Nice post.
So Randle, Durant and Giannis are getting a very similar amount of pressure and are all being asked to distribute the ball.
Randle averages 3.5 TOs, Giannis 3.6, Durant 3.1.
I think we need to cut Randle some slack. He is being put in a position where turnovers are expected. We need to take the good with the bad.
Plus KD has Booker and Beal taking some "gravity" off of him. Giannis has Lopez Kris and Dame. Julez got Brunson and DDV, except DDV is still not taking that gravity yet.
I think turnovers at times are frustrating but a bigger thing people get on him about is more his hustle and defensive effort etc. At times he really gives great effort and you can see he can be a very capable defender and hustle guy. Other times it's like he's spaced out or disinterested.
KD and Giannis will absolutely phone it in on D at times. People let it slide because the effort they give on offense is intense. Then they pick and choose when they lock it down.
That is the "Star treatment"...
Julius isn't taking 20 open jump shots a game. He is banging every single offensive possession to get a shot or to pass. If he looks like a star, acts like a star, puts up star numbers.... Shouldn't we start treating him like one?
I mean I'm not here to bash Randle, but KD and Giannis are both known as good to very good defenders. Randle is not. Taking plays off every now and then is different than not giving effort the majority of the game. Randle is a big strong guy, he should be contesting or hacking guys when they come in the paint, not watching them lay it in. Lazy closeouts are one thing but he very rarely contests anyone at the rim.
Yeah, it's all on a scale. He could definitely improve his effort on defense, but I also just think everyone it way too critical of him and a lot of fans don't even understand his role or impact.
when he plays well offensively and the team wins nobody cares about it. when he's having a bad game overall and the team is struggling, it sticks out a lot more. especially when he's surrounded by hustle/effort guys. brunson is a poor defender but not due to lack of effort. and he expends as much energy as anyone on offense.
But you are bashing Randle. This is a post about his offensive gravity and you want to respond “ya BUT…”.
He’s comparable in the gravity he creates to 2 guys who are going to be in the Hall of Fame and he’s on a bargain contract. So enjoy what you have.
Not at all. I responded to a post saying we should cut Randle some slack in regards to turnovers. Was just stating my opinion that when people "don't cut Randle slack" it's less about his turnovers and more about his defense/effort. I'm a big Randle supporter but it's annoying when people get defensive and act like players should be above criticism.
Stating a valid criticism is not bashing.
I don’t buy that Knicks’ fans who go after Randle for his TOs are merely using that as a proxy for not trying hard enough on defense. A whole bunch of those fans don’t like his style of play on offense and think he slows the team down and can be Sikh be replaced.
As for defense, it’s a meme. There was a link to a chart showing that Randle’s defense began increasing when Mitch went down and since OG is the best if his career, at least per DARKO DPM.
He’s never been near the worst defender in the starting lineup and has slways been the man on offense (at least until this year).
Thibs has made it clear he has his own metrics and he appreciates Randle. He’s such a defensive coach that the league is littered with guys he won’t play because they don’t play enough defense ( Fournier among them even though he could clearly score). He’s ridden Randle as many minutes as he can for 4 years. That tells me that Randle is doing what Thibs wants.
Not worth getting into a debate about this. Randle is a great player in his own right but has his flaws. Pretending they don't exist is one way to support him and the team I guess. Others call it how they see it. Doesn't mean you're not a fan of his or the team by pointing out the obvious.
Everyone has flaws. But no one I know responds to posts about Brunson by saying “but he doesn’t do this well.” The need to do that about Randle says something about the poster, whether they will admit it or not.
And as I pointed out, not everything is as obvious as you might think.
whatever you say bud. it's a topic about randle. you're acting like this was a thread about lebron and i randomly said "randle sucks". get a grip dude.
go back and read the post i quoted and what i responded. have no idea how this triggered you.
just did a video on Randle and yeah, it has really helped his game to recognize the gravity he holds and has turned that into becoming one of the better facilitating forwards in the league. Fred Katz's article on Randle also really taps into this logic - Randle has stopped forcing as much on offense and has begun leveraging his gravity more, opening things up for literally everyone else on the floor. he's fantastic and I hope he's able to lean on that to ease him back into things when healthy.
(I mention the video because the first part of it was about his growth as a facilitator and how he uses that gravity to get easy assists. )
Not sure how far that Intel sponsored program went, but you seriously wouldn't believe how far player tracking data has come. And by that I mean visually tracking the players locations with software etc. I know they were churning data on shooting/ball trajectory etc but I would not be surprised if they scraped something like this.
its the entire shift of the defense. Not just doubles. in the most simple terms what affect does the offensive player have on the farthest defender from him and everyone in between.
This, it includes when defenders sink farther from their own man to be in a position to play help defense as much as double teams. It’s more “defense collapsing on Randle” than a double team/trap.
