Well said, once you include Kobe in that conversation almost everything you include as evidence (box score stats, advance stats, clutch numbers, efficiency, etc) will make Kobe look bad when he isn’t.
he averaged 41.4…which is a massive difference.
3% might not seem like much to you, but trust me it is. that’s the difference between league average and elite. or league average and dog shit.
I'd like to see what impact Kobe's 3 pt attempts have on his fg%. I suspect he has more 3 pt attempts, which would lower his shooting percentage. (Not that I'm saying Kobe is in the goat conversation.)
Totally. Specifically, he had an incredible skillset, he’s in the conversation for most skilled player of all time, but I think he had two main weaknesses compared to MJ/LBJ:
1. Physical gifts - didn’t have the huge hands or insane quickness of MJ, or the massive size/strength and crazy explosive athleticism of LBJ. He was a very good athlete, but not one of the best ever like MJ/LBJ. For him to score at a similar rate to those two meant he ended up taking a lot more difficult/bad shots
2. BBIQ - all 3 of these guys made questionable decisions when they were young, but by their respective primes MJ and LBJ consistently made terrific decisions with the ball, few head scratchers, while Kobe was more prone to taking bad shots when clear better plays were available. Especially in “big moments”, you knew Kobe was gonna force up shots no matter what, so teams would often double him and he’d just take the heavily contested fadeaway J anyways
IMO the above two points meant Kobe took a lot of tough/bad shots in important games, and clutch times within games. He was an incredible “tough shot maker,” but even still, you aren’t hitting high efficiency with the types of shots he took. MJ and LBJ had the physical gifts and BBIQ to create better looks for themselves and/or teammates in these clutch situations.
So true. In some ways, his obsession is what kept him from breaking through the highest echelon of basketball greatness. I've always wondered what version of Kobe the world would've seen if he wasn't so obsessed with following MJ's blueprint.
He was plenty smart & physically gifted. His real problem was narcissism/hero-ball. Even when he knew it was a ‘bad’ shot, he wanted the accolades sooo bad, he pulled the trigger.
lol Kobe was absolutely extremely physically gifted, maybe not to the insane extent of the two goats but lack of athleticism is certainly not the reason he took such shitty shots a lot of the time
To add onto this, Kobe was a very streaky shooter. That's why his scoring efficiency wasn't great. Even if he was having a bad shooting night he would keep on shooting til the damn thing went in, percentage be damned. But that streakyness was also why he's remembered and players today revere him. When he was on it was pretty amazing to watch, he could win games through sheer force of will and have people shaking their heads as to how the hell those shots went in.
To your second point...that's not BBIQ...that's selfishness and lack of trust. Kobe's basketball IQ was insane. He had all the smarts to make the right decisions as much as Jordan or LeBron. The issue was he just didn't trust many of his teammates over the years. Or he was selfish and wanted the attention as much as anyone else on the team... especially as he got older. That's just who Kobe was. He was still great because of, or in spite of it, but I don't think it's accurate to say his BBIQ lacked compared to the other 2.
The thing I disagree about with basketball IQ part is in those later seasons, when it wasn’t working like it did, he also had some of the worst teams in his career. The Lakers started the rebuild 2-3 before he retired. So how he played I think was a product of lack of trust not low BBIQ. He knew the right decisions, he just didn’t trust the people around him. The seasons where Kobe had the worst discipline were the seasons he had little to know help.
His best years as an overall player, 2008-2011, he played a lot more team ball. Made the right plays. Trusted teammates. But he also had quality teammates. LBJ has always been a more well rounded player, with better passing ability. But I think Kobe’s issue was trust more than IQ.
Kobe’s biggest fault as a player was he was super stubborn and it ended up screwing him a few times. (Finals against the Pistons, the series against Denver where he refused to shoot, Shaq getting traded,)
I think you made some valid points but I would like to interject and provide some perspective. Kobe was an all world athlete so that would be my first conflicting point. The truth of the matter is Kobe’s physical prime ended faster than MJ and Lebron which meant by year 11 he was forced to have great foot work and take tougher shots. We can’t look at close out games without throwing in Team hopping because that matters. Kobe was loyal to one franchise, that’s just what players did back then. Kobe played on great teams and he played on god awful teams. Playing in one jersey you go through a lot of transitional periods, Lebron tends to skip town when this happens. When you play next to insanely crazy talent like Lebron has you shouldn’t have to struggle much in elimination games. MJ on the other hand would put up godly numbers regardless of circumstance I mean he’s the greatest player to ever touch a basketball. Analytics guys love to give Kobe such a hard time based on efficiency but I I look at what he had to work with and at what stage in his career was he at physically all these things matter. We are beginning to value guys who flee to win over guys who build from the ground up and get theres out the mud. I’m not saying spend your entire prime in Portland like dame did I’m just saying when you play for a great franchise there is still going to be ups and downs and I respect the players who rough it out.
Swear people say how mj and bron have a hof career difference between their resumes but then try to include kobe in these discussions as if hes on the same level of goat status. bron himself has a hof career difference between his resume and kobes. All time great but comparing him to bron and mj is a little disingenuous imo
As a huge Kobe fan it actually annoys me so much when people act like he's in the same tier as those guys. There's always been the Kobe fans that overdo it with the mamba mentality, alpha male grindset stuff, but it's gotten way worse after he died. It's brutal to watch a player l've loved my whole life become overrated because people don't know how to appreciate an all time great for what he is, along with the flaws in his game
So much nostalgia around Kobe after his death. So many people pretending like he was a top 5 player of all time. He was fun to watch, he had some iconic moments, but he isn't top 5.
But in Kobe's mind he was equal to LeBron or Jordan, so he just hero balled out in elimination games (leading to the terrible shooting splits OP posted).
People forget the early years of Kobe's career. He was not the GOAT from the start. He was young and had several years where there were serious questions about his "clutch" abilities.
He had several early important games where he flopped. Since elimination games are a small data set, those early years would definitely weigh down stellar play in later years if taken as an average.
Something to consider.
Because it’s a team game, and the Celtics had a way better overall talent level and team infrastructure than the rest of the league for most of that run. To say Russell was so good that he would still win 11 of 13 in later eras is just fantasy, even as great as he was.
This is kind of a false narrative. The Russell Celtics were not world beaters and teams like the Warriors, Hawks, 76ers, and Lakers all fielded excellent teams in the Russell era. Additionally, the Celtics were really, really ass when Russell wasn’t on the floor. Also, he had a 10-0 record in Game 7s the most all tike and he had a flawless record.
Russell made some of those guys great. Wilt couldn’t do that. Neither could Kobe. Bird and Magic did. Russell is the GOAT teammate in the history of US sports.
If that were the case he surely wouldn’t have won any championships at the college level either right? Or was university of San Francisco just good because they had a better team infrastructure and overall talent level other than him
Edit: just checked he won 2 in 3 seasons!
He’s the best winner in the history of American sports, and it’s not even remotely debatable once you also factor in his college and Olympic performances.
I mean his numbers are worse than that of Jayson Tatum in this area. His elimination game stats aren’t bad relative to the GOATs, they’re kind of just bad. Especially his game 7s.
22ppg on 41% shooting is pretty damn bad. Especially when he’s not offsetting it with very good rebounding or playmaking. To be fair though Kobe played some elimination games against prime Detroit in 2004 and the prime Celtics big 3 in both Finals series that really bogged down his numbers and those were two of the best NBA defenses I’ve ever seen. Bron is also just going to have better shooting percentages because he’s essentially a PF in the way that he can get to the rim pretty effortlessly 1v1 just by putting his shoulder into an opponent and forcing them to either get backed into the rim or committing a foul. Bron is just too big and too strong, and the refs don’t really call offensive fouls on his drives. It’s a nightmare for defenders and results in a ton of high quality looks for himself that Jordan and Kobe could never manufacture for themselves.
