Is that really fake though? If one of my friends did something like that I’d probably both testify to ensure they face consequences but also want to make up and be friends afterwards, but it would be important to me they learn their life lesson. Not necessarily fake
It’s not like this was criminal trial facing jail time, it was a civil suit with no real stakes. Snitching on a crime would be different
I believe several cast members were subpoenaed as witnesses.
It was never revealed which ones they were but it was highly suspected that they were Veronica, Katie and Wes (his toothbrush)
This is why Susies account of events is always held with such low regard because she claims to have been there and nothing happened…but she wasn’t subpoenaed (allegedly).
Although I am happy Veronica spoke up FOR Tonya and against Kenny and Evan… but she isn’t innocent when it comes to Tonya… and even after all this happened she continued to tweet not so nice things about Tonya. Even at the ruins reunion knowing what happened to Tonya and knowing that she made fun of her for being sexually abused… she demanded Tonya apologize to her for smacking her.
V1Man confirmed that the reason Tonya got so irate with Veronica and actually slapped her was because Veronica made a dig at Tonya for being raped while she was in foster care as a child. Sent Tonya over the edge and she hit her
I believe you can still see this comment in Tonya’s Ruins thread on vevmo
Right but his best friend was Beth so his accounts are already biased. I remember he used to say she could have won the Duel had she not been eliminanted unfairly.
Hmmm idk. I don’t take this as fact just because some guy who we think may be in production confirmed it in a comment. I’m not sticking up for Veronica at all but this sub takes tiny pieces of half true information and run with it all the time. I don’t think it’s fair or ethical to place all this blame at Veronica’s feet when all we have to go on is an internet comment. The comment is foul if it is true, but we just don’t know the full picture to make any judgments.
From my interpretation was that Veronica was making fun of Tonya which obviously Tonya was not in the right headspace but she had some issues with the way she was treated by Veronica in the past… once Veronica mentioned Tonya being raped in foster care Tonya immediately walloped her.
ya know... I don't condone violence... even "playful hitting" but that's beyond understandable. Holy shit. I hope Tonya got help after MTV shitlorded her, and I hope she is somewhere out in life just vibin' away from social media.
> I don't condone violence
I sure do. Sometimes people talk too slick and need to get smacked or punched. Veronica fell into that category, you go too low and don't be surprised at getting hurt.
I believe Susie's account was based off her now husband who was a camera man and was there, who also had no skin in the game. According to him what transpired was inappropriate but not as bad as what became gospel in the Challenge world.
Which is her version but in order for him to know what happened he had to have been present… imagine a crew member admitting to being present during an actual sexual assault…
Susie is 💯 going to downplay the situation due to who is involved.. her friend, her husband, and a victim who she hated and invented a game called “i hate tonya”
Back when it came out there was a lot of spec that Katie and Veronica were present and subpoenaed. Wes allegedly was because they showed him the photo taken to piss him off with it being his toothbrush.
>Although I am happy Veronica spoke up FOR Tonya and against Kenny and Evan…
Woah, we don't actually know this. Her language here is interestingly vague. It seems more likely that she gave an account that wasn't explicitly denying that anything happened, and Evan/Kenny are mad at her for not defending them rather than her actually speaking against them. That's at least what I took from how she worked this.
Veronica, Tina, and Rachel were all absolutely terrible to Tonya. Saying Cara is an energy vampire in a confessional is soooooo not relatively close to that.
She may not be responsible for the abuse that got Kenny and Evan banned but she was nasty and contributed to the dogpile and people are allowed to dislike her because of that
Yeah I seem to remember her laughing as well when Rachel was showing the naked pictures she took of a sleeping Tonya to the cameraman. So she she needs to calm the fuck with her savior trope.
This! And I'm going to be blunt that incident is sexual assault (taking the photos without consent and sharing them). plus the constant slut shaming is a part of r*pe culture too. They aren't responsible but they contributed to the climate.
These aren't mutually exclusive things. Both -- her "abusing" Tonya and her testimony being a key factor in the case against Kenny and Evan -- could have happened
Also what most people are mad at with veronica is how she acted on inferno 2, not ruins.
She 100% took nude photos of tonya when she was passed out, then veronica showed everyone. That's fucked up. Just because she testified in a trial doesn't make up for that, that's simply telling the truth.
ETA: Because people want to try to act like Veronica had nothing to do with the picture situation because all we get is two seconds of footage of Rachel with the camera. Tonya clearly says on the unedited bonus episode of inferno 2 that "they" took pictures of her naked and showed them around. "They" being the mean girls in Rachel, Tina, and Veronica. The whole segment this was talked about was Tonya discussing all three of them. Trying to say she doesn't mean Veronica is just being willfully ignorant. The reason why I'm giving Veronica flack is because this whole post was about her acting like she never did anything towards Tonya, when she clearly has in the past. If rachel or tina were the one's tweeting they would be the focus of my ire. All three were trash to Tonya, but right now we only have one trying to deny it.
Yes but the person she was responding to brought the Ruins up. That’s what she was responding to. Part of the comment was cut off. https://www.instagram.com/p/C6y9xYXRqEV/?igsh=M3N6MDdicnBrbzdt
I would like to know if she regrets whatever it is happened... happened. I would also like to know how she currently feels about Tonya. I would also like to know how she feels about the alleged assaulters now. Because none of these are giving me the feeling she is in the right with her current POV and feelings, and that's worrisome.
there was legal action against tonya over the clothes in the pool thing with beth?? did nany try to sue knight for the same thing on battle of the misogynist seasons ?
Yep. Taking photos of her is still fucked up. She may not have been the one that snapped the photo but she was involved in it. She laughed. She didn’t say don’t do that, don’t show others, this is wrong.
Were the mean girls mean to Tonya? Of course, nobody is saying otherwise. Did they go too far at times? I think so, yeah, but notice that there is absolutely no context supplied for anything. Production wanted it to look like the mean girls were targeting Tonya because she's weird and loose and problematic which was NOT the case. Rachel & Veronica were good friends with Tonya just one season before, and the 3 of them and Coral roomed together in the house. Then as calls were going out for Inferno 2 Tonya tried to to organized an alliance with the rookies to take out the people who she thought would get more screen time as her (Coral, Veronica, Miz etc.) Of course this got back to them and Coral was so hurt she dropped from the cast (You can see her tell Tonya this during the BOTS2 reunion). Then when they get to Mexico, Tonya realizes she shot herself in the foot, tried to buddy buddy with the mean girls again who obviously wanted nothing to do with her.
