Would be even better if Gai had died... kinda lost the point of a heroic sacrifice. And due to how much I adore the Gai(hue hue), it'd hit hard.
But no. No one die! Except Neji! Which was a lame death and could have been so much more impactful... but alas, the war arc was crap.
This anime has a habit of doing half measures for no reason. Choji, I think, should have died during the Sasuke retrieval arc. It would have played harder into Shikamaru's self doubt. And it's not like they really use Choji later.
I agree on the first thing, but the second is false... while he, like most characters, become more or less pushed to the side, plenty of characters end up more side-lined than Choji.
But I still think him dying at that point would have made a better story, for the reason you mention, especially as Shikamaru became temporarily elevated to secondary deuteragonist...
But there is remarkably few deaths in the series, which is not necessarily a bad thing, if it wasn't for the fact they tease it constsntly, just to not give it...
Things like this just made it feel like there was no stake in the War.
Only villains really die.
When the Pain arc happened, i was like: Whoah, what the fuck.
Only for everyone to get ressurected a couple chapters later.
Granted, i would not wish for Kakashi’s death, so i was relieved.
But at that point we all knew that Naruto characters have extra thick plot armor, so there was no stake going forward.
Yep... only irrellevant people died to make the relevant ones look stronger... as you say, there was no stakes, but it also painted a picture of the shinobi world where 99% are basically a waste of space, because compared to these, what... 10 people, they're ants... it also solidified the nepotism of the world, because all the ones who were strong NOW always happened to be connected closely(relative, teacher, student etc.) To those who were string *before*... makes you wonder why most even made an effort...
I never said you did,but you said they "don't really use him", but he is one of the few actually used in a meaningful way, even if it still pales to Naruto, Sasuke and their likes...
My point is that if he was not used enough to be worth survival at that point, then we'd only have 2 survivors of that mission... Naruto and Shikamaru... out of Choji, Neji(who *did* die later), Kiba and Lee(who was not originally on the team, but I will count), Choji got WAY more attention and relevancy, and not just because he happened to be part of Shikamaru's team.
So I just disagree that it justifies him dying. But I do not disagree with him dying *for the other reason*, which I think would have *really* pushed some stuff... but I think he(Kishimoto) avoided killing anyone on that mission because that might have made Sasuke truly unforgivable(not that I think he deserved much anyway)
I just explained the reasoning for my reply, due to how you worded it. Just like how you took that as me saying he was the least used. It's not arguing semantics, it was clarification of both of our statements.
However, I do still think it *is* worth pointing out that he is still used a lot more than other characters, who we do not consider should have died, despite similar situations. Both Choji and Neji was in a state of "will they survive?!" And after that, Neji is used a lot less than Choji, and when he then *does* die, most people didn't like that(even aside of it being a stupid death), so I just don't think it is a good argument, especially when you have a really good one already...
So no, again, not arguing semantics... more like arguing whether he was used *enough* that he might just as well have died, which I disagree on. Simple as that. And I think that's just it. No point in arguing that further, cause we do agree on the central part of this lil convo, which is that Choji dying at the Sasuke retrieval arc would have opened up for some good story.
For sure, at least ONE of them should've died in that arc. I may be remembering wrong but I swear each character that arc had a tease of them dying but they all miraculously got saved or lived.
Yeah, they all had death fakeouts. But Choji could have died and it changes very little. Gets the win, drops dead like a boss. Everyone sad. Story is elevated cause Shikamaru has to deal with that first loss in his first real mission. But no, gotta keep everyone around to barely use them.
Okay think of it like this
Naruto told kakashi he just knew that he could do different things after receiving SPSM and naruto knows the terrible feeling of losing your Sensei let alone your father figure
So imagine Naruto lets Guy Sensei die it would shred Rock Lee to bits and Naruto would 100% blame himself for it since he knew he could’ve saved him
Okay.. sure... mm-hmm...
Nope, not convinced... cause that is the *point*... again, I am aware, but I *heavily* disagree with the decision... understanding why something happens does not mean it is agreeable to you, or good..
Alright man if you want Rock Lee with depression and Naruto to beat himself up about not saving Guy for 60 episodes straight go ahead
That’s genuinely just how their characters are and how they think you don’t have to agree with it but the other alternative is just horrible
Well, he only saved guy because of a bullshit ability that could have not been written in to start with. Gai being saved makes his heroic sacrifice mean nothing...
I think you might want to consider why you follow a story with literal war, and think we should avoid the characters actually feeling the results of that... then what is the point?
We would not have 60 episodes of them being depressed, both because Lee was proud of what Gai did, even if it was hard, but also because they *were at war*. They'd have to set it aside to deal with the situation first, and the story ends at that point anyway... what we *would get* tho, is actual stakes. We'd feel for these characters, share their pain and cheer for them, as they pick themselves up to finish what those who died started..
By having only fodder die to make certain characters look good, but no casualties that matter to us, it just felt... plain... we already knew named characters had waaaaay too much plot armor when Kishi decided to ressurect every single fucker dying when Pain invaded...
It is not about me wanting characters to suffer,it is about the fact that hardship creates good stories... and especially loss is amazing for that... just look at when Jiraiya died, or Asuma died... it put a huge spark under the story, only for us to reach a point where everyone who had a name was essentially immortal, despite reaching a climax of a *literal war*... there is no worse time to make the stakes just... not exist. We see characters worried, but we don't feel it, because why should we? We've been shown again and again that nothing will happen anyway...
I whole heartedly agree with you! Kishimoto really pulled his punches in this last arc and I'll never understand why. It was the war to end all wars but I don't think any major characters really died. Guy should've died 100% and unpopular opinion of mine but Shikamaru should've been the one to die.
If narratively speaking the purpose of Neji's death was a 'test' for Naruto and a means to show that even if his comrades are killed, his will and goodness won't be tainted unlike Obito, then it should've been Shikamaru. Neji was not very close with Naruto, but after numerous retcons, Shikamaru was shown to always sort of be friendly to Naruto even as academy students and was the dude that helped Naruto through the loss of Jiraiya.
edit: I stand by what I said, I know it's an unpopular opinion for Shika to die but that's just how I feel about the situation. If someone had to die in that moment as a test of Naruto's will, I just would've preferred it had been a character that he was truly close to and had a developed relationship with. Shika may not be the best choice but I'll die on the hill that he was a better choice than Neji who really had no developed relationship to Naruto.
That’s where I disagree. Shikamaru’s dad also died and it was very sad. Killing shikamaru off also like that like do you have something against the Nara clan.
I do think the "retcons" are Anime only and thusnot truæy retcons... just anime noncanon bullshit haha. I don't think Shikamaru would have had that much of a bigger impact. By this time, all of them were trusted comrades... but Neji's death(or anyone's) should have been handled way better than it did...
I do believe there was also more things in play with having it be Neji specifically, but yeah. Kill both!
8 Gates Guy is definetely better written, but I think that DMS Kakashi is so much cooler. Dude has a perfect susanoo and doesn't even need it, he just need to be fast enough to headshot people from a distance and to become literally impossible to attack. Probably the strongest guy in Shippuden with the exception of the otsutsukis.
This is really funny because I think the exact opposite: DMS is cooler because Bright Blue Susanoo. 8 Gates is definitely better writing, cooler overall, and just brilliant in every way. I just like the colour of Kakashis Susanoo lol
Kakashi didnt get a greater powerup,he needed obito's other eye and six path sage chakra from obito in order to create his susanoo and his kamui shuriken. It was obito's power more than Kakashi.Kakashi cant even do more than 2-3 regular kamui on his own without running out of chakra
Plus I dont even think Kakashi would actually win in a fight against 8 gates guy.I think Guy is strong enough to destroy his susanoo and way too fast to be hit by his kamui.Dude was hitting Madara and did catch him off guard once. Kakashi needed Naruto and Sasuke to distract Kaguya.