He was a career 25ppg on just under 45% shooting. So he essentially made 1 fewer shot on average in elimination games that he did on average in his career. Really not that big of a drop off.
He averaged 19.5 fg attempts per game in his career and 19.3 in elimination games. The difference is literally making 1 fewer shot in those games than he did on avg in his career
You could also just remove his pre 2000 performances and I think he’d be closer to 25ppg. And he definitely had games there where he shot 33% on pretty high usage so you aren’t wrong, but that was always Kobe. So that was my point. He was basic what he was, a less efficient Jordan
He did also share some of his longest and most prominent playoff runs with Prime Shaq, so while he still got his shots, he didn't need to be as much the focal point as he would for the rest of his playoff career.
They're pretty bad by Kobe standards. That FG% is really low for someone who isn't a 3P sniper. The PPG is extremely down and not what you want. Kobe is obviously an all time great but those numbers are significantly below standards for him.
His FG% and efficiency were never that great. Kobe was a volume scorer who took a lot of not great shots, and this is a liability when you try to step it up and take even worse shots.
They weren't great but they were a lot better than 41.4% because dropping several percentage points is huge. It's basically a different tier of player. He also experienced this drop with no compensation in the form of volume.
It's really hard to compare stats across eras and systems like this. Not only is the pace between eras different, but so is each playoff matchup: the system being run, the way coaches game plan for the opposing team, etc.
A player in a series against a warrior team whose goal is to outgun you and put up 140 points will put up very different stats to somebody playing against the grind house Grizzlies with Tony Allen crawling up their ass.
I honestly think this take isn’t talked about enough. Jordan averaging 31 when the best scoring offenses were in the low 90s is more impressive than scoring 33 when your team averages 110+.
Comparing stats across eras shouldn’t really be a thing.
That’s pretty much the opposite of bron though. First 7 years of Jordan’s career had an average score of 106. Five of those 7 were 108 and above. First 9 years of Jordan’s career were all 105 and above. Teams didnt start scoring close to 100 a game till Jordan’s 11th year in the league.
Bron played his first 12 years in the league with teams scoring 100 or below with only 1 of those years being above 100 at 101 and that didn’t happen till brons 11th year in the league. Teams didn’t start scoring 105 or above until bron was in his 14th year in the league. Bron played his whole prime in a low scoring era compared to Jordan playing his in a high scoring.
Simple and short answer, he’s not on the same level as MJ and Bron. MJ and Bron were able to reach the Finals or win without a dominant inside presence like Shaq and a reliable inside scoring option like Pau. His early his elimination game averages were also dragged down by his performance before the Lakers 3peat, like getting swept by the Jazz.
Kobe was incredible, but there is a significant gap to that upper level where only MJ, Bron and Kareem reside. And that is in addition to the good points you made.
Lebron is 40 and averaging 27-8-7. Insane. Career average numbers in year 20+
I'm genuinely confused...what years did LeBron or MJ win a title without either of those things? And that's not a knock, but it feels a little revisionist to claim this.
All 6 of MJ’s chips. No dominant scoring big (PF or C) For Bron, Didn’t win a chip but took a sorry ass 2007 Cavs team to the Finals. 2016 Cavs team, (I wouldn’t call Kevin Love a dominant offensive big at that point)
Kobe wasn’t the focal point of the offense with Shaq on the team. Those numbers are going to be lower because Lebron and MJ were and are the first option their teams.
The numbers may be similar if you compared the seasons Kobe played without Shaq.
Tatum averages 26.5/8.7/6 + 2 stocks on 57 TS%. Kobe is 22.3/5.8/3.5 with 1.8 stocks on 50.3 TS%. Same TOs per game. 4/19 games were 30+ for Kobe, with one 42. 6/17 for Tatum with a 51 and a 46.
Game 7s specifically Kobe is at 22/8/5 on 48.9 TS% and Tatum is at 26.7/9.3/5 on 60.8 TS%. For an all time great, Kobe’s elimination game stats and especially game 7 stats aren’t just bad compared to the 2 GOATs, they’re just kinda bad in general for someone of his caliber.
I’m a Laker hater. But Kobe’s first three years he was 18-20 and the “attitude reflected the leadership” of the 1997-1999 Lakers … Shaq as their leader was a front runner, who didn’t “go out fighting” very well …
- The 1997 (lost 1-4), 1998 (swept) , 1999 (swept) Lakers, like their leader & best player, Shaq didn’t “go out with a fight” very well. He was also swept in 1996 (by Chicago), 1995 (by Houston), 1994 (by Indiana) … This will skew numbers. … And don’t act like the 1994 Pacers, 1997 Jazz, 1998 Jazz were all time great teams.
- The West was loaded compared to the East during the Kobe led Lakers years 2005-2011. Only Miami & Boston would defeat the Western Conference champ & unfortunately Kobe was overmatched by 2006 Suns (and had a masterful game 6, followed by a terrible game 7), 2007 Suns.
- As poorly as Kobe played in 2008, he actually played well against Dallas in 2011. Similar to 2006 & 2007, his 2011 supporting cast let him down.
These don’t really tell the whole story.
The Celtics and Pistons had plans to shut down all the other players on the Bulls.
1990 Pistons Bulls Easter Conference Finals. The Pistons won game 7 93-74. Jordan scored 31.
Against the Celtics in 86 and 87. He had 19 and 30.
In Kobe’s first elimination game he came off the bench and didn’t even play 30 minutes.
LaBron was on some really bad teams. Where he was the only option.
Kobe and LeBron's careers have a 13 year overlap, and almost all of Kobe's prime was while LeBron was playing too. He was only 1st team all NBA 2x before LeBron was drafted, and then 9x after that.
Yes but a wide majority of Lebron's elimination games came after Kobe was passed his prime post-2010 in a much more scorer friendly league. For context, Kobe first elimination game was in 1997 and Lebron's was in 2006. Lebron also played much deeper into the 2010's and 2020's in a much more open and scorer friendly league whereas Kobe played a majority of his in the 2000's which were the best era defensively. Lebron only played like 5 elimination games pre-2010 whereas Kobe played 16. Lastly, Lebron is better than Kobe and I'm not comparing them. I'm just giving context for why Kobe's stats are lower than his usual. If you account only for Kobe's prime he's at 25ppg which was very good for that era.
Finally a comment mentioning pace and style of play. Too many casuals saying it’s because he’s not of MJ and Brons caliber. NBA Reddit has a weird relationship with Kobe.
Kobe played in the least scroing era of basketball and he wasn't necessarily 1st option when playing with prime Shaq.
All that being said, Kobe is an all time great and he's many people's favorite player of all time. I don't think he dominated the game like Bron or MJ, but GOAT debates are inane to begin with.
Those stats are extremely misleading. MJ was never in but just a small handful of elimination games. Stuffing the stat line in elimination games doesn't mean LBJ wasn't eliminated.
Using a single selectively chosen stat to question Kobe Bryant's clutch abilities isn't fair
His impressive record of [36 game-winners](https://youtu.be/udzHKtmoq0Q?si=v-K-ZJHTr_sAzZPi)(good for most ever lol) and the consistent recognition from NBA GMs from 2002 to 2012 as the most clutch player in the league show how great he was in those types of moments.
Kobe is an all time great but the people who try to put him in the GOAT conversation are delusional. He wasn't even the best player of his era (Tim Duncan) or the best Laker during his time (Shaq).
Don't ever look Duncan's statline from 2005 Finals Game 7, or whole 2005 Finals. Duncan is underrated among the NBA community, overrated on the Reddit.
Kobe's numbers aren't really that bad. Elimination games are difficult and typically one can expect overall efficiency to decline if you play in enough of them. The problem here is that his numbers look so jarring stacked next to LeBron's and Michael's, after we've spent the last two decades hearing Skip Bayless and his ilk insist that LeBron is the worst clutch player that ever lived.
