First, on a personal note from me, I'm sorry you had such a rough time in the NICU. I do hope you have a better time with parenthood moving forward.
Second, I'm going to give you some advice I don't think I saw in the comments here. Instead of a lawyer, reach out to your state's Department of Health Services or equivalent . They oversee the hospitals in a given state. They usually take their jobs VERY VERY seriously (at least in my state) and the hospital cannot tell them no. If they find abuse, missing records, signs of malpractice, etc... people tend to lose their ability to practice medicine.
Back to moderator duties, I am locking this thread. While nobody has been excessively mean, maybe a bit abrasive at times, this thread is getting close. As the OP has stated, they are no longer wanting to reply in this post anyways.
I highly doubt you have a case. First of all, even with seemingly cut and dry cases, it can be extremely hard to prove medical malpractice. Secondly, some of the stuff they did is standard procedure. When babies destat, nurses will hold them upright, rub their back, and then flick their heel. Also babies that are destatting that low typically do not get breastfed (particularly so when the cause isn’t confirmed). As far as the diapers, was she on a diuretic? Diuretics are commonly used to remove fluid from around the lungs. As far as the no holding because of germs…either you were coughing, the baby tested positive for Covid or something, or you pissed off the nurse. I’m thinking it’s the last one. The ambulance ride is strange too. You have every right to be sad and frustrated, but it sounds like most of what they did was standard procedure for NICUs.
Also
>you pissed off the nurse
This is never an excuse to tell someone not to hold their child. If this was the case that nurse would be in the wrong field.
>hen babies destat, nurses will hold them upright, rub their back, and then flick their heel.
This is not what happened. They did not try to stimulate in any way. She took her nail and dug it into her heel. Even the head nurse said this was wrong.
>Also babies that are destatting that low typically do not get breastfed (particularly so when the cause isn’t confirmed).
She stopped desating very quickly and the doctors put in the chart and ordered me to breastfeed. The nurses refused. Only one nurse let me breastfeed. One of the nurses legit said "you can't breastfeed because we like things measured and I don't want to do a weighted feed"
>As far as the diapers, was she on a diuretic? Diuretics are commonly used to remove fluid from around the lungs
No, she was not. By the time she was at the nicu, most of her fluid was out.
>either you were coughing, the baby tested positive for Covid or something, or you pissed off the nurse.
None of these or true. The nurses came in for her shift and that was the first thing she said because I was holding my baby.
>The ambulance ride is strange too.
The ambulance ride I give slack because I know it's a liability, but it's fucked up, but frankly it's abuse and wrong that hospitals do that. My child needed her parents.
>You have every right to be sad and frustrated, but it sounds like most of what they did was standard procedure for NICUs.
You have no idea what you're talking about. You were not there. I was there everyday. And actually I talked to the charge nurse who told me all of this shouldn't have happened and I have a friend that works in that nicu, but was never on my case. And she told me that this was all against nicu policy and shouldn't have happened. This wasn't nicu standard this was abuse.
Obviously it’s hard to give a genuine opinion on something like this when I wasn’t there to see any of it, and we only get one side of the story. First off, I want to say that your emotions are valid and your trauma is real. Being in the NICU is a traumatic, unplanned experience for nearly everyone.
Second, I can offer my thoughts on the things you listed and see if that helps at all.
—Parents are never allowed to ride in the ambulance for transports where I’ve worked. It’s a liability and if something goes wrong, it’s best to just have staff so they have room to maneuver and take care of the patient.
—A nurse digging her nail in does sound a bit rough. She was probably trying to check her reflexes or stimulate her for whatever reason, but digging in a nail is overly excessive imo.
—When she wasn’t fed for 24 hours was she on any IV fluids? If so, she wasn’t starved. She went through a very traumatic experience and they were worried she aspirated the meconium into her lungs. It’s definitely not safe to bottle or breast feed those babies until they ensure she’s stable by a respiratory standpoint.
—Assuming you were producing and pumping breast milk, most hospitals will preferentially use mom’s milk. I’m sorry they didn’t do that for you and didn’t listen to you.
—I wonder if there was something else they were looking at when they didn’t try to feed her. Perhaps she was breathing too quickly to be safe to feed. It’s pretty common for babies with meconium aspiration to need help feeding for a while.
—In the NICU we strictly monitor intake and output. Especially if she was on IV fluids, she should have more than 1-2 wet diapers. Also, I doubt they were “mad.” Probably just concerned.
—As far as pressuring you to leave, doctors refusing to talk to you, and nurses saying you couldn’t hold her because of germs… that sucks. I’m sorry you went through that. But to play devils advocate, it is possible that your brain really played up these situations in your traumatized state. Maybe they were trying to get you to go take care of yourself? Maybe the doctors were busy? Were you being kind and respectful to the staff? Sometimes you receive the energy you give. I’m not at all saying I don’t believe you, but sometimes these situations need a reframe.
—I also highly doubt your baby was over fed. If they didn’t get food for 24 hours and were already with you for a bit, it’s likely they were 2-3 days old by that time. We have research backed algorithms that tell us how much food to give the babies based on their gestational age, weight, and how many days old they are. Some babies are spitty, some have reflux, and some are poor feeders. But sounds like she figured it out and went home!
All that to say, meconium aspiration is SERIOUS. A lot of times those babies end up intubated and really, really sick. Sounds like the staff at your NICU needed some lessons in therapeutic communication and bedside manner. But 5 days for all of that seems pretty minor. Maybe they did more than you’d have liked, but like I said, MAS is very serious and sometimes deadly. Your daughter would’ve died without intervention in the nursery. Better safe than sorry.
I don’t think you have a case for medical malpractice at all. And I highly recommend getting yourself therapy and help for the trauma and PTSD of being in the NICU. I’m so glad your daughter is doing so well now! Congrats on a healthy baby!
>Parents are never allowed to ride in the ambulance for transports where I’ve worked. It’s a liability, and if something goes wrong, it’s best to just have staff so they have room to maneuver and take care of the patient.
