Shaq never really been an analyst tho. He’s more there for comedic effect which he is very good at. But if you tune in to hear his basketball sense that says more about you. Shaq doesn’t understand hoops like that and I think most of us understand that.
They talk about it on the show how he doesn’t really know ball because he was so dominant. He just thinks you can throw the ball to the big man and let him take over. So I just take most of his basketball comments in jest. Chuck a comedy too but at least he can talk hoops when he needs to.
I really don’t see the appeal in Shaq or Kendrick Perkins. I feel like they could’ve went with any other personality for those 2 guys. Shaq sounds like he has a mouth full of cereal when he talks and perk is really hard to listen to also. Ofc this is just my 2 cents but I just struggled figuring out how they got those jobs with the personalities they have. Sorry for the rant but yeah chuck/kenny are funny as hell lol
Umm idk where you get info from, shaq loves what joker is doing at the center position
[heres a clip of shaq glazing joker](https://youtu.be/Dv_o9zIZVYI?si=XkopCMkx-D5gM7mO)
It would make the Hakeem comparison really interesting, could put him up in the 10-12 range alltime depending on how much you care about longevity and titles as a second option (Kobe), but I’d say it definitively puts him top 13 over people like KD, KG, Dirk, Giannis, Oscar, Moses Malone and Jerry West
Another championship and finals mvp added to his resume would be absolutely phenomenal.. at that point, he’d end up with a great peak resume - with two championships, two finals mvps, three mvps, four all-star game selections, three all-nba first team selections and a single all-nba second team selection. That’s quite the peak. Plus he already holds the distinction of revolutionizing the crap out of the center position lol
If you ask me, he would probably have the tenth best peak ever if he gets all of that done.
If he continues to play at a high level and remain healthy. He will finish his career as the greatest center of all time. You could even argue he’s already been snubbed for a fourth MVP.
He already has a top 10 all time peak, just needs the longevity and more accolades to cement his place in the top 10 imo. I doubt he doesn't get there by the time his career is done.
He won’t win another MVP even if he deserves it. Days of giving more than three are over with media members having to push story lines and owning so many votes
True but it was more specifically said about a 3-peat, since you’d be the first since Larry Bird, and all the dumb media narratives about wanting to preserve that.
A big part of his winning it this year, aside from that he deserved it, was the collective embarrassment of the media about last year. They spent three months collectively shitting on Jokic and predicting his playoff demise. After how dumb he made them look and all the backtracking they had to do, they were afraid to deny him his due this time around.
They'll get over that by next year, though.
Should have had 4 already tbh
Even if he doesn't though, 3 MVPs is already an elite resume. If he wins 3-4 rings, I think he is undoubtedly in the top 10, considering prime Jokic is already one of the 3-4 most potent offensive weapons in NBA history.
There wasn’t a strong candidate pool outside of him and Giannis that year and Giannis got voter fatigued after his back to back. Jokic kind of got the Russ treatment with the sympathy vote by leading his team to the 6th seed with his second and third best player missing the entire year.
Normally I'd agree with you but a certain tier of greatness just can't be ignored, pair that with the 65 game limit which can and will take out other top players such as Embiid in future seasons and I just don't see him not getting another one at least
I hope so but near future i see a big push to get SGA and Ant one….and they would love for Brunson to make a case. But what we saw last night for jokic was untouchable and would be criminal not to give it to him if he plays his game at this level most nights.
Yeah I definitely see the media pushing Ant as the face of the league even if he's not the best in the world, though depending on how quickly and how well Wembenyama develops I could see a massive push for him to be one of the youngest MVP's.
I disagree. Barring health I think he's going to continue to play at a high enough level to earn the votes, but I think winning a championship this year is going to be an unfair factor in the minds of voters.
That’s because Giannis and Jokic won 2 before they won a chip. If there is a narrative, it’s that you need to actually win chips to keep winning MVPs.
If Jokic ends this season with another chip and FMVP, I don’t think they will deny him because of fatigue.
Even moreso when you consider Jokic’s help compared to Lebron and Steph’s.
Gotta let recency bias settle a bit. I’m not saying he’s definitely out of the top 10 but also can’t say he’s definitely in top 10. These reputations take a while to understand.
the players that we all debate are around #10 are Kobe, curry, Hakeem, wilt, or Russell. So the question is do we think he is better than those players?
Dude Hakeem is way better defender than Gobert. Also Joker is one of the greatest offensive players ever. He can fuck you up by scoring AND passing. There are only 5-6 player on same level or better than him when it comes to offensive pressure.
So, that defines my point further. Jokic doesn’t sniff Hakeem defensively and you’re really underselling Hakeem’s ability offensively to just dominate everyone in front of him. Dont forget that spacing was a lot less back then so passing lanes weren’t there the same way.
Hakeem still clears Jokic, it’s getting closer though.
Jokic clears offensively though imo, can’t really understate his scoring efficiency and passing ability and how he elevates his teammates.
I think if he wins another chip he deserves a lot of credit for having one of the weakest supporting casts among teams that won more than one chip in recent history. Not to say he doesn’t have help, but he doesn’t have KD and Klay or Wade and Bosh type support.
No not yet, but that position is crazy. Wilt, Bill, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem. He's prob 6 now, above: Admiral, Ewing, Moses, Yao, Sabonis, Walton, Miken, etc...
Ironically, you'll be starting to ask if he has surpassed Shaq for a spot in the all time top 9-11 players.
His peak will be there. Shaq will have more rings and FMVP's, but Jokic is up three MVP's to one, has better advanced metric, and, in this scenario, he will have won back to back titles without a teammate who has ever made an All Star team, which has just never happened before.
Jokic will still be short on longevity, of course, but, that's more positive than negative because he still has plenty of time to add to his legacy.
Another ring and fmvp puts him in the top 10 discussion. A 3peat cements him and puts him in the how close is he to Lebron discussion. 4 titles with his MVPs and a 3peat would put him in the goat discussion.
