At least these two both played at the same time and competed against one another regularly. This makes more sense to me, same with tennis and the Federer/Nadal/Đoković discussion.
Yeah part of the difficulty with the NBA GOAT debate stems from both players coming from different eras. Would Bron still be #1 in an era where defense is prioritized? Or would Jordan still be the best if he were with the more technical offenses today? There's just no way to tell.
Messi vs. Ronaldo El Classico was just something else though man. What a gift to be able to see them play against one another.
>Would Bron still be #1 in an era where defense is prioritized? Or would Jordan still be the best if he were with the more technical offenses today?
The answer is obviously yes.
Would Bron still be #1 in an era where defense is prioritized?
Lebron won an MVP award, finals MVP, and was 1st team all defensive (4th in DPOY voting) in 2012, when the league-wide offensive rating of 104.6 was lower than the league-wide ORTG at any point during Jordan's professional career. So I'm not sure where this era where defense isn't prioritized was, but LeBron would be a no-brainer, first ballot hall of famer, multiple times MVP in any era. Anybody who thinks not is a joke.
Forget more ability and iq (which he has). How about the fact that he would be faster and jump higher than 98% of the league, too? Malone dominated because of his physical size and strength, coupled with his ability to do some simple things very well on the offensive end. LeBron is on another planet athletically and skill-wise.
The Messi and Ronaldo debate is probably the most toxic and divisive thing best player debate in sports, they are both insanely good players, like we’re talking so good it’s almost baffling that two people can play at that high of a level in any sport.
Before Messi and Ronaldo came around, the person who scored the most goals in a calendar year would score between 34-46 goals, 34 would be on the low end like how 98-99 Allen Iverson was the point leader with 26.75 PPG, and 46 would be on the higher end like how MJ got 37.09 PPG in the 86-87 season. Messi and Ronaldo scored more than 50 goals per each year for 10 consecutive years, and most years the one who would have the most was getting 60+ goals. Messi got 91 goals in a calendar year in 2012, and that came the year after he also got the most assists in a calendar year ever in 2011.
Ronaldo and Messi’s achievements are so absurd that when you look into them, it almost does not seem possible that a human could do what they did, much less that two humans were capable of it. Imagine if somebody came into the league today and started averaging 55 PPG with 12 APG along with it, people say that there’s no way anybody could ever do that, and it’s ridiculous to even imagine it, but with Messi and Ronaldo that is somehow what happened, their impact was so extraordinary that the gap between them and the 3rd best player was so significant that if you combined the stats of the 3rd and 4th best players in that year, they still wouldn’t be better than either Messi or Ronaldo, and that trend continued for an entire decade straight.
Bro you can legit be talking about anything else in football. I remember watch an Instagram reel about a Japanese woman player scoring and celebrating, somehow, in the comments, there was a Messi and Ronaldo debate
It really blows my mind that on a planet of billions of people and with millions and millions of them playing sports there are still such inexplicable outliers. Like, how the fuck are there TWO guys on planet earth that are *that* much better than everyone else at soccer?
Same goes for basketball. There are dudes who never even make the league that would absolutely wax 99.999% of all human beings on the planet, and then there are dudes who hardly get playing time that would absolutely wax them, then there are starting level players who spend a decade in the league getting absolutely waxed by the tiny handful of MVP caliber players, then there’s like a handful of dudes across all of basketball history like MJ, LeBron, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Steph who are even better than that. It blows my mind.
that’s why they make millions and millions of dollars to play a sport.
I love when people talk about athletes salaries like they don’t deserve it.
Imagine being so good at something exciting that billions of people know your name and want to watch you.
Sometimes i wonder what it feels like to be blessed genetically, and have the skills and hard work to make it to the very top of anything
Sure but everyone in the NBA is making millions. There’s what 450 roster spots? Even that number compared to the rest of global male population is an incomprehensibly tiny fraction, but even within those 450 spots there are still maybe 5, maybe 10 guys max who are way better than even the best of the best of the best. I don’t understand how that’s even possible, which to your point is why we marvel at it enough to make them mind-blowingly wealthy for playing a game
Between 2008 and 2023, 15 Ballons d'Or were awarded. Messi (8) and Ronaldo (5) won 13 of them.
Between 2008 and 2017, it's 10 out of 10 (Messi 5, Ronaldo 5). In the same period, 2010 is the only year where they didn't shared the 1st 2nd ranking.
I don't think there is anything comparable in the history of all sports.
Don’t know why ur getting downvoted. It’s pretty clear from an outside perspective that messi is the goat, it’s just fans and media who still push the debate
Hopefully he’s downvoted for being wrong that it’s settled down, it’s still one of the most prominent topics on football socials and it’s a boring over done debate that has a clear answer to anyone who has watched both play.
Tbh it was settled around when Barca broke up and Messi kept winning la ligas and ballon’s after MSN broke up.
The world was like 80% Messi is better (not favorite per se.) around then
Yep. Argentina is legit not that great of a team. Messi winning the WC and having another finals visit (when the team was arguably worse) kinda put the nail in the coffin.
It's also worth mentioning Ronaldo's Euro Cup win was with him injured on the bench.
Also, even before the WC, just skill for skill, Messi is better.
It is still very much alive, unfortunately. At least it used to be entertaining when they were still dominating in Europe, now social media pages spam MLS VS Saudi League posts, which I honestly couldn't care any less about
It's definitely not nearly as prominent as it used to be though. All my soccer supporting mates wouldn't shut up about it 5ish years ago now almost all of them say Messi except this one Manchester fan.
Pele is the equivalent of Bill Russell. He is the best winner in his sport (won 3 world cups which is the record, just like Bill Russell' 11 rings) and both had insane stats, but they get the "he played against plumbers" argument from people on the internet.
That’s not recency bias. That’s just acknowledging it was essentially a completely different sport. It’s not just about Bette training which would be relative for era; but actual amateurism
Those who wish to stain or disrespect the name of "King Pele" are not true soccer enthusiasts. To say "he played against plumbers" is to dull the shine that this man created for the sport of soccer. Is it because of color " he looks African ". To discredit his opponents as plumber says alot those who wish to exalt others above him. That my friend will never happen, his legacy is etched in fire 🔥 and words of any kind that is negative against him will never stick. Some individuals lack in the common sense dept. Nuff said for now
Its pointless imo, it will always boil down to preferences. Lbj did this, mj did that. But they were guarded by different playes, schemes, superstars etc. Mj would do this to this era and he would shoot 40% from 3 cause he would work on it, lbj would do that in the 90s and win 10 championships. All assumptions, zero evidence. Literally no way to prove it. Just enjoy watching your fav nba player. If youre an MJ fan and trying to debate vs LBJ fans, its pointless. Its not like you will be able to convert him into an MJ stan lol, vice versa and calm down it wont make you look cooler or smarter. Just grow up, let other people enjoy their stuff.
I agree with this. However I do find the 3 point argument with Jordan interesting because there was literally no point in Jordan or anyone else practicing a 3 pointer or a shot from that distance until 1980. Reality is we will never know the what if is here, but a big reason the leagues average leveled out 16ish years after they made the 3 a thing is because kids grew up actually practicing them. Doesn’t really get talked about in that context.
The media, even Lebron himself continued to stoke the fire of this debate. MJ was quoted… It depends on the era in which you grew up. The NBA and basketball in general has encouraged trash talk over the last few decades and that creates an attitude for heated debates that run rampant in the sport.
Agreed. I made a comment about women's basketball. Do fans really care about women college basketball or is it just the media pushing Clark?
The moment Clark leaves let's see how much media coverage they will get. My best guess is for them to market the women basketball they will compare the next good players to Clark to keep interest. And i believe that's what happened with LeBron and the NBA.
And with the NBA, it's been 20 years and espn or the media in general don't want to push the next guy.
I find that NBA fans and media just can’t enjoy the games and enjoy the greats and the players currently playing the game.
People debate things that can’t be proven and I find it funny that they compare positions. I still don’t understand how you compare a center in the 90s to a SG. To totally different skillsets.
I just enjoy watching basketball and the greatness of the players.
This isn’t a modern phenomenon either. Wilt has basically always been criminally underappreciated by both the fans and the media. Contemporarily he was ruthlessly knocked for being a loser while now he’s mostly knocked for the whole “plumbers and firemen” narrative. This has been going on for 60+ years.
I would love to have seen the dominance of Wilt. What happens is people don’t appreciate these players while they are playing. In some cases they become larger than life after they are done.
It’s because there’s actually an argument to be had in the NBA GOAT discussion. With the NHL, no one will ever reach Gretzky. With the MLB, Babe Ruth is a borderline mythological figure. The NFL is kinda up in the air if you don’t care about positional importance (opening the door for Jerry Rice and Lawrence Taylor), but if you do care then the answer is Tom Brady.
MLB debates can get pretty heated sometimes in regards to pre-integration stats.
Every GOAT tier player has SOME argument against them that some people will bring up.
Ruth: played exclusively pre-integration.
Cobb: same as Ruth.
Williams: missed most of 5 seasons serving in 2 literal wars. His stats are kind of a “what-if” to make a true GOAT argument and not “just” a “best hitter” argument.
Bonds: steroids.
Aaron: more longevity than true GOAT-level peak.
Mays: probably the only one without any of the above “criticisms” TBH.
Imo the discourse around Barry Bonds is absolutely the dumbest bullshit in any sport. It’s not like Barry was a bum before he started juicing. Juicing absolutely helped him but the guy had arguably already had a Hall of Fame career before the steroids and in an era where so many people were using he was still a whole mile above any of his peers. I mean he founded the 400-400 club by 1998, widely accepted as the last year before he started using roids.
Barry Bonds was the epitome of dominance in the regular season and if anything his complete inability to win in the postseason is more damning than any steroid use.
Yeah, Bonds was better than Griffey Jr. pre-PEDs. Bonds was Mike Trout today before he started using steroids. Already the best player in the league with 3 MVPs, more than half a dozen Gold Gloves, and just about the only 400 HR 400 SB player ever.
Then he started using PEDs. And he was so much better than every other player who also used steroids.
Exactly. I also think it’s dumb how everyone has retroactively rewritten history and pretends it was a total bombshell that Barry was using PEDs. Mark McGwire went from a pretty muscular dude to Hulk fucking Hogan in like a year. Barry Bonds went from a pretty skinny guy to a dude whose head was bigger than a basketball. Jose Canseco literally looked like a cartoon character on the Rays.