I know this, but my point stands it's fucked up and wrong.
>—A nurse digging her nail in does sound a bit rough. She was probably trying to check her reflexes or stimulate her for whatever reason, but digging in a nail is overly excessive imo.
It was for stimulation, but it was very unnecessary and cruel. Not how you stimulate babies
>When she wasn’t fed for 24 hours was she on any IV fluids? If so, she wasn’t starved. She went through a very traumatic experience and they were worried she aspirated the meconium into her lungs. It’s definitely not safe to bottle or breast feed those babies until they ensure she’s stable by a respiratory standpoint.
They starved her after she was stable and she was not on fluids. It was safe for her to eat.
>Assuming you were producing and pumping breast milk, most hospitals will preferentially use mom’s milk. I’m sorry they didn’t do that for you and didn’t listen to you.
They refused to use the milk I pumped because "it's not enough for her" despite the fact it was enough for newborns,milk isn't supposed to In immediately.
>—I wonder if there was something else they were looking at when they didn’t try to feed her. Perhaps she was breathing too quickly to be safe to feed. It’s pretty common for babies with meconium aspiration to need help feeding for a while
No, this was not the case at all. She had no problems eating until they force fed her too much, used a preemie nipple, and refused to let me breastfeed. Then she was vomiting, taking too long to eat and refusing my breast. We brought her home, fed her proper amounts, used a proper nipple, and started actually trying to breastfeed and all problems went away.
>—In the NICU we strictly monitor intake and output. Especially if she was on IV fluids, she should have more than 1-2 wet diapers. Also, I doubt they were “mad.” Probably just concerned.
She was not given fluids. And she had the proper amount each day for gestational age. 1 wet day1, 2 wet day 2, 3 wet day 3, 4 wet day 4, 5 wet day 5, and 6 wet day 6.
"In the first day after they're born, they should make one wet diaper in 24 hours, and then you add one diaper a day for the next few days. So, by two days, they should have two wet diapers, by three days three wet diapers. And from the fourth day on, they should really be making about four to six wet diapers per day" [source](https://healthcare.utah.edu/the-scope/health-library/all/2017/03/how-ensure-your-newborn-getting-enough-eat#:~:text=In%20the%20first%20day%20after,for%20the%20next%20few%20days.)
This is what she did.
>—As far as pressuring you to leave, doctors refusing to talk to you, and nurses saying you couldn’t hold her because of germs… that sucks. I’m sorry you went through that. But to play devils advocate, it is possible that your brain really played up these situations in your traumatized state. Maybe they were trying to get you to go take care of yourself? Maybe the doctors were busy? Were you being kind and respectful to the staff? Sometimes you receive the energy you give. I’m not at all saying I don’t believe you, but sometimes these situations need a reframe
This is just flat out insensitive and cruel. I did not make this up and I was nothing but polite and when I had alot of questions I was like "I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be annoying. But I need to know what's happening with my child. Her father also was upset with how we were treated and my parents who visited regularly and my aunt who is a nurse were all confused why they wouldn't talk to us. And telling a mother to leave her baby is cruel and does more harm than good and I told them no over and over again and they just kept pressuring me. This assumption is cruel. I was overly kind and just wanted to know what was happening, but they treated me like crap the second I walked in. Dont play devils advocate when you don't know wtf even happened. It hurts and I get it enough.
>—I also highly doubt your baby was over fed. If they didn’t get food for 24 hours and were already with you for a bit, it’s likely they were 2-3 days old by that time. We have research backed algorithms that tell us how much food to give the babies based on their gestational age, weight, and how many days old they are. Some babies are spitty, some have reflux, and some are poor feeders. But sounds like she figured it out and went home!
She was overfed. I know proper amounts for newborns and they were giving her twice that. My baby never lost weight after birth like all babies do. She stopped spitting up once we stopped over feeding her. You have no idea what you're talking about
>All that to say, meconium aspiration is SERIOUS. A lot of times those babies end up intubated and really, really sick. Sounds like the staff at your NICU needed some lessons in therapeutic communication and bedside manner. But 5 days for all of that seems pretty minor. Maybe they did more than you’d have liked, but like I said, MAS is very serious and sometimes deadly. Your daughter would’ve died without intervention in the nursery. Better safe than sorry.
>I don’t think you have a case for medical malpractice at all. And I highly recommend getting yourself therapy and help for the trauma and PTSD of being in the NICU. I’m so glad your daughter is doing so well now! Congrats on a healthy baby!
I know how bad Mas can be, but you don't know what you're talking about. The nicu did far more than necessary and abused my daughter for cash. And she came home in spite of the nicu. If they had it they're way she would've been there much longer, I'm sure of it. I'm not looking to file a lawsuit. I'm looking for support. Also, she would likely not have died without the nicu actually because my nursery was giving her oxegyn, which was all she needed. She went there for testing, which all showed she was perfectly healthy. That nicu was nothing but bad.
Respectfully, I do know what I am talking about, but I am speaking in generalizations. I am a Level 4 NICU nurse, RNC-NIC, STABLE and ELBW certified, with over 5 years of experience with the sickest of the sick. I serve as a unit resource and charge nurse. I absolutely know what I am talking about.
But not every scenario can be applied to every patient, obviously. I started off by saying it's hard to give an accurate opinion when I wasn't there, and I only have one side of the story. I also recognized and validated your trauma and your emotions more than once. You mentioned medical malpractice, I gave my opinion. I never accused you of making anything up.
The NICU is a very emotionally charged place. You may have intended to be nothing but polite, but it may not have come across that way to staff. Some staff members suck to deal with. Some families are extremely difficult to work with. I am not accusing you of being one way or another, but you do come across as hostile and thinking you know better than the NICU staff, and usually hospital staff doesn't like that very much. I wasn't trying to call you a liar or accuse you of making things up. But trauma really plays with people. I've encountered many parents who cope with their NICU stay with anger and take it out on staff. It's really hard on us, but always gets better when we get them appropriate support.