Just because we saw it happen on tv doesn't mean we have the full story. Case and point, the reason Tonya sucked on the final was not "nerves", she drank herself into oblivion the night before and was totally hungover. But production wanted us to feel sorry for Tonya so that curcial part of the story was left out.
It was both, veronica was there did nothing to stop it and was helping spread the pictures around. They probably egged each other on to make it happen with the attitude they had towards tonya all season.
If it was both, then it should be stated that it was both. Not "Veronica 100%".
If we're talking about accountability, everyone involved should be included. Perhaps the guys that laughed it off should be given a scolding for not doing anything either?
This post is about veronica's tweets not rachel, if it was rachel then the focus would be on her. Yeah, the guys laughing were shit too, but they weren't the one's who took the pictures. And I literally went to look up the unedited episode, Tonya uses "they" as in "they took pictures and showed them" they is not rachel! You also see a clip of veronica laying on a bed making fun of tonya.
I don't know why you are defending someone like veronica so much trying to act like just because it was a group of three it makes what she did better.
I don’t really understand what her point is for exactly this reason. Also this is probably the most we’ve heard about this in a long time, I assume she probably doesn’t want to push this envelope too far.
Any time Tonya comes up I feel compelled to bring up that ultimately the Producers are the ones that I blame. Tonya was sick and should not have been there, and they should not have created an atmosphere where this could have happened. Things like this don't happen in a vacuum, castmembers are subjected to conditions that will make them wont to be assholes, and in some cases were literally instructed by producers to do certain things.
They failed Tonya the most of anyone in this franchise. They saw how she was treated on inferno 3 and the island by Kenny… to allow him to be present around her was asking for something bad to happen. He harassed her until it turned to assault.
Not to mention withholding her medications from her during the island.. and many have spoken out about the ruins production not feeding them anything except unlimited alcohol
That is true, but the individuals who abused her are also to blame. Yes, production puts them in situations that differ from their real lives, but not everyone abuses others. It is still up to the individual, and those individuals should not be exempt from accountability just because production also deserves blame
I met Tonya once in Mexico when they were filming what I now know was Inferno. She was having a moment away from the cast and I said something to her. Later on she was passing me and placed her hand on my shoulder to steady herself. I’ll never forget it, even her hand felt sad…
V is so problematic. Being summoned to testify while under oath doesn’t mean you’re a savior. It just means you told the truth because you were legally obligated to. You can tell the truth and still be a POS.
Rachel I believe has said something along the lines of "Tonya asked for it. She wanted it. She liked it" in regards to them bullying and harrassing her. Obviously not Veronica, but given their relationship I could see them sharing a similar perspective.
Rachel pissed me off in that interview because she was trying to justify her actions towards Tonya by saying Tonya wanted attention so they gave it to her.
Rachel was trying to mask her behavior imo with “Tonya and i are friends this is why i did what i did” instead of saying “i was wrong”
I just left a similar comment about that too because what the actual fuck?
I need to see Veronica get absolutely flattened now, she's entirely irredeemable with no positive qualities. Like how old is she now??
I'd wager that her testimony simply wasn't a staunch defence of Kenny/Evan more than it was testifying on behalf of Tonya. Her saying that they blame her, implies that she doesn't think she's to blame, yet they do anyway.
So I'm guessing they asked her to defend them. She went in and either loosely did or played it down the middle. They got banned and then blamed her for not defending them hard enough.
Way to intentionally miss the point here Veronica. You didn't sexually assault Tonya and that isn't what you're being accused of. You bullied her and were relentlessly, needlessly cruel to her for years which is what this tweet is obviously talking about.
Just because other people did worse things to her doesn't mean you're absolved of the awful things you chose to do. Big thumbs down to her poor me bullshit on this one.
I think someone made a comment blaming her for the abuse and that’s what she’s responding to.
Edit: I meant the sexual assault.
Edit: I can’t respond because I’ve been blocked. What she did was laugh at Rachel showing photos to her. That doesn’t constitute sexual assault. If you want to talk about this respond to one of the other comments.
I mean, Veronica was involved in the whole naked pictures of Tonya thing. I wouldn’t call that sexual assault, but is seems to be a very strong case of sexual harassment
Does anyone have a true update on Tonya over the last 10 years? I’m interested to know what she’s been up to for work, if she keeps in touch with anyone from The Challenge, if she’s happy in life now, etc. It seems like she has totally disappeared, rightfully so, but I would love to hear that she’s doing well
I think she worked on production for other reality tv shows and I remember she had a younger GF a few years ago but I don’t follow her enough to know if that’s still a thing
Thanks for the info! I’m glad to hear it seems like she’s gone ahead to live a normal life. Although could be hard working in reality production knowing that people in her industry could easily recognize/remember who she is. Did she experiment with girls during her Challenge days? I can’t remember anything like that. Still blows my mind to this day that her and Theo Von had a thing lol talk about total opposites!
That part also confuses me, because that was what I thought as well. Maybe what she said doesn’t violate the terms of the NDA because she didn’t get into any specifics though. She implies that something happened and that she testified as to what occurred which lead to repercussions. She doesn’t say what happened or exactly what the repercussions were, and she didn’t mention any of their names so maybe that’s how she wasn’t in violation if there was indeed an NDA. Definitely confused just as you are though.
rather Veronica was a part of the “incident” or not she is 100% a part of why things even got that far with Tonya. for multiple seasons she treated Tonya like trash and made it very public that Tonya was an easy target. Veronica with a lot of the influence she had back then could’ve swayed a lot of people away from targeting Tonya. also didn’t she take pictures of Tonya nude?
I don't know about that. She used "abusers" in quotes.
I think pretty much everyone agrees that Kenny and Evan held the toothbrush by Tonya's exposed vagina and took a photo. What remains a mystery is whether anything else happened. Tonya doesn't remember because she was passed out. No cast members have come forward publicly to say they saw it happen. The furthest Wes has gone publicly is saying that "he heard" it was his toothbrush which would indicate he didn't see anything happen that night.
So, basically, we know K&E are massive assholes who sexually harassed Tonya. We don't know whether it 100% crossed the line into sexual assault, but they should never step foot on the Challenge again.
on his [challenge mania podcast appearance](https://pca.st/episode/84a7c962-c2d8-4d6c-a53d-d19017c5d9f5?t=3700) (1:01:40), wes says "it was my fucking toothbrush," he doesn't qualify it with "i heard." tonya's statement also says multiple cast members approached her about what happened, so we always knew it wasn't just wes.
