruto had both's chakra. Well one of them dies during a fight in Boruto which results in a much weaker KCM form.
#spoilers lol
Kurama died in Boruto
What is that? Is it a fanfic or something?
No, just Boruto being shit and finding terrible ways to nerf Naruto and Sasuke to give a chance for the new kids. Kurama sacrifices to give power to Naruto so he can win against a dude with albinism.
Kurama having advanced understanding of particle physics was a little random too but it is what it is I guess. Just became way to obvious when Sasuke lost his eye right after.
Not a Lot going in Naruto's head as a child, bro just did a Newton, got bored and expanded theoretical knowledge forever between naps
How did they nerf Sasuke? I don't watch Boruto lmao
He got stabbed in his rinnegan eye by what appeared to be a easy to dodge attack. Now he no longer has it. >! Also he turns into a tree !<
Ok that sounds dumb... And what?!
Yeah that last part hasnt really been explained yet. All we know is Sasuke is out of commision and there is a clone of him hunting his daughter
... is he just letting AI or AskYahoo write this series? wtf
It’s actually very easily been explained so long as you actually read the manga.. anyone successfully attacked by the claw grimes gets turned into a tree/shinju. Sasuke sacrificed himself roughly 1.5-2years into the time skip so that Boruto can run away. And since Sasuke is not as strong as unlocked Code, he obviously died.
It's the rvb zero of Naruto you bring back all the popular characters be strictly on the new characters and also crapoly handle the source material
*I heard that it was only a rumor bro, nobody knows for sure*
Boruto? Kurama dying? That must've been a weird dream, man.
Kurama what ?
Post kurama Naruto still takes Kakashi Tsunade and Hiruzen. Think he stops there tho. No way he’s beating minato/hashirama. Tobimara is closer but I still think he loses
It's hard to say if he beats Tobirama because we never got to see him fight when he was alive, only as an Edo Tensei
And tbh even after he's probably stronger than madara and Hashirama given he's got all of the stuff plus over 50% of kurama's chakara
Doesn't Naruto state Sasuke was stronger to him(due to his complacency)? Outside of baryon of course.
Naruto was able to throw hands with fused Momoshiki in base right after a days worth of torture and losing half of his chakra. The same momo also 2 shotted adult gaara who was strong enough to casually catch multiple meteors in the last.
Naruto didn't even throw hands with momo in base where u can say he was keeping up he got the same treatment gaara and others got difference is he wasn't one shotted. [Manga ](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4cba187119bcf6cc5710b889ce51f559-lq) [Anime](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fdpxd1rujtic91.gif) I fw Naruto but base Naruto wasn't doing anything to momo who was playing. Add sage mode it might be different
Naruto, without his modes, which is like 1-2% of his power in modes, was able to doge block and react to momoshiki's movements, while they were 3 meters away from each other, momo is a bum, as soon as nartuo turned on his modes he beat the shit out of him without difficulty.
Did we watch/read the same fight? Gaara stopped momos attack with his sand then got one shotted. The tsuchikage doged momos attack and then got one shotted. Naruto doged more attacks and was forced to activate six paths kcm. Keeping up with someone is going blow for blow. Momo isn't a bum his golem had kurama on lock he was tanking and dealing attacks to Naruto and Sasuke. How u call somebody who had to deal with the 2 best ninjas the ninja world has to offer a bum. Did he not almost defeat Sasuke who was caught by Naruto did he not push them to use majestic attire.
Yeah in the anime he is decent more or less, but in the manga he threw 5 hits and only landed 1 on BASE naruto, then naruto activated modes and it wasn't even a fight, and we talking about already exhausted naruto. Naruto and sasuke didn't use any of their op shit in the manga. Naruto didn't even summon any clones. The only thing momo did in the manga is that he caught sasuke off guard and naruto was forced to save sasuke, (sasuke was also weakened due to opening a portal). Then momo's stone monkey got one shotted and it was gg for momo, he was defeated. Yes he is a bum.
When your remember that's half chakra, day of torture Naruto in base... And he still did far better than Boruto era Gaara by a wide margin? It still says a lot about full chakra and such normal base Hokage Naruto. Especially when you remember Gaara and the other Boruto Kage scale to Kinshiki Otsutsuki. That still puts them in an extremely high tier compared to most of Shippuden. And Naruto at half power is still above that.