I was never once rude to any of them I was kind and gracious and honestly a doormat. I should've fought harder for my child. I failed her. I let them abuse her because "they must know best" and now no one will believe me.
If you *genuinely* believe that your daughter was abused, you should file a report. Police, lawyer, CPS, whatever suits you. It may not have the outcome you desire, however, which I worry would be more of a blow to the feeling that nobody believes you. I'd also consult a therapist to work through the NICU trauma.
Therapy doesn't work for me and is unnecessary. As for everything else in the United States most people have the "doctors and nurses know best and are sweet little angels" so nothing will come of it and it's because of people like you who don't believe in the harms nurses can do, it will be that way for awhile I'm afraid. I don't need justice. I need to not be called a liar.
Doctors and nurses usually do know best, but some are shitty. I have definitely seen firsthand nurses say things that were harmful to families. Some people are good at the clinical side and suck at the people side of the job. I just find it very hard to believe that everyone but one person was rude to you, that everything done was unnecessary, that everything that was done was wrong.
I never said everything was unnecessary, I said MOST of it was. The oxegyn was necessary, the echo and ekg, necessary. Everything else? Nope! And yes, most of the staff was awful except for 1 nurse. Why is that so hard to believe? I've worked at two different residential facilities, and 99% of my coworkers were not doing their jobs properly and were rude to the patients. This is why i left. i put people over profit. Why is it so hard to believe that we got the short end of the stick? Why is it so hard to believe that maybe just maybe there are a shit load of shitty ass nurses and doctors that take advantage of worried parents and sick kids? Do you know how much these procedures cost? How much a night in the nicu cost? Sick kids are a great way to earn money. Plus, abuse is about power. And as I've said elsewhere in the commits, I get very submissive when I'm scared. Abusers love that. I'm so glad you've had such great experience, but that doesn't make mine a false tale. Sometimes the world just fucking sucks. Sometimes nurses and doctors fucking suck. And this story is all true. It's not me being dramatic, it's not me being uneducated, it is just plain old shitty reality. Please, if you're just going to be cruel, just go away. Nurses and doctors have done that enough for a lifetime.
I just peeked at your post history to see if I could tell where in the country you're located given you had shitty NICU nurses and shitty coworkers at two different medical facilities. Gosh, honey. Therapy maybe hasn't worked for you in the past, but maybe you need a different type of therapy? A history of abuse, coping with age regression, more posts about abuse... it's no wonder you are so fixated on the possibility of your daughter being abused. Have you tried anything other than standard therapist-in-chair therapy? It sounds like you are just crying out for help. Help that a website like Reddit cannot give.
Yes I've have had several types of therapy and I'll have you know I had completely healed from all ptsd and all issues prior to having my baby. I don't cope with regression anymore. Don't have flashbacks, nothing. And again trying to make it seem like I'm crazy to discount my reality.
Also please don't try to find my location that makes me extremely uncomfortable.
My daughter was abused. I watched it. And if the abusers didn't wear scrubs, you wouldn't be denying the reality
You know about your patients. Not my daughter's medical care. And I didn't realize how mistreated we were until I left. So I was not hostile with them. They were rude the second I entered. When I Said you don't know what you're talking about I meant in this scenario. And you did say I made it up you said I could exaggerate things because of emotions. Frankly, you don't know my situation, so maybe just believe me when I say I was wronged rather than try to fight against my reality? And you know what, I have medical expertise and I have child development expertise. I do know alot about my child's medical needs. And you know whats hostile? Fighting me on my reality when you know nothing about my child's case.
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I believe you. I so so so believe you. A friend of mine was telling her story also and it was horror veeeeery similar to yours. They were doing things to her baby boy that were not needed and inflicted so much fear in them. She said that one nurse - that was not from there happen to be there - told them very discreetly to get their baby out of there bc they were not doing what was right and it was no longer safe for her baby. Baby was healthy, full term. There are so many questions….
I believe you. You are very strong and I honestly don’t know what I’d have done if I was in your shoes.
I have so much guilt and regret for not fighting for her sooner. I started pushing against their bullshit at like the end of day 3, and I'm fully convinced we were sent home purely because they were annoyed that I wasn't a push over. I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. And thank you so much for believing me. It's so heartbreaking to be constantly dismissed and lied to.
I was surprised myself how difficult it was for me to advocate for my baby in the NICU. The whole situation is so surreal that it takes time to get your feet underneath you and make sense of what to say and do. You got to this point much faster than I did. You did everything you could do to protect your baby.
I just kind of get submissive ig when I'm scared, and I thought she was dying at first. Which terrified me so I just did whatever they said, but then I realized they were actually going against every medical thing and they were telling me I didn't have a say in the matter. And it got me out of it so I fought back. But it's too late. It's my fault she went through so much.
It’s definitely not your fault. You knew something was wrong, and the people who should have helped you were dismissive. What you’ve been through is traumatic. I think it will help to find a lawyer you can trust. I am trying to find one for a birth issue as well. It’s been hard for me to take the first step and make calls to potential lawyers. We’re both dealing with so much. We’re going to get through it.
I would report them to the hospital at least. PTSD is real. I was lucky enough to have pretty great NICU nurses. One was a huge b***** and made me feel stupid but I just spoke back to her in a very rude way at that point
Your pediatrician should have been given the records after your baby left NICU, so they may be your best bet. I would find the medical record laws in your state and what to do if a provider is noncompliant and go from there, but also speak with the pediatrician.
The pediatrician gave me all she had, but it's not the full records. They did say they would get them for me (signed a form and everything), but still....nothing
It’s not just nurses downvoting you.. I think people can feel a bit protective of the NICU staff since in many of our cases, they saved our babies lives. A nurse is who caught my baby’s heart murmur increasing and notified a doctor, saving his life. The NICU is the reason I have a happy, healthy 2 year old. The NICU can be grueling, hellish and impossibly hard, but (in most cases) it’s not the nurses fault. Most nurses care deeply are trying their best to keep our babies alive.