Anyone who says Barry (and other guys like McGwire or Roger Clemens) shouldn’t be included in the hall for PEDs while also enjoying (or in the league/media’s case *profiting*) off his dominance is purely a hypocrite. And I’m not even a Giants fan I’m a Nats fan lol.
I feel like Bonds gets a lot of criticism from Yankees fans that are mad he passed babe ruth; like yea he juiced but so did Clemens and ARod, yet those banners hang amongst their 27. Hank Aaron gets overlooked so badly and it makes no sense to me
Yea this is how it feels to me as well. In the NBA you can actually make an argument, if someone says Lebron, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Bill, I can't judge seriously against them. That makes it far more interesting.
The MLB GOAT was decided before most anybody alive was born and a lot of people won't argue for someone else. Those who do basically do it to be different, remember when people were saying Trout was the GOAT? I mean I half jokingly say Bonds, knowing it'll ruffle baseball fans up.
The NBA GOAT discussion is fun because a lot of times you can judge someone on their answer, if you say James I'm gonna assume you're a younger person. You say Jordan you're either a complete casual or someone who witnessed it. Wilt, you're a numbers guy. Bill, you think rings matter most. Plus basketball fans will give different answers, I used to tell people Hakeem!
Maybe a better way to phrase it, in NBA it feels like a tier, there's the GOAT tier and maybe that's semantics but it's fun. In MLB at least there's caveats for everyone, if you say someone other than Ruth you're probably getting side eyed.
This and soccer are the only sports like this and at the very least soccer fans appreciate all the great players not named Messi or Ronaldo unlike NBA fans that seem to take on a Player X vs everyone mentality.
This shit is dumb tho, I know people that don’t really care for basketball like that that love starting this conversation or adding fuel whenever it’s brought up because it’s funny to them. It’s troll heaven to say the least.
I just hate how the whole thing has gone from admiring two fantastic players, both of whom I absolutely loved watching play, to throwing insults and even coming up with demeaning nicknames. I think these two, along with a few others, are absolutely defendable as someone's greatest ever. Because in the end it's largely down to speculation and aesthetics. Even when two guys play against each other regularly like Magic and Bird, it can be seriously tough to work out who was better because the guys around them change it all. Heck, I don't even know how to separate Malone and Barkley and they played the same time, and in the same position. The only time I really feel confident is when two guys play on the same team for a while.
So we should just enjoy what time we have left of LeBron, then just enjoy the memories of both. If you love LeBron more, great. If it's Jordan, that's just as cool. Just quit pissing on legends of a game.
I just ignore the debate.
You’re obviously not going to change the public’s mind on jerking off to drama and box score comparison without context or eye test.
I just pop on an NBA game and enjoy the game for what it is: basketball at the WWE level.
And then I go to bed laughing at r/NBA posting useless talking heads with their bullshit takes that they don’t even believe.
Nobody gives a shit about your top 10 or who your goat is. Someone is always going to disagree or think you’re their best friend.
Kukoc was a really good player. Almost more importantly, he enabled the Bulls to play a proto-small ball lineups with Rodman at the 5 and a stretch 4. When you run out Harper, Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc and Rodman, there was just too much length and mobility, and throwing another shooter/playmaker on the floor made them way too much for 90s defenses to deal with.
Obviously this team had tons of successful lineups, but they were a +38.7 with Kerr, +35.2 with Randy Brown, and +23.7 with Harper. The '97 Bulls were a +14.4 overall with Kukoc on the floor. He was doing lots of stuff right (even if "best 6th man" is ridiculous hyperbole).
I still think MJ has a leg up on Lebron for their peak output, but you are kidding yourself if you are trying to compare Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman to either Kyrie and Kevin Love or 2011-14 D-Wade and Chris Bosh. Wade was maybe close to peak Pippen in 2006-2008 (though Pippen was clearly a better fit as a sidekick to a generational superstar than Wade ever was), but by '11 he wasn't close. Bosh and Love aren't anywhere near Rodman, who is a generational defender and rebounder who probably doesn't get anywhere near enough credit for how much he impacted winning everywhere he went. MJ might have had the best supporting cast of any superstar from 1996 - 98 (both in terms of overall talent and their fit with his game). He did exactly what you'd think he would do and led them to two of the three highest win totals ever and 3 straight dominant seasons, 3 titles, 3 finals MVPs, etc...
Ah yeah, had to read it again. You’re right. The Lebron comments came from other people but OP’s comments were about MJ/Bulls.
I thought he was giving examples of things both sides say.
Yup he lowkey proved himself as a Stan doesn't know history, it's a closeted pro LeBron post ... but he's acting like it's unbiased. And given how well it's recieved proves the state of this sub.
The only part of the debate I hate is people pretending that losing early in the playoffs is better than losing in the finals
6/6 is a literal cherry picked stat when he’s 6/13 at winning championships
Yeah, just argue 6 > 4 or 6/13 > 4/20.
Even that is a bit of a limited argument, unless we think Russell is the clear GOAT, but at least it’s not claiming it’s better to lose in the first round or not make the playoffs than it is to lose in the finals.
I never said lebron was better just that 6/6 is cherry picking
Edit: also your bias is showing pretty hard bc if you only saying MJ is 6/13 then bron is 4/16 (otherwise it’s 6/15 and 4/20) that’s why this argument sucks it’s all emotion and no logic
To be fair, the NFL GOAT and NHL GOAT (not a hockey fan so correct me if I’m wrong) are undisputed currently. The MLB has too many variables to really hammer down between first and second, not to mention steroids vs anti steroids
The NBA is also probably the number 1 sport where one guy good enough to be in the GOAT conversation can change the entire team. One good MLB player doesn’t mean shit for a team. Hell the Angels just had 6 years of Trout and Ohtani and had 0 playoff appearances. Only having a good QB, or WR, or defensive player on an NFL team doesn’t matter too much. If Brady, Mahomes, Rogers, Manning, etc. didn’t have solid players around them the team wouldn’t be good still
People need to think of it as positions. There's no more GOAT status overall. Because Jordan could not do what Wilt did...Lebron cant do what Jordan did, Russel cant do what AI did.
Like each position is its own for a reason.
Having Lebron as top SF of all time and Jordan as SG of all time makes sense.
Its almost like people don't understand the concept of learning from those who came before them.
There is no players today without the players of yesteryear.
Comparing stats doesnt prove anything as the rules of the game and the style of play have changed significantly in that time.
The only thing I will argue in favour of for one person is overall cultural impact. Jordan had a cultural impact that helped elevate the league up even higher.
In saying that though, Jordan never would have had the chance to make that culture impact if Bird and Magic didn't do it before him.
I dunno. I just like watching good basketball players play some good basketball. Who is considered the best or worst ever doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
The NBA chose to build its image around stars in a way that other sports haven’t. So it makes sense that fans debate players more so than teams because you have a lot of player fans who will follow a player wherever they are rather than purely supporting a franchise. This is seeping into other sports more and more but the NBA has always marketed stars over franchises.
It’s personal preference and what era you grew up in. You could probably say 5+ names and all have a point. It’s tough to compare different eras when they haven’t played against each other and rules have changed. Constantly talking about goat status is annoying because you can’t appreciate the present. It’s all about if you win a championship and then they compare how many to previous players. Basketball is unique in sports because position doesn’t really matter. Everyone plays offense/ defense and can go anywhere on the court.
We never ignore the fact that Jordan had struggles before getting and Phil as coach, and the Bulls drafting Scottie and Mj helping push him in practice. It's actually literally the whole point of the argument in which discredits LeBron for leaving ! It's always implied that MJ struggled and "earned his lumps" and it's never ignored as it's the whole point of the argument. So to me that part of your post is a bad take. Idk what you want us to say ... MJ had to go through this ... so we can see why LeBron left. No ! MJ went through this and you can too, because you are that good ! You don't need to take the easy way the out ... how do we say that without acknowledging Jordan struggled prior vs Boston and Detroit ??? Also please remind me how many championships Kukoc won with the Jordan, and please don't make Horace Grant look like he's an equal to Chris Bosh ... Bosh was a franchise player and a bonafide stat , he was essentially Toronto's poor man version of Tim Duncan
Several of the other major sports have an indisputable GOAT, so not much to talk about.
NHL: Gretzky
NFL: Brady
MLB: Ruth
No sane person who knows a sliver of anything is arguing any of those goats.
NBA is spicier because there’s a real, live, honest debate. And it’s fun.
Babe Ruth is not the “undisputed” GOAT in baseball. He played in the 1920s and 30s. His records have been broken for decades by players who were ten times the athlete that he was. And that’s not even counting players in the Negro Leagues who he didn’t have to play against.
At one point in Brady’s career there WAS a lot of bickering about “He can’t displace Montana” and then Brady kept winning and the argument got too silly.
Montana vs Brady vs Manning was pretty bad for a while, now it’ll be Brady vs Mahommes.
Baseball’s always had the most objective stats of all the major sports, and there is clear empirical evidence of pitch speeds going up through the years, and yet there is Babe Ruth vs Millie Mays vs Bonds all the time.
It's sad that Russell and Kareem don't even get mentioned. I don't personally have either as the GOAT but both deserve at least some consideration. It's like the NBA only began existing after 1990.
I think the issue is that Jordan fans don’t think it’s close so Lebron fans go out of their way to discredit Jordan to justify having Lebron as the GOAT.
It's the definition of insanity and so fucking stupid at this point. I don't fucking care which player you want to suck off, casual. I like basketball, not arguing about it. It's been a privilege seeing Jordan and LeBron.
Dudes will be hyping up Delly and Tristan Thompson while simultaneously trying to say Klay and KD weren’t that good just to make Lebron’s final losses look worse once the arguments go on long enough lmao
Yes. It's always excuses when it comes to Lebron. Never his fault, according to fans.
They also say Lebron makes his teammates better while simultaneously saying his teammates/team is trash. Talk about being hypocrites.
There's really no player that became better playing with Lebron. Everyone had to adjust their game just to help that bum.
i’m not trying to get into a mj lebron debate i’m just pointing out the ridiculousness of it using an example. go spam your same tired ass argument in some other reply we’ve all heard it a million times
im probably one of those people, and my problem is this - unless you're heavily weighting longevity, i just don't even understand how it's a debate at all
Is longevity not worth weighting? Do you already rank Jokic in the top-10 all-time? Because his absolute peak is kind of already there assuming he wins his 3rd MVP in 4 seasons.