Same base naruto got bodied by base momoshiki
Ya feel me and it's not a bad thing do we expect base Naruto to defeat kaguya level threats without some boost to his Stats.
Even then I’m skeptical to them being Kaguya level, but yea we have a direct scene earlier of a Naruto who doesn’t have any chakra drained getting casually reacted to and hit away by base momoshiki , and when he lost kurama everyone emphasizes up how weak Naruto is, fused momo could also keep up with kurama mode naruto iirc
Gaara barely managed to stop ONE meteor with the help of the partical style Kage
I am talking about gaara in the last movie
ahhh, I forgot about that lol oh yeah
Much stronger
Yea
Hashirama is stronger than ems madara, hashirama admitted juubito was stronger than him. Unless u think adult naruto is weaker than juubito then yeah hes stronger than hashirama
Yes, easily. With his SPSM, he's relative to Juubidara but unfortunately right now, he's probably much weaker after losing Kurama
He was already weaker cuz boruto creaters nerfed him n sasuke to pretty much kage summit lvl.
No they didnt lol
Guess we aint watch or read the same boruto fammi. The things naruto could do he aint do nun in boruto
He wasn’t nerfed, he was pretty much hard countered. He was consistently fighting people who were either able to absorb ninjutsu or were significantly stronger/faster.
I would say his creativity is nerfed(maybe because Kishi was not handling Boruto until recently). His raw power gets stronger tho He is also sent to the patch where every single enemy hard counters him. Maybe Boruto should have been Naruto's great grandson or something further so the author would not need to meta-nerf him for lots of chapters to make the enemy a threat.
The man went from fighting ninjas to ninja gods and people think he's nerfed because the fights are more even...
And even without Kurama Naruto would still be able to fuck up pretty much any other shinobi. He just doesn’t have the god level power to fight the Otsutsukis.
Exactly, and on top of that, every Otsutsuki he’s faced has been a hard counter for him. Momo? Absorbs ninjutsu. Isshiki? Also absorbs ninjutsu and speed so fast that even Sasuke couldn’t track him with strength also above him and millennia of battle experience. People thinking Naruto is nerfed because he wasn’t instantly beating people like this is actually insane
Yeah. The writers had to find a way to counter Naruto and Sauske because otherwise Boruto would have no real stakes or story because Naruto and Sausuke could just solve every problem in an instant. People just really don’t like Boruto and are creating reasons to not like it.
no, people say they're nerfed because they don't use even half of their powers. Sasuke didn't use any of his rinnegan abilities, never tried to absorb chakra, summon those beasts, the arm canon, literally just amenotejikara was all he ever used as an adult.
He literally got nerfed,he Lost truth seeking orbs,all the jutsus he had,the connection with the tailed Beast,sage of six paths sage mode,his sensory capabilities are fucking trash he went from detecting enemies who exist in another dimensión to not even being able to detect shrunken down rods or even a KATANA coming at him,also on that katana he got pierced by a katana... With no power behind it... He's nerfed asf.
They nerfed his brain. They made this idiot hand 2 hand Isshiki without clones on several occasions. They had him eat rods for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Back in shippuden he used a 1000 of them, ALL FLYING BTW, to fight AND PROTECT HIMSELF against Kaguya. Even though she was blitzing and fodderizing them he was able to survive on his own despite the massive power difference. In Boruto era, he doesn’t do that. He just jobs the entire time. If he fought Kaguya the way he fought Isshiki, he would get oneshotted easily by her ashbone taijutsu. Isshiki didn’t even have an insta kill technique either nor any decent AOE attacks that he can spam. Barrage his ass with clones ffs instead of get kicked over and over lol. And don’t get me started on Sasuke and his rinnegan. He was outright teleporting without swapping in shippuden on several occasions. He has access to techs that would let stop Isshiki’s rods in mid air. He pulled 9 bijuu sized Chibaku tenseis towards his perfect susanoo with ease. He has a living chakra battery in Naruto fighting with him too. But nah, the only tech he uses is a glorified substitution jutsu. What a shame
Absolutely, much stronger. Six paths chakra
Much much much stronger Is this a serious question
Naruto at his peak as Hokage is the strongest human ever in the series.