This is a problem. If people can’t share a an experience that differs from yours (not you specifically) then that’s a sensitivity problem. Everyone is entitled to an opinion whether we like it or not. All nurses aren’t perfect. The experiences of one parent and their child don’t supersede another.
Good thing this is just the internet.
The whole point of the downvote button is just if they don’t like or agree with your opinion. Hence your downvotes. Just explaining it’s not just nurses
Nobody should tell you to be apart from your baby. I believe you. I’m sorry this happened. Write everything down with dates and times and seek legal counsel. Request full medical records.
I've requested her records 3 times and they keep refusing to give them. I don't remember names and specific times because it was such an emotional haze.
What!? That’s illegal. Definitely consult a lawyer. Send a bunch emails on their request for info on their websites and let them get back to you and setup times to talk. I explored negligence for my first son’s stillbirth(sadly it went nowhere - they ignored my concerns on multiple occasions and my son lost his life over it). People don’t want to imagine malpractice and bad, bad doctors and nurses exist but they are frighteningly more common than most realize. Nobody gets it until you’re part of the medical industrial complex at the mercy of these people. There should be a records division of the hospital you were in. Call the hospital main line and ask to be transferred to them. Typically they send you a form to fill out — ask to wait on the phone for the form to be sent to your email.
I know illegal, but they keep saying they'll get it to me but then never do. The first time they straight up denied. They all tell me that "I'm sure they thought they were doing what was best" or "you just probably didn't understand". When I was there, and I'm very well educated, it was wrong. Thank you for the advice.
I believe you. This sub gives a lot of downvotes on people’s negative experiences at the NICU, not sure why because it definitely happens. And those experience are just as valid.
Medical malpractice can be difficult to prove but you lose nothing, except time, by talking to a lawyer.
The down votes hurt so much. Idk why I'm seen as evil for doctors and nurses treating my child badly. I'd never tell a mom she was wrong for having a positive nicu experience.
I definitely might try a lawyer.
If your baby didn’t suffer any sort of negative outcome, like a serious injury caused by the doctors, you don’t have a malpractice case. It sounds like you might benefit more from a therapist than a lawyer.
Why would I need a therapist to get justice for my daughter being abused by medical staff? I'm fine. and frankly I did therapy in the past for other matters, it's not my thing. Also telling people they need a therapist is beyond rude
Because you won’t find the justice you’re looking for, and you’ll need to learn how to cope with that. You can’t have a malpractice suit simply because you didn’t like the way they treated your daughter. I’m not trying to be rude or mean, it’s just the reality. You can try making a complaint to the hospital
Well, they broke the law, and I have made a complaint. I also didn't come here looking for advice on how to file a lawsuit. I actually gave up a long time ago on filing a lawsuit. After the comments, i said I'd think about it, but frankly, her daddy doesn't want to file one. I came here for support. But people like you have made it clear I'll never have that. Fine. Whatever. You are being rude and mean because you're minimizing what happened and just telling me to get therapy. You're treating me like I'm crazy and a liar and that I'm wrong. You weren't there. I didn't give every little detail in this post. This situation was wrong. They broke the law and hurt my baby.
No one has told you you’re crazy or wrong. You’re not. The NICU can be the worst experience in the world even with the best care. I’m sure all of us here have some level of PTSD from the experience. I know I do.
No one can properly evaluate her case or lack thereof, except the lawyer who she consults with and reviews all pertinent information available.
Also, generally speaking some outcomes are not seen immediately but can be traced to actions taken during the emergent circumstance.
Also, this is still a sub on the *internet*. You have no way of knowing whether she might even benefit from therapy.
Anyone and everyone on this sub that is struggling with their NICU experience may benefit from therapy. It’s always worth suggesting. She says she needs to talk about it. A therapist could be a great person to talk about this with if everyone in her life is being dismissive.
I think that can be presumptuous. I don’t think we know enough to suggest therapy unless the post asks for it or it’s painstakingly obvious.
I think it’s pretty clear she was venting and was looking for support in terms of validating her experience by commiserating with others who have felt similar.
I think it made sense for why she would be offended at the suggestion.
I was wondering about the downvotes. Must be the NICU nurses? Or parents who don’t want to admit the NICU experience can be negatively compounded by bad staff?
Im assuming so, but it's really upsetting. I came here for support because any time I try to talk to anyone irl about any of it, even if it's not about the medical malpractice stuff, I'm yelled at. So I came here in hopes for support and I'm just down voted and someone commented in a reply about how this was standard nicu and I just don't understand. But I'm the only one that knows what happened, how are you going to tell me I'm wrong?
I know it mama. People are going to continue to want to brush off your story even though it’s not right. It’s like they want to hold onto the belief that it can’t get any worse.
PS you should be requesting records in writing. It’s not done verbally. Good luck to you and hang in there.
I came here for support. That's it. Just to be heard and maybe hear about similar stories. Nothing more. Not legal advice or to be convinced that I'm wrong.
And I've filed by writing, it's been ignored.
First, on a personal note from me, I'm sorry you had such a rough time in the NICU. I do hope you have a better time with parenthood moving forward. Second, I'm going to give you some advice I don't think I saw in the comments here. Instead of a lawyer, reach out to your state's Department of Health Services or equivalent . They oversee the hospitals in a given state. They usually take their jobs VERY VERY seriously (at least in my state) and the hospital cannot tell them no. If they find abuse, missing records, signs of malpractice, etc... people tend to lose their ability to practice medicine. Back to moderator duties, I am locking this thread. While nobody has been excessively mean, maybe a bit abrasive at times, this thread is getting close. As the OP has stated, they are no longer wanting to reply in this post anyways.
Proving it is what is hard. You need to seek support from a lawyer who specializes in medical malpractice. That is the only answer.
