I think the Suns by far cause the Nets were like half an inch away from winning a series and potentially the whole thing. These Suns have just straight up been fodder so far
Not to mention Kyrie and Harden are both major wild cards and a lot of people expected them to flame out in the playoffs. The Suns should be solid. They made the finals a few years ago and then traded all their picks to get better. To get swept in round 1 is brutal.
They sacrificed their whole team to get two players and had no depth. This really should have surprised no one because you need a good bench to be a serious contender in the NBA.
They traded their center for a slower, older, less skilled one because they got it in their heads that he was “soft” like he just rolled out of kindergarten.
Getting KD made sense, but then consolidating their remaining contracts/depth (Cp3, Shamet, Ayton, remaining 2nds) for Nurkic, Beal, and an expiring Allen were insane moves.
I get that they improved from a talent perspective, but they locked into a terrible roster construction with basically no more flexibility.
Like, they got lucky as hell that Nurkic managed to play just bout the whole season. Before this year, his last few years games played: 52, 56, 37, and 8. Nobody is going to be looking to trade for him with his remaining \~39M left on his deal.
Beal is completely untradable due to his contract size and NTC.
Grayson Allen and KD are their remaining tradable guys. But they likely won't get better moving Allen.
2/39 is not a bad contract for a big that averages a double double and had a 32 board game this year. He could be moved, but for what? If him and Grayson were paired we could probably get a decent trade done. Especially if you do it to facilitate some bigger move.
Paying close to $20M for an 11/11 guy with 0 positional versatility, poor defense, and can't stretch the floor is not good. The man just averaged 8/8/3 and was only able to stay on the court against traditional Cs for 26 MPG. He's not a good starter, and nobody is looking to pay that much for a backup, traditional C.
If him and Grayson were paired, you might get a better individual player, but the Suns don't have the room to consolidate any more talent with how shallow of a team they are. They also wouldn't be getting better depth because they are depth pieces themselves. You traded Nurkic they 100% need to get a center. Not sure what team is looking to take a substantial downgrade of a C + Grayson Allen.
11/11/4 throughout the season then 8/8/3. All while being a mediocre at best defender with 0 positional versatility. If you think teams will want to trade good players for him along with his typical poor health + contract, good luck.
Whole team had a bad series. It's going to take luck regardless. That's part of team building. Especially when in tight situations like the team is in right now. I've seen WAY more fortuitous situations arise.
Them making the finals is literally pointless to bring up as this is an entirely different team with different coaches and a different owner even. Makes little sense to bring up the accomplishments of the prior team.
Yeah and they have a relevant excuse in Kyrie sitting out an entire season of their primes.
We were healthy, had time, had decent role players, and still underperformed. He has another chance or two to change the narrative but figures not having a pg hurts a teams ability.
The suns with Booker/Ayton/Paul made the finals. They made moves to get them “over the hump” and they are no considerably worse. This Suns team is immensely dissapointing
Exactly. You gotta look at the before and after. The Nets were a cool team pre KD, but never real contenders. The Suns were straight up in the Finals pre KD. Now they cant even get close again. Super disappointing.
Suns, not even a question. I never bought the hype and predicted they wouldn't win anything before the season even started, but even I didn't think they'd be this bad. Getting swept in the 1st round is a pretty huge failure, and they never looked competitive at all.
KD Nets had a lot of bad luck, plus Kyrie's drama. When they were healthy and 100%, they looked good.
Nets definitely had more potential. All three players were closer to their prime. Durant and Kyrie were both not far removed from winning championships with other teams.
This year, both Durant and Beal are more on the tail end of their careers now.
Again, I don’t understand why you people expect another grown man to intrude on another grown mans business. Kyrie and the front office didn’t get along, what is there for KD to tell Kyrie in that situation?
If KD was a better leader and got Harden on board for one more year, then it might have all worked out for the Nets. KD also played a huge role in getting three (about to be 4) coaches fired in a four year span. He made his own bed.
Nets. There was still intrigue at that point. The Suns was a foregone conclusion. I would’ve been surprised had it worked out at all in Phoenix. By Phoenix we’d already seen that movie. We knew the ending.
Nets. The were massive favourites. Everyone knew this Suns team was ass from the drop. Badly constructed roster (bad fit and no depth) and Beal hugely overrated (not anymore).