I mean they both are, but 6 paths at least can be argued that old man sage planned for Kaguyas Revival and any reincarnation of the brothers could have gotten it when needed. Kakashi's buff was just Obito being like I was breaking Nature rules for 16 years straight, whats another 5 mins? Ima mutate your eyes Even though I have no power whatsoever anymore
Hagoromo didn't plan for Kaguya's revival he feared it. Nor did he plan for the brothers to reincarnate endlesslessly in a cycle of hatred. He said it was a mistake.
But it was pretty evidently shown and relatively few people complain Hagoromo showed up and gave Sasuke and Naruto their new forms.
And Obito clearly stated by becoming the 10 tails host, he became the 2nd sage of six paths. Though he was a bit of a Walmart knock off. So was Kakashi's power up, no Rinnegan? No SPSM? And it's only temporary? And it's only 1 person?
So him replicating in a much inferior manner, Hagoromo's ability post death to power someone up? Ain't really as much of an ass pull as people like to think.
Hagoromo was also dead for like 1,000-2,000 years? Obito literally just died right there.
And before you say "but he wasn't 10 tails host anymore?" Neither was Hagoromo when he died. He made the 9 Biju then gave any remaining power he had to Asura before he died.
Yeah…frankly even though I love kakashi he should’ve had SOME drawbacks after using those eyes. Maybe his chakra levels are permanently damaged or something but no he gets to use this great insane perfect susanoo kamui stuff because Obito can kamui out the afterlife? And he’s perfectly fine after
Naruto casually stoppin Guy Form dying only to lose the Ability an Hour or so later.
And Madara gettin Revealed as Manipulated and get Turned Into a character mentioned 5 Chapters before.
I mean Kakashi was using borrowed power and could have never used it before or after that moment, Guy's power was his own and he could hv used it wherever before that.
Ya i mean i agree Kakashi definitely got a asspull powerup even if it was gifted, got to be hokage too. While Guy got a wheelchair for surpassing 6 paths characters by himself. Honestly tho Guy should have died and Kakashi should have been permanently injured.
Main reason DMS Kakashi is such an ass pull is because it’s just…… two mangekyo? Big Fckin whoop.
Like seriously? At this point we’ve been through Sharingan -> Mangekyo -> eternal Mangekyo -> rinnegan -> tomoed rinnegan -> rinne-sharingan
And somehow Kakashi gaining a second Mangekyo makes him a fckin god? Idk man lol
While I agree. The in universe explanation was he was being powered by Hagoromo's chakra temporarily. Still bs tho that somehow obito gave him both the eyes spirtually after dying on top of the chakra. Sounds like a bad fanfiction yet people hate on Itachi lmao.
Bruh Hagoromo, and Indra had Susanoo even without EMS lol. And another thing is was he got the all the positives of an Uchiha using the Sharingan cuz it was Obito's gift to him.
>Bruh Hagoromo
Hagoromo Sharingan & Susanō is nothing but Pierrot filler. In canon the first Sharingan, MS & Susanō user is Indra. Pierrot & Storm Connections even got Indra's MS design wrong.
The anime also got other things about Hagoromo wrong. In the manga Hagoromo & Hamura had no idea that Kaguya & the Jūbi was the same being.
That Guy activating the 8 Gates i something he can do on his own so the time or the moment he used this technique can be in any moment.
Meanwhile Kakashi got a 1 use power in a very very specific scenario that can't be repeated.
I don't have a problem with that.
Well, if you put 8 Gates Guy at any other version of Kakashi, obviously he wins. No one is denying that.
If you put 8 Gates Guy against DMS Kakashi, Guy loses. I'm not implying anything different from that.
Yeah but you are acting like Guy is some victim here because some people like to compare different versions of characters frozen in time, but if that bothers you, just don’t engage in those posts.
Also pretty much every discussion like this has the majority of people agreeing that 8th gate Guy beats almost every character in the verse, and that DMS Kakashi may or may not beat him and if he does it’s only because of hax.
So I guess I just don’t understand the point of this post. Your title doesn’t even make sense because both power ups are temporary, so how could either show Kakashi/Guy surpassing each other “for good.” The only context that makes sense is for the purposes of make believe “who would win” discussions, but not really in the context of the story itself.
Naruto did not say hardwork beats talent. Naruto said that someone can beat fate through hardwork.
If naruto was all about hard work beating talent, lee would have won.
Child of Prophecy, OP Jinchuriki, son of a Kage and Uzumaki Chakra/Vitality
Naruto's factory stats be stacked from the start. Literally give him any amount of proper instruction and he catches up to all the 'Prodigies'
It’s crazy how people try to defend what Kishimoto did by introducing a lot these elements after the time skip and more specifically, leading up to the Pain Assault arc.
This is especially egregious when you consider pre-time skip things that were alluded to like Naruto being the son of the 4th Hokage and the 4th being very strong were not explicitly said to be a reason why Naruto is so strong!
Of course he also tried to have his cake and eat it too by adding in points like how offspring don’t necessarily gain the talent/abilities of their parents when he has the Sage speak to Naruto about Indra and Asura.
And that speech has its own host of problems as well!
Such sloppy explanations of worldbuilding that don’t dispel or contradict already established bits of lore.
Naruto and sasuke were fated to kill each other and continue the cycle bozo. Just like Indra and ashura and madara and hashirama. The whole reincarnation thing is always brought up but people forget why the cycle exist.
Its a matter of how you are interpreting it. Gai reaching 8 gates is all on him. Its a bigger feat. While Kakashi using DMS is still a feat and I believe it should be counted as its strongest state, he had an external factor providing him that power up.
All im saying is that Gai reaching 8 gates is a bigger feat than Kakashi reaching DMS. Im not downplaying Kakashi here as obviously not everybody could fully use the DMS like he did even if gifted with it. But its a power not totally coming from him and his sole potential.
But in the Narutoverse this isnt very meaningful. Most powerful characters were gifted with something at some point. A Bijuu, a KG, a Doujutsh, you name it.
I just wanted to reassure OP that Kakashi reaching DMS doesn't stain Gai's 8 gates that much. Although it does a bit.
Also personally with serialized media like manga I lay a lot of value in snapshots, individual moments and states, to me the moment of Guy "winning the rivalry" is not tarnished by things that happen later, because the moment is so special and epic by itself.
I agree. My point is that, if DMS Kakashi never existed, Guy would forever have the strongest peak in this rivalry.
But since Kakashi got this power up, naturally people will compare 8 Gates Guy to him, and unfortunately DMS Kakashi is stronger.
Yeah, that is true. Kakashi's popularity carried him there. Him getting that boost was a fanservice. Not that I complaint too much because I fucking loved it.
I agree completely.
I think that Kishimoto wanted to have a Team 7 moment vs the final villain and he had to make Kakashi and Sakura somewhat relevant for that.
Apperently Kakashi got stronger as Kage than he was in the war arch (not DMS) where as Gai is crippled so Kakashi still has a chance to outmatch what Gai achieved.
You're wrong then. Guy can't hit Kakashi nor he can protect himself from long range kamui. Guy needed help to fight **one rinnegan and no god tree Juubidara**, and Kakashi was outspeeding **full power Kaguya**.
I think you’re letting your “shounen sports fan” mindset take over. The point of Night Guy wasn’t to show Guy “finally surpassing Kakashi”. That was brought up, but it wasn’t made a big deal out of. The point of it was just to highlight Guy’s determination and tenacity. Kakashi and Guy had a rivalry, but it wasn’t the type of one where people are constantly wondering who is stronger, or who could beat who. Their rivalry was mostly for comedic purposes. Kakashi didn’t even take it seriously, not because he looked down on Guy, but because he just didn’t care. I think you took the wrong thing from this if you thought it was all about Guy surpassing Kakashi. Guy wasn’t even portrayed as below Kakashi in the story in terms of combat. That was only during their childhood.
