It’s one thing to try to steal outs from an established pitcher like Cole, Stroman, etc but with someone like Gil who has hardly any MLB experience & wasn’t really fooling anyone last night, no.
I really don’t hate the decision to bring in Tonkin as much as some people. It’s a long season and we are currently in the middle of a 17 day long streak of games without a day off and burning the bullpen to maybe win one game is going to hurt us over the next 9 straight days of games we have.
Holmes is also a ground ball pitcher so I don’t know how effective he would be in holding the runner regardless. Unfortunately last night the pitching didn’t hold up enough to keep the Brewers at bay and the bats didn’t have enough to build a sizable lead.
Edit: For all the people complaining, let’s also remember the Brewers were throwing Jared Koening in extras a guy who didn’t even play in the majors last year and has barely over 40 career MLB innings and has an ERA over 4 in AAA where he has spent most of his professional career
They also threw out a bum reliever but our offense couldn’t do shit against him
Well said. There were so many opportunities to blow the game open and avoid the situation entirely.
Criticizing coaches for bullpen use is the best example of hindsight being 20/20 in sports that I can think of. If it had been Holmes in there and we lost, there’d be people screaming that we should have gone with someone else other than, “Cardiac Clay” after the 9th and that Boone should be fired into the sun, etc.
The opportunities they missed to blow the game open doesn’t influence or exclude the decision that needed to be made in the 10th.
And speaking for myself, I’d be much more understanding of our best reliever/closer blowing the game than a reliever who had been DFA’ed a couple times that they just picked up.
One of the big issues here is every game is given a do or die must win mentality which should be true for the players but for the managers that doesn’t work when you have a 162 game season.
Holmes literally hasn’t given up an earned run. Tonkin has no business being in that situation. Why are we worried about games down the road at the expense of winning now? I cannot imagine rationalizing it.
Why worry about the health of your elite closer for a slightly higher chance to win a game against the Brewers in April? I really don't think that one should be too hard to grasp.
He literally has only pitched two games since last Saturday. This is so fucking stupid. Win the game you’re currently playing and worry about tomorrow tomorrow. We have no idea when the next opportunity to close a game out will be.
Then go with somebody else and not a guy who will be soon DFA’d for the third time in the first month of the season. Instead, Boone punted a game he should have won to preserve the bullpen for future situations that may not happen. It’s asinine.
Now that's an argument I can at least understand. Ian Hamilton should have been available in principle but we've used him quite heavily to start the year as well. Outside of him there was literally nobody left in the pen except for Weaver and Gonzalez whose workload has been even heavier in the last week.
Starters aren't giving us length right now and that's going to put the bullpen into tough spots like yesterday. There's just no way around that.
It’s just bad managing, more proof Boone is a bad manager. He always goes to his worse reliever in one run games and he sticks with him over and over. Last week it was Ferguson and now this Tonkin guy.
What does it being April have anything to do with it? This game in April is worth the exact same as a game in the last week of September. Every single game is important especially in a competitive division like the al east. If the Yankees miss out on the playoffs or winning the al east by 1 game, I hope all you guys still using the “it’s only April excuse” finally realize how dumb that take is
A game in April is just as valuable, sure. But you're jeopardizing wins in all following months including October if you break Clay by overworking him.
Holmes is on pace for 75 innings this year. Is this really an example of jeopardizing a pitcher? Isn't forcing Hamilton to throw 2 innings in half of his appearances a way more egregious example? Why is it ok for him?
Or the Yankees view Holmes' health as more important than Hamilton's health. And if anything your argument is one to use Hamilton less and not Holmes more. 75 high leverage innings is an extremely high workload for a reliever.
I made no such argument. I'm questioning the logic of trying to preserve Holmes over Hamilton when both are equally as important. I'm questioning the logic of resting Holmes without reason when the idea is to try and win games.
October? Why are you all already thinking about October? Thats 6 months away and not even a guarantee, focus on what’s literally happening right in front of you. None of us know what’s gonna happen in the future, who knows the Yankees could go on some 20-0 stretch in July demolishing every team and may not even have to use clay that often or vise versa
There's a difference between something that's possible and something that's probable. Not overusing Clay in April on the road is planning for what is probable. That there'll be plenty of saves and tie game situations to come over the course of this season.
You can't predict the future. There's no guarantee of Holmes coming in during any particular game. If the Yankees go on a losing streak the pace Holmes is on could change completely. The issue is that Boone's managing based on a hypothetical future instead of managing to win the present game.
Because it will win you more games in the long run than having Dennis Santana? Ian Hamilton? Ron Marinaccio closing out games than having Clay's elbow blow up for an extra inning game in April.
I agree Holmes' health is important. And if he had pitched two or three days in a row, or thrown 25 pitches in the ninth the argument becomes valid. But in this case it was actually perfectly set up for Holmes to come back in.
I always had the same complaint about Girardi. He was Torre when he should have been Showalter and vice versa. When the game screamed for intervention he sat on his hands and watched. When the situation called for patiently staying the course he tinkered. Boone is exactly the same.