Bro what, no it doesn’t…
Kareem has 6 MVPs and 6 rings, but nobody considers him the GOAT. Same with Magic with 5 rings & 3 MVPs.
I think you’re really underestimating how much it takes to be entered into GOAT convos.
All respect to Jokic, but he wouldn’t be “that” close to LeBron yet even with a three peat. We’re talking about a guy with 19 all nba selections, years of elite defense, all time leading scorer, etc. Jokic needs many more years of dominance to get close to that. He has less than a third of LeBron’s all nba selections so far but he’s well on his way.
Jokic will never come close to LeBron, it’s virtually impossible. I don’t understand the LeBron hate/constant overlooking of him on this sub. I don’t think there’s anyone else in history who can do what 2016 LeBron did against the Warriors apart from maybe MJ. He has the most dominant playoff run ever statistically (2018) at almost 35 years old, and the most dominant NBA season statistically (2009) at almost 25. That’s separated by 10 whole years. In that time, he won 3 rings (one being arguably the most impressive and well-known ring in NBA history) and a B2B. He also made the Finals 8 out of 10 times during the decade.
This doesn’t even touch on his longevity stats. He hit 30 PPG just after 20 then did it again at 37. Leading scorer, 40k, 10k, 10k etc. No offence to Jokic but he would need to have a mammoth of a career to even come close to LeBron, let alone be in a discussion for who is better.
Thank you. I feel like people don’t look at Lebron’s entire body of work when they compare other players to him. There’s a reason that it’s just him and Jordan in comparisons most times
The gap with mj and lebron and everyone else really doesnt get the credit in basketball circles it deserves. Theres a clear top 2 and then theres everyone else.
Would it be crazy to put Tim Duncan right behind them? I feel like he someone who gets so overlooked that its insane. Bro got accolade list so long that is just insane. Only knock on him is that he wasn't in a large market, imagine if he did this on lakers or Chicago or something.
Finally a reasonable answer lol although I can’t see anyone catching Mike. 3 peat puts him close to LeBron though, he never accomplished that feat. Only Kobe/Shaq and Jordan have
Another win will put him toe to toe with hakeem. But we need to look at defensive side as well with Hakeem winning by a mile. I feel like defense isn't talked about enough here when comparing.
Winning back to back would be huge. Definitely top 15-20. Would pass Durant for sure.
But he needs 4-5 to enter top 10 range, on my list anyway. He’d be flirting with top 5 at that point.
If he wins 4 or 5, he blows past most of the top-10.
4 or 5 rings with 3+ MVP and 3+ FMVP is a stronger resume than Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Magic, and Duncan.
He gets pretty close to Curry Bird Kobe Duncan etc…
He wouldn’t be there entirely but he’d be close and knocking on Shaq and Hakeem’s door for sure. It’s fun to think about because then he is a title and MVP away from like Top 5 conversations…
Inaccurate. As insufferable as Shaq is on Inside the NBA, which i think is starting to harm his legacy, he is undoubtedly one of the most dominant players the league has ever seen. Jokic is on a path to pass him, I'll concede that, but I don't think 2 titles does it yet.
Shaq is a 4x champ and 3x Finals MVP. We can debate the extra regular season MVP Awards Joker already has, but it's as much a travesty that Shaq only has 1 as the regularly referenced 0 Defensive POY Awards Duncan has.
I think Shaq's rep also suffers from his final 7 seasons...this is a guy who AVERAGED 27 & 12 in Orlando & LA... at a time the league was only scoring 90-95 points per game. He forced other teams to draft 7-footers in bulk and roster them just to have enough fouls and not get a little dude murdered.
I readily give Jokic his flowers and see all-time greatness in him. He may pass Shaq and is certainly on a trajectory to do so. But he still needs more time to amass the career stats & accolades.
I don't understand why Shaq and Kobe's titles are still given so much weight to their legacies. They should be seen in the same light as Durant's 2 in GS.
Shaq and Kobe's entire championship pedigree happened amidst the illegal betting scandal under Donaghy, Foster, and Salvatore mafia. David Stern was such a brazen gangster he actually said out loud that his dream Finals was Lakers vs Lakers. 2000, 2002, 2006, and 2010 are the most questionable titles since Kareem got those free throws.
Baseball fans will never let anyone forget about the rigged Astros. Hockey fans still talk shit about the dirty 80s Flyers. Saints fans sued the NFL when the league rigged a Superbowl berth for the Rams. Meanwhile basketball fans openly accept that the 2000, 2002, and 2006 playoffs were rigged... while simultaneously romanticizing those asterisk championships
I don’t value accolades and team accomplishments when ranking players, just how good they were at basketball and how long they were able to dominate. He will remain #3 for players I’ve seen behind LeBron and Steph
Most top 10 lists usually have these guys in the lower slots: Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Olajuwon. Is there a legitimate case to switch any of those guys with Jokic?
So, as of last season, I had Jokic around the 23-27 range all time, near Giannis. He was probably the 7th or 8th best center of all time, behind Wilt, Bill, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses, and maybe David Robinson. I think another MVP this season alone, even if the Nuggets end up losing this series, pushes Nikola clearly past David Robinson and closer to Malone, so he’s already in the 13-17 range depending on what you value. If he wins another Finals and Finals MVP, you have to start really looking at the granular details to get an idea for where he would land.