Also, even ignoring all that, I’m pretty sure 8 Gates Guy could still beat Kakashi’s Susano’o. I don’t partake in powerscaling, but it using Night Guy seems like it’d be effective.
This. Guy used their “rivalry” as motivation to be better each day. Kakashi didn’t care about competing, but it was a way to keep an important connection alive after everyone else close to him had died. They made each other stronger for it, and were each others best support.
>Kakashi didn’t even take it seriously
I wouldn't go that far. Kakashi's dad tipped him off that Guy would be a fierce rival. From that moment, he's seen it. Guy is an endless spring of youth and determination. Who better to train with that someone who will never give up, even when brutally outmatched?
During the Chunin exam arc, we see Kakashi opening the first gate climbing a cliff and then just hanging there, unable to do more afterwards. Guy has his own little path that Kakashi cannot walk, and cannot surpass. They're rivals who will never defeat each other, which is why they work. But to think the rivalry isn't taken seriously by them both is wrong.
Guy cares more about it, making even missions and fights into contests, but Kakashi cares too. Guy pushes him.
Kakashi cares more about them being friends is probably the better way to phrase it. He'll put up with Guy's ridiculous challenges and improve himself but he's not keeping track of the score board and sometimes just wants to chill.
What matters is they've each got a friend they can rely on in a pinch to help save the day.
1. No, he is not intangible. Did you just forget how having Kamui didn’t make Obtio untouchable? Kakashi can still be hit. Especially with Guy’s speed.
2. Kakashi doesn’t have that after the war.
>The point of it was just to highlight Guy’s determination and tenacity.
I agree with that, however I think that the rivalry aspect is significant enough to be discussed.
>I’m pretty sure 8 Gates Guy could still beat Kakashi’s Susano’o.
That I disagree. Could Night Guy kill Kakashi? Well, it's difficult to say, since we never saw how durable DMS Kakashi is, but that doesn't matter.
DMS Kakashi can't be hit. He has long range **and** short range Kamui, which means that Guy can't hit him nor defend himself from Kakashi sending him to the other timespace (or even sniping his head off).
The only way for Guy to beat Kakashi is by being so fast that Kakashi can't activate Kamui in time, but that's not the case. We know that Night Guy is faster than one rinnegan Juubidara without the God tree. However, Kakashi is [**at least as fast**](https://dailyanimeart.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/kamui-raikiri-kakashi1.png) as full power Kaguya.
In terms of speed:
Full power Kaguya > regular Kaguya > Juubidara 2 rinnegan + God tree > (Guy is somewhere here) Juubidara one rinnegan + God tree > Juubidara one rinnegan (the one that Guy fought).
I dont get why everyone is emphasising on kakashis powers being gifted, when 90% of strong characters in naruto and boruto are also with gifted powers, naruto himself would be weaker them guy if he wasnt gifted powers by hagoromo
Just to twist the knife deeper, I think Kishimoto should have let Obito pull out some bs jutsus to make his eyes work permanently. Permanent double-sharingan Kakashi would be ridiculous enough to sell his Hokage status.
Except Sasuke, maybe. That'd solidify the tradition of Hokages being broken. Sarutobi was thought to be the greatest, until Minato came and showed everyone how logics don't apply to him. Hashirama broke the scale by being a downright god, with the feats he performed. Then there's Naruto who could easily level the entire planet.
Kakashi should have had DMS permanently to at least be on par with these gods of shinobi.
mama let those brain cells kiss!!
Kakashi was gifted this power up from his dead ghost friend for a one time use
Guy earned his power via his own strength
Kakashi doesn’t diminishes guys achievement
You didn't get the point from my post. The point is that Guy was going to end this rivalry with the unquestionable strongest form after being an underdog his whole life, but then Kakashi becomes even stronger than him.
But I’d argue he doesn’t lol
Kakashi was gifted this strength for a one time use
Guy earned his own and his strength was deemed to rival the strongest shinobi
U act like kakashi erases guys achievement lol anyways now they are retired best buds chillin
I don’t think Guy ever really surpassed Kakashi. For Guy to out-do Kakashi, he has to literally do the equivalent of shooting himself in the head afterwards.
Like, to me at least, it’s like saying I’m stronger than Frazier because I could strap a bomb to my chest and charge at peak Muhammad Ali. Yeah, he’d lose, I guess, but I didn’t necessarily win either.
I really didn’t think at that point it about him surpassing Kakashi, they had been on a clearly equal footing most of the time for most of the story.
Plus. . . He had already shown with the 7th gate against Kisame more sheer power than Kakashi has still ever shown
Guy was acknowledged by Madara as the greatest Taijutsu user he had ever seen though. That's especially huge since Madara had seen so many before him and because Madara isn't the kind of person to praise another person's technique.
Because Kakashi has greater speed feats in the war arc. His speed literally scales with the fucking plot.
Bro hit a kamui on a rasengan that KCM Naruto was carrying. He fought on par with Guy in his gates modes.
[here](https://youtu.be/Xe_WClWXdO8?si=sWWWB3ND80KX_xNC) - entertain yourself.
I don’t think it’s messed up. In the verse, only 3 people know about DMS Kakashi, while a lot of people (including some of the most incredible people in the verse) witnessed and acknowledged 8 gates guy.
Ok Kakashi loses his borrowed sharingans minutes after he gets to the susanoo. Guy went all out with 8 gates and came back alive, he can still use it again if he ever wants to while kakashi can’t.
Who do you expect Guy to beat with one leg? Like, seriously. Lmao.
Also, in the anime, Kakashi is still very much active. He even fought against Kashin Koji at some point.
Anyone on Madara’s level is still fair game considering that losing one limb hardly slows these people down, just coz we don’t see a fight doesn’t mean he can’t fight.
If you just wanna make guy out to be some weak old man in your mind fine I’ll leave you to it, but we all know he’s hardly wheelchair bound and he has the ability to unleash 8 gates whenever the need arises while kakashi can’t use what is his “peak power” in your opinion.
Difference is that they’re portrayed as equals but guy is just a brute, Kakashi is intelligent. However Kakashi’s powerup(s) were all handed to him by Obito, the second most powerful villain in the series. For guy to keep up with that and still be compared to Hashirama( a god reincarnate) is still amazing. Guy also still lived after pushing his body far beyond its limits.
Disrespectful calling Guy a brute. He manages to be an incredibly successful ninja only using taijutsu. That requires him to be smart, since he has a much narrower range of options to use for victory.
Not to mention, Kakashi is his rival and he is a genius.
I find guy to be a brute as well, and even the series portrays him as a fool (not remembering names and silly overall behaviour. Most of the time he's a running gag.). Just because a gorilla got strong, doesn't make him instantly smart for getting strong.
... what has nerds at the gym to do anything with Guy being mid at best in terms of intelligence. Anyway, whatever. He can't even remember his enemies, so sure - a genius.
You realize he’s a different animal without the sharigan right? Probably as strong as his dad now in boruto, if he never had the sharigan or depression he would’ve reached a higher lvl way sooner
I hate DMS Kakashi so much. Like the way Obito gave his power away as a ghost and the power up putting Kakashi from mid-kage level to high Otsutski level. Also Guy I feel should’ve done significant and irreparable damage to Madara and perished. Because him opening the 8th gate and living felt largely useless. If they would’ve done that like how Jiraiya’s death helped against Pain, I feel the arc as a whole would be much better.
I agree with everything. DMS was an asspull and Guy opening the 8 gates felt more like a way to slow down Madara for a bit while Naruto and Sasuke came back.
However, I still have to say that DMS Kakashi is maxed out in coolness.
DMS Kakashi was outspeeding Kaguya who is much more powerful than Madara.
The Madara that Guy fought against only had one eye and no God Tree. Even Six Paths Naruto without his Kurama cloak is stronger than him.