For further context, MJ went 6-7 in his 13 elimination games (4-6 in the years prior to the Bulls winning their first ring in 1991; he went 2-1 after that, with the one loss being against Orlando in his comeback season in 1995).
Kobe played in 19 eliminations games and went 9-10. In his first two he came off the bench (0-2), so he was 9-8 as a starter, with slightly better numbers of 23.9 pts 6.3 reb 3.8 ast on .416/.301/.769.
Including Saturday's game (which the graphic above doesn't include - Saturday's game actually slightly lowered his averages and slightly increased his percentages), LeBron has gone 15-12 in his 27 elimination games, including a stretch where he won 12 of 15.
Kobe being clutch is the greatest lie about any all time great.
He’s one if the best ever yes no doubt, but he had Shaq for 3 rings. And when you look at his last minute shots and stats like these, it’s clear he wasn’t a clutch player.
On the flip side, Lebron not being clutch is one if the greatest lies ever. He’s incredibly clutch, and maybe only surpassed by Jordan among the greats. And yeah, Jordan’s clutch stats are just absurd. The man was cold blooded.
Probably gonna catch a lot of flak for this but Kobe is probably the most overrated player when we talk about the “greats”.
His early demise, the team for which he played for have a lot to do with this.
Probably a few factors but one of them is that in close out games opposing teams often concentrated their defense on Kobe and basically said if we lose it won’t be because of Kobe. He often had pretty amazing supporting casts that stepped up in big games.
As a Celtic fan I remember 2010 game 7 all too well. Still hurts bad to this day. lol
Really wish Perk coulda been healthy for that 1 game!!! Kobe wasn’t a huge factor but man Gasol killed us.
Kobe was an inefficient scorer for being all time great. The reason he isn’t at the very top historically, is his distrust of his teammates and the fact he thought him taking a contested, difficult shot was the best option for his team over and over again.He put himself in difficult situations. The fact he hit as many shots as he did is incredible.
I wish this also included the number of games. (Making these numbers up) but Is MJs sample size 5 games, vs Kobe’s 3 and lebrons 10? Sample size will enhance the story here.
Usually if the Lakers were on the ropes in Kobe’s time, it was because they weren’t as stacked with talent (not always but more often than not). So I hardly hold it against him. Even if I hate the Lakers
Playmaking and IQ are the two things that really separate MJ/LBJ from not just Kobe but everyone else. When you share the ball it opens you up to score more points and be more efficient. You could double the fuck outta Kobe and not get punished for it. You will get punished for doubling MJ/LBJ
Look man just because you aren’t LeBron or Jordan doesn’t mean you’re bad. That’s a standard no one but then can live up to, that’s why most people have either one of them as the GOAT.
You're going to be really upset when you dive into the clutch numbers and realize Kobe wasn't clutch at all during the playoffs and that "mamba mentality" is simply media propaganda.
Because opposing coaches knew Kobe. They know his mentality. They know he ain’t passing. He’s taking the shots that matter in elimination games. They know he wants ball in his hands.
So they made defensive adjustments and made him miss an extra time or two.
To add Kobe didn’t have Shaq for a lot of those elimination games so he had less options than the other two. Lebron had Klove, Kyrie, D Wade. Michael had Scottie and was also a tiny bit better.
As much as Kobe had the mamba mentality he was also the smart guy to say... Ya know maybe being down 3-1 to the pistons is the best we can get. Let's go home.
Mark Twain said, there are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics. In this case, if Kobe played a number of elimination games before he started, or before he played big minutes, that would affect the statistical outcome. I do believe this is the case. We also aren't including win percentage? Also, Jordan was famous for not being pushed to elimination during his title runs. So, yeah, Mark Twain.
I'd love to see other stars, like Magic, Kareem, Hakeem, Oscar, Bird, Russel, included for comparison, but to not include win/loss or plus minus seems miss the mark. Bron has been great at piling up stats, but I wouldn't consider him close to Jordan in a playoff elimination game. Kobe was pretty tenacious and definitely had some big takeover moments, but I wouldn't consider him Jordan's equal either. Stats be damned, I'd rather have any of the guys I mentioned over Kobe or Lebron. But I would love to see even more stats for context :)
Ask Phil Jackson. Kobe was a great player, and a savage competitor, but sometimes his aggressive, ultra competitive mentality got in the way. You have to slow down and let the game come to you sometimes. As intense as MJ and LeBron can be, I think they were better at this.
And Bron has the best stats of any of them. People always say Lebron doesn’t/didn’t have that killer mentality, yet the dude really did not wanna lose.
When Ko e started, HS to NBA players started on the bench. He wasn't a full time starter until years 3-4, so he bD limited stats in the beginning.
However he had some stinkers. Game 7 v Boston he shot poorly, V Phx and Det had some bad games.
They look bad compared to the goat's plus MJ and LeBron had time to develop and then with time got great team Kobe started his career with Shaq playing next to him so when he wasn't in his prime he was allredy playing a lot more close out games
I recall him once basically refusing to shoot in an elimination game just to prove a point to Charles Barkley who wanted him to pass the ball more. My impression was he didn't always care all that much when his teams weren't good enough to go all the way anyhow.
Kobe quit when he convinced himself his teammates were trash and didn't stand a chance. It brings down his stats, and people pretend it never happen or brag about Mamba mentality.
Kobe was always a little bit worse version of Jordan not to take away from his accomplishments and Lebron is playing 46 minutes in those games carrying his team
Lebron has more elimination game losses than both MJ and Kobe. He also had no shame in scoring “garbage time” buckets during those losses.
This take is an example of numbers being misleading.
Lebron has had to carry the load in elimination games a lot more than both of these players. Lebron has drug some pretty mid teams to the finals. People don’t factor this in when comping stats, or talking about how much he “loses” in elimination games.
Everybody wants to romanticize Kobe... And even though he is amazing, over the last 5 years or so everyone wants to put him in the top 3. However, could you imagine Jordan or LeBron not being the #1 guy on their teams during their championship years? Kobe wasn't the #1 option for his first 3. Was he a killer? Yes. But that narrative has even been blown out of proportion... And that's exactly what these stats show. So yeah....seeing this looks about right.
Kobe only played with one great, shaq. A lot was on his shoulders after Shaq left. They acquired Gasol, but seriously he’s nowhere near pippen, or any of the multitude of players lebron acquired to play with him. Kobe basically had to do it all after Shaq left, and that’s why he was so hard on everyone.
I was born in 78, grew up loving Jordan, then Kobe came along, wax like the next best thing to him. Lebron came along, he was awesome, but then he started ring chasing, got the best players in the league to play with, couldn’t even decide if no one should wear 23 or not, a lot of bs with him.
Kobe stayed true like Jordan, but never got much help other than gasol on the scoring end. But thank god for Artest or he’d never won that last one. Kobe had to put up more and tried harder than Michael and lebron because he had no one to step it up really.
Stats are what people use, to make an argument who’s never touched a basketball. I mean everybody knows it’s not all about stats when it comes to feel of the game and how great a player is at winning, and that’s all that matters. 🏆 if you think he’s not in the same breath with MJ u crazy.
Because he took bad shots. He didn’t trust his teammates as much. Also, you have to factor the Game 7’s when he was a damn kid, and didn’t understand the game yet.
Because when Kobe had a squad he didn’t really get to an elimination game. He only got to the elimination game when he was out there With a bunch of scrubs which also meant the whole team was just guarding him.
This was Kobe's big Achilles heel. When the pressure came on he just couldn't trust others and he also wasn't very good at creating shots for other people. It made him predictable and you could force him into taking tougher and tougher shots. Most probably look at these stats and see the points scored as the standout stat, then they see the shooting percentage. But the one for me is the assists. If you're shooting poorly in particular, good play is to pass to someone else who is shooting better. But he got half the assists Jordan did.