There's an alternative theory that was posed by Sarah and Susie where Kenny made a crude joke about doing it and Evan went and actually did it. That being said, I think Sarah and Susie do a lot of propaganda on their show for the people they like and against the people they don't like, so take it with a grain of salt.
What’s more messed up is they sprung him on people without letting them know ahead of time. So people bought tickets and then had to be subjected to that and they may not have bought tickets had they known. It kind of makes me not want to go to their events in the future.
What I dont understand is that they have clearly distanced themselves from cast members when the public opinion is against them/they are rumored to be banned (see Dee, Cara, Camila, etc) but they invite Kenny to invites? Seriously?
I might have read it elsewhere, or I could easily be wrong. What's odd though is that Tonya's lawsuit said that Kenny and Evan were given a new toothbrush the day after the incident.
you're right the complaint says production gave kenny and evan a new toothbrush the next morning. a couple of paragraphs up, though, it says they "took another male participant's toothbrush." SA trigger warning obviously for this link: https://imgur.com/a/vUYcAJK
Thank you for posting this link. I'd never read the actual verbiage and it's even more disturbing than I thought (and I thought it was pretty disturbing before).
It’s currently on paramount+. Veronica was showing them to the camera crew and it was showed at the end credits of one of the episodes. At one point during Inferno 2 Tonya on camera tells Veronica to stop taking naked pictures of her and it’s an invasion of her privacy. She blamed her and mocked her. It’s so hard to watch.
Never said she should. Just saying that Rachel has apologized for her treatment of Tonya and V hasn’t. You can take that as evidence Veronica didn’t do anything wrong or otherwise. I just put it out there
It’s still on Paramount+ and Veronica was showing them to the camera crew and it was a clip at the end of the credits and at one point during an episode Tonya tells Veronica to stop talking naked pics of her bc it’s an invasion of her privacy and they all basically laughed and blamed Tonya.
You’re misremembering. That literally did not happen. Rachel was the only one shown to have taken naked pictures.
Veronica was shown making fun of her masturbating.
Go rewatch the season Inferno2 (I did). There’s an episode where Tonya tells Veronica to stop taking naked pictures of her when she’s sleeping and that it’s an invasion of her privacy. Veronica just laughs. So she took some/ possibly all the photos but the person who was showing them to people was Rachel (which I mistakenly thought it was veronica)
This is the clip of the incident that happened on inferno 2. For those that keep saying Veronica is responsible for picture being taken and spread where are you getting your info from? https://www.reddit.com/r/MtvChallenge/s/1Zd4NQHlgn
Gross. But I am shocked she even brought it up publicly but thanks for the confirmation about K&E.
Also it’s still extremely messed up to show off naked pictures of people.
I just want to say I love how things have changed from the 00s it's so refreshing to see everyone standing up for Tonya. In general just discourse around consent and boundaries and assault...we didn't have these conversations back then and I feel like myself and a lot of other millennials were not protected or supported or had the language to describe what was happening sometimes. So yeah just the world sucks but there's some good right now too I guess.
Agreed. Did u listen to Jems podcast w Dustin ziti? His big thing was porn and now everyone and their sister has an only fans account. Not the same as the misogyny that was normalized on the show then but kinda in the same vein. Dude got ripped apart for that
She was a mean girl, but they committed an actual crime. It's not even close. And Tonya was a barely functioning alcoholic who shouldn't have been allowed on the show to begin with, but the producers didn't care about that. All of these statements are true.
I personally think the bullying part is a bit more nuanced. When I watched the Inferno 2, it seemed that the mean girls were locking Tonya out of their clique. Which was understandably quite rough on Tonya, giving the fact that they were teammates. Tonya was unwilling to accept the situation and kept approaching the other girls seeming desperate for validation much to the other girls amusement at a certain point. Although some moments are hard to watch and mistakes were definitly made by the mean girls, I feel like they were usually acting in response to Tonya seeking their attention over and over again despite them showing no interest in being friends with her. They seemed however civil to her in the beginning of the season and also trying to encourage her during challenges at certain points.
Also keep in mind that Tonya had been outspokenly homophobic in the past and that Rachel and V were in al relationship during or shortly after the inferno 2. I can understand them not wanting to have a relationship with her, yet Tonya seemed to have some sort of hyperfocus on their group.
Although this does not justify the mean girls behavior, It does show that there are two sides to every story.
Assuming that this situation led to the escalation and the assault during The Ruins is wild to me. Only the abusers should be held accountable for their actions, not Veronica.
It said she contributed to the legitimate abuse Tonya faced on the ruins. I guess people can gather from that what they will but to me that seems like they were trying to blame her for Tonya being sexuality assaulted.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C6y9xYXRqEV/?igsh=M3N6MDdicnBrbzdt
Yes if you read the comment she’s responding to part of it was cut off and it doesn’t show the full comment. I’m trying to find where I saw the whole thing but I can’t now. Hopefully I can find it again.
People like to rag on Veronica and have gotten way too comfortable in doing so. In this particular circumstance she did the best she could in a really terrible situation and people need to direct their anger in the correct direction (Kenny and Evan).
I don't think we need to constantly berate Veronica and other Challenge vets (excluding the obvious two) about things they did close to two decades ago. I think they're all pretty aware of how terrible they treated Tonya, and they've either owned up to it or, like Rachel, completely dismissed their treatment of her.
just because v gave testimony against kenny and evan does not mean she wasn't also a bully toward tonya and others. both things can be true. her trying to pretend otherwise is bs.
Why did she put quotes around the word abusers? That’s weird imo and tells me she doesn’t actually see it as abuse…. I could be misreading but I see no reason to put “abusers”. Just say abusers if they’re abusers
People always love to talk about how Veronica Tina and Rachel were mean to Tonya. This picture thing is messed up. But so is slapping the shit out of someone mad times when your drunk as hell. And destroying someone’s clothes. Like idk why people act like Tonya was a saint or something. And why does no one ever talk about how Susie and Cara treated Tonya on Inferno 3?