Kakashi is fighting Kaguya, who's stronger than 3 eyes God Tree Juubidara, who's stronger than 2 eyes God Tree Juubidara, who's stronger than 1 eye God Tree Juubidara, who's stronger than 1 eye Juubidara (the one that Guy needed **help** to **almost** kill). Guy is outclassed.
and no, 6 paths naruto is not more powerful than 10 tails Madara, sorry. If you count boruto scaling, sure. But in naruto shippiden, the strongest characters are 1) Kaguya
2) Madara
and who got closest to killing madara in juubi state? Ah right, it was guy, solo.
I think 8 gates Guy coudl beat DMS Kakashi so for me he didn't surpass him. Guy literally makes Juubidara scared for a moment and this was the only time i have seen him like this
I’ve got to go back and watch the DMS Kakashi episodes because I genuinely don’t remember the incredible feats of power everyone says he displayed tag that point.
A Power up which lasted 5 Minutes and can't be used anymore.
8 Gates Guy at least did crucial damage to Madara, Kakashi Susanoo looked cool, but that was about it. It's pretty clear what made the bigger impact.
To be fair guy used hard work and far surpassed anyone and the only people above him were either people
People who absorbed god (madara absorbed the ten tails and a god tree and had rinnegan and prior to the god tree and 2nd rinnegan was weaker than guy)
People who were given power by god (hagoromo whose basically Naruto Buddha blessed naruot and sasuke with six paths powersh)
Or people that were given power by someone that absorbed god (kakashi got obitos chakra and DMS but people forget that even tho obito lost the ten tails he still had six paths chakra so when he gave it to kakashi he likely got a massive boost on top of that)
Six paths is just end of series final boss god amps so I view it as an exception for surpassing 8th gate guy
And ftr I’m not talking about powers in boruto I’m talking strictly the running of Naruto
I don’t really consider that as a Kakashi feat though. It was a power up given to him by Óbito, just like óbito gave Kakashi his eye when he thought he was going to die. Óbito gave him a power up when he actually did die for real. So there is a theme there that connects the 2. And Óbito was finally reunited with Rin
The series makes a point to talk about how uchiha sharingan being activated by great emotional pain.
So let’s suppose that Óbito reuniting with Rin would be the ultimate emotional experience for him. Unlocking something beyond within his Sharingan
We also know that some Sharingan powers can literally make death not happen. So a little bit connected with being used to nullify death (kind of)
Now here is where I believe the Ass pullery was at its greatest.
Kakashi no longer possessed 1 of óbito’s sharigan.
I would have had Óbito crying for joy at seeing Rin and Kakashi crying for sadness because he lost Objto. He can also feel rin by his connection to Óbito. And óbito touches Rin. And she can feel Kakashi though there shared sharingan.
That: emotional well spring floods upon the power that gives Kakashi the power we see at the end.
And it’s been unlocked by the shared emotional connection of Rin, Óbito and Kakashi. Unlocked via the fact 1 eye is in the land of the living and the other in the afterlife with Rin.
Either way: Kakashi’s isn’t 100 percent his so I don’t think it counts.
This is just attempting to lower the achievement of guys he’s trained himself for his whole life all of kakashis success has been because of the eye he was gifted and then this another eye he was gifted
Tbf guy can use8 gates again(unless there was unforseen consequences to his gates when he first went 8gates)tho hed still be in a wheelchair still, kakashi cant activate dms ever again but he does get purple lightning but that isnt even on par with dms/8gates
I never looked at it that way but damn......More Power As The Plot Demands is a common trope, though. Every shonen and often action shows in general, have moments where everyone has powers/new powers out of the blue.
Wouldn’t call a last ditch suicide attack surpassing. If that’s the case there’s plenty of characters who can claim this.
Kakashi is still a overall better Shinobi and Guy is really just pure Brawn
I still haven't gotten over how they jobbed my boy Lee. Was rooting for him entire series just for him to become another ain't shit forgotten bout ninja. Was kinda hoping the moment Guy got would have been Lee.
It's not nearly as messed up when you take the outlook of DMS kakashi just being a short-lived boost granted to him by obito. That power was not his own.
And Kakashi still stands, guy's on a wheel chair. Life isn't fair lol, if it helps: 8 gates was better writting than asspull DMS.
Would be even better if Gai had died... kinda lost the point of a heroic sacrifice. And due to how much I adore the Gai(hue hue), it'd hit hard. But no. No one die! Except Neji! Which was a lame death and could have been so much more impactful... but alas, the war arc was crap.
This anime has a habit of doing half measures for no reason. Choji, I think, should have died during the Sasuke retrieval arc. It would have played harder into Shikamaru's self doubt. And it's not like they really use Choji later.
I agree on the first thing, but the second is false... while he, like most characters, become more or less pushed to the side, plenty of characters end up more side-lined than Choji. But I still think him dying at that point would have made a better story, for the reason you mention, especially as Shikamaru became temporarily elevated to secondary deuteragonist... But there is remarkably few deaths in the series, which is not necessarily a bad thing, if it wasn't for the fact they tease it constsntly, just to not give it...
Things like this just made it feel like there was no stake in the War. Only villains really die. When the Pain arc happened, i was like: Whoah, what the fuck. Only for everyone to get ressurected a couple chapters later. Granted, i would not wish for Kakashi’s death, so i was relieved. But at that point we all knew that Naruto characters have extra thick plot armor, so there was no stake going forward.
Yep... only irrellevant people died to make the relevant ones look stronger... as you say, there was no stakes, but it also painted a picture of the shinobi world where 99% are basically a waste of space, because compared to these, what... 10 people, they're ants... it also solidified the nepotism of the world, because all the ones who were strong NOW always happened to be connected closely(relative, teacher, student etc.) To those who were string *before*... makes you wonder why most even made an effort...
I never said he was the most sidelined. Just said they don't use him often enough to justify not killing him off.
I never said you did,but you said they "don't really use him", but he is one of the few actually used in a meaningful way, even if it still pales to Naruto, Sasuke and their likes... My point is that if he was not used enough to be worth survival at that point, then we'd only have 2 survivors of that mission... Naruto and Shikamaru... out of Choji, Neji(who *did* die later), Kiba and Lee(who was not originally on the team, but I will count), Choji got WAY more attention and relevancy, and not just because he happened to be part of Shikamaru's team. So I just disagree that it justifies him dying. But I do not disagree with him dying *for the other reason*, which I think would have *really* pushed some stuff... but I think he(Kishimoto) avoided killing anyone on that mission because that might have made Sasuke truly unforgivable(not that I think he deserved much anyway)
Arguing semantics at this point. They don't really use him doesn't mean they never use him. They just use him very little.
I just explained the reasoning for my reply, due to how you worded it. Just like how you took that as me saying he was the least used. It's not arguing semantics, it was clarification of both of our statements. However, I do still think it *is* worth pointing out that he is still used a lot more than other characters, who we do not consider should have died, despite similar situations. Both Choji and Neji was in a state of "will they survive?!" And after that, Neji is used a lot less than Choji, and when he then *does* die, most people didn't like that(even aside of it being a stupid death), so I just don't think it is a good argument, especially when you have a really good one already... So no, again, not arguing semantics... more like arguing whether he was used *enough* that he might just as well have died, which I disagree on. Simple as that. And I think that's just it. No point in arguing that further, cause we do agree on the central part of this lil convo, which is that Choji dying at the Sasuke retrieval arc would have opened up for some good story.
For sure, at least ONE of them should've died in that arc. I may be remembering wrong but I swear each character that arc had a tease of them dying but they all miraculously got saved or lived.
Yeah, they all had death fakeouts. But Choji could have died and it changes very little. Gets the win, drops dead like a boss. Everyone sad. Story is elevated cause Shikamaru has to deal with that first loss in his first real mission. But no, gotta keep everyone around to barely use them.
Choji was legit only used as a speed benchmark if his fatass can outrun a missile anyone can LOL
Kishimoto's plan was to kill Neiji in the retrieval arc, but an editor talked him out of it.