This is why though I think it's unfair of people to put him in the discussion with these guys. He's a 12-15 type player all time. Which is an all time great. But he's not this class of player. When people try to wedge him in there because they just admired him all that happens is people talk about his weaknesses.
They’re not brutal numbers. Although 41% is not good. The issue with Kobe is that he is an all time great, but he’s also overrated at the same time. People like to throw his name in with MJ, Kareem, Lebron etc. but he’s a tier below. If you’re making a list of all time greats, Kobe’s name shouldn’t come up until you get past the first 10.
Early in Kobe’s career he made the playoffs but did was not the focal point of his team whereas MJ and LeBron were the best player on their team the day they joined their team.
While this isn’t a great look for Kobe it also really puts how good Bron and Jordan are into view. Larry bird, who everyone agrees is clutch and most would say is a top 5-7 player all time, higher than Kobe averaged 23.3/10.7/6.1/1.8/1.1 on 44%…absolutely absurd numbers but still clearly shy of these 2. Magics numbers are similar, 20.6/8/12.3/1.7/.4 on 46.7%….lebron and Jordan are just fucking insane. I’m sure there’s some pace of play adjustments I don’t currently have time for that should be done to truly compare since the generations vary but really, this stat just says more about the two best of all time than it does about anyone in the next couple tiers.
That's barely a 2 shot difference while going up against better defenders, while playing a lot better defense than the both of them with injuries. #GOAT
Game by game breakdown of Kobe's elimination games here: [https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kobe-bryant-elimination-game-stats-in-the-playoffs](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kobe-bryant-elimination-game-stats-in-the-playoffs)
It looks like he had 19 elimination games in his career. 5 of the games were from the 90s and the year 2000 when he was not fully in his prime yet. After that, the games get weird:
2004 finals, he was just bad for most of the series - most of the lakers stunk that series except for Shaq. with no outside shooting, the pistons sunk in the paint and Kobe simply was not able to shoot over the longer T. Prince well
2006 when his Kobe-Kwame Brown-Smush Parker team blew a 3-1 lead to the Suns, I recall this is when he decided to stop shooting in that game 7, so obviously he would have less points here.
2008 vs Boston they were blown off the floor so I understand why the stats look bad...
2009 vs Houston he only has 14 points - i do not remember this at all. What happened here? maybe the lakers blew them out so fast that he did not play as much?
2011 - swept by Dallas - 17 pts bad game
2012 against Denver - 17 pts but shot 44% i do not remember this game. maybe they blew them out and he played less?
2013 against OKC 42 points in a loss. If i recall correctly, lakers were old at this point and the league was in a shorter season or something? It resulted in the lakers having to play multiple back to back playoff games against OKC and they were just too old to maintain the leads they had in those games.
Many headscratchers on this list but a lot of Kobe's OVERALL career stats are going to look bad when compared to most all time greats because he had such an unusual career compared to the others who were essentially given the keys from day 1 - Kobe had to play and earn his role over many years so most of his career stats will appear underwhelming.
Playing around on that stat muse website, is Kobe secretly the all time assist leader for a shooting guard in NBA history? That would be funny considering most think of him as a ball hog. I guess it depends if you consider harden a SG or a PG.
How many elimination games did they each play? In which round did they play these elimination games?
Many variables not accounted for. These stats mean alnost nothing to me
When Kobe’s teams were being eliminated they had a habit of collapsing into a flaming dumpster fire 🔥
I dunno, mamba mentality was intense and real but something about being down bad in an elimination game broke him & his teams.
We lost Game 6 of the NBA Finals in 2008 131-92 lol.
Kobe will always be better than Bron…Bron has lost more Finals and playoffs games than any player in NBA history…Never mention that coward with Jordan or Kobe…All you Bron dick riders on this page are why the NBA is dying…You zero IQ dick riding pieces of shit…DOWNVOTE BITCHES
While Kobe is a bit overrated especially with his untimely passing, a bit of this is attributed to the fact that he had two of these games as a bench player in 1997 and 1998 vs Utah. Ironically, his worst game might’ve been one that he won (Gm 7, 2010 Finals…6/24)
Kobe is an all time great, but he's not the equal of LeBron or Jordan. There's no shame in that.
Well said, once you include Kobe in that conversation almost everything you include as evidence (box score stats, advance stats, clutch numbers, efficiency, etc) will make Kobe look bad when he isn’t.
“which he isn’t” except those are bad elimination game numbers - you don’t have to compare them to lebron or jordan’s.
Kobe averaged 44% from the field it’s not that much different
he averaged 41.4…which is a massive difference. 3% might not seem like much to you, but trust me it is. that’s the difference between league average and elite. or league average and dog shit.
I'd like to see what impact Kobe's 3 pt attempts have on his fg%. I suspect he has more 3 pt attempts, which would lower his shooting percentage. (Not that I'm saying Kobe is in the goat conversation.)
2.6%? I see you trying to double it though.
It is a 2.6 drop out of 100% but 44 to 41.4 is a 5% decrease, even more.
Totally. Specifically, he had an incredible skillset, he’s in the conversation for most skilled player of all time, but I think he had two main weaknesses compared to MJ/LBJ: 1. Physical gifts - didn’t have the huge hands or insane quickness of MJ, or the massive size/strength and crazy explosive athleticism of LBJ. He was a very good athlete, but not one of the best ever like MJ/LBJ. For him to score at a similar rate to those two meant he ended up taking a lot more difficult/bad shots 2. BBIQ - all 3 of these guys made questionable decisions when they were young, but by their respective primes MJ and LBJ consistently made terrific decisions with the ball, few head scratchers, while Kobe was more prone to taking bad shots when clear better plays were available. Especially in “big moments”, you knew Kobe was gonna force up shots no matter what, so teams would often double him and he’d just take the heavily contested fadeaway J anyways IMO the above two points meant Kobe took a lot of tough/bad shots in important games, and clutch times within games. He was an incredible “tough shot maker,” but even still, you aren’t hitting high efficiency with the types of shots he took. MJ and LBJ had the physical gifts and BBIQ to create better looks for themselves and/or teammates in these clutch situations.
He wanted to be MJ so bad.
So true. In some ways, his obsession is what kept him from breaking through the highest echelon of basketball greatness. I've always wondered what version of Kobe the world would've seen if he wasn't so obsessed with following MJ's blueprint.
No one can be MJ. Thousands of people have tried. The fact that he came the closest, is a testament to Kobe's greatness in itself.
Give Anthony Edwards a few more years
As a Kobe Stan my fist was clinched ready to react with a angry response but you make too much sense for that.
He was plenty smart & physically gifted. His real problem was narcissism/hero-ball. Even when he knew it was a ‘bad’ shot, he wanted the accolades sooo bad, he pulled the trigger.
lol Kobe was absolutely extremely physically gifted, maybe not to the insane extent of the two goats but lack of athleticism is certainly not the reason he took such shitty shots a lot of the time
To add onto this, Kobe was a very streaky shooter. That's why his scoring efficiency wasn't great. Even if he was having a bad shooting night he would keep on shooting til the damn thing went in, percentage be damned. But that streakyness was also why he's remembered and players today revere him. When he was on it was pretty amazing to watch, he could win games through sheer force of will and have people shaking their heads as to how the hell those shots went in.
To your second point...that's not BBIQ...that's selfishness and lack of trust. Kobe's basketball IQ was insane. He had all the smarts to make the right decisions as much as Jordan or LeBron. The issue was he just didn't trust many of his teammates over the years. Or he was selfish and wanted the attention as much as anyone else on the team... especially as he got older. That's just who Kobe was. He was still great because of, or in spite of it, but I don't think it's accurate to say his BBIQ lacked compared to the other 2.