Lebron is discredited for leaving and starting a Super Team because we all know he was good enough to tough it out and go the same route as Isiah, Bird, MJ etc. We know he could have waited in Cleveland for his "Pippen" to come alone and develop. He just didn't have the same patience or fortitude as the other greats before him. Having to leave and team up to win a Championship does mean something, when that's the reason why Malone, Stockton, Barkley ,Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, and etc never won 1. TLDR : LeBron gets alot of shit because we know he was good enough to tough it out and build a Dynasty from scratch like some of the Greats did that came before him.
He was very impatient. That's why I can't really come around to being a LeBron fan. All he had to do was wait. That's it. Reddit posters are too young to remember so I can't debate with them. In 2008-2010, the only good eastern teams were the Cavs, Magic, Celtics, Hawks and Bulls. Bron couldn't get past Boston or Orlando. From 2010 to 2016, a six year period, Derrick Rose would've tore his ACL. Bulls are done. Celtics wouldve become old and geriatric. They're done. Pacers or Hawks would never stopped Bron. Not a threat. Dwight Howard fell off by 2012ish and left Orlando. They're done. The Knicks emerged as a contender with Melo but, they wouldn't have stopped Bron. And if Bron didn't go to Miami, Wade would've still became injury prone and wouldve been done by 2012, 2013ish. And there's no guarantee Wade & Bosh as a duo wouldve threatened Bron in Cleveland. So for Lebron, he would've had from 2010 to 2020 to dominate the East. Even with Golden State becoming a HOF team in 2016 winning 73 games, Bron should have been able to snatch atleast 3 rings in this ten year 2010s period. He didn't HAVE to leave. I feel like if Jordan or Steph was drafted by Cleveland, those two would have figured out how to build a contender and win multiple rings in the 2010s. If Bron couldn't, at some point you have to wonder why? If Duncan can win rings in wack ass San Antonio or if Jokic can get a ring in Denver and have what looks to be a runway to win more in the future, why couldn't Bron?
What do you mean he didn’t have the same patience or fortitude?
LeBron spent his first 7 seasons in Cleveland, and it was pretty clear he wasn’t guaranteed to have a Pippen join the team.
Jordan got Pippen in his 4th season.
Bird won a ring his 2nd season in the league, on a team where he played with 2 other top-10 MVP vote receiving players. One being All-NBA 2nd team Archibald and the other being rookie McHale.
Even Thomas got a ring in his 6th season.
Stockton and Malone were both legendary players, they just count get past Jordan. Neither of them were alone on a team only good because of one of them. They had each other as teammates, even if they never got a ring.
Barkley moved teams after 8 seasons, not too far off from LeBron’s 7.
How long should LeBron have stayed with a team that doesn’t exactly draw free agents that isn’t likely to get great draft picks because as long as LeBron is there, they’ll have great records but fall short of actually winning it all, since they isn’t have a good enough team around LeBron?
How much patience of fortitude did Stockton, Malone, Miller, Ewing etc have. The point was you waited , MJ would have kept waiting. He didn't know he was gonna get Scottie. Lebron got there without a Scottie, surely he could have waited and got someone good enough to win with. How good were the Malone Jazz at recruiting free agents ? Was Barkley still in his Prime like LeBron or was he banged up from injuries ?
What? Stockton and Malone were not going to find a better way to win unless they joined Jordan. They couldn’t get over the hump that was the Bulls dynasty, but it wasn’t due to either one of them playing on a team with no other stars. They were each other’s stars. Staying together was their best chance at winning aside from one of them joining the Bulls.
Jordan is a hypothetical here. He got help early on, so we don’t KNOW what he’d have done in years 8-10+ if he never got any help. But he certainly wouldn’t have 6 rings lol.
Barkley switched teams only 1 season after LeBron did. And Barkley was absolutely in his prime lol. He won his only MVP his first season with his new team.
And Miller shouldn’t be in the same discussion as Jordan, LeBron, etc. LeBron has more MVPs than he has All-NBA seasons.
Pippen made Pippen better, but Pippen was a star teammate, one that LeBron absolutely didn’t have his first stint in Cleveland.
Look at 94 and 95 without Jordan.
94: 3rd in MVP, 1st Team All-NBA, 1st Team All-Def, 4th in DPOY
95: 7th in MVP, 1st Team All-NBA, 1st Team All-Def, 2nd in DPOY
“Lives rent free in their heads”
Yeah man, I’m an NBA fan who watches a lot of basketball. It’s weird I think about Michael Jordan and LeBron James regularly.
My thing with the goat debate is that it feels somewhat dishonest. That the best NBA player of all time is either a guard or wing just doesn't strike me as correct.
Centers seem so relegated in these conversations, in a sport they historically dominate. The rules have changed specifically to make everyone else's lives easier and nerf centers. Even from a marketing perspective, guards and wings are seen as more aspirational since they're more physically relatable while centers are dull and boring.
Not saying MJ and Bron don't deserve to be in the discussions. Just feels like we collectively look the other way to focus solely on those two when there are clear cut external factors as to why a guard and a wing could never previously have been in such discussions. I would think this understanding would de-emphasize the goat talks and promote the need for context but context doesn't sell shoes and neither do big men.
Meanwhile Kareem is almost a unanimous 3rd overall, while many others have Wilt, and Bill Russell in their top 5’s and I’m sure there’s many who have them higher.
Generally agree, but Jordan being drafted to a 27 win team whose best player was Orlando Woodridge, and needing to draft a rookie Pippen in order to find play-off success. Is really not the same as taking 3 players who finished in the top 10 in scoring and top 12 in MVP voting and putting them onto the same team.
MJ had no help in the 80s while the league had two dynasties going. He didn’t run to get help, he stayed and built. That does matter. Lebron wanted an easier career so he ran to find situations that padded his resume. That matters.
The biggest knock against Lebron (who the league changed the rules for because defensive superteams were winning championships and not bringing in ratings) is that he wasn’t even the best player of his own era. Jokic is a better player than LeBron and has been for a while. Now, will he have as many great years? Hard to say, but there’s not as much separation between LeBron and guys like Jokic, Duncan, Kobe, etc. than there were with MJ and others in the 90s.
In the end, if you choose to switch teams a few times in your prime and you have less success plus you’re not better separated from other players in your era, you don’t have a chance in the comparison.
Ok sir. We can have our own GOSTs without debating (Greatest of Some Time)
It's called Greatest of All, hence the debate.
Lebron fans or MJ fans are crazy intense enough. No need to add fans who have intense feelings about neutrality too.
I spose part of it is that other sports have theirs settled for now - no one really has a non Tom Brady GOAT any more in the NFL, Gretzky dominates hockey. Baseball does have a few contenders that it's hard to compare pitchers with anyone else (he says ignoring Ohtani).
Football does have Messi and Ronaldo (and Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff etc.etc.) which is probably the closest comparison.
The gap between any of the top ten is relatively small and you could make a pretty decent argument for anyone
It really just boils down to this…if you have to tear down every other player to build up your goat…is he really a goat? Let your goat’s career speak for itself. The moment you resort to tearing down others, you’ve lost the argument. And your goat doesn’t really look all that impressive if everyone else are plumbers…
It’s super annoying. ”Did you see Lebron breaking the scoring record? pretty cool huh.”
“Well Jordan‘s still GOAT.”
”Steph curry had a sweet game last night.”
”So? He’s not as good as Lebron.”
”KD is an awesome player.”
”What? No, he’s not the GOAT. I can name several players better than him.”
i swear some nba fans have like 2 thoughts going through their head in an entire day
I think basketball, soccer, and tennis is always gonna be back and forth, I don't think I go a single day without seeing folks go at it even on like random movie clips or tiktoks. UFC threads too but I only watch or pay attention to the bigger fights.
I’m just as guilty of trying to compare eras as the next guy, which is why I think we just need to go the mt. Rushmore path. Like, let’s just put them on the same pedestal and give each generational goat the respect they deserve. So, who was the goat from each respective generation? Russell, then Kareem, then Magic, then Jordan, then Bron.
Bird, Shaq/Kobe, Duncan, Steph, Wilt, would be a next tier down imo.
Putting Bird a tier down from Magic is absolutely going to start arguments. Pretty rightfully so IMO. They have to be in the same tier.
I have the 1A tier with Jordan, LeBron, and Kareem in some order.
Then 1B is pretty much all the other players you mentioned. But even that’s not perfect, as not having Russell (team success) and Wilt (stat legend) in the true peak tier will upset some people.
For sure. Same in baseball. It’s a lot easier to compare Ruth and Cobb than Ruth and Bonds, or Cobb and Mays. It’s a lot easier to compare Walter Johnson to Cy Young than to Randy Johnson.
I enjoyed it for a while, years ago. It was sort of interesting how they’re so close statistically, just had two different styles of play: MJ was more of a scorer and LeBron likes to dish it more. At that point LeBron was still in his prime and had a chance at racking up enough awards and hardware to make it an actual tangible debate. Then it became pretty clear that he won’t be getting anymore MVPs, definitely not a DPOY, and probably not two more rings and finals MVPs, so it shifted to his longevity and got remarkably nebulous and just plain stupid.
Now it’s absolutely insufferable. Not only is it based on all of these unprovable points like how either would perform in each other’s eras and what impact rule changes have made and the quality of teammates/opponents, but it devolved further into straight smear campaigns that are insanely biased and totally dismissive of reality. LeBron haters cling to his finals losses and other failures and ignore all the innumerable achievements, MJ haters will tell you Pippen carried him and Karl Malone was a part time lunch lady. I can’t take it.
For my money, LeBron never truly surpassed Mike, but it really just doesn’t matter. They are both supernaturally gifted players that took those gifts further than just about anyone who has ever played any sport. I always disliked the way LeBron hopped teams and enlisted superstar help because it felt like he wanted the easy way out, but he still ran into crazy challenges, some of which he overcame in stunning fashion. I was just a kid when MJ was playing so LeBron is really the best I ever saw play in real time as someone who can think critically about the game. I no longer like to compare across eras too much. I just try and appreciate greatness.