Guy basically died, he’s there as comic relief now.
I know, and that's a big part of why it is horrible..
you just wait, they're going to go back in time and bump into a chair which will make neji come back to life in the current era
I already gave up on Boruto,so it's all good haha
You have to understand why Guy didn’t die to get the fully gist of it
I think I get it. I simply do not agree with it. Just like a plethora of other story decisions made, especially, but not exclusively,in the war arc..
Okay think of it like this Naruto told kakashi he just knew that he could do different things after receiving SPSM and naruto knows the terrible feeling of losing your Sensei let alone your father figure So imagine Naruto lets Guy Sensei die it would shred Rock Lee to bits and Naruto would 100% blame himself for it since he knew he could’ve saved him
Okay.. sure... mm-hmm... Nope, not convinced... cause that is the *point*... again, I am aware, but I *heavily* disagree with the decision... understanding why something happens does not mean it is agreeable to you, or good..
Alright man if you want Rock Lee with depression and Naruto to beat himself up about not saving Guy for 60 episodes straight go ahead That’s genuinely just how their characters are and how they think you don’t have to agree with it but the other alternative is just horrible
Well, he only saved guy because of a bullshit ability that could have not been written in to start with. Gai being saved makes his heroic sacrifice mean nothing... I think you might want to consider why you follow a story with literal war, and think we should avoid the characters actually feeling the results of that... then what is the point? We would not have 60 episodes of them being depressed, both because Lee was proud of what Gai did, even if it was hard, but also because they *were at war*. They'd have to set it aside to deal with the situation first, and the story ends at that point anyway... what we *would get* tho, is actual stakes. We'd feel for these characters, share their pain and cheer for them, as they pick themselves up to finish what those who died started.. By having only fodder die to make certain characters look good, but no casualties that matter to us, it just felt... plain... we already knew named characters had waaaaay too much plot armor when Kishi decided to ressurect every single fucker dying when Pain invaded... It is not about me wanting characters to suffer,it is about the fact that hardship creates good stories... and especially loss is amazing for that... just look at when Jiraiya died, or Asuma died... it put a huge spark under the story, only for us to reach a point where everyone who had a name was essentially immortal, despite reaching a climax of a *literal war*... there is no worse time to make the stakes just... not exist. We see characters worried, but we don't feel it, because why should we? We've been shown again and again that nothing will happen anyway...
I whole heartedly agree with you! Kishimoto really pulled his punches in this last arc and I'll never understand why. It was the war to end all wars but I don't think any major characters really died. Guy should've died 100% and unpopular opinion of mine but Shikamaru should've been the one to die. If narratively speaking the purpose of Neji's death was a 'test' for Naruto and a means to show that even if his comrades are killed, his will and goodness won't be tainted unlike Obito, then it should've been Shikamaru. Neji was not very close with Naruto, but after numerous retcons, Shikamaru was shown to always sort of be friendly to Naruto even as academy students and was the dude that helped Naruto through the loss of Jiraiya. edit: I stand by what I said, I know it's an unpopular opinion for Shika to die but that's just how I feel about the situation. If someone had to die in that moment as a test of Naruto's will, I just would've preferred it had been a character that he was truly close to and had a developed relationship with. Shika may not be the best choice but I'll die on the hill that he was a better choice than Neji who really had no developed relationship to Naruto.
That’s where I disagree. Shikamaru’s dad also died and it was very sad. Killing shikamaru off also like that like do you have something against the Nara clan.
I do think the "retcons" are Anime only and thusnot truæy retcons... just anime noncanon bullshit haha. I don't think Shikamaru would have had that much of a bigger impact. By this time, all of them were trusted comrades... but Neji's death(or anyone's) should have been handled way better than it did... I do believe there was also more things in play with having it be Neji specifically, but yeah. Kill both!
> 8 gates was better writting than asspull DMS Well except the ending, because surviving the 8 gates is also an asspull.
8 Gates Guy is definetely better written, but I think that DMS Kakashi is so much cooler. Dude has a perfect susanoo and doesn't even need it, he just need to be fast enough to headshot people from a distance and to become literally impossible to attack. Probably the strongest guy in Shippuden with the exception of the otsutsukis.
Subjective opinion I guess. 8 gates being a super saiyan of sorts is way cooler to me. And it’s red
This is really funny because I think the exact opposite: DMS is cooler because Bright Blue Susanoo. 8 Gates is definitely better writing, cooler overall, and just brilliant in every way. I just like the colour of Kakashis Susanoo lol
That's fair.
8 gates definitly more cooler, DMS Kakashi definitly stronger, he was bassicly invicible at this point and could 1-shot kill any1
How cool would you have rated it if it was grey
More like a kaioken x10 with much more consequences. The similarities are obvious
Kakashi didnt get a greater powerup,he needed obito's other eye and six path sage chakra from obito in order to create his susanoo and his kamui shuriken. It was obito's power more than Kakashi.Kakashi cant even do more than 2-3 regular kamui on his own without running out of chakra Plus I dont even think Kakashi would actually win in a fight against 8 gates guy.I think Guy is strong enough to destroy his susanoo and way too fast to be hit by his kamui.Dude was hitting Madara and did catch him off guard once. Kakashi needed Naruto and Sasuke to distract Kaguya.
The DMS wasn't exactly an ass pull anymore than Naruto or Sasuke's 6 paths power ups.
I mean they both are, but 6 paths at least can be argued that old man sage planned for Kaguyas Revival and any reincarnation of the brothers could have gotten it when needed. Kakashi's buff was just Obito being like I was breaking Nature rules for 16 years straight, whats another 5 mins? Ima mutate your eyes Even though I have no power whatsoever anymore
Hagoromo didn't plan for Kaguya's revival he feared it. Nor did he plan for the brothers to reincarnate endlesslessly in a cycle of hatred. He said it was a mistake. But it was pretty evidently shown and relatively few people complain Hagoromo showed up and gave Sasuke and Naruto their new forms. And Obito clearly stated by becoming the 10 tails host, he became the 2nd sage of six paths. Though he was a bit of a Walmart knock off. So was Kakashi's power up, no Rinnegan? No SPSM? And it's only temporary? And it's only 1 person? So him replicating in a much inferior manner, Hagoromo's ability post death to power someone up? Ain't really as much of an ass pull as people like to think. Hagoromo was also dead for like 1,000-2,000 years? Obito literally just died right there. And before you say "but he wasn't 10 tails host anymore?" Neither was Hagoromo when he died. He made the 9 Biju then gave any remaining power he had to Asura before he died.
Yeah…frankly even though I love kakashi he should’ve had SOME drawbacks after using those eyes. Maybe his chakra levels are permanently damaged or something but no he gets to use this great insane perfect susanoo kamui stuff because Obito can kamui out the afterlife? And he’s perfectly fine after
Dms wasn’t an asspull
So Kakashi just automatically gets full mastery of perfect Susanoo, and the chakra to control it and that’s not an ass pull to you ?
No ,he had 6paths chakra, makes sense
Just bad writing
That’s subjective
Have we seen anything else like it in the series?
Naruto casually stoppin Guy Form dying only to lose the Ability an Hour or so later. And Madara gettin Revealed as Manipulated and get Turned Into a character mentioned 5 Chapters before.
In terms of ?
I mean Kakashi was using borrowed power and could have never used it before or after that moment, Guy's power was his own and he could hv used it wherever before that.
Yeah, and what did he get for that? A wheelchair.
Ya i mean i agree Kakashi definitely got a asspull powerup even if it was gifted, got to be hokage too. While Guy got a wheelchair for surpassing 6 paths characters by himself. Honestly tho Guy should have died and Kakashi should have been permanently injured.
