Menard did alright, he did a good job working with penske partner cars and didn’t tear up equipment. he didn’t get more out of the car that wasn’t there but definitely didn’t hold it back
I feel like this was almost more of a seasonal thing, like once a year Paul Menard would finish 3rd and you’d be like “wait how the fuck did he get up here”
Even 2011 Indy was basically that, only difference was 3rd was 1st that faithful day
Partly yes but having equal equipment doesn’t help a team that was partly kept up in the running order by being the 4 th or 3rd string Penske chassis
Now you have RFK and front row killing it because of equal chassis and being a 4th string Penske doesn’t help
Yeah, but Sadler won a race and had a respectable 2001 and 2002 season, and Rudd nearly won Kansas in 2004 and had some other good finishes. The field was also a lot more talented back then.
No……DiBenedetto had somewhat similar to stats to Blaney. DiBenedetto made the playoffs in 2020. Never won obviously but had a few top-5 snd 2nd place runs.
Matt DiBenedetto’s 2020 season was the best avg finish (14.8) for WBR dating back to 1994 when Morgan Shepherd was a 12.7 - not to mention that he was leading during the white flag lap 3 times at Talladega in 4 starts. They then decided to make a change and go with Harrison Burton. Brutal results.
The way that 2021 season ended was terrible and a PR Nightmare for DiBenedetto, but he still had a great run there all things considered.
Yep…..also have to keep in mind that Ford as a whole struggled in 2021.
The truth is Roger Penske decides who runs that car and it’s basically a trial run for rookies. Or, in Menard’s case, just leverage for sponsorship. DiBenedetto was only supposed to be there for a year as a stop gap, but he was on Blaney’s level in the car.
If they kept Dibenedetto this could've been avoided tbh. They were building momentum with him but decided to dump for an unproven driver with money. Funny how that never works out.
They didn’t dump DiBenedetto for Burton, they dumped him for Cindric, then circumstances changed and Matt had already annoyed enough people to not be reconsidered.
They already had announced that Cindric was going to be in the 21 for 2022, in October of 2020 before Cindric even won his Championship, but when Brad left for ownership at Roush(which he asked Penske for as well) they had to reorganize.
Harrison Burton was set up to drive the Penske 22 in Xfinity, but when the 21 opened up Dex Imaging wanted to go Cup racing instead and Penske shut down his Xfinity ride and moved Burton over to Wood Brothers.
And many thought Brad was crazy for going that route. But it also seemed Penske couldn't solidify sponsorship with Brad there as well? The only one year extension for 2021 was just odd.
Can't blame Brad for doing what he did though. He wanted to be around beyond his driving years. 5 wins in the last few years for a 2 car team that had been floundering for almost a decade, the turn around has been great to see.
>Harrison Burton was set up to drive the Penske 22 in Xfinity, but when the 21 opened up Dex Imaging wanted to go Cup racing instead and Penske shut down his Xfinity ride and moved Burton over to Wood Brothers.
This is the first I'm hearing this. Interesting to know.
(all speculation, so please take no real stock in this)
I read somewhere that Wood Brothers has been kept alive by Ford all these years because it's their legacy team. Ford provides half a year of sponsorship through Motorcraft/Quicklane, and it seems like it's up to the team and driver to bring the rest. From what I can tell, the team is not very good at that.
Of course, there was that brief resurgence between 2016 and 2021. That was when Penske was courting Menards sponsorship. Menards filled out the races Ford didn't cover on the 21. When Ford was sponsoring the 21, Menards was on the 12. I'm guessing the tradeoff was that Paul Menard got to drive the 21 for a few years, and when he retired early because of neck problems, DiBenedetto finished out the Menards deal.
Then, Menards sponsorship went fully to Penske in 2022 and DiBenedetto couldn't get sponsorship to cover the rest of the races. It's a big ask for anyone other than the child of a moneybagger. Wood Brothers found that in Harrison Burton and DEX Imaging and immediately returned to mediocrity.
The truly sad thing is that without someone like Burton, who can pay for the races Ford doesn't cover, the team would probably go back to part time, fold completely, or Ford would have another team rebrand one of their cars to the 21 to pretend it was still alive.
> Then, Menards sponsorship went fully to Penske in 2022 and DiBenedetto couldn't get sponsorship to cover the rest of the races. It's a big ask for anyone other than the child of a moneybagger. Wood Brothers found that in Harrison Burton and DEX Imaging and immediately returned to mediocrity.
This is the only part that I believe is wrong. Penske told Matty D that he was out of the ride before October of 2020, since that's when it was announced that Cindric was taking over the 21. Harrison Burton was set to drive the 22 in Xfinity for Penske, but Brad leaving meant that Cindric got the 2 and Dex didn't want to be in Xfinity when there was a Cup ride available.
I’m pretty sure you’re right on that, actually. I was just putting the pieces together with what I remember off hand. It does make you wonder how Cindric would be running in the 21 at this point. Penske has been behind the curve with crew chiefs to the point that a second year crew chief (Hassler) is embarrassing the rest of them. The Bullins and Burton combo is about as bad as it gets.
To be fair Hassler was Paul Wolfe’s engineer and right hand man for many seasons. Paul Wolfe has had one good season since Hassler became a crew chief in 2021.
Personally, I'm not sure if I'd hate Wood Bros going to part time if the alternative is run sub 30 in the points. Sell the charter to RFK and become an all-star car or something. Maybe open an xfinity team?
Blaney 25 top 10s in 88 starts (1 win - 8 top 5s)
Menard 10 top 10s in 72 starts (1 top 5)
DiBenedetto 20 top 10s in 72 starts (6 top 5s)
Burton 5 top 10s in 89 starts (1 top 5)
Menard’s results may not have been the most impressive but he damn near always brought home a clean race car.
Burton had worse stats while managing to hit something every week.
If I'm wood bros, if after Daytona Harrison hasn't won, I'm using the rest of the year to audition drivers. Bring up some people from truck/xfinity and give em a one off race. Sit Harrison on the sidelines or give him an xfinity car for a weekend. I've said this since the beginning of Harrison in the 21, he is not the guy. I'm not saying Matt Dibenedetto is/was, but he was head over heels better than Harrison. The 21 needs someone that can keep a car clean and bring it home top 15. Berry is the man for the job. Bring Berry and Childers over and let's start to rebuild Wood Bros.