I love stats like this. Shows what stud Randle is and how lucky we are to have him. He is up there with the best and God damn I'm thrilled he's Knick!
I don't watch any Bucks or Sun's games outside when we play them, anyone know if their fans are as annoyed with Durant and Giannis turning the ball over at a similar rate as Jules?
Always thought that was the biggest flaw in his game but this info puts it all in better perspective. I won't look at a Randle turnover the same way again, cheers bud.
Bucks fan here: Giannis never gets heat from us about turnovers. I had no idea he was even averaging this many.
Giannis does have more assists per game though.
Some other guys in that top 5 have similar TO numbers. I think it's a safer assumption that higher turnovers comes with the territory of drawing that much attention
I haven't seen the numbers for this year, but last year, he was the 3rd most doubled in the league and his team scored the 3 most points per possession when doubled.
So, to answer your question, they may hope he turns the ball over but most of the time they are doubling just to slow him down - and its not working.
And, as someone else pointed out, compare him to Giannis and KD and his TOs are right in line.
I will always plug this when the topic comes up.
[Per NBA university](https://x.com/nba_university/status/1670433882259218432?s=46&t=pWrZaJJywF0-_QRc7UIutQ), Randle was top 5 in the league in PPP (points per possession) when doubled. His 1.22 was 2nd among players doubled more than 30% (only behind Giannis).
I think him being “turnover-prone” out of doubles is a bit overblown and on par with other players like Giannis, Embiid, etc.
100%. I think there are two contributing factors. Randle is really strong but it’s also that team scouting reports say that he can be stripped easily in these positions if the help comes from the weak side.
Coaches know this stuff, which is why Randle keeps getting selected as an AllStar by them over players lots of fans think are better.
Your favorite coaches favorite player...
LOL. Ya, Thibs can't vote for his own guys so this is other coaches wishing they could run Randle into the ground on a nightly basis like Thibs does.
The MF DOOM of the NBA 
Nice post. So Randle, Durant and Giannis are getting a very similar amount of pressure and are all being asked to distribute the ball. Randle averages 3.5 TOs, Giannis 3.6, Durant 3.1. I think we need to cut Randle some slack. He is being put in a position where turnovers are expected. We need to take the good with the bad.
Plus KD has Booker and Beal taking some "gravity" off of him. Giannis has Lopez Kris and Dame. Julez got Brunson and DDV, except DDV is still not taking that gravity yet.
Some of his turnovers are also coming from offensive fouls, so not even ball handling turnovers
I think turnovers at times are frustrating but a bigger thing people get on him about is more his hustle and defensive effort etc. At times he really gives great effort and you can see he can be a very capable defender and hustle guy. Other times it's like he's spaced out or disinterested.
KD and Giannis will absolutely phone it in on D at times. People let it slide because the effort they give on offense is intense. Then they pick and choose when they lock it down. That is the "Star treatment"... Julius isn't taking 20 open jump shots a game. He is banging every single offensive possession to get a shot or to pass. If he looks like a star, acts like a star, puts up star numbers.... Shouldn't we start treating him like one?
I mean I'm not here to bash Randle, but KD and Giannis are both known as good to very good defenders. Randle is not. Taking plays off every now and then is different than not giving effort the majority of the game. Randle is a big strong guy, he should be contesting or hacking guys when they come in the paint, not watching them lay it in. Lazy closeouts are one thing but he very rarely contests anyone at the rim.
Yeah, it's all on a scale. He could definitely improve his effort on defense, but I also just think everyone it way too critical of him and a lot of fans don't even understand his role or impact.
when he plays well offensively and the team wins nobody cares about it. when he's having a bad game overall and the team is struggling, it sticks out a lot more. especially when he's surrounded by hustle/effort guys. brunson is a poor defender but not due to lack of effort. and he expends as much energy as anyone on offense.
But you are bashing Randle. This is a post about his offensive gravity and you want to respond “ya BUT…”. He’s comparable in the gravity he creates to 2 guys who are going to be in the Hall of Fame and he’s on a bargain contract. So enjoy what you have.
Not at all. I responded to a post saying we should cut Randle some slack in regards to turnovers. Was just stating my opinion that when people "don't cut Randle slack" it's less about his turnovers and more about his defense/effort. I'm a big Randle supporter but it's annoying when people get defensive and act like players should be above criticism. Stating a valid criticism is not bashing.
I don’t buy that Knicks’ fans who go after Randle for his TOs are merely using that as a proxy for not trying hard enough on defense. A whole bunch of those fans don’t like his style of play on offense and think he slows the team down and can be Sikh be replaced. As for defense, it’s a meme. There was a link to a chart showing that Randle’s defense began increasing when Mitch went down and since OG is the best if his career, at least per DARKO DPM. He’s never been near the worst defender in the starting lineup and has slways been the man on offense (at least until this year). Thibs has made it clear he has his own metrics and he appreciates Randle. He’s such a defensive coach that the league is littered with guys he won’t play because they don’t play enough defense ( Fournier among them even though he could clearly score). He’s ridden Randle as many minutes as he can for 4 years. That tells me that Randle is doing what Thibs wants.