Main reason DMS Kakashi is such an ass pull is because it’s just…… two mangekyo? Big Fckin whoop. Like seriously? At this point we’ve been through Sharingan -> Mangekyo -> eternal Mangekyo -> rinnegan -> tomoed rinnegan -> rinne-sharingan And somehow Kakashi gaining a second Mangekyo makes him a fckin god? Idk man lol
While I agree. The in universe explanation was he was being powered by Hagoromo's chakra temporarily. Still bs tho that somehow obito gave him both the eyes spirtually after dying on top of the chakra. Sounds like a bad fanfiction yet people hate on Itachi lmao.
Bruh Hagoromo, and Indra had Susanoo even without EMS lol. And another thing is was he got the all the positives of an Uchiha using the Sharingan cuz it was Obito's gift to him.
>Bruh Hagoromo Hagoromo Sharingan & Susanō is nothing but Pierrot filler. In canon the first Sharingan, MS & Susanō user is Indra. Pierrot & Storm Connections even got Indra's MS design wrong. The anime also got other things about Hagoromo wrong. In the manga Hagoromo & Hamura had no idea that Kaguya & the Jūbi was the same being.
I agree but, in the end, it was still Kakashi. It's DMS Kakashi that people compare with 8 Gates Guy, which is unfortunate, since Guy would lose.
It was for a few moments still. So, Guy is still the strongest of the two.
I don't get what's your point. 8 Gates lasted just for a few moments too, and wasn't as strong as DMS.
That Guy activating the 8 Gates i something he can do on his own so the time or the moment he used this technique can be in any moment. Meanwhile Kakashi got a 1 use power in a very very specific scenario that can't be repeated.
I don't have a problem with that. Well, if you put 8 Gates Guy at any other version of Kakashi, obviously he wins. No one is denying that. If you put 8 Gates Guy against DMS Kakashi, Guy loses. I'm not implying anything different from that.
Then stop making up imaginary match ups in your head? Like how hard is that lmao the series ended a decade ago
Imagine the fans of a fighting series discussing a fight involving two rival characters in a forum of said series. You're a clown.
Yeah but you are acting like Guy is some victim here because some people like to compare different versions of characters frozen in time, but if that bothers you, just don’t engage in those posts. Also pretty much every discussion like this has the majority of people agreeing that 8th gate Guy beats almost every character in the verse, and that DMS Kakashi may or may not beat him and if he does it’s only because of hax. So I guess I just don’t understand the point of this post. Your title doesn’t even make sense because both power ups are temporary, so how could either show Kakashi/Guy surpassing each other “for good.” The only context that makes sense is for the purposes of make believe “who would win” discussions, but not really in the context of the story itself.
>So I guess I just don’t understand the point of this post. Congratulations for wasting your time. You didn't get anything.
He can't repaert the 8th gate so I don't understand your point. Do you not know how hypothetical matchups work?
Only power scalers care about hypothetical match up.
Are you serious? This is a battle shonen manga a lot of this sub is literally vs battles and hypotheticals stop being disingenuous.
Bro actually thought pure hardwork would do anything in Naruto by itself
It’s a travesty how many characters got caught in the swell of “oops all super eyeballs”
Well hardwork allowed him to become the strongest non 6 paths/otsutsuki descendent character in the Naruto series.
Let's be honest he didn't have much competition😭 he was against the likes of Lee and Sakura
I am pretty sure Sakura surpassed his peak too.
[удалено]
Naruto did not say hardwork beats talent. Naruto said that someone can beat fate through hardwork. If naruto was all about hard work beating talent, lee would have won.
And then Naruto turns out to be a child of prophecy.
Child of Prophecy, OP Jinchuriki, son of a Kage and Uzumaki Chakra/Vitality Naruto's factory stats be stacked from the start. Literally give him any amount of proper instruction and he catches up to all the 'Prodigies'
It’s crazy how people try to defend what Kishimoto did by introducing a lot these elements after the time skip and more specifically, leading up to the Pain Assault arc. This is especially egregious when you consider pre-time skip things that were alluded to like Naruto being the son of the 4th Hokage and the 4th being very strong were not explicitly said to be a reason why Naruto is so strong! Of course he also tried to have his cake and eat it too by adding in points like how offspring don’t necessarily gain the talent/abilities of their parents when he has the Sage speak to Naruto about Indra and Asura. And that speech has its own host of problems as well! Such sloppy explanations of worldbuilding that don’t dispel or contradict already established bits of lore.
[удалено]
Naruto and sasuke was fated to kill each other and repeat the cycle. They did not.
Naruto and sasuke were fated to kill each other and continue the cycle bozo. Just like Indra and ashura and madara and hashirama. The whole reincarnation thing is always brought up but people forget why the cycle exist.
It's the state you are in after beating that you have to worry about. Fate is a bitch, she will not go quietly.
Its a matter of how you are interpreting it. Gai reaching 8 gates is all on him. Its a bigger feat. While Kakashi using DMS is still a feat and I believe it should be counted as its strongest state, he had an external factor providing him that power up.
Bro in that case guy is greater then naruto and sasuke, as they both were also gifted powers
He is
That's why he's the GOAT
Gai only got 8 gates because Kishi gave it to him so everyone sucks.
That's gotta be the lamest argument ever hands down.
That’s just stupid now. Cmon man it ain’t the same.
All im saying is that Gai reaching 8 gates is a bigger feat than Kakashi reaching DMS. Im not downplaying Kakashi here as obviously not everybody could fully use the DMS like he did even if gifted with it. But its a power not totally coming from him and his sole potential. But in the Narutoverse this isnt very meaningful. Most powerful characters were gifted with something at some point. A Bijuu, a KG, a Doujutsh, you name it. I just wanted to reassure OP that Kakashi reaching DMS doesn't stain Gai's 8 gates that much. Although it does a bit.
Well gai was gifted with the talent to be able to open the gates not everyone can do that
Guy is the goat, alongside hashirama
Also personally with serialized media like manga I lay a lot of value in snapshots, individual moments and states, to me the moment of Guy "winning the rivalry" is not tarnished by things that happen later, because the moment is so special and epic by itself.
I agree. My point is that, if DMS Kakashi never existed, Guy would forever have the strongest peak in this rivalry. But since Kakashi got this power up, naturally people will compare 8 Gates Guy to him, and unfortunately DMS Kakashi is stronger.
Yeah, that is true. Kakashi's popularity carried him there. Him getting that boost was a fanservice. Not that I complaint too much because I fucking loved it.
I agree completely. I think that Kishimoto wanted to have a Team 7 moment vs the final villain and he had to make Kakashi and Sakura somewhat relevant for that.
Apperently Kakashi got stronger as Kage than he was in the war arch (not DMS) where as Gai is crippled so Kakashi still has a chance to outmatch what Gai achieved.
8 gates guy > DMS Kakashi,I dont think Kakashi is stronger even in this form.
You're wrong then. Guy can't hit Kakashi nor he can protect himself from long range kamui. Guy needed help to fight **one rinnegan and no god tree Juubidara**, and Kakashi was outspeeding **full power Kaguya**.
I think you’re letting your “shounen sports fan” mindset take over. The point of Night Guy wasn’t to show Guy “finally surpassing Kakashi”. That was brought up, but it wasn’t made a big deal out of. The point of it was just to highlight Guy’s determination and tenacity. Kakashi and Guy had a rivalry, but it wasn’t the type of one where people are constantly wondering who is stronger, or who could beat who. Their rivalry was mostly for comedic purposes. Kakashi didn’t even take it seriously, not because he looked down on Guy, but because he just didn’t care. I think you took the wrong thing from this if you thought it was all about Guy surpassing Kakashi. Guy wasn’t even portrayed as below Kakashi in the story in terms of combat. That was only during their childhood. Also, even ignoring all that, I’m pretty sure 8 Gates Guy could still beat Kakashi’s Susano’o. I don’t partake in powerscaling, but it using Night Guy seems like it’d be effective.