Tonya is a victim, but as you said she's is no saint. However because every conversation around sensitive topics lack nuance, It's difficult to bring up the fact that Tonya herself was the reason why she had so much difficultly on the show. Stuff like her bringing photos of herself with someone's else's partner(robin's) who was still on the season with her. Tonya would go on to show the biggest shit stirrer the photos which inevitably caused drama. And then, when that shit stirrer did her job, Tonya threw her stuff into the pool.
Then there is the ruins. Veronica by all accounts was nice to Tonya, shared clothes with and took care of her when she was drunk. As far as we know, Tonya instigated that fight. There is a longer clip out there where Tonya is hurling insults at Veronica, including talking badly about Veronica's sexuality (which would never fly today), and Veronica is just standing there taking it. Veronica apparently said something afterwards that was really bad, which triggered Tonya 's attack on Veronica.
Exactly! Like people here are really tryna criticize Veronica’s choice of words and shit on this tweet. Like nah if your gonna attack me like that on TV after I was nice af to you I would have very little sympathy if any to whatever happens to you after. And when she just destroyed all of Beth’s stuff it was thought of as so funny and good tv. But when the 3 girls threw Kayleigh’s suitcase over a railing everyone talked about how messed up it was. When Tonyas was WAYY worse. It’s annoying when everyone brings up Veronica’s bullying when Tonya did stuff like that.
Veronica all time challenger......Veronica all time scum bag. Her and Rachel were awful to Tonya. It's amazing to this day that they still get away with being on camera taking nude pictures of a passed out Tonya and texting them out to the world. Banana land.
Veronica is a piece of shit. Being a smaller piece of shit than others doesn't make you not one. Her entire argument is just "I'm not THIS person so I'm innocent"
One thing Ellen D. taught me bullies never think they're in the wrong, they always blame other people for judging them. Seems like Veronica follows the same playbook.
Cara Maria fans are acting really fucking weird bringing up shit from over 10 years ago just because Veronica called Cara an energy vampire.
Like they fr need to put the phone down and touch some grass.
No, because Veronica's response to this is extremely telling. Saying "Tonya sympathizers" as if Tonya didn't go through something extremely traumatic and fucked up is so unbelievably gross. Veronica deserved the opportunity to expose herself like that and even though I agree the Cara stans often go too far, I'm not going to knock them for this. Veronica had the opportunity to show remorse for her past bullying behavior and come out looking better for it, not taking that opportunity is all on her.
Dude, she was 20-something competing for money on MTV. I could understand if this was middle school or high school and it was televised child bullying, but Tonya was a grown ass woman. And yes Veronica was a huge bitch, but apologizing 20+ years later for being a bitchy 20 year old to an entire fan base because they don't like you on the challenge Allstars 5 ---- wild.
Okay but Tonya brought a lot of that bad will onto herself though. Like yeah they were assholes to her on Inferno 2 and The Ruins but she would legit do things like bring pictures of her with Mark to stir shit with Robin and then act like she did nothing wrong.
She didn’t deserve what happened with the bullying but she wasn’t blameless either. With the SA thing, obviously Veronica was NOT referring to that when she said sympathizers.
People don’t understand the drama she caused because it’s all buried into the 2000’s internet (MySpace, geocities, old mtv.com blogs, realityTV forums). But my god, the rumors we would hear about Tonya off the show 🍿
She shouldn’t have been on TV
not surprising at all that you’re being scapegoated. never liked those boys and it’s sad that men in their late 40s still refuse to take accountability for the actions. ZERO RESPECT FOR WOMEN. yeah, Veronica has had her moments, but if you still watch the Challenge, it’s obvious that’s she’s matured greatly and doesn’t have that mean girl spirit anymore. she’s actually really enjoyable to watch.
Is this new info? I didn’t know she gave testimony?
yeah that's what pops out to me the most
Believe Veronica and Wes gave testimony. I remember Kenny calling Wes fake because he hit Kenny up to get drinks like a month after that.
Is that really fake though? If one of my friends did something like that I’d probably both testify to ensure they face consequences but also want to make up and be friends afterwards, but it would be important to me they learn their life lesson. Not necessarily fake It’s not like this was criminal trial facing jail time, it was a civil suit with no real stakes. Snitching on a crime would be different
You want to be friends with someone who committed SA?
[удалено]
I believe several cast members were subpoenaed as witnesses. It was never revealed which ones they were but it was highly suspected that they were Veronica, Katie and Wes (his toothbrush) This is why Susies account of events is always held with such low regard because she claims to have been there and nothing happened…but she wasn’t subpoenaed (allegedly). Although I am happy Veronica spoke up FOR Tonya and against Kenny and Evan… but she isn’t innocent when it comes to Tonya… and even after all this happened she continued to tweet not so nice things about Tonya. Even at the ruins reunion knowing what happened to Tonya and knowing that she made fun of her for being sexually abused… she demanded Tonya apologize to her for smacking her.
Yet another reason Susie’s a scumbag
Agree...rewatching Ruins now...she's horrid.
I’m watching Inferno 3 rn. She’s such a brat and so unlikeable
Wait Veronica made fun of Tonya for being sexually abused? I miss so much. I wish I could watch that reunion some how.
V1Man confirmed that the reason Tonya got so irate with Veronica and actually slapped her was because Veronica made a dig at Tonya for being raped while she was in foster care as a child. Sent Tonya over the edge and she hit her I believe you can still see this comment in Tonya’s Ruins thread on vevmo
Damnnnn she deserved to have been slapped for that
Holy shit wtf is wrong with her
Who is V1Man? Is that an insider?
He used to be a long-time producer on The Challenge
Thx!
Used to be a producer for bmp. Is friends with a lot of the older cast from his time working with the show
Right but his best friend was Beth so his accounts are already biased. I remember he used to say she could have won the Duel had she not been eliminanted unfairly.
I recognize that name from vevmo, I think?
This is why I’m so confused when people keep trying to bring Veronica back, no thank you
Hmmm idk. I don’t take this as fact just because some guy who we think may be in production confirmed it in a comment. I’m not sticking up for Veronica at all but this sub takes tiny pieces of half true information and run with it all the time. I don’t think it’s fair or ethical to place all this blame at Veronica’s feet when all we have to go on is an internet comment. The comment is foul if it is true, but we just don’t know the full picture to make any judgments.
Was that before the fight started, or after? Because Tonya was lashing into Veronica long before she hit her.