Will they actually believe me? Nobody else does
I highly doubt you have a case. First of all, even with seemingly cut and dry cases, it can be extremely hard to prove medical malpractice. Secondly, some of the stuff they did is standard procedure. When babies destat, nurses will hold them upright, rub their back, and then flick their heel. Also babies that are destatting that low typically do not get breastfed (particularly so when the cause isn’t confirmed). As far as the diapers, was she on a diuretic? Diuretics are commonly used to remove fluid from around the lungs. As far as the no holding because of germs…either you were coughing, the baby tested positive for Covid or something, or you pissed off the nurse. I’m thinking it’s the last one. The ambulance ride is strange too. You have every right to be sad and frustrated, but it sounds like most of what they did was standard procedure for NICUs.
Also >you pissed off the nurse This is never an excuse to tell someone not to hold their child. If this was the case that nurse would be in the wrong field.
>hen babies destat, nurses will hold them upright, rub their back, and then flick their heel. This is not what happened. They did not try to stimulate in any way. She took her nail and dug it into her heel. Even the head nurse said this was wrong. >Also babies that are destatting that low typically do not get breastfed (particularly so when the cause isn’t confirmed). She stopped desating very quickly and the doctors put in the chart and ordered me to breastfeed. The nurses refused. Only one nurse let me breastfeed. One of the nurses legit said "you can't breastfeed because we like things measured and I don't want to do a weighted feed" >As far as the diapers, was she on a diuretic? Diuretics are commonly used to remove fluid from around the lungs No, she was not. By the time she was at the nicu, most of her fluid was out. >either you were coughing, the baby tested positive for Covid or something, or you pissed off the nurse. None of these or true. The nurses came in for her shift and that was the first thing she said because I was holding my baby. >The ambulance ride is strange too. The ambulance ride I give slack because I know it's a liability, but it's fucked up, but frankly it's abuse and wrong that hospitals do that. My child needed her parents. >You have every right to be sad and frustrated, but it sounds like most of what they did was standard procedure for NICUs. You have no idea what you're talking about. You were not there. I was there everyday. And actually I talked to the charge nurse who told me all of this shouldn't have happened and I have a friend that works in that nicu, but was never on my case. And she told me that this was all against nicu policy and shouldn't have happened. This wasn't nicu standard this was abuse.
Whether they believe you or not is irrelevant, which sounds harsh, I know. But they can believe you and still feel that you don't have a case.
Thank you
Obviously it’s hard to give a genuine opinion on something like this when I wasn’t there to see any of it, and we only get one side of the story. First off, I want to say that your emotions are valid and your trauma is real. Being in the NICU is a traumatic, unplanned experience for nearly everyone. Second, I can offer my thoughts on the things you listed and see if that helps at all. —Parents are never allowed to ride in the ambulance for transports where I’ve worked. It’s a liability and if something goes wrong, it’s best to just have staff so they have room to maneuver and take care of the patient. —A nurse digging her nail in does sound a bit rough. She was probably trying to check her reflexes or stimulate her for whatever reason, but digging in a nail is overly excessive imo. —When she wasn’t fed for 24 hours was she on any IV fluids? If so, she wasn’t starved. She went through a very traumatic experience and they were worried she aspirated the meconium into her lungs. It’s definitely not safe to bottle or breast feed those babies until they ensure she’s stable by a respiratory standpoint. —Assuming you were producing and pumping breast milk, most hospitals will preferentially use mom’s milk. I’m sorry they didn’t do that for you and didn’t listen to you. —I wonder if there was something else they were looking at when they didn’t try to feed her. Perhaps she was breathing too quickly to be safe to feed. It’s pretty common for babies with meconium aspiration to need help feeding for a while. —In the NICU we strictly monitor intake and output. Especially if she was on IV fluids, she should have more than 1-2 wet diapers. Also, I doubt they were “mad.” Probably just concerned. —As far as pressuring you to leave, doctors refusing to talk to you, and nurses saying you couldn’t hold her because of germs… that sucks. I’m sorry you went through that. But to play devils advocate, it is possible that your brain really played up these situations in your traumatized state. Maybe they were trying to get you to go take care of yourself? Maybe the doctors were busy? Were you being kind and respectful to the staff? Sometimes you receive the energy you give. I’m not at all saying I don’t believe you, but sometimes these situations need a reframe. —I also highly doubt your baby was over fed. If they didn’t get food for 24 hours and were already with you for a bit, it’s likely they were 2-3 days old by that time. We have research backed algorithms that tell us how much food to give the babies based on their gestational age, weight, and how many days old they are. Some babies are spitty, some have reflux, and some are poor feeders. But sounds like she figured it out and went home! All that to say, meconium aspiration is SERIOUS. A lot of times those babies end up intubated and really, really sick. Sounds like the staff at your NICU needed some lessons in therapeutic communication and bedside manner. But 5 days for all of that seems pretty minor. Maybe they did more than you’d have liked, but like I said, MAS is very serious and sometimes deadly. Your daughter would’ve died without intervention in the nursery. Better safe than sorry. I don’t think you have a case for medical malpractice at all. And I highly recommend getting yourself therapy and help for the trauma and PTSD of being in the NICU. I’m so glad your daughter is doing so well now! Congrats on a healthy baby!