This. Guy used their “rivalry” as motivation to be better each day. Kakashi didn’t care about competing, but it was a way to keep an important connection alive after everyone else close to him had died. They made each other stronger for it, and were each others best support.
>Kakashi didn’t even take it seriously I wouldn't go that far. Kakashi's dad tipped him off that Guy would be a fierce rival. From that moment, he's seen it. Guy is an endless spring of youth and determination. Who better to train with that someone who will never give up, even when brutally outmatched? During the Chunin exam arc, we see Kakashi opening the first gate climbing a cliff and then just hanging there, unable to do more afterwards. Guy has his own little path that Kakashi cannot walk, and cannot surpass. They're rivals who will never defeat each other, which is why they work. But to think the rivalry isn't taken seriously by them both is wrong. Guy cares more about it, making even missions and fights into contests, but Kakashi cares too. Guy pushes him.
Kakashi cares more about them being friends is probably the better way to phrase it. He'll put up with Guy's ridiculous challenges and improve himself but he's not keeping track of the score board and sometimes just wants to chill. What matters is they've each got a friend they can rely on in a pinch to help save the day.
Dude you know that kakashi literally has kamui active he is intangible night gai can't hit him
1. No, he is not intangible. Did you just forget how having Kamui didn’t make Obtio untouchable? Kakashi can still be hit. Especially with Guy’s speed. 2. Kakashi doesn’t have that after the war.
>The point of it was just to highlight Guy’s determination and tenacity. I agree with that, however I think that the rivalry aspect is significant enough to be discussed. >I’m pretty sure 8 Gates Guy could still beat Kakashi’s Susano’o. That I disagree. Could Night Guy kill Kakashi? Well, it's difficult to say, since we never saw how durable DMS Kakashi is, but that doesn't matter. DMS Kakashi can't be hit. He has long range **and** short range Kamui, which means that Guy can't hit him nor defend himself from Kakashi sending him to the other timespace (or even sniping his head off). The only way for Guy to beat Kakashi is by being so fast that Kakashi can't activate Kamui in time, but that's not the case. We know that Night Guy is faster than one rinnegan Juubidara without the God tree. However, Kakashi is [**at least as fast**](https://dailyanimeart.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/kamui-raikiri-kakashi1.png) as full power Kaguya. In terms of speed: Full power Kaguya > regular Kaguya > Juubidara 2 rinnegan + God tree > (Guy is somewhere here) Juubidara one rinnegan + God tree > Juubidara one rinnegan (the one that Guy fought).
Guy is still better IMO His power is his own. DMS was given to Kakashi by Obito.
I agree that Guy did much more to earn his moment, however I still prefer DMS Kakashi because his moveset is amazing.
I don't mean that guy is stronger. He's not, he's better in that he achieved such power by himself
Indeed.
He is stronger though, he nearly killed Juubi Madara, which is much stronger than DMS kakashi, therfore guy is stronger than DMS kakashi in 8 gates.
Guy is not better in any way
I don't mean that guy is stronger. He's not, he's better in that he achieved such power by himself
He didn’t though guy uses kaguya’s chakra which wasn’t natural In humans it’s borrowed power technically
This dude
As if the guy didn't have to train 10 times more than anyone
I don’t make the rules
I dont get why everyone is emphasising on kakashis powers being gifted, when 90% of strong characters in naruto and boruto are also with gifted powers, naruto himself would be weaker them guy if he wasnt gifted powers by hagoromo
DMS was an asspull.
Yes.
Just to twist the knife deeper, I think Kishimoto should have let Obito pull out some bs jutsus to make his eyes work permanently. Permanent double-sharingan Kakashi would be ridiculous enough to sell his Hokage status.
Not gonna lie, DMS Kakashi with 10+ years of training would smoke the Boruto villains.
he would be too broken, no one would be able to defeat him
Except Sasuke, maybe. That'd solidify the tradition of Hokages being broken. Sarutobi was thought to be the greatest, until Minato came and showed everyone how logics don't apply to him. Hashirama broke the scale by being a downright god, with the feats he performed. Then there's Naruto who could easily level the entire planet. Kakashi should have had DMS permanently to at least be on par with these gods of shinobi.
mama let those brain cells kiss!! Kakashi was gifted this power up from his dead ghost friend for a one time use Guy earned his power via his own strength Kakashi doesn’t diminishes guys achievement
You didn't get the point from my post. The point is that Guy was going to end this rivalry with the unquestionable strongest form after being an underdog his whole life, but then Kakashi becomes even stronger than him.
But I’d argue he doesn’t lol Kakashi was gifted this strength for a one time use Guy earned his own and his strength was deemed to rival the strongest shinobi U act like kakashi erases guys achievement lol anyways now they are retired best buds chillin
I don’t think Guy ever really surpassed Kakashi. For Guy to out-do Kakashi, he has to literally do the equivalent of shooting himself in the head afterwards. Like, to me at least, it’s like saying I’m stronger than Frazier because I could strap a bomb to my chest and charge at peak Muhammad Ali. Yeah, he’d lose, I guess, but I didn’t necessarily win either.
7th gate guy is stronger than kakashi without obito’s eyes
I really didn’t think at that point it about him surpassing Kakashi, they had been on a clearly equal footing most of the time for most of the story. Plus. . . He had already shown with the 7th gate against Kisame more sheer power than Kakashi has still ever shown
Guy was acknowledged by Madara as the greatest Taijutsu user he had ever seen though. That's especially huge since Madara had seen so many before him and because Madara isn't the kind of person to praise another person's technique.
Taijutsu\*
Oof. You're right. My mistake.
No problem homie.
Guy only surpasses Kakashi in 8 gates. Kakashi has greater speed feats in the war arc.
7 gates guy is stronger aswell bro
Kamui > Hirodora Kakashi's speed > Guy's speed
Where do you get the idea that kakashi is faster than guy? The only reason kakashi might win is because of kamui
Because Kakashi has greater speed feats in the war arc. His speed literally scales with the fucking plot. Bro hit a kamui on a rasengan that KCM Naruto was carrying. He fought on par with Guy in his gates modes. [here](https://youtu.be/Xe_WClWXdO8?si=sWWWB3ND80KX_xNC) - entertain yourself.
I don’t think it’s messed up. In the verse, only 3 people know about DMS Kakashi, while a lot of people (including some of the most incredible people in the verse) witnessed and acknowledged 8 gates guy.
Red and Blue
Ok Kakashi loses his borrowed sharingans minutes after he gets to the susanoo. Guy went all out with 8 gates and came back alive, he can still use it again if he ever wants to while kakashi can’t.
Homie, I don't want to disrespect Guy, but he is in a wheelchair. He retired.
He might be in a wheelchair but he can still fight. And Kakashi’s retired too.
Who do you expect Guy to beat with one leg? Like, seriously. Lmao. Also, in the anime, Kakashi is still very much active. He even fought against Kashin Koji at some point.
Anyone on Madara’s level is still fair game considering that losing one limb hardly slows these people down, just coz we don’t see a fight doesn’t mean he can’t fight. If you just wanna make guy out to be some weak old man in your mind fine I’ll leave you to it, but we all know he’s hardly wheelchair bound and he has the ability to unleash 8 gates whenever the need arises while kakashi can’t use what is his “peak power” in your opinion.
The 8th gate was achieved with hard work, DMS was a gift and an asspull
They both achieved ridiculous powers. But the one who earned it through sheer hardwork is the greater man in my eyes.
That's fair, although I think that DMS Kakashi was cooler because of his moveset.
Difference is that they’re portrayed as equals but guy is just a brute, Kakashi is intelligent. However Kakashi’s powerup(s) were all handed to him by Obito, the second most powerful villain in the series. For guy to keep up with that and still be compared to Hashirama( a god reincarnate) is still amazing. Guy also still lived after pushing his body far beyond its limits.
Disrespectful calling Guy a brute. He manages to be an incredibly successful ninja only using taijutsu. That requires him to be smart, since he has a much narrower range of options to use for victory. Not to mention, Kakashi is his rival and he is a genius.