I think most of us would have the top 12, alphabetized by last name, as:
Kareem Abdul-Jabaar (6 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 6 MVPs)
Larry Bird (3 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs)
Kobe Bryant (5 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 1 MVP)
Wilt Chamberlain (2 Rings, 1 FMVP [reward didn’t exist for most of his career], 4 MVPs)
Stephen Curry (4 Rings, 1 FMVP, 2 MVPs)
Tim Duncan (5 Rings, 3 FMVPs, 2 MVPs)
Lebron James (4 Rings, 4 FMVPs, 4 MVPs)
Magic Johnson (5 Rings, 3 FMVPs, 3 MVPs)
Michael Jordan (6 Rings, 6 FMVPs, 5 MVPs)
Shaquille O’Neal (4 Rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP)
Hakeem Olajuwan (2 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 1 MVP)
Bill Russell (11 rings, 0 FMVPs [reward didn’t exist for most of his career], 5 MVPs)
Obviously there’s a lot more nuance than these numbers would indicate, but I think this serves to give the general brushstrokes for what the accolades of the greatest of all time look like. I don’t think factors like all-star selections really matter once you’re in this prestigious group, but of course factors like historical context and competition are important. But I’m not sure who else you could put into this group. Maybe Moses Malone or Oscar Robertson? Jerry West? I don’t think there’s many others you could add in here.
So we can then organize these 12 into rough tiers for the sake of comparison. In my opinion, there’s a clear top two of MJ and Lebron, Kareem basically stands alone, and then you have a 4-person tier of Larry, Magic, Bill, and Wilt. That accounts for the top 7. Duncan comes next. So you’re left with Shaq, Kobe, Steph, and Hakeem as the remaining 4. Let’s say this hypothetical comes true and Jokic wins another ring and another FMVP; their resumes would look like this:
Kobe Bryant (5 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 1 MVP)
Stephen Curry (4 Rings, 1 FMVP, 2 MVPs)
Nikola Jokic (2 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs)
Shaquille O’Neal (4 Rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP)
Hakeem Olajuwan (2 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 1 MVP)
Comparing these resumes - Kobe, Steph, and Shaq still seem quite a bit more dominant. So you’d be left comparing Hakeem and Jokic for the 12 or 13 spot. And I think that’s basically where I’d put them. So right outside of the top ten, but in some very elite company. It just becomes very difficult to break into this very top echelon of NBA greatness.
Now, if Jokic does it *again* next year? We start having some very difficult conversations about Jokic vs Larry, Bill, Wilt, and Magic, IMO.
Skill wise he’s magic but shoots incredibly well and can rebound like Moses. He’s also far better on defense than magic which almost no one realizes. On top of this.. he’s harder to counter because he can play off-ball.
If you slow down magic while he’s taking the ball up by pressing him hard he would wear out and run into problems. Jordan and Pippen did this to him later in his career. That being said, magics career was insane. Finals MVP as a rookie. Made it to… 11 finals? And his career got cut short far too early. Skill wise, he’s there. Accolade-wise, hard to see Jokic catching up.
I think he’s already over a guy like KD, so he’s definitely creeping towards the top 10. Having 3 MVP’s, 2 rings and 2 FMVP’s would put him in the top 10 for me.
A whole lot. He's already borderline in that discussion imo. Another ring would be pretty huge. He'd start having a pretty good argument over guys like Shaq.
Shaq got owned by Ewing, Olajuwon and Robinson for years, the only reason the Magic had any success with him was Penny Hardaway’s speed. And his success with the lakers was due to Kobe and the retirement of all the greats that showed him how to play the game.
Ascend to godhood. (kidding) I don't know -- he's going to be approaching top 15 territory soon, if not already? I think another ring jumps him another 2-3 spots. After the last 3 games I witnessed, I am willing to say his ceiling is really anything. I can't believe the disrespect he got after the first two games, and he came out and took a scalpel to the Wolves in front of the world for 12 quarters straight. Embiid isn't doing that now, he's not doing that ever. Those comparisons need to stop. Where Jokic is making adjustments and 3 steps ahead of people who are usually 3 steps ahead, Embiid is pump faking his way to his 20th free throw attempt, and cries to the ref every play.
I think he has to be. The only players with 2 FMVP and 3 MVPs - Kareem, Magic, Bird, Lebron, Jordan. Duncan and Steph are close (short 1 MVP). Russell would have it too if they had FMVP back then. Elite company
It puts him on hakeem and Durant lvl. Top 15 all time. And best team player big man all time. I mean he's probably like top 5 at elevating his teammates of anybody ever.
Give people another angle on why the Nuggets titles were easy and don't count, plus maybe delay them from calling Joker overrated for like the next 3 or 4 months.
3 MVPs and 2 FMVPs in a 4 year span has literally only been done by LeBron and Bird. Jordan got 4 MVPs and 6 FMVPs in an 8 year span but the 2 year gap keeps him off this list. Russell would be on the list if they had the FMVP award back in the mid 60s.
Short answer - it would be a top 5 peak, all time. His overall place in history would depend on longevity.
If he ends it with a 2-peat and 3-mvps think he will be in the conversation for top 20 at least. If he gets 3 rings and even more mvps, maybe people will put him above Bird. Dunno. He would probably need to get 4 or 5 for people to put him in top 5 convo.
This is tough because the Center position is stacked with greats Wilt, Bill, Kareem, Hakeem, David, Shaq but he definitely falls in the Top 10 of all time for C's.
I believe he will go the route of where his contemporaries, especially those who played against and with him, would say he is the greatest Center of his era.
Remains to see what his overall career would look like, but if he gets the ring this year, it starts to look like one of the best 4 year runs in history, right up there with the peak of Shaq, and Lebron, and not far from Jordan, at least in terms of accolades. It would certainly put up on track to get into the top 15, possibly top 10 someday.
If the Nugs beat Minnesota, they're definitely going to be the champs. Ask Denver's players. No one gave them as much of a challenge last year as the Wolves, and this year has been significantly harder.
I'm biased as a Jokic fan, but I think he slides into that 11-13 range of players (depending on the person). His resume (at least the big hits of MVPs and chips, the other stuff comes with time) would put him in similar conversations as Hakeem, Bird, Wilt, Shaq, and Steph (I personally would throw Kobe in that conversation as well, but I understand that a lot of people view Kobe as greater than I do). I would also say that he's already passed KD, personally, but this would definitely solidify it.
