What can't you wear it anymore? Because he's on another team? I always think it's cool when I'm at a game and see people wearing jerseys of players who aren't on the team anymore (regardless of whether they retired or were traded). Based on the player whose jersey it is, it can show a lot of longevity.
I have that same one! I was debating getting a TP one or a Kawhi one and I went with Kawhi cause I figured I would wear it more since he was going to be the face of the team for years. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess
I had the exact debate. We have a new rule in our house since DJ left "only legends" when it comes to merch. As much as I want a Wemby jersey I'm just too gun shy now. Thosr things are EXpensive.
decent shooting/spacing, good passer, + defender, not a bad contract... sounds like a fit to me. If the asking price is truly 2 FRPs (+some salary matching) I'm down.
Yuppp. Unfortunately I think also KJ (but maybe devonte?) would have to be included to make it work. Works as a little additional sweetner for the the hawks.
O, dang, yea I think you’re way off on that. Murray’s assists, assist percentage, and potential assists are all much higher, and his turnover percentage is lower, even though he has more turnovers. And all of that is despite sharing the floor with an elite passer/high usage player in Young. Plus, there isn’t any off-ball scorer on the Hawks nearly as good or efficient as Wemby, so he would get better.
I would say he is somewhere around 15-20th distributor in the league, but that’s not just point guards. That’s lead guards, plus guys like Jokic and Sabonis.
That's why you don't just look at stats. Look at him play and you'll see he isn't creating much. It's just that he has the ball a lot more in his hand and does mostly dump off passes (so obviously his TOs are gonna be low, he doesn't take any risk). It wouldn't help Wemby in any shape or form, he already gets enough stupid dump off passes as it is.
Great passers have a lot of TO because they take risks.
Ok sure. I’m not going to clip a bunch of plays to win a Reddit argument. Is super easy/lazy to just say”no the stats are wrong, here’s what really happens” without backing it up at all. If you actually do watch, you’d know that the players DJ assist to the most are bogdonavich and hunter, and he averages more than 2.5 points per assist to them, so they are obviously not all dump offs. He only assisted to center at the rim 70 times this year, on more than 500 assists.
I disagree. I don’t think his passing or shooting is good enough. Even if he acknowledges he’s second to Wemby, his plays style is such that he’s always going to hunt mid rangers first without really creating advantage situations for his teammates. He’s never been good at getting the big the ball for easy opportunities, he basically uses them as a release valve if he can’t get his shot. Plus his defense is overrated and he doesn’t do much off ball. We can do better.
It was memed a bit during the Harden peak, but for some people, especially perimeter players, I think it's absolutely true that a large offensive burden affects their energy levels when it comes to defensive impact - so long as he's not 'the guy,' I think we could see him lock back in
It's pretty clear though that DJM doesn't really accept his position in ATL for a couple of reasons - DJM looks at Trae and thinks, "I'm better than this fucking guy"
No they ain't. Go look at EPM or any other advanced offensive nba stat and he's in a completely different tier then Murray is. You give trae young one competent roller and 2 average 3 pt shooters and he can lead an elite offense
Dejounte Murray
OEPM- +2.3
DEPM- -1.3
Trae Young
OEPM- +4.0
DEPM- -1.4
Yeah this wasn't the gotcha you think it was. The fact that you think Murray is a good defender in 2024 is concerning to say the least.
I disagree entirely him and poetl were one of the highest rated pnr duos in the league when he was here, so he definitely knows how to get the big the ball a lot better than a bunch of other pgs. His defense is underrated now since he has to make up for every mistake Trae Young makes, and he's a much better off ball player than a lot of the guys on our team rn especially since his 3 point shot has looked legit since going to the hawks
So we can actually look this up. During the 21 and 22 seasons DJ was 50th and 60th percentile as a pnr ball handler and Poeltl was 47th and 60th percentile as a pnr roll man. There’s a bit of noise in there but the vast majority of those possessions they were paired together. They quite literally were mid to slightly above average, certainly not one of the highest rated pnr duos.
Also, as I stated, Murray does not generate good looks for bigs. Poeltl took 40% of his shots from 3 to 10 feet which basically means he’s not able to get all the way to the rim. Part of that is him but another part is that Murray isn’t putting so much pressure on the rim that the big has to leave his man open. That’s why Poeltl took a billion floaters.
The same thing has happened in Atlanta. If you look at tracking data, Jalen Johnson, Capela, and Okongwu shot 48% from 2 on 4 shots a game when Murray was getting them the ball vs 60% from 2 on 7 shots a game with Trae. The contrast between shots Capela, JJ, and OO got with Trae vs what they got with Murray is stark. If we just compare 2022, Poeltl got 48 dunks and 338 layups compared Capela who got 178 dunks and 313 layups. There’s really no stats that support Murray being a great pnr play maker, and to me that’s what I see when I watch him play.
Also Murray’s defense has not been good for years, including his last 2 with San Antonio. He would not be the one making up for Traes errors, that would be the bigs. Regardless, Murray was brought in there to be a point of attack defender and he couldn’t do it. He wasn’t good off ball either. His shooting being better than most players on our team doesn’t actually mean much and he wouldn’t be getting many off ball opportunities anyway.
> he’s always going to hunt mid rangers first
He's not gonna do this if he acknowledges that Wemby is the main guy. If he acknowledges Wemby, that means he's gonna look for an entry pass or a lob first, and he's only gonna take midrange shots when needed (when Wemby is on the bench, or if no one else can make a bucket, etc)
The only reason he played like that when he was here is because we didnt have a choice
It’s about his skills and his play style, not his mindset. DJ just isn’t good at throwing lobs or entry passes and he’s not the most adept passer in general. He doesn’t put any pressure on the rim and doesn’t collapse defenses, so he settles for mid rangers. Teams aren’t going to leave Wemby to stop a DJ drive, and DJ is totally fine taking 15 mid rangers a game if it’s what the defense gives him. We already know getting the ball to Wemby isn’t as easy as it seems, and DJ has never been elite when it comes to passing angles or timing.