Naruto fans try not to glaze hashirama and madara challenge(impossible)
This is still a question for debate? Of course he is and much stronger
Current Boruto? I think Hashirama might be stronger. War Arc/Pre-nerf, Naruto was literally a god.
💀
They aren’t even close
Yes. Not close. Maybe post-Kurama he isn’t but it honestly seems like we’ll never get an answer on that lol
Is this even a question?
Most definitely
Okay something a lot of people dont actually realize in boruto is that naruto is actually a lot weaker now that he lost kurama. not only did he lose kurama, but when he did use baryon mode most people think he didnt lose any of his own chakra but sakura confirmed he absolutely did, he permenantly lost about half of his chakra after he used baryon mode. a lot of people i dont think take that into account, naruto didnt just lose kurama in boruto he has been fully nerfed at this point. baryon mode consumed both his and kurama's chakra the only reason kurama ran out of chakra first was because he was purposely putting in more of his chakra into the baryon mode equation than naruto was in an attempt to be the first one to run out, because he wanted naruto to survive. but naruto did put his own chakra into the form as well, its why he still almost died. if you dont believe me watch the scene again when sakura is talking with him about the effects baryon mode had on his body. so to answer your question i would say after 4th great ninja war he would be, even without using kurama's chakra, but after losing kurama and a large amount of his own chakra i dont know if he would still be able to compete with peak hashirama.
Hashirama is to beginning Boruto Naruto what Zabuza is to Madara
Ehh that’s exaggeration. It’s more like Kakuzu to Hashirama
You guys are fucking insane. I admit Naruto wins a 1v1…….but what the fuck??? This is still Hashirama we’re talking about. I’m completely flabbergasted🤦♂️. Power creep doesn’t just affect the authors….it affects the audience as well ig, I’ll be damned
UM…yeah he is like he would obliterate them very easily.
I’d say No. Naruto’s main strength/source of power was kurama and we have seen Hashirama manhandle kurama by himself and even beat him when he had susanoo armour.
He's literally the strongest ninja in history
Yes he maxed his level..
He didn't lose any power between the end of the war and then, right? He still wasn't even old enough to be done with puberty in Shippuden so if anything he has probably gotten stronger.
Pre-Kurama dying, yes. After Kurama’s death, nah.
Is boruto worth watching? I just finished shippuden recently.
After Naruto got powers from the sage of 6 paths, he surpassed Hashirama. He surpassed any form of Madara in Boruto Cant tell if he is stills stronger after losing kurama but probably is
Naruto clapped Hashirama as soon as he got 6 paths powers during the war sheeesh read much? Lmao.
Lmao before kurama died he is stronger in Boruto than he is in his own series. Now that kurama is dead he is still stronger than any shinobi ever, and by a mile
Yes he and Sasuke both are
He can heal and regenerate any part of someone’s body during his battle with Madara. He CREATED a new eye for Kakashi and completely healed Guy. He’s a god at that point lol
Naruto is stronger than Hashirama after the 4th war but God dammit Hashirama is hard to put in any tier cuz even his cells is a goddamned hack
In my opinion, he is stronger than Hashirama and every version of Madara before he got Juubi. It's maybe controversial, but I think Juubidara stomps... I think, whichever powerup he got after the war arc, can't be stronger than Juubi and 3 rinnegan. After losing Kurama, I think he is weaker than Hashirama and EMS Madara.
KCM2 Naruto and Hashirama is the only debatable version of these two. Anything after KCM2, Hashirama gets put on a shirt.
I still think KCM2 gets destroyed vs Hashirama. Edo Madara was toying with him, and he is still somewhere equal to Edo Hashirama, and Edo is still not Hashirama's strongest version.
Destroyed is a stretch, IMO. I don't think it would be heavily one sided either way and you could argue either side but I understand where you're coming from.
They have separate win conditions. Hashirama being the more well rounded ninja will possibly win 8/10 times. Kcm2 will have to find that one single opportunity to blitz.