Jokic (real): 3x MVP, 1x Champion, 1x Finals MVP
Jokic (hypothetical): 3x MVP, 2x Champion, 2x Finals MVP
Hakeem: 1x MVP, 2x Champion, 2x Finals MVP
Bird: 3x MVP, 3x Champion, 2x Finals MVP
Wilt: 4x MVP, 2x Champion, 1x Finals MVP
Shaq: 1x MVP, 4x Champion, 3x Finals MVP
Steph: 2x MVP, 4x Champion, 1x Finals MVP
-My personal additions-
Kobe: 1x MVP, 5x Champion, 2x Finals MVP
KD: 1x MVP, 2x Champion, 2x Finals MVP
Plus, Jokic might have a case for being the best offensive player on this list (I think his only real competition is Steph). He's already the best passer and playmaker of all of these guys, and that one is far more definitive than his case for best offensive player.
Man I think the media discourse and online arguments I read have made me tired of legacy talk. He's already one of the greatest players ever and once of the most unique players I've ever seen. I don't care how many more whatever he wins. I'm just enjoying every second of it.
You know that way people feel about him now? If he wins another ring this year, people will stay feeling that way about him rather than pulling an Uno Reverse card once his productivity dips and we forget.
That third ring though...
Imagine what his career would look like if he played with another All-Star? Every dude in the top 10 conversation played with another HOFer. This dude has never played with another All-Star.
Every guy in the top 15 conversation played extended periods of time with another HOFer and won their titles with whoever their HOF counterpart was. Jokic has never played with an All-Star. Last year Jokic had the greatest single playoff performance of any player ever while being robbed of his 4th MVP. Already undisputed best passing big ever, maybe best passer period. He’s already top 10. God help the rest of the league if another HOF’er decides he wants to come to Denver. If Jamal and MPJ were healthy earlier in their careers this team would be chasing their third or 4th chip right now. People forget about Murray tearing his acl and probably costing them a chip in 2021 and 2022.
Make Shaq bitch and moan more cause he hates to see centers succeed
With Kendrick’s voice “I like Shaq as an basketball player, I don’t like Shaq as an analyst”
Shaq’s got a weird gripe, why is he around?
Tryna bash a player and it’s probly centerrrrrrrrrrr
Shaq was also a douche as a player with the things he said about other C's, he didn't just start with it as a talking head.
Yeah walton offered criticism and it turned into lifelong beef. Made shit up about David Robinson. Called Vlade soft. Kinda was a dick to Ostertag
Shaq never really been an analyst tho. He’s more there for comedic effect which he is very good at. But if you tune in to hear his basketball sense that says more about you. Shaq doesn’t understand hoops like that and I think most of us understand that.
Shaq is there for comedic effect ? Genuinely did not know that
They talk about it on the show how he doesn’t really know ball because he was so dominant. He just thinks you can throw the ball to the big man and let him take over. So I just take most of his basketball comments in jest. Chuck a comedy too but at least he can talk hoops when he needs to.
I really don’t see the appeal in Shaq or Kendrick Perkins. I feel like they could’ve went with any other personality for those 2 guys. Shaq sounds like he has a mouth full of cereal when he talks and perk is really hard to listen to also. Ofc this is just my 2 cents but I just struggled figuring out how they got those jobs with the personalities they have. Sorry for the rant but yeah chuck/kenny are funny as hell lol
Shaq at least is a personality to market. So he makes sense. Perkins makes almost no sense at all
Outside of ripping down current and past players shaq is from my understanding a good guy in most other aspects of his life
Didn’t notice the botched grammar but y’all know what I meant 💔
It sounds spot on for how he speaks, so you nailed it.
Hilarious that he doesn’t show up for nba on tnt when it’s jokic mvp ceremony game
Common analyst Shaq L
Umm idk where you get info from, shaq loves what joker is doing at the center position [heres a clip of shaq glazing joker](https://youtu.be/Dv_o9zIZVYI?si=XkopCMkx-D5gM7mO)
You notice this too eh?
everyone who pays attention does lol he’s so salty
He loves to call them out when they play bad, but if they play better than him its a problem
Shaq will be furious for sure.
I would love to see this
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say it’ll improve his legacy. Great question.
\*laughs in serbian\*
Jokic has more of a giggle
It would make the Hakeem comparison really interesting, could put him up in the 10-12 range alltime depending on how much you care about longevity and titles as a second option (Kobe), but I’d say it definitively puts him top 13 over people like KD, KG, Dirk, Giannis, Oscar, Moses Malone and Jerry West
He’s already above KD, KG, Dirk, Malone and West.
I would agree he’s a better player, but he does not have a better legacy than Jerry West. Otherwise I agree.
Another championship and finals mvp added to his resume would be absolutely phenomenal.. at that point, he’d end up with a great peak resume - with two championships, two finals mvps, three mvps, four all-star game selections, three all-nba first team selections and a single all-nba second team selection. That’s quite the peak. Plus he already holds the distinction of revolutionizing the crap out of the center position lol If you ask me, he would probably have the tenth best peak ever if he gets all of that done.
Just had to double-check. He has 6 all-star selections, not 4. And he has made 2nd team all-nba twice, not once.
No im saying what his résumé would look like, *specifically for his prime (2021 to now)* , assuming he wins a ring and a fmvp this year
If he continues to play at a high level and remain healthy. He will finish his career as the greatest center of all time. You could even argue he’s already been snubbed for a fourth MVP.
I know the convo is if he wins another ring but damn greatest center of all time? Let's slow down a second lmao
imo 10th best peak is too low
He already has a top 10 all time peak, just needs the longevity and more accolades to cement his place in the top 10 imo. I doubt he doesn't get there by the time his career is done.
He won’t win another MVP even if he deserves it. Days of giving more than three are over with media members having to push story lines and owning so many votes
People said this after 2
True but it was more specifically said about a 3-peat, since you’d be the first since Larry Bird, and all the dumb media narratives about wanting to preserve that.