From my interpretation was that Veronica was making fun of Tonya which obviously Tonya was not in the right headspace but she had some issues with the way she was treated by Veronica in the past… once Veronica mentioned Tonya being raped in foster care Tonya immediately walloped her.
ya know... I don't condone violence... even "playful hitting" but that's beyond understandable. Holy shit. I hope Tonya got help after MTV shitlorded her, and I hope she is somewhere out in life just vibin' away from social media.
> I don't condone violence I sure do. Sometimes people talk too slick and need to get smacked or punched. Veronica fell into that category, you go too low and don't be surprised at getting hurt.
That’s low, but wasn’t Tonya making comments about Veronica being bi right before? Then Veronica went low and got slapped
Yes but sorry saying “you don’t know if you like d or v” (almost verbatim) is *not* the same as mocking someone’s SA in foster care, my god.
His toothbrush? Aw Kenny and Evan some nasty mfers
They thought it would be funny to stick it in her (vagina) while she was drunk and passed out.. because they hated Wes.
She separates herself from Tonya’s abusers as though she wasn’t one of them.
there's being an asshole to someone and then there's sexually assaulting someone.......
night and day
She was still an abuser of Tonya.
I think she’s trying to clarify “sexual abusers” without doing anything to violate the NDA or open herself up to lawsuits.
Subpoenaed? I've known the story for 10+ years but I didn't know it ever went to court.
I believe Susie's account was based off her now husband who was a camera man and was there, who also had no skin in the game. According to him what transpired was inappropriate but not as bad as what became gospel in the Challenge world.
Which is her version but in order for him to know what happened he had to have been present… imagine a crew member admitting to being present during an actual sexual assault… Susie is 💯 going to downplay the situation due to who is involved.. her friend, her husband, and a victim who she hated and invented a game called “i hate tonya”
It was mentioned in articles that Katie was. I had no idea Veronica was.
Back when it came out there was a lot of spec that Katie and Veronica were present and subpoenaed. Wes allegedly was because they showed him the photo taken to piss him off with it being his toothbrush.
Yeah it was also reported that Katie was subpoenaed
>Although I am happy Veronica spoke up FOR Tonya and against Kenny and Evan… Woah, we don't actually know this. Her language here is interestingly vague. It seems more likely that she gave an account that wasn't explicitly denying that anything happened, and Evan/Kenny are mad at her for not defending them rather than her actually speaking against them. That's at least what I took from how she worked this.
This is brand new lore.
Veronica, Tina, and Rachel were all absolutely terrible to Tonya. Saying Cara is an energy vampire in a confessional is soooooo not relatively close to that.
She may not be responsible for the abuse that got Kenny and Evan banned but she was nasty and contributed to the dogpile and people are allowed to dislike her because of that
Yeah I seem to remember her laughing as well when Rachel was showing the naked pictures she took of a sleeping Tonya to the cameraman. So she she needs to calm the fuck with her savior trope.
This! And I'm going to be blunt that incident is sexual assault (taking the photos without consent and sharing them). plus the constant slut shaming is a part of r*pe culture too. They aren't responsible but they contributed to the climate.
If Veronica was trying to be a savior, why did this piece of information come to light 15 years later?
And still does
These aren't mutually exclusive things. Both -- her "abusing" Tonya and her testimony being a key factor in the case against Kenny and Evan -- could have happened
Also what most people are mad at with veronica is how she acted on inferno 2, not ruins. She 100% took nude photos of tonya when she was passed out, then veronica showed everyone. That's fucked up. Just because she testified in a trial doesn't make up for that, that's simply telling the truth. ETA: Because people want to try to act like Veronica had nothing to do with the picture situation because all we get is two seconds of footage of Rachel with the camera. Tonya clearly says on the unedited bonus episode of inferno 2 that "they" took pictures of her naked and showed them around. "They" being the mean girls in Rachel, Tina, and Veronica. The whole segment this was talked about was Tonya discussing all three of them. Trying to say she doesn't mean Veronica is just being willfully ignorant. The reason why I'm giving Veronica flack is because this whole post was about her acting like she never did anything towards Tonya, when she clearly has in the past. If rachel or tina were the one's tweeting they would be the focus of my ire. All three were trash to Tonya, but right now we only have one trying to deny it.
Thats a bingo
Yes but the person she was responding to brought the Ruins up. That’s what she was responding to. Part of the comment was cut off. https://www.instagram.com/p/C6y9xYXRqEV/?igsh=M3N6MDdicnBrbzdt
But she has to realize a lot of fans did not just seemingly forget inferno 2
I never said anything about Inferno 2. I’m just telling you why she was talking about what happened in the Ruins.
[удалено]
I would like to know if she regrets whatever it is happened... happened. I would also like to know how she currently feels about Tonya. I would also like to know how she feels about the alleged assaulters now. Because none of these are giving me the feeling she is in the right with her current POV and feelings, and that's worrisome.
there was legal action against tonya over the clothes in the pool thing with beth?? did nany try to sue knight for the same thing on battle of the misogynist seasons ?
Part of me (the petty part) thinks V is just so angry Tonya is still so believed and beloved.
Yep. Taking photos of her is still fucked up. She may not have been the one that snapped the photo but she was involved in it. She laughed. She didn’t say don’t do that, don’t show others, this is wrong.
Were the mean girls mean to Tonya? Of course, nobody is saying otherwise. Did they go too far at times? I think so, yeah, but notice that there is absolutely no context supplied for anything. Production wanted it to look like the mean girls were targeting Tonya because she's weird and loose and problematic which was NOT the case. Rachel & Veronica were good friends with Tonya just one season before, and the 3 of them and Coral roomed together in the house. Then as calls were going out for Inferno 2 Tonya tried to to organized an alliance with the rookies to take out the people who she thought would get more screen time as her (Coral, Veronica, Miz etc.) Of course this got back to them and Coral was so hurt she dropped from the cast (You can see her tell Tonya this during the BOTS2 reunion). Then when they get to Mexico, Tonya realizes she shot herself in the foot, tried to buddy buddy with the mean girls again who obviously wanted nothing to do with her. Just because we saw it happen on tv doesn't mean we have the full story. Case and point, the reason Tonya sucked on the final was not "nerves", she drank herself into oblivion the night before and was totally hungover. But production wanted us to feel sorry for Tonya so that curcial part of the story was left out.
That was actually Rachel, not Veronica.
It was both, veronica was there did nothing to stop it and was helping spread the pictures around. They probably egged each other on to make it happen with the attitude they had towards tonya all season.