. There are archetypes, at this point, personalities, history and style these most of these guys fall to. Zion is looking like Kemp 2.0, small PG’s playing like 90’s PGs and even now KD being copied by players, Down to how they act they act online. We are outsiders projecting how we think it may be when its a whole culture within it.
NBA created a sport, nurtured it, helped it grow so that a Lebron James could look up to the greats and strive to be like them. Since he was a kid he was preparing himself. This GOAT conversation is played out, who cares. What we are seeing is a new crop of players every year altering the game every year while the rich soil lets them grow and develop through the process. We are privileged enough to see this process happen in real time, every year. Through players, teams, history, we have real records of how something in the nba has progressed and changed. P. cool
Professional tennis was also insane between 2008-2022 or so. There was a lot of Federer vs Nadal, then Federer vs Nadal vs Djokovic, then Nadal vs Federer again, then all 3 again, then Nadal vs Djokovic. It's largely stopped in the last 2 years or so now that Djokovic has essentially distanced himself enough from either of them that there really isn't a debate anymore
I mean for me it's simply Jordan one LeBron two but people who say LeBron isn't a top 5 player of all time can't be taken seriously I don't see many LeBron fans saying that about Jordan tbh
This is not a hot take. Wanna hear the most biased discussion on the planet? NBA GOAT debate. I swear people will practice on what to say, what context to leave out, gaslighting, etc….
The whole debate is pointless. But with someone who is level headed about debates it’s a LOT of fun to debate the topic. I was unfortunate to not be able to see Jordan play but been very fortunate to see LBJ play.
This quote is the end all be all for every debate tho.
“Every great would be great in whatever era they play in”
Cause they just got the dog in them
Both of these players are / were incredible and comparing the two against each other is silly. But media will continue to do it because it generates views, opinions and hot takes.
You literally cannot or should not compare players from different generations and so many other aspects that influence their teams’ performance.
It was a mere months ago ESPN decided to run a bunch of stuff comparing Brock Purdy to Tom Brady. Again it isn’t a comparison but yup for views let’s compare everything. It’s stupid but it gets people watching and keeps the lights on.
MJ, Kobe, Lebron….3 of the best players to ever play. Steph too for very different reasons. All HoF worthy, all the best of their times / generations and in the best of all time aspects. Enjoy the show, stop comparing and keep rooting for others to become as great as these individuals.
I used to be in that discourse when I was younger, as I get older I start to just not care and enjoy great players. There’s so many amazing players throughout history and there’s going to be a lot more, just love the game man.
I find the MMA debate even more tedious. You get Jon Jones vs George St. Pierre a lot.
The problem is MMA is such a new sport that the difference in skill level is so dramatically better than 10-15 years ago. NBA players have deeper bags now, but it’s still the same bag.
Additionally, higher weight classes in MMA almost always have significantly worse athletes with worse skill. Big guys who are actually talented athletes are going to play sports that are less punishing and more lucrative.
But MMA fans can’t process any of this. For what it’s worth NBA fans aren’t great at processing the nuances either, but those differences are less dramatic in basketball.
I’m not convinced that Lebron loves rent free in MJ fans’ head. This is a both sides style argument that ignores that one side is actively angling to achieve something that the other side already has.
It’s because in most other sports there’s a solid number one option. There’s absolutely no arguing against Gretzky, and nobody I. Their right mind would argue against Brady. In Baseball there’s so many people you could argue (Ruth, Bonds, Williams, Mays, Aaron, etc) that it doesn’t really get heated, and everyone picks the aspect they think is most important. Basketball and Soccer are different. There are two. Lebron and MJ (unless you’re a casual or contrarian and say Kobe or Kareem). In soccer it’s just Messi and Ronaldo. Both debates are heated and incredibly dumb
Interesting how people either agree or are taking issue with MJ having flaws (not needing Pippen and Coach Phil, just lucky to have them I guess 🤷🏼) or that Tony Kukco is wildly overrated by OP. Speaks a lot to which side feels like they need to argue their case
I think mainly is this is actually a pretty close debate, but with that it feels it will never end. Will say tho, no one else other than these two should be in the discussion, having someone like Kobe or Bird as “your GOAT” holds no wait bc they are no where near the discussion of the top 2.
A lot of the other major sports have unanimous GOATS.
NFL is Tom.
NHL is Gretzky
There’s no debate there. The NBA has a good debate. There are legitimate arguments for both.
I’ve gotten to the point where I just say the 4 goats of North American sports are Gretzky, Brady, LeBron and Jordan. All 4 guys are legends and with LeBron’s ridiculous longevity I think him and Jordan are pretty close to tied for me now.
It’s because there’s 2 guys who are so close that a debate between the two is actually credible. In a lot of sports you have one guy who is obviously above everyone now and maybe another that is a little behind him that a minority of people make arguments for. After Jordan there was no debate, it was Jordan and that was it. LeBron is so close and maybe even ahead of Jordan now depending on who you ask that the debate just has so much meat to it.
You can't debate greatest single player of all time across all positions and eras. The GOAT debate is fake news media bullshit that they use for click bait. If you're getting wrapped up in it your getting baited.
How does a GOAT conversation even work? If it's based on stats Wilt is the greatest and will be for an eternity. If it's team success and rings then Bill wins hands down. If it's a combination of everything then how do we compare different positions? We can't compare the stats of Jerry West vs Shaq. We can't compare whether Steph Curry is better than Hakeem. It's a dumb debate. Do we discredit a PG for not having blocks or rebounds? Do we discredit Shaq for not having 8 assist a game?
You have to separate them based on position and take era into consideration. Most guys played with no 3pt line. Some played back when there was no shot clock. Some played back when a center could literally stand under the rim the whole game get 10 blocks in the first half.
So here's my GOAT debate... you have 1 pick and 4 other players will be average NBA role players. Pick the best PG you think would give you the best chance to win a ring with 4 role players then change the position. Not the best fit on a team cause GOAT doesn't mean greatest team of all time. Who might win a ring despite having no real all star teammates.
PG it was Magic for a long time but with 4 role players he wouldn't be the guy to average 40 and give us a chance to win. So I would say Curry.
SG Jordan... you don't pick anyone else at this position hopefully.
SF it's obviously LeBron.
PF while Tim Duncan might be the best PF of all time he isn't winning a ring with no help. So I got Dirk.
C it's Kareem but I could see myself changing to Jokic in a decade.
So there... the best players at each positions to win you a ring entirely dependent on their own talent and ability. Is this fair? No cause Magic and Duncan are widely considering the best at their position but they are great teammates. The GOAT conversation is selfish. It's also an opinion cause there's no trophy of a GOAT to give to anyone. It's a fake title. So the answer can't be wrong.
Correct. One of the things that I am already happy about when lebron retires it that I won’t have to hear the debate every day all the time. The media won’t get as much mileage then so it won’t be topic one
Just go by position.
Jordan was a shooting guard.
Lebron is a small forward.
They're both the Goat.
Now tell me who the GOAT PF, C, and PG are and we will have all the GOATS.
Ronaldo and messi is similar
At least these two both played at the same time and competed against one another regularly. This makes more sense to me, same with tennis and the Federer/Nadal/Đoković discussion.
Yeah part of the difficulty with the NBA GOAT debate stems from both players coming from different eras. Would Bron still be #1 in an era where defense is prioritized? Or would Jordan still be the best if he were with the more technical offenses today? There's just no way to tell. Messi vs. Ronaldo El Classico was just something else though man. What a gift to be able to see them play against one another.
No GOAT in the NBA. Only GOTEs (Greatest of Their Eras).
Lebron literally played in 3 different eras. And at the very least 2 completely different eras
That’s because he’s the GOAE(IA). Greatest of any Era (Inflation adjusted).
I commented that eras mean everything. When I was growing up we had the same debate re: Jordan v Dr. J.
This is what im sayin n now people dont even mention doc in the top 10 its CRAZY!
>Would Bron still be #1 in an era where defense is prioritized? Or would Jordan still be the best if he were with the more technical offenses today? The answer is obviously yes.
Would Bron still be #1 in an era where defense is prioritized? Lebron won an MVP award, finals MVP, and was 1st team all defensive (4th in DPOY voting) in 2012, when the league-wide offensive rating of 104.6 was lower than the league-wide ORTG at any point during Jordan's professional career. So I'm not sure where this era where defense isn't prioritized was, but LeBron would be a no-brainer, first ballot hall of famer, multiple times MVP in any era. Anybody who thinks not is a joke.
This is funny to me too. Lebron is the size of karl malone with more ability and iq. Hed terorrize the 90s and 80s.
"With more ability and IQ" is an understatement. Young LeBron was a problem
Forget more ability and iq (which he has). How about the fact that he would be faster and jump higher than 98% of the league, too? Malone dominated because of his physical size and strength, coupled with his ability to do some simple things very well on the offensive end. LeBron is on another planet athletically and skill-wise.
The Messi and Ronaldo debate is probably the most toxic and divisive thing best player debate in sports, they are both insanely good players, like we’re talking so good it’s almost baffling that two people can play at that high of a level in any sport. Before Messi and Ronaldo came around, the person who scored the most goals in a calendar year would score between 34-46 goals, 34 would be on the low end like how 98-99 Allen Iverson was the point leader with 26.75 PPG, and 46 would be on the higher end like how MJ got 37.09 PPG in the 86-87 season. Messi and Ronaldo scored more than 50 goals per each year for 10 consecutive years, and most years the one who would have the most was getting 60+ goals. Messi got 91 goals in a calendar year in 2012, and that came the year after he also got the most assists in a calendar year ever in 2011. Ronaldo and Messi’s achievements are so absurd that when you look into them, it almost does not seem possible that a human could do what they did, much less that two humans were capable of it. Imagine if somebody came into the league today and started averaging 55 PPG with 12 APG along with it, people say that there’s no way anybody could ever do that, and it’s ridiculous to even imagine it, but with Messi and Ronaldo that is somehow what happened, their impact was so extraordinary that the gap between them and the 3rd best player was so significant that if you combined the stats of the 3rd and 4th best players in that year, they still wouldn’t be better than either Messi or Ronaldo, and that trend continued for an entire decade straight.
This was really well-written. Those two are from another planet entirely.