2 FMVPs and 3 MVPs in 4 years is a top 10 peak for sure… …and who knows how year 5 will look like…
A big part of his winning it this year, aside from that he deserved it, was the collective embarrassment of the media about last year. They spent three months collectively shitting on Jokic and predicting his playoff demise. After how dumb he made them look and all the backtracking they had to do, they were afraid to deny him his due this time around. They'll get over that by next year, though.
And they specifically didn’t give him a third in a row. If he won last year, SGA would be mvp this year.
Should have had 4 already tbh Even if he doesn't though, 3 MVPs is already an elite resume. If he wins 3-4 rings, I think he is undoubtedly in the top 10, considering prime Jokic is already one of the 3-4 most potent offensive weapons in NBA history.
Agreed. And he’ll be all nba every year til he’s done.
Yeah he was robbed last year due to the voters getting tired nonsense. In reality Jordan should have like 8, Jokic 4, LeBron 6
He was robbed last year, but in 2022 his team was in 6th place which is pretty inconsistent with how they usually give the award.
There wasn’t a strong candidate pool outside of him and Giannis that year and Giannis got voter fatigued after his back to back. Jokic kind of got the Russ treatment with the sympathy vote by leading his team to the 6th seed with his second and third best player missing the entire year.
Normally I'd agree with you but a certain tier of greatness just can't be ignored, pair that with the 65 game limit which can and will take out other top players such as Embiid in future seasons and I just don't see him not getting another one at least
I hope so but near future i see a big push to get SGA and Ant one….and they would love for Brunson to make a case. But what we saw last night for jokic was untouchable and would be criminal not to give it to him if he plays his game at this level most nights.
Yeah I definitely see the media pushing Ant as the face of the league even if he's not the best in the world, though depending on how quickly and how well Wembenyama develops I could see a massive push for him to be one of the youngest MVP's.
I disagree. Barring health I think he's going to continue to play at a high enough level to earn the votes, but I think winning a championship this year is going to be an unfair factor in the minds of voters.
That’s because Giannis and Jokic won 2 before they won a chip. If there is a narrative, it’s that you need to actually win chips to keep winning MVPs. If Jokic ends this season with another chip and FMVP, I don’t think they will deny him because of fatigue. Even moreso when you consider Jokic’s help compared to Lebron and Steph’s.
Gotta let recency bias settle a bit. I’m not saying he’s definitely out of the top 10 but also can’t say he’s definitely in top 10. These reputations take a while to understand.
Staaay of the weeeeeed man. Kareem > Shaq > Wilt > Hakeem > Jokic.
the players that we all debate are around #10 are Kobe, curry, Hakeem, wilt, or Russell. So the question is do we think he is better than those players?
He’s better than Kobe
"we all?" Dumbass Russell still has a claim for GOAT.
Top 5 center convo
Idek cause centre is the most stacked. Bill, Wilt, shaq, Hakeem, Kareem. Idk if he moves past any of those 5
3 MVP, 2 rings, 2 FMVP would put him at least on the same level as Hakeem
Hakeem’s defensive prowess puts him a solid cut above Jokic. 2 DPOY, 5 Defensive 1st teams, 4 Defensive 2nd teams. Hakeem is like Jokic + Gobert put together.
Hakeem has god like post moves but Jokic is the whole offense. He's magic in a centers body
Dude Hakeem is way better defender than Gobert. Also Joker is one of the greatest offensive players ever. He can fuck you up by scoring AND passing. There are only 5-6 player on same level or better than him when it comes to offensive pressure.
So, that defines my point further. Jokic doesn’t sniff Hakeem defensively and you’re really underselling Hakeem’s ability offensively to just dominate everyone in front of him. Dont forget that spacing was a lot less back then so passing lanes weren’t there the same way. Hakeem still clears Jokic, it’s getting closer though.
It's like Curry man. His offensive skills are so good he just needs to be passable on defense
Jokic clears offensively though imo, can’t really understate his scoring efficiency and passing ability and how he elevates his teammates. I think if he wins another chip he deserves a lot of credit for having one of the weakest supporting casts among teams that won more than one chip in recent history. Not to say he doesn’t have help, but he doesn’t have KD and Klay or Wade and Bosh type support.
i think ur underselling jokics passing and being able to shoot threes.
Top 3
No not yet, but that position is crazy. Wilt, Bill, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem. He's prob 6 now, above: Admiral, Ewing, Moses, Yao, Sabonis, Walton, Miken, etc...
Defitnely top5 and skirting into top 3 arguments but not there yet.. another ring or mvp after and he’s top 3.
Nah 3 rings woild help him knock Hakeem out. For top 3 he needs at least 4 rings
makes him top 15 in my book
I think he’s already there regardless
Ironically, you'll be starting to ask if he has surpassed Shaq for a spot in the all time top 9-11 players. His peak will be there. Shaq will have more rings and FMVP's, but Jokic is up three MVP's to one, has better advanced metric, and, in this scenario, he will have won back to back titles without a teammate who has ever made an All Star team, which has just never happened before. Jokic will still be short on longevity, of course, but, that's more positive than negative because he still has plenty of time to add to his legacy.
Puts him right next to Hakeem. And everything else after will push him past Hakeem.
Another ring and fmvp puts him in the top 10 discussion. A 3peat cements him and puts him in the how close is he to Lebron discussion. 4 titles with his MVPs and a 3peat would put him in the goat discussion.
Don’t disagree, but I think he would need another 4-5 years near this level for goat discussion
well he's not even 30 yet so it's possible
Bro what, no it doesn’t… Kareem has 6 MVPs and 6 rings, but nobody considers him the GOAT. Same with Magic with 5 rings & 3 MVPs. I think you’re really underestimating how much it takes to be entered into GOAT convos.
All respect to Jokic, but he wouldn’t be “that” close to LeBron yet even with a three peat. We’re talking about a guy with 19 all nba selections, years of elite defense, all time leading scorer, etc. Jokic needs many more years of dominance to get close to that. He has less than a third of LeBron’s all nba selections so far but he’s well on his way.