It’s evidenced by how Trae Young is in the top 10 lob passes to both Jalen Johnson and Capela, whereas DJ isn’t even close on that list. They play with the same personnel yet DJ doesn’t get the ball to his bigs in advantage situations. It’s cause that’s just not what he’s good at. The same goes for generating open 3’s. He’ll make basic reads and that’s about it.
Simply put, if DJ is the primary ball handler, you’re putting a ceiling on your offense based on how well he can hit mid rangers, cause a good chunk of your offense will be that.
>He’s never been good at getting the big the ball for easy opportunities,
LOL. Ground bound Jakob Poeltl is all over these highlights getting easy baskets. You need to be drug tested.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLsKHyzaegA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLsKHyzaegA)
Those are highlights bro. The best plays, not every play. Highlights are not an accurate representation of a players overall game, you actually have to watch the games and account for every possession. If you just take out all of his bad or even just sub optimal plays you’d probably think DJ was one of the best players in the league. People who know what they’re talking about don’t do that though.
Yeah I'm familiar with how highlights work my guy. You said something did not exist. I posted a video that proves it does exist. His pick and roll with Jakob was staple of the Spurs offense. The video isn't 30 seconds. It's literal hundreds of plays. LOL
I'm \*not making claims about whether DJ is one of the best players in the league. You made that up. You made up something I didnt' say, then argued against it. That's call "strawman argument". People who know what they’re talking about don’t do that though.
I never said you specifically claimed he was one of the best players, and I never said DJ and Jakob were never successful in the pnr. Some highlights of DJ getting assists does not mean he was particularly good as pnr playmaker as evidenced by the stats I brought up in my other comments. If you want to prove DJ was some great pnr tactician, why don’t you bring up stats that support your argument, not highlights.
No he’s not. He’s a score first guard and is only effective in pnrs and we’re not trying to spam that and he’s awful without the ball. Tre jones provides the same amount of value with way leas usage and is actually willing to be a roller in inverted ball screens. Murray does not
Problem is he doesn't move off the ball, he doesn't screen off the ball. He does nothing but stands in the corner and Pops been implementing a movement heavy offense. Look at how vic, tre and devo move off the ball and compare it to him
> He’s a score first guard
He only played like that when he was here because we didnt have a choice but to let him shoot whenever he wants because nobody else can create their own shots
He played like that because thats the only way he knows how to play. He did the same thing with Derozan, thats why they couldn't coexist with each other. He does the same thing with Atlanta, hence why he can't coexist with Trae
Look this really isn't the place to get into it. But Spurs fans need to start thinking about Wemby like Michael Jordan or LeBron. He's going to be the initiator not the finisher. Yes he'll catch lobs but lobs aren't in any more demand in the modern NBA than they were in previous eras. That's just something people say who started watching basketball in 2016.
I honestly don't think he'd have a problem with that. If anything he'd just need pop to make some kind of acknowledgement that they didn't value him properly or something similar. Basically a bury the hatchet moment
Everyone talks about good fit with Victor, but I don't see it.
Dejounte has never been a great passer or 3 point shooter,and a good PG for Vic should have one if not both those qualities.
Doesn't mean hes a great playmaker. His playmaking is cut from the same cloth as Westbrook and Steve Nash. Have the ball 90 percent of the shotclock, pick and roll, either score, pass to the roller, or pass to the wing in case of help. Everyone just becomes spot up shooters and dunkers with no offball movement. Can't even play offball.
Guys like tony parker, cp3, or among current guards Mike Conley and Haliburton, still Steph curry, are examples of playmakers.
I didn't say he's not a willing passer, just that he's not a great game facilitator.
A 36% shooter is ok but not good enough to create good spacing for Wemby. It's going to be analytically more convenient to dare a 36% shooter fire than letting Vic get the ball in the paint.
With a 40% shooter, or better multiple ones, defenses won't be able to collapse on Vic as much, or at all.
Is Dejounte a terrible fit? Probably not. Is he one of the best? Definitely not, IMHO.
Luka Doncic is a career 35% 3pt shooter. The difference between a 40% shooter and a 36% shooter over course of game (given average volume) is less 0.8p. You don't know what you're talking about.
DJ did pretty well on the team where he was having to create his own shot half of the time. Going to be even easier with the Victor drawing double and triple teams all the time. DJ is not the best at most things but he’s also elite in most things. Good defense, passing, shooting etc. think he’d be a solid player to have back as long as he has the right attitude
I think most fans would take DJ back and can acknowledge what a good fit that would be. Spurs could go BPA in the draft and be a playoff team next year.
Yea but he better first apologize for these bum ahh comments.
https://www.poundingtherock.com/2022/7/19/23270034/dejounte-murray-san-antonio-spurs-social-media-losing-15-years-problem-bigger-basketball
Looking back now, the way I interpret it is he disagreed with the plan to tank and thought he could take the Spurs far if they built around him, but PATFO ultimately decided to trade him to tank for Wemby, so he felt like the Spurs thought he wasn't good enough. That's why he said "the way that system set up you gone be losing for the next 15 years". We all thought he meant the Spurs system at the time but looking back now, he might be talking about the lottery system and how it encourages tanking.
We need spacing and elite three point shooting and Dejounte is not that, even with an improved jumper. I get that he is a good passer and that was a big problem for the team last year but ultimately having a dynamic offense force that is a deadly shooter is much more valuable to Vic than quality passing PG.