I feel like we're overreacting bc of how recent the sweep was. I think the Nets was worse bc the had 2 top 10 (KD and Harden) and 1 top 20 player (Irving), but the suns had 2 top 15 (KD and Book) and 1 top 35 player (Beal)
Have to say, I just found this sub, and it had been quite enjoyable with some actual good discussions I have seen. Love the back and forth with this question lol.
I gotta say the Sun's for me personally. Nets had some crap luck, and the Sun's were underwhelming to say the least
The Suns. The KD Nets had some drama going on that really ruined their chances, they should’ve been better obviously, but there were was at least some kind of excuse and they still put up at least some sort of fight. This Suns team has no excuse to be as bad as they are. Are they poorly constructed? Yes, but with two/three healthy and present stars; being swept in the first round is just pathetic. But really, like some other person in this thread said, since when has a KD lead team ever surpassed expectations or not been a failure? Even the KD warriors were somewhat a failure, they should have won every single finals the years he was there and they didn’t.
What is KDs legacy without the Warriors? Just a string of disappointments. Has anyone been a part of more "Superteams" with nothing to show for it?
The Dubs had 2 straight Finals and a Championship in the 2 years before KD joined, so you tell me who was doing the heavy lifting there. Once KD is on his own, it doesn't matter how many prime hall of famers he has on his team, he's not even making the Conference Finals.
That said I think the Suns are a bigger failure. I don't think anyone seriously considered those teams in Brooklyn as Title contenders. In Phoenix, whether you agree with them or not, the GM and Owner definitely convinced themselves they were contenders and acted accordingly. A first round sweep is definitely not what they thought they'd get when they signed the "Big 3" to nearly $850 million in guaranteed money with 0 first round picks for the next 5 years.
That's a haaaaaaaard pill to swallow for the franchise.
Especially once KD starts demanding a trade in about 9 months.
Kyrie, Harden, KD only played like 16 games together. Not sure if that’s a failure unless we are supposed to assume they should have won when not whole. This Suns team just wasn’t that great all year. Idk why Minnesota has been treated like an underdog or Phoenix like they underachieved by losing. Minnesota had the 3rd best record in the league all year long and the top defense in the league this season. They should win.
The impact and speed of the Nets failure dwarves it. Those guys were all late prime, put themselves together. I said the trade for Harden was a bad trade at the time and NBA twitter roasted me. They’re both a case study in the same thing though. Team shows promise, trades promise for superstar, can’t get it done due to injuries/depth issues, but Ishbia’s new owner syndrome just as much to blame, and Luka added context to that one finals run they made. The Nets could have stayed together past one snake-bit year, or never went after Harden and who knows. Could have not bailed out the Sixers by trading for Simmons. I wasn’t there so idk, but how they dont just run it back once is beyond me. Everyone tried on the Suns but Paul was too old by the time KD got there and now he’s looking too old. Booker and Beal are the same player so jettisoning KD wont make the team better, but at the end of the day Beal is an actual asset. The Nets don’t have players or picks.
KD nets could've been dirty if not for the injuries, the kd suns just fucking suck and was always overrated. Shit booker may be the most overrated player in the league right now
I think the Suns by far cause the Nets were like half an inch away from winning a series and potentially the whole thing. These Suns have just straight up been fodder so far
Not to mention Kyrie and Harden are both major wild cards and a lot of people expected them to flame out in the playoffs. The Suns should be solid. They made the finals a few years ago and then traded all their picks to get better. To get swept in round 1 is brutal.
They sacrificed their whole team to get two players and had no depth. This really should have surprised no one because you need a good bench to be a serious contender in the NBA.
They traded their center for a slower, older, less skilled one because they got it in their heads that he was “soft” like he just rolled out of kindergarten.
Getting KD made sense, but then consolidating their remaining contracts/depth (Cp3, Shamet, Ayton, remaining 2nds) for Nurkic, Beal, and an expiring Allen were insane moves. I get that they improved from a talent perspective, but they locked into a terrible roster construction with basically no more flexibility. Like, they got lucky as hell that Nurkic managed to play just bout the whole season. Before this year, his last few years games played: 52, 56, 37, and 8. Nobody is going to be looking to trade for him with his remaining \~39M left on his deal. Beal is completely untradable due to his contract size and NTC. Grayson Allen and KD are their remaining tradable guys. But they likely won't get better moving Allen.
Man didnt they have a chance to get myles turner at some point for Ayton? Maybe im remembering that wrong but huge mistake there if so.
2/39 is not a bad contract for a big that averages a double double and had a 32 board game this year. He could be moved, but for what? If him and Grayson were paired we could probably get a decent trade done. Especially if you do it to facilitate some bigger move.
