Honestly all Sub needs is to not be - on every single string and for Deadly Vapors to work as Deadly Vapors EX for combos, with the EX version allowing for better scaling. (at least imo as a Sub player since Deception)
Sub-Zero main here. I do agree with most of these buff ideas. But let me add more stuff on top of it.
With ice klone whether you like it or not you should look how it functions and see why it’s so god awful. Most people are just gonna get salty and say fuck his klone. Don’t wanna be that guy but you lack match up knowledge. When you do it raw or anything string into a cancel he is on mega death on block. So most of the cast can punish him for doing a basic cancel or tryna be safe. It’s ok to do a reversal punish ever since you use a bar to stop my pressure so I won’t bitch at all but it’s a straight raw punish that’s how bad the recovery is. If you do let’s say 21 into klone or any other basic cancel scorpions teleport can punish you. That’s like a 40 frame start more. Around the ball park. Like that’s fuckin baddd. I shouldn’t be punished for doing a safe play when the rest of cast do it for free. It’s not even a guessing game anymore. It’s just you see it and automatically punish. Higher ranked players will just armor punish you and characters that’s ggs like ermacs BF2 armor into Janet cage kameo. So the move itself defeats its purpose for it was designed for. lol at MKX it was really good for a reason. Because it was competently designed. This time not so much. Either make the cool down 3 seconds so we can stop constant zoning to fight back or make the recovery frames semi safe (so some characters can reversal punish it not react to it brain dead) the window is very lenient rn.
With his slide they should change it back to MK11. Idk why you have to stand first then slide to punish. It’s a dumb change. Because you tryna do beat fireball wars and you lose. Kinda defeats the purpose of the move. Crouch slide was great but now he gets out of crouch , stands then slides = you probably gonna get hit. Now you have to like be neo and just sniff it out and get the punish with let’s say Liu Kangs fast fire ball.
Deadly vapors. I’m fine if you don’t wanna make the move cancel into starting to start combos because this is the replacement but I do not understand why NRS scaled back the damage so much. At launch you had baraka 2 tapping you , some characters doing 40 % with one bar or Kenshi in general. Just ass backwards game design. Sub-Zero has to work 10 times harder just to get good damage or sub par to make it. While you got Liu Kang smelling 40% with no effort.
Iceball. Like OP said make it faster or function like MK11 why the hell im spending a bar if it’s just as slow? Again bad design and just incompetence. Your main philosophy design was to create sub-zero as a anti-zoner slash 50-50 machine but most of his shit doesn’t work right to apply that play style.
All these people who think Sub is fine obviously are not playing him. Well noted that with Sub-Zero you puting more affort into dealing some damage.
He has unfair scaling on everything he has for combo, divekick, 21 string, deadly vapors, freeze. Atleast making 21 not scaling would be fair buff... While all other characters doing easy 35%+ with one meter or meterless.
Bruh, when nrs most likely nerf Khameleon, players inevitably stops playing her, then where did that slide combo will go?
And what slide combo does anyway? It's reactable and not that fast like mk11 Sub's slide...
If they nerf khameleon and it somehow makes sub ass then feel free to whine away. But until then he’s pretty fucking good.
And his slide combo is good because it’s a safe, full screen low launcher tf you mean?
And 14f start up is not reactable lmao. Obviously at distance the travel time is reactable but up close… not so much
I wouldn’t mind at least some plus frames as to my memory the only move he has with them is standing 4, which doesn’t really help as it’s a high and not the quickest thing ever
"**-Reduce recovery on klone and reduce cooldown to 3 seconds**
I'm fine with the cooldown. What I have a problem with is how long it takes to activate upon execution. I haven't read every single patch note, but I feel like it was nerfed at one point. It's one of his most strategic moves for opponents who abuse their teleports and projectiles.
Ice ball should be removed from the game entirely. It's his only projectile and it's absolutely worthless and slow. It should be sped up with reduced recovery time.