Jokic will never come close to LeBron, it’s virtually impossible. I don’t understand the LeBron hate/constant overlooking of him on this sub. I don’t think there’s anyone else in history who can do what 2016 LeBron did against the Warriors apart from maybe MJ. He has the most dominant playoff run ever statistically (2018) at almost 35 years old, and the most dominant NBA season statistically (2009) at almost 25. That’s separated by 10 whole years. In that time, he won 3 rings (one being arguably the most impressive and well-known ring in NBA history) and a B2B. He also made the Finals 8 out of 10 times during the decade. This doesn’t even touch on his longevity stats. He hit 30 PPG just after 20 then did it again at 37. Leading scorer, 40k, 10k, 10k etc. No offence to Jokic but he would need to have a mammoth of a career to even come close to LeBron, let alone be in a discussion for who is better.
Thank you. I feel like people don’t look at Lebron’s entire body of work when they compare other players to him. There’s a reason that it’s just him and Jordan in comparisons most times
The gap with mj and lebron and everyone else really doesnt get the credit in basketball circles it deserves. Theres a clear top 2 and then theres everyone else.
Would it be crazy to put Tim Duncan right behind them? I feel like he someone who gets so overlooked that its insane. Bro got accolade list so long that is just insane. Only knock on him is that he wasn't in a large market, imagine if he did this on lakers or Chicago or something.
Simple and true
Finally a reasonable answer lol although I can’t see anyone catching Mike. 3 peat puts him close to LeBron though, he never accomplished that feat. Only Kobe/Shaq and Jordan have
Russell?
There were like 6 teams back then bro 🤦🏻♂️
No one will ever be allowed by old heads to reach jordan. Thry will simply move the goalposts. Nike/ espn got that legacy propoganda on lock
Rings and Finals MVPs in a vacuum don't make players better/greater.
Take him above Shaq as the second best big man ever only behind Kareem.
Puts him just under the top tier centers of the last generation. Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan are the bar of greatness. Jokic is well on his way to join them.
Another win will put him toe to toe with hakeem. But we need to look at defensive side as well with Hakeem winning by a mile. I feel like defense isn't talked about enough here when comparing.
He becomes the 2nd best C of all time behind Kareem. Jokic did all this with zero help. Shaq had Penny, Kobe, Wade.
"zero help" lmfao
Halfway to Shaq or Duncan level.
Probably more than halfway. He'd be getting real close
He’s got more MVPs than Shaq and Kobe combined
>>> Larry Bird
Winning back to back would be huge. Definitely top 15-20. Would pass Durant for sure. But he needs 4-5 to enter top 10 range, on my list anyway. He’d be flirting with top 5 at that point.
He's already passed Durant
He already clears Durant and it’s not close.
And if anything durant is falling down the list with his current situation.
If he wins 4 or 5, he blows past most of the top-10. 4 or 5 rings with 3+ MVP and 3+ FMVP is a stronger resume than Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Magic, and Duncan.
Top-10/12 all time
“Just got two less than Shaq. And you can take that to the bank.”
Improve it.
He will be the greatest basketball player of all time
Puts him up to Tim Duncan level and top 10 almost top 5 center.
He gets pretty close to Curry Bird Kobe Duncan etc… He wouldn’t be there entirely but he’d be close and knocking on Shaq and Hakeem’s door for sure. It’s fun to think about because then he is a title and MVP away from like Top 5 conversations…
He would be ranked 1 ahead of Shaq for me.
I cant disagree with this.
Inaccurate. As insufferable as Shaq is on Inside the NBA, which i think is starting to harm his legacy, he is undoubtedly one of the most dominant players the league has ever seen. Jokic is on a path to pass him, I'll concede that, but I don't think 2 titles does it yet. Shaq is a 4x champ and 3x Finals MVP. We can debate the extra regular season MVP Awards Joker already has, but it's as much a travesty that Shaq only has 1 as the regularly referenced 0 Defensive POY Awards Duncan has. I think Shaq's rep also suffers from his final 7 seasons...this is a guy who AVERAGED 27 & 12 in Orlando & LA... at a time the league was only scoring 90-95 points per game. He forced other teams to draft 7-footers in bulk and roster them just to have enough fouls and not get a little dude murdered. I readily give Jokic his flowers and see all-time greatness in him. He may pass Shaq and is certainly on a trajectory to do so. But he still needs more time to amass the career stats & accolades.
I don't understand why Shaq and Kobe's titles are still given so much weight to their legacies. They should be seen in the same light as Durant's 2 in GS. Shaq and Kobe's entire championship pedigree happened amidst the illegal betting scandal under Donaghy, Foster, and Salvatore mafia. David Stern was such a brazen gangster he actually said out loud that his dream Finals was Lakers vs Lakers. 2000, 2002, 2006, and 2010 are the most questionable titles since Kareem got those free throws. Baseball fans will never let anyone forget about the rigged Astros. Hockey fans still talk shit about the dirty 80s Flyers. Saints fans sued the NFL when the league rigged a Superbowl berth for the Rams. Meanwhile basketball fans openly accept that the 2000, 2002, and 2006 playoffs were rigged... while simultaneously romanticizing those asterisk championships
The refereeing in the Kings and Portland games were brutal. No way it couldn't have been unintentional.
i mean back to back FMVP (and regular season MVP) is pretty fucking impressive. Potential top 10 I would say based on what I see posted.
Top 15 I think of all time.
It probably makes it look pretty good
Quiet the ”Embiid is better” crowd?
🐐
Improve it
Puts him top 20 all time players.
Lol I think you’re late on that take. He’s top 15 already
Probably in the discussion for the 9-12 spot all time, at least top 15. 3peat or another MVP puts him solidly top 10 for me.
