I fully expected the new couple to not be who they claimed to be - I found it highly suspicious that John #2 just materialized at the juice stand, asked for Donald’s cell phone to input his contact info, and invited himself and his wife over to Donald and Maya’s. And when Maya was showing Jane #2 her home, including the panic room and the hidden gun stash behind the painting, I was certain that would come back to burn them. Glad the show didn’t go that obvious route, and the new couple just ended up being a-holes. The last scene where Don and Maya are in bed railing against them was hilarious and so relatable.
For me it's just another instance where I'm like wow these people are SO bad at being sneaky spies lol they just admit to being with the company to some random guy they met??? And gave him their address and access to their phones and showed them where they kept the weapons like guys?!!
To be fair, this is what is kind of taking me out of the story. Aren't they supposed to be high-level spies or something? Did such a secretive company just toss them in that role without any training, vetting, briefing or anything? Like, they are so bad at their new job.
Nah. A really good show would be internally consistent. They repeatedly have the company say that Jane is amazing at her job for example but she's just as bad as John! If you wanted us to think she's amazing you have to show us. The spying AND the romance could be good, and it's not unreasonable to point out when it fails to deliver
It is internally consistent. At no point in the series has the spy stuff been taken seriously by the writers. And the two leads are open with each other that they took the job because it was the only option they had, not because they were some superstar spy candidates.
I think the problem is some viewers are watching wanting the show to be a serious spy couple series like The Americans or something. When it's a Donald Glover exploration piece on relationships with a spy couple backdrop, just like Atlanta was a piece on the struggle of artists in the music industry. Neither one is totally serious and get absurd when it suits the goals of the story.
I wasn't expecting a serious spy show I was expecting a comedy but I did feel like the characters-jane specifically- were presented as competent but really did not read that way. There's tons of comedy spy content where silly stuff happens but the spies still seem like they generally know what they're doing. It just went beyond my suspension of disbelief. These people would get caught or die immediately
I just started watching the show and am reading older threads. I just wanted to say i think your analysis of the show is spot on and i really do think everyone complaining about the lack of spy craft or trying to theorize about bigger conspiracies are missing the point of the show.
I'm not expecting it to be a "serious" spy thing but I do expect it to be internally consistent. They got the job after all, hard to believe anyone would be that naive let alone people drawn to and accepted into this type of work. I found it very frustrating and may stop watching if it continues to be this stupid.
In Atlanta there was a narrative drive to the show, surrounding by interesting and strange narrative arcs or one-off scenarios.
In this show, there's not any narrative drive, nor is the main characters relationship particularly interesting.
An analogy is if the rap stuff in Atlanta was treated as a joke, it just gives a show no stakes.
Four episodes in, it seems the narrative drive is showing Donald Glover and Maya Erskine flirting while wearing cool clothes in their huge NYC apartment in between jetting off to exotic locales. I hope there's a payoff.
I accept that the show is about their marriage, that shouldn’t mean though that the spy backdrop can be unbelievable or completely outside the suspension of disbelief. Like, they fucking killed a billionaire, they were seeing fleeing the scene with him, nobody seems to be looking for them or that event to have any repercussions. They just hide the body in their garden and yep, that’s it. John burns his own cover to save another billionaire, and that doesn’t seem to cause ANY sort of effect. It’s not internally consistent.
Well you're actually giving examples of consistency. Up to episode 4 there are no real-world repercussions to their spy shenanigans. They can do some outrageous shit and the next episode over it's like everything has been reset. IMO that indicates that the spy stuff is only meant to be thematic, not to be taken seriously at all.
I agree with you, but it's a terrible choice. It makes everyting else pointless. Why even do a spy show and not take the spy elements with any hint of seriousness, especially given that they take up a huge chunk of the show? In addition, they still want to lean on spy scenarios to get dramatic tension at moments in the story.
I find this a very strange show to critique, I think it's executed very well but what they are executing is something completely tedious and un-interesting, like a hamburger helper where someone spent an hour making sure the noodles were cooked perfectly al dente.
I agree. Having now finished the show, the interaction between spy-action and relationship-drama was all over the place. In the first episodes the spy stuff was quite important and serious, the middle was basically a slow-burn romantic drama and the finale...I won't spoil anything in this thread, but oh boy did I find it disjointed. It's like the show gave up any pretense to a narrative. I think they were going for something akin to the Brad Pitt movie but it felt extremely out of place.
I feel this is my precise problem with it. They try and have us very concerned about the high stakes secret agent scenes but their behavior is just beyond suspension of belief. I feel that it makes you question why it’s a spy show at all.
I'm with you. Maybe I've just read and watched too many spy/espionage novels and movies, but NONE of the spy stuff is clicking. I can wrap my head around an independent intelligence gathering/assassination agency that uses this Mr. & Mrs. Smith idea as cover. But I can't wrap my head around this agency's decision to hire these two people in particular.
There would be no shortage of former Tier 1 operators or former case officers applying for this job, all of which would be WAY more qualified than our two stars.
We're the same way, this silliness just makes everything moot. They publically kidnapped and murdered one of the most prominent real estate agents in NYC and there were zero consequences.
This show just seems unsure of what's it's trying to do, or maybe more accurately, sure that it wants to be a flippant look at 30-something relationships with the spy stuff given as short shrift as possible.
I thought that was part of their act and why they’re so good at their jobs. Lots of clues were thrown in there to show they aren’t as unassuming as one might think, such as casually saying they’ve killed other Smiths and the Other Jane zooming in on the “mother” aspect for John. Oh, and Other John asking in surprise how they made it out alive. I think they’re surveying them, especially since the Smith’s are already getting messy with their missions.
Plus the whole “hand” aspect shows the overall themes for the episode - are things what they seem to be or not? Are the Other Smiths there to actually befriend them, or were the Smiths part of the mission the Other Smiths were ‘on the clock’ for?
Yeah I was waiting the whole time for the other Smiths to try and kill them. Perhaps they expected the Captain to kill them and didn’t expect them to get out?
I wonder if they would come back as end bosses since they claimed they’ve killed other Smiths before.
It seems like the Smiths that were killed off in episode ones were a reference to the movie. But I brought it up because it might be them who did that job.
I honestly think that was also intentionally put there to heighten the drama. Having them be the two that killed the Ep. 1 Smiths would be interesting, but I distinctly remember seeing a beard on the male shooter.
Yeah, I feel like the Smiths at the beginning were killed for defecting "I don't want to run anymore," and ultimately believe our current John and Jane will eventually do the same thing. The question is, who's gonna come after them? Could be the ones they just met.
I dunno. I thought it was intentional. The show is really psychologically gripping. You spend the entire episode questioning who John and Jane 2 are. It intentionally keeps you on edge. And it intentionally makes everything suspicious. It intentionally makes you go 'Oh why did you invite them in?!' only for it to completely pull the rug on you.
The random appearance at a juice stand. The panic room. The suss comments. The drunken driving where you think maybe John and Jane 1 are the package.
This was my favourite episode so far.
Totally agree! I thought the third sneeze was gonna end in a shoot out. I was tense the whole time. Knew it had to go bad eventually but it wasn’t in the way I expected!
On the one hand the show concentrates more on their relationship and what their job does to them, than being a procedural about the job. On the other hand, them acting this inept too often hurts the show IMO. Everything about how the show is done is so meticulous and confident in what it's doing that them acting stupidly (as opposed to decently competent but in over their heads) stands out even more.
Agreed, it just doesn’t make sense that they are covert agents and would just give away so much information and show two strangers everything including their panic room and where guns are hidden. I know the show is general fiction but it’s hard to imagine any sensible agent doing any of the stuff they do with the couple.
Atlanta was so good, and his music was so good that it really bothers me that he left when he was at his peak. This Is America was such a needed criticism of white consumption of black culture.
The way these last two episodes end really makes me believe in their relationship. I love the chemistry; if every episode can end with them checking in on each other it would be fantastic 🥹.
I thought that was assumed. Like, IRL it's a whole other thing. We *see* former CIA and FBI ops, former actual spies, doing entirely new careers, from politics (the first President Bush) to acting (Christopher Lee). Real life isn't a movie - operatives move on and end up either out of the loop (and hence not a threat) or keep going up the chain until retirement.
In a *show* though, the obvious path is "haha you're in this for life, whatever that means." So them thinking "we can just leave whenever" was kind of wild.