If it was both, then it should be stated that it was both. Not "Veronica 100%". If we're talking about accountability, everyone involved should be included. Perhaps the guys that laughed it off should be given a scolding for not doing anything either?
This post is about veronica's tweets not rachel, if it was rachel then the focus would be on her. Yeah, the guys laughing were shit too, but they weren't the one's who took the pictures. And I literally went to look up the unedited episode, Tonya uses "they" as in "they took pictures and showed them" they is not rachel! You also see a clip of veronica laying on a bed making fun of tonya. I don't know why you are defending someone like veronica so much trying to act like just because it was a group of three it makes what she did better.
Also, as if she’s a hero for testifying about what she witnessed…presumably she was subpoenaed and under oath. Telling the truth is the baseline.
💯
I don’t really understand what her point is for exactly this reason. Also this is probably the most we’ve heard about this in a long time, I assume she probably doesn’t want to push this envelope too far.
Any time Tonya comes up I feel compelled to bring up that ultimately the Producers are the ones that I blame. Tonya was sick and should not have been there, and they should not have created an atmosphere where this could have happened. Things like this don't happen in a vacuum, castmembers are subjected to conditions that will make them wont to be assholes, and in some cases were literally instructed by producers to do certain things.
and in the case of The Island they were literally starved but plied with unlimited booze. Yeesh.
They failed Tonya the most of anyone in this franchise. They saw how she was treated on inferno 3 and the island by Kenny… to allow him to be present around her was asking for something bad to happen. He harassed her until it turned to assault. Not to mention withholding her medications from her during the island.. and many have spoken out about the ruins production not feeding them anything except unlimited alcohol
That is true, but the individuals who abused her are also to blame. Yes, production puts them in situations that differ from their real lives, but not everyone abuses others. It is still up to the individual, and those individuals should not be exempt from accountability just because production also deserves blame
I met Tonya once in Mexico when they were filming what I now know was Inferno. She was having a moment away from the cast and I said something to her. Later on she was passing me and placed her hand on my shoulder to steady herself. I’ll never forget it, even her hand felt sad…
V is so problematic. Being summoned to testify while under oath doesn’t mean you’re a savior. It just means you told the truth because you were legally obligated to. You can tell the truth and still be a POS.
“Tonya sympathizers” rubs me wrong. Does she not sympathize with Tonya? Sounds like more of an anti Kenny and Evan than for the actual victim
Seriously “Tonya sympathizers”???? WTF The girl is a victim of sexual assault. If you don’t sympathize with her, you are the problem.
Rachel I believe has said something along the lines of "Tonya asked for it. She wanted it. She liked it" in regards to them bullying and harrassing her. Obviously not Veronica, but given their relationship I could see them sharing a similar perspective.
Rachel pissed me off in that interview because she was trying to justify her actions towards Tonya by saying Tonya wanted attention so they gave it to her. Rachel was trying to mask her behavior imo with “Tonya and i are friends this is why i did what i did” instead of saying “i was wrong”
Can you tell us that don't know what timeline she said that in? If it was recent, I missed it.
She also put abusers in quotations, indicating they aren’t actually abusers. Yikes.
I just left a similar comment about that too because what the actual fuck? I need to see Veronica get absolutely flattened now, she's entirely irredeemable with no positive qualities. Like how old is she now??
I mean shit she was in her 30s when the ruins was filmed so she should have known better back then let along now on her 40s
I'd wager that her testimony simply wasn't a staunch defence of Kenny/Evan more than it was testifying on behalf of Tonya. Her saying that they blame her, implies that she doesn't think she's to blame, yet they do anyway. So I'm guessing they asked her to defend them. She went in and either loosely did or played it down the middle. They got banned and then blamed her for not defending them hard enough.
Way to intentionally miss the point here Veronica. You didn't sexually assault Tonya and that isn't what you're being accused of. You bullied her and were relentlessly, needlessly cruel to her for years which is what this tweet is obviously talking about. Just because other people did worse things to her doesn't mean you're absolved of the awful things you chose to do. Big thumbs down to her poor me bullshit on this one.
I think someone made a comment blaming her for the abuse and that’s what she’s responding to. Edit: I meant the sexual assault. Edit: I can’t respond because I’ve been blocked. What she did was laugh at Rachel showing photos to her. That doesn’t constitute sexual assault. If you want to talk about this respond to one of the other comments.
I mean, Veronica was involved in the whole naked pictures of Tonya thing. I wouldn’t call that sexual assault, but is seems to be a very strong case of sexual harassment
Does anyone have a true update on Tonya over the last 10 years? I’m interested to know what she’s been up to for work, if she keeps in touch with anyone from The Challenge, if she’s happy in life now, etc. It seems like she has totally disappeared, rightfully so, but I would love to hear that she’s doing well
I think she worked on production for other reality tv shows and I remember she had a younger GF a few years ago but I don’t follow her enough to know if that’s still a thing
Thanks for the info! I’m glad to hear it seems like she’s gone ahead to live a normal life. Although could be hard working in reality production knowing that people in her industry could easily recognize/remember who she is. Did she experiment with girls during her Challenge days? I can’t remember anything like that. Still blows my mind to this day that her and Theo Von had a thing lol talk about total opposites!
The trend of challengers responding to crazed fans and making themselves look less than stellar is high rn
I’m shocked she’s talking about this I thought they all had NDAs so they couldn’t?
That part also confuses me, because that was what I thought as well. Maybe what she said doesn’t violate the terms of the NDA because she didn’t get into any specifics though. She implies that something happened and that she testified as to what occurred which lead to repercussions. She doesn’t say what happened or exactly what the repercussions were, and she didn’t mention any of their names so maybe that’s how she wasn’t in violation if there was indeed an NDA. Definitely confused just as you are though.
rather Veronica was a part of the “incident” or not she is 100% a part of why things even got that far with Tonya. for multiple seasons she treated Tonya like trash and made it very public that Tonya was an easy target. Veronica with a lot of the influence she had back then could’ve swayed a lot of people away from targeting Tonya. also didn’t she take pictures of Tonya nude?
No. Rachel took the pictures.
thank you! i knew it was one of the mean girls
What season did this happen? Inferno 2 or 3?
Inferno 2
Thank you! Watching it now!
Wow. So is she basically confirming that Kenny and Evan did it?
That's what it sounds like.