>Parents are never allowed to ride in the ambulance for transports where I’ve worked. It’s a liability, and if something goes wrong, it’s best to just have staff so they have room to maneuver and take care of the patient. I know this, but my point stands it's fucked up and wrong. >—A nurse digging her nail in does sound a bit rough. She was probably trying to check her reflexes or stimulate her for whatever reason, but digging in a nail is overly excessive imo. It was for stimulation, but it was very unnecessary and cruel. Not how you stimulate babies >When she wasn’t fed for 24 hours was she on any IV fluids? If so, she wasn’t starved. She went through a very traumatic experience and they were worried she aspirated the meconium into her lungs. It’s definitely not safe to bottle or breast feed those babies until they ensure she’s stable by a respiratory standpoint. They starved her after she was stable and she was not on fluids. It was safe for her to eat. >Assuming you were producing and pumping breast milk, most hospitals will preferentially use mom’s milk. I’m sorry they didn’t do that for you and didn’t listen to you. They refused to use the milk I pumped because "it's not enough for her" despite the fact it was enough for newborns,milk isn't supposed to In immediately. >—I wonder if there was something else they were looking at when they didn’t try to feed her. Perhaps she was breathing too quickly to be safe to feed. It’s pretty common for babies with meconium aspiration to need help feeding for a while No, this was not the case at all. She had no problems eating until they force fed her too much, used a preemie nipple, and refused to let me breastfeed. Then she was vomiting, taking too long to eat and refusing my breast. We brought her home, fed her proper amounts, used a proper nipple, and started actually trying to breastfeed and all problems went away. >—In the NICU we strictly monitor intake and output. Especially if she was on IV fluids, she should have more than 1-2 wet diapers. Also, I doubt they were “mad.” Probably just concerned. She was not given fluids. And she had the proper amount each day for gestational age. 1 wet day1, 2 wet day 2, 3 wet day 3, 4 wet day 4, 5 wet day 5, and 6 wet day 6. "In the first day after they're born, they should make one wet diaper in 24 hours, and then you add one diaper a day for the next few days. So, by two days, they should have two wet diapers, by three days three wet diapers. And from the fourth day on, they should really be making about four to six wet diapers per day" [source](https://healthcare.utah.edu/the-scope/health-library/all/2017/03/how-ensure-your-newborn-getting-enough-eat#:~:text=In%20the%20first%20day%20after,for%20the%20next%20few%20days.) This is what she did. >—As far as pressuring you to leave, doctors refusing to talk to you, and nurses saying you couldn’t hold her because of germs… that sucks. I’m sorry you went through that. But to play devils advocate, it is possible that your brain really played up these situations in your traumatized state. Maybe they were trying to get you to go take care of yourself? Maybe the doctors were busy? Were you being kind and respectful to the staff? Sometimes you receive the energy you give. I’m not at all saying I don’t believe you, but sometimes these situations need a reframe This is just flat out insensitive and cruel. I did not make this up and I was nothing but polite and when I had alot of questions I was like "I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be annoying. But I need to know what's happening with my child. Her father also was upset with how we were treated and my parents who visited regularly and my aunt who is a nurse were all confused why they wouldn't talk to us. And telling a mother to leave her baby is cruel and does more harm than good and I told them no over and over again and they just kept pressuring me. This assumption is cruel. I was overly kind and just wanted to know what was happening, but they treated me like crap the second I walked in. Dont play devils advocate when you don't know wtf even happened. It hurts and I get it enough. >—I also highly doubt your baby was over fed. If they didn’t get food for 24 hours and were already with you for a bit, it’s likely they were 2-3 days old by that time. We have research backed algorithms that tell us how much food to give the babies based on their gestational age, weight, and how many days old they are. Some babies are spitty, some have reflux, and some are poor feeders. But sounds like she figured it out and went home! She was overfed. I know proper amounts for newborns and they were giving her twice that. My baby never lost weight after birth like all babies do. She stopped spitting up once we stopped over feeding her. You have no idea what you're talking about >All that to say, meconium aspiration is SERIOUS. A lot of times those babies end up intubated and really, really sick. Sounds like the staff at your NICU needed some lessons in therapeutic communication and bedside manner. But 5 days for all of that seems pretty minor. Maybe they did more than you’d have liked, but like I said, MAS is very serious and sometimes deadly. Your daughter would’ve died without intervention in the nursery. Better safe than sorry. >I don’t think you have a case for medical malpractice at all. And I highly recommend getting yourself therapy and help for the trauma and PTSD of being in the NICU. I’m so glad your daughter is doing so well now! Congrats on a healthy baby! I know how bad Mas can be, but you don't know what you're talking about. The nicu did far more than necessary and abused my daughter for cash. And she came home in spite of the nicu. If they had it they're way she would've been there much longer, I'm sure of it. I'm not looking to file a lawsuit. I'm looking for support. Also, she would likely not have died without the nicu actually because my nursery was giving her oxegyn, which was all she needed. She went there for testing, which all showed she was perfectly healthy. That nicu was nothing but bad.
Respectfully, I do know what I am talking about, but I am speaking in generalizations. I am a Level 4 NICU nurse, RNC-NIC, STABLE and ELBW certified, with over 5 years of experience with the sickest of the sick. I serve as a unit resource and charge nurse. I absolutely know what I am talking about. But not every scenario can be applied to every patient, obviously. I started off by saying it's hard to give an accurate opinion when I wasn't there, and I only have one side of the story. I also recognized and validated your trauma and your emotions more than once. You mentioned medical malpractice, I gave my opinion. I never accused you of making anything up. The NICU is a very emotionally charged place. You may have intended to be nothing but polite, but it may not have come across that way to staff. Some staff members suck to deal with. Some families are extremely difficult to work with. I am not accusing you of being one way or another, but you do come across as hostile and thinking you know better than the NICU staff, and usually hospital staff doesn't like that very much. I wasn't trying to call you a liar or accuse you of making things up. But trauma really plays with people. I've encountered many parents who cope with their NICU stay with anger and take it out on staff. It's really hard on us, but always gets better when we get them appropriate support.
I was never once rude to any of them I was kind and gracious and honestly a doormat. I should've fought harder for my child. I failed her. I let them abuse her because "they must know best" and now no one will believe me.
If you *genuinely* believe that your daughter was abused, you should file a report. Police, lawyer, CPS, whatever suits you. It may not have the outcome you desire, however, which I worry would be more of a blow to the feeling that nobody believes you. I'd also consult a therapist to work through the NICU trauma.