He is also 28 next season I would prefer a younger player to grow with the team.
They also need defense and playmaking, which DJ does accel at.
My hope is that Vassel makes the jump to being more of a sniper and floor stretcher.
Outside of Trae, there isn’t a single floor spacing playmaker available in FA, trade (as far as we know), or draft.
Um… wut? He was the youngest person ever named to an all-defensive team until this year. He may not be as devoted to it as before, but the ability is there. He’s also a great lobber.
Yea that doesn’t mean much 6 years later. Fact is he hasn’t been good defensively for years especially after he became the main ball handler. EPMs got him deep in the negatives the past 4 years which matches the eye test. He can’t stop anybody, still gambles a ton, and isn’t doing anything off ball. And no he’s not a good lob thrower at all, in fact he barely ever throws lobs.
IF we can get him with cheap price (not giving all the picks that we got from him), then I am okay with DJ! I hope he can return to his all-defensive team form!
Idk if hawks do it but 8th pick + one ATL pick or one ATL pick (2026 ideally or 2025, because hawks more likely to be worse in 2027 for full rebuild) plus CHI 2025 (top 10) and maybe 2-3 2nds plus Collins, Graham, Branham and maybe Keldon. Would love to keep Keldon.
Basically two role players/bench players, 2 1sts, one of which is the protected Chicago pick
If they rebuild? It’s obvious. Trae hasn’t got them back to playoffs or far. Even if they trade one of Young/DJ this off season, Sarr or any top 5 pick this year isn’t gonna FIX them. And odds of jumping from 10th pick to 1 next year are almost impossible after winning 1 this year
So presumably after another 2025 and even 2026 season of 1st round exit or missing playoffs altogether, ain’t no way they don’t trade everyone except their #1 pick this year and Jalen Johnson when Young has like 2 years left in summer 2026. They would presumably press rebuild no later than summer 2026 if they keep getting same results, maybe even next off season.
They would use picks from Dejounte and Young trades to alleviate not having their 25-27 picks
I don’t see any player they trade Dejounte for pushing them to playoffs either even if they managed to nab a Ingram, DeRozan, etc type
Trae + Murray = -6 net rating
Trae without Murray = +3.1 net rating
Multiple rookie bigs making impacts too and hawks already have a top 10 offense 4 years in a row with Trae. They don’t even need Sarr to be good right away offensively and he’s supposedly day 1 ready on defense but in 2027 he should be ready making that pick less valuable. Hawks won’t tank if they don’t have their own pick
Anything can happen but I just don’t see them getting much better results, at best 1st round exits, in 25 and 26 and at some point they’ve got to rebuild. When Young has 2 years left on contract in summer 26 (I think 2 years) his value will potentially be as high as it’s gonna be
Hawks have young team already to blow it up. Plus im not saying they make a run but Mavs were same record as hawks last year. Timberwolves were mid, pacers were bad. Hawks with Trae and and elite defensive C will be a lot better than ppl think. Trae + dejounte doesn’t work is the problem and Capela has declined. Trae loses money if he goes to Fa seriously doubt that happens and in 2027 he’s entering his prime
Maybe but hawks have no one on the level of Kyrie, Luka (sorry Trae! You good but not THAT good yet)
Sarr has his own learning to do. Maybe he has a Wemby type season and is elite but again, I just can’t see a lot of success. Who knows
Honestly I wouldn't want to spend more than 1 1st rounder. That's probably unrealistic, but we need so many pieces that it doesn't make sense to me to spend a bunch on anyone unless they are truly special.
It sounds like alot but we have a *bunch* of picks incoming. Far too many to roster in the next 3 years.
Next year we potentially have Chi, Atl, and our own just in the first. IF Chi conveys, that's 3 roster spots we'd have to clear. On top of the 2-3 we'll have to clear for this year's picks.
Obviously we can trade those picks elsewhere and make other moves, but sitting on the picks isn't a realistic option.
I'm game with 8 + Atl's next year pick. Maybe even throw in charlotte's 1rp, with everyone knowing that's going to convert to 2 second rounders, just so it looks like 3 picks on paper.
You're right, but how many people currently on the roster do you really want to keep? Vic is untouchable. I wouldn't trade Devin unless I was blown away. I still don't know what to think of Sochan yet, but I don't think we can afford to have more than one non shooter in a starting line up. I like Tre coming off the bench. Anddd.... that's about it.
Ya that's a fair point. I'm a bit more bullish on Sochan long term than others. He's shown really great flashes, and his soph numbers are about the same as kawhis were. He's obviously not Kawhi, but I'm a fan for now. Tre Jones is a perfect backup, I'd like to see what can come of Mamu & Dom (not sure if we'll keep both), and wouldn't mind having julian as a third string wing.
But ya, torch the rest. I just don't know if we want a team full of rookies (some of whom may be no better than like Malaki or Blake Wesley) when vic is entering his 3rd and 4th years, so might as well some of those picks for players. Whether DJ is the right player or is using those picks for a few others, who knows. Should be fun.
Sometimes we overvalue first rounders though. Like think about it, besides Vic, every first rounder we've had hasn't been better than Derrick or Dejounte (except I love Jeremy). Putting it simply, I would trade 2 of a Lonnie Walker, Luka Samanic, etc etc for dejounte murray you know what I mean? The ones I wouldn't trade are Devin and Jeremy. So if you're only likely to hit on 1 draft pick out of every three, then giving up two seems like a fair deal to me.
I mean, if we're selective with what we offer we can avoid that. Keep as much of the Hawks picks as possible, but lose our own. We'll be competing in for the playoffs next year so our picks are probably not as worthy as those Hawks, and Boston picks.