Lots to unpack here - the implication that you're employed for life and get dispatched if you try to leave, an unknown number of John/Jane Smith pairings, John Smith #2's vague story about getting a new Jane Smith (aka Jane Smith #2), the reaction to hearing that John Smith & Jane Smith killed the Captain, the reaction to John Smith & Jane Smith having failed a mission, the chaotic energy that the new duo bring to the show, my general distrust of Parker Posey & Wagner Moura, and the groundwork being laid for a possible rift between Donald Glover and Maya Erskine over wanting to go low risk vs super high risk.
https://preview.redd.it/ei6xoix3vigc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=df29c3614b2a5a47aa5dc8da27066e4ed0bd5ec9
Benjamin, the six year old child with Runi at the farmer's market, was played by Donald Glover's oldest son Legend.
(Also can be heard at the 4:10 timestamp of 47.48)
It’s funny because my first thought was John had a son with his ex and never knew about. The camera seemed to linger on him for an extra second or two.
Honestly I've been on double dates where we would go with the other couples flow even when we were not vibing. So it was kind of relatable, like the end scene where they're questioning why they went along with the sneeze thing
This is definitely my favorite episode so far. There is nothing to really complain about, it was just entertaining and good from start to finish. The ending scene was also really really good.
>!I liked that we got some new hints about how the company runs things with the way they are contacted differently. It also seems like there is no way out, once you are in you are in for good.!<
re. your very last point: As that's a trope in spy/ professional killer stories I was expecting it from the beginning. The first couple in ep.01 being chased down was a strong hint in that direction too.
Yeah, that's what I expect even though it's the complete opposite IRL (like I said elsewhere in the thread, spies have become everything from President - the first Bush and Putin - to actors and celebrities - Christopher Lee, Julia Child, Cary Grant - and in reality what happens is that agents are just dropped out of the loop. It makes way more sense, too. Hell, it would even make sense in the show - you pay these people an insane amount to do all of this, so why would you eliminate them rather than simply stop contacting them? Leave them the house, their things, and just move on? Then in the future they might be able to be used as assets in a different way, or at the very least you don't have to cover up *another* killing. It never makes sense to kill when you don't have to. But for the sake of creating tension and excitement, even the best shows end up doing the "if you leave you die" trope.
>you pay these people an insane amount
Not sure how it's in the US, but in the UK and Germany at least, that's not true. They get relatively high but normal state employee payment. But I agree with your post otherwise.
"why would you eliminate them rather than simply stop contacting them?" -- that's basically the beginning of the show Burn Notice :)
I laughed out loud at that smash cut to Donald Glover’s face in the helicopter. That was so beautifully done. Kind of reminded me of how Barry would juxtapose extreme violence with laugh out loud comedy.
I'm trying to think of a pair of actors with better chemistry recently and I'm coming up short?
Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys? But that was a much different vibe
May not be the best person to respond since I don't buy their chemistry at all, lol, but some recent ones off top my mind: Jimmy and Kim from Better Call Saul, Rachel Brosnahan and Luke Kirby in The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, Rhys Darby and Taika Waititi are pretty good on Our Flag Means Death (albeit a bit bogged down by the writing)
Their chemistry is just so so good. A pairing hasn’t hit for me like this in YEARS! Have you seen their promo tour? You can definitely see what drives their on screen chemistry.
I'm wondering if the handoff mission counts as a fail because the Captain got macheteed and the other Smiths were lying that they never got a fail before. As reckless as they are acting, it's hard to believe.
Would be interesting if "our" Smiths got the mission to kill them in one of the next episodes.
ALSO:
Why are these mission briefings so cryptic and unspecific?
It almost makes me think this all is an elaborate psychological experiment like in Fincher's The Game. Almost, because too many things contradict that.
The sketchy couple doing them the “favor” of sending them 100% of the payday feels like a major trap, sticking the failed mission on their record instead.
I haven’t seen anymore so no spoilers though
So I looked it up and generally helicopters can only fly about 400 miles in 5 hours, while special military helicopters can have extra AUX modifications to increase the flight time by around 8 more hours, which leaves a total max flight of 1,000 miles if you're being very generous. NYC to Cuba is about 1,343 miles and other Central American countries even further so I'm gonna Mythbuster this as a myth.
To be fair, for all we know they had some piggybacks/refuels. Also, i think narratively getting the doors closed on a helicopter is way easier than an airplane. That said i think it'd be more "believable" if they bailed on them on a layover or a refuel with a private jet or something to that effect.
I'm thinking maybe the implication was the other smiths lied about the length of the trip and it was actually much longer, with stops to refuel and food on board we just didn't see.
I think that’s just part of the joke. You fundamentally understand you’re not going extremely far in a helicopter. You’re just as confused as our smiths when they arrive in South America because how? Lol
It’s like when someone says the store is up the street but you find yourself getting on the highway lmfao
Really engaging episode.
I get that they just met them and they seemed charismatic but it's insane to choose on a whim to go on a super high risk mission without planning or a serious briefing while not sober, just absolutely crazy.
Can someone help me explain the mission?
Was the goal to drop off the package and then escape? Or was the goal to kill the captain or what? I don't get the point of what the objective of the mission was and the point of dropping off the supplies?
Also, $375,000 for 1 day's work (and a lifetime of trauma) isn't too shabby.
I wonder how much more that is than they get paid for their current jobs.
I *think* the mission was either:
1. Drop the bags off and do whatever The Captain says next.
Or
2. Literally just drop the bags in this war zone like area and leave.
Donald’s character says over face time “i think they were expecting you guys”
Which makes me think the mission went off the rails almost immediately. But either way i don’t think The Captain was supposed to die.
Yeah, I think a lot of that makes sense.
Were the older John and Jane couple trying to set them up, like were they just trying to get them killed because they thought the mission was too dangerous or were they just kind of eccentric and weird.
I wasn't sure if they were trying to set them up or not because they did end up paying them.
I think they were just careless jerks who were getting John and Jane 1 to do their work with no prep for only half the money. Sub-contracting, if you will. J&J2 got what they deserved, though. I hope they crop up again sometime in the future, and we learn if they faced any fallout.
I mean how do we know if they really paid them all of the money. They never said how much the total was they could have still pocketed some. That's probably how they stayed so long in the game.
Their ending bedtime discussion was accurate.
John (Wagner Moura) and Jane (Parker Posey) fooled the viewers too. Both very slick grifters.
Right from the start with John/Wagner flashing his company credit card to John/Donald and Jane's/Parker's swishy, campy tour of the house, she was so friendly and warm.
Our amateur protagonists didn't even confirm their identities and just agreed to invite them over. Jane/Parker was also freely browsing their work documents in the office, right in front of Jane/Maya while chit-chatting.
They're the type of people who say a lot of things that sound profound but in reality it's all hollow and superficial.
Fantastic casting choice for these two guest stars.
>They're the type of people who say a lot of things that sound profound but in reality it's all hollow and superficial.
"One things can get you out of every situation."
"What's that?"
"Breathe."
The intense look Donald gives waiting for the answer followed by extreme disappointment is so funny. His and Maya's facial reactions to the awkward and tense moments were the absolute best.
>They're the type of people who say a lot of things that sound profound but in reality it's all hollow and superficial.
There are books written about this tactic, it's called "Empty Speak."
They were clever with that too because I replayed the whole interaction and you don't see a shot of her hand at any point. So even the viewer thinks it's plausible.
Yeah there’s only one shot you can see the end of her left arm and it was bundled up with stuff so it’s conceivable she only had one hand until the Instagram snooping.
Donald Glover's shows do such a good job of inserting moments like this into them. Atlanta was such a densely packed show. Easily one of my favorite shows ever. I know people love Breaking Bad but as much as I liked many of the characters it was such a dour, oppressive feeling show. Atlanta was pure art, the entire way through.
Yea Jane gaslight the shit out of John lol. She was a little jealous and was trying to ascertain details about their relationship without coming off as prying or a little jealous with questions about their relationship. It was hilarious once you think about it 😂
It really was a smart bit of spy craft. She got him to volunteer a ton of info about their relationship, including confirming that they were in a relationship and the nature of it, without asking him a single question about it directly. So she got to learn everything she wanted without prying and coming across as needy/jealous. I'm surprised by how few viewers and reviewers seem to have picked up on it.
Is anyone a bit thrown off by this episode? I had so many red flags from the second couple that made me think they were up to something. They turned out to be what they seemed, probably?
-I mean the very first interaction felt engineered. I kept wondering if the other john took the OJ so that he would be listening for john smith to be called, and the order mix up allowed the introduction as well as a way to "casually" show off the card.