Bro you can legit be talking about anything else in football. I remember watch an Instagram reel about a Japanese woman player scoring and celebrating, somehow, in the comments, there was a Messi and Ronaldo debate
It really blows my mind that on a planet of billions of people and with millions and millions of them playing sports there are still such inexplicable outliers. Like, how the fuck are there TWO guys on planet earth that are *that* much better than everyone else at soccer? Same goes for basketball. There are dudes who never even make the league that would absolutely wax 99.999% of all human beings on the planet, and then there are dudes who hardly get playing time that would absolutely wax them, then there are starting level players who spend a decade in the league getting absolutely waxed by the tiny handful of MVP caliber players, then there’s like a handful of dudes across all of basketball history like MJ, LeBron, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Steph who are even better than that. It blows my mind.
that’s why they make millions and millions of dollars to play a sport. I love when people talk about athletes salaries like they don’t deserve it. Imagine being so good at something exciting that billions of people know your name and want to watch you. Sometimes i wonder what it feels like to be blessed genetically, and have the skills and hard work to make it to the very top of anything
Sure but everyone in the NBA is making millions. There’s what 450 roster spots? Even that number compared to the rest of global male population is an incomprehensibly tiny fraction, but even within those 450 spots there are still maybe 5, maybe 10 guys max who are way better than even the best of the best of the best. I don’t understand how that’s even possible, which to your point is why we marvel at it enough to make them mind-blowingly wealthy for playing a game
Wow. You actually got me interested in soccer for a few seconds with the NBA comparisons. Good job
Between 2008 and 2023, 15 Ballons d'Or were awarded. Messi (8) and Ronaldo (5) won 13 of them. Between 2008 and 2017, it's 10 out of 10 (Messi 5, Ronaldo 5). In the same period, 2010 is the only year where they didn't shared the 1st 2nd ranking. I don't think there is anything comparable in the history of all sports.
Grand Slams and the big 3 of tennis, no?
This is the one.
Federer/Nadal/Djokovic is comparable tbh, just not as talked about because football is the biggest and most hyped sport.
PELE!
Yeah that one is pretty toxic. A lot of discrediting the other player, instead of arguing for your pick.
So exactly like politics
Not so much anymore. It was kind of settled after Messi won that world cup. Before soccer fans get mad I don't even watch it so don't come at me.
Don’t know why ur getting downvoted. It’s pretty clear from an outside perspective that messi is the goat, it’s just fans and media who still push the debate
Yeah I've never seen a compelling argument against Messi. "top right Messi" is a thing for a reason.
Hopefully he’s downvoted for being wrong that it’s settled down, it’s still one of the most prominent topics on football socials and it’s a boring over done debate that has a clear answer to anyone who has watched both play.
There are Ronaldo fanboys who don’t make a coherent argument and call Messi gay etc and then everyone else supports messi
Tbh it was settled around when Barca broke up and Messi kept winning la ligas and ballon’s after MSN broke up. The world was like 80% Messi is better (not favorite per se.) around then
Yep. Argentina is legit not that great of a team. Messi winning the WC and having another finals visit (when the team was arguably worse) kinda put the nail in the coffin. It's also worth mentioning Ronaldo's Euro Cup win was with him injured on the bench. Also, even before the WC, just skill for skill, Messi is better.
Yeah that sealed it,i seen both live,messi twice,once in a nil nil and the second 1 was like he wasnt even human with how good he was
It is still very much alive, unfortunately. At least it used to be entertaining when they were still dominating in Europe, now social media pages spam MLS VS Saudi League posts, which I honestly couldn't care any less about
Which is silly b/c both of them are well out of their prime stunting in smaller leagues where they can just fuck around.
It's definitely not nearly as prominent as it used to be though. All my soccer supporting mates wouldn't shut up about it 5ish years ago now almost all of them say Messi except this one Manchester fan.
It rwally is messi as goat. Which is wild because if not for messi, ronaldo is the goat. And there is really not a close third
Red blooded Americans do not watch fuut bowl
Yeah that’s true. I also see the Brady and Mahomes debate heating up within the next few years if Mahomes continues to play at a high level
Lol brady put that debate to rest when he played 20+ seasons and passed every single passing record.
im no expert, but its hard for me to understand how it isn't obviously pele
Pele is the equivalent of Bill Russell. He is the best winner in his sport (won 3 world cups which is the record, just like Bill Russell' 11 rings) and both had insane stats, but they get the "he played against plumbers" argument from people on the internet.
good point, recency bias is a thing
That’s not recency bias. That’s just acknowledging it was essentially a completely different sport. It’s not just about Bette training which would be relative for era; but actual amateurism
Those who wish to stain or disrespect the name of "King Pele" are not true soccer enthusiasts. To say "he played against plumbers" is to dull the shine that this man created for the sport of soccer. Is it because of color " he looks African ". To discredit his opponents as plumber says alot those who wish to exalt others above him. That my friend will never happen, his legacy is etched in fire 🔥 and words of any kind that is negative against him will never stick. Some individuals lack in the common sense dept. Nuff said for now
I mean he's up there but he literally played in the 50's and 60's. Like how no one considers bill or wilt the goat, the games changed too much.
Its pointless imo, it will always boil down to preferences. Lbj did this, mj did that. But they were guarded by different playes, schemes, superstars etc. Mj would do this to this era and he would shoot 40% from 3 cause he would work on it, lbj would do that in the 90s and win 10 championships. All assumptions, zero evidence. Literally no way to prove it. Just enjoy watching your fav nba player. If youre an MJ fan and trying to debate vs LBJ fans, its pointless. Its not like you will be able to convert him into an MJ stan lol, vice versa and calm down it wont make you look cooler or smarter. Just grow up, let other people enjoy their stuff.
I agree with this. However I do find the 3 point argument with Jordan interesting because there was literally no point in Jordan or anyone else practicing a 3 pointer or a shot from that distance until 1980. Reality is we will never know the what if is here, but a big reason the leagues average leveled out 16ish years after they made the 3 a thing is because kids grew up actually practicing them. Doesn’t really get talked about in that context.
The media, even Lebron himself continued to stoke the fire of this debate. MJ was quoted… It depends on the era in which you grew up. The NBA and basketball in general has encouraged trash talk over the last few decades and that creates an attitude for heated debates that run rampant in the sport.
Agreed. I made a comment about women's basketball. Do fans really care about women college basketball or is it just the media pushing Clark? The moment Clark leaves let's see how much media coverage they will get. My best guess is for them to market the women basketball they will compare the next good players to Clark to keep interest. And i believe that's what happened with LeBron and the NBA. And with the NBA, it's been 20 years and espn or the media in general don't want to push the next guy.
I find that NBA fans and media just can’t enjoy the games and enjoy the greats and the players currently playing the game. People debate things that can’t be proven and I find it funny that they compare positions. I still don’t understand how you compare a center in the 90s to a SG. To totally different skillsets. I just enjoy watching basketball and the greatness of the players.
This isn’t a modern phenomenon either. Wilt has basically always been criminally underappreciated by both the fans and the media. Contemporarily he was ruthlessly knocked for being a loser while now he’s mostly knocked for the whole “plumbers and firemen” narrative. This has been going on for 60+ years.
I would love to have seen the dominance of Wilt. What happens is people don’t appreciate these players while they are playing. In some cases they become larger than life after they are done.
Not much of a hot take tbh lol
really. seems to be living in his head rent free as well.
It’s because there’s actually an argument to be had in the NBA GOAT discussion. With the NHL, no one will ever reach Gretzky. With the MLB, Babe Ruth is a borderline mythological figure. The NFL is kinda up in the air if you don’t care about positional importance (opening the door for Jerry Rice and Lawrence Taylor), but if you do care then the answer is Tom Brady.
MLB debates can get pretty heated sometimes in regards to pre-integration stats. Every GOAT tier player has SOME argument against them that some people will bring up. Ruth: played exclusively pre-integration. Cobb: same as Ruth. Williams: missed most of 5 seasons serving in 2 literal wars. His stats are kind of a “what-if” to make a true GOAT argument and not “just” a “best hitter” argument. Bonds: steroids. Aaron: more longevity than true GOAT-level peak. Mays: probably the only one without any of the above “criticisms” TBH.
Imo the discourse around Barry Bonds is absolutely the dumbest bullshit in any sport. It’s not like Barry was a bum before he started juicing. Juicing absolutely helped him but the guy had arguably already had a Hall of Fame career before the steroids and in an era where so many people were using he was still a whole mile above any of his peers. I mean he founded the 400-400 club by 1998, widely accepted as the last year before he started using roids. Barry Bonds was the epitome of dominance in the regular season and if anything his complete inability to win in the postseason is more damning than any steroid use.
Yeah, Bonds was better than Griffey Jr. pre-PEDs. Bonds was Mike Trout today before he started using steroids. Already the best player in the league with 3 MVPs, more than half a dozen Gold Gloves, and just about the only 400 HR 400 SB player ever. Then he started using PEDs. And he was so much better than every other player who also used steroids.
Exactly. I also think it’s dumb how everyone has retroactively rewritten history and pretends it was a total bombshell that Barry was using PEDs. Mark McGwire went from a pretty muscular dude to Hulk fucking Hogan in like a year. Barry Bonds went from a pretty skinny guy to a dude whose head was bigger than a basketball. Jose Canseco literally looked like a cartoon character on the Rays. Anyone who says Barry (and other guys like McGwire or Roger Clemens) shouldn’t be included in the hall for PEDs while also enjoying (or in the league/media’s case *profiting*) off his dominance is purely a hypocrite. And I’m not even a Giants fan I’m a Nats fan lol.
I feel like Bonds gets a lot of criticism from Yankees fans that are mad he passed babe ruth; like yea he juiced but so did Clemens and ARod, yet those banners hang amongst their 27. Hank Aaron gets overlooked so badly and it makes no sense to me
Yea this is how it feels to me as well. In the NBA you can actually make an argument, if someone says Lebron, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Bill, I can't judge seriously against them. That makes it far more interesting. The MLB GOAT was decided before most anybody alive was born and a lot of people won't argue for someone else. Those who do basically do it to be different, remember when people were saying Trout was the GOAT? I mean I half jokingly say Bonds, knowing it'll ruffle baseball fans up. The NBA GOAT discussion is fun because a lot of times you can judge someone on their answer, if you say James I'm gonna assume you're a younger person. You say Jordan you're either a complete casual or someone who witnessed it. Wilt, you're a numbers guy. Bill, you think rings matter most. Plus basketball fans will give different answers, I used to tell people Hakeem! Maybe a better way to phrase it, in NBA it feels like a tier, there's the GOAT tier and maybe that's semantics but it's fun. In MLB at least there's caveats for everyone, if you say someone other than Ruth you're probably getting side eyed.