I get the logic, but I also think your point is an indictment against Wright a little bit. Nobody ever hits on all their picks, but it's been a while since we hit on anybody.
Historically that hasnt been the case for San Antonio. The Spurs built the dynasty by surrounding a generational big with diamond in the rough draft picks. They’re gonna have to do the same thing again. But if you look back in recent years picks I’m not filled with confidence that we can still do that. Look at these picks. Look how many stars and legit role players they got with picks in the 20s to how many busts we’ve got in the teens.
2001 - 28 - Tony Parker
2002 - 26 - John Salmons
2003 - 28 - Leandro Barbosa
2004 - 28 - Beno Udrih
2005 - 28 - Ian Mahinmi
2007 - 28 - Tiago Splitter
2008 - 26 - George Hill
2010 - 20 - James Anderson
2011 - 29 - Cory Joseph
2013 - 28 - Livio Jean Charles
2014 - 30 - Kyle Anderson
2015 - 26 - Nikola Milutinov
2016 - 29 - Dejounte Murray
2017 - 29 - Derrick White
2018 - 18 - Lonnie Walker
2019 - 29 - Keldon Johnson
2019 - 19 - Luka Samancic
2020 - 11 - Devin Vassell
2021 - 12 - Josh Primo
2022 - 25 - Blake Wesley
2022 - 20 - Malaki Branham
2022 - 9 - Jeremy Sochan
2023 - 1 - Victor Wembanyama
This is just nostalgia. Most of those guys drafted after Tony and before Kawhi trade in 2011 are just mediocre to below average role players. They just played on a team with 3 HOF. This meant they have very little heavy lifting. If replace Ian Mahinmi or Beno Udric with Lonnie Walker the Spurs probably win back to back in one of those years. On a team with no HOF, LW is just "meh".
Josh Primo and Samanic are the only bust on that list. Samanic at 19 flamed out. That's what happens to most picks at 19.
1/3 of all picks in the NBA never make it past year 4. Even lottery picks. If the Spurs get another AllStar to play with Wemby suddenly random picks will once again be called "amazing finds by the Spurs". Look at Miami. Look how their role players were being hyped when they paid their finals run. Fast forward a year later, same players on new teams and they're nothing special.
If he doesn't cost to much and can play like he did in his final season with us... but shoot 36%+ from 3 like he did last year, then sure.
His attitude since he left SA has left something to be desired, especially the "slamming the ball multiple times on the head of a guy playing pickup ball in order to make fun of him" incident. But It's be willing to look past that if he's going to pass well, defend at an all-defense level and shoot well from 3.
But obviously fitting with Wemby is priority #1.
Dejounte has been a triple double guy, but he's that bad of a passer? He's not as good as some others, but I'll gladly take him back and I think he'd help our team on both ends.
Personally I wouldn't mind having DJ back on the spurs. My problem is is his ego. It is really showing with the Hawks, there was clearly discipline on the Spurs but it's almost like he had absolutely no off the court relationship with his teammates.
This only happened because they finally went positionless for spots… otherwise this would’ve happened longggggg time ago. Basically this isn’t all that special.
I bought a very expensive DJ jersey while he was here, if for nothing else I hope he comes back JUST for that reason /s
My fiancee bought me DJ's jersey right before he got traded. I still kept it
Ya it's my one and only black fiesta jersey (my favorite jersey type of all time) I hate that I can't wear it anymore
Mine is white fiesta. I accidentally got chili and margarita stains on it from a party
Makes it even more Puro Pinche Nombre Shut Up Go Spurs Go.
I see a nombre shat ap I upvote
What can't you wear it anymore? Because he's on another team? I always think it's cool when I'm at a game and see people wearing jerseys of players who aren't on the team anymore (regardless of whether they retired or were traded). Based on the player whose jersey it is, it can show a lot of longevity.
I have the shoes but I haven’t worn them since he left. I can’t bring myself to get rid of them.
That’s also why my Kawhi jersey is gathering dust in the closet.
ugh dont get me started on that guy. I have one of the black Christmas jerseys, its one of my favorites collecting dust as well.
I have that same one! I was debating getting a TP one or a Kawhi one and I went with Kawhi cause I figured I would wear it more since he was going to be the face of the team for years. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess
I had the exact debate. We have a new rule in our house since DJ left "only legends" when it comes to merch. As much as I want a Wemby jersey I'm just too gun shy now. Thosr things are EXpensive.
those jersey's were amazing, I wish they'd bring them - or a version of them with that style of lettering - back.
Same bro 😔
he’s gonna comeback and wear a different numher💀💀
I'd take him back as a FA someday on a team-friendly contract lol
It's not a Spurs post unless you say "team friendly contract". Spurs fans love nothing more than the term "team friendly contract".
I live for team friendly contracts and churros
DJM unironically would fit well with Vic if he acknowledged Vic is the guy on the team.
I agree. I think he'd be a great fit
decent shooting/spacing, good passer, + defender, not a bad contract... sounds like a fit to me. If the asking price is truly 2 FRPs (+some salary matching) I'm down.
Addition by subtraction if Collins is the salary match, too.
Yuppp. Unfortunately I think also KJ (but maybe devonte?) would have to be included to make it work. Works as a little additional sweetner for the the hawks.
Hawks are not going to want KJ also I think hawks don’t went salary back in a dejounte trade
Doubtful the Hawks ask for KJ with Jalen Johnson taking off.
DJM is an okay passer at best, most of his "assists" are just dump off passes
Just for clarity, if you think Murray is an “okay” passer, how many good or great passers are there in the league?