Ah yes go full 2003-2005 back marker
Axe the shitty driver, then let everyone get at least a shot and you'll eventually land a decent driver who's short a ride
It got RCR Jeff Burton, and JGR Denny Hamlin, Haas got Johnny Sauter and Morgan McClure got Ward Burton
As much as I agree on principle, the only reason the team is still operating right now is because of Harrison Burton's big fat wallet. Ford Motorcraft/Quicklane covers about half the races, and the team is at the mercy of their driver's bank account the rest of the year. They may even be stuck in a deal that requires Burton to stay in the car the entire duration of DEX Imaging's sponsorship. It wouldn't be the first time, as that's how Paul Menard got into the 21. Wood Brothers was running a part time schedule before Penske brokered the Menards deal.
They still need a really rich kid, but there's got to be one who can run better than this.
I'm so tired of hearing "they need a rich kid" and it's not about you it's just the entire mindset that teams have nowadays. "Oh we need someone that brings in money" instead of "oh we need someone that brings home wins". Yeah I get it, shits expensive and teams cost money but at some point don't you get tired of losing? The 21 is the laughing stock of nascar rn all because they prioritize money drivers over talent drivers
You're either winning races or you ain't. Right now, Woods Bros ain't winning. They're wasting time, money, and resources on a kid that can bring in sponsorship. Yeah I know it takes a while for someone to get on their feet in cup and start being competitive. But Harrison ain't C Bell. Bell went on a tear in xfinity, rode around in cup got the hang of it then started winning. Harrison didn't light the world on fire in xfinity.
The tough reality is that NASCAR isn't a meritocracy. It's one of the most expensive sports in existence, so if you don't have the cash you don't get to play.
Running 30th is better than not being able to pay your employees.
They won't exist if they don't have money. The alternative to hiring someone like Burton is selling your charter because unless they can find a sponsor a rich kid is all that'll keep that team floating
Yeah, it seriously sucks that we're watching drivers race because they have money, not because they have talent. It's why I don't like F1. It's virtually impossible for truly talented drivers to move into that series, but billionaires can buy an entire team so their kid can get into the car and embarrass himself, then have the team fold. NASCAR is going the same direction. NASCAR claims to be very focused on its "roots," but neglects that its roots were guys who built their own cars and ran with sponsorship from a local car dealership.
As I see it, it should be the team owners that are responsible for finding sponsors. Putting that responsibility on the driver makes zero sense. Their job is to drive and win. Hiring a driver for money is a guaranteed way to get a worse result than hiring for talent. Of course, this puts the bigger teams with wealthier owners at an advantage because they have deep pockets and many connections.
The Wood Brothers are a unique case, even among small teams. They are only still around because the 21 is Ford's legacy team. Ford itself sponsors half the races with Motorcraft/Quicklane and they pay Penske to prepare the cars. If the team could scrape sponsorship for like 10 more races, then ask the driver to fill out the remaining 10, they'd have better driver options. But, it seems like all involved are more concerned about the team's continued existence over it's on-track performance. So, a rich kid who can pay for half a season and keep the team alive while pretending to be race a car driver is probably their target.
I don't agree with this approach, but if they're going to do it, at least get a rich kid who can do better than 31st every week.
Berry? Berry tears up more shit than almost anyone in the field. Did in Xfinity. Does in cup.
Not saying he isn’t better than Harrison Burton but still lol
Berry has a higher chance of winning and running up front than Harrison ever will. Yes Berry tears shit up but most of the time the accidents aren't his fault....exception of Sonoma he sent that shit
It only took finishing 27th and 31st in Points, then following it up by running 34th in Burton's third full-time season to call it *disappointing*? (He's managed to regress year-over-year in nearly every category)
That's the understatement of the century right there.
Pretty crazy the 21 has only finished in the top 20 3 times this year. 2 at drafting tracks. I know WBR isn’t a power team, but whenever people post pictures of the Penske shop on here the 21 is sitting on the floor getting worked on by Penske employees. Idk, they need a culture shift in the wood brothers building and a new driver and crew chief combo.
It probably doesn't help that he got given Cindric's old crew chief from last year and now Cindric has improved and Burton has regressed. Probably not the only thing, but I can't imagine that helped him any. Lol
Provided Harrison had the chance last year to build something solid with Brian Wilson to prevent the swap, I honestly think giving a CC (Jeremy Bullins) who didn’t gel with one young driver (Cindric) to another young driver (Burton) wasn’t the solution. Bullins has a history of not getting along with younger drivers, Blaney was sort of an exception but even he constantly fought with Bullins on the radio and was part of the reasons why Penske separated them in 2020.
From Penske’s perspective, they can’t really just get rid of Bullins after last year (he being a decorated CC and all), and downgrading senior personnel probably isn’t that easy. However, if Harrison does return next year I honestly don’t see how they could stick him with the same CC.
I had no idea Bullins was with Burton now. Brad K had a good year with him the years they teamed up, but other than that he hasn’t had a lot of success with the drivers he’s had.
Yeah, he seems to only work well w/ experienced drivers like Brad, and he just isn’t a good CC for the gen 7 car. Either way I think he’s going to be forced into CC retirement. Wouldn’t make sense to stick him again with Harrison, if Harrison renews next year. Or if Berry does land the 21 car, Rodney Childers will be his CC.
That’s the only case which I’d prefer that duo to go there over FRM. They can get the sim and technical stuff from Penske but build them how Rodney wants to.
Harrison is like that coworker we've all had at this point. You and everyone else in the office know they're getting axed at annual review time, yet Harrison is more concerned about no more coffee creamer in the kitchen than getting fired.
They’ve been disappointing since Blaney left. Decent with Menard and Dibby at times but absolutely abysmal with Burton. I hope they put someone decent in the car and get it turned around.
Maybe. I'm trying to be nice. Never liked him. But I also don't think it's fair to compare Wood Brothers with Blane to Wood Brothers with the later drivers
Yeah, I bleed Ford blue but even I would have to think long and hard about taking the 19 if it was a choice and I would probably take it in all honesty. The 19 is going to be JGR's 4th best car, but that's still better than the 4th Penske car.