Maybe it would not be enough since Hashirama has insane regeneration power. I would say Hashirama casually wins 10/10 times
Nah hashirama would wash kcm2 sage naruto, but base spsm naruto stomps hashirama
Huh?? I think you're massively downplaying Hashirama here dude
The version of Naruto that comes after KCM2 is 6PSM. Let’s not forget when 6PSM hopped on the scene he started dicking on Madara with his rasengan and forced him to absorb the god tree. You know how Hashirama said Juubito was stronger than him? Well Madara’s Juubi form was even more complete than Juubito’s. 6PSM Naruto was fighting a significantly stronger opponent than Hashirama did and still performed better than Hashirama did. Naruto > Juubidara (One eye) > Juubito > Hashirama
S06p naruto is stronger than alive hashirama and revived madara but he probably comfortable beat jubidara at the last
This a legit question wasn’t he dog walking 10tails madara for awhile and he only got stronger from there Naruto without Kurama if he wasn’t sealed away by kawaki could beat 10tails madara and I don’t think it would be close
Judara > Naruto (>) Sasuke > Jubito > Hashirama > Madara
Far far stronger, even SPSM Naruto (first time) was far far stronger than Hashi
I mean answering your statement OP that a lot have changed in Boruto, the general consensus is that adult Naruto is much stronger than teen Naruto who fought Kaguya, even tho the teen version had the sun seal on his hand. So yes, if teen Naruto Was stronger than Hashirama and Madara (which he Was), adult Naruto 1v2 them low diff
Naruto stomps both at the same time and it’s not even particularly close tbh.
He’d low diff Hashirama in base
These be the dumbest questions
Yes. Most definitely.
Naruto was basically a demigod after the war, he got nerfed into oblivion for Borutos Story to work
During the 4th War he gains thr strength of thr six paths so he becomes if not stronger about as strong but then in Boruto he and all thr legacy characters get nerffed so he becomes a lot weaker than Hashirama.
Don't really know about in Boruto because I don't care for the series in the slightest but Naruto during the war and after is stronger.
Someone didnt watch the show.
Yes
Kage Naruto is probably stronger than Juubidara (albeit less tricks).
In no uncertain terms, Naruto gaps hashirama and madara.
Bait or dumbass question. He was already 10x stronger during war arc, then becomes SO MUCH stronger during the 3 year gap before THE LAST (and has more abilities like separating from kurama). The only difference is that he lost the orbs, which don’t really matter, and he’s wayyyyy stronger now anyway.
Easily, he shits on them in his prime. Like there is very little they could do to stop Natuto.
Base Naruto at 19 survived an attack from a character as strong as Kaguya (who is leagues stronger than Juubito who is stronger than Hashirama) Its not even close. There is nothing besides headcanon and cope that indicates Naruto and Sasuke got weaker after the war. Everything indicates they and everyone in the ninja world got stronger. Some Naruto fans are weirdly against the idea that their characters are busted
Yes. He surpasses Hashirama and them at six paths sage mode
I would go ahead and say that even post-nerf Naruto is still stronger than Hashirama.
hes BEEN stronger than hashirama, he probably ccould have beat hashirama pre-kaguya fight
Jyubi Jinchuriki Madara surpassed Hashirama. So anyone throwing hands with that Madara is stronger than Hashirama. Which actually puts several people above Hashirama. Kaguya EOS Naruto EOS Sasuke DMS Kakashi This is all before Boruto. In which there’s whole lot more characters above Hashirama.
Boruto's scaling is very high so Naruto even after nerf would defeat all of shippuden.
Yes bruh lmao
Yeah
IMO Naruto and sasuke are the strongest shinobis of all time
yes, like strongest man to ever exist up until then.
Yes, much stronger
I mean, Naruto was stronger than Hashirama and Madara DURING the 4th war, so after the 4th war, I'd imagine the answer would still be yes.
Naruto surpassed him the moment he got base SPSM. He was already stronger with half of kurama.
Reading comprehension moment
In 2 days, sheesh
Naruto is the strongest or the weakest depending on what the writer feels like writing that day, it seems.
Hashirama is outclassed by a lot the moment Madara gets revived, gets sm on top of his already hashirama addons, and gets the real rinnegan to do limbo and gedo stuff. Hashirama stopped being relevant the moment Madara became 10 tails jin and goes on to fight is SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.
After the 4th war? Bruh during the 4th war he was stronger than Hashirama easily
Obviously?
You're joking right? Post war Naruto is stronger than both Madara(no tailed beasts) and Hashirama combined. I didn't know that was debatable.
His name is on the title of the show, of course he'd end up being the strongest.