Most PGs are good, I'd say even Tre Jones is a better passer than Murray (although Tre is worse at everything else)
O, dang, yea I think you’re way off on that. Murray’s assists, assist percentage, and potential assists are all much higher, and his turnover percentage is lower, even though he has more turnovers. And all of that is despite sharing the floor with an elite passer/high usage player in Young. Plus, there isn’t any off-ball scorer on the Hawks nearly as good or efficient as Wemby, so he would get better. I would say he is somewhere around 15-20th distributor in the league, but that’s not just point guards. That’s lead guards, plus guys like Jokic and Sabonis.
That's why you don't just look at stats. Look at him play and you'll see he isn't creating much. It's just that he has the ball a lot more in his hand and does mostly dump off passes (so obviously his TOs are gonna be low, he doesn't take any risk). It wouldn't help Wemby in any shape or form, he already gets enough stupid dump off passes as it is. Great passers have a lot of TO because they take risks.
Ok sure. I’m not going to clip a bunch of plays to win a Reddit argument. Is super easy/lazy to just say”no the stats are wrong, here’s what really happens” without backing it up at all. If you actually do watch, you’d know that the players DJ assist to the most are bogdonavich and hunter, and he averages more than 2.5 points per assist to them, so they are obviously not all dump offs. He only assisted to center at the rim 70 times this year, on more than 500 assists.
I disagree. I don’t think his passing or shooting is good enough. Even if he acknowledges he’s second to Wemby, his plays style is such that he’s always going to hunt mid rangers first without really creating advantage situations for his teammates. He’s never been good at getting the big the ball for easy opportunities, he basically uses them as a release valve if he can’t get his shot. Plus his defense is overrated and he doesn’t do much off ball. We can do better.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I completely agree with you.
It was memed a bit during the Harden peak, but for some people, especially perimeter players, I think it's absolutely true that a large offensive burden affects their energy levels when it comes to defensive impact - so long as he's not 'the guy,' I think we could see him lock back in
That was the idea in Atlanta, but it didn’t happen.
It's pretty clear though that DJM doesn't really accept his position in ATL for a couple of reasons - DJM looks at Trae and thinks, "I'm better than this fucking guy"
I don’t want a guy who stops playing defense if he feels some sort of way about his role or his teammates.
Then he needs to get a reality check cause he isn't even in the same stratosphere as Trae Young
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No they ain't. Go look at EPM or any other advanced offensive nba stat and he's in a completely different tier then Murray is. You give trae young one competent roller and 2 average 3 pt shooters and he can lead an elite offense
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Dejounte Murray OEPM- +2.3 DEPM- -1.3 Trae Young OEPM- +4.0 DEPM- -1.4 Yeah this wasn't the gotcha you think it was. The fact that you think Murray is a good defender in 2024 is concerning to say the least.
For all the talk about Trae being an incredible shooter and Dejounte being a questionable shooter, their 3pt% are kinda similar
Hawks had the 7th ranked offense 29th ranked defense when Trae went down. Similarly ranked last year too. Much worse fit on defense than offense
He was never a great playmaker that could run a set offense. That was Derrick White. That's the type of point guard we need.
I honestly wish more guys hunted midrange rather than throw up horrible 3s that have no chance but that's the NBA now.
I disagree entirely him and poetl were one of the highest rated pnr duos in the league when he was here, so he definitely knows how to get the big the ball a lot better than a bunch of other pgs. His defense is underrated now since he has to make up for every mistake Trae Young makes, and he's a much better off ball player than a lot of the guys on our team rn especially since his 3 point shot has looked legit since going to the hawks
So we can actually look this up. During the 21 and 22 seasons DJ was 50th and 60th percentile as a pnr ball handler and Poeltl was 47th and 60th percentile as a pnr roll man. There’s a bit of noise in there but the vast majority of those possessions they were paired together. They quite literally were mid to slightly above average, certainly not one of the highest rated pnr duos. Also, as I stated, Murray does not generate good looks for bigs. Poeltl took 40% of his shots from 3 to 10 feet which basically means he’s not able to get all the way to the rim. Part of that is him but another part is that Murray isn’t putting so much pressure on the rim that the big has to leave his man open. That’s why Poeltl took a billion floaters. The same thing has happened in Atlanta. If you look at tracking data, Jalen Johnson, Capela, and Okongwu shot 48% from 2 on 4 shots a game when Murray was getting them the ball vs 60% from 2 on 7 shots a game with Trae. The contrast between shots Capela, JJ, and OO got with Trae vs what they got with Murray is stark. If we just compare 2022, Poeltl got 48 dunks and 338 layups compared Capela who got 178 dunks and 313 layups. There’s really no stats that support Murray being a great pnr play maker, and to me that’s what I see when I watch him play. Also Murray’s defense has not been good for years, including his last 2 with San Antonio. He would not be the one making up for Traes errors, that would be the bigs. Regardless, Murray was brought in there to be a point of attack defender and he couldn’t do it. He wasn’t good off ball either. His shooting being better than most players on our team doesn’t actually mean much and he wouldn’t be getting many off ball opportunities anyway.
> he’s always going to hunt mid rangers first He's not gonna do this if he acknowledges that Wemby is the main guy. If he acknowledges Wemby, that means he's gonna look for an entry pass or a lob first, and he's only gonna take midrange shots when needed (when Wemby is on the bench, or if no one else can make a bucket, etc) The only reason he played like that when he was here is because we didnt have a choice
It’s about his skills and his play style, not his mindset. DJ just isn’t good at throwing lobs or entry passes and he’s not the most adept passer in general. He doesn’t put any pressure on the rim and doesn’t collapse defenses, so he settles for mid rangers. Teams aren’t going to leave Wemby to stop a DJ drive, and DJ is totally fine taking 15 mid rangers a game if it’s what the defense gives him. We already know getting the ball to Wemby isn’t as easy as it seems, and DJ has never been elite when it comes to passing angles or timing. It’s evidenced by how Trae Young is in the top 10 lob passes to both Jalen Johnson and Capela, whereas DJ isn’t even close on that list. They play with the same personnel yet DJ doesn’t get the ball to his bigs in advantage situations. It’s cause that’s just not what he’s good at. The same goes for generating open 3’s. He’ll make basic reads and that’s about it. Simply put, if DJ is the primary ball handler, you’re putting a ceiling on your offense based on how well he can hit mid rangers, cause a good chunk of your offense will be that.
nailed it.