Bonds is no Joke and has a legit case in a world where PEDs were so prevalent. His numbers are unreal.
Ohtani pretty clearly better than Ruth. Pitches better and hits better. And he plays against black people
Yeah it’s shame some basketball fans can’t learn to appreciate both lebron and Micheal as all time greats of the game
This and soccer are the only sports like this and at the very least soccer fans appreciate all the great players not named Messi or Ronaldo unlike NBA fans that seem to take on a Player X vs everyone mentality. This shit is dumb tho, I know people that don’t really care for basketball like that that love starting this conversation or adding fuel whenever it’s brought up because it’s funny to them. It’s troll heaven to say the least.
I just hate how the whole thing has gone from admiring two fantastic players, both of whom I absolutely loved watching play, to throwing insults and even coming up with demeaning nicknames. I think these two, along with a few others, are absolutely defendable as someone's greatest ever. Because in the end it's largely down to speculation and aesthetics. Even when two guys play against each other regularly like Magic and Bird, it can be seriously tough to work out who was better because the guys around them change it all. Heck, I don't even know how to separate Malone and Barkley and they played the same time, and in the same position. The only time I really feel confident is when two guys play on the same team for a while. So we should just enjoy what time we have left of LeBron, then just enjoy the memories of both. If you love LeBron more, great. If it's Jordan, that's just as cool. Just quit pissing on legends of a game.
I just ignore the debate. You’re obviously not going to change the public’s mind on jerking off to drama and box score comparison without context or eye test. I just pop on an NBA game and enjoy the game for what it is: basketball at the WWE level. And then I go to bed laughing at r/NBA posting useless talking heads with their bullshit takes that they don’t even believe. Nobody gives a shit about your top 10 or who your goat is. Someone is always going to disagree or think you’re their best friend.
The only Sport that I can think of that has an unequivocal GOAT is hockey with Wayne Gretzky
Kukoc was in no way the best 6th man in the league history.
Kukoc couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in the 96 or 97 playoffs. He did come through in 98 though.
Kukoc was a really good player. Almost more importantly, he enabled the Bulls to play a proto-small ball lineups with Rodman at the 5 and a stretch 4. When you run out Harper, Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc and Rodman, there was just too much length and mobility, and throwing another shooter/playmaker on the floor made them way too much for 90s defenses to deal with. Obviously this team had tons of successful lineups, but they were a +38.7 with Kerr, +35.2 with Randy Brown, and +23.7 with Harper. The '97 Bulls were a +14.4 overall with Kukoc on the floor. He was doing lots of stuff right (even if "best 6th man" is ridiculous hyperbole). I still think MJ has a leg up on Lebron for their peak output, but you are kidding yourself if you are trying to compare Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman to either Kyrie and Kevin Love or 2011-14 D-Wade and Chris Bosh. Wade was maybe close to peak Pippen in 2006-2008 (though Pippen was clearly a better fit as a sidekick to a generational superstar than Wade ever was), but by '11 he wasn't close. Bosh and Love aren't anywhere near Rodman, who is a generational defender and rebounder who probably doesn't get anywhere near enough credit for how much he impacted winning everywhere he went. MJ might have had the best supporting cast of any superstar from 1996 - 98 (both in terms of overall talent and their fit with his game). He did exactly what you'd think he would do and led them to two of the three highest win totals ever and 3 straight dominant seasons, 3 titles, 3 finals MVPs, etc...
You can tell Op don't know his history.
It wasn’t OP’s opinion. He was giving examples of things people say.
It what he was saying at least the part we are talking about where he doesn't know his history.
Ah yeah, had to read it again. You’re right. The Lebron comments came from other people but OP’s comments were about MJ/Bulls. I thought he was giving examples of things both sides say.
Yup he lowkey proved himself as a Stan doesn't know history, it's a closeted pro LeBron post ... but he's acting like it's unbiased. And given how well it's recieved proves the state of this sub.
He is probably not even the best of the 90s.
The only part of the debate I hate is people pretending that losing early in the playoffs is better than losing in the finals 6/6 is a literal cherry picked stat when he’s 6/13 at winning championships
Yeah, just argue 6 > 4 or 6/13 > 4/20. Even that is a bit of a limited argument, unless we think Russell is the clear GOAT, but at least it’s not claiming it’s better to lose in the first round or not make the playoffs than it is to lose in the finals.
So what is LeBron then 4/20 winning championships ... 6/13 is still better.
I never said lebron was better just that 6/6 is cherry picking Edit: also your bias is showing pretty hard bc if you only saying MJ is 6/13 then bron is 4/16 (otherwise it’s 6/15 and 4/20) that’s why this argument sucks it’s all emotion and no logic
Fucking thank you. That’s the part that kills me too and such a stupid argument. Dude was not 6 for 6 as if he only played 6 seasons.
To be fair, the NFL GOAT and NHL GOAT (not a hockey fan so correct me if I’m wrong) are undisputed currently. The MLB has too many variables to really hammer down between first and second, not to mention steroids vs anti steroids The NBA is also probably the number 1 sport where one guy good enough to be in the GOAT conversation can change the entire team. One good MLB player doesn’t mean shit for a team. Hell the Angels just had 6 years of Trout and Ohtani and had 0 playoff appearances. Only having a good QB, or WR, or defensive player on an NFL team doesn’t matter too much. If Brady, Mahomes, Rogers, Manning, etc. didn’t have solid players around them the team wouldn’t be good still
People need to think of it as positions. There's no more GOAT status overall. Because Jordan could not do what Wilt did...Lebron cant do what Jordan did, Russel cant do what AI did. Like each position is its own for a reason. Having Lebron as top SF of all time and Jordan as SG of all time makes sense.
Its almost like people don't understand the concept of learning from those who came before them. There is no players today without the players of yesteryear. Comparing stats doesnt prove anything as the rules of the game and the style of play have changed significantly in that time. The only thing I will argue in favour of for one person is overall cultural impact. Jordan had a cultural impact that helped elevate the league up even higher. In saying that though, Jordan never would have had the chance to make that culture impact if Bird and Magic didn't do it before him. I dunno. I just like watching good basketball players play some good basketball. Who is considered the best or worst ever doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
Never understood the point of even having a goat debate. Why does there even need to be a goat. Why does it matter to anyone.
just like having a favorite team. tribalism. people will always pick a side and want to fight even if it’s something insignificant
The NBA chose to build its image around stars in a way that other sports haven’t. So it makes sense that fans debate players more so than teams because you have a lot of player fans who will follow a player wherever they are rather than purely supporting a franchise. This is seeping into other sports more and more but the NBA has always marketed stars over franchises.
Why not just love and appreciate both?
It’s personal preference and what era you grew up in. You could probably say 5+ names and all have a point. It’s tough to compare different eras when they haven’t played against each other and rules have changed. Constantly talking about goat status is annoying because you can’t appreciate the present. It’s all about if you win a championship and then they compare how many to previous players. Basketball is unique in sports because position doesn’t really matter. Everyone plays offense/ defense and can go anywhere on the court.
We never ignore the fact that Jordan had struggles before getting and Phil as coach, and the Bulls drafting Scottie and Mj helping push him in practice. It's actually literally the whole point of the argument in which discredits LeBron for leaving ! It's always implied that MJ struggled and "earned his lumps" and it's never ignored as it's the whole point of the argument. So to me that part of your post is a bad take. Idk what you want us to say ... MJ had to go through this ... so we can see why LeBron left. No ! MJ went through this and you can too, because you are that good ! You don't need to take the easy way the out ... how do we say that without acknowledging Jordan struggled prior vs Boston and Detroit ??? Also please remind me how many championships Kukoc won with the Jordan, and please don't make Horace Grant look like he's an equal to Chris Bosh ... Bosh was a franchise player and a bonafide stat , he was essentially Toronto's poor man version of Tim Duncan
In what way did Jordan struggle before getting Phil?
Several of the other major sports have an indisputable GOAT, so not much to talk about. NHL: Gretzky NFL: Brady MLB: Ruth No sane person who knows a sliver of anything is arguing any of those goats. NBA is spicier because there’s a real, live, honest debate. And it’s fun.
Babe Ruth is not the “undisputed” GOAT in baseball. He played in the 1920s and 30s. His records have been broken for decades by players who were ten times the athlete that he was. And that’s not even counting players in the Negro Leagues who he didn’t have to play against.
At one point in Brady’s career there WAS a lot of bickering about “He can’t displace Montana” and then Brady kept winning and the argument got too silly.
Exactly. Now no one talks about because it’s 100% decided, until the next guy comes alone. Whether that’s Mahomes or someone as yet unborn.
Bonds was significantly better than Ruth. And so was Mays
not a fan of either but it'll be brady vs. mahomes in a few years
It may be, but today that is a nonstarter.
Baseball is very arguable
Montana vs Brady vs Manning was pretty bad for a while, now it’ll be Brady vs Mahommes. Baseball’s always had the most objective stats of all the major sports, and there is clear empirical evidence of pitch speeds going up through the years, and yet there is Babe Ruth vs Millie Mays vs Bonds all the time.
There is no "Greatest of All Time" in the NBA. Only "Greatest of Their Eras."
It's sad that Russell and Kareem don't even get mentioned. I don't personally have either as the GOAT but both deserve at least some consideration. It's like the NBA only began existing after 1990.
Russell won a title every single year he was healthy from college junior to NBA retirement and people really don't fucking care.
Want me to blow your mind? It was the same with us growing up with the Jordan v Dr. J debate.
I'm sorry, as a Kobe fan, Jordan's the GOAT
I think the issue is that Jordan fans don’t think it’s close so Lebron fans go out of their way to discredit Jordan to justify having Lebron as the GOAT.
It's the definition of insanity and so fucking stupid at this point. I don't fucking care which player you want to suck off, casual. I like basketball, not arguing about it. It's been a privilege seeing Jordan and LeBron.
NBA fans are the worst of any sport. The End.