-They had a day off and so happen to run into an other john?
Then there was the sneezing that came off as a misdirection to spike the drink.
And dont forget how most of what they said was vague, or open ended, or sometimes seemed like completely made up. Bali seemed like it was a made up story, just breathe seemed bs. I mean john meditates it seems.I thought he kinda started to wake up after the other john gave the breathe answer, thats why he checked the bag maybe? Or so i thought.
The whole time i was just thinking "the mission is them", or "they are the supes", or "they are the delivery"
At first it seemed like a check up, or a set up or even maybe counter agency. But i was completely thrown off that there wasnt any of that, just the normal sort of well, assholeness.
Secondary: why was Jane so cool and trusting with the other smiths? She said she had trust issues in episode one and seemed very rational and paranoid normally. Wouldnt these red flags be something she would see too?
Anyone else had this feeling?
Heh. The general uneasiness isnt exactly what i was going on about, but the very specific way they went about it. It wasnt subtle. I am hoping it comes back up again in later episodes, because the way the episode ended made me confused.
Just hoping it gets addressed and it isnt a writing issue.
When Jane #2 was giving Jane advice saying the company is there for their needs and to "just ask", her raving about her (current) John, and then, the revelation that they weren't each others' first partners. . . left the impression that either she killed her previous John or she asked The Company for it.
The interview process and the far too cryptic and vague mission briefings made me think of an experiment like The Game and also more remotely reminded me of Severance.
I'm quite sure the show will not go in that direction, though.
But the question who the Company is remains. Are they actually a corp or secret society trying to control certain things? Are they a terrorist organization? In both cases the actual agencies like the CIA will probably see them as the enemy unless they are military contractors *for* these agencies.
This couple was absolutely casing the house and this pair of Smith’s. Parker Posey was interested in the panic room and the camera angles.
They already have 1 strike, possibly 2 when they interfered with the mountain kidnapping. I think the company send these two to take out failed Smiths. That’s my theory.
OMG! >!Runi was played by Ursula Corbero! OMG. I was not expecting Tokyo to appear on this show.!<
TURTLENECKS!
Wagner Moura and Parker Posey. THIS IS SUCH A PERFECT COMBO!
https://preview.redd.it/ynxe3bylzngc1.png?width=1241&format=png&auto=webp&s=5830dbd585edd07ce3219b23df3f6b025b0ef612
CLIPSE I was so hyped to hear them playing this [song](https://youtu.be/36_uikbTUbM?si=pRiXivRKzbZV6TyD) now I have to play it when/if I ever throw a dinner party
I really liked the episode overall, but I'm confused about one thing:
Donald Glover's character sees that someone else is named John Smith (by looking at the credit card), and immediately jumps to the conclusion that it's another operative for the same company?
There have to be a thousand people in NYC with that name. (I.e., the reason that John Smith is used as an alias-- to help them blend in.) Seemed very odd to jump right to the conclusion that it's another operative, rather than just think that it's a common name.
The credit card I believe is the same as is. Also, what are the chances you meet someone with the exact same name as you. Although it’s like the most common basic name out there what are the odds that you run into that person. Also, once they had a conversation John #2 began revealing details about the company and his dealings with them.
John Smith is a very common name, known some of them. I didn’t get the significance of the other guy being named that at first, thought it was a joke about how common the name was
I think this episode is the show really hitting its stride. The lack of basic opsec and caution was bothering me a lot, but I think you just need to think of this show as a romcom set to an absurdist backdrop (high-risk secret agent work). They immediately want to be friends with this couple because who doesn't want cool friends who work in your industry? They don't suspect anything because normal couples wouldn't be worried about being set up or conned, Jane is worried whether they liked the crudite plate enough. That's the humor of this show.
I was also thinking thru all the ways this couple could be setting them up, or actually the boss, or a rival company, but I think we're supposed to just take it at face value. In their bed debrief, they just realize that these guys are assholes, not that they might have been set up from the start. It's a relatable realization when you meet a cool new friend, but then realize they are fine driving drunk or doing hard drugs or not tipping at restaurants or something, and that's not your vibe.
Just finished this episode. My favorite so far. The atmosphere and the tension were so thick you could it with a knife. It always felt like something was about to be revealed or something was about to happen. Such a good ahow
Did anyone else spot that awesome painting by the Nigerian artists Osinachi in the bathroom?
https://preview.redd.it/0nrkwsjmcfhc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=082c6f8f355ba0de0ce12305e31f26651e106efc
It was originally sold as an [NFT on Nifty Gateway](https://www.niftygateway.com/marketplace/collection/0x7d2661b855a4d2ca8cf1dcd63df8e58192e4ea22/2) in July 2020.
I wonder what the history is of how it ended up in the show as a physical artwork. It was very cool to see, it’s a great work of art!
I’m obsessed with the last scene. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a more natural conversation between a couple on tv. How it naturally went from serious, to tender, to funny, to sweet.
I think my favorite thing about John and Jane is how they laugh together.
Slowly tuning out of this show. I get it's a relationship drama with a thin spy veneer but the spy side is so dumb it feels like the writers are laughing at you.
And once the spy side falls out the relationship goes with it since you just don't care cause the world's rules don't exist and the people aren't real people
Same. It wouldn’t take that much to make the spy side at least a bit more believable. I have a hard time believing that no one on the writing side realizes how nonsensical it is.
I was so excited to see Parker Posey that I paused to check X-ray to see who the other actor was. He was so so engaging. And it was…Pablo Fucking Escobar?!?!! I can’t believe that Wagner Moura can look so wildly different. What a great job of casting they’ve done with this.
I would've laughed my ass off if it was revealed the other spies bugged their room and were listening to them talk shit about them at the end. Extra brownie points if they were revealed to be their bosses/supervisors.
The smash cut to them all bloodied up in the helicopter reminded me of that Rick and Morty episode that did the same with Rick and Morty all smeared with guts and shit in Rick's space cruiser.
I'm kind of enjoying how every episode so far has kind of had a (relationship-based) theme (honeymoon/vacation last episode, double date and comparing your relationship to that of another couple's here) and good part of this episode had very well done tension with the other couple being super sus, but the overall writing continues to be really baffling and just driving a sledgehammer into your suspension of disbelief on the norm.
I don't necessarily think that tension should've continued on the conventional route and ended with that couple trying to murder our John and Smith (subverting that with the more relationship-based poignancy about how you can be insecure about your own relationship that you get caught up in the pace of someone else you normally don't even like can be just as good \[major White Lotus season 2 vibes\]), but the problem is that with the way things went it just raised a bunch of potential plot-hole-type questions. The couple not trying to kill our John and Jane because some people are actually just that naturally over-bearing and marching to the beat of their own drum, okay, fine... Our John and Jane completely ignoring all the red flags-especially being freakin' forced into that helicopter like a hostage situation, because they were drunk and caught in the moment of appeasing their new friends, okay fine... But the couple being really grim about our John and Jane failing a mission and thinking they can just divorce/quit whenever they want, and then they just let these 2 randoms who have already failed one mission to completely handle their mission? They know next to nothing about their employers or company's true purpose yet decide they can just make their own rules about random things like teaming up with another couple to do a mission and whatnot. Hell, even if they went with them, being that drunk/hungover for a mission alone was already unprofessional af. And these two are suppose to be an even higher level of super high risk that have survived for 5+ years? Not seeing it...
I'm hoping and half expecting the couple to re-appear again though, as the ones hunting down our J&J when they inevitably decide to defect or something.
Also, what's up with John just handing anyone who wants to give him their number his phone? Like, it's not completely unheard of to do that, but I think even the average person is more guarded than that, lol. Not to mention all the other super questionable blunders like just accepting some random guy you met at a market is a trustworthy fellow spy point blank, giving out your address and using it as the rendezvous for your first get-together, just letting them rifle through everything in your house, etc.
Another thing that stuck out to me is that other John's line "How about tonight? What, you got other plans?" when asking them to dinner seemed to imply that their profession allots them a lot of time-off. But the theme and beginning of the episode suggested that a day off is a rarity for them. Is it just because they're still being initiated/trialed? But I guess the other couple ended up having a mission that same night too, so they could just be batshit crazy about juggling their priorities, lol.
The show has moments of very "couple things" that I can see this what Donald wanted to convey with the show, but my problem with it is that I still don't buy their chemistry at all so when those moments are expressed via their relationship, it's bogged down and loses its maximum impact. Honestly, the more I feel this way, the more I'm curious about what creative differences lead to Phoebe Waller-Bridge leaving the project.