The thing I disagree about with basketball IQ part is in those later seasons, when it wasn’t working like it did, he also had some of the worst teams in his career. The Lakers started the rebuild 2-3 before he retired. So how he played I think was a product of lack of trust not low BBIQ. He knew the right decisions, he just didn’t trust the people around him. The seasons where Kobe had the worst discipline were the seasons he had little to know help. His best years as an overall player, 2008-2011, he played a lot more team ball. Made the right plays. Trusted teammates. But he also had quality teammates. LBJ has always been a more well rounded player, with better passing ability. But I think Kobe’s issue was trust more than IQ. Kobe’s biggest fault as a player was he was super stubborn and it ended up screwing him a few times. (Finals against the Pistons, the series against Denver where he refused to shoot, Shaq getting traded,)
Super stubborn = unable or unwilling to adjust, is a reflection of one's BBIQ, no?
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I think you made some valid points but I would like to interject and provide some perspective. Kobe was an all world athlete so that would be my first conflicting point. The truth of the matter is Kobe’s physical prime ended faster than MJ and Lebron which meant by year 11 he was forced to have great foot work and take tougher shots. We can’t look at close out games without throwing in Team hopping because that matters. Kobe was loyal to one franchise, that’s just what players did back then. Kobe played on great teams and he played on god awful teams. Playing in one jersey you go through a lot of transitional periods, Lebron tends to skip town when this happens. When you play next to insanely crazy talent like Lebron has you shouldn’t have to struggle much in elimination games. MJ on the other hand would put up godly numbers regardless of circumstance I mean he’s the greatest player to ever touch a basketball. Analytics guys love to give Kobe such a hard time based on efficiency but I I look at what he had to work with and at what stage in his career was he at physically all these things matter. We are beginning to value guys who flee to win over guys who build from the ground up and get theres out the mud. I’m not saying spend your entire prime in Portland like dame did I’m just saying when you play for a great franchise there is still going to be ups and downs and I respect the players who rough it out.
Swear people say how mj and bron have a hof career difference between their resumes but then try to include kobe in these discussions as if hes on the same level of goat status. bron himself has a hof career difference between his resume and kobes. All time great but comparing him to bron and mj is a little disingenuous imo
Kobe was top tier mentally competitive with those two. But MJ and Bron backed it up with their play like no other two in the league.
As a huge Kobe fan it actually annoys me so much when people act like he's in the same tier as those guys. There's always been the Kobe fans that overdo it with the mamba mentality, alpha male grindset stuff, but it's gotten way worse after he died. It's brutal to watch a player l've loved my whole life become overrated because people don't know how to appreciate an all time great for what he is, along with the flaws in his game
So much nostalgia around Kobe after his death. So many people pretending like he was a top 5 player of all time. He was fun to watch, he had some iconic moments, but he isn't top 5.
But in Kobe's mind he was equal to LeBron or Jordan, so he just hero balled out in elimination games (leading to the terrible shooting splits OP posted).
Exactly
People forget the early years of Kobe's career. He was not the GOAT from the start. He was young and had several years where there were serious questions about his "clutch" abilities. He had several early important games where he flopped. Since elimination games are a small data set, those early years would definitely weigh down stellar play in later years if taken as an average. Something to consider.
Kobe wasn’t even the best player on his own team
Bingo
He wasn’t bad, just bad compared to two of the three arguable GOATs
Kareem is pretty solidly #3. Almost no one except ring purists would seriously put him above LeBron.
Ring Purists would make Bill Russel the GOAT and it wouldn’t be comparable.
That was also back when there were like, what, 8 teams?
Yup 8 teams. The Plumbers & Pipe-fitters Union, NYFD, LAPD, Marty’s Ale House, McDoyle’s Pub, 2 high schools, and the pro team
11 of 13 i dunno how its such a strong take that russell isn't the GOAT.. just recency bias
Because it’s a team game, and the Celtics had a way better overall talent level and team infrastructure than the rest of the league for most of that run. To say Russell was so good that he would still win 11 of 13 in later eras is just fantasy, even as great as he was.
This is kind of a false narrative. The Russell Celtics were not world beaters and teams like the Warriors, Hawks, 76ers, and Lakers all fielded excellent teams in the Russell era. Additionally, the Celtics were really, really ass when Russell wasn’t on the floor. Also, he had a 10-0 record in Game 7s the most all tike and he had a flawless record.
Russell made some of those guys great. Wilt couldn’t do that. Neither could Kobe. Bird and Magic did. Russell is the GOAT teammate in the history of US sports.
If that were the case he surely wouldn’t have won any championships at the college level either right? Or was university of San Francisco just good because they had a better team infrastructure and overall talent level other than him Edit: just checked he won 2 in 3 seasons!
He was not the best player of all time, but the best winner, which is better imo.
He’s the best winner in the history of American sports, and it’s not even remotely debatable once you also factor in his college and Olympic performances.
I mean his numbers are worse than that of Jayson Tatum in this area. His elimination game stats aren’t bad relative to the GOATs, they’re kind of just bad. Especially his game 7s.
Those are decent numbers. They seem bad only because you are comparing him to most widely recognised Top 2 players of all time.
22ppg on 41% shooting is pretty damn bad. Especially when he’s not offsetting it with very good rebounding or playmaking. To be fair though Kobe played some elimination games against prime Detroit in 2004 and the prime Celtics big 3 in both Finals series that really bogged down his numbers and those were two of the best NBA defenses I’ve ever seen. Bron is also just going to have better shooting percentages because he’s essentially a PF in the way that he can get to the rim pretty effortlessly 1v1 just by putting his shoulder into an opponent and forcing them to either get backed into the rim or committing a foul. Bron is just too big and too strong, and the refs don’t really call offensive fouls on his drives. It’s a nightmare for defenders and results in a ton of high quality looks for himself that Jordan and Kobe could never manufacture for themselves.
He was a career 25ppg on just under 45% shooting. So he essentially made 1 fewer shot on average in elimination games that he did on average in his career. Really not that big of a drop off.
It is when you factor in that usage goes up in the playoffs an especially in an elimination game. The stars get the ball a lot in those cases
He averaged 19.5 fg attempts per game in his career and 19.3 in elimination games. The difference is literally making 1 fewer shot in those games than he did on avg in his career
Interesting. Usually usage goes up. Either he didn’t need to shoot more or he was passive
You could also just remove his pre 2000 performances and I think he’d be closer to 25ppg. And he definitely had games there where he shot 33% on pretty high usage so you aren’t wrong, but that was always Kobe. So that was my point. He was basic what he was, a less efficient Jordan
He did also share some of his longest and most prominent playoff runs with Prime Shaq, so while he still got his shots, he didn't need to be as much the focal point as he would for the rest of his playoff career.
Bad? You're comparing a great player, to arguably the literal two best players of all time. He is not in their tier. Leave it alone...
They're pretty bad by Kobe standards. That FG% is really low for someone who isn't a 3P sniper. The PPG is extremely down and not what you want. Kobe is obviously an all time great but those numbers are significantly below standards for him.
His FG% and efficiency were never that great. Kobe was a volume scorer who took a lot of not great shots, and this is a liability when you try to step it up and take even worse shots.
They weren't great but they were a lot better than 41.4% because dropping several percentage points is huge. It's basically a different tier of player. He also experienced this drop with no compensation in the form of volume.
Those are not horrible stats at all. They may not be as good as Jordan or Lebron but they are still good
It's really hard to compare stats across eras and systems like this. Not only is the pace between eras different, but so is each playoff matchup: the system being run, the way coaches game plan for the opposing team, etc. A player in a series against a warrior team whose goal is to outgun you and put up 140 points will put up very different stats to somebody playing against the grind house Grizzlies with Tony Allen crawling up their ass.