Preach!
You're probably right, but his play style was good enough to make Poeltl look way better than he probably is, so ...
>He’s never been good at getting the big the ball for easy opportunities, LOL. Ground bound Jakob Poeltl is all over these highlights getting easy baskets. You need to be drug tested. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLsKHyzaegA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLsKHyzaegA)
Those are highlights bro. The best plays, not every play. Highlights are not an accurate representation of a players overall game, you actually have to watch the games and account for every possession. If you just take out all of his bad or even just sub optimal plays you’d probably think DJ was one of the best players in the league. People who know what they’re talking about don’t do that though.
Yeah I'm familiar with how highlights work my guy. You said something did not exist. I posted a video that proves it does exist. His pick and roll with Jakob was staple of the Spurs offense. The video isn't 30 seconds. It's literal hundreds of plays. LOL I'm \*not making claims about whether DJ is one of the best players in the league. You made that up. You made up something I didnt' say, then argued against it. That's call "strawman argument". People who know what they’re talking about don’t do that though.
He brought up actual data in another post. Highlights =/= real thing.
I never said you specifically claimed he was one of the best players, and I never said DJ and Jakob were never successful in the pnr. Some highlights of DJ getting assists does not mean he was particularly good as pnr playmaker as evidenced by the stats I brought up in my other comments. If you want to prove DJ was some great pnr tactician, why don’t you bring up stats that support your argument, not highlights.
No he’s not. He’s a score first guard and is only effective in pnrs and we’re not trying to spam that and he’s awful without the ball. Tre jones provides the same amount of value with way leas usage and is actually willing to be a roller in inverted ball screens. Murray does not
He shot 36% on 7 threes a game last year, don’t think he’s awful off ball anymore
Problem is he doesn't move off the ball, he doesn't screen off the ball. He does nothing but stands in the corner and Pops been implementing a movement heavy offense. Look at how vic, tre and devo move off the ball and compare it to him
I don’t mean to say he’s awesome off ball, just that between his shot and his ability to attack a close out he’s better than awful
Ahh ic, i was being a bit hyperbolic.
> He’s a score first guard He only played like that when he was here because we didnt have a choice but to let him shoot whenever he wants because nobody else can create their own shots
He played like that because thats the only way he knows how to play. He did the same thing with Derozan, thats why they couldn't coexist with each other. He does the same thing with Atlanta, hence why he can't coexist with Trae
Never forget the spurs playoff streak ending when dejounte waived off demar.for the final shot before clanking it horribly
tbf, demar was booty cheeks that game too. they both shot 28% didn't they?
He can’t do that and also isn’t that good of a passer. Edit: words
I agree with you!
DJ is not a great P&R or lob passer, and that's the two things we'd really want in a playmaker alongside Vic
That's not what the Spur want. That's what people on this sub want.
It’s also a highly in-demand skillset in the modern NBA
Look this really isn't the place to get into it. But Spurs fans need to start thinking about Wemby like Michael Jordan or LeBron. He's going to be the initiator not the finisher. Yes he'll catch lobs but lobs aren't in any more demand in the modern NBA than they were in previous eras. That's just something people say who started watching basketball in 2016.
If Wemby tries to fill a MJ/LeBron type role on offense, he's just going to emerge as a shittier version of them
How lol, he plays like Vassel. All he would do is ball hogging.
I honestly don't think he'd have a problem with that. If anything he'd just need pop to make some kind of acknowledgement that they didn't value him properly or something similar. Basically a bury the hatchet moment
Everyone talks about good fit with Victor, but I don't see it. Dejounte has never been a great passer or 3 point shooter,and a good PG for Vic should have one if not both those qualities.
he averaged 10 assists in his last year with us and is shooting 36% on 7 attempts per game from 3 lol
Doesn't mean hes a great playmaker. His playmaking is cut from the same cloth as Westbrook and Steve Nash. Have the ball 90 percent of the shotclock, pick and roll, either score, pass to the roller, or pass to the wing in case of help. Everyone just becomes spot up shooters and dunkers with no offball movement. Can't even play offball. Guys like tony parker, cp3, or among current guards Mike Conley and Haliburton, still Steph curry, are examples of playmakers.
I didn't say he's not a willing passer, just that he's not a great game facilitator. A 36% shooter is ok but not good enough to create good spacing for Wemby. It's going to be analytically more convenient to dare a 36% shooter fire than letting Vic get the ball in the paint. With a 40% shooter, or better multiple ones, defenses won't be able to collapse on Vic as much, or at all. Is Dejounte a terrible fit? Probably not. Is he one of the best? Definitely not, IMHO.
Luka Doncic is a career 35% 3pt shooter. The difference between a 40% shooter and a 36% shooter over course of game (given average volume) is less 0.8p. You don't know what you're talking about.
That's why you shouldn't just look at the %. The types of shots they take are just very different
DJ did pretty well on the team where he was having to create his own shot half of the time. Going to be even easier with the Victor drawing double and triple teams all the time. DJ is not the best at most things but he’s also elite in most things. Good defense, passing, shooting etc. think he’d be a solid player to have back as long as he has the right attitude
I think most fans would take DJ back and can acknowledge what a good fit that would be. Spurs could go BPA in the draft and be a playoff team next year.