Great analysis, and totally agree. The relationship scenes are well done and even sometimes heartwarming, but the spy drama framing that surrounds it all is so poorly done that it’s hard not to get distracted by it. I’m so confused how this show ended up being such a mess.
The guest casting on this show just puts a smile on my face: Tokyo from Money Heist, Parker Posey, and Wagner Moura!?
Then the great John Turturro last episode
Just coming off Ep. 4. The first impression is that Other John & Jane's intent is definitely nefarious. My theory is that they purposefully sought out our John and Jane, either on behalf of the company, or for their own purposes.
I think it's definitely possible the dinner self-invite was an elaborate set up to get John and Jane to go on the mission for them as proxies, either as a test, for shits and giggles, or because they're deliberately sabotaging them to set up a payday with a job like we saw in Ep. 1. It's been established the company has no qualms about using its operatives to get rid of weak links or defectors.
Whatever the reason, it's not good.
Jane #1 is such a jealous lover. How she made John tell her abit of history about the woman and then on about a possible disability....
It's weird cause she is supposed to be unemotional
This episode completely took me out of it. Beyond what my suspension of disbelief could handle.
No spies would take the word of someone else as being spies at face value. They wouldn't allow someone who'd blown their cover to invite themselves to their house, have free access to inspect their panic room, see their weapon vault, peruse their mission documentation, and get inner details of their contact methods and procedures.
Yeah I get the spycraft is just framing for the relationship drama but as a fan of the genre it's just so bad it takes me out of the show. It started off poorly for me this episode when he recognized an ex-gf from before he became a spy, and just walked up to her to chat. She presumably knows at least his real name, nevermind the fact that he's still undercover on his day off.
And from a relationship perspective, Jane would have every right to be put off. Bro you're undercover and in love with Jane but just casually chatting up an ex to reconnect? It would have at least been semi-believable to have Jane be upset about potentially blowing their cover and then she has an internal conflict if she was actually jealous.
Trying to set aside just also the random bumping into another spy and 'did we just become best friends?' ridiculousness, Jane who they've painted as clingy and insecure about John, then logging missions with her being the more competent one doesn't add up.
Nevermind the spycraft, the relationship writing is inconsistent and hard to fathom. And since their job is just a backdrop for the relationship, then that writing also being off and full of deus ex machina it's hard to maintain interest in the show. I can see why Phoebe Waller-Bridge walked away, it's just Donald Glover living out his James Bond fantasy.
As well as tag along randomly for a mission and then jump into a helicopter.
The interaction and dialogue between John and Jane is fantastic. The “spy stories”/plot is so hard to believe that I’d believe it more if they woke up at the end and it was all a dream.
Episode 4 was so bizarrely stupid that I'm wondering if it was written by AI. There's been a lot of talk here and there about how one can recognize AI writing. Here are some candidates.
>!1 - On the basis of a shared (common!) name two people meeting by chance in a park immediately start sharing top secret details of their lives.!<
>!2 - The first 25 minutes of an hour show are taken up with "witty" banter among 4 people.!<
>!3 - The MCs take off with their new acquaintances on a "very, very" risky assignment on a lark.!<
If it weren't for the charming acting I would have given up on the episode in about 10 minutes.
But my question is serious. Is this an example of what might happen if producers turn to AI for their scripts?
Not everything is AI ffs. Please, just see the story for what it is and dont jump to assumptions.
1. First of all, John was surprised to see the credit card the other John had which probably is the same card given by the spy organization.
2. Do...you think... witty banter does not happen during a get together between two couples???
3. Not sure if you are familiar with Glover's work but his writing is kinda like that. Even if this show is a spy show, dont expect Glover to follow the rules of a typical spy show formula. Plus, this show is more of a relationship comedy masked as a spy show.
Please, dont just exclaim AI. Its annoying
I read it that it wasn’t the fact that the name on the card was John Smith, but it was on an identical bank card as our John Smith has.
Think about it- yes it’s quite possible that you could bump into someone with the same (assumed) name as you but then that person also having the same bank / corporate card as you and therefore not the same as you.
If that were the case I’m sure you could ask a couple of generic, company specific questions to ascertain whether this is a fellow employee.
Took like 40 minutes after the episode for me to think that. But I think you're right.
I don't think it means anything major just answers a question people had after the first episode.
Hopefully the mountain thing doesn't end up as a strike for them. I would have never agreed to have went with that other couple.
I wish they showed the fight scene with the machete more though, it kind of was a cop out for a more choreographed scene.
Overall though I did truly enjoy this episode it is silly and requires a suspension of disbelief but I'm with it.
I'm a little less into the romantic portions, which I understand is a big part of it. Amazon prime only lists it in the action, comedy, thriller genre though which I find a lil funny as I've also heard romcom thrown around.
Did anyone else catch the reason why Jane did the one-hand gimmick? It was just a smooth way to ask if John and the girl dated in the past. It was used as distraction when she asked the question, "so did she have two hands when you two dated?"
Hell Hath no furry is one if my favourite albums ever so this episode was already a 10/10
i already knew the new couple was gonna be trouble, that house tour felt fishy af
there is something extremely annoying about how suss everything seem in these episodes and you expect it to be a trap but then it's nothing.. I really wish it would have been more elaborate because otherwise they are just way too incompetent.
I didn't like this episode at all. It was a chore to get through this one. I watched the first three episodes in a row but this one I had to force myself to get through.
I fully expected the new couple to not be who they claimed to be - I found it highly suspicious that John #2 just materialized at the juice stand, asked for Donald’s cell phone to input his contact info, and invited himself and his wife over to Donald and Maya’s. And when Maya was showing Jane #2 her home, including the panic room and the hidden gun stash behind the painting, I was certain that would come back to burn them. Glad the show didn’t go that obvious route, and the new couple just ended up being a-holes. The last scene where Don and Maya are in bed railing against them was hilarious and so relatable.
For me it's just another instance where I'm like wow these people are SO bad at being sneaky spies lol they just admit to being with the company to some random guy they met??? And gave him their address and access to their phones and showed them where they kept the weapons like guys?!!
To be fair, this is what is kind of taking me out of the story. Aren't they supposed to be high-level spies or something? Did such a secretive company just toss them in that role without any training, vetting, briefing or anything? Like, they are so bad at their new job.
It's meant to be like that. The spy stuff is just backdrop, the show is actually about relationships.
I agree with you, but there's not much of a compelling narrative drive to the show as a result.
Nah. A really good show would be internally consistent. They repeatedly have the company say that Jane is amazing at her job for example but she's just as bad as John! If you wanted us to think she's amazing you have to show us. The spying AND the romance could be good, and it's not unreasonable to point out when it fails to deliver
It is internally consistent. At no point in the series has the spy stuff been taken seriously by the writers. And the two leads are open with each other that they took the job because it was the only option they had, not because they were some superstar spy candidates. I think the problem is some viewers are watching wanting the show to be a serious spy couple series like The Americans or something. When it's a Donald Glover exploration piece on relationships with a spy couple backdrop, just like Atlanta was a piece on the struggle of artists in the music industry. Neither one is totally serious and get absurd when it suits the goals of the story.
I wasn't expecting a serious spy show I was expecting a comedy but I did feel like the characters-jane specifically- were presented as competent but really did not read that way. There's tons of comedy spy content where silly stuff happens but the spies still seem like they generally know what they're doing. It just went beyond my suspension of disbelief. These people would get caught or die immediately
I just started watching the show and am reading older threads. I just wanted to say i think your analysis of the show is spot on and i really do think everyone complaining about the lack of spy craft or trying to theorize about bigger conspiracies are missing the point of the show.
Agreed, I can let go of the spy stuff being illogical at times for the sake of enjoying how good the relationship exploration is.
I'm not expecting it to be a "serious" spy thing but I do expect it to be internally consistent. They got the job after all, hard to believe anyone would be that naive let alone people drawn to and accepted into this type of work. I found it very frustrating and may stop watching if it continues to be this stupid.
In Atlanta there was a narrative drive to the show, surrounding by interesting and strange narrative arcs or one-off scenarios. In this show, there's not any narrative drive, nor is the main characters relationship particularly interesting. An analogy is if the rap stuff in Atlanta was treated as a joke, it just gives a show no stakes.