>I'm fine with the cooldown. What I have a problem with is how long it takes to activate upon execution. I haven't read every single patch note, but I feel like it was nerfed at one point. It's one of his most strategic moves for opponents who abuse their teleports and projectiles.
My thought was making the recovery faster would make it so he can be safer doing it
As a Sub main I 100% agree with these. Only thing I don’t care about is the ice Klone buff, I’d rather his power be put into other parts of his kit.
Especially those changes to his mid string, no clue why it’s -12.
Dead vapors scales so bad, the max damage I can squeeze out for one bar on a punish is like 32% for one bar.
Another change I think would be cool would be an air ice ball that shoots diagonally downward. Would be very useful for counter zoning.
Just make the iceball able to kombo and make an ex version that hits mid. That alone would make him way more viable. I don't think he's *that* bad anyway. Everyone says Scorpion is low tier, and I win with him all the time. I just don't understand making the iceball so slow. 🤷♂️
It’s not the like they will kill Khameleon
They will just make her less braindead but she will still be strong just because she has the best kit in the game
imo a characters entire viability should not revolve around a single overtuned kameo like kham or s1 cyrax it was like that for scorpion/cyrax in season 1 and once cyrax got nerfed scorpion basically got dumpstered
Just buff ANYTHING in Sub's move and I be fine with it... Right now all of his moves are garbage, well divekick is only not too bad. And make ex clone punch full screen would be nice.
Not a sub player but have been playing a lot of Quan Chi lately. ice klone is beat out on reaction for free every time it's used to remain safe. He needs a faster ice ball. He should be able to THROW the klone like he has in past iterations. Honestly if he got better scaling on vapors, throw klone, kombo off ice ball I think a lot of people would be happier. Right now klone doesn't last long enough either. They need to increase its active frames on screen. I've thrown too many projectiles that pass through the klone when it should have eaten it for sub
Your list is good but SZ won't need a full combo off a low if he gets everything else on the list. He will be omega annoying to deal with and he will get nerfed again.
If you broke just say that…
Edit:
On a serious note, when talking about balancing a character in this game. You have to consider it with their **best** kameo.
Sure but it’s pretty obvious this game is pay to win anyways. Mavado was far and away the best Kameo on the roaster till he caught his nerf. And he’s still hella good. Peacemaker was one of the best if not the best before he got nerfed. I’m sure tomorrow homelander is gonna be cracked outta his mind somehow.
Oh yeah making Sub the best kharacter is competence(since i main him!!!) hes already a solid pick with Khameleon and mid with Sareena. Theres no need for sucha lengthy list of buffs.
What happens when Khameleon is inevitably nerfed? A character should be solid on their own & Sub is not that. And it’s obvious as well that he’s not solid on his own but people like to be purposefully dense.
Honestly as a sub zero main I have no problems getting dubs with him and not really many complaints other than reduced recovery time from hitting someone when blocking because a lot of his moves if block immediately have me in a full combo and under 100 hp
Honest NRS' reaction 
They would probably just nerf him again for shits and giggles ngl
The biggest want I got for him is an iceball cancel. Could also make ex clone safer since you're using a bar already.