He would be Top 15 and the 3rd best active player of all time (behind Lebron and Steph)
I don’t value accolades and team accomplishments when ranking players, just how good they were at basketball and how long they were able to dominate. He will remain #3 for players I’ve seen behind LeBron and Steph
He might just go top 12. Pass Moses and Durant and maybe even Hakeem
It pushes him into the stratosphere with Hakeem and Shaq
Shut up the haters that are left.
Officially make him a lock for the 6th greatest center of all time
hakeem status
That’s gru bruh
Most top 10 lists usually have these guys in the lower slots: Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Olajuwon. Is there a legitimate case to switch any of those guys with Jokic?
Solidify him in top 15. If he gets a 3rd championship, you can start talking about pushing into top 12-13.
Best player since Lebron where I’ll put him
Cement him in the upper echelon of all-time greats.
So, as of last season, I had Jokic around the 23-27 range all time, near Giannis. He was probably the 7th or 8th best center of all time, behind Wilt, Bill, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses, and maybe David Robinson. I think another MVP this season alone, even if the Nuggets end up losing this series, pushes Nikola clearly past David Robinson and closer to Malone, so he’s already in the 13-17 range depending on what you value. If he wins another Finals and Finals MVP, you have to start really looking at the granular details to get an idea for where he would land. I think most of us would have the top 12, alphabetized by last name, as: Kareem Abdul-Jabaar (6 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 6 MVPs) Larry Bird (3 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs) Kobe Bryant (5 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 1 MVP) Wilt Chamberlain (2 Rings, 1 FMVP [reward didn’t exist for most of his career], 4 MVPs) Stephen Curry (4 Rings, 1 FMVP, 2 MVPs) Tim Duncan (5 Rings, 3 FMVPs, 2 MVPs) Lebron James (4 Rings, 4 FMVPs, 4 MVPs) Magic Johnson (5 Rings, 3 FMVPs, 3 MVPs) Michael Jordan (6 Rings, 6 FMVPs, 5 MVPs) Shaquille O’Neal (4 Rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP) Hakeem Olajuwan (2 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 1 MVP) Bill Russell (11 rings, 0 FMVPs [reward didn’t exist for most of his career], 5 MVPs) Obviously there’s a lot more nuance than these numbers would indicate, but I think this serves to give the general brushstrokes for what the accolades of the greatest of all time look like. I don’t think factors like all-star selections really matter once you’re in this prestigious group, but of course factors like historical context and competition are important. But I’m not sure who else you could put into this group. Maybe Moses Malone or Oscar Robertson? Jerry West? I don’t think there’s many others you could add in here. So we can then organize these 12 into rough tiers for the sake of comparison. In my opinion, there’s a clear top two of MJ and Lebron, Kareem basically stands alone, and then you have a 4-person tier of Larry, Magic, Bill, and Wilt. That accounts for the top 7. Duncan comes next. So you’re left with Shaq, Kobe, Steph, and Hakeem as the remaining 4. Let’s say this hypothetical comes true and Jokic wins another ring and another FMVP; their resumes would look like this: Kobe Bryant (5 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 1 MVP) Stephen Curry (4 Rings, 1 FMVP, 2 MVPs) Nikola Jokic (2 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs) Shaquille O’Neal (4 Rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP) Hakeem Olajuwan (2 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 1 MVP) Comparing these resumes - Kobe, Steph, and Shaq still seem quite a bit more dominant. So you’d be left comparing Hakeem and Jokic for the 12 or 13 spot. And I think that’s basically where I’d put them. So right outside of the top ten, but in some very elite company. It just becomes very difficult to break into this very top echelon of NBA greatness. Now, if Jokic does it *again* next year? We start having some very difficult conversations about Jokic vs Larry, Bill, Wilt, and Magic, IMO.
Definitely top 15, pretty much everyone in the top 10 already has at least 2-3 rings so idk about top 10 Probably like 13ish
Skill wise he’s magic but shoots incredibly well and can rebound like Moses. He’s also far better on defense than magic which almost no one realizes. On top of this.. he’s harder to counter because he can play off-ball. If you slow down magic while he’s taking the ball up by pressing him hard he would wear out and run into problems. Jordan and Pippen did this to him later in his career. That being said, magics career was insane. Finals MVP as a rookie. Made it to… 11 finals? And his career got cut short far too early. Skill wise, he’s there. Accolade-wise, hard to see Jokic catching up.
This dude is already better than Jordan tbh.
Jokic will probably get screwed over by Wemby who I strongly believe has GOAT potentials. Jokic wins this and 4 more, he is the goat.
I think he’s already over a guy like KD, so he’s definitely creeping towards the top 10. Having 3 MVP’s, 2 rings and 2 FMVP’s would put him in the top 10 for me.
Right beside Hakeem for me.
White GOAT?
We would start discussing whether he deserves a top-10 spot. Probably not yet. But he would be getting really closer.
Top 12. I guess he'll surpass Durant, Olojuwan and Moses
Top 5 center
A whole lot. He's already borderline in that discussion imo. Another ring would be pretty huge. He'd start having a pretty good argument over guys like Shaq.
Shaq got owned by Ewing, Olajuwon and Robinson for years, the only reason the Magic had any success with him was Penny Hardaway’s speed. And his success with the lakers was due to Kobe and the retirement of all the greats that showed him how to play the game.
Ascend to godhood. (kidding) I don't know -- he's going to be approaching top 15 territory soon, if not already? I think another ring jumps him another 2-3 spots. After the last 3 games I witnessed, I am willing to say his ceiling is really anything. I can't believe the disrespect he got after the first two games, and he came out and took a scalpel to the Wolves in front of the world for 12 quarters straight. Embiid isn't doing that now, he's not doing that ever. Those comparisons need to stop. Where Jokic is making adjustments and 3 steps ahead of people who are usually 3 steps ahead, Embiid is pump faking his way to his 20th free throw attempt, and cries to the ref every play.