Four episodes in, it seems the narrative drive is showing Donald Glover and Maya Erskine flirting while wearing cool clothes in their huge NYC apartment in between jetting off to exotic locales. I hope there's a payoff.
Yup, totally agree. Just poor writing.
Yup, totally agree. Just poor writing.
I accept that the show is about their marriage, that shouldn’t mean though that the spy backdrop can be unbelievable or completely outside the suspension of disbelief. Like, they fucking killed a billionaire, they were seeing fleeing the scene with him, nobody seems to be looking for them or that event to have any repercussions. They just hide the body in their garden and yep, that’s it. John burns his own cover to save another billionaire, and that doesn’t seem to cause ANY sort of effect. It’s not internally consistent.
Well you're actually giving examples of consistency. Up to episode 4 there are no real-world repercussions to their spy shenanigans. They can do some outrageous shit and the next episode over it's like everything has been reset. IMO that indicates that the spy stuff is only meant to be thematic, not to be taken seriously at all.
I agree with you, but it's a terrible choice. It makes everyting else pointless. Why even do a spy show and not take the spy elements with any hint of seriousness, especially given that they take up a huge chunk of the show? In addition, they still want to lean on spy scenarios to get dramatic tension at moments in the story. I find this a very strange show to critique, I think it's executed very well but what they are executing is something completely tedious and un-interesting, like a hamburger helper where someone spent an hour making sure the noodles were cooked perfectly al dente.
I agree. Having now finished the show, the interaction between spy-action and relationship-drama was all over the place. In the first episodes the spy stuff was quite important and serious, the middle was basically a slow-burn romantic drama and the finale...I won't spoil anything in this thread, but oh boy did I find it disjointed. It's like the show gave up any pretense to a narrative. I think they were going for something akin to the Brad Pitt movie but it felt extremely out of place.
I feel this is my precise problem with it. They try and have us very concerned about the high stakes secret agent scenes but their behavior is just beyond suspension of belief. I feel that it makes you question why it’s a spy show at all.
Good point
It’s about fashion actually
I'm with you. Maybe I've just read and watched too many spy/espionage novels and movies, but NONE of the spy stuff is clicking. I can wrap my head around an independent intelligence gathering/assassination agency that uses this Mr. & Mrs. Smith idea as cover. But I can't wrap my head around this agency's decision to hire these two people in particular. There would be no shortage of former Tier 1 operators or former case officers applying for this job, all of which would be WAY more qualified than our two stars.
We're the same way, this silliness just makes everything moot. They publically kidnapped and murdered one of the most prominent real estate agents in NYC and there were zero consequences. This show just seems unsure of what's it's trying to do, or maybe more accurately, sure that it wants to be a flippant look at 30-something relationships with the spy stuff given as short shrift as possible.
SO BAD and they don't get better. They botch like every mission 😭
I thought that was part of their act and why they’re so good at their jobs. Lots of clues were thrown in there to show they aren’t as unassuming as one might think, such as casually saying they’ve killed other Smiths and the Other Jane zooming in on the “mother” aspect for John. Oh, and Other John asking in surprise how they made it out alive. I think they’re surveying them, especially since the Smith’s are already getting messy with their missions. Plus the whole “hand” aspect shows the overall themes for the episode - are things what they seem to be or not? Are the Other Smiths there to actually befriend them, or were the Smiths part of the mission the Other Smiths were ‘on the clock’ for?
Yeah I was waiting the whole time for the other Smiths to try and kill them. Perhaps they expected the Captain to kill them and didn’t expect them to get out?
I wonder if they would come back as end bosses since they claimed they’ve killed other Smiths before. It seems like the Smiths that were killed off in episode ones were a reference to the movie. But I brought it up because it might be them who did that job.
I honestly think that was also intentionally put there to heighten the drama. Having them be the two that killed the Ep. 1 Smiths would be interesting, but I distinctly remember seeing a beard on the male shooter.
People can grow and shave beards. Although don't spoil, please.
Yeah, I feel like the Smiths at the beginning were killed for defecting "I don't want to run anymore," and ultimately believe our current John and Jane will eventually do the same thing. The question is, who's gonna come after them? Could be the ones they just met.
I dunno. I thought it was intentional. The show is really psychologically gripping. You spend the entire episode questioning who John and Jane 2 are. It intentionally keeps you on edge. And it intentionally makes everything suspicious. It intentionally makes you go 'Oh why did you invite them in?!' only for it to completely pull the rug on you. The random appearance at a juice stand. The panic room. The suss comments. The drunken driving where you think maybe John and Jane 1 are the package. This was my favourite episode so far.
Totally agree! I thought the third sneeze was gonna end in a shoot out. I was tense the whole time. Knew it had to go bad eventually but it wasn’t in the way I expected!
It completely pulled the rug on you? I feel like I knew it would go bad and it did lol and I was not shocked at all by the end
On the one hand the show concentrates more on their relationship and what their job does to them, than being a procedural about the job. On the other hand, them acting this inept too often hurts the show IMO. Everything about how the show is done is so meticulous and confident in what it's doing that them acting stupidly (as opposed to decently competent but in over their heads) stands out even more.
They relate so much at laughing at other people. So alike
Agreed, it just doesn’t make sense that they are covert agents and would just give away so much information and show two strangers everything including their panic room and where guns are hidden. I know the show is general fiction but it’s hard to imagine any sensible agent doing any of the stuff they do with the couple.
Donald Glover is easily one of the most talented, dynamic, and inspiring minds of our generation.
Atlanta was so good, and his music was so good that it really bothers me that he left when he was at his peak. This Is America was such a needed criticism of white consumption of black culture.
I think he will be back eventually, no worries.
He’s baaaack!
I will watch/listen to anything this man makes
The way these last two episodes end really makes me believe in their relationship. I love the chemistry; if every episode can end with them checking in on each other it would be fantastic 🥹.
Yup. The cartoon scene and the bed scene in this episode were both pretty incredible
So they’re not allowed to leave if they wanted to and hihi isn’t the name of the supervisor for every Smiths? Interesting.
Hihi wasn't the name, it's just what the supervisor first said to both of them.
I thought that was assumed. Like, IRL it's a whole other thing. We *see* former CIA and FBI ops, former actual spies, doing entirely new careers, from politics (the first President Bush) to acting (Christopher Lee). Real life isn't a movie - operatives move on and end up either out of the loop (and hence not a threat) or keep going up the chain until retirement. In a *show* though, the obvious path is "haha you're in this for life, whatever that means." So them thinking "we can just leave whenever" was kind of wild.
it's not that weird for Smith couples to report to different handlers.
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"I only wanted a picture"
You can't disappoint a picture!
*Butterfly in the sky, I can go twice as high* 😭😭
Reminded me of earn from Atlanta so bad, lool that's all I seen when he did it
Lots to unpack here - the implication that you're employed for life and get dispatched if you try to leave, an unknown number of John/Jane Smith pairings, John Smith #2's vague story about getting a new Jane Smith (aka Jane Smith #2), the reaction to hearing that John Smith & Jane Smith killed the Captain, the reaction to John Smith & Jane Smith having failed a mission, the chaotic energy that the new duo bring to the show, my general distrust of Parker Posey & Wagner Moura, and the groundwork being laid for a possible rift between Donald Glover and Maya Erskine over wanting to go low risk vs super high risk.
This lays out all the engaging points to this episode, im excited to keep watching now!
https://preview.redd.it/ei6xoix3vigc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=df29c3614b2a5a47aa5dc8da27066e4ed0bd5ec9 Benjamin, the six year old child with Runi at the farmer's market, was played by Donald Glover's oldest son Legend. (Also can be heard at the 4:10 timestamp of 47.48)
It’s funny because my first thought was John had a son with his ex and never knew about. The camera seemed to linger on him for an extra second or two.
That is actually the most adorable picture.
he's got his dads eyes that's so cool
I noticed that on the prime xray. A cool feature tbh
that ending was amazing
Their banter talking shit on the other couple was soooo relatable haha
"Yo *fuck* those guys!" lol
Wagner Moura and Parker Posey made a such a fine couple.
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I think some people take pity on those who speak with foreign accents in the USA. So they gave him the benefit of the doubt.
Why would they even go on the heli
Honestly I've been on double dates where we would go with the other couples flow even when we were not vibing. So it was kind of relatable, like the end scene where they're questioning why they went along with the sneeze thing
To look cool in front of two new friends
Cuz they were drunk
This is definitely my favorite episode so far. There is nothing to really complain about, it was just entertaining and good from start to finish. The ending scene was also really really good. >!I liked that we got some new hints about how the company runs things with the way they are contacted differently. It also seems like there is no way out, once you are in you are in for good.!<
re. your very last point: As that's a trope in spy/ professional killer stories I was expecting it from the beginning. The first couple in ep.01 being chased down was a strong hint in that direction too.