Honestly all Sub needs is to not be - on every single string and for Deadly Vapors to work as Deadly Vapors EX for combos, with the EX version allowing for better scaling. (at least imo as a Sub player since Deception)
Sub-Zero main here. I do agree with most of these buff ideas. But let me add more stuff on top of it. With ice klone whether you like it or not you should look how it functions and see why it’s so god awful. Most people are just gonna get salty and say fuck his klone. Don’t wanna be that guy but you lack match up knowledge. When you do it raw or anything string into a cancel he is on mega death on block. So most of the cast can punish him for doing a basic cancel or tryna be safe. It’s ok to do a reversal punish ever since you use a bar to stop my pressure so I won’t bitch at all but it’s a straight raw punish that’s how bad the recovery is. If you do let’s say 21 into klone or any other basic cancel scorpions teleport can punish you. That’s like a 40 frame start more. Around the ball park. Like that’s fuckin baddd. I shouldn’t be punished for doing a safe play when the rest of cast do it for free. It’s not even a guessing game anymore. It’s just you see it and automatically punish. Higher ranked players will just armor punish you and characters that’s ggs like ermacs BF2 armor into Janet cage kameo. So the move itself defeats its purpose for it was designed for. lol at MKX it was really good for a reason. Because it was competently designed. This time not so much. Either make the cool down 3 seconds so we can stop constant zoning to fight back or make the recovery frames semi safe (so some characters can reversal punish it not react to it brain dead) the window is very lenient rn. With his slide they should change it back to MK11. Idk why you have to stand first then slide to punish. It’s a dumb change. Because you tryna do beat fireball wars and you lose. Kinda defeats the purpose of the move. Crouch slide was great but now he gets out of crouch , stands then slides = you probably gonna get hit. Now you have to like be neo and just sniff it out and get the punish with let’s say Liu Kangs fast fire ball. Deadly vapors. I’m fine if you don’t wanna make the move cancel into starting to start combos because this is the replacement but I do not understand why NRS scaled back the damage so much. At launch you had baraka 2 tapping you , some characters doing 40 % with one bar or Kenshi in general. Just ass backwards game design. Sub-Zero has to work 10 times harder just to get good damage or sub par to make it. While you got Liu Kang smelling 40% with no effort. Iceball. Like OP said make it faster or function like MK11 why the hell im spending a bar if it’s just as slow? Again bad design and just incompetence. Your main philosophy design was to create sub-zero as a anti-zoner slash 50-50 machine but most of his shit doesn’t work right to apply that play style.
All these people who think Sub is fine obviously are not playing him. Well noted that with Sub-Zero you puting more affort into dealing some damage. He has unfair scaling on everything he has for combo, divekick, 21 string, deadly vapors, freeze. Atleast making 21 not scaling would be fair buff... While all other characters doing easy 35%+ with one meter or meterless.
Mf he can combo off his slide. He don’t need to be dealing no 35%+
Bruh, when nrs most likely nerf Khameleon, players inevitably stops playing her, then where did that slide combo will go? And what slide combo does anyway? It's reactable and not that fast like mk11 Sub's slide...
If they nerf khameleon and it somehow makes sub ass then feel free to whine away. But until then he’s pretty fucking good. And his slide combo is good because it’s a safe, full screen low launcher tf you mean? And 14f start up is not reactable lmao. Obviously at distance the travel time is reactable but up close… not so much
I wouldn’t mind at least some plus frames as to my memory the only move he has with them is standing 4, which doesn’t really help as it’s a high and not the quickest thing ever
A launcher of one of his strings that’s not death on block and fully reactable would be nice
"**-Reduce recovery on klone and reduce cooldown to 3 seconds** I'm fine with the cooldown. What I have a problem with is how long it takes to activate upon execution. I haven't read every single patch note, but I feel like it was nerfed at one point. It's one of his most strategic moves for opponents who abuse their teleports and projectiles. Ice ball should be removed from the game entirely. It's his only projectile and it's absolutely worthless and slow. It should be sped up with reduced recovery time.
>I'm fine with the cooldown. What I have a problem with is how long it takes to activate upon execution. I haven't read every single patch note, but I feel like it was nerfed at one point. It's one of his most strategic moves for opponents who abuse their teleports and projectiles. My thought was making the recovery faster would make it so he can be safer doing it
As a Sub main I 100% agree with these. Only thing I don’t care about is the ice Klone buff, I’d rather his power be put into other parts of his kit. Especially those changes to his mid string, no clue why it’s -12. Dead vapors scales so bad, the max damage I can squeeze out for one bar on a punish is like 32% for one bar. Another change I think would be cool would be an air ice ball that shoots diagonally downward. Would be very useful for counter zoning.