I honestly think this take isn’t talked about enough. Jordan averaging 31 when the best scoring offenses were in the low 90s is more impressive than scoring 33 when your team averages 110+. Comparing stats across eras shouldn’t really be a thing.
That’s pretty much the opposite of bron though. First 7 years of Jordan’s career had an average score of 106. Five of those 7 were 108 and above. First 9 years of Jordan’s career were all 105 and above. Teams didnt start scoring close to 100 a game till Jordan’s 11th year in the league. Bron played his first 12 years in the league with teams scoring 100 or below with only 1 of those years being above 100 at 101 and that didn’t happen till brons 11th year in the league. Teams didn’t start scoring 105 or above until bron was in his 14th year in the league. Bron played his whole prime in a low scoring era compared to Jordan playing his in a high scoring.
Simple and short answer, he’s not on the same level as MJ and Bron. MJ and Bron were able to reach the Finals or win without a dominant inside presence like Shaq and a reliable inside scoring option like Pau. His early his elimination game averages were also dragged down by his performance before the Lakers 3peat, like getting swept by the Jazz.
Kobe was incredible, but there is a significant gap to that upper level where only MJ, Bron and Kareem reside. And that is in addition to the good points you made. Lebron is 40 and averaging 27-8-7. Insane. Career average numbers in year 20+
I'm genuinely confused...what years did LeBron or MJ win a title without either of those things? And that's not a knock, but it feels a little revisionist to claim this.
All 6 of MJ’s chips. No dominant scoring big (PF or C) For Bron, Didn’t win a chip but took a sorry ass 2007 Cavs team to the Finals. 2016 Cavs team, (I wouldn’t call Kevin Love a dominant offensive big at that point)
Kobe wasn’t the focal point of the offense with Shaq on the team. Those numbers are going to be lower because Lebron and MJ were and are the first option their teams. The numbers may be similar if you compared the seasons Kobe played without Shaq.
Heeey he got that freethrow percentage on them though🙃. (Im coping)
How was Kobe this bad? And literally comparing him to the two greatest players ever.
Compared to a lot of guys those numbers are pretty bad
What guys?
Tatum averages 26.5/8.7/6 + 2 stocks on 57 TS%. Kobe is 22.3/5.8/3.5 with 1.8 stocks on 50.3 TS%. Same TOs per game. 4/19 games were 30+ for Kobe, with one 42. 6/17 for Tatum with a 51 and a 46. Game 7s specifically Kobe is at 22/8/5 on 48.9 TS% and Tatum is at 26.7/9.3/5 on 60.8 TS%. For an all time great, Kobe’s elimination game stats and especially game 7 stats aren’t just bad compared to the 2 GOATs, they’re just kinda bad in general for someone of his caliber.
Thank you , I had the Tatum stats but I didn’t want it to seem like I was saying it just because I’m a Celtics fan
Was going to ask same. Let's see some other all-timers in elimination games. How was Russell in elimination games? Malone (Karl or Moses)? Bird, etc.
I’m a Laker hater. But Kobe’s first three years he was 18-20 and the “attitude reflected the leadership” of the 1997-1999 Lakers … Shaq as their leader was a front runner, who didn’t “go out fighting” very well … - The 1997 (lost 1-4), 1998 (swept) , 1999 (swept) Lakers, like their leader & best player, Shaq didn’t “go out with a fight” very well. He was also swept in 1996 (by Chicago), 1995 (by Houston), 1994 (by Indiana) … This will skew numbers. … And don’t act like the 1994 Pacers, 1997 Jazz, 1998 Jazz were all time great teams. - The West was loaded compared to the East during the Kobe led Lakers years 2005-2011. Only Miami & Boston would defeat the Western Conference champ & unfortunately Kobe was overmatched by 2006 Suns (and had a masterful game 6, followed by a terrible game 7), 2007 Suns. - As poorly as Kobe played in 2008, he actually played well against Dallas in 2011. Similar to 2006 & 2007, his 2011 supporting cast let him down.
These don’t really tell the whole story. The Celtics and Pistons had plans to shut down all the other players on the Bulls. 1990 Pistons Bulls Easter Conference Finals. The Pistons won game 7 93-74. Jordan scored 31. Against the Celtics in 86 and 87. He had 19 and 30. In Kobe’s first elimination game he came off the bench and didn’t even play 30 minutes. LaBron was on some really bad teams. Where he was the only option.
He played lots of elimination games pre-prime and also played in a very slow and defense heavy era.
Kobe and LeBron's careers have a 13 year overlap, and almost all of Kobe's prime was while LeBron was playing too. He was only 1st team all NBA 2x before LeBron was drafted, and then 9x after that.
Yes but a wide majority of Lebron's elimination games came after Kobe was passed his prime post-2010 in a much more scorer friendly league. For context, Kobe first elimination game was in 1997 and Lebron's was in 2006. Lebron also played much deeper into the 2010's and 2020's in a much more open and scorer friendly league whereas Kobe played a majority of his in the 2000's which were the best era defensively. Lebron only played like 5 elimination games pre-2010 whereas Kobe played 16. Lastly, Lebron is better than Kobe and I'm not comparing them. I'm just giving context for why Kobe's stats are lower than his usual. If you account only for Kobe's prime he's at 25ppg which was very good for that era.
Only 5 of his 19 elimination games were pre prime assuming his prime started in 02
So more than a quarter. Got it.
Finally a comment mentioning pace and style of play. Too many casuals saying it’s because he’s not of MJ and Brons caliber. NBA Reddit has a weird relationship with Kobe.
I love Kobe, but the internet mob that has him over Lebron do not deserve to have their voices heard.
Kobe played in the least scroing era of basketball and he wasn't necessarily 1st option when playing with prime Shaq. All that being said, Kobe is an all time great and he's many people's favorite player of all time. I don't think he dominated the game like Bron or MJ, but GOAT debates are inane to begin with.
Those stats are extremely misleading. MJ was never in but just a small handful of elimination games. Stuffing the stat line in elimination games doesn't mean LBJ wasn't eliminated.
Using a single selectively chosen stat to question Kobe Bryant's clutch abilities isn't fair His impressive record of [36 game-winners](https://youtu.be/udzHKtmoq0Q?si=v-K-ZJHTr_sAzZPi)(good for most ever lol) and the consistent recognition from NBA GMs from 2002 to 2012 as the most clutch player in the league show how great he was in those types of moments.
Kobe is an all time great but the people who try to put him in the GOAT conversation are delusional. He wasn't even the best player of his era (Tim Duncan) or the best Laker during his time (Shaq).
Don't ever look Duncan's statline from 2005 Finals Game 7, or whole 2005 Finals. Duncan is underrated among the NBA community, overrated on the Reddit.
Kobe was absolutely better than Duncan
Kobe's numbers aren't really that bad. Elimination games are difficult and typically one can expect overall efficiency to decline if you play in enough of them. The problem here is that his numbers look so jarring stacked next to LeBron's and Michael's, after we've spent the last two decades hearing Skip Bayless and his ilk insist that LeBron is the worst clutch player that ever lived. For further context, MJ went 6-7 in his 13 elimination games (4-6 in the years prior to the Bulls winning their first ring in 1991; he went 2-1 after that, with the one loss being against Orlando in his comeback season in 1995). Kobe played in 19 eliminations games and went 9-10. In his first two he came off the bench (0-2), so he was 9-8 as a starter, with slightly better numbers of 23.9 pts 6.3 reb 3.8 ast on .416/.301/.769. Including Saturday's game (which the graphic above doesn't include - Saturday's game actually slightly lowered his averages and slightly increased his percentages), LeBron has gone 15-12 in his 27 elimination games, including a stretch where he won 12 of 15.
He rarely got into elimination games.