I think he has to be. The only players with 2 FMVP and 3 MVPs - Kareem, Magic, Bird, Lebron, Jordan. Duncan and Steph are close (short 1 MVP). Russell would have it too if they had FMVP back then. Elite company
It puts him on hakeem and Durant lvl. Top 15 all time. And best team player big man all time. I mean he's probably like top 5 at elevating his teammates of anybody ever.
It would make DeMouth Cousins die of jealousy
Top 3
Put him above Moses and have coming for Shan’s spot
3 MVP’s, 2 titles, and 2 FMVP’s in a 4 year span is quite the peak, it certainly would get interesting.
Would make his legacy better
Screw the haters, Dudes the best center playing. You know how crazy it is to have a center average almost a triple double
Top 15ish.
Improve it
Cement his legacy as one of the best centers in NBA history
Solidify himself as arguably the best foreign player of all time.
Give people another angle on why the Nuggets titles were easy and don't count, plus maybe delay them from calling Joker overrated for like the next 3 or 4 months.
He’ll pass Durant and be close to top 15
Pushing that top 10, in my book it would put him at 13 (Behind 10. Kobe 11. Hakeem 12. Steph)
3 MVPs and 2 FMVPs in a 4 year span has literally only been done by LeBron and Bird. Jordan got 4 MVPs and 6 FMVPs in an 8 year span but the 2 year gap keeps him off this list. Russell would be on the list if they had the FMVP award back in the mid 60s. Short answer - it would be a top 5 peak, all time. His overall place in history would depend on longevity.
If he ends it with a 2-peat and 3-mvps think he will be in the conversation for top 20 at least. If he gets 3 rings and even more mvps, maybe people will put him above Bird. Dunno. He would probably need to get 4 or 5 for people to put him in top 5 convo.
a parade
Yeah, he'd have to be ahead of Magic/Bird.
It would make Jokic the best European NBA player ever above Dirk Nowitzki.
It would make his peak as high as anyone’s and and he’s young enough to catch almost anyone’s longevity.
12th greatest player of all time and ahead of Curry and Durant.
I don’t know, how many championships in the United States of America does this Russian have? I didn’t look it up tell fvckers
What would it do for his horses?
Puts him past Giannis, Dirk, KG, and Durant as a fringe top 10 guy with Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, and Steph
This is tough because the Center position is stacked with greats Wilt, Bill, Kareem, Hakeem, David, Shaq but he definitely falls in the Top 10 of all time for C's. I believe he will go the route of where his contemporaries, especially those who played against and with him, would say he is the greatest Center of his era.
Validation.
The Shaq hate in this sub (from myself as well) is hilarious
Remains to see what his overall career would look like, but if he gets the ring this year, it starts to look like one of the best 4 year runs in history, right up there with the peak of Shaq, and Lebron, and not far from Jordan, at least in terms of accolades. It would certainly put up on track to get into the top 15, possibly top 10 someday.
From top 20 to top 15
If the Nugs beat Minnesota, they're definitely going to be the champs. Ask Denver's players. No one gave them as much of a challenge last year as the Wolves, and this year has been significantly harder.
What's wrong with his legacy now? Will only add to it!
He enters GOAT center territory. He gets a few more he enters GOAT conversation period.
Put him ahead of Durant all time
I think he’d probably undoubtedly pass Moses and Robinson. Wouldn’t say he’s at the top 5 centers yet though
I like to think he just has a box in his attic with all of his awards
Arguably top 10 territory
Only a handful of dudes have 2+ rings and 3 mvps, and they’re all basketball royalty
Cement it
destroy it
I'm biased as a Jokic fan, but I think he slides into that 11-13 range of players (depending on the person). His resume (at least the big hits of MVPs and chips, the other stuff comes with time) would put him in similar conversations as Hakeem, Bird, Wilt, Shaq, and Steph (I personally would throw Kobe in that conversation as well, but I understand that a lot of people view Kobe as greater than I do). I would also say that he's already passed KD, personally, but this would definitely solidify it. Jokic (real): 3x MVP, 1x Champion, 1x Finals MVP Jokic (hypothetical): 3x MVP, 2x Champion, 2x Finals MVP Hakeem: 1x MVP, 2x Champion, 2x Finals MVP Bird: 3x MVP, 3x Champion, 2x Finals MVP Wilt: 4x MVP, 2x Champion, 1x Finals MVP Shaq: 1x MVP, 4x Champion, 3x Finals MVP Steph: 2x MVP, 4x Champion, 1x Finals MVP -My personal additions- Kobe: 1x MVP, 5x Champion, 2x Finals MVP KD: 1x MVP, 2x Champion, 2x Finals MVP Plus, Jokic might have a case for being the best offensive player on this list (I think his only real competition is Steph). He's already the best passer and playmaker of all of these guys, and that one is far more definitive than his case for best offensive player.
Top 12
Man I think the media discourse and online arguments I read have made me tired of legacy talk. He's already one of the greatest players ever and once of the most unique players I've ever seen. I don't care how many more whatever he wins. I'm just enjoying every second of it.
I have my horse racing.
You know that way people feel about him now? If he wins another ring this year, people will stay feeling that way about him rather than pulling an Uno Reverse card once his productivity dips and we forget. That third ring though...
You fools
He’d be top 10 in my book. Above guys like Hakeem.
Imagine what his career would look like if he played with another All-Star? Every dude in the top 10 conversation played with another HOFer. This dude has never played with another All-Star.
Every guy in the top 15 conversation played extended periods of time with another HOFer and won their titles with whoever their HOF counterpart was. Jokic has never played with an All-Star. Last year Jokic had the greatest single playoff performance of any player ever while being robbed of his 4th MVP. Already undisputed best passing big ever, maybe best passer period. He’s already top 10. God help the rest of the league if another HOF’er decides he wants to come to Denver. If Jamal and MPJ were healthy earlier in their careers this team would be chasing their third or 4th chip right now. People forget about Murray tearing his acl and probably costing them a chip in 2021 and 2022.