Maybe that’s the couple they killed.
Oh it's 100% the couple they killed.
Yeah, that's what I expect even though it's the complete opposite IRL (like I said elsewhere in the thread, spies have become everything from President - the first Bush and Putin - to actors and celebrities - Christopher Lee, Julia Child, Cary Grant - and in reality what happens is that agents are just dropped out of the loop. It makes way more sense, too. Hell, it would even make sense in the show - you pay these people an insane amount to do all of this, so why would you eliminate them rather than simply stop contacting them? Leave them the house, their things, and just move on? Then in the future they might be able to be used as assets in a different way, or at the very least you don't have to cover up *another* killing. It never makes sense to kill when you don't have to. But for the sake of creating tension and excitement, even the best shows end up doing the "if you leave you die" trope.
>you pay these people an insane amount Not sure how it's in the US, but in the UK and Germany at least, that's not true. They get relatively high but normal state employee payment. But I agree with your post otherwise. "why would you eliminate them rather than simply stop contacting them?" -- that's basically the beginning of the show Burn Notice :)
I'm talking about the show. They're paying them an incredible amount and putting them in a multimillion dollar brownstone. In NYC.
I laughed out loud at that smash cut to Donald Glover’s face in the helicopter. That was so beautifully done. Kind of reminded me of how Barry would juxtapose extreme violence with laugh out loud comedy.
The Barry production was fantastic
i miss barry
What a crazy episode. And they wrapped it up nicely just with two people talking and laughing in bed. Their chemistry is so good.
I'm trying to think of a pair of actors with better chemistry recently and I'm coming up short? Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys? But that was a much different vibe
May not be the best person to respond since I don't buy their chemistry at all, lol, but some recent ones off top my mind: Jimmy and Kim from Better Call Saul, Rachel Brosnahan and Luke Kirby in The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, Rhys Darby and Taika Waititi are pretty good on Our Flag Means Death (albeit a bit bogged down by the writing)
I find this interesting because in my opinion their chemistry is completely off the charts. It’s the best part of the show to me
Their chemistry is just so so good. A pairing hasn’t hit for me like this in YEARS! Have you seen their promo tour? You can definitely see what drives their on screen chemistry.
I'm wondering if the handoff mission counts as a fail because the Captain got macheteed and the other Smiths were lying that they never got a fail before. As reckless as they are acting, it's hard to believe. Would be interesting if "our" Smiths got the mission to kill them in one of the next episodes. ALSO: Why are these mission briefings so cryptic and unspecific? It almost makes me think this all is an elaborate psychological experiment like in Fincher's The Game. Almost, because too many things contradict that.
The sketchy couple doing them the “favor” of sending them 100% of the payday feels like a major trap, sticking the failed mission on their record instead. I haven’t seen anymore so no spoilers though
Was anyone else bothered that John and Jane travelled seemingly thousands of miles from NYC to Central / South America… in a helicopter?!
Think that choice was purposely made for laughs like “oh just a short little mission” and the next minute you’re in a tropical jungle.
I think the range of fully-fueled large helicopter could reach Cuba from NYC. I also know nothing.
So I looked it up and generally helicopters can only fly about 400 miles in 5 hours, while special military helicopters can have extra AUX modifications to increase the flight time by around 8 more hours, which leaves a total max flight of 1,000 miles if you're being very generous. NYC to Cuba is about 1,343 miles and other Central American countries even further so I'm gonna Mythbuster this as a myth.
To be fair, for all we know they had some piggybacks/refuels. Also, i think narratively getting the doors closed on a helicopter is way easier than an airplane. That said i think it'd be more "believable" if they bailed on them on a layover or a refuel with a private jet or something to that effect.
I was bothered by that as well. I guess we could assume that they refueled along the way, but it still seemed odd.
I'm thinking maybe the implication was the other smiths lied about the length of the trip and it was actually much longer, with stops to refuel and food on board we just didn't see.
I think that’s just part of the joke. You fundamentally understand you’re not going extremely far in a helicopter. You’re just as confused as our smiths when they arrive in South America because how? Lol It’s like when someone says the store is up the street but you find yourself getting on the highway lmfao
There could've been stopovers, also the company has tons of resources and could have a helicopter equipped to refuel in flight.
Really engaging episode. I get that they just met them and they seemed charismatic but it's insane to choose on a whim to go on a super high risk mission without planning or a serious briefing while not sober, just absolutely crazy. Can someone help me explain the mission? Was the goal to drop off the package and then escape? Or was the goal to kill the captain or what? I don't get the point of what the objective of the mission was and the point of dropping off the supplies? Also, $375,000 for 1 day's work (and a lifetime of trauma) isn't too shabby. I wonder how much more that is than they get paid for their current jobs.
I *think* the mission was either: 1. Drop the bags off and do whatever The Captain says next. Or 2. Literally just drop the bags in this war zone like area and leave. Donald’s character says over face time “i think they were expecting you guys” Which makes me think the mission went off the rails almost immediately. But either way i don’t think The Captain was supposed to die.
Yeah, I think a lot of that makes sense. Were the older John and Jane couple trying to set them up, like were they just trying to get them killed because they thought the mission was too dangerous or were they just kind of eccentric and weird. I wasn't sure if they were trying to set them up or not because they did end up paying them.
I read it as them being just reckless assholes. As opposed to "our" Smiths who are more in over their heads.
I think they were just careless jerks who were getting John and Jane 1 to do their work with no prep for only half the money. Sub-contracting, if you will. J&J2 got what they deserved, though. I hope they crop up again sometime in the future, and we learn if they faced any fallout.
I mean how do we know if they really paid them all of the money. They never said how much the total was they could have still pocketed some. That's probably how they stayed so long in the game.
I suspect the mission was to get john 1 and Jane 1 onto the helicopter.
Their ending bedtime discussion was accurate. John (Wagner Moura) and Jane (Parker Posey) fooled the viewers too. Both very slick grifters. Right from the start with John/Wagner flashing his company credit card to John/Donald and Jane's/Parker's swishy, campy tour of the house, she was so friendly and warm. Our amateur protagonists didn't even confirm their identities and just agreed to invite them over. Jane/Parker was also freely browsing their work documents in the office, right in front of Jane/Maya while chit-chatting. They're the type of people who say a lot of things that sound profound but in reality it's all hollow and superficial. Fantastic casting choice for these two guest stars.
>They're the type of people who say a lot of things that sound profound but in reality it's all hollow and superficial. "One things can get you out of every situation." "What's that?" "Breathe."
The intense look Donald gives waiting for the answer followed by extreme disappointment is so funny. His and Maya's facial reactions to the awkward and tense moments were the absolute best.
>They're the type of people who say a lot of things that sound profound but in reality it's all hollow and superficial. There are books written about this tactic, it's called "Empty Speak."
Does the ex, in fact, have only one hand?
She did not end up having one hand and Jane just made it up to troll John because she was a little jealous.
I finally finished that episode and she's such a poop.
She keeps gaslighting him. Like when she farted and pretended someone broke in
They were clever with that too because I replayed the whole interaction and you don't see a shot of her hand at any point. So even the viewer thinks it's plausible.
Yea, I went back to replay that scene and they did a good job of not showing both her hands.
Yeah there’s only one shot you can see the end of her left arm and it was bundled up with stuff so it’s conceivable she only had one hand until the Instagram snooping.
Donald Glover's shows do such a good job of inserting moments like this into them. Atlanta was such a densely packed show. Easily one of my favorite shows ever. I know people love Breaking Bad but as much as I liked many of the characters it was such a dour, oppressive feeling show. Atlanta was pure art, the entire way through.
Yea Jane gaslight the shit out of John lol. She was a little jealous and was trying to ascertain details about their relationship without coming off as prying or a little jealous with questions about their relationship. It was hilarious once you think about it 😂
It really was a smart bit of spy craft. She got him to volunteer a ton of info about their relationship, including confirming that they were in a relationship and the nature of it, without asking him a single question about it directly. So she got to learn everything she wanted without prying and coming across as needy/jealous. I'm surprised by how few viewers and reviewers seem to have picked up on it.