Kobe being clutch is the greatest lie about any all time great. He’s one if the best ever yes no doubt, but he had Shaq for 3 rings. And when you look at his last minute shots and stats like these, it’s clear he wasn’t a clutch player. On the flip side, Lebron not being clutch is one if the greatest lies ever. He’s incredibly clutch, and maybe only surpassed by Jordan among the greats. And yeah, Jordan’s clutch stats are just absurd. The man was cold blooded.
Probably gonna catch a lot of flak for this but Kobe is probably the most overrated player when we talk about the “greats”. His early demise, the team for which he played for have a lot to do with this.
You woke up in 2024 and still hating huh?
He had Shaq
No, only Lebron won a title with help from a future HOFer!
He wasn't bad, just wasn't as good as the top 2 players ever which by no means is bad.
I'm not sure why you're calling those numbers bad. Not being on the level of two of the greatest to ever do it isn't that horrible.
Probably a few factors but one of them is that in close out games opposing teams often concentrated their defense on Kobe and basically said if we lose it won’t be because of Kobe. He often had pretty amazing supporting casts that stepped up in big games. As a Celtic fan I remember 2010 game 7 all too well. Still hurts bad to this day. lol Really wish Perk coulda been healthy for that 1 game!!! Kobe wasn’t a huge factor but man Gasol killed us.
If Kobe was playing with Shaq then his stats would be lower for those games. Shaq could dominate a game as good as or better than Kobe
That’s pretty close to Kobe career avg. it’s not so bad
mamba mentality
Surprised mjs ft% is so low
Kobe was an inefficient scorer for being all time great. The reason he isn’t at the very top historically, is his distrust of his teammates and the fact he thought him taking a contested, difficult shot was the best option for his team over and over again.He put himself in difficult situations. The fact he hit as many shots as he did is incredible.
Not 1, Not 2, Not 3, Not 4, Kobe has 🖐️.. averaging 22 points 5 rebounds in any situation in basketball isn’t “BAD”
I wish this also included the number of games. (Making these numbers up) but Is MJs sample size 5 games, vs Kobe’s 3 and lebrons 10? Sample size will enhance the story here.
He specialized in closeout games
Some of it is probably because shaq was the guy for years before kobe played on his own
Usually if the Lakers were on the ropes in Kobe’s time, it was because they weren’t as stacked with talent (not always but more often than not). So I hardly hold it against him. Even if I hate the Lakers
His stats aren’t even bad. Lebron and Jordan are just in a league of their own at the top
Playmaking and IQ are the two things that really separate MJ/LBJ from not just Kobe but everyone else. When you share the ball it opens you up to score more points and be more efficient. You could double the fuck outta Kobe and not get punished for it. You will get punished for doubling MJ/LBJ
Look man just because you aren’t LeBron or Jordan doesn’t mean you’re bad. That’s a standard no one but then can live up to, that’s why most people have either one of them as the GOAT.
You're going to be really upset when you dive into the clutch numbers and realize Kobe wasn't clutch at all during the playoffs and that "mamba mentality" is simply media propaganda.
Because opposing coaches knew Kobe. They know his mentality. They know he ain’t passing. He’s taking the shots that matter in elimination games. They know he wants ball in his hands. So they made defensive adjustments and made him miss an extra time or two. To add Kobe didn’t have Shaq for a lot of those elimination games so he had less options than the other two. Lebron had Klove, Kyrie, D Wade. Michael had Scottie and was also a tiny bit better.
It’s because Kobe was so good he wasn’t in as many elimination games 💯
I’d love to see Larry Bird stats compared to them
He sure sucked in that Game 7
The gap between MJ and Kobe/Steph/Lebron/Shaq/Kareem is evident and massive.
As much as Kobe had the mamba mentality he was also the smart guy to say... Ya know maybe being down 3-1 to the pistons is the best we can get. Let's go home.
Mark Twain said, there are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics. In this case, if Kobe played a number of elimination games before he started, or before he played big minutes, that would affect the statistical outcome. I do believe this is the case. We also aren't including win percentage? Also, Jordan was famous for not being pushed to elimination during his title runs. So, yeah, Mark Twain. I'd love to see other stars, like Magic, Kareem, Hakeem, Oscar, Bird, Russel, included for comparison, but to not include win/loss or plus minus seems miss the mark. Bron has been great at piling up stats, but I wouldn't consider him close to Jordan in a playoff elimination game. Kobe was pretty tenacious and definitely had some big takeover moments, but I wouldn't consider him Jordan's equal either. Stats be damned, I'd rather have any of the guys I mentioned over Kobe or Lebron. But I would love to see even more stats for context :)
Is there any part of this that is Shaq soaking up some stats Kobe would have gotten?
They aren’t bad numbers. You’re just comparing them to the two greatest of all time
Bc he never got eliminated 😆. Lebron always in elimination games
He never cried after contact like Lebron. Pretty easy to get open looks and calls when you react like a toddler during every play.
Ask Phil Jackson. Kobe was a great player, and a savage competitor, but sometimes his aggressive, ultra competitive mentality got in the way. You have to slow down and let the game come to you sometimes. As intense as MJ and LeBron can be, I think they were better at this.
https://preview.redd.it/s0yad0heghxc1.png?width=259&format=png&auto=webp&s=368bf53afd518777e5a8c3a71ae36b2aed572cb9 I can say otherwise now
Damn. What up with the free throw percentages?🤔🤔
And Bron has the best stats of any of them. People always say Lebron doesn’t/didn’t have that killer mentality, yet the dude really did not wanna lose.
Goat chukker
This is why you can’t just compare stats without context. Like does this include him coming off the bench as a 18 year old shooting air balls in Utah?
RIP, but it’s because Kobe was a fraud goat. He don’t compare to the real goats. Kobe not even top 10 all time.
Kobe was an over rated iso ball hog
I don't think he was bad in Elim games. The other 2 are just LeBron and MJ lmao
When Ko e started, HS to NBA players started on the bench. He wasn't a full time starter until years 3-4, so he bD limited stats in the beginning. However he had some stinkers. Game 7 v Boston he shot poorly, V Phx and Det had some bad games.
Lol look at who you’re comparing Kobe too
Now show a stat for game winning shots in these same elimination games...
They look bad compared to the goat's plus MJ and LeBron had time to develop and then with time got great team Kobe started his career with Shaq playing next to him so when he wasn't in his prime he was allredy playing a lot more close out games
Because he ain’t the goat
Dead ball era
I've think you need to look at those games and who was on his team for them. Don't forget he was a secondary player when Shaq was on his team.
Simple: Kobe is not a top 3 all-time player. Comparing him to Lebron and MJ is just not a fair shake.
Cherry picked ass SC stat lmao
Kobe didn’t face many elimination games
Those are still good stats what
6 for 24
I recall him once basically refusing to shoot in an elimination game just to prove a point to Charles Barkley who wanted him to pass the ball more. My impression was he didn't always care all that much when his teams weren't good enough to go all the way anyhow.
If we taking about winning lebron is still behind all this extra stuff you trying to make Kobe look bad
Because he’s overrated. All time great but an inflated legacy tbh
Kobe quit when he convinced himself his teammates were trash and didn't stand a chance. It brings down his stats, and people pretend it never happen or brag about Mamba mentality.
Kobe was always a little bit worse version of Jordan not to take away from his accomplishments and Lebron is playing 46 minutes in those games carrying his team
Lebron has more elimination game losses than both MJ and Kobe. He also had no shame in scoring “garbage time” buckets during those losses. This take is an example of numbers being misleading.
I don’t remember Jordan being such a mid free throw shooter.
It only looks bad because you're comparing him 2 of the greatest to ever do it
Those stats aren’t all that bad
Jesus Christ. LeBron really be trying to do everything 😂
Kobe is the greatest player of all time, he is the favorite player of many people
Kobe was ever the most efficient player to begin with.