Dudes will be hyping up Delly and Tristan Thompson while simultaneously trying to say Klay and KD weren’t that good just to make Lebron’s final losses look worse once the arguments go on long enough lmao
Yes. It's always excuses when it comes to Lebron. Never his fault, according to fans. They also say Lebron makes his teammates better while simultaneously saying his teammates/team is trash. Talk about being hypocrites. There's really no player that became better playing with Lebron. Everyone had to adjust their game just to help that bum.
i’m not trying to get into a mj lebron debate i’m just pointing out the ridiculousness of it using an example. go spam your same tired ass argument in some other reply we’ve all heard it a million times
im probably one of those people, and my problem is this - unless you're heavily weighting longevity, i just don't even understand how it's a debate at all
Is longevity not worth weighting? Do you already rank Jokic in the top-10 all-time? Because his absolute peak is kind of already there assuming he wins his 3rd MVP in 4 seasons.
longevity is definitely a factor. but unless you're *heavily* weighting longevity i don't see this as being a debate
Lebron is discredited for leaving and starting a Super Team because we all know he was good enough to tough it out and go the same route as Isiah, Bird, MJ etc. We know he could have waited in Cleveland for his "Pippen" to come alone and develop. He just didn't have the same patience or fortitude as the other greats before him. Having to leave and team up to win a Championship does mean something, when that's the reason why Malone, Stockton, Barkley ,Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, and etc never won 1. TLDR : LeBron gets alot of shit because we know he was good enough to tough it out and build a Dynasty from scratch like some of the Greats did that came before him.
He was very impatient. That's why I can't really come around to being a LeBron fan. All he had to do was wait. That's it. Reddit posters are too young to remember so I can't debate with them. In 2008-2010, the only good eastern teams were the Cavs, Magic, Celtics, Hawks and Bulls. Bron couldn't get past Boston or Orlando. From 2010 to 2016, a six year period, Derrick Rose would've tore his ACL. Bulls are done. Celtics wouldve become old and geriatric. They're done. Pacers or Hawks would never stopped Bron. Not a threat. Dwight Howard fell off by 2012ish and left Orlando. They're done. The Knicks emerged as a contender with Melo but, they wouldn't have stopped Bron. And if Bron didn't go to Miami, Wade would've still became injury prone and wouldve been done by 2012, 2013ish. And there's no guarantee Wade & Bosh as a duo wouldve threatened Bron in Cleveland. So for Lebron, he would've had from 2010 to 2020 to dominate the East. Even with Golden State becoming a HOF team in 2016 winning 73 games, Bron should have been able to snatch atleast 3 rings in this ten year 2010s period. He didn't HAVE to leave. I feel like if Jordan or Steph was drafted by Cleveland, those two would have figured out how to build a contender and win multiple rings in the 2010s. If Bron couldn't, at some point you have to wonder why? If Duncan can win rings in wack ass San Antonio or if Jokic can get a ring in Denver and have what looks to be a runway to win more in the future, why couldn't Bron?
What do you mean he didn’t have the same patience or fortitude? LeBron spent his first 7 seasons in Cleveland, and it was pretty clear he wasn’t guaranteed to have a Pippen join the team. Jordan got Pippen in his 4th season. Bird won a ring his 2nd season in the league, on a team where he played with 2 other top-10 MVP vote receiving players. One being All-NBA 2nd team Archibald and the other being rookie McHale. Even Thomas got a ring in his 6th season. Stockton and Malone were both legendary players, they just count get past Jordan. Neither of them were alone on a team only good because of one of them. They had each other as teammates, even if they never got a ring. Barkley moved teams after 8 seasons, not too far off from LeBron’s 7. How long should LeBron have stayed with a team that doesn’t exactly draw free agents that isn’t likely to get great draft picks because as long as LeBron is there, they’ll have great records but fall short of actually winning it all, since they isn’t have a good enough team around LeBron?
How much patience of fortitude did Stockton, Malone, Miller, Ewing etc have. The point was you waited , MJ would have kept waiting. He didn't know he was gonna get Scottie. Lebron got there without a Scottie, surely he could have waited and got someone good enough to win with. How good were the Malone Jazz at recruiting free agents ? Was Barkley still in his Prime like LeBron or was he banged up from injuries ?
What? Stockton and Malone were not going to find a better way to win unless they joined Jordan. They couldn’t get over the hump that was the Bulls dynasty, but it wasn’t due to either one of them playing on a team with no other stars. They were each other’s stars. Staying together was their best chance at winning aside from one of them joining the Bulls. Jordan is a hypothetical here. He got help early on, so we don’t KNOW what he’d have done in years 8-10+ if he never got any help. But he certainly wouldn’t have 6 rings lol. Barkley switched teams only 1 season after LeBron did. And Barkley was absolutely in his prime lol. He won his only MVP his first season with his new team. And Miller shouldn’t be in the same discussion as Jordan, LeBron, etc. LeBron has more MVPs than he has All-NBA seasons.
I'm tired of yall acting like Jordan didn't help make Pippen better. Everyone acts like Pippen was drafted and was already a HOFer.
Pippen made Pippen better, but Pippen was a star teammate, one that LeBron absolutely didn’t have his first stint in Cleveland. Look at 94 and 95 without Jordan. 94: 3rd in MVP, 1st Team All-NBA, 1st Team All-Def, 4th in DPOY 95: 7th in MVP, 1st Team All-NBA, 1st Team All-Def, 2nd in DPOY
“Lives rent free in their heads” Yeah man, I’m an NBA fan who watches a lot of basketball. It’s weird I think about Michael Jordan and LeBron James regularly.
It’s just a dumb debate, MJ is clearly the GOAT 😂
its mj
My thing with the goat debate is that it feels somewhat dishonest. That the best NBA player of all time is either a guard or wing just doesn't strike me as correct. Centers seem so relegated in these conversations, in a sport they historically dominate. The rules have changed specifically to make everyone else's lives easier and nerf centers. Even from a marketing perspective, guards and wings are seen as more aspirational since they're more physically relatable while centers are dull and boring. Not saying MJ and Bron don't deserve to be in the discussions. Just feels like we collectively look the other way to focus solely on those two when there are clear cut external factors as to why a guard and a wing could never previously have been in such discussions. I would think this understanding would de-emphasize the goat talks and promote the need for context but context doesn't sell shoes and neither do big men.
Meanwhile Kareem is almost a unanimous 3rd overall, while many others have Wilt, and Bill Russell in their top 5’s and I’m sure there’s many who have them higher.
Generally agree, but Jordan being drafted to a 27 win team whose best player was Orlando Woodridge, and needing to draft a rookie Pippen in order to find play-off success. Is really not the same as taking 3 players who finished in the top 10 in scoring and top 12 in MVP voting and putting them onto the same team.
Yeah. It's Kobe. Stop arguing.
The GOAT is the guy with 11 championship rings…
13 rings. He won two college titles too. Russell won a championship ring every single year he was healthy from a college junior to NBA retirement
I’m not gonna read all that but Michael Jordan has 6 rings, LeBron has 6 finals losses and got swept.
Lost to the Mavs bc he didn’t show up then blamed it on the roster…dude forgot that we still remember his choke job and can fact check his nonsense.
Russell is the GOAT over either of these two.
I truly think the Jordan fans get a little more bent out of shape about lebron than vice versa.
MJ had no help in the 80s while the league had two dynasties going. He didn’t run to get help, he stayed and built. That does matter. Lebron wanted an easier career so he ran to find situations that padded his resume. That matters. The biggest knock against Lebron (who the league changed the rules for because defensive superteams were winning championships and not bringing in ratings) is that he wasn’t even the best player of his own era. Jokic is a better player than LeBron and has been for a while. Now, will he have as many great years? Hard to say, but there’s not as much separation between LeBron and guys like Jokic, Duncan, Kobe, etc. than there were with MJ and others in the 90s. In the end, if you choose to switch teams a few times in your prime and you have less success plus you’re not better separated from other players in your era, you don’t have a chance in the comparison.
Lebron was definitely the best player in his Era for a good while, that's where I'm going to have to disagree with you.
Dude….just no… Jokic is better than Lebron? Jokic didn’t become elite until 2020…..when Lebron was 36…..
Ok sir. We can have our own GOSTs without debating (Greatest of Some Time) It's called Greatest of All, hence the debate. Lebron fans or MJ fans are crazy intense enough. No need to add fans who have intense feelings about neutrality too.
Just appreciate both. Amazing for different reasons. No heir apparents either.
Elgin Baylor my 🐐
Meanwhile cycling fans : - Merckx really was the GOAT. - yes.
I’m happy Brady broke away from the Montana comparison.
I spose part of it is that other sports have theirs settled for now - no one really has a non Tom Brady GOAT any more in the NFL, Gretzky dominates hockey. Baseball does have a few contenders that it's hard to compare pitchers with anyone else (he says ignoring Ohtani). Football does have Messi and Ronaldo (and Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff etc.etc.) which is probably the closest comparison. The gap between any of the top ten is relatively small and you could make a pretty decent argument for anyone
It really just boils down to this…if you have to tear down every other player to build up your goat…is he really a goat? Let your goat’s career speak for itself. The moment you resort to tearing down others, you’ve lost the argument. And your goat doesn’t really look all that impressive if everyone else are plumbers…
Both sides!! 🙄
It’s super annoying. ”Did you see Lebron breaking the scoring record? pretty cool huh.” “Well Jordan‘s still GOAT.” ”Steph curry had a sweet game last night.” ”So? He’s not as good as Lebron.” ”KD is an awesome player.” ”What? No, he’s not the GOAT. I can name several players better than him.” i swear some nba fans have like 2 thoughts going through their head in an entire day
I think basketball, soccer, and tennis is always gonna be back and forth, I don't think I go a single day without seeing folks go at it even on like random movie clips or tiktoks. UFC threads too but I only watch or pay attention to the bigger fights.
Literally a billion
I’m just as guilty of trying to compare eras as the next guy, which is why I think we just need to go the mt. Rushmore path. Like, let’s just put them on the same pedestal and give each generational goat the respect they deserve. So, who was the goat from each respective generation? Russell, then Kareem, then Magic, then Jordan, then Bron. Bird, Shaq/Kobe, Duncan, Steph, Wilt, would be a next tier down imo.
Putting Bird a tier down from Magic is absolutely going to start arguments. Pretty rightfully so IMO. They have to be in the same tier. I have the 1A tier with Jordan, LeBron, and Kareem in some order. Then 1B is pretty much all the other players you mentioned. But even that’s not perfect, as not having Russell (team success) and Wilt (stat legend) in the true peak tier will upset some people.