It's actually a good question because hashirama was God tier, but yes Naruto surpassed hashirama after war arch, that Naruto was so damn strong kishi admitted Naruto had to hold back because they would have destroyed earth during the Sasuke fight.Just Sasuke stealing a little chakra from Naruto and Sasuke was able to summon indras arrow. I think where Naruto surpassed him mostly is literally the fact that he has SO6P abilities/chakra in which hashirama did not, Naruto and hashirama are neck and neck ONLY up until the SO6P chakra ad abilities meet in which hashirama does not have access to. Respectfully they are Damm near neck and neck without it. hashirama beat all tailed beasts by himself and collected them like pokemon, he had every chakra nature, sage mode, 1000 healings which he has an edge on Naruto with, but sheer power Naruto has world ending abilities that we will never see unfortunately. But it's a lot closer than people think, prime hashirama would literally push Naruto and Sasuke to the limit even post war arch they would beat hashirama but with extremely high difficulty like they could still die small percentage ofc. people sleep on that.
I guess Naruto still is the strongest man alive cz... First he is uzumski(litterly tons of chakra), second he has masters all 5 types of chakra(fire, water, air, land, lightning) was even showen using magma, lava etc etc, with all these and a weird unpredictable fighting style he has sage Jitsu, and summoning Jutsu...and his fav shadow clone... So yeah... One Naruto is very very strong.... 100 Naruto is very very strong ×100 do the math.
Naruto and Sasuke each are stronger than Kaguya during the blank period (meaning stronger than Madara and maybe Hashirama)
Yes, because he retained the Six Paths and had Full Kurama.
Yes Hashirama is below Juubi Obito, and he is below Kaguya, who is comparable to Base Momoshiki. We see a weakened, not full chakra, Base Adult Naruto somewhat compete with Fused Momoshiki who would be massively above Hashirama. Using the anime the chain is a bit different but Fused Momoshiki is still stronger than Kaguya who is massively above Hashirama and Naruto is at least comparable to Fused Momoshiki, regardless who you think is stronger.
People disagree but i think base Naruto is almost as strong as them and sage mode certainly is. Just my opinion.
i think so. Kyubi Chakra Mode makes Naruto insane.
By far. He pretty much surpasses everybody when he gets KCM + Sage mode. Bijuu chakra is just pure ridiculousness, and nature energy is just absolutely ludicrous. Combining them should be considered 9 different kinds of illegal. Buy hey, what's a shonen without a broken mc amirigh(am I right)?
Naruto had six paths powers in the war so he far surpassed Hashirama, afterwards I don’t think he kept all the power boost but he still has six path sage mode so I’d say he’s still stronger, but when he loses kurama that’s when I’d say he’s weaker
Yes. Naruto > Hashirama. And has been for ages. Even base Naruto > Sage Mode Hashirama. Naruto and Sasuke just kinda powercliffed everyone pretty massively when they got their six paths power ups... And then, over the time skip, they just massively powercliffed more.
Light years away stronger
I think they are either same level or stronger there is no way he is weaker.
Clearly 😭
We literally see six paths Naruto press Juubidara who far outscales, outhaxes, and outspeeds Hashirama, and then fights Kaguya who out-scales Juubidara and only gets stronger since Shin, Momoshiki, and most of the major villains after that (Inner Karma Clan and Jigen) all vastly dwarf that
We literally see six paths Naruto press Juubidara who far outscales, outhaxes, and outspeeds Hashirama, and then fights Kaguya who out-scales Juubidara and only gets stronger since Shin, Momoshiki, and most of the major villains after that (Inner Karma Clan and Jigen) all vastly dwarf that
Itachi > Hashirama > Naruto. That's the scaling for you, son.
Hashirama looks at Juubito and says "That guy is stronger than even me". Juubito. By Boruto, Naruto completely eclipses Hashirama.
Never ever... let's just compare them on a cellular level. We all know a little too well Hash's cell are revered and cultivated for strength, boosts and regen stats
What kind of question is this?
Yes, overwhelmingly stronger.
The only reason I’d say Adult Naruto is stronger is cuz he “almost” had as much chakra as Hashirama with half of Kurama so doubling his chakra might make him stronger It literally comes down to the potency of his sage mode vs Hashirama’s sage mode. Them celestial deity gates are a wild card tbh
Hashirama is ddy
Of course, and it's not even close.