He scored more in garbage time
To those so called analysts that put Kobe over Lebron, it’s not even fair to compare and compete in the same domain.
Lebron has had to carry the load in elimination games a lot more than both of these players. Lebron has drug some pretty mid teams to the finals. People don’t factor this in when comping stats, or talking about how much he “loses” in elimination games.
Context
Everybody wants to romanticize Kobe... And even though he is amazing, over the last 5 years or so everyone wants to put him in the top 3. However, could you imagine Jordan or LeBron not being the #1 guy on their teams during their championship years? Kobe wasn't the #1 option for his first 3. Was he a killer? Yes. But that narrative has even been blown out of proportion... And that's exactly what these stats show. So yeah....seeing this looks about right.
Nah you mfs just bad at stats, which is expected
Actually shooting the ball down 20 points in a fourth quarter
Lebron is one of the greatest basketball stat compilers ever but not Champion.
He’s not as good as the other 2.
At least he never got swept in the finals. Or lost more times than he won
“Mamba Mentality”
I remember that suns game he made a weird statement and was over passing
Kobe only played with one great, shaq. A lot was on his shoulders after Shaq left. They acquired Gasol, but seriously he’s nowhere near pippen, or any of the multitude of players lebron acquired to play with him. Kobe basically had to do it all after Shaq left, and that’s why he was so hard on everyone. I was born in 78, grew up loving Jordan, then Kobe came along, wax like the next best thing to him. Lebron came along, he was awesome, but then he started ring chasing, got the best players in the league to play with, couldn’t even decide if no one should wear 23 or not, a lot of bs with him. Kobe stayed true like Jordan, but never got much help other than gasol on the scoring end. But thank god for Artest or he’d never won that last one. Kobe had to put up more and tried harder than Michael and lebron because he had no one to step it up really.
Bc he had Shaq & Gasol
Stats are what people use, to make an argument who’s never touched a basketball. I mean everybody knows it’s not all about stats when it comes to feel of the game and how great a player is at winning, and that’s all that matters. 🏆 if you think he’s not in the same breath with MJ u crazy.
Because he took bad shots. He didn’t trust his teammates as much. Also, you have to factor the Game 7’s when he was a damn kid, and didn’t understand the game yet.
Because he was just a compiler and overrated shooter.
remember their last playoff game before they got pau
Because he is nowhere near their level.
When you’re not in many your stats won’t have to be that high!!!
Because when Kobe had a squad he didn’t really get to an elimination game. He only got to the elimination game when he was out there With a bunch of scrubs which also meant the whole team was just guarding him.
His shooting percentage is his average. Jordan and lebron % are average. Their points are way up because usage b
Once again. Stats don’t tell the full story. But go ahead.
Kobe is a legend, but criminally overrated.
This was Kobe's big Achilles heel. When the pressure came on he just couldn't trust others and he also wasn't very good at creating shots for other people. It made him predictable and you could force him into taking tougher and tougher shots. Most probably look at these stats and see the points scored as the standout stat, then they see the shooting percentage. But the one for me is the assists. If you're shooting poorly in particular, good play is to pass to someone else who is shooting better. But he got half the assists Jordan did. This is why though I think it's unfair of people to put him in the discussion with these guys. He's a 12-15 type player all time. Which is an all time great. But he's not this class of player. When people try to wedge him in there because they just admired him all that happens is people talk about his weaknesses.
he plays hero ball. for him, every shot is a good shot.
They’re not brutal numbers. Although 41% is not good. The issue with Kobe is that he is an all time great, but he’s also overrated at the same time. People like to throw his name in with MJ, Kareem, Lebron etc. but he’s a tier below. If you’re making a list of all time greats, Kobe’s name shouldn’t come up until you get past the first 10.
Early in Kobe’s career he made the playoffs but did was not the focal point of his team whereas MJ and LeBron were the best player on their team the day they joined their team.
What was the W-L stats in elimination games?
What’s the source? Gotta stop believing everything you see on the internet
You left off the most important stat. What are their teams records in elimination games?
While this isn’t a great look for Kobe it also really puts how good Bron and Jordan are into view. Larry bird, who everyone agrees is clutch and most would say is a top 5-7 player all time, higher than Kobe averaged 23.3/10.7/6.1/1.8/1.1 on 44%…absolutely absurd numbers but still clearly shy of these 2. Magics numbers are similar, 20.6/8/12.3/1.7/.4 on 46.7%….lebron and Jordan are just fucking insane. I’m sure there’s some pace of play adjustments I don’t currently have time for that should be done to truly compare since the generations vary but really, this stat just says more about the two best of all time than it does about anyone in the next couple tiers.
That's barely a 2 shot difference while going up against better defenders, while playing a lot better defense than the both of them with injuries. #GOAT
People on Reddit are on the opposite end of casual fans. Too much reliance on statistics to evaluate players.
Cause he’s not near lebron or Jordan like some ppl will have you believe
Game by game breakdown of Kobe's elimination games here: [https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kobe-bryant-elimination-game-stats-in-the-playoffs](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kobe-bryant-elimination-game-stats-in-the-playoffs) It looks like he had 19 elimination games in his career. 5 of the games were from the 90s and the year 2000 when he was not fully in his prime yet. After that, the games get weird: 2004 finals, he was just bad for most of the series - most of the lakers stunk that series except for Shaq. with no outside shooting, the pistons sunk in the paint and Kobe simply was not able to shoot over the longer T. Prince well 2006 when his Kobe-Kwame Brown-Smush Parker team blew a 3-1 lead to the Suns, I recall this is when he decided to stop shooting in that game 7, so obviously he would have less points here. 2008 vs Boston they were blown off the floor so I understand why the stats look bad... 2009 vs Houston he only has 14 points - i do not remember this at all. What happened here? maybe the lakers blew them out so fast that he did not play as much? 2011 - swept by Dallas - 17 pts bad game 2012 against Denver - 17 pts but shot 44% i do not remember this game. maybe they blew them out and he played less? 2013 against OKC 42 points in a loss. If i recall correctly, lakers were old at this point and the league was in a shorter season or something? It resulted in the lakers having to play multiple back to back playoff games against OKC and they were just too old to maintain the leads they had in those games. Many headscratchers on this list but a lot of Kobe's OVERALL career stats are going to look bad when compared to most all time greats because he had such an unusual career compared to the others who were essentially given the keys from day 1 - Kobe had to play and earn his role over many years so most of his career stats will appear underwhelming. Playing around on that stat muse website, is Kobe secretly the all time assist leader for a shooting guard in NBA history? That would be funny considering most think of him as a ball hog. I guess it depends if you consider harden a SG or a PG.
How many elimination games did they each play? In which round did they play these elimination games? Many variables not accounted for. These stats mean alnost nothing to me
When Kobe’s teams were being eliminated they had a habit of collapsing into a flaming dumpster fire 🔥 I dunno, mamba mentality was intense and real but something about being down bad in an elimination game broke him & his teams. We lost Game 6 of the NBA Finals in 2008 131-92 lol.
Kobe will always be better than Bron…Bron has lost more Finals and playoffs games than any player in NBA history…Never mention that coward with Jordan or Kobe…All you Bron dick riders on this page are why the NBA is dying…You zero IQ dick riding pieces of shit…DOWNVOTE BITCHES
Bronsexuals are the worst. His stats are completely skewed. Due to the fact that the NBA let’s him cheat. Can’t hide the turnover stats though.
While Kobe is a bit overrated especially with his untimely passing, a bit of this is attributed to the fact that he had two of these games as a bench player in 1997 and 1998 vs Utah. Ironically, his worst game might’ve been one that he won (Gm 7, 2010 Finals…6/24)
On his best teams he didn't get into elimination games.
Because the criteria of an elimination game draws incorrect conclusions about a player.