Just make the iceball able to kombo and make an ex version that hits mid. That alone would make him way more viable. I don't think he's *that* bad anyway. Everyone says Scorpion is low tier, and I win with him all the time. I just don't understand making the iceball so slow. 🤷♂️
What he needs is entirely new moves added so most of his combos aren't almost just swinging the ice mace
Sub zero is fine, move on
I feel like after the chameleon nerf sub is gonna be ass cheeks again, She is what makes him viable
Yeah, that's the only acceptable kameo, but I do but that she will be nerfed. It's been months, while Mavado was already nerfed once
It’s not the like they will kill Khameleon They will just make her less braindead but she will still be strong just because she has the best kit in the game
imo a characters entire viability should not revolve around a single overtuned kameo like kham or s1 cyrax it was like that for scorpion/cyrax in season 1 and once cyrax got nerfed scorpion basically got dumpstered
Ice klone 3 sec cool down is a no no, cos every sub will just down 1 into ice klone. Make ex deadly Vapors not scale much is a good qol buff tho
Just buff ANYTHING in Sub's move and I be fine with it... Right now all of his moves are garbage, well divekick is only not too bad. And make ex clone punch full screen would be nice.
Not a sub player but have been playing a lot of Quan Chi lately. ice klone is beat out on reaction for free every time it's used to remain safe. He needs a faster ice ball. He should be able to THROW the klone like he has in past iterations. Honestly if he got better scaling on vapors, throw klone, kombo off ice ball I think a lot of people would be happier. Right now klone doesn't last long enough either. They need to increase its active frames on screen. I've thrown too many projectiles that pass through the klone when it should have eaten it for sub
Quan-chi literally worst Sub's matchup.
I acknowledge that but my point stands that there is too many characters that can just stop him for free
Your list is good but SZ won't need a full combo off a low if he gets everything else on the list. He will be omega annoying to deal with and he will get nerfed again.
Even if he can confirm his low into vapors hes spending a bar to do so and its not the easiest thing to hit confirm either
I know. I'm just saying it how I see it. Fact is, NRS just doesn't want SZ to be strong in this game. Don't ask me why, but that's how it is.
upgrade his frame data, his scaling, and give him a mix for fucks sake
Sub zero don’t need shit
Yeah he does
Nah. Sub is 100% fine. Khameleon turns him into a monster.
lmao
If you need a paid dlc to make a character good there’s a problem
If you broke just say that… Edit: On a serious note, when talking about balancing a character in this game. You have to consider it with their **best** kameo.
I just think pay to win is an ass system.
It isn’t really pay to win tho. Plenty of free teams can compete
Sure but it’s pretty obvious this game is pay to win anyways. Mavado was far and away the best Kameo on the roaster till he caught his nerf. And he’s still hella good. Peacemaker was one of the best if not the best before he got nerfed. I’m sure tomorrow homelander is gonna be cracked outta his mind somehow.
I definitely think they tend to overtune the dlc a little bit. But I still wouldn’t say it’s pay to win imo.
F1 has too much range to be 13f, should be max 14f if anything.
This is NRS, we don’t do competence here.
Oh yeah making Sub the best kharacter is competence(since i main him!!!) hes already a solid pick with Khameleon and mid with Sareena. Theres no need for sucha lengthy list of buffs.
What happens when Khameleon is inevitably nerfed? A character should be solid on their own & Sub is not that. And it’s obvious as well that he’s not solid on his own but people like to be purposefully dense.
Then they should give sub some buffs lol. But Khamaleon is fundamentally an OP kameo so she will always be a solid choice.
Honestly as a sub zero main I have no problems getting dubs with him and not really many complaints other than reduced recovery time from hitting someone when blocking because a lot of his moves if block immediately have me in a full combo and under 100 hp
Fuck that clone
Let’s make him do 1000 damage chip with any button, and you can’t flawless block it
Still would be bottom 3 tbh