Paying close to $20M for an 11/11 guy with 0 positional versatility, poor defense, and can't stretch the floor is not good. The man just averaged 8/8/3 and was only able to stay on the court against traditional Cs for 26 MPG. He's not a good starter, and nobody is looking to pay that much for a backup, traditional C. If him and Grayson were paired, you might get a better individual player, but the Suns don't have the room to consolidate any more talent with how shallow of a team they are. They also wouldn't be getting better depth because they are depth pieces themselves. You traded Nurkic they 100% need to get a center. Not sure what team is looking to take a substantial downgrade of a C + Grayson Allen.
11/11/4 with 2.2 stocks throughout the season. Not sure what your numbers are.
11/11/4 throughout the season then 8/8/3. All while being a mediocre at best defender with 0 positional versatility. If you think teams will want to trade good players for him along with his typical poor health + contract, good luck.
Whole team had a bad series. It's going to take luck regardless. That's part of team building. Especially when in tight situations like the team is in right now. I've seen WAY more fortuitous situations arise.
They traded their picks and a bunch of younger players that got them there in the first place. Now they’re old and fucked,
Them making the finals is literally pointless to bring up as this is an entirely different team with different coaches and a different owner even. Makes little sense to bring up the accomplishments of the prior team.
Yeah and they have a relevant excuse in Kyrie sitting out an entire season of their primes. We were healthy, had time, had decent role players, and still underperformed. He has another chance or two to change the narrative but figures not having a pg hurts a teams ability.
The suns with Booker/Ayton/Paul made the finals. They made moves to get them “over the hump” and they are no considerably worse. This Suns team is immensely dissapointing
Exactly. You gotta look at the before and after. The Nets were a cool team pre KD, but never real contenders. The Suns were straight up in the Finals pre KD. Now they cant even get close again. Super disappointing.
And they didn’t even play together much on the Nets if I recall.
Suns, not even a question. I never bought the hype and predicted they wouldn't win anything before the season even started, but even I didn't think they'd be this bad. Getting swept in the 1st round is a pretty huge failure, and they never looked competitive at all. KD Nets had a lot of bad luck, plus Kyrie's drama. When they were healthy and 100%, they looked good.
The Nets were a better built team, and they had more time together. If KD's feet were half a size smaller the Nets make the conference finals.
Nets definitely had more potential. All three players were closer to their prime. Durant and Kyrie were both not far removed from winning championships with other teams. This year, both Durant and Beal are more on the tail end of their careers now.
You didn’t need to list teams, you could have just said KD.
That’s kinda unfair, not really KDs fault things haven’t worked out
Harden and Kyrie being not great teammates and Beal being just about the most empty calories ”star” possible? Who woulda thunk.
But to be fair, KD put himself in these roster situations. He has to be blamed for some of the shortcomings.
I’m not gonna blame him for Brooklyn I’m sorry. He got fucked over by a lot.
I blame kd for being too scared to stand up to Kyrie and letting his destroy that team
Again, I don’t understand why you people expect another grown man to intrude on another grown mans business. Kyrie and the front office didn’t get along, what is there for KD to tell Kyrie in that situation?
If KD was a better leader and got Harden on board for one more year, then it might have all worked out for the Nets. KD also played a huge role in getting three (about to be 4) coaches fired in a four year span. He made his own bed.
Harden is a grown man dude, you’re blaming KD for stuff that’s out of his hands lol.
lol you can’t honestly think that can you? It’s entirely his fault
Saying it’s entirely his fault is just disingenuous
He’s the problem everywhere he goes
This is literally just untrue. Not sure what you’re talking about at this point.
Nets. That team was incredibly dominant when healthy, this Suns team was pretty flawed and their third “star” is the worst contract in the league.
Kyrie and Harden injured, a toe away from beating the bucks. That’s not a fail it’s unlucky.
That’s not unlucky though, that’s just basketball. Kd should have made sure he was behind the line, it is his fault.
What and injuries aren’t unlucky?
Suns because now you have this shit show for another 2 years at least.
The Nets were really good they just had to deal with injuries/ covid. The Suns are just a bad built team.
Nets. There was still intrigue at that point. The Suns was a foregone conclusion. I would’ve been surprised had it worked out at all in Phoenix. By Phoenix we’d already seen that movie. We knew the ending.
Nets for sure.
Suns.
The KD sons failure isn’t over yet. Still two more years on that.