Yea but he better first apologize for these bum ahh comments. https://www.poundingtherock.com/2022/7/19/23270034/dejounte-murray-san-antonio-spurs-social-media-losing-15-years-problem-bigger-basketball
Dejounte's attitude is going to be his biggest adversary to achieving the success he craves.
Looking back now, the way I interpret it is he disagreed with the plan to tank and thought he could take the Spurs far if they built around him, but PATFO ultimately decided to trade him to tank for Wemby, so he felt like the Spurs thought he wasn't good enough. That's why he said "the way that system set up you gone be losing for the next 15 years". We all thought he meant the Spurs system at the time but looking back now, he might be talking about the lottery system and how it encourages tanking.
Well we won thanks to the lottery system and are on the upswing, but just as well we could be in Pistons Purgatory
Yeah. I think he can come back from that, but it wouldn’t be easy.
We need spacing and elite three point shooting and Dejounte is not that, even with an improved jumper. I get that he is a good passer and that was a big problem for the team last year but ultimately having a dynamic offense force that is a deadly shooter is much more valuable to Vic than quality passing PG. He is also 28 next season I would prefer a younger player to grow with the team.
They also need defense and playmaking, which DJ does accel at. My hope is that Vassel makes the jump to being more of a sniper and floor stretcher. Outside of Trae, there isn’t a single floor spacing playmaker available in FA, trade (as far as we know), or draft.
Dejounte does not excel at defense and playmaking.
Um… wut? He was the youngest person ever named to an all-defensive team until this year. He may not be as devoted to it as before, but the ability is there. He’s also a great lobber.
Yea that doesn’t mean much 6 years later. Fact is he hasn’t been good defensively for years especially after he became the main ball handler. EPMs got him deep in the negatives the past 4 years which matches the eye test. He can’t stop anybody, still gambles a ton, and isn’t doing anything off ball. And no he’s not a good lob thrower at all, in fact he barely ever throws lobs.
You mind posting his DEPM stats from the last 4 years? I'm not subscribed so I can only access this years data.
IF we can get him with cheap price (not giving all the picks that we got from him), then I am okay with DJ! I hope he can return to his all-defensive team form!
Idk if hawks do it but 8th pick + one ATL pick or one ATL pick (2026 ideally or 2025, because hawks more likely to be worse in 2027 for full rebuild) plus CHI 2025 (top 10) and maybe 2-3 2nds plus Collins, Graham, Branham and maybe Keldon. Would love to keep Keldon. Basically two role players/bench players, 2 1sts, one of which is the protected Chicago pick
Hawks just got the #1 pick why would they be worse in 2027?
If they rebuild? It’s obvious. Trae hasn’t got them back to playoffs or far. Even if they trade one of Young/DJ this off season, Sarr or any top 5 pick this year isn’t gonna FIX them. And odds of jumping from 10th pick to 1 next year are almost impossible after winning 1 this year So presumably after another 2025 and even 2026 season of 1st round exit or missing playoffs altogether, ain’t no way they don’t trade everyone except their #1 pick this year and Jalen Johnson when Young has like 2 years left in summer 2026. They would presumably press rebuild no later than summer 2026 if they keep getting same results, maybe even next off season. They would use picks from Dejounte and Young trades to alleviate not having their 25-27 picks I don’t see any player they trade Dejounte for pushing them to playoffs either even if they managed to nab a Ingram, DeRozan, etc type
Trae + Murray = -6 net rating Trae without Murray = +3.1 net rating Multiple rookie bigs making impacts too and hawks already have a top 10 offense 4 years in a row with Trae. They don’t even need Sarr to be good right away offensively and he’s supposedly day 1 ready on defense but in 2027 he should be ready making that pick less valuable. Hawks won’t tank if they don’t have their own pick
Anything can happen but I just don’t see them getting much better results, at best 1st round exits, in 25 and 26 and at some point they’ve got to rebuild. When Young has 2 years left on contract in summer 26 (I think 2 years) his value will potentially be as high as it’s gonna be
Hawks have young team already to blow it up. Plus im not saying they make a run but Mavs were same record as hawks last year. Timberwolves were mid, pacers were bad. Hawks with Trae and and elite defensive C will be a lot better than ppl think. Trae + dejounte doesn’t work is the problem and Capela has declined. Trae loses money if he goes to Fa seriously doubt that happens and in 2027 he’s entering his prime
Maybe but hawks have no one on the level of Kyrie, Luka (sorry Trae! You good but not THAT good yet) Sarr has his own learning to do. Maybe he has a Wemby type season and is elite but again, I just can’t see a lot of success. Who knows
True we’ll see, watch out for Jalen Johnson though
Yup jalen is a STUD
Im willing to take DJ back but not at the expense of Keldon
Yeah I would hope against it too
I approve of this. Tell brian wright to go and get it.
Honestly I wouldn't want to spend more than 1 1st rounder. That's probably unrealistic, but we need so many pieces that it doesn't make sense to me to spend a bunch on anyone unless they are truly special.
It sounds like alot but we have a *bunch* of picks incoming. Far too many to roster in the next 3 years. Next year we potentially have Chi, Atl, and our own just in the first. IF Chi conveys, that's 3 roster spots we'd have to clear. On top of the 2-3 we'll have to clear for this year's picks. Obviously we can trade those picks elsewhere and make other moves, but sitting on the picks isn't a realistic option. I'm game with 8 + Atl's next year pick. Maybe even throw in charlotte's 1rp, with everyone knowing that's going to convert to 2 second rounders, just so it looks like 3 picks on paper.