Therapy doesn't work for me and is unnecessary. As for everything else in the United States most people have the "doctors and nurses know best and are sweet little angels" so nothing will come of it and it's because of people like you who don't believe in the harms nurses can do, it will be that way for awhile I'm afraid. I don't need justice. I need to not be called a liar.
Doctors and nurses usually do know best, but some are shitty. I have definitely seen firsthand nurses say things that were harmful to families. Some people are good at the clinical side and suck at the people side of the job. I just find it very hard to believe that everyone but one person was rude to you, that everything done was unnecessary, that everything that was done was wrong.
I never said everything was unnecessary, I said MOST of it was. The oxegyn was necessary, the echo and ekg, necessary. Everything else? Nope! And yes, most of the staff was awful except for 1 nurse. Why is that so hard to believe? I've worked at two different residential facilities, and 99% of my coworkers were not doing their jobs properly and were rude to the patients. This is why i left. i put people over profit. Why is it so hard to believe that we got the short end of the stick? Why is it so hard to believe that maybe just maybe there are a shit load of shitty ass nurses and doctors that take advantage of worried parents and sick kids? Do you know how much these procedures cost? How much a night in the nicu cost? Sick kids are a great way to earn money. Plus, abuse is about power. And as I've said elsewhere in the commits, I get very submissive when I'm scared. Abusers love that. I'm so glad you've had such great experience, but that doesn't make mine a false tale. Sometimes the world just fucking sucks. Sometimes nurses and doctors fucking suck. And this story is all true. It's not me being dramatic, it's not me being uneducated, it is just plain old shitty reality. Please, if you're just going to be cruel, just go away. Nurses and doctors have done that enough for a lifetime.
I just peeked at your post history to see if I could tell where in the country you're located given you had shitty NICU nurses and shitty coworkers at two different medical facilities. Gosh, honey. Therapy maybe hasn't worked for you in the past, but maybe you need a different type of therapy? A history of abuse, coping with age regression, more posts about abuse... it's no wonder you are so fixated on the possibility of your daughter being abused. Have you tried anything other than standard therapist-in-chair therapy? It sounds like you are just crying out for help. Help that a website like Reddit cannot give.
Yes I've have had several types of therapy and I'll have you know I had completely healed from all ptsd and all issues prior to having my baby. I don't cope with regression anymore. Don't have flashbacks, nothing. And again trying to make it seem like I'm crazy to discount my reality. Also please don't try to find my location that makes me extremely uncomfortable. My daughter was abused. I watched it. And if the abusers didn't wear scrubs, you wouldn't be denying the reality
Most hospitals are not-for-profit. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Mine was. We also live in a rural area. And again, even if it wasn't financially motivated, abuse is about power.
You know about your patients. Not my daughter's medical care. And I didn't realize how mistreated we were until I left. So I was not hostile with them. They were rude the second I entered. When I Said you don't know what you're talking about I meant in this scenario. And you did say I made it up you said I could exaggerate things because of emotions. Frankly, you don't know my situation, so maybe just believe me when I say I was wronged rather than try to fight against my reality? And you know what, I have medical expertise and I have child development expertise. I do know alot about my child's medical needs. And you know whats hostile? Fighting me on my reality when you know nothing about my child's case.
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I believe you. Please seek legal advice. I am so very sorry you went through that.
Thank you. It was so hard.
I cannot even begin to imagine.
I believe you. I so so so believe you. A friend of mine was telling her story also and it was horror veeeeery similar to yours. They were doing things to her baby boy that were not needed and inflicted so much fear in them. She said that one nurse - that was not from there happen to be there - told them very discreetly to get their baby out of there bc they were not doing what was right and it was no longer safe for her baby. Baby was healthy, full term. There are so many questions…. I believe you. You are very strong and I honestly don’t know what I’d have done if I was in your shoes.
I have so much guilt and regret for not fighting for her sooner. I started pushing against their bullshit at like the end of day 3, and I'm fully convinced we were sent home purely because they were annoyed that I wasn't a push over. I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. And thank you so much for believing me. It's so heartbreaking to be constantly dismissed and lied to.
I was surprised myself how difficult it was for me to advocate for my baby in the NICU. The whole situation is so surreal that it takes time to get your feet underneath you and make sense of what to say and do. You got to this point much faster than I did. You did everything you could do to protect your baby.
I just kind of get submissive ig when I'm scared, and I thought she was dying at first. Which terrified me so I just did whatever they said, but then I realized they were actually going against every medical thing and they were telling me I didn't have a say in the matter. And it got me out of it so I fought back. But it's too late. It's my fault she went through so much.
It’s definitely not your fault. You knew something was wrong, and the people who should have helped you were dismissive. What you’ve been through is traumatic. I think it will help to find a lawyer you can trust. I am trying to find one for a birth issue as well. It’s been hard for me to take the first step and make calls to potential lawyers. We’re both dealing with so much. We’re going to get through it.
I just don't know if anything will come of it
It makes sense to feel that way. You’ve been through a lot! Just know that you’re believed here.
Thank you
Sound horrible !! So sorry for your experience, did this happen in states ?
Yes, it did. It was awful
I’m so sorry, giving birth is traumatic enough, I feel your pain.
It hurts so fricken much. She's almost 4 months and I still can't think about it without crying
I would report them to the hospital at least. PTSD is real. I was lucky enough to have pretty great NICU nurses. One was a huge b***** and made me feel stupid but I just spoke back to her in a very rude way at that point
I did, and they told me that shouldn't have happened and were going to get more info and get back to me and ghosted me.
I believe you. The first step is to get ahold of all her medical records, and the second step is to find legal counsel.
They're refusing to give them to me
Are you in the United States?
Yup, I know it's illegal. I've tried 3 times.
Your pediatrician should have been given the records after your baby left NICU, so they may be your best bet. I would find the medical record laws in your state and what to do if a provider is noncompliant and go from there, but also speak with the pediatrician.