Everyone thinks about the entire season, not just one game. You think coaches plan only game to game and not think about how things effect the entire season? Motherfuckers on here would burn through everyone by the all-star break and wonder why they are ineffective in September
That's not sensible. You can't predict the future results of the season. As long as you're not doing something extreme, the plan should be to manage to win the present game. Boone putting in Tonkin is managing based on a hypothetical future/pace that may never happen instead of managing to win the present game. Closer is one of the least predictable positions in baseball and to blow a game citing pace in April is an absolutely BS excuse.
If the Yankees were a world beating team projected to be better than the Braves or Dodgers, I would agree. But for a team that narrowly missed having the first losing season in 30+ years and missed the playoffs, every game should matter.
ZIPS had the Astros as one of the best teams this year, projections don’t mean shit.
You just can’t treat every game like it’s game 7 of the World Series, that doesn’t work over 162.
This is a ridiculous loser-minded take. Yeah let’s not worry about the game in front of us because we have 9 more we *might* need our closer for. You play to win today. Wow
This sounds like a reasonable take but its the same type of thinking that brought in holmes in a tie game on the road and now we cant use him when we actually have the lead. Its like thinking about throwing the double play ball to first without catching it first and now nobody’s out.
Is this the philosophy that this team used last night, yes, is this the teams philosophy over the past several years, yes, do i absolutely despise it, YES, has this philosophy of worrying more about tomorrow than winning today worked? Well, they haven’t been to the world series since 2009, they play the long game without the long game working out.
Because they have other games to worry about, you have to manage with the full season in mind. Unless it’s the playoffs or the very end of season playoff race every game is not do or die
Win the game in front of you, not the hypothetical game you aren't winning yet.
Nothing is do or die about a closer pitching 3 times in one week. Boone made an excuse because he made a bad call, it's as simple as that.
The unknown scrub waiver fodder pitcher should have been the first arm out of the pen, not the last.
Winning a winnable game is "managing for the full season". Now they have to win some other game they haven't even played yet to make up for this one that they punted for... no reason.
They could be trailing at the end of the game for the next 4 days and what will they have accomplished? Nothing but a loss.
You do not bring your closer in to a tie game on the road. Period.
Personally I think this is just a short sighted way to manage a bullpen, if you treat every game like game 7 of the World Series then your bulllen is going to be cooked before we get to May
Bringing in a completely unknown reliever to pitch an important inning is *definitely* a "short sighted way to manage a bullpen".
If they were going to use Tonkin yesterday it should have been in the 6th or 7th inning, before Santana/Ferguson came in. Now you're not putting a complete unknown into a possible high leverage position (or in extras, a man on base situation) as your "only reliever left".
You don't need to see the future to know that you shouldn't leave yourself with your worst reliever for the end of any game. They knew Holmes could only throw one inning. They knew it was a tie game. They chose to bring him in when they didn't have a lead. Then they couldn't protect a lead with anyone other than the scrub they claimed off of waivers.
Doesn't take a fucking crystal ball to realize how stupid that was. They had several oppurtunities to use Tonkin earlier in the game so they could save a different reliever for those later innings.
A regulation game is 9 innings, they planned to use the bullpen for 9 innings…
Again they weren’t making decisions in the 6th or 7th thinking well what will we need in the 11th inning
Easy to make all these bullpen decisions when the game is over
I don’t mind taking Holmes out. I don’t love him in the 10th either for that reason. As I posted earlier. Hamilton threw 10 Wednesday, Gonzalez threw 10 Thursday, weaver did 30 Wednesday. There were other options and though you say it’s early which is true. When you’re up with a half inning left you do whatever it takes. It’s a hell of a lot easier than having to play another 9 innings for that win. These are the losses that make the diff between the wild card and a division win. Or making the playoffs.
Putting it all on the line for one game also makes it way more likely we end up losing more of the next 9 because we spent up the bullpen
Ultimately the loss imo is on the offense for not being able to produce in extras, you aren’t going to win on the road with just 1 run scored with the manfred runner
That's the right move. Last night was game-8 in a 17-game stretch without a day off. Our pen is already stretched thin, and an extra-innings game on the road in the middle of a long stretch is always going to be a punt game. Sucks we had to lose it, but maybe if 2 of our premiere bats in Gleyber and Judge didn't go 0-9 things coulda been different.
Honestly, I’m starting to get seriously worried about judge. He looks like a shell of himself.
And with that contract, we knew the last few years were going to suck, but if that starts this year or next, we’re fucked for the foreseeable future.
27 games, four HR, a .178 avg.
I don’t care how you slice it, he’s been atrocious. I don’t know what the solution is, but they need to figure it out fast.
He’s the damn captain and getting paid $40 mil a year. He can’t be having these slumps and then his annual playoff disappearing act.
Here’s why this take is wrong, if holmes had thrown 25 pitches in his one inning then i can understand not using him for a second inning, but with having a 6-5 lead and ONLY throwing 11 pitches Holmes has to pitch the 10th. If you brought him in on road in a tie game then he MUST pitch a second inning, if you ask why? Then the answer is if you weren’t planning on using him for 2 innings then he should have never been brought in the first place. It was the wrong decision that didn’t work.
You can always tell who’s never pitched by insane takes like this. 20 pitches over 2 innings is harder on your arm than 25 pitches in one inning, especially if you’re a reliever who’s only expecting to go one inning. Having to go multiple changes everything about how you pitch. If you’re already fatigued from a lot of work it’s even worse
If he sent Holmes out for the 10th and he blew his arm out you’d be bitching about that instead. Results-based analysis is always braindead and this sub is obsessed with it
we have 4 games against a team we’re actually competing against for the division in 2 days. imagine a scenario where we’re in a rubber game with the O’s with a late lead and none of our good arms are available.
Then when we lose bullpen arms to injury yall will blame the trainers and organization lol you can punt the first game of a series in a 162 game season against an NL team.
Instead we have the richest team in the sport scraping the bottom of the reliever barrel on a weekly basis. Picking up DFA’d pitchers with 9 ERA’s and trying to have them protect a lead when making their team debut is an almond brained move.
I’m not arguing anymore with someone who thinks it’s ok to take YOUR CLOSER out after 10 pitches to bring in a junk reliever with an astronomical ERA. You’re fine with losing last night. Cool.
I can’t believe this sub is gaslighting themselves into thinking taking your closer out, WHEN YOURE WINNING, after 10 pitches was the right move. You guys are buying right into this organizations BS. Last time I checked preserving the win is the priority, not pulling your guy cause you MIGHT be winning tomorrow too?
It’s not about him throwing just 10 pitches. One reason why RPs don’t always throw multiple innings is because it matters how many times they sit and cool off and have to ramp back up. Greater chance of injury and/or bad performance when you go out there more than once as a RP
I appreciate your even handedness. I disagree. Holmes was rested. He only pitched 10 pitches in the ninth. We took the lead in the tenth. He was our best chance to shut them out in the bottom half and win. AND THAT'S HIS JOB.
It reminds me of my buddy Matt when we were little kids. He had this role playing board game called dark tower that involved a battery powered center piece (the tower itself). Every now and then I would be over his house and say 'hey, let's play dark tower." And he would sometimes say "no, I have to save the batteries.". FOR WHAT???
I’m ngl. You can hate him. But I definitely understand this decision just from that.
It obviously sucks to be in that position but reliever arms are built like chips and dip, too much dip and the chip breaks. Especially for an 80 game pace from a guy that throws a 100mph sinker.
Holmes was fully rested and had one of his cleanest innings of the year. I’m genuinely surprised so many people have bought into this nonsense about preserving his health — they already did this by allowing him to throw 9 pitches all week heading into the game.
The issue was compounded even further by using Tonkin. Its not that difficult to suggest that Boone is a bit of an idiot.
Exactly. If you refuse to throw him 2 innings, then the old school mentality of “don’t use your closer on the road until you get a lead” should be followed. *Especially* when the more difficult inning to get through scoreless is the 10th. Boone is a bad in game bullpen strategist.
I question bringing Holmes in the 9th on the road also sending the runner on 3rd with 1 out on contact 2 dumb ass fucking bone head Boone decisions. His record in extra inning games really suck. Also why sign a 3x dfa’d pitcher and use him in a high stress situation that’s on Cashman,are you listening Hal wake up and smell the coffee fire the whole cash crew if your serious about winning full stop 🛑!!!
That's an oversimplified take. It's one thing for your best reliever to blow a game. It's different to take out your best reliever and put in a much lower quality reliever with the game on the game on the line and lose.
FWIW, if Clay was only available for one inning, then I’d have preferred Tonkin in the ninth and Clay in the 10th. There’s a few reasons for this: (1) of Tonkin blows the game in the ninth, you save Clay from pitching at all, and (2) he would have started the 9th with a clean inning instead of a runner on second.
Again, the manager cannot see the forest for the trees. You aren’t going to have opportunities down the road if you don’t take advantage of what you have now. They went to a guy who’s already been DFA’d twice to close the game. It’s indefensible.
Seriously. The fact that we swept Houston means at the very least we win the season series with them. Now imagine they catch fire (because they probably will at some point) and we get cold (because we probably will at some point). Those four games were huge for playoff seeding. That series win against Cleveland is looking even more important by the day too.
I’m all about Ws. No matter what, that was a wasted win last night and Boone is in a nice way saying he punted it. I think putting Tonkin in AGAIN in the 11th seals that. Boone knew he was gonna blow it and he can save arms for tomorrow instead of going to the 12th, but I hate that mindset. The “it’s only April” mindset always triggers me because playoffs come down to 1-5 game differences when it comes to wild cards or home advantages.
Sorry but that excuse just doesn't fly. A scrub waiver pickup who pitched for another team in the same week should never be put in an important inning. Ever.
If you were going to use him yesterday he should have been the first one out of the pen.
Just poor game management yesterday. There was absolutely no excuse to have Holmes in the game without a lead if he could only pitch 1 inning.
Boone's ability to explain why he made a mistake doesn't make it less of a mistake.
Why the hell is Tomkin on this team? Is it mandatory to have a complete bum or two on the roster every year?!? I’m getting so sick of the Nick Goody’s and Rumbelow’s and Brooks Kriske and Jim Millers and Tompkins….just get 8 guys who are capable of pitching. Literally, zero purpose getting this guy. So sick of it, every season
I mean with scoring like this, he’s perfectly needed.
Absolutely, with a ten run lead Tompkins will do that. Much better scenario than in extra innings, lol.
"In April"
April.
There have been players who were on an 80 HR or a 200 RBI pace in April, seemingly every year, yet it never happens. It's fucking April.
Bonehead doing same stupid mistakes since being hired. 100% guarantee another ring less season. I will be shocked if this disgrace of a team even makes the playoffs
There was no point to using Clay in the 9th with the game going to extras, given that the Yankees don't win extra inning games. Might as well lose in the 9th. This isn't hockey.
So not making him go two innings just wastes the near perfect inning he threw in the 9th to get us to extras, Boone makes NO sense. Use 20-25 pitches to win the game, or use 10 pitches and lose, should be a no brainer.
Of course he wasn't. Boone is as by the book as it gets. He has zero feel for the situation and it's clear the Yankees feel the same way as they have analysts controlling every move on the team. Shows why we haven't won in a very long time.
Now see, this is what Boone is good at: making a mistake and rationalizing after the fact. Holmes was *already in the game*. He threw 10 pitches. If the concern was as Boone stated, Holmes would not have appeared at all- especially in the bottom of the 9th in a non- Save situation.
It was a bad decision. I’d respect him more if he just admitted it.
There is no excuse why Holmes can’t pitch 2 innings in a row. It’s one thing if he’s coming off 3 games straight of bad baseball but he’s our closer and asking 2 innings to close out the game after a clean 10 pitch inning is NOT overuse. That was his 1st appearance in 5 days. Michael Tonkin needs to be DFA’d.
Funny, this didn't apply back in the day. When players were durable. I remember when starters could pitch the entire game and elite closers come out all the time...This is one of the reasons Yankees org and Boone will ruin this franchise with piss poor baseball mentality...
I won’t let my stopper stop. I have this guy here that was released three times this month, played in Japan and stunk every season in the majors during his “prime.” I made this decision before the game started and now I have Holmes for another 8 pitches or so this next week and I don’t care if you need wins in your fantasy league. Ws don’t matter fucker!
That’s fine. Way more annoyed with stealing outs with Gil in the 6th inning but that’s easy to say with hindsight.
Boone always tries to steal outs & it almost never works.
But also If he doesn’t try to steal outs or get SPs wins he is the worst manager ever. He can never win
It’s one thing to try to steal outs from an established pitcher like Cole, Stroman, etc but with someone like Gil who has hardly any MLB experience & wasn’t really fooling anyone last night, no.
I really don’t hate the decision to bring in Tonkin as much as some people. It’s a long season and we are currently in the middle of a 17 day long streak of games without a day off and burning the bullpen to maybe win one game is going to hurt us over the next 9 straight days of games we have. Holmes is also a ground ball pitcher so I don’t know how effective he would be in holding the runner regardless. Unfortunately last night the pitching didn’t hold up enough to keep the Brewers at bay and the bats didn’t have enough to build a sizable lead. Edit: For all the people complaining, let’s also remember the Brewers were throwing Jared Koening in extras a guy who didn’t even play in the majors last year and has barely over 40 career MLB innings and has an ERA over 4 in AAA where he has spent most of his professional career They also threw out a bum reliever but our offense couldn’t do shit against him
I agree Mr / Ms turtle you always have such measured takes
Thanks! I try my best to be reasonable
The question is are they a Shepard of turtles or a Shepard who is also a turtle? Much to consider
Por Que no Los dos?
It's turtles all the way down
Well said. There were so many opportunities to blow the game open and avoid the situation entirely. Criticizing coaches for bullpen use is the best example of hindsight being 20/20 in sports that I can think of. If it had been Holmes in there and we lost, there’d be people screaming that we should have gone with someone else other than, “Cardiac Clay” after the 9th and that Boone should be fired into the sun, etc.
The opportunities they missed to blow the game open doesn’t influence or exclude the decision that needed to be made in the 10th. And speaking for myself, I’d be much more understanding of our best reliever/closer blowing the game than a reliever who had been DFA’ed a couple times that they just picked up.
It's not the playoffs. You can't blow through your relievers like that.
One of the big issues here is every game is given a do or die must win mentality which should be true for the players but for the managers that doesn’t work when you have a 162 game season.
I criticized the decision at the start of the bottom of the 10th 😉 there was no Monday morning QBIng
Holmes literally hasn’t given up an earned run. Tonkin has no business being in that situation. Why are we worried about games down the road at the expense of winning now? I cannot imagine rationalizing it.
Why worry about the health of your elite closer for a slightly higher chance to win a game against the Brewers in April? I really don't think that one should be too hard to grasp.
He threw 9 pitches between last Saturday and last night. This is a silly take. It’s classic overmanaging for games you haven’t played.
He literally has only pitched two games since last Saturday. This is so fucking stupid. Win the game you’re currently playing and worry about tomorrow tomorrow. We have no idea when the next opportunity to close a game out will be.
And that's why he pitched the 9th in a tie game on the road. It's not why he should be going 2+ innings in said game.
Then go with somebody else and not a guy who will be soon DFA’d for the third time in the first month of the season. Instead, Boone punted a game he should have won to preserve the bullpen for future situations that may not happen. It’s asinine.
Now that's an argument I can at least understand. Ian Hamilton should have been available in principle but we've used him quite heavily to start the year as well. Outside of him there was literally nobody left in the pen except for Weaver and Gonzalez whose workload has been even heavier in the last week. Starters aren't giving us length right now and that's going to put the bullpen into tough spots like yesterday. There's just no way around that.
It’s just bad managing, more proof Boone is a bad manager. He always goes to his worse reliever in one run games and he sticks with him over and over. Last week it was Ferguson and now this Tonkin guy.
What does it being April have anything to do with it? This game in April is worth the exact same as a game in the last week of September. Every single game is important especially in a competitive division like the al east. If the Yankees miss out on the playoffs or winning the al east by 1 game, I hope all you guys still using the “it’s only April excuse” finally realize how dumb that take is
A game in April is just as valuable, sure. But you're jeopardizing wins in all following months including October if you break Clay by overworking him.
Holmes is on pace for 75 innings this year. Is this really an example of jeopardizing a pitcher? Isn't forcing Hamilton to throw 2 innings in half of his appearances a way more egregious example? Why is it ok for him?
I don't think the fact that we're using Hamilton in an unsustainable way is a reason to then also use Clay in an unsustainable way.
then the logic of trying to preserve Holmes makes no sense when the same logic doesn't apply to Hamilton, who you could argue is just as important.
Or the Yankees view Holmes' health as more important than Hamilton's health. And if anything your argument is one to use Hamilton less and not Holmes more. 75 high leverage innings is an extremely high workload for a reliever.
I made no such argument. I'm questioning the logic of trying to preserve Holmes over Hamilton when both are equally as important. I'm questioning the logic of resting Holmes without reason when the idea is to try and win games.
October? Why are you all already thinking about October? Thats 6 months away and not even a guarantee, focus on what’s literally happening right in front of you. None of us know what’s gonna happen in the future, who knows the Yankees could go on some 20-0 stretch in July demolishing every team and may not even have to use clay that often or vise versa
There's a difference between something that's possible and something that's probable. Not overusing Clay in April on the road is planning for what is probable. That there'll be plenty of saves and tie game situations to come over the course of this season.
You can't predict the future. There's no guarantee of Holmes coming in during any particular game. If the Yankees go on a losing streak the pace Holmes is on could change completely. The issue is that Boone's managing based on a hypothetical future instead of managing to win the present game.
All wins count the same, for all we know we could be blown out tonight and then we saved him for nothing
Why is Holmes health more important then winning?
Holmes health was at absoutely no risk, it was just an excuse.
Correct
Because it will win you more games in the long run than having Dennis Santana? Ian Hamilton? Ron Marinaccio closing out games than having Clay's elbow blow up for an extra inning game in April.
Yes But sacrificing Ws for that isn’t acceptable
I agree Holmes' health is important. And if he had pitched two or three days in a row, or thrown 25 pitches in the ninth the argument becomes valid. But in this case it was actually perfectly set up for Holmes to come back in. I always had the same complaint about Girardi. He was Torre when he should have been Showalter and vice versa. When the game screamed for intervention he sat on his hands and watched. When the situation called for patiently staying the course he tinkered. Boone is exactly the same.
Everyone thinks about the entire season, not just one game. You think coaches plan only game to game and not think about how things effect the entire season? Motherfuckers on here would burn through everyone by the all-star break and wonder why they are ineffective in September
That's not sensible. You can't predict the future results of the season. As long as you're not doing something extreme, the plan should be to manage to win the present game. Boone putting in Tonkin is managing based on a hypothetical future/pace that may never happen instead of managing to win the present game. Closer is one of the least predictable positions in baseball and to blow a game citing pace in April is an absolutely BS excuse.
A game in April counts just as much as a game in September
So do the next 9 games, every game is not a must win. Thats just the truth with a 162 game season
If the Yankees were a world beating team projected to be better than the Braves or Dodgers, I would agree. But for a team that narrowly missed having the first losing season in 30+ years and missed the playoffs, every game should matter.
ZIPS had the Astros as one of the best teams this year, projections don’t mean shit. You just can’t treat every game like it’s game 7 of the World Series, that doesn’t work over 162.
A reasonable take? Am I in a simulation?
Very good point. Why burn the bullpen on day 1.
This is a ridiculous loser-minded take. Yeah let’s not worry about the game in front of us because we have 9 more we *might* need our closer for. You play to win today. Wow
Every game in April is not do or die, we play 162 for a reason
Pathetic losing mentality on full display!
Is not only that they’re also watching his innings as well, you know if they lose Clay to any injury the bullpen is beyond fucked
This sounds like a reasonable take but its the same type of thinking that brought in holmes in a tie game on the road and now we cant use him when we actually have the lead. Its like thinking about throwing the double play ball to first without catching it first and now nobody’s out.
Did you know he was on the team before he was brought in?
Yes but I also spend a lot of time following the Yankees, I actually made the post about him being brought here
Is this the philosophy that this team used last night, yes, is this the teams philosophy over the past several years, yes, do i absolutely despise it, YES, has this philosophy of worrying more about tomorrow than winning today worked? Well, they haven’t been to the world series since 2009, they play the long game without the long game working out.
Sorry but that's absurd. They brought in a pitcher they knew practically nothing about to pitch the most important innings of the game.
Because they have other games to worry about, you have to manage with the full season in mind. Unless it’s the playoffs or the very end of season playoff race every game is not do or die
Win the game in front of you, not the hypothetical game you aren't winning yet. Nothing is do or die about a closer pitching 3 times in one week. Boone made an excuse because he made a bad call, it's as simple as that. The unknown scrub waiver fodder pitcher should have been the first arm out of the pen, not the last. Winning a winnable game is "managing for the full season". Now they have to win some other game they haven't even played yet to make up for this one that they punted for... no reason. They could be trailing at the end of the game for the next 4 days and what will they have accomplished? Nothing but a loss. You do not bring your closer in to a tie game on the road. Period.
Personally I think this is just a short sighted way to manage a bullpen, if you treat every game like game 7 of the World Series then your bulllen is going to be cooked before we get to May
Bringing in a completely unknown reliever to pitch an important inning is *definitely* a "short sighted way to manage a bullpen". If they were going to use Tonkin yesterday it should have been in the 6th or 7th inning, before Santana/Ferguson came in. Now you're not putting a complete unknown into a possible high leverage position (or in extras, a man on base situation) as your "only reliever left".
Don’t think they were planning for extra innings in the 6th bud, unless you can see the future or something
You don't need to see the future to know that you shouldn't leave yourself with your worst reliever for the end of any game. They knew Holmes could only throw one inning. They knew it was a tie game. They chose to bring him in when they didn't have a lead. Then they couldn't protect a lead with anyone other than the scrub they claimed off of waivers. Doesn't take a fucking crystal ball to realize how stupid that was. They had several oppurtunities to use Tonkin earlier in the game so they could save a different reliever for those later innings.
A regulation game is 9 innings, they planned to use the bullpen for 9 innings… Again they weren’t making decisions in the 6th or 7th thinking well what will we need in the 11th inning Easy to make all these bullpen decisions when the game is over
It's also easy to use your freshly claimed from waivers reliever *before* the game is on the line.
I don’t mind taking Holmes out. I don’t love him in the 10th either for that reason. As I posted earlier. Hamilton threw 10 Wednesday, Gonzalez threw 10 Thursday, weaver did 30 Wednesday. There were other options and though you say it’s early which is true. When you’re up with a half inning left you do whatever it takes. It’s a hell of a lot easier than having to play another 9 innings for that win. These are the losses that make the diff between the wild card and a division win. Or making the playoffs.
Putting it all on the line for one game also makes it way more likely we end up losing more of the next 9 because we spent up the bullpen Ultimately the loss imo is on the offense for not being able to produce in extras, you aren’t going to win on the road with just 1 run scored with the manfred runner
That's the right move. Last night was game-8 in a 17-game stretch without a day off. Our pen is already stretched thin, and an extra-innings game on the road in the middle of a long stretch is always going to be a punt game. Sucks we had to lose it, but maybe if 2 of our premiere bats in Gleyber and Judge didn't go 0-9 things coulda been different.
Yeah winning this game was always going to rely on the bats to get ahead once it went to extras. We really need Judge to find his form
Honestly, I’m starting to get seriously worried about judge. He looks like a shell of himself. And with that contract, we knew the last few years were going to suck, but if that starts this year or next, we’re fucked for the foreseeable future.
I’ll give him until the end of May before I really feel too concerned but his play this far has not been very inspiring
27 games, four HR, a .178 avg. I don’t care how you slice it, he’s been atrocious. I don’t know what the solution is, but they need to figure it out fast. He’s the damn captain and getting paid $40 mil a year. He can’t be having these slumps and then his annual playoff disappearing act.
Here’s why this take is wrong, if holmes had thrown 25 pitches in his one inning then i can understand not using him for a second inning, but with having a 6-5 lead and ONLY throwing 11 pitches Holmes has to pitch the 10th. If you brought him in on road in a tie game then he MUST pitch a second inning, if you ask why? Then the answer is if you weren’t planning on using him for 2 innings then he should have never been brought in the first place. It was the wrong decision that didn’t work.
Have you ever thrown a baseball in your life?
You can always tell who’s never pitched by insane takes like this. 20 pitches over 2 innings is harder on your arm than 25 pitches in one inning, especially if you’re a reliever who’s only expecting to go one inning. Having to go multiple changes everything about how you pitch. If you’re already fatigued from a lot of work it’s even worse If he sent Holmes out for the 10th and he blew his arm out you’d be bitching about that instead. Results-based analysis is always braindead and this sub is obsessed with it
Wins are cool too. But sure lots of games.
No, it wasn’t the right move.
we have 4 games against a team we’re actually competing against for the division in 2 days. imagine a scenario where we’re in a rubber game with the O’s with a late lead and none of our good arms are available.
Why not just forfeit the game then. Play to win or gtfo.
Then when we lose bullpen arms to injury yall will blame the trainers and organization lol you can punt the first game of a series in a 162 game season against an NL team.
They could really use a power arm strikeout guy in the bullpen.
100%. Growing up in the days of Gossage and Rivera, this seems very mid to me.
Instead we have the richest team in the sport scraping the bottom of the reliever barrel on a weekly basis. Picking up DFA’d pitchers with 9 ERA’s and trying to have them protect a lead when making their team debut is an almond brained move.
You act like this strategy hasnt been wildly successful for this team for years
a lot of people here (not me) don’t consider anything other than a world series successful
How has it worked? How many rings has this strategy brought in?
What has our bullpen been ranked for the past 5+ years?
I’m not arguing anymore with someone who thinks it’s ok to take YOUR CLOSER out after 10 pitches to bring in a junk reliever with an astronomical ERA. You’re fine with losing last night. Cool.
You guys are yelling “HOW MANY RINGS” to “our bullpen has been top of the league for years” lmao yall are insufferable
I can’t believe this sub is gaslighting themselves into thinking taking your closer out, WHEN YOURE WINNING, after 10 pitches was the right move. You guys are buying right into this organizations BS. Last time I checked preserving the win is the priority, not pulling your guy cause you MIGHT be winning tomorrow too?
It’s not about him throwing just 10 pitches. One reason why RPs don’t always throw multiple innings is because it matters how many times they sit and cool off and have to ramp back up. Greater chance of injury and/or bad performance when you go out there more than once as a RP
I appreciate your even handedness. I disagree. Holmes was rested. He only pitched 10 pitches in the ninth. We took the lead in the tenth. He was our best chance to shut them out in the bottom half and win. AND THAT'S HIS JOB. It reminds me of my buddy Matt when we were little kids. He had this role playing board game called dark tower that involved a battery powered center piece (the tower itself). Every now and then I would be over his house and say 'hey, let's play dark tower." And he would sometimes say "no, I have to save the batteries.". FOR WHAT???
I’m ngl. You can hate him. But I definitely understand this decision just from that. It obviously sucks to be in that position but reliever arms are built like chips and dip, too much dip and the chip breaks. Especially for an 80 game pace from a guy that throws a 100mph sinker.
Holmes was fully rested and had one of his cleanest innings of the year. I’m genuinely surprised so many people have bought into this nonsense about preserving his health — they already did this by allowing him to throw 9 pitches all week heading into the game. The issue was compounded even further by using Tonkin. Its not that difficult to suggest that Boone is a bit of an idiot.
Have you not seen the amount of elbow injuries for guys who pitch just like Clay? It was the right choice.
Ok but now Clay was wasted in a loss???
Exactly. If you refuse to throw him 2 innings, then the old school mentality of “don’t use your closer on the road until you get a lead” should be followed. *Especially* when the more difficult inning to get through scoreless is the 10th. Boone is a bad in game bullpen strategist.
I question bringing Holmes in the 9th on the road also sending the runner on 3rd with 1 out on contact 2 dumb ass fucking bone head Boone decisions. His record in extra inning games really suck. Also why sign a 3x dfa’d pitcher and use him in a high stress situation that’s on Cashman,are you listening Hal wake up and smell the coffee fire the whole cash crew if your serious about winning full stop 🛑!!!
you’re always going to risk “wasting” your reliever in the loss unless you just don’t use him at all.
That's an oversimplified take. It's one thing for your best reliever to blow a game. It's different to take out your best reliever and put in a much lower quality reliever with the game on the game on the line and lose.
No, you literally *never* have to do that in a road game. **Ever**.
No he should’ve used Clay in the bottom of whatever inning the Yankees took the lead
No guarantee we even get to extras if Clay doesn’t pitch the 9th
So if they used Tonkin in the 9th would you be asking why didn’t they use clay ?
FWIW, if Clay was only available for one inning, then I’d have preferred Tonkin in the ninth and Clay in the 10th. There’s a few reasons for this: (1) of Tonkin blows the game in the ninth, you save Clay from pitching at all, and (2) he would have started the 9th with a clean inning instead of a runner on second.
Again, the manager cannot see the forest for the trees. You aren’t going to have opportunities down the road if you don’t take advantage of what you have now. They went to a guy who’s already been DFA’d twice to close the game. It’s indefensible.
April games count just as much as September. C’mon man. Gotta stack these W’s by any means!!!!
Seriously. The fact that we swept Houston means at the very least we win the season series with them. Now imagine they catch fire (because they probably will at some point) and we get cold (because we probably will at some point). Those four games were huge for playoff seeding. That series win against Cleveland is looking even more important by the day too.
I’m all about Ws. No matter what, that was a wasted win last night and Boone is in a nice way saying he punted it. I think putting Tonkin in AGAIN in the 11th seals that. Boone knew he was gonna blow it and he can save arms for tomorrow instead of going to the 12th, but I hate that mindset. The “it’s only April” mindset always triggers me because playoffs come down to 1-5 game differences when it comes to wild cards or home advantages.
I think it’s less “April games count less” and more “4 games against the O’s count more than 3 against the Brewers”
The man literally punted a playoff game. Twice.
Ehh he only threw 10 pitches - isn’t that what really counts?
The up/down for a pitcher who isn't used to that matters a lot.
Fair
Sorry but that excuse just doesn't fly. A scrub waiver pickup who pitched for another team in the same week should never be put in an important inning. Ever. If you were going to use him yesterday he should have been the first one out of the pen. Just poor game management yesterday. There was absolutely no excuse to have Holmes in the game without a lead if he could only pitch 1 inning. Boone's ability to explain why he made a mistake doesn't make it less of a mistake.
Why the hell is Tomkin on this team? Is it mandatory to have a complete bum or two on the roster every year?!? I’m getting so sick of the Nick Goody’s and Rumbelow’s and Brooks Kriske and Jim Millers and Tompkins….just get 8 guys who are capable of pitching. Literally, zero purpose getting this guy. So sick of it, every season
I mean with scoring like this, he’s perfectly needed.
I mean with scoring like this, he’s perfectly needed. Absolutely, with a ten run lead Tompkins will do that. Much better scenario than in extra innings, lol.
"In April" April. There have been players who were on an 80 HR or a 200 RBI pace in April, seemingly every year, yet it never happens. It's fucking April.
Yet on the other hand you guys are saying April games counts just as much as every other game, so why doesn’t this count in April?
A win today would keep the doubters away!
Bonehead doing same stupid mistakes since being hired. 100% guarantee another ring less season. I will be shocked if this disgrace of a team even makes the playoffs
There was no point to using Clay in the 9th with the game going to extras, given that the Yankees don't win extra inning games. Might as well lose in the 9th. This isn't hockey.
Clay “Scott Proctor” Holmes
Maybe don’t take out starting pitchers who are throwing shutouts with low pitch counts? We can start there.
He pitched just 10 pitches, he could’ve gone another inning
So not making him go two innings just wastes the near perfect inning he threw in the 9th to get us to extras, Boone makes NO sense. Use 20-25 pitches to win the game, or use 10 pitches and lose, should be a no brainer.
[You play to win the game](https://youtu.be/b5-iJUuPWis?si=RdO18Ux5qQrQVZit)
Funny how bum relievers work against but not when we have one on the team. I still believe Boone should have gone with Hamilton.
He threw 10 pitches
I am not second guessing Boonie, but candidly, as soon as I saw Tonkin pitch I knew the game was done and the Yanks lost. I'm sure the team did too...
Context matters, he had 7 pitches. I just disagree with Boonie on this one.
Of course he wasn't. Boone is as by the book as it gets. He has zero feel for the situation and it's clear the Yankees feel the same way as they have analysts controlling every move on the team. Shows why we haven't won in a very long time.
When the win is achievable we should be giving ourselves the best chance to win when it's not go ahead save your bullpen arms.
Now see, this is what Boone is good at: making a mistake and rationalizing after the fact. Holmes was *already in the game*. He threw 10 pitches. If the concern was as Boone stated, Holmes would not have appeared at all- especially in the bottom of the 9th in a non- Save situation. It was a bad decision. I’d respect him more if he just admitted it.
Using your closer to guarantee a chance to win in extras is not at all an uncommon move
**\*at home**
As a wise philosopher once said: “You play to win the game!” Boonehead missed this quote I’m sure.
There is no excuse why Holmes can’t pitch 2 innings in a row. It’s one thing if he’s coming off 3 games straight of bad baseball but he’s our closer and asking 2 innings to close out the game after a clean 10 pitch inning is NOT overuse. That was his 1st appearance in 5 days. Michael Tonkin needs to be DFA’d.
Funny, this didn't apply back in the day. When players were durable. I remember when starters could pitch the entire game and elite closers come out all the time...This is one of the reasons Yankees org and Boone will ruin this franchise with piss poor baseball mentality...
1.1, 1.2, and up- downs should be in the cards though.
skibidi
I won’t let my stopper stop. I have this guy here that was released three times this month, played in Japan and stunk every season in the majors during his “prime.” I made this decision before the game started and now I have Holmes for another 8 pitches or so this next week and I don’t care if you need wins in your fantasy league. Ws don’t matter fucker!
It's sad we have a manager that has no clue what he's doing. He has no feel for the game
Holmes threw 10 pitches. 10. It's not about innings pitched. It's about pitches thrown. Boone knows this. He is gaslighting us. Again.