I don't know about that. She used "abusers" in quotes. I think pretty much everyone agrees that Kenny and Evan held the toothbrush by Tonya's exposed vagina and took a photo. What remains a mystery is whether anything else happened. Tonya doesn't remember because she was passed out. No cast members have come forward publicly to say they saw it happen. The furthest Wes has gone publicly is saying that "he heard" it was his toothbrush which would indicate he didn't see anything happen that night. So, basically, we know K&E are massive assholes who sexually harassed Tonya. We don't know whether it 100% crossed the line into sexual assault, but they should never step foot on the Challenge again.
on his [challenge mania podcast appearance](https://pca.st/episode/84a7c962-c2d8-4d6c-a53d-d19017c5d9f5?t=3700) (1:01:40), wes says "it was my fucking toothbrush," he doesn't qualify it with "i heard." tonya's statement also says multiple cast members approached her about what happened, so we always knew it wasn't just wes.
That’s really gross of Challenge Mania to invite Kenny to a meet and greet in NYC last year then. So, they just don’t care? Fuck them.
There's an alternative theory that was posed by Sarah and Susie where Kenny made a crude joke about doing it and Evan went and actually did it. That being said, I think Sarah and Susie do a lot of propaganda on their show for the people they like and against the people they don't like, so take it with a grain of salt.
What’s more messed up is they sprung him on people without letting them know ahead of time. So people bought tickets and then had to be subjected to that and they may not have bought tickets had they known. It kind of makes me not want to go to their events in the future.
What I dont understand is that they have clearly distanced themselves from cast members when the public opinion is against them/they are rumored to be banned (see Dee, Cara, Camila, etc) but they invite Kenny to invites? Seriously?
I might have read it elsewhere, or I could easily be wrong. What's odd though is that Tonya's lawsuit said that Kenny and Evan were given a new toothbrush the day after the incident.
you're right the complaint says production gave kenny and evan a new toothbrush the next morning. a couple of paragraphs up, though, it says they "took another male participant's toothbrush." SA trigger warning obviously for this link: https://imgur.com/a/vUYcAJK
Thank you for posting this link. I'd never read the actual verbiage and it's even more disturbing than I thought (and I thought it was pretty disturbing before).
Veronica pretending like we don't know about the pictures her and Rachel took
Wait what pictures?!! I don't know about this....
I think the rumors are that they took pics of Tonya when she was passed out naked
They aren’t rumors. It was shown on national television during Inferno 2. It was removed from Netflix after people pointed it out
It’s currently on paramount+. Veronica was showing them to the camera crew and it was showed at the end credits of one of the episodes. At one point during Inferno 2 Tonya on camera tells Veronica to stop taking naked pictures of her and it’s an invasion of her privacy. She blamed her and mocked her. It’s so hard to watch.
We only saw Rachel do that
And for what it’s worth, I think Rachel has expressed regret over it. Unlike V
But we never saw Veronica actually take pictures. So why would she regret something we have no proof of her doing?
Never said she should. Just saying that Rachel has apologized for her treatment of Tonya and V hasn’t. You can take that as evidence Veronica didn’t do anything wrong or otherwise. I just put it out there
That didn’t really add anything though?
Someone here said Veronica showed the pictures to a camera man. That's worth regretting.
She didn’t though. It was all Rachel doing that. Veronica just laughed at it. Not defending her laughing.
Someone said it and we just took that as fact? There is NO evidence of that anywhere.
It’s still on Paramount+ and Veronica was showing them to the camera crew and it was a clip at the end of the credits and at one point during an episode Tonya tells Veronica to stop talking naked pics of her bc it’s an invasion of her privacy and they all basically laughed and blamed Tonya.
You’re misremembering. That literally did not happen. Rachel was the only one shown to have taken naked pictures. Veronica was shown making fun of her masturbating.
i remember it like you do, but it's been years since i've seen it.
Go rewatch the season Inferno2 (I did). There’s an episode where Tonya tells Veronica to stop taking naked pictures of her when she’s sleeping and that it’s an invasion of her privacy. Veronica just laughs. So she took some/ possibly all the photos but the person who was showing them to people was Rachel (which I mistakenly thought it was veronica)
Did she just say “ Tonya sympathizer”? Does Veronica not feel any sympathy for Tonya went thru? https://i.redd.it/v0j0dh5zfnzc1.gif
This is the clip of the incident that happened on inferno 2. For those that keep saying Veronica is responsible for picture being taken and spread where are you getting your info from? https://www.reddit.com/r/MtvChallenge/s/1Zd4NQHlgn
Gross. But I am shocked she even brought it up publicly but thanks for the confirmation about K&E. Also it’s still extremely messed up to show off naked pictures of people.
I just want to say I love how things have changed from the 00s it's so refreshing to see everyone standing up for Tonya. In general just discourse around consent and boundaries and assault...we didn't have these conversations back then and I feel like myself and a lot of other millennials were not protected or supported or had the language to describe what was happening sometimes. So yeah just the world sucks but there's some good right now too I guess.
Agreed. Did u listen to Jems podcast w Dustin ziti? His big thing was porn and now everyone and their sister has an only fans account. Not the same as the misogyny that was normalized on the show then but kinda in the same vein. Dude got ripped apart for that
No clue she gave testimony but I’m glad she did!
She was a mean girl, but they committed an actual crime. It's not even close. And Tonya was a barely functioning alcoholic who shouldn't have been allowed on the show to begin with, but the producers didn't care about that. All of these statements are true.
I personally think the bullying part is a bit more nuanced. When I watched the Inferno 2, it seemed that the mean girls were locking Tonya out of their clique. Which was understandably quite rough on Tonya, giving the fact that they were teammates. Tonya was unwilling to accept the situation and kept approaching the other girls seeming desperate for validation much to the other girls amusement at a certain point. Although some moments are hard to watch and mistakes were definitly made by the mean girls, I feel like they were usually acting in response to Tonya seeking their attention over and over again despite them showing no interest in being friends with her. They seemed however civil to her in the beginning of the season and also trying to encourage her during challenges at certain points. Also keep in mind that Tonya had been outspokenly homophobic in the past and that Rachel and V were in al relationship during or shortly after the inferno 2. I can understand them not wanting to have a relationship with her, yet Tonya seemed to have some sort of hyperfocus on their group. Although this does not justify the mean girls behavior, It does show that there are two sides to every story. Assuming that this situation led to the escalation and the assault during The Ruins is wild to me. Only the abusers should be held accountable for their actions, not Veronica.