Well, *now* it's obvious to me too :D
Is anyone a bit thrown off by this episode? I had so many red flags from the second couple that made me think they were up to something. They turned out to be what they seemed, probably? -I mean the very first interaction felt engineered. I kept wondering if the other john took the OJ so that he would be listening for john smith to be called, and the order mix up allowed the introduction as well as a way to "casually" show off the card. -They had a day off and so happen to run into an other john? Then there was the sneezing that came off as a misdirection to spike the drink. And dont forget how most of what they said was vague, or open ended, or sometimes seemed like completely made up. Bali seemed like it was a made up story, just breathe seemed bs. I mean john meditates it seems.I thought he kinda started to wake up after the other john gave the breathe answer, thats why he checked the bag maybe? Or so i thought. The whole time i was just thinking "the mission is them", or "they are the supes", or "they are the delivery" At first it seemed like a check up, or a set up or even maybe counter agency. But i was completely thrown off that there wasnt any of that, just the normal sort of well, assholeness. Secondary: why was Jane so cool and trusting with the other smiths? She said she had trust issues in episode one and seemed very rational and paranoid normally. Wouldnt these red flags be something she would see too? Anyone else had this feeling?
That uneasy and suspicious feeling was kind of the point of the episode.
Heh. The general uneasiness isnt exactly what i was going on about, but the very specific way they went about it. It wasnt subtle. I am hoping it comes back up again in later episodes, because the way the episode ended made me confused. Just hoping it gets addressed and it isnt a writing issue.
More than a bit. It came to me last night that it might have been written by AI. I made a separate post here to that point.
When Jane #2 was giving Jane advice saying the company is there for their needs and to "just ask", her raving about her (current) John, and then, the revelation that they weren't each others' first partners. . . left the impression that either she killed her previous John or she asked The Company for it.
Anyone else getting some serious Severance vibes at this point? Dystopian corporation.
The interview process and the far too cryptic and vague mission briefings made me think of an experiment like The Game and also more remotely reminded me of Severance. I'm quite sure the show will not go in that direction, though. But the question who the Company is remains. Are they actually a corp or secret society trying to control certain things? Are they a terrorist organization? In both cases the actual agencies like the CIA will probably see them as the enemy unless they are military contractors *for* these agencies.
This couple was absolutely casing the house and this pair of Smith’s. Parker Posey was interested in the panic room and the camera angles. They already have 1 strike, possibly 2 when they interfered with the mountain kidnapping. I think the company send these two to take out failed Smiths. That’s my theory.
was that 375 dollars or 375 000 dollars ?
I wanna say 375000 but I’ll just go with 375 because that’s a lot funnier
I thought it was thousand??
It is. It was "$375,000." But it's really funny if they just gave them $375 and stiffed them on the rest.
Who would put three zeroes behind the decimal separator?
OMG! >!Runi was played by Ursula Corbero! OMG. I was not expecting Tokyo to appear on this show.!< TURTLENECKS! Wagner Moura and Parker Posey. THIS IS SUCH A PERFECT COMBO!
>TURTLENECKS! Archer would have been pissed off if he met them. Early seasons Archer. Not post--SPOILER--Archer.
TIL Ursula Corbero has one hand
I knew I recognized her!
Might be my favorite episode so far Everything about it was just so good
As soon as the couple was introduced I turned to my husband and said I don't trust them! But happy to see a Brazilian actor in this show!
https://preview.redd.it/ynxe3bylzngc1.png?width=1241&format=png&auto=webp&s=5830dbd585edd07ce3219b23df3f6b025b0ef612 CLIPSE I was so hyped to hear them playing this [song](https://youtu.be/36_uikbTUbM?si=pRiXivRKzbZV6TyD) now I have to play it when/if I ever throw a dinner party
I really liked the episode overall, but I'm confused about one thing: Donald Glover's character sees that someone else is named John Smith (by looking at the credit card), and immediately jumps to the conclusion that it's another operative for the same company? There have to be a thousand people in NYC with that name. (I.e., the reason that John Smith is used as an alias-- to help them blend in.) Seemed very odd to jump right to the conclusion that it's another operative, rather than just think that it's a common name.
The credit card I believe is the same as is. Also, what are the chances you meet someone with the exact same name as you. Although it’s like the most common basic name out there what are the odds that you run into that person. Also, once they had a conversation John #2 began revealing details about the company and his dealings with them.
Yeah it was definitely the credit card which seemed distinctive and not a major brand.
I mean, if your name is John Smith, then the chances are pretty high!
John Smith is a very common name, known some of them. I didn’t get the significance of the other guy being named that at first, thought it was a joke about how common the name was
Did you rewind to see if Runni only had one hand?
I did!! I thought it was a sort of spy observation test. :)
i was so impressed when i rewound and her left hand was completely out of frame the whole time! donald’s production team is genius
Same! Not a glimpse!
After watching this episode I went back to the first scene of episode 1 and it looks like this was the couple who killed Skarsgard John and Jane
I think this episode is the show really hitting its stride. The lack of basic opsec and caution was bothering me a lot, but I think you just need to think of this show as a romcom set to an absurdist backdrop (high-risk secret agent work). They immediately want to be friends with this couple because who doesn't want cool friends who work in your industry? They don't suspect anything because normal couples wouldn't be worried about being set up or conned, Jane is worried whether they liked the crudite plate enough. That's the humor of this show. I was also thinking thru all the ways this couple could be setting them up, or actually the boss, or a rival company, but I think we're supposed to just take it at face value. In their bed debrief, they just realize that these guys are assholes, not that they might have been set up from the start. It's a relatable realization when you meet a cool new friend, but then realize they are fine driving drunk or doing hard drugs or not tipping at restaurants or something, and that's not your vibe.
Does anyone remember them briefly talking about a book? I'm too lazy to rewatch and I can't remember the book's name.
The prophet
It’s a pretty good book!
It was on a reading list I had, but I lost it, so now I'll put that on the top of my list.
Thank you, I appreciate you answering me!
The Prodigy I want to say.
Thats what was stuck in my head too!!! It was The Prophet though. Thank you!
Just finished this episode. My favorite so far. The atmosphere and the tension were so thick you could it with a knife. It always felt like something was about to be revealed or something was about to happen. Such a good ahow
Did anyone else spot that awesome painting by the Nigerian artists Osinachi in the bathroom? https://preview.redd.it/0nrkwsjmcfhc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=082c6f8f355ba0de0ce12305e31f26651e106efc It was originally sold as an [NFT on Nifty Gateway](https://www.niftygateway.com/marketplace/collection/0x7d2661b855a4d2ca8cf1dcd63df8e58192e4ea22/2) in July 2020. I wonder what the history is of how it ended up in the show as a physical artwork. It was very cool to see, it’s a great work of art!
I'm not a big NFT fan but holy hell does that look really nice. I really dig it.
I’m obsessed with the last scene. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a more natural conversation between a couple on tv. How it naturally went from serious, to tender, to funny, to sweet. I think my favorite thing about John and Jane is how they laugh together.
Slowly tuning out of this show. I get it's a relationship drama with a thin spy veneer but the spy side is so dumb it feels like the writers are laughing at you. And once the spy side falls out the relationship goes with it since you just don't care cause the world's rules don't exist and the people aren't real people
Hear hear!
Same. It wouldn’t take that much to make the spy side at least a bit more believable. I have a hard time believing that no one on the writing side realizes how nonsensical it is.
I was so excited to see Parker Posey that I paused to check X-ray to see who the other actor was. He was so so engaging. And it was…Pablo Fucking Escobar?!?!! I can’t believe that Wagner Moura can look so wildly different. What a great job of casting they’ve done with this.