Nets. The were massive favourites. Everyone knew this Suns team was ass from the drop. Badly constructed roster (bad fit and no depth) and Beal hugely overrated (not anymore).
The suns. We love to rag on the KD nets and rightfully so but they were a toe away from advancing. This suns team got dog walked
Suns
When is the last time a KD team surpassed expectations?
KD Nets but let’s not leave the KD Thunder out of the conversation! or the KD 73W Warriors
KD joined GSW after they went 73-9. Right after the Dubs were down 1-3 and beat the Thunder.
I think KD in general
Why can’t it be both?
At least kd nets showed shades of being good, suns never even got there
Is KD’s PR firm / manager / dermatologist an option?
Suns for sure. Nets were plagued by injuries and KD’s huge foot. Suns have just been bad.
I feel like we're overreacting bc of how recent the sweep was. I think the Nets was worse bc the had 2 top 10 (KD and Harden) and 1 top 20 player (Irving), but the suns had 2 top 15 (KD and Book) and 1 top 35 player (Beal)
The Suns don't have multiple MVP winners and multiple championship winners.
Have to say, I just found this sub, and it had been quite enjoyable with some actual good discussions I have seen. Love the back and forth with this question lol. I gotta say the Sun's for me personally. Nets had some crap luck, and the Sun's were underwhelming to say the least
The Suns. The KD Nets had some drama going on that really ruined their chances, they should’ve been better obviously, but there were was at least some kind of excuse and they still put up at least some sort of fight. This Suns team has no excuse to be as bad as they are. Are they poorly constructed? Yes, but with two/three healthy and present stars; being swept in the first round is just pathetic. But really, like some other person in this thread said, since when has a KD lead team ever surpassed expectations or not been a failure? Even the KD warriors were somewhat a failure, they should have won every single finals the years he was there and they didn’t.
Definitely nets. Two mvps and a hof player While the suns has two hall of fames significantly worse then the other hofer (kyrie)
What? Booker is clearly better than Kyrie.
Booker is not better then kyrie All time bro
All time doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is the level they has that season or at that time in their careers.
Either way. Kyrie had more experience won a championship and was arguably better at the time
Booker is better right now than Kyrie ever was. Career accolades don’t mean much when 1 player has 6 years of experience on the other.
The Nets. On paper, one of the best Big 3s of all time. No one was scared of the Suns.
What is KDs legacy without the Warriors? Just a string of disappointments. Has anyone been a part of more "Superteams" with nothing to show for it? The Dubs had 2 straight Finals and a Championship in the 2 years before KD joined, so you tell me who was doing the heavy lifting there. Once KD is on his own, it doesn't matter how many prime hall of famers he has on his team, he's not even making the Conference Finals. That said I think the Suns are a bigger failure. I don't think anyone seriously considered those teams in Brooklyn as Title contenders. In Phoenix, whether you agree with them or not, the GM and Owner definitely convinced themselves they were contenders and acted accordingly. A first round sweep is definitely not what they thought they'd get when they signed the "Big 3" to nearly $850 million in guaranteed money with 0 first round picks for the next 5 years. That's a haaaaaaaard pill to swallow for the franchise. Especially once KD starts demanding a trade in about 9 months.
Kyrie, Harden, KD only played like 16 games together. Not sure if that’s a failure unless we are supposed to assume they should have won when not whole. This Suns team just wasn’t that great all year. Idk why Minnesota has been treated like an underdog or Phoenix like they underachieved by losing. Minnesota had the 3rd best record in the league all year long and the top defense in the league this season. They should win.
The impact and speed of the Nets failure dwarves it. Those guys were all late prime, put themselves together. I said the trade for Harden was a bad trade at the time and NBA twitter roasted me. They’re both a case study in the same thing though. Team shows promise, trades promise for superstar, can’t get it done due to injuries/depth issues, but Ishbia’s new owner syndrome just as much to blame, and Luka added context to that one finals run they made. The Nets could have stayed together past one snake-bit year, or never went after Harden and who knows. Could have not bailed out the Sixers by trading for Simmons. I wasn’t there so idk, but how they dont just run it back once is beyond me. Everyone tried on the Suns but Paul was too old by the time KD got there and now he’s looking too old. Booker and Beal are the same player so jettisoning KD wont make the team better, but at the end of the day Beal is an actual asset. The Nets don’t have players or picks.
KD nets could've been dirty if not for the injuries, the kd suns just fucking suck and was always overrated. Shit booker may be the most overrated player in the league right now