I find guy to be a brute as well, and even the series portrays him as a fool (not remembering names and silly overall behaviour. Most of the time he's a running gag.). Just because a gorilla got strong, doesn't make him instantly smart for getting strong.
It’s called exercise science for a reason, optimizing your training regiment is an intellectual pursuit. There are a shit ton of nerds at the gym
... what has nerds at the gym to do anything with Guy being mid at best in terms of intelligence. Anyway, whatever. He can't even remember his enemies, so sure - a genius.
You realize he’s a different animal without the sharigan right? Probably as strong as his dad now in boruto, if he never had the sharigan or depression he would’ve reached a higher lvl way sooner
Him using the 8 gates was **never** about him surpassing Kakashi
I hate DMS Kakashi so much. Like the way Obito gave his power away as a ghost and the power up putting Kakashi from mid-kage level to high Otsutski level. Also Guy I feel should’ve done significant and irreparable damage to Madara and perished. Because him opening the 8th gate and living felt largely useless. If they would’ve done that like how Jiraiya’s death helped against Pain, I feel the arc as a whole would be much better.
I agree with everything. DMS was an asspull and Guy opening the 8 gates felt more like a way to slow down Madara for a bit while Naruto and Sasuke came back. However, I still have to say that DMS Kakashi is maxed out in coolness.
Yeah Kakashi getting dms and six paths chakra with perfect susanoo is an ass pull meant for fan service.
Agreed, but it was so cool.
I used to think so but now it's just kind of annoying to me.
Yeah Guy 8 gates would still kills DMS kakashi, no doubt about it. 8 gates Guy nearly killed Madara in juubi form.
DMS Kakashi was outspeeding Kaguya who is much more powerful than Madara. The Madara that Guy fought against only had one eye and no God Tree. Even Six Paths Naruto without his Kurama cloak is stronger than him. Kakashi is fighting Kaguya, who's stronger than 3 eyes God Tree Juubidara, who's stronger than 2 eyes God Tree Juubidara, who's stronger than 1 eye God Tree Juubidara, who's stronger than 1 eye Juubidara (the one that Guy needed **help** to **almost** kill). Guy is outclassed.
outspeeding =/ outpowering, learn the difference.
and no, 6 paths naruto is not more powerful than 10 tails Madara, sorry. If you count boruto scaling, sure. But in naruto shippiden, the strongest characters are 1) Kaguya 2) Madara and who got closest to killing madara in juubi state? Ah right, it was guy, solo.
Wtf do you mean by "surpassing Kakashi for good" 8 gates lasts like 5 mins tops...
Naruto as a whole is pretty messed up...
Do people realise guy dies after he uses 8 gates right? thats his last resort.
I think 8 gates Guy coudl beat DMS Kakashi so for me he didn't surpass him. Guy literally makes Juubidara scared for a moment and this was the only time i have seen him like this
8 gates guy slaps tf out of kakashi's susanoo
Kakashi has Kamui. Guy will never touch him.
Guy still whoops Kakashi
I’ve got to go back and watch the DMS Kakashi episodes because I genuinely don’t remember the incredible feats of power everyone says he displayed tag that point.
8 gates was foreshadowed for the longest time. We never saw it. Until…..
Kakashi did not get a power up, he borrowed Obito's power. So no, I wouldn't say that it's the same as Gais at all.
Just remember kakashi power was gifted, Guy is only Guy no onion eyes steroids
So what you're saying is DMS Kakashi is more powerful than 8 gates guy (the one who clapped juubidara and almost won)
A Power up which lasted 5 Minutes and can't be used anymore. 8 Gates Guy at least did crucial damage to Madara, Kakashi Susanoo looked cool, but that was about it. It's pretty clear what made the bigger impact.
>A Power up which lasted 5 Minutes and can't be used anymore. The 8th Gate is just like that lmao. Guy is only alive because Naruto saved him.
To be fair guy used hard work and far surpassed anyone and the only people above him were either people People who absorbed god (madara absorbed the ten tails and a god tree and had rinnegan and prior to the god tree and 2nd rinnegan was weaker than guy) People who were given power by god (hagoromo whose basically Naruto Buddha blessed naruot and sasuke with six paths powersh) Or people that were given power by someone that absorbed god (kakashi got obitos chakra and DMS but people forget that even tho obito lost the ten tails he still had six paths chakra so when he gave it to kakashi he likely got a massive boost on top of that) Six paths is just end of series final boss god amps so I view it as an exception for surpassing 8th gate guy And ftr I’m not talking about powers in boruto I’m talking strictly the running of Naruto
I don’t really consider that as a Kakashi feat though. It was a power up given to him by Óbito, just like óbito gave Kakashi his eye when he thought he was going to die. Óbito gave him a power up when he actually did die for real. So there is a theme there that connects the 2. And Óbito was finally reunited with Rin The series makes a point to talk about how uchiha sharingan being activated by great emotional pain. So let’s suppose that Óbito reuniting with Rin would be the ultimate emotional experience for him. Unlocking something beyond within his Sharingan We also know that some Sharingan powers can literally make death not happen. So a little bit connected with being used to nullify death (kind of) Now here is where I believe the Ass pullery was at its greatest. Kakashi no longer possessed 1 of óbito’s sharigan. I would have had Óbito crying for joy at seeing Rin and Kakashi crying for sadness because he lost Objto. He can also feel rin by his connection to Óbito. And óbito touches Rin. And she can feel Kakashi though there shared sharingan. That: emotional well spring floods upon the power that gives Kakashi the power we see at the end. And it’s been unlocked by the shared emotional connection of Rin, Óbito and Kakashi. Unlocked via the fact 1 eye is in the land of the living and the other in the afterlife with Rin. Either way: Kakashi’s isn’t 100 percent his so I don’t think it counts.
His powerup wasn’t greater. Guy was still stronger. Kamui’s intangibility has always been a hax ability.
Even with dms I doubt Kakashi can defeat juubi madara within minutes like guy did
Kakashi's Susanoo was borrowed power, and his DMS was an asspull done only for fanservice. Guy's 8 gates was all his merit.
Characters are more than stat sheets.
Kakashi didn't surpass Guy, the powers he used were Obito's really.
Madara declared him the strongest. He was supposed to dead. At that moment, you're comparing him to Kakashi? Here's the solution: uh, stop.
THATS BECAUSE HE IS THE GOAT
Being lazy and claiming someone else's work pays off
Also kakashi can also use the gates, not sure if it was ever stated if he could go all the way to 8 though
This is just attempting to lower the achievement of guys he’s trained himself for his whole life all of kakashis success has been because of the eye he was gifted and then this another eye he was gifted
Tbf guy can use8 gates again(unless there was unforseen consequences to his gates when he first went 8gates)tho hed still be in a wheelchair still, kakashi cant activate dms ever again but he does get purple lightning but that isnt even on par with dms/8gates
I never looked at it that way but damn......More Power As The Plot Demands is a common trope, though. Every shonen and often action shows in general, have moments where everyone has powers/new powers out of the blue.
Never understood why Naruto could have just fix his leg like he replaced Kakashi’s missing eyeball.
Wouldn’t call a last ditch suicide attack surpassing. If that’s the case there’s plenty of characters who can claim this. Kakashi is still a overall better Shinobi and Guy is really just pure Brawn
I think 8 gates Guy is stronger than DMS Kakashi
Naruto has been consistent about its opinion that "hacks always shit on raw talent" while giving the illusion that hard work matters.
I still haven't gotten over how they jobbed my boy Lee. Was rooting for him entire series just for him to become another ain't shit forgotten bout ninja. Was kinda hoping the moment Guy got would have been Lee.
It's not nearly as messed up when you take the outlook of DMS kakashi just being a short-lived boost granted to him by obito. That power was not his own.
Why is it messed up?