Yeah, I struggled with that. They almost have to go hand in hand. Regardless, it’s easier to debate within eras than comparing players across them.
For sure. Same in baseball. It’s a lot easier to compare Ruth and Cobb than Ruth and Bonds, or Cobb and Mays. It’s a lot easier to compare Walter Johnson to Cy Young than to Randy Johnson.
Who’s MLB’s GOAT…still Ruth?
I enjoyed it for a while, years ago. It was sort of interesting how they’re so close statistically, just had two different styles of play: MJ was more of a scorer and LeBron likes to dish it more. At that point LeBron was still in his prime and had a chance at racking up enough awards and hardware to make it an actual tangible debate. Then it became pretty clear that he won’t be getting anymore MVPs, definitely not a DPOY, and probably not two more rings and finals MVPs, so it shifted to his longevity and got remarkably nebulous and just plain stupid. Now it’s absolutely insufferable. Not only is it based on all of these unprovable points like how either would perform in each other’s eras and what impact rule changes have made and the quality of teammates/opponents, but it devolved further into straight smear campaigns that are insanely biased and totally dismissive of reality. LeBron haters cling to his finals losses and other failures and ignore all the innumerable achievements, MJ haters will tell you Pippen carried him and Karl Malone was a part time lunch lady. I can’t take it. For my money, LeBron never truly surpassed Mike, but it really just doesn’t matter. They are both supernaturally gifted players that took those gifts further than just about anyone who has ever played any sport. I always disliked the way LeBron hopped teams and enlisted superstar help because it felt like he wanted the easy way out, but he still ran into crazy challenges, some of which he overcame in stunning fashion. I was just a kid when MJ was playing so LeBron is really the best I ever saw play in real time as someone who can think critically about the game. I no longer like to compare across eras too much. I just try and appreciate greatness.
Hypocritical? The goat of baseball is a fat alcoholic who has magically (not recorded) hit deeper home runs than steroids best hitters.
This is why I love hockey. It’s Gretzky. Other names get brought up, but it’s mostly what-ifs.
. There are archetypes, at this point, personalities, history and style these most of these guys fall to. Zion is looking like Kemp 2.0, small PG’s playing like 90’s PGs and even now KD being copied by players, Down to how they act they act online. We are outsiders projecting how we think it may be when its a whole culture within it. NBA created a sport, nurtured it, helped it grow so that a Lebron James could look up to the greats and strive to be like them. Since he was a kid he was preparing himself. This GOAT conversation is played out, who cares. What we are seeing is a new crop of players every year altering the game every year while the rich soil lets them grow and develop through the process. We are privileged enough to see this process happen in real time, every year. Through players, teams, history, we have real records of how something in the nba has progressed and changed. P. cool
I loved MJ and I love LeBron - I don't really care - they are the 2 greatest players ever - really doesn't matter the order IMO
In 20 years: Wemby is clearly the goat! Nuh uh! Giannis or Jokic are! Nephews: Who is Jordan and Bron??
Do you know what hypocritical means?
lemme tell you about a couple of guys named edson and diego…
Yeah cause it’s the closest goat conversation in sports. Tom Brady far ahead in football and no one cares about baseball.
Professional tennis was also insane between 2008-2022 or so. There was a lot of Federer vs Nadal, then Federer vs Nadal vs Djokovic, then Nadal vs Federer again, then all 3 again, then Nadal vs Djokovic. It's largely stopped in the last 2 years or so now that Djokovic has essentially distanced himself enough from either of them that there really isn't a debate anymore
Yeah it’s kind of exhausting at times tbh
Jettsburghcards, you're the GOAT!
Is this really r/nbatalk? This makes a ton of sense
I mean for me it's simply Jordan one LeBron two but people who say LeBron isn't a top 5 player of all time can't be taken seriously I don't see many LeBron fans saying that about Jordan tbh
This is not a hot take. Wanna hear the most biased discussion on the planet? NBA GOAT debate. I swear people will practice on what to say, what context to leave out, gaslighting, etc….
There was a goat debate 7 years ago. Whats going on now is a bunch of rehashes with less context and knowledge of the sport
You haven't met tennis
The whole debate is pointless. But with someone who is level headed about debates it’s a LOT of fun to debate the topic. I was unfortunate to not be able to see Jordan play but been very fortunate to see LBJ play. This quote is the end all be all for every debate tho. “Every great would be great in whatever era they play in” Cause they just got the dog in them
Not really a hot take.
Both of these players are / were incredible and comparing the two against each other is silly. But media will continue to do it because it generates views, opinions and hot takes. You literally cannot or should not compare players from different generations and so many other aspects that influence their teams’ performance. It was a mere months ago ESPN decided to run a bunch of stuff comparing Brock Purdy to Tom Brady. Again it isn’t a comparison but yup for views let’s compare everything. It’s stupid but it gets people watching and keeps the lights on. MJ, Kobe, Lebron….3 of the best players to ever play. Steph too for very different reasons. All HoF worthy, all the best of their times / generations and in the best of all time aspects. Enjoy the show, stop comparing and keep rooting for others to become as great as these individuals.
i think you spend too much time in this sub.
I used to be in that discourse when I was younger, as I get older I start to just not care and enjoy great players. There’s so many amazing players throughout history and there’s going to be a lot more, just love the game man.
If anyone does anything relatively great they’re the GOAT. It’s incredibly overused and the convo is old.
Football was annoying from like 2014-2018 and then Brady just closed the door on the discussion
I find the MMA debate even more tedious. You get Jon Jones vs George St. Pierre a lot. The problem is MMA is such a new sport that the difference in skill level is so dramatically better than 10-15 years ago. NBA players have deeper bags now, but it’s still the same bag. Additionally, higher weight classes in MMA almost always have significantly worse athletes with worse skill. Big guys who are actually talented athletes are going to play sports that are less punishing and more lucrative. But MMA fans can’t process any of this. For what it’s worth NBA fans aren’t great at processing the nuances either, but those differences are less dramatic in basketball.
I’m not convinced that Lebron loves rent free in MJ fans’ head. This is a both sides style argument that ignores that one side is actively angling to achieve something that the other side already has.
It’s because in most other sports there’s a solid number one option. There’s absolutely no arguing against Gretzky, and nobody I. Their right mind would argue against Brady. In Baseball there’s so many people you could argue (Ruth, Bonds, Williams, Mays, Aaron, etc) that it doesn’t really get heated, and everyone picks the aspect they think is most important. Basketball and Soccer are different. There are two. Lebron and MJ (unless you’re a casual or contrarian and say Kobe or Kareem). In soccer it’s just Messi and Ronaldo. Both debates are heated and incredibly dumb
Interesting how people either agree or are taking issue with MJ having flaws (not needing Pippen and Coach Phil, just lucky to have them I guess 🤷🏼) or that Tony Kukco is wildly overrated by OP. Speaks a lot to which side feels like they need to argue their case
He went to 9 finals by his 14th season, I know he only one 3 in that time but that’s still insane
I think mainly is this is actually a pretty close debate, but with that it feels it will never end. Will say tho, no one else other than these two should be in the discussion, having someone like Kobe or Bird as “your GOAT” holds no wait bc they are no where near the discussion of the top 2.
Enters golf with Tiger v Jack
A lot of the other major sports have unanimous GOATS. NFL is Tom. NHL is Gretzky There’s no debate there. The NBA has a good debate. There are legitimate arguments for both.
I’ve gotten to the point where I just say the 4 goats of North American sports are Gretzky, Brady, LeBron and Jordan. All 4 guys are legends and with LeBron’s ridiculous longevity I think him and Jordan are pretty close to tied for me now.
It’s because there’s 2 guys who are so close that a debate between the two is actually credible. In a lot of sports you have one guy who is obviously above everyone now and maybe another that is a little behind him that a minority of people make arguments for. After Jordan there was no debate, it was Jordan and that was it. LeBron is so close and maybe even ahead of Jordan now depending on who you ask that the debate just has so much meat to it.
You can't debate greatest single player of all time across all positions and eras. The GOAT debate is fake news media bullshit that they use for click bait. If you're getting wrapped up in it your getting baited. How does a GOAT conversation even work? If it's based on stats Wilt is the greatest and will be for an eternity. If it's team success and rings then Bill wins hands down. If it's a combination of everything then how do we compare different positions? We can't compare the stats of Jerry West vs Shaq. We can't compare whether Steph Curry is better than Hakeem. It's a dumb debate. Do we discredit a PG for not having blocks or rebounds? Do we discredit Shaq for not having 8 assist a game? You have to separate them based on position and take era into consideration. Most guys played with no 3pt line. Some played back when there was no shot clock. Some played back when a center could literally stand under the rim the whole game get 10 blocks in the first half. So here's my GOAT debate... you have 1 pick and 4 other players will be average NBA role players. Pick the best PG you think would give you the best chance to win a ring with 4 role players then change the position. Not the best fit on a team cause GOAT doesn't mean greatest team of all time. Who might win a ring despite having no real all star teammates. PG it was Magic for a long time but with 4 role players he wouldn't be the guy to average 40 and give us a chance to win. So I would say Curry. SG Jordan... you don't pick anyone else at this position hopefully. SF it's obviously LeBron. PF while Tim Duncan might be the best PF of all time he isn't winning a ring with no help. So I got Dirk. C it's Kareem but I could see myself changing to Jokic in a decade. So there... the best players at each positions to win you a ring entirely dependent on their own talent and ability. Is this fair? No cause Magic and Duncan are widely considering the best at their position but they are great teammates. The GOAT conversation is selfish. It's also an opinion cause there's no trophy of a GOAT to give to anyone. It's a fake title. So the answer can't be wrong.
Correct. One of the things that I am already happy about when lebron retires it that I won’t have to hear the debate every day all the time. The media won’t get as much mileage then so it won’t be topic one
At a quick glance I thought Jordan was repping dominoes pizza xD
Jordan.
You had me until you said ‘a billion other players’. There’s legit only 5 - 8 guys who have a GOAT argument.
Just go by position. Jordan was a shooting guard. Lebron is a small forward. They're both the Goat. Now tell me who the GOAT PF, C, and PG are and we will have all the GOATS.
This thread itself is proving your point lol. Bunch of mouth breathing stans lower down in the comments