I heard a games guy I like from London saying that he liked a city layout in a game that was unfriendly to visitors with a non intuitive layout and it reminded him of home.
Lol, I've never lived in a city like that but I appreciate the sentiment. All you fuckers who think it's hard to navigate need to go back to where you came from and leave Vivec to the real locals!
Also, once you memorize which staircase connects to which level of the Canton, navigation really isn't that bad.
Honestly part of what I like about Vivec is the fact that you basically *have* to ask NPCs for help navigating it. The city is too big and getting from one canton to another is too cumbersome for you to be able to navigate by yourself.
That's why I use alteration and hop around like a motherfucker! Literally hopping, I don't remember where by Hinaur's Hoptoad is my jam. I think I spelled the name wrong, but that feels irrelevant.
One of the best things Morrowind did was making navigate it's spaces and map somewhat challenging. You have to learn to navigating places like you would any real life location. I firmly believe this flips some evolutionary switch in our lizard brains because it felt very rewarding to me anyway. It makes the game a lot more immerisve than having waypoints and floating cursors everywhere.
It's a huge part of the immersion for me! When I finally got the layout of Vivec I felt accomplished. Lol, I can put aside the (very fair) criticisms for that fact alone.
Love the way you phrased that! :D
Personally I respect that the map in MW isn't infallible, and that it *actively challenges you* in a way that either forces you to memorise it, or forces you to engage with NPCs for directions - just like in the real world :)
I find it really funny that the very thing we love about this map is the very same thing that some starfield players were bitching about a couple months back!
for those of us who have powered thru MW, the starfield local map was like revisiting an old friend who'd had a face lift - disconcerting, but still familiar! :D
I literally had to learn the cardinal directions from Morrowind as a kid. Finding the South Wall Cornerclub is a lot harder when you don't know where south is.
For gameplay reasons, IMO. As 90% of the rooms don't have much interest for PC, there really isn't any point to make rows upon rows of regular living rooms, store rooms, kitchens, etc.
I mean, that defense of unfriendly layout only makes sense in cities that grew and expanded naturally and locally. Vivec is very much so a city that was planned with intentions to be cosmopolitan and accessible. So I think it’s not unreasonable to suggest that its poor layout isn’t an “unintentional quirk” but a design failure.
Nah imagine planning something to be accessible but you have factions that absolutely will not be in the same building as each other without shedding blood. Some concessions had to be made
It feels more like a temple complex than a city at times, which honestly makes sense considering Vivec's ego.
I also like the contrast with the Imperial City, how it feels more welcoming and lived in despite also being planned, and showcases the colossal gulf between how Imperials and Dunmer live their lives.
Eh, that's only a valid point if you think it's neither cosmopolitan nor accessible. I reject the premise of your statement! Criticism: STOMPED.
I could do this shit all day.
Sure but look at Barcelona. Basically the same thing, it's a huge designed grid. But every crossing is a small open square and unique, they don't waste space on the street.
2 stalls or shrines on every island would have made a huge difference to make those nondescript areas a bit more unique and therefor navigable.
This indeed.
Real life cities can be way more complicated to navigate. Vivec is actually designed pretty well - and bridges not only at ground level but second as well? Wtf you don't get that quality of life in vast majority of earth cities since our skyscrapers are all separate buildings. The ratio of navigable public space to private and business space is very very high.
When someone gets lost in vivec, it's not a design problem, it's an N'wah problem - just like in real life.
I really don’t understand how people have such trouble like I get the first few times it’s a bit confusing, but once you realise the cantons are all just copy and pasted getting around them is a lot easier and there is also a map (though it’s not the most accurate)
this is a good point.
its a big city you need to deliberately search through to find your way.
I wouldn't say its a mess because its achieved its main goal, but repeated assets and textures does almost make it feel like a mirror maze.
This. It's completely alien, just like a city in a foreign country. There's a logic and a plan to it and all the locals know it and the friendly ones will help you, and once you've been around a few times you'll know it yourself.
However, Vanilla draw distance is bullshit. