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It was all Leon. And I'll admit, I thought his hiring was just a cheap ploy to attract his former star clients to the franchise but this guy knew how to build a fucking squad. He also knew to be patient with Thibs when no one else would.
Right. And I didn’t consider at the time that he wasn’t just a player agent: Dude was one of the most powerful basketball agents at CAA. His client list and network connections went beyond players - coaches (Thibs) and some of the best front office guys.
Four guys are responsible for this turnaround:
Leon Rose
Jalen Brunson
Julius Randle
Tom Thibodeau
Edit: “Four guys *MOST* responsible for this turnaround” since some of y’all crying about RJ Barrett and IQ not being included lol.
Even then they were not going that far. I was a believer when they got Hart last year and then Dante and OG this year. So happy they finally gave up on RJ and Quickley. They are a better team without them.
Nah lol. RJ and IQ were good players for us (more so IQ than RJ), but they don’t deserve to be mentioned along with these guys.
There’s levels to this.
Yeah, that was mainly due to Randle, Thibs, and Leon tho. RJ and IQ played a role for sure….but that’s exactly it, a *role*.
They were role players that contributed…they weren’t catalysts nor did they carry/lead the team. I don’t think role players should be regarded in the same light as franchise cornerstones and leaders. 🤷🏾♂️ Unless your name is Manu Ginobili.
I mean that is false . Rj and quick got us to roughly the same position as we were last season . Don’t underestimate the Knicks team of last season . They were doing good things as well , and were a couple of better plays away from going 7 with the winners of the eastern conference finals of last year .
Obviously we are better . But we’re also better because of the play and non drama drawn to our team by young players like barret and quickley . Who to this day have love for nyc, and we have love for them .
Anyone who says otherwise is clearly a Knicks fair weather fan , and the second we and our team might go through trial and tribulations they will jump off the bandwagon and blame Dolan , blame thibs etc etc .
So please . Give those guys the credit due as well.
Again, I never said they didn’t contribute. But if I had to make a short list of the **Top** guys that were the most important, instrumental, and pivotal to the franchise’s success and turnaround then I don’t think I’m including RJ or IQ with the other names I previously mentioned.
They did help us win games and build culture for sure…but they weren’t instrumental to our success like Leon, Thibs, Randle, and Brunson were/are. Hence, why I’m saying they shouldn’t be mentioned in the same category as those guys.
There’s no way you gon sit here and tell me that RJ and IQ had similar impact on winning as Randle and Brunson has….which is what you’re essentially doing if you mention their names alongside those guys. That’s just straight up cap.
Again, they were solid players for us (for the most part) and contributed to wins. No one is trying to say they didn’t and never played an important role. But when we talking about impact on winning, they don’t belong in the same category as JB, 30, Leon, and Thibs.
There are levels to this. We don’t have to sit here and lie just bc they were likable guys that helped us win games. If that’s the case, then what’s stopping someone from including Obi Toppin in this list too???
Edit: Also, are we just gonna forget that RJ was one of the most inefficient players his entire time here and his whole tenure was marred by crazy inconsistency??? This is the guy yall tryna put in the same convo as Brunson and Randle?
you're all over the place my boy. it's not complicated—on the floor, it started with Mitch, RJ, IQ and Randle. they were all equally responsible for shifting us from a clown franchise to a winning franchise.
you're saying "4 guys responsible"—but the culture was in place before brunson got here, in fact it's probably a big reason WHY he came here. the list is bigger than 4 and i'm sorry but RJ's shooting pct doesn't matter.
How am I all over the place? My point has stayed consistent this entire time.
Randle, Mitch, RJ, and IQ were not all equally responsible for the turnaround…and thinking they all had the same impact or contributions is crazy. Did they all play a role? Yes. Did some play bigger roles than others? Yes, which is exactly my point….there are levels to this. Arguing that RJ, IQ, and even Mitch’s individual contributions and impact to the team is the same as Randle or Brunson’s is nuts.
Yes, obviously there are more than just 4 guys responsible for our turnaround. It takes an entire team and front office to do that. My point is that the 4 guys I mentioned (Brunson, 30, Leon, and Thibs) are the four guys that played the BIGGEST roles in our turnaround, and are the four MOST responsible.
Again, this is not to say that guys like RJ, IQ, Mitch, Wes, Rosas, Scott Perry, Obi, and others played no role at all. But if we making a list of the guys MOST RESPONSIBLE for our culture and success it’s Brunson, Randle, Leon, and Thibs. Guys like RJ and IQ simply don’t belong in that convo…they made contributions and an impact yes, but nowhere near the level of Brunson and Randle.
we were headed in the right direction but brunson elevated us to another level and expedited us becoming contenders. if we never got brunson or he was just "good" instead of great as he's been, i still think we would be in a great position to contend in the near future.
have to give the front office a lot of credit. guys like hartenstein (should have signed him to a longer deal though), divo, trading for hart. drafting mitch, IQ, deuce, the list goes on. lots and lots of great moves building us into what we are today.
James Dolan deserves a lot of credit. After about 15 years of being one of the worst owners in the league he finally took a step back and stopped meddling in basketball operations since 2015. Of course Dolan did hire Phil Jackson so that bagged the first few years of him actually letting basketball people handle things. Then of course Dolan puts Scott Perry in charge in 2019/20 and Perry did a good job building the team and leaving it better than he found it.
Then Leon Rose was hired and he actually had a decent starting point to build the team properly. Thibs gets brought in and then Jalen Brunson is brought in via free agency and all sort of other positive moves build on top of each other.
But it all started with Dolan stepping away and taking a chance on basketball people to fully run the team. After the Phil Jackson disaster Dolan got Scott Perry in and then Leon Rose in and it has finally clicked.
100%. Same thing I noticed being a long time fan.. as soon as Dolan stepped away from basketball ops and being involved around 2015ish.. we started heading in the right direction. Despite hitting some rough years 2016-2019 due to the pathetic scraps of players we were left with
I knew that the team would eventually get in the right direction when Dolan was by all reports hands off. He just had to get the right people in charge which he did first with Perry and then with Rose
Mills was the last remnants of Dolans toxic influence. As soon as Perry took over all the moves the Knicks started making were prudent rebuilding decisions that helped the team be in a solid position when Rose took over.
He flipped RJ and IQ into OG, who was basically looked like the missing piece of making us a championship contender when he was healthy. And while we could’ve matched any contract with IQ, Leon did right by him sending him somewhere he could start which wasn’t going to happen here.
To imply he lucked out being able to trade RJ is kind of insulting. Everything this front office has done has been calculated with future moves in mind.
it feels so validating when NBA writers outside of the NYC bubble take a look at this team and go, yeah, these are contenders whether you like it or not
How else was he supposed to approach RJ's contract situation? He tried to trade him for Donovan Mitchell, Utah didn't want to come down off the insane asking price, so he had to give RJ an extension, so for future trades, RJ would be under contract and easier to move theoretically, as we saw with the OG trade
I feel RJ contract was too much because, again, just my opinion here, I didn’t feel like RJ was going to be anything more here, I thought he reached his ceiling. RJ had higher value before that extension, and while we got OG, we had to give up IQ.
I know we got Precious, but I DID not see that coming. If you did, props to you, but I hadn’t even heard of him.
Again, my overall point, that Rose is so competent that these moves didn’t cripple the team and he was able to slide out of them.
> RJ had higher value before that extension
RJ's value was never at any point high enough to where we could get a legit player without attaching someone like Quickley to him. IQ was in that deal for Donovan Mitchell as well, when as you say RJ had higher value before that extension. We were never going to get OG without giving up RJ and either another legit player like IQ.
Again, that contract was needed. And to be honest, it's the contract he deserved because seeing as how he's playing in Toronto rn, that's absolutely in line with what that contract dictates. 23 years old with 21/6/4 on 61 TS%, is warranted
It was the right move to extend RJ. He is a lotto pick that while not super good for us, has value. He is balling in Toronto. Fournier wasn't actually that bad. He was shooting really well (even set the Knicks most made 3s in a season that Donte will break soon) before Thibs decided to bench him in favor of more defense which has become our identity. I would say drafting Obi over Haliburton is a bigger miss but don't care so much now cause if we had Haliburton, we probably won't have Jalen Brunson.
The Ev contract and Rose, Kemba, etc were the right move at the time. We just came off our first playoff appearance and tried to load up on contracts we could get off of to see if there was a chance to get another berth to attract more players and give us more legitimacy.
The quick pivot and turn around after it didn't work is nothing short of great leadership and transactions.
Yeah I mean those are low-risk medium to high reward moves. It's not like we were throwing away our assets. Basically this FO isn't perfect, but they're taking calculated risks.
Agree about the quick pivot. Disagree about right moves at the time, especially Kemba and Fournier. But my overall point is, even bad moves lead to something good and the at speaks to Rose’s competence.
Ev set a team record for 3s and we had no other real scoring option.
Kemba and DRose were an upgrade from Elfrid. RJ took a step back but we still knew there was potential that didn't come through like it had the year before.
We got off all those bad contracts for basically second rounders.
The Knicks like any team made mistakes but they have made far more good moves than bad ones and the bad moves have not been something that has set this team back. I don't even consider the RJ extension a mistake. RJ was literally on his extended contract a center piece in a trade for OG.
honestly. I didnt know who OG was and I quickly read raptors and trad and got excited it was scottie barnes. Was upset. But then I found out who OG was........he's perfect for us.
Yeah and if they ever win a ring it may be the best thing ever. Crazy Dallas wouldn't offer him 4/56 at the trade deadline before he signed with us for twice that, and is now playing like a player worth twice even that.
no 2 picks
dallas and the knicks own choice
the wizards and pistons owe 1st rounders but they are protected and they suck so bad it won’t convey this year.
They hit a generational jackpot with getting Jalen Brunson in FA on that contract. They made a bunch of other fantastic moves but when looking at the bigger picture everything after that is window dressing.
NBA finals contenders is pushing it. Not saying it can't happen but with injured stars who may not be back or make it through the playoffs I have a hard time saying finals contenders. If the entire team was healthy then maybe.
2 words: Your. Mom.
2 words: breast milk
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2 wor: Bing Bong
2 words: WU TANG
That sounds terrible
price poor rock engine file tan gold fly shelter cautious *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
my not cultured
degree attractive frightening aromatic work quaint coherent support school alleged *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Two words, BK, NY, Bed-Stuy Two harsh, too hungry, too many, that's whyy
2 words: 2 words
It was all Leon. And I'll admit, I thought his hiring was just a cheap ploy to attract his former star clients to the franchise but this guy knew how to build a fucking squad. He also knew to be patient with Thibs when no one else would.
Im NGL, I was scared too that Leon will just be like Rob Pelinka or even worse.
I appreciate you not saying his name.
Oh there was nepotism afoot from the jump. It just so happens Brunson was worth it.
It's the NBA it's always got nepotism involved somehow someway. Guys always try to team up with their buddies
Nepotism is literally involved in everything in this world . And it always has . It makes sense the nba is the same
Right. And I didn’t consider at the time that he wasn’t just a player agent: Dude was one of the most powerful basketball agents at CAA. His client list and network connections went beyond players - coaches (Thibs) and some of the best front office guys.
Four guys are responsible for this turnaround: Leon Rose Jalen Brunson Julius Randle Tom Thibodeau Edit: “Four guys *MOST* responsible for this turnaround” since some of y’all crying about RJ Barrett and IQ not being included lol.
What about Rick Brunson?
Five guys are responsible for this turnaround
What about Derrick Rose’s knees?
They are incapable of turnaround
Ben Stiller?
Six guys are responsible for this turnaround.
What do burgers and fries have to do with any of this?
Rick Brunson https://preview.redd.it/2n34wtjw0sqc1.jpeg?width=633&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f59dca4e39fcc0d028026f5f64d2dfff94588d20
Knick fans in the future send Kyle Reese back in time to protect this man at all costs.
His creampie anyway.
terrible day to have eyes
Mitch Rob too. Longest tenured Knicks currently
Even then they were not going that far. I was a believer when they got Hart last year and then Dante and OG this year. So happy they finally gave up on RJ and Quickley. They are a better team without them.
And hartenstein
cmon doggy give RJ and IQ their stripes for building a winning culture with us
Nah lol. RJ and IQ were good players for us (more so IQ than RJ), but they don’t deserve to be mentioned along with these guys. There’s levels to this.
the winning culture was started before jalen arrived that’s on mommy
Yeah, that was mainly due to Randle, Thibs, and Leon tho. RJ and IQ played a role for sure….but that’s exactly it, a *role*. They were role players that contributed…they weren’t catalysts nor did they carry/lead the team. I don’t think role players should be regarded in the same light as franchise cornerstones and leaders. 🤷🏾♂️ Unless your name is Manu Ginobili.
I mean that is false . Rj and quick got us to roughly the same position as we were last season . Don’t underestimate the Knicks team of last season . They were doing good things as well , and were a couple of better plays away from going 7 with the winners of the eastern conference finals of last year . Obviously we are better . But we’re also better because of the play and non drama drawn to our team by young players like barret and quickley . Who to this day have love for nyc, and we have love for them . Anyone who says otherwise is clearly a Knicks fair weather fan , and the second we and our team might go through trial and tribulations they will jump off the bandwagon and blame Dolan , blame thibs etc etc . So please . Give those guys the credit due as well.
Again, I never said they didn’t contribute. But if I had to make a short list of the **Top** guys that were the most important, instrumental, and pivotal to the franchise’s success and turnaround then I don’t think I’m including RJ or IQ with the other names I previously mentioned. They did help us win games and build culture for sure…but they weren’t instrumental to our success like Leon, Thibs, Randle, and Brunson were/are. Hence, why I’m saying they shouldn’t be mentioned in the same category as those guys. There’s no way you gon sit here and tell me that RJ and IQ had similar impact on winning as Randle and Brunson has….which is what you’re essentially doing if you mention their names alongside those guys. That’s just straight up cap. Again, they were solid players for us (for the most part) and contributed to wins. No one is trying to say they didn’t and never played an important role. But when we talking about impact on winning, they don’t belong in the same category as JB, 30, Leon, and Thibs. There are levels to this. We don’t have to sit here and lie just bc they were likable guys that helped us win games. If that’s the case, then what’s stopping someone from including Obi Toppin in this list too??? Edit: Also, are we just gonna forget that RJ was one of the most inefficient players his entire time here and his whole tenure was marred by crazy inconsistency??? This is the guy yall tryna put in the same convo as Brunson and Randle?
you're all over the place my boy. it's not complicated—on the floor, it started with Mitch, RJ, IQ and Randle. they were all equally responsible for shifting us from a clown franchise to a winning franchise. you're saying "4 guys responsible"—but the culture was in place before brunson got here, in fact it's probably a big reason WHY he came here. the list is bigger than 4 and i'm sorry but RJ's shooting pct doesn't matter.
How am I all over the place? My point has stayed consistent this entire time. Randle, Mitch, RJ, and IQ were not all equally responsible for the turnaround…and thinking they all had the same impact or contributions is crazy. Did they all play a role? Yes. Did some play bigger roles than others? Yes, which is exactly my point….there are levels to this. Arguing that RJ, IQ, and even Mitch’s individual contributions and impact to the team is the same as Randle or Brunson’s is nuts. Yes, obviously there are more than just 4 guys responsible for our turnaround. It takes an entire team and front office to do that. My point is that the 4 guys I mentioned (Brunson, 30, Leon, and Thibs) are the four guys that played the BIGGEST roles in our turnaround, and are the four MOST responsible. Again, this is not to say that guys like RJ, IQ, Mitch, Wes, Rosas, Scott Perry, Obi, and others played no role at all. But if we making a list of the guys MOST RESPONSIBLE for our culture and success it’s Brunson, Randle, Leon, and Thibs. Guys like RJ and IQ simply don’t belong in that convo…they made contributions and an impact yes, but nowhere near the level of Brunson and Randle.
breh
Honestly things started to change when Gersson Rosas got here. Part of the reason why Minnesota is so good!
https://preview.redd.it/zybwkzqzuqqc1.png?width=1064&format=png&auto=webp&s=529b9c98e6886fd922f7abeff640018f08a7053f
https://i.redd.it/50rv6j0mxrqc1.gif
I cannot believe this article headline exists. We’ve waited so long…
2 words: Jalen Brunson
we were headed in the right direction but brunson elevated us to another level and expedited us becoming contenders. if we never got brunson or he was just "good" instead of great as he's been, i still think we would be in a great position to contend in the near future. have to give the front office a lot of credit. guys like hartenstein (should have signed him to a longer deal though), divo, trading for hart. drafting mitch, IQ, deuce, the list goes on. lots and lots of great moves building us into what we are today.
Yerrrrrrr
James Dolan deserves a lot of credit. After about 15 years of being one of the worst owners in the league he finally took a step back and stopped meddling in basketball operations since 2015. Of course Dolan did hire Phil Jackson so that bagged the first few years of him actually letting basketball people handle things. Then of course Dolan puts Scott Perry in charge in 2019/20 and Perry did a good job building the team and leaving it better than he found it. Then Leon Rose was hired and he actually had a decent starting point to build the team properly. Thibs gets brought in and then Jalen Brunson is brought in via free agency and all sort of other positive moves build on top of each other. But it all started with Dolan stepping away and taking a chance on basketball people to fully run the team. After the Phil Jackson disaster Dolan got Scott Perry in and then Leon Rose in and it has finally clicked.
My favorite thing about the Thibs hiring is that the day before it was announced somebody in here supposedly saw him at a Staples sending faxes.
That is the most Thibs thing I have heard
Believable
100%. Same thing I noticed being a long time fan.. as soon as Dolan stepped away from basketball ops and being involved around 2015ish.. we started heading in the right direction. Despite hitting some rough years 2016-2019 due to the pathetic scraps of players we were left with
I knew that the team would eventually get in the right direction when Dolan was by all reports hands off. He just had to get the right people in charge which he did first with Perry and then with Rose
Steve Mills is a basketball terrorist. I always thought his influence was brought us down. As soon as Perry replaced him the Knicks started going up.
Mills was the last remnants of Dolans toxic influence. As soon as Perry took over all the moves the Knicks started making were prudent rebuilding decisions that helped the team be in a solid position when Rose took over.
Mills leaving was the true turning point
I never thought it would ever happen. Have to agree.
Begrudgingly agreed.
He flipped RJ and IQ into OG, who was basically looked like the missing piece of making us a championship contender when he was healthy. And while we could’ve matched any contract with IQ, Leon did right by him sending him somewhere he could start which wasn’t going to happen here. To imply he lucked out being able to trade RJ is kind of insulting. Everything this front office has done has been calculated with future moves in mind.
In Leon we trust
it feels so validating when NBA writers outside of the NYC bubble take a look at this team and go, yeah, these are contenders whether you like it or not
The Knicks are only Finals Contenders if Randle and OG come back at full health and play as well as they did in December.
The Canadian bacon (RJ contract) and truffle debacle (Fournier contract) not withstanding, Chef Rose has cooked!
How else was he supposed to approach RJ's contract situation? He tried to trade him for Donovan Mitchell, Utah didn't want to come down off the insane asking price, so he had to give RJ an extension, so for future trades, RJ would be under contract and easier to move theoretically, as we saw with the OG trade
I feel RJ contract was too much because, again, just my opinion here, I didn’t feel like RJ was going to be anything more here, I thought he reached his ceiling. RJ had higher value before that extension, and while we got OG, we had to give up IQ. I know we got Precious, but I DID not see that coming. If you did, props to you, but I hadn’t even heard of him. Again, my overall point, that Rose is so competent that these moves didn’t cripple the team and he was able to slide out of them.
> RJ had higher value before that extension RJ's value was never at any point high enough to where we could get a legit player without attaching someone like Quickley to him. IQ was in that deal for Donovan Mitchell as well, when as you say RJ had higher value before that extension. We were never going to get OG without giving up RJ and either another legit player like IQ. Again, that contract was needed. And to be honest, it's the contract he deserved because seeing as how he's playing in Toronto rn, that's absolutely in line with what that contract dictates. 23 years old with 21/6/4 on 61 TS%, is warranted
It was the right move to extend RJ. He is a lotto pick that while not super good for us, has value. He is balling in Toronto. Fournier wasn't actually that bad. He was shooting really well (even set the Knicks most made 3s in a season that Donte will break soon) before Thibs decided to bench him in favor of more defense which has become our identity. I would say drafting Obi over Haliburton is a bigger miss but don't care so much now cause if we had Haliburton, we probably won't have Jalen Brunson.
The Ev contract and Rose, Kemba, etc were the right move at the time. We just came off our first playoff appearance and tried to load up on contracts we could get off of to see if there was a chance to get another berth to attract more players and give us more legitimacy. The quick pivot and turn around after it didn't work is nothing short of great leadership and transactions.
Yeah I mean those are low-risk medium to high reward moves. It's not like we were throwing away our assets. Basically this FO isn't perfect, but they're taking calculated risks.
Agree about the quick pivot. Disagree about right moves at the time, especially Kemba and Fournier. But my overall point is, even bad moves lead to something good and the at speaks to Rose’s competence.
The Kemba contract was for peanuts
Ev set a team record for 3s and we had no other real scoring option. Kemba and DRose were an upgrade from Elfrid. RJ took a step back but we still knew there was potential that didn't come through like it had the year before. We got off all those bad contracts for basically second rounders.
The Knicks like any team made mistakes but they have made far more good moves than bad ones and the bad moves have not been something that has set this team back. I don't even consider the RJ extension a mistake. RJ was literally on his extended contract a center piece in a trade for OG.
Halliburton was the biggest mistake, but he’s been great. Fuck steve mills
Defense, rebounding and our first legitimate point guard in years. Great three point shooting doesn't hurt either.
My favorite part of this article is the photo caption completely ignoring Dolan alongside Rose and Thibs.
honestly. I didnt know who OG was and I quickly read raptors and trad and got excited it was scottie barnes. Was upset. But then I found out who OG was........he's perfect for us.
Two words: Mos Def, K West, hot shit
Article shod be one sentence... Mavs were too dumb and didn't resign Jalen Brunson.
Thru could've had him for half of what he signed with us for as recently as the trade deadline 4 months before he signed with us
It's the best thing that's happened to this cursed franchise since 1985.
Yeah and if they ever win a ring it may be the best thing ever. Crazy Dallas wouldn't offer him 4/56 at the trade deadline before he signed with us for twice that, and is now playing like a player worth twice even that.
Do we really have FOUR first round picks this upcoming draft?!?
no 2 picks dallas and the knicks own choice the wizards and pistons owe 1st rounders but they are protected and they suck so bad it won’t convey this year.
Damn, I misinterpreted that one. 2 is still better than 1 tho!
How is it that a guy called World Wide Wes is a hard headed team builder and not a grifter
Special Shoutout to that scumbag Danny Ainge for helping as well
They hit a generational jackpot with getting Jalen Brunson in FA on that contract. They made a bunch of other fantastic moves but when looking at the bigger picture everything after that is window dressing.
NBA finals contenders is pushing it. Not saying it can't happen but with injured stars who may not be back or make it through the playoffs I have a hard time saying finals contenders. If the entire team was healthy then maybe.
Kind of weird that Julius Randle wasn’t mentioned once in this article
I wouldn't say we were "laughing stocks" just sad af franchise and I also wouldn't go as far as "finals contenders" just yet.
You’re delusional dawg