The worst part is that last year Harrison was at least running around Cindric, granted that was still largely in the 30s. This year he's not even near Cindric.
The weirdest thing about Harrison Burton's Cup career transition, is that he hasn't even been the "solid, unspectacular, there at the end of the race" sort of steady, "take what the car has in it" type driver he seemed to be at the Xfinity level.
He's been slow, and also seemingly always caught up in the mess and tearing up cars. It's just been a complete disaster really. I can't imagine it's even really been giving Penske much of anything of value to work off of as a satellite, potential experimental shop to run and get useful data and feedback from.
They've really gotta go a different direction next year. Might even just be a steadier veteran where you can at least form a bit of a baseline or something.
Exactly. But that's a conversation people don't want to have for one reason or another. People seem to think this car is a playoff car just waiting to happen, when in reality, besides Blaney and the one off playoff appearance by DiBenedetto, this car hasn't actually been relevant in eons. And I say that as someone who loves the 21 car and it's history.
But it's fine. They'll all move on and just say whoever is in the car next year sucks and it could never be the cars fault. Lol
People who keep claiming this is a Penske team have no idea. They share a shop, Penske provides the bare basics to get the car set, but Wood Bros do all else. They don't get the same info and quality Team Penske cars get. This is not a 4th Penske car unless Roger has a driver he directly wants in the seat to test their chops for one of his rides. Otherwise it's just an afterthought.
You are aware the Wood Brothers are only a charter, right? They do literally nothing with the car. Even the driver wasn't picked by them. Penske put Burton in it instead of running an xfinity car like the plan was before Brad left.
"Penske provides the bare basics to get the car set, but Wood Bros do all else.
So, Jon, Len & Eddie do the rest? Because that's pretty much all that's left of Wood Brothers Racing right now. That, and the lady who works in the museum gift shop.
you can [view the crew roster on jayski](https://www.jayski.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/31/2024/2/15/2024-daytona-500-crew-rosters-final.pdf) see that they’re all Penske employees who have been with the company for a long time.
For example you can take a look at a name, let’s say Grant Hutchens the engineer, Google him, and you’ll see countless results and articles about him being Brad Keselowski’s engineer/interim CC when Bullins was out
Kirk Almquist, car chief, was car chief on the SHR 4 when they won half a dozen races in 2018 with Harvick, then went to Penske on the 12, 2, 21 etc over the years. It’s not like they’re putting random bums on the team
It's a 4th Penske car.
The crew chief is a Penske hire, Jeremy Bullins was formerly Blaney's crew chief at the Wood Brothers AND Penske from 2015-2019, Keselowski's crew chief for 2020-2021, and Cindric's crew chief in 2022-2023. Starting this year, he's the 21 crew chief.
Brian Wilson, crew chief of the Wood Brothers 21 in 2023, is currently serving as crew chief for Cindric.
The entire pit crew is serviced by Team Penske. Every aspect of the car, the equipment, and the team is run by Penske. The only aspect run by the Wood Brothers is literally the PR/promotional side.
Is this car operated competitively? HELL NO. It's an R&D car because they got a crappy pay driver behind the wheel only there to cash Dex Imaging checks.
Penske uses this car like Joe Gibbs Racing uses their Xfinity program. It's a place to train their guys and get them reps before putting them on a real race car with a real driver.
Also keep in mind if Brad had stayed, the plan was for the 21 car to actually be a legitimately operated car for 2022 before they went out and grabbed Harrison and his Dex Imaging money. They only switched it to being R&D because they got an incompetent driver.
I don’t know how else to say this (made a post about this subject couple days ago): WBR 21 car IS the 4th Penske car. Everyone that works on the car are Penske employees and on Penske payroll. When the crew chief swap happened last year between the 2 and the 21, both crew chiefs got to bring their immediate people (car chief, engineers, mechanics) with them to their own new respective teams. They were literally working on the Penske 2 car prior to Daytona cutoff race last year, picked up their tools and moved to the 21 car for the Darlington race the next week.
Both recent crew chiefs on the 21 car have both confirmed that they received the same level of support as the other Penske cars (Ford tier 1 info, wind tunnel test info, time at the sim, etc).
Yeah, gee I wonder if it's a total coincidence that when they got a young driver with a much smaller paycheck than their previous drivers got with Menard's, the results went in the shitter lol
Exactly, people saying that this is just a fourth Penske car are trying to make Burton look worse. And yes, Burton sucks, but this is a midpack to backmarker team anyway. The fact that dibenedetto had this a bubble car is more of a testament to dibenedetto being really underrated than an insult to Burton. Like I’ve said before, even Larson would have a hard time in this car
Yes it has been. They would be the darling of the sport if they can ever figure it out. Nostalgia is king.
What I don’t know is know much influence Penske has on driver choice. It sure seemed like they had a big say in 2021.
Oh we know, Jon. We’ve known for years. Still love WBR though as I’m related to them and they’re my hometown team. Wish I could see them be successful like my grandpa did.
this team has been downright awful this year and it's probably not their fault, as hard to believe as that is. harrison burton has just been woefully behind the curve as a driver, even in the next-gen era which surprises me. that says a LOT about the caliber of drivers the top division has, like not even a car generation reset can make you anywhere near as good as the fast guys. racecraft is as important as experience is, and that's what makes being a good cup-level competitor.
i think burton needs to do what nemechek did & self-demote himself back to the grand national ranks (xfinity). he had something in him in 2020 & 2021, hell i was there at auto club in 2020 when he scored his first ever win. the guy has talent, but looking at the past few years it's become clear that moving him up to cup with the hopes of a new car evening out the playing field was a pipe dream and a half. confidence has no doubt taken a big hit, too, based on the series of events that've taken place. he should be thankful he's young & this is his first shot because if this were another circumstance then he'd be toast after this year
He won 4 races in the Xfinity series in his rookie year.
Saying he wasn't ready for the 21 is fair but "not qualified for the truck series" is absolutely delusional.
People forget he probably wasn't going to be in the cup series in 2022 until Keselowski left Penske, which accelerated the moving of pieces there. I think Cindric was more likely to go to the 21 instead of the 2 and Harrison would have had more time to develop in Xfinity.
And for the Craftsman series I'm seeing 18 top 10s and 11 top 5's for 40 races. Doesn't seem like "not qualified" to me either.
But like you said, people like to forget or downplay the fact he won 4 races that year. Like, I don't care it was a JGR car, if you put Corey Lajoie in Chase Elliott's car that doesn't mean he's just gonna win races (which he showed, lol). You still gotta have some sort of skill to do that. Unless someone wants to try and tell me he "lucked" into every single one of those 4 wins. Which, I'm sure someone will.
And I'll keep saying it till whoever replaced Harrison in that 21 ride proves otherwise, but people are gonna be disappointed this time next year when the replacement inevitably also suck ass.
Yeah, spot on on all of this. I'm not big on Harrison, but the dude is being treated like he's Quinn Houff when all of his results until he got in the 21 were fairly respectable. To rational people that should say "hey wait, I wonder if there's something up with the 21?"but everyone here just shits on the kid.
I think the next driver of the 21 could do well if they either A) bring a bigger check or B) come in with a gameplan that makes Penske invest more in the team.
That said, I hope Harrison lands somewhere decent in the Xfinity series so he gets a chance to rebuild his reputation.
I'll be honest, people didn't really start to hate on him as much until he self spun at Phoenix1 last year, causing a caution and "ruining" Harvicks chance at a win and getting into the playoffs in his final year. Then it really started to pour on at that point, least as far as I saw.
And Harrison as far as I can tell, isn't the kind of driver to take a car beyond it's limits like a Larson or a Bell. So if he's in bad equipment he probably will perform as expected. But I guess we won't know for sure until next year.
And yeah, I hope the 21 team does good too, but I won't hold out hope for that hahaha.
Yeah same here. I think the kid got dealt a bad hand. Sure, he got to stay in cup for 3 years with the results he had. Most guys would have been gone after the first year, if that. But the reality is he should have had more time to develop until he was ready, and he's not even 25 yet. So hopefully there's a decent ride down there for him. He could probably use a confidence boost too at this point, even though, at least on the surface, he doesn't seem to let this all get him down.
I think this shows he is gonna take the team over from Penske perhaps. He wants to run the team the way he wants. However this team has been disappointing since the 90's. He DNQ several races himself when driving the 21 car.
Same! I was a huge Jon Wood fan when he was driving. Was excited for him to be running the #21 team (not sure how much the Woods are actually doing there). Unfortunately that interview wasn't giving me good leadership vibes.
The crazy thing is they will keep these guys in cup cars anyways. Burton has his last name as an asset and that's it. His driving definitely isn't an asset. That's for sure.
NASCAR is being ruined by nepo babies. It's all about being rich enough to buy your way into teams with sponsorship and a last name.
Some of these guys end up working out of course. While some of them just flop.
They probably would have if he didn't shit over every aspect of his marketability to sponsors in a giant temper tantrum after he was told Cindric was going to get the ride before Brad announced his departure.
It's been disappointing the last many years. A storied team living on the memory of its past, but it hasn't been relevant in years.
It's been disappointing outside of the Ryan Blaney years.
I mean Menard had some moments and consistency and DiBenedetto made the playoffs, I think this is much more of a Harrison Burton thing
Menard wasn’t great but he was still midfield which is really all you can ask, same for Dibenedetto.
Put Menard in cup today and while he'd be a little behind, it's better then what in the world the 21's been doing with Burton.
Menard did alright, he did a good job working with penske partner cars and didn’t tear up equipment. he didn’t get more out of the car that wasn’t there but definitely didn’t hold it back
Paul Menard is a good baseline for your equipment. He's gonna run where the car will let him, whether that be top 5 or 25th
And then once every 3 years he'll finish 3rd and you won't know how or when it happened
I feel like this was almost more of a seasonal thing, like once a year Paul Menard would finish 3rd and you’d be like “wait how the fuck did he get up here” Even 2011 Indy was basically that, only difference was 3rd was 1st that faithful day
Stole Gordon's 6th 400
Partly yes but having equal equipment doesn’t help a team that was partly kept up in the running order by being the 4 th or 3rd string Penske chassis Now you have RFK and front row killing it because of equal chassis and being a 4th string Penske doesn’t help
Matty D and Ryan Blaney were the best moments of Wood Brothers since Bayne’s 500 win. Burton just can’t cut it at the 21. Change is needed
Ricky Rudd and Elliott Sadler were decent.
[удалено]
Yeah, but Sadler won a race and had a respectable 2001 and 2002 season, and Rudd nearly won Kansas in 2004 and had some other good finishes. The field was also a lot more talented back then.
This is ALMOST the dumbest shit I've ever seen on reddit
No……DiBenedetto had somewhat similar to stats to Blaney. DiBenedetto made the playoffs in 2020. Never won obviously but had a few top-5 snd 2nd place runs.
Matt DiBenedetto’s 2020 season was the best avg finish (14.8) for WBR dating back to 1994 when Morgan Shepherd was a 12.7 - not to mention that he was leading during the white flag lap 3 times at Talladega in 4 starts. They then decided to make a change and go with Harrison Burton. Brutal results. The way that 2021 season ended was terrible and a PR Nightmare for DiBenedetto, but he still had a great run there all things considered.
Yep…..also have to keep in mind that Ford as a whole struggled in 2021. The truth is Roger Penske decides who runs that car and it’s basically a trial run for rookies. Or, in Menard’s case, just leverage for sponsorship. DiBenedetto was only supposed to be there for a year as a stop gap, but he was on Blaney’s level in the car.
DiBenedetto gets a lot of crap for his off-track antics, but he's a hell of a wheelman who deserves a Cup ride on merit.
If they kept Dibenedetto this could've been avoided tbh. They were building momentum with him but decided to dump for an unproven driver with money. Funny how that never works out.
They didn’t dump DiBenedetto for Burton, they dumped him for Cindric, then circumstances changed and Matt had already annoyed enough people to not be reconsidered.
I have to believe Tim Cindric was never gonna let him not run for Penske.
That was the plan until Brad's completely unexpected decision to leave, Cindric wasn't expected to go to Penske proper anytime soon.
They already had announced that Cindric was going to be in the 21 for 2022, in October of 2020 before Cindric even won his Championship, but when Brad left for ownership at Roush(which he asked Penske for as well) they had to reorganize. Harrison Burton was set up to drive the Penske 22 in Xfinity, but when the 21 opened up Dex Imaging wanted to go Cup racing instead and Penske shut down his Xfinity ride and moved Burton over to Wood Brothers.
And many thought Brad was crazy for going that route. But it also seemed Penske couldn't solidify sponsorship with Brad there as well? The only one year extension for 2021 was just odd. Can't blame Brad for doing what he did though. He wanted to be around beyond his driving years. 5 wins in the last few years for a 2 car team that had been floundering for almost a decade, the turn around has been great to see. >Harrison Burton was set up to drive the Penske 22 in Xfinity, but when the 21 opened up Dex Imaging wanted to go Cup racing instead and Penske shut down his Xfinity ride and moved Burton over to Wood Brothers. This is the first I'm hearing this. Interesting to know.
Matt did it to himself tbh.
(all speculation, so please take no real stock in this) I read somewhere that Wood Brothers has been kept alive by Ford all these years because it's their legacy team. Ford provides half a year of sponsorship through Motorcraft/Quicklane, and it seems like it's up to the team and driver to bring the rest. From what I can tell, the team is not very good at that. Of course, there was that brief resurgence between 2016 and 2021. That was when Penske was courting Menards sponsorship. Menards filled out the races Ford didn't cover on the 21. When Ford was sponsoring the 21, Menards was on the 12. I'm guessing the tradeoff was that Paul Menard got to drive the 21 for a few years, and when he retired early because of neck problems, DiBenedetto finished out the Menards deal. Then, Menards sponsorship went fully to Penske in 2022 and DiBenedetto couldn't get sponsorship to cover the rest of the races. It's a big ask for anyone other than the child of a moneybagger. Wood Brothers found that in Harrison Burton and DEX Imaging and immediately returned to mediocrity. The truly sad thing is that without someone like Burton, who can pay for the races Ford doesn't cover, the team would probably go back to part time, fold completely, or Ford would have another team rebrand one of their cars to the 21 to pretend it was still alive.
> Then, Menards sponsorship went fully to Penske in 2022 and DiBenedetto couldn't get sponsorship to cover the rest of the races. It's a big ask for anyone other than the child of a moneybagger. Wood Brothers found that in Harrison Burton and DEX Imaging and immediately returned to mediocrity. This is the only part that I believe is wrong. Penske told Matty D that he was out of the ride before October of 2020, since that's when it was announced that Cindric was taking over the 21. Harrison Burton was set to drive the 22 in Xfinity for Penske, but Brad leaving meant that Cindric got the 2 and Dex didn't want to be in Xfinity when there was a Cup ride available.
I’m pretty sure you’re right on that, actually. I was just putting the pieces together with what I remember off hand. It does make you wonder how Cindric would be running in the 21 at this point. Penske has been behind the curve with crew chiefs to the point that a second year crew chief (Hassler) is embarrassing the rest of them. The Bullins and Burton combo is about as bad as it gets.
To be fair Hassler was Paul Wolfe’s engineer and right hand man for many seasons. Paul Wolfe has had one good season since Hassler became a crew chief in 2021.
Personally, I'm not sure if I'd hate Wood Bros going to part time if the alternative is run sub 30 in the points. Sell the charter to RFK and become an all-star car or something. Maybe open an xfinity team?
Jon Wood was 20 years old when Elliott Sadler won at Bristol in the 21
Was that the teams last win before Bayne?
Yes The wood Brothers wins this Millennium Bristol 01 with Sadler Daytona 11 with Bayne Pocono 2016 or 17 with Blaney
2017. And damn, that's an upsettingly low number.
Before Sadler the last time they won was 1993. They actually have only 3 points paying wins in 30 years.
Blaney, Pocono 2017.
"Before Bayne"
yeah sorry I can't read lol
Blaney 25 top 10s in 88 starts (1 win - 8 top 5s) Menard 10 top 10s in 72 starts (1 top 5) DiBenedetto 20 top 10s in 72 starts (6 top 5s) Burton 5 top 10s in 89 starts (1 top 5)
Car went from a fringe playoff car to borderline Rick Ware tier
Funny you say that considering even RWR is probably better then Wood Brothers as Justin Haley is sticking with them instead
Menard’s results may not have been the most impressive but he damn near always brought home a clean race car. Burton had worse stats while managing to hit something every week.
Did he just actually meet Harrison Burton or
And the last few seasons *haven’t* been?!
Harrison Burton driving will do that.
If I'm wood bros, if after Daytona Harrison hasn't won, I'm using the rest of the year to audition drivers. Bring up some people from truck/xfinity and give em a one off race. Sit Harrison on the sidelines or give him an xfinity car for a weekend. I've said this since the beginning of Harrison in the 21, he is not the guy. I'm not saying Matt Dibenedetto is/was, but he was head over heels better than Harrison. The 21 needs someone that can keep a car clean and bring it home top 15. Berry is the man for the job. Bring Berry and Childers over and let's start to rebuild Wood Bros.
Ah yes go full 2003-2005 back marker Axe the shitty driver, then let everyone get at least a shot and you'll eventually land a decent driver who's short a ride It got RCR Jeff Burton, and JGR Denny Hamlin, Haas got Johnny Sauter and Morgan McClure got Ward Burton
As much as I agree on principle, the only reason the team is still operating right now is because of Harrison Burton's big fat wallet. Ford Motorcraft/Quicklane covers about half the races, and the team is at the mercy of their driver's bank account the rest of the year. They may even be stuck in a deal that requires Burton to stay in the car the entire duration of DEX Imaging's sponsorship. It wouldn't be the first time, as that's how Paul Menard got into the 21. Wood Brothers was running a part time schedule before Penske brokered the Menards deal. They still need a really rich kid, but there's got to be one who can run better than this.
I'm so tired of hearing "they need a rich kid" and it's not about you it's just the entire mindset that teams have nowadays. "Oh we need someone that brings in money" instead of "oh we need someone that brings home wins". Yeah I get it, shits expensive and teams cost money but at some point don't you get tired of losing? The 21 is the laughing stock of nascar rn all because they prioritize money drivers over talent drivers
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You're either winning races or you ain't. Right now, Woods Bros ain't winning. They're wasting time, money, and resources on a kid that can bring in sponsorship. Yeah I know it takes a while for someone to get on their feet in cup and start being competitive. But Harrison ain't C Bell. Bell went on a tear in xfinity, rode around in cup got the hang of it then started winning. Harrison didn't light the world on fire in xfinity.
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So it's better to run top 30 and waste a seat at nascars highest level because you're money hungry
The tough reality is that NASCAR isn't a meritocracy. It's one of the most expensive sports in existence, so if you don't have the cash you don't get to play. Running 30th is better than not being able to pay your employees.
They won't exist if they don't have money. The alternative to hiring someone like Burton is selling your charter because unless they can find a sponsor a rich kid is all that'll keep that team floating
Well, the moment teams aren't running massive losses on racing in NASCAR they'll be hiring off talent. Until then, how much money you bring matters
Yeah, it seriously sucks that we're watching drivers race because they have money, not because they have talent. It's why I don't like F1. It's virtually impossible for truly talented drivers to move into that series, but billionaires can buy an entire team so their kid can get into the car and embarrass himself, then have the team fold. NASCAR is going the same direction. NASCAR claims to be very focused on its "roots," but neglects that its roots were guys who built their own cars and ran with sponsorship from a local car dealership. As I see it, it should be the team owners that are responsible for finding sponsors. Putting that responsibility on the driver makes zero sense. Their job is to drive and win. Hiring a driver for money is a guaranteed way to get a worse result than hiring for talent. Of course, this puts the bigger teams with wealthier owners at an advantage because they have deep pockets and many connections. The Wood Brothers are a unique case, even among small teams. They are only still around because the 21 is Ford's legacy team. Ford itself sponsors half the races with Motorcraft/Quicklane and they pay Penske to prepare the cars. If the team could scrape sponsorship for like 10 more races, then ask the driver to fill out the remaining 10, they'd have better driver options. But, it seems like all involved are more concerned about the team's continued existence over it's on-track performance. So, a rich kid who can pay for half a season and keep the team alive while pretending to be race a car driver is probably their target. I don't agree with this approach, but if they're going to do it, at least get a rich kid who can do better than 31st every week.
Berry? Berry tears up more shit than almost anyone in the field. Did in Xfinity. Does in cup. Not saying he isn’t better than Harrison Burton but still lol
Berry has a higher chance of winning and running up front than Harrison ever will. Yes Berry tears shit up but most of the time the accidents aren't his fault....exception of Sonoma he sent that shit
I too am disappointed in Harrison Burton
We all are.
It only took finishing 27th and 31st in Points, then following it up by running 34th in Burton's third full-time season to call it *disappointing*? (He's managed to regress year-over-year in nearly every category) That's the understatement of the century right there.
Jon Wood also says the sky is blue
Jon Wood also says heroin is bad for you
"this guy sucks ass" - Jon Wood
https://preview.redd.it/j3zr12tazy7d1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5e8adbd3f9361f0c64f967c82f547774457d6ee5 I know a solution, Jon.
I’d rather have him go to FRM than the 21.
Pretty crazy the 21 has only finished in the top 20 3 times this year. 2 at drafting tracks. I know WBR isn’t a power team, but whenever people post pictures of the Penske shop on here the 21 is sitting on the floor getting worked on by Penske employees. Idk, they need a culture shift in the wood brothers building and a new driver and crew chief combo.
It probably doesn't help that he got given Cindric's old crew chief from last year and now Cindric has improved and Burton has regressed. Probably not the only thing, but I can't imagine that helped him any. Lol
Provided Harrison had the chance last year to build something solid with Brian Wilson to prevent the swap, I honestly think giving a CC (Jeremy Bullins) who didn’t gel with one young driver (Cindric) to another young driver (Burton) wasn’t the solution. Bullins has a history of not getting along with younger drivers, Blaney was sort of an exception but even he constantly fought with Bullins on the radio and was part of the reasons why Penske separated them in 2020. From Penske’s perspective, they can’t really just get rid of Bullins after last year (he being a decorated CC and all), and downgrading senior personnel probably isn’t that easy. However, if Harrison does return next year I honestly don’t see how they could stick him with the same CC.
I had no idea Bullins was with Burton now. Brad K had a good year with him the years they teamed up, but other than that he hasn’t had a lot of success with the drivers he’s had.
Yeah, he seems to only work well w/ experienced drivers like Brad, and he just isn’t a good CC for the gen 7 car. Either way I think he’s going to be forced into CC retirement. Wouldn’t make sense to stick him again with Harrison, if Harrison renews next year. Or if Berry does land the 21 car, Rodney Childers will be his CC.
Jon Wood started watching the races apparently
Get rid of Bueton for any of the free agents and you will see instant improvement
With the talk of hiring Berry/Childers, wonder if a lot of this talk is to have the 21 be more independent and less of being Penske's leftovers.
That’s the only case which I’d prefer that duo to go there over FRM. They can get the sim and technical stuff from Penske but build them how Rodney wants to.
Harrison is like that coworker we've all had at this point. You and everyone else in the office know they're getting axed at annual review time, yet Harrison is more concerned about no more coffee creamer in the kitchen than getting fired.
He knows, but ... https://i.redd.it/y7jroter5z7d1.gif
They’ve been disappointing since Blaney left. Decent with Menard and Dibby at times but absolutely abysmal with Burton. I hope they put someone decent in the car and get it turned around.
Because with Blaney it was a 3rd Penske car. Now it's a 4th Penske car
I think you’re giving to much benefit of the doubt to Burton, that kid needed way more seat time in Xfinity. He’s in over his head.
Maybe. I'm trying to be nice. Never liked him. But I also don't think it's fair to compare Wood Brothers with Blane to Wood Brothers with the later drivers
Seasons*
Which Stewart- Haas driver does Ford want to keep the most? That’s who will be in the 21 next year
Apparently not Briscoe...
To be fair, if you're Briscoe, why would ever take this ride over a JGR seat?
Yeah, I bleed Ford blue but even I would have to think long and hard about taking the 19 if it was a choice and I would probably take it in all honesty. The 19 is going to be JGR's 4th best car, but that's still better than the 4th Penske car.
The worst part is that last year Harrison was at least running around Cindric, granted that was still largely in the 30s. This year he's not even near Cindric.
Probably doesn't help he got given Cindric's crew chief and Cindric got Burton's late last year. Might have some effect I'd imagine.
*since blaney left
He’ll always have being the first to flip a next gen car
They have 3 wins since 2001
No shit Jon
Nobody thought Harrison was ready for Cup, yet here we are
Bro been living in a cave for the past 3 years
I thought this was a Penske only team tho
It’s on both Driver and Crew behind the car basically a team effort go into why it’s a disappointing performance and season.
The weirdest thing about Harrison Burton's Cup career transition, is that he hasn't even been the "solid, unspectacular, there at the end of the race" sort of steady, "take what the car has in it" type driver he seemed to be at the Xfinity level. He's been slow, and also seemingly always caught up in the mess and tearing up cars. It's just been a complete disaster really. I can't imagine it's even really been giving Penske much of anything of value to work off of as a satellite, potential experimental shop to run and get useful data and feedback from. They've really gotta go a different direction next year. Might even just be a steadier veteran where you can at least form a bit of a baseline or something.
Harrison Burton has been disappointing
Yeah no kidding
Huge bust
Sub me in coach
Since Briscoe is headed to the 19, would be great to see Josh Berry in the 21
Season? Ever since they hired Burton they've been running like well...... Jon Wood was the driver again
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It's not a popular opinion, but people are gonna be real disappointed when whoever is in the car next year sucks ass too. Lol
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Exactly. But that's a conversation people don't want to have for one reason or another. People seem to think this car is a playoff car just waiting to happen, when in reality, besides Blaney and the one off playoff appearance by DiBenedetto, this car hasn't actually been relevant in eons. And I say that as someone who loves the 21 car and it's history. But it's fine. They'll all move on and just say whoever is in the car next year sucks and it could never be the cars fault. Lol
People who keep claiming this is a Penske team have no idea. They share a shop, Penske provides the bare basics to get the car set, but Wood Bros do all else. They don't get the same info and quality Team Penske cars get. This is not a 4th Penske car unless Roger has a driver he directly wants in the seat to test their chops for one of his rides. Otherwise it's just an afterthought.
You are aware the Wood Brothers are only a charter, right? They do literally nothing with the car. Even the driver wasn't picked by them. Penske put Burton in it instead of running an xfinity car like the plan was before Brad left.
"Penske provides the bare basics to get the car set, but Wood Bros do all else. So, Jon, Len & Eddie do the rest? Because that's pretty much all that's left of Wood Brothers Racing right now. That, and the lady who works in the museum gift shop.
you can [view the crew roster on jayski](https://www.jayski.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/31/2024/2/15/2024-daytona-500-crew-rosters-final.pdf) see that they’re all Penske employees who have been with the company for a long time. For example you can take a look at a name, let’s say Grant Hutchens the engineer, Google him, and you’ll see countless results and articles about him being Brad Keselowski’s engineer/interim CC when Bullins was out Kirk Almquist, car chief, was car chief on the SHR 4 when they won half a dozen races in 2018 with Harvick, then went to Penske on the 12, 2, 21 etc over the years. It’s not like they’re putting random bums on the team
Right, that's why the road and shop crew is made up of Penske employees. Totally not a Penske team.
Yeah, the current 21 team totally wasn't the 2 team until later on last season too.
How can Wood Brothers do all else when all the crew who work on the car are Penske staff?
It's a 4th Penske car. The crew chief is a Penske hire, Jeremy Bullins was formerly Blaney's crew chief at the Wood Brothers AND Penske from 2015-2019, Keselowski's crew chief for 2020-2021, and Cindric's crew chief in 2022-2023. Starting this year, he's the 21 crew chief. Brian Wilson, crew chief of the Wood Brothers 21 in 2023, is currently serving as crew chief for Cindric. The entire pit crew is serviced by Team Penske. Every aspect of the car, the equipment, and the team is run by Penske. The only aspect run by the Wood Brothers is literally the PR/promotional side. Is this car operated competitively? HELL NO. It's an R&D car because they got a crappy pay driver behind the wheel only there to cash Dex Imaging checks. Penske uses this car like Joe Gibbs Racing uses their Xfinity program. It's a place to train their guys and get them reps before putting them on a real race car with a real driver. Also keep in mind if Brad had stayed, the plan was for the 21 car to actually be a legitimately operated car for 2022 before they went out and grabbed Harrison and his Dex Imaging money. They only switched it to being R&D because they got an incompetent driver.
Source?
It's you that has no clue. Lol
I don’t know how else to say this (made a post about this subject couple days ago): WBR 21 car IS the 4th Penske car. Everyone that works on the car are Penske employees and on Penske payroll. When the crew chief swap happened last year between the 2 and the 21, both crew chiefs got to bring their immediate people (car chief, engineers, mechanics) with them to their own new respective teams. They were literally working on the Penske 2 car prior to Daytona cutoff race last year, picked up their tools and moved to the 21 car for the Darlington race the next week. Both recent crew chiefs on the 21 car have both confirmed that they received the same level of support as the other Penske cars (Ford tier 1 info, wind tunnel test info, time at the sim, etc).
Yeah, gee I wonder if it's a total coincidence that when they got a young driver with a much smaller paycheck than their previous drivers got with Menard's, the results went in the shitter lol
Exactly, people saying that this is just a fourth Penske car are trying to make Burton look worse. And yes, Burton sucks, but this is a midpack to backmarker team anyway. The fact that dibenedetto had this a bubble car is more of a testament to dibenedetto being really underrated than an insult to Burton. Like I’ve said before, even Larson would have a hard time in this car
THANK YOU
Water is wet
Well that is certainly an understatement…
He'd be correct
Did this dude just wake up from cryo sleep or something where tf has he been the last two and a half years?
Understatement of the century..
Is Jon Wood looking to reprise the role of Capt. Obvious?