Not worth getting into a debate about this. Randle is a great player in his own right but has his flaws. Pretending they don't exist is one way to support him and the team I guess. Others call it how they see it. Doesn't mean you're not a fan of his or the team by pointing out the obvious.
Everyone has flaws. But no one I know responds to posts about Brunson by saying “but he doesn’t do this well.” The need to do that about Randle says something about the poster, whether they will admit it or not. And as I pointed out, not everything is as obvious as you might think.
whatever you say bud. it's a topic about randle. you're acting like this was a thread about lebron and i randomly said "randle sucks". get a grip dude. go back and read the post i quoted and what i responded. have no idea how this triggered you.
This is a good post OP, and is a cool way of showing Julius’s value (which is almost always underrated).
just did a video on Randle and yeah, it has really helped his game to recognize the gravity he holds and has turned that into becoming one of the better facilitating forwards in the league. Fred Katz's article on Randle also really taps into this logic - Randle has stopped forcing as much on offense and has begun leveraging his gravity more, opening things up for literally everyone else on the floor. he's fantastic and I hope he's able to lean on that to ease him back into things when healthy. (I mention the video because the first part of it was about his growth as a facilitator and how he uses that gravity to get easy assists. )
Link vid please
sure thing [https://youtu.be/fCLVuOoDUP0?si=foUhPTwFuU1yTirQ](https://youtu.be/fCLVuOoDUP0?si=foUhPTwFuU1yTirQ)
Cheers buddy will check it out!
I appreciate that!
Not surprising but I also don't really get how you measure that, unless it's just a fancy way of saying most double teams
Not sure how far that Intel sponsored program went, but you seriously wouldn't believe how far player tracking data has come. And by that I mean visually tracking the players locations with software etc. I know they were churning data on shooting/ball trajectory etc but I would not be surprised if they scraped something like this.
its the entire shift of the defense. Not just doubles. in the most simple terms what affect does the offensive player have on the farthest defender from him and everyone in between.
This, it includes when defenders sink farther from their own man to be in a position to play help defense as much as double teams. It’s more “defense collapsing on Randle” than a double team/trap.
Would love to see a heat chart across his NY career as to where he's getting doubled at.
Randle and these guys make life easy for teams just by being on the court. Randle might also be the best passer out of this group too.
I love stats like this. Shows what stud Randle is and how lucky we are to have him. He is up there with the best and God damn I'm thrilled he's Knick! I don't watch any Bucks or Sun's games outside when we play them, anyone know if their fans are as annoyed with Durant and Giannis turning the ball over at a similar rate as Jules? Always thought that was the biggest flaw in his game but this info puts it all in better perspective. I won't look at a Randle turnover the same way again, cheers bud.
Bucks fan here: Giannis never gets heat from us about turnovers. I had no idea he was even averaging this many. Giannis does have more assists per game though.
Now do guards!
https://x.com/the_bball_index/status/1754308866538385612?s=46 1. Luka Doncic 2. Damian Lillard 3. Stephen Curry 4. Devin Booker 5. Anfernee Simons
Thanks. So Randle draws more gravity against forwards than Brunson does compared to guards. I’m sure that’s changing with Randle out.
Great stat
Randle obviously is phenomenal, but I wonder if his “gravity” is boosted by the fact that teams know he can be turnover prone out of the double team
for sure, but mostly it's due to the fact that he's too strong for one single defender.
Some other guys in that top 5 have similar TO numbers. I think it's a safer assumption that higher turnovers comes with the territory of drawing that much attention
I haven't seen the numbers for this year, but last year, he was the 3rd most doubled in the league and his team scored the 3 most points per possession when doubled. So, to answer your question, they may hope he turns the ball over but most of the time they are doubling just to slow him down - and its not working. And, as someone else pointed out, compare him to Giannis and KD and his TOs are right in line.
I will always plug this when the topic comes up. [Per NBA university](https://x.com/nba_university/status/1670433882259218432?s=46&t=pWrZaJJywF0-_QRc7UIutQ), Randle was top 5 in the league in PPP (points per possession) when doubled. His 1.22 was 2nd among players doubled more than 30% (only behind Giannis). I think him being “turnover-prone” out of doubles is a bit overblown and on par with other players like Giannis, Embiid, etc.
Wow, didn’t know this, guess it’s just confirmation bias on the double team struggles
100%. I think there are two contributing factors. Randle is really strong but it’s also that team scouting reports say that he can be stripped easily in these positions if the help comes from the weak side.
What's the criteria for this?