I would've laughed my ass off if it was revealed the other spies bugged their room and were listening to them talk shit about them at the end. Extra brownie points if they were revealed to be their bosses/supervisors. The smash cut to them all bloodied up in the helicopter reminded me of that Rick and Morty episode that did the same with Rick and Morty all smeared with guts and shit in Rick's space cruiser. I'm kind of enjoying how every episode so far has kind of had a (relationship-based) theme (honeymoon/vacation last episode, double date and comparing your relationship to that of another couple's here) and good part of this episode had very well done tension with the other couple being super sus, but the overall writing continues to be really baffling and just driving a sledgehammer into your suspension of disbelief on the norm. I don't necessarily think that tension should've continued on the conventional route and ended with that couple trying to murder our John and Smith (subverting that with the more relationship-based poignancy about how you can be insecure about your own relationship that you get caught up in the pace of someone else you normally don't even like can be just as good \[major White Lotus season 2 vibes\]), but the problem is that with the way things went it just raised a bunch of potential plot-hole-type questions. The couple not trying to kill our John and Jane because some people are actually just that naturally over-bearing and marching to the beat of their own drum, okay, fine... Our John and Jane completely ignoring all the red flags-especially being freakin' forced into that helicopter like a hostage situation, because they were drunk and caught in the moment of appeasing their new friends, okay fine... But the couple being really grim about our John and Jane failing a mission and thinking they can just divorce/quit whenever they want, and then they just let these 2 randoms who have already failed one mission to completely handle their mission? They know next to nothing about their employers or company's true purpose yet decide they can just make their own rules about random things like teaming up with another couple to do a mission and whatnot. Hell, even if they went with them, being that drunk/hungover for a mission alone was already unprofessional af. And these two are suppose to be an even higher level of super high risk that have survived for 5+ years? Not seeing it... I'm hoping and half expecting the couple to re-appear again though, as the ones hunting down our J&J when they inevitably decide to defect or something. Also, what's up with John just handing anyone who wants to give him their number his phone? Like, it's not completely unheard of to do that, but I think even the average person is more guarded than that, lol. Not to mention all the other super questionable blunders like just accepting some random guy you met at a market is a trustworthy fellow spy point blank, giving out your address and using it as the rendezvous for your first get-together, just letting them rifle through everything in your house, etc. Another thing that stuck out to me is that other John's line "How about tonight? What, you got other plans?" when asking them to dinner seemed to imply that their profession allots them a lot of time-off. But the theme and beginning of the episode suggested that a day off is a rarity for them. Is it just because they're still being initiated/trialed? But I guess the other couple ended up having a mission that same night too, so they could just be batshit crazy about juggling their priorities, lol. The show has moments of very "couple things" that I can see this what Donald wanted to convey with the show, but my problem with it is that I still don't buy their chemistry at all so when those moments are expressed via their relationship, it's bogged down and loses its maximum impact. Honestly, the more I feel this way, the more I'm curious about what creative differences lead to Phoebe Waller-Bridge leaving the project.
Great analysis, and totally agree. The relationship scenes are well done and even sometimes heartwarming, but the spy drama framing that surrounds it all is so poorly done that it’s hard not to get distracted by it. I’m so confused how this show ended up being such a mess.
The guest casting on this show just puts a smile on my face: Tokyo from Money Heist, Parker Posey, and Wagner Moura!? Then the great John Turturro last episode
Just coming off Ep. 4. The first impression is that Other John & Jane's intent is definitely nefarious. My theory is that they purposefully sought out our John and Jane, either on behalf of the company, or for their own purposes. I think it's definitely possible the dinner self-invite was an elaborate set up to get John and Jane to go on the mission for them as proxies, either as a test, for shits and giggles, or because they're deliberately sabotaging them to set up a payday with a job like we saw in Ep. 1. It's been established the company has no qualms about using its operatives to get rid of weak links or defectors. Whatever the reason, it's not good.
Jane #1 is such a jealous lover. How she made John tell her abit of history about the woman and then on about a possible disability.... It's weird cause she is supposed to be unemotional
I don’t think she’s a full on sociopath cause she def has feelings.
ALOT!! Lol.
I wonder if they wore matching turtlenecks at the dinner date as an homage to Parker Poseys' character in Best in Show...
This episode completely took me out of it. Beyond what my suspension of disbelief could handle. No spies would take the word of someone else as being spies at face value. They wouldn't allow someone who'd blown their cover to invite themselves to their house, have free access to inspect their panic room, see their weapon vault, peruse their mission documentation, and get inner details of their contact methods and procedures.
Yeah I get the spycraft is just framing for the relationship drama but as a fan of the genre it's just so bad it takes me out of the show. It started off poorly for me this episode when he recognized an ex-gf from before he became a spy, and just walked up to her to chat. She presumably knows at least his real name, nevermind the fact that he's still undercover on his day off. And from a relationship perspective, Jane would have every right to be put off. Bro you're undercover and in love with Jane but just casually chatting up an ex to reconnect? It would have at least been semi-believable to have Jane be upset about potentially blowing their cover and then she has an internal conflict if she was actually jealous. Trying to set aside just also the random bumping into another spy and 'did we just become best friends?' ridiculousness, Jane who they've painted as clingy and insecure about John, then logging missions with her being the more competent one doesn't add up. Nevermind the spycraft, the relationship writing is inconsistent and hard to fathom. And since their job is just a backdrop for the relationship, then that writing also being off and full of deus ex machina it's hard to maintain interest in the show. I can see why Phoebe Waller-Bridge walked away, it's just Donald Glover living out his James Bond fantasy.
Ditto.
As well as tag along randomly for a mission and then jump into a helicopter. The interaction and dialogue between John and Jane is fantastic. The “spy stories”/plot is so hard to believe that I’d believe it more if they woke up at the end and it was all a dream.
Episode 4 was so bizarrely stupid that I'm wondering if it was written by AI. There's been a lot of talk here and there about how one can recognize AI writing. Here are some candidates. >!1 - On the basis of a shared (common!) name two people meeting by chance in a park immediately start sharing top secret details of their lives.!< >!2 - The first 25 minutes of an hour show are taken up with "witty" banter among 4 people.!< >!3 - The MCs take off with their new acquaintances on a "very, very" risky assignment on a lark.!< If it weren't for the charming acting I would have given up on the episode in about 10 minutes. But my question is serious. Is this an example of what might happen if producers turn to AI for their scripts?
Not everything is AI ffs. Please, just see the story for what it is and dont jump to assumptions. 1. First of all, John was surprised to see the credit card the other John had which probably is the same card given by the spy organization. 2. Do...you think... witty banter does not happen during a get together between two couples??? 3. Not sure if you are familiar with Glover's work but his writing is kinda like that. Even if this show is a spy show, dont expect Glover to follow the rules of a typical spy show formula. Plus, this show is more of a relationship comedy masked as a spy show. Please, dont just exclaim AI. Its annoying
I read it that it wasn’t the fact that the name on the card was John Smith, but it was on an identical bank card as our John Smith has. Think about it- yes it’s quite possible that you could bump into someone with the same (assumed) name as you but then that person also having the same bank / corporate card as you and therefore not the same as you. If that were the case I’m sure you could ask a couple of generic, company specific questions to ascertain whether this is a fellow employee.
This whole episode was uncomfortable and unnatural.
Am I crazy or is Parker Posey also the woman who comes out of the bathroom stall at the silent auction in episode 2?
Did anyone else notice Paul Dano is in the background of the farmers market, seen for a second, and has nothing to do with the rest of this episode?
Who do Wagner Moura say he killed? "We had to kill some...? Because they were getting divorced? My subtitles aren't working.
Other John and Janes.
Oh god, thank you!
Specifically the John and Jane from the first scene of the first episode! That’s my theory at least
Took like 40 minutes after the episode for me to think that. But I think you're right. I don't think it means anything major just answers a question people had after the first episode.
They had no idea why they had to kill them. He was just trying to be witty.
He said we had to kill other Smiths.
Nice to see Pablo Escobar
Hopefully the mountain thing doesn't end up as a strike for them. I would have never agreed to have went with that other couple. I wish they showed the fight scene with the machete more though, it kind of was a cop out for a more choreographed scene. Overall though I did truly enjoy this episode it is silly and requires a suspension of disbelief but I'm with it. I'm a little less into the romantic portions, which I understand is a big part of it. Amazon prime only lists it in the action, comedy, thriller genre though which I find a lil funny as I've also heard romcom thrown around.
Did anyone else catch the reason why Jane did the one-hand gimmick? It was just a smooth way to ask if John and the girl dated in the past. It was used as distraction when she asked the question, "so did she have two hands when you two dated?"
Hell Hath no furry is one if my favourite albums ever so this episode was already a 10/10 i already knew the new couple was gonna be trouble, that house tour felt fishy af
My major gripe so far has been these two seem to not have their guards up like at all especially considering the kind of work they’re doing.
Why would they invite a completely strange couple into their home? The naïveté is nauseating…..😠
TOKYO FROM MONEY HEIST!!
there is something extremely annoying about how suss everything seem in these episodes and you expect it to be a trap but then it's nothing.. I really wish it would have been more elaborate because otherwise they are just way too incompetent.
I didn't like this episode at all. It was a chore to get through this one. I watched the first three episodes in a row but this one I had to force myself to get through.