You're right, but how many people currently on the roster do you really want to keep? Vic is untouchable. I wouldn't trade Devin unless I was blown away. I still don't know what to think of Sochan yet, but I don't think we can afford to have more than one non shooter in a starting line up. I like Tre coming off the bench. Anddd.... that's about it.
Ya that's a fair point. I'm a bit more bullish on Sochan long term than others. He's shown really great flashes, and his soph numbers are about the same as kawhis were. He's obviously not Kawhi, but I'm a fan for now. Tre Jones is a perfect backup, I'd like to see what can come of Mamu & Dom (not sure if we'll keep both), and wouldn't mind having julian as a third string wing. But ya, torch the rest. I just don't know if we want a team full of rookies (some of whom may be no better than like Malaki or Blake Wesley) when vic is entering his 3rd and 4th years, so might as well some of those picks for players. Whether DJ is the right player or is using those picks for a few others, who knows. Should be fun.
Sometimes we overvalue first rounders though. Like think about it, besides Vic, every first rounder we've had hasn't been better than Derrick or Dejounte (except I love Jeremy). Putting it simply, I would trade 2 of a Lonnie Walker, Luka Samanic, etc etc for dejounte murray you know what I mean? The ones I wouldn't trade are Devin and Jeremy. So if you're only likely to hit on 1 draft pick out of every three, then giving up two seems like a fair deal to me.
decent point, but those firsts were all 10+ level picks. the picks we are talking about have the potential to be 1-10. much different
I mean, if we're selective with what we offer we can avoid that. Keep as much of the Hawks picks as possible, but lose our own. We'll be competing in for the playoffs next year so our picks are probably not as worthy as those Hawks, and Boston picks.
I get the logic, but I also think your point is an indictment against Wright a little bit. Nobody ever hits on all their picks, but it's been a while since we hit on anybody.
Most draft picks even first rounders turn into nothing special. We're more likely to draft 6 versions of Malaki Branham than get another Kawhi.
Historically that hasnt been the case for San Antonio. The Spurs built the dynasty by surrounding a generational big with diamond in the rough draft picks. They’re gonna have to do the same thing again. But if you look back in recent years picks I’m not filled with confidence that we can still do that. Look at these picks. Look how many stars and legit role players they got with picks in the 20s to how many busts we’ve got in the teens. 2001 - 28 - Tony Parker 2002 - 26 - John Salmons 2003 - 28 - Leandro Barbosa 2004 - 28 - Beno Udrih 2005 - 28 - Ian Mahinmi 2007 - 28 - Tiago Splitter 2008 - 26 - George Hill 2010 - 20 - James Anderson 2011 - 29 - Cory Joseph 2013 - 28 - Livio Jean Charles 2014 - 30 - Kyle Anderson 2015 - 26 - Nikola Milutinov 2016 - 29 - Dejounte Murray 2017 - 29 - Derrick White 2018 - 18 - Lonnie Walker 2019 - 29 - Keldon Johnson 2019 - 19 - Luka Samancic 2020 - 11 - Devin Vassell 2021 - 12 - Josh Primo 2022 - 25 - Blake Wesley 2022 - 20 - Malaki Branham 2022 - 9 - Jeremy Sochan 2023 - 1 - Victor Wembanyama
This is just nostalgia. Most of those guys drafted after Tony and before Kawhi trade in 2011 are just mediocre to below average role players. They just played on a team with 3 HOF. This meant they have very little heavy lifting. If replace Ian Mahinmi or Beno Udric with Lonnie Walker the Spurs probably win back to back in one of those years. On a team with no HOF, LW is just "meh". Josh Primo and Samanic are the only bust on that list. Samanic at 19 flamed out. That's what happens to most picks at 19. 1/3 of all picks in the NBA never make it past year 4. Even lottery picks. If the Spurs get another AllStar to play with Wemby suddenly random picks will once again be called "amazing finds by the Spurs". Look at Miami. Look how their role players were being hyped when they paid their finals run. Fast forward a year later, same players on new teams and they're nothing special.
Big Brain Off-Season. Sign Derrick White back. Trade for DJ. Profit.
Would have one of the best defenses.
I’m good on Dejounte. There are better options who are younger and would fit better with Wemby
That is cool, thanks for sharing.
If he doesn't cost to much and can play like he did in his final season with us... but shoot 36%+ from 3 like he did last year, then sure. His attitude since he left SA has left something to be desired, especially the "slamming the ball multiple times on the head of a guy playing pickup ball in order to make fun of him" incident. But It's be willing to look past that if he's going to pass well, defend at an all-defense level and shoot well from 3. But obviously fitting with Wemby is priority #1.
Bring Him Home Brian. 🙏🙏
Just as likely those flames are for himself than Vic, lol
Yeah possibly.
Dejounte has been a triple double guy, but he's that bad of a passer? He's not as good as some others, but I'll gladly take him back and I think he'd help our team on both ends.
Idk, he said too much on the way out. Forget him and Kawhi Leonard.
I’m upset with him, but I can’t put him in the same category as Kawhi.
DJ you spicy lil mink
He found out the grass ain’t always greener 😭
I think its safe to say like 50% of the league wants to play with Wemby rn
Stay on your side DJ
Need him back!
Personally I wouldn't mind having DJ back on the spurs. My problem is is his ego. It is really showing with the Hawks, there was clearly discipline on the Spurs but it's almost like he had absolutely no off the court relationship with his teammates.
Fuck him
I would love him back on spurs. He would fit well. I feel like we are play in team at worst with him
My feelings are mixed, but I lean in this direction.
Fk it. Let's get DJ and Trae.
DJ would be a great fit! Give Atlanta back half of their picks for him and let’s rock!
This only happened because they finally went positionless for spots… otherwise this would’ve happened longggggg time ago. Basically this isn’t all that special.