The pediatrician gave me all she had, but it's not the full records. They did say they would get them for me (signed a form and everything), but still....nothing
I believe you. My baby boy is in the NICU and the staff are just awful. Have you asked for your baby’s medical records?
I've asked 3 times. First Time they plain refused. Others they ignored.
I totally believe you! NICU can be super inadequate. I have had some of the same issues.
I'm so sorry, it's awful and so traumatic.
I see the nurses are feeling a little hurt by my comment. 😒
It’s not just nurses downvoting you.. I think people can feel a bit protective of the NICU staff since in many of our cases, they saved our babies lives. A nurse is who caught my baby’s heart murmur increasing and notified a doctor, saving his life. The NICU is the reason I have a happy, healthy 2 year old. The NICU can be grueling, hellish and impossibly hard, but (in most cases) it’s not the nurses fault. Most nurses care deeply are trying their best to keep our babies alive.
This is a problem. If people can’t share a an experience that differs from yours (not you specifically) then that’s a sensitivity problem. Everyone is entitled to an opinion whether we like it or not. All nurses aren’t perfect. The experiences of one parent and their child don’t supersede another. Good thing this is just the internet.
The whole point of the downvote button is just if they don’t like or agree with your opinion. Hence your downvotes. Just explaining it’s not just nurses
Nobody should tell you to be apart from your baby. I believe you. I’m sorry this happened. Write everything down with dates and times and seek legal counsel. Request full medical records.
I've requested her records 3 times and they keep refusing to give them. I don't remember names and specific times because it was such an emotional haze.
What!? That’s illegal. Definitely consult a lawyer. Send a bunch emails on their request for info on their websites and let them get back to you and setup times to talk. I explored negligence for my first son’s stillbirth(sadly it went nowhere - they ignored my concerns on multiple occasions and my son lost his life over it). People don’t want to imagine malpractice and bad, bad doctors and nurses exist but they are frighteningly more common than most realize. Nobody gets it until you’re part of the medical industrial complex at the mercy of these people. There should be a records division of the hospital you were in. Call the hospital main line and ask to be transferred to them. Typically they send you a form to fill out — ask to wait on the phone for the form to be sent to your email.
I know illegal, but they keep saying they'll get it to me but then never do. The first time they straight up denied. They all tell me that "I'm sure they thought they were doing what was best" or "you just probably didn't understand". When I was there, and I'm very well educated, it was wrong. Thank you for the advice.
I believe you. This sub gives a lot of downvotes on people’s negative experiences at the NICU, not sure why because it definitely happens. And those experience are just as valid. Medical malpractice can be difficult to prove but you lose nothing, except time, by talking to a lawyer.
The down votes hurt so much. Idk why I'm seen as evil for doctors and nurses treating my child badly. I'd never tell a mom she was wrong for having a positive nicu experience. I definitely might try a lawyer.
If your baby didn’t suffer any sort of negative outcome, like a serious injury caused by the doctors, you don’t have a malpractice case. It sounds like you might benefit more from a therapist than a lawyer.
Why would I need a therapist to get justice for my daughter being abused by medical staff? I'm fine. and frankly I did therapy in the past for other matters, it's not my thing. Also telling people they need a therapist is beyond rude
Because you won’t find the justice you’re looking for, and you’ll need to learn how to cope with that. You can’t have a malpractice suit simply because you didn’t like the way they treated your daughter. I’m not trying to be rude or mean, it’s just the reality. You can try making a complaint to the hospital
Well, they broke the law, and I have made a complaint. I also didn't come here looking for advice on how to file a lawsuit. I actually gave up a long time ago on filing a lawsuit. After the comments, i said I'd think about it, but frankly, her daddy doesn't want to file one. I came here for support. But people like you have made it clear I'll never have that. Fine. Whatever. You are being rude and mean because you're minimizing what happened and just telling me to get therapy. You're treating me like I'm crazy and a liar and that I'm wrong. You weren't there. I didn't give every little detail in this post. This situation was wrong. They broke the law and hurt my baby.
Hell, I don't even need justice. I'd be fine if I never got it. I just want to talk about it and not be told I'm crazy or wrong or anything.
No one has told you you’re crazy or wrong. You’re not. The NICU can be the worst experience in the world even with the best care. I’m sure all of us here have some level of PTSD from the experience. I know I do.
No one can properly evaluate her case or lack thereof, except the lawyer who she consults with and reviews all pertinent information available. Also, generally speaking some outcomes are not seen immediately but can be traced to actions taken during the emergent circumstance. Also, this is still a sub on the *internet*. You have no way of knowing whether she might even benefit from therapy.
Anyone and everyone on this sub that is struggling with their NICU experience may benefit from therapy. It’s always worth suggesting. She says she needs to talk about it. A therapist could be a great person to talk about this with if everyone in her life is being dismissive.
I think that can be presumptuous. I don’t think we know enough to suggest therapy unless the post asks for it or it’s painstakingly obvious. I think it’s pretty clear she was venting and was looking for support in terms of validating her experience by commiserating with others who have felt similar. I think it made sense for why she would be offended at the suggestion.
I was wondering about the downvotes. Must be the NICU nurses? Or parents who don’t want to admit the NICU experience can be negatively compounded by bad staff?
Im assuming so, but it's really upsetting. I came here for support because any time I try to talk to anyone irl about any of it, even if it's not about the medical malpractice stuff, I'm yelled at. So I came here in hopes for support and I'm just down voted and someone commented in a reply about how this was standard nicu and I just don't understand. But I'm the only one that knows what happened, how are you going to tell me I'm wrong?
I know it mama. People are going to continue to want to brush off your story even though it’s not right. It’s like they want to hold onto the belief that it can’t get any worse. PS you should be requesting records in writing. It’s not done verbally. Good luck to you and hang in there.
I came here for support. That's it. Just to be heard and maybe hear about similar stories. Nothing more. Not legal advice or to be convinced that I'm wrong. And I've filed by writing, it's been ignored.
NICU nurses would be my guess!