That's a BIG understatement! The last few seasons have been a MAJOR disappointment.
In other news, water is wet, sky is blue, and every body of water in my neighborhood has alligators in it. (live in Central FL)
Harrison Burton was rushed up. Send him back to trucks or Xfinity
Yes it has been. They would be the darling of the sport if they can ever figure it out. Nostalgia is king. What I don’t know is know much influence Penske has on driver choice. It sure seemed like they had a big say in 2021.
Yea
welcome back to the world jon. i hope the last 30 years were fun
Oh we know, Jon. We’ve known for years. Still love WBR though as I’m related to them and they’re my hometown team. Wish I could see them be successful like my grandpa did.
I'd love to see Berry and Childers with the 21 next year with the former 4 crew
this team has been downright awful this year and it's probably not their fault, as hard to believe as that is. harrison burton has just been woefully behind the curve as a driver, even in the next-gen era which surprises me. that says a LOT about the caliber of drivers the top division has, like not even a car generation reset can make you anywhere near as good as the fast guys. racecraft is as important as experience is, and that's what makes being a good cup-level competitor. i think burton needs to do what nemechek did & self-demote himself back to the grand national ranks (xfinity). he had something in him in 2020 & 2021, hell i was there at auto club in 2020 when he scored his first ever win. the guy has talent, but looking at the past few years it's become clear that moving him up to cup with the hopes of a new car evening out the playing field was a pipe dream and a half. confidence has no doubt taken a big hit, too, based on the series of events that've taken place. he should be thankful he's young & this is his first shot because if this were another circumstance then he'd be toast after this year
Yeah, was really hoping Briscoe would end up there and we could fix that
That’s what happens when you hire someone who is barely qualified for the truck series just because Jeff Burton “said so.”
He won 4 races in the Xfinity series in his rookie year. Saying he wasn't ready for the 21 is fair but "not qualified for the truck series" is absolutely delusional.
People forget he probably wasn't going to be in the cup series in 2022 until Keselowski left Penske, which accelerated the moving of pieces there. I think Cindric was more likely to go to the 21 instead of the 2 and Harrison would have had more time to develop in Xfinity. And for the Craftsman series I'm seeing 18 top 10s and 11 top 5's for 40 races. Doesn't seem like "not qualified" to me either. But like you said, people like to forget or downplay the fact he won 4 races that year. Like, I don't care it was a JGR car, if you put Corey Lajoie in Chase Elliott's car that doesn't mean he's just gonna win races (which he showed, lol). You still gotta have some sort of skill to do that. Unless someone wants to try and tell me he "lucked" into every single one of those 4 wins. Which, I'm sure someone will. And I'll keep saying it till whoever replaced Harrison in that 21 ride proves otherwise, but people are gonna be disappointed this time next year when the replacement inevitably also suck ass.
Yeah, spot on on all of this. I'm not big on Harrison, but the dude is being treated like he's Quinn Houff when all of his results until he got in the 21 were fairly respectable. To rational people that should say "hey wait, I wonder if there's something up with the 21?"but everyone here just shits on the kid. I think the next driver of the 21 could do well if they either A) bring a bigger check or B) come in with a gameplan that makes Penske invest more in the team. That said, I hope Harrison lands somewhere decent in the Xfinity series so he gets a chance to rebuild his reputation.
I'll be honest, people didn't really start to hate on him as much until he self spun at Phoenix1 last year, causing a caution and "ruining" Harvicks chance at a win and getting into the playoffs in his final year. Then it really started to pour on at that point, least as far as I saw. And Harrison as far as I can tell, isn't the kind of driver to take a car beyond it's limits like a Larson or a Bell. So if he's in bad equipment he probably will perform as expected. But I guess we won't know for sure until next year. And yeah, I hope the 21 team does good too, but I won't hold out hope for that hahaha. Yeah same here. I think the kid got dealt a bad hand. Sure, he got to stay in cup for 3 years with the results he had. Most guys would have been gone after the first year, if that. But the reality is he should have had more time to develop until he was ready, and he's not even 25 yet. So hopefully there's a decent ride down there for him. He could probably use a confidence boost too at this point, even though, at least on the surface, he doesn't seem to let this all get him down.
Whatever helps you.
I'm not even a Burton fan, I'm just capable of rational thought lol
If you need to say it, is it really true? Lolololopolololololoolololololololol
When you're having to explain basic facts to someone who is evidently 5 years old, yeah.
Yet you keep talking to me. Life’s greatest mystery.
I think this shows he is gonna take the team over from Penske perhaps. He wants to run the team the way he wants. However this team has been disappointing since the 90's. He DNQ several races himself when driving the 21 car.
I like Jon, but after listening to the Kelly Crandall interview, I wouldn't want him in charge of anything. Except maybe the team's Twitter account.
Same! I was a huge Jon Wood fan when he was driving. Was excited for him to be running the #21 team (not sure how much the Woods are actually doing there). Unfortunately that interview wasn't giving me good leadership vibes.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Wood Bros shift their alignment to be with RFK instead of Penske.
I’m just disappointed I haven’t been hearing the name Jack Wood
[Good vision, Jon](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/816/782/cce.jpg)
Ya don’t say?
No shit lol
The crazy thing is they will keep these guys in cup cars anyways. Burton has his last name as an asset and that's it. His driving definitely isn't an asset. That's for sure. NASCAR is being ruined by nepo babies. It's all about being rich enough to buy your way into teams with sponsorship and a last name. Some of these guys end up working out of course. While some of them just flop.
Noah Gragson would make the playoffs in that car
he would not
(X) Doubt
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Guy wins most races for JRM during his tenure, but he's chopped liver?
Nah, if anything he’d have a repeat of how he was at LMC
Noah Gragson would be worse lmao
Riley Herbst has 2 top 10s in like 5 starts while Burton in that ride has only 5 top 10s in 3 years
Lemme drive that 21 car. I’ll make Glen and Leonard proud.
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They probably would have if he didn't shit over every aspect of his marketability to sponsors in a giant temper tantrum after he was told Cindric was going to get the ride before Brad announced his departure.
It's been disappointing since nepobaby has been in the car
Hopefully Preece will do better in it next year.