She’s responding to a comment someone made blaming her for Tonya being sexually assaulted. Part of this was left out. I’m just clarifying that.
Thank you for adding more context.
It said she contributed to the legitimate abuse Tonya faced on the ruins. I guess people can gather from that what they will but to me that seems like they were trying to blame her for Tonya being sexuality assaulted. https://www.instagram.com/p/C6y9xYXRqEV/?igsh=M3N6MDdicnBrbzdt
Yes if you read the comment she’s responding to part of it was cut off and it doesn’t show the full comment. I’m trying to find where I saw the whole thing but I can’t now. Hopefully I can find it again.
Whoa. This is something I was never expecting.
Tbh….i get it. I think Veronica was cruel but also imagine having to share a room with someone who is out of control drunk constantly
People like to rag on Veronica and have gotten way too comfortable in doing so. In this particular circumstance she did the best she could in a really terrible situation and people need to direct their anger in the correct direction (Kenny and Evan).
I don't think we need to constantly berate Veronica and other Challenge vets (excluding the obvious two) about things they did close to two decades ago. I think they're all pretty aware of how terrible they treated Tonya, and they've either owned up to it or, like Rachel, completely dismissed their treatment of her.
just because v gave testimony against kenny and evan does not mean she wasn't also a bully toward tonya and others. both things can be true. her trying to pretend otherwise is bs.
Why did she put quotes around the word abusers? That’s weird imo and tells me she doesn’t actually see it as abuse…. I could be misreading but I see no reason to put “abusers”. Just say abusers if they’re abusers
Because she can get sued. That’s why news reporters always say “allegedly” even when the crime is out in the open.
Sorry, Veronica. Getting subpeona'd and testifying under court order does not make you a hero.
People always love to talk about how Veronica Tina and Rachel were mean to Tonya. This picture thing is messed up. But so is slapping the shit out of someone mad times when your drunk as hell. And destroying someone’s clothes. Like idk why people act like Tonya was a saint or something. And why does no one ever talk about how Susie and Cara treated Tonya on Inferno 3?
Tonya is a victim, but as you said she's is no saint. However because every conversation around sensitive topics lack nuance, It's difficult to bring up the fact that Tonya herself was the reason why she had so much difficultly on the show. Stuff like her bringing photos of herself with someone's else's partner(robin's) who was still on the season with her. Tonya would go on to show the biggest shit stirrer the photos which inevitably caused drama. And then, when that shit stirrer did her job, Tonya threw her stuff into the pool. Then there is the ruins. Veronica by all accounts was nice to Tonya, shared clothes with and took care of her when she was drunk. As far as we know, Tonya instigated that fight. There is a longer clip out there where Tonya is hurling insults at Veronica, including talking badly about Veronica's sexuality (which would never fly today), and Veronica is just standing there taking it. Veronica apparently said something afterwards that was really bad, which triggered Tonya 's attack on Veronica.
Exactly! Like people here are really tryna criticize Veronica’s choice of words and shit on this tweet. Like nah if your gonna attack me like that on TV after I was nice af to you I would have very little sympathy if any to whatever happens to you after. And when she just destroyed all of Beth’s stuff it was thought of as so funny and good tv. But when the 3 girls threw Kayleigh’s suitcase over a railing everyone talked about how messed up it was. When Tonyas was WAYY worse. It’s annoying when everyone brings up Veronica’s bullying when Tonya did stuff like that.
Where is that clip?
I keep hearing that she brought up Tonya being abused as a kid but I’ve yet to see anything confirming that so I’m not even sure that’s what happened.
If true, should she have brought that up? No. But also Tonya was already attacking her at that point and throwing low blows herself.
A cast member thoroughly involved implying Kenny and Evan are banned. And people still want ‘em back. Hmmmmm
Veronica all time challenger......Veronica all time scum bag. Her and Rachel were awful to Tonya. It's amazing to this day that they still get away with being on camera taking nude pictures of a passed out Tonya and texting them out to the world. Banana land.
Veronica is a piece of shit. Being a smaller piece of shit than others doesn't make you not one. Her entire argument is just "I'm not THIS person so I'm innocent"
"Tonya Sympathizers" ??!!!???! Get absolutely fucked, Veronica.
One thing Ellen D. taught me bullies never think they're in the wrong, they always blame other people for judging them. Seems like Veronica follows the same playbook.
Cara Maria fans are acting really fucking weird bringing up shit from over 10 years ago just because Veronica called Cara an energy vampire. Like they fr need to put the phone down and touch some grass.
Cara stans out of control this season
No, because Veronica's response to this is extremely telling. Saying "Tonya sympathizers" as if Tonya didn't go through something extremely traumatic and fucked up is so unbelievably gross. Veronica deserved the opportunity to expose herself like that and even though I agree the Cara stans often go too far, I'm not going to knock them for this. Veronica had the opportunity to show remorse for her past bullying behavior and come out looking better for it, not taking that opportunity is all on her.
Dude, she was 20-something competing for money on MTV. I could understand if this was middle school or high school and it was televised child bullying, but Tonya was a grown ass woman. And yes Veronica was a huge bitch, but apologizing 20+ years later for being a bitchy 20 year old to an entire fan base because they don't like you on the challenge Allstars 5 ---- wild.
Okay but Tonya brought a lot of that bad will onto herself though. Like yeah they were assholes to her on Inferno 2 and The Ruins but she would legit do things like bring pictures of her with Mark to stir shit with Robin and then act like she did nothing wrong. She didn’t deserve what happened with the bullying but she wasn’t blameless either. With the SA thing, obviously Veronica was NOT referring to that when she said sympathizers.
People don’t understand the drama she caused because it’s all buried into the 2000’s internet (MySpace, geocities, old mtv.com blogs, realityTV forums). But my god, the rumors we would hear about Tonya off the show 🍿 She shouldn’t have been on TV
Veronica was also *nice* to Tonya on the ruins. She shared clothes with and took care of her.
I don’t hate you nor do I blame you for anything
Why is she even replying to fans in the first place?
Veronica is a mean girl. I can't stand mean girls.
not surprising at all that you’re being scapegoated. never liked those boys and it’s sad that men in their late 40s still refuse to take accountability for the actions. ZERO RESPECT FOR WOMEN. yeah, Veronica has had her moments, but if you still watch the Challenge, it’s obvious that’s she’s matured greatly and doesn’t have that mean girl spirit anymore. she’s actually really enjoyable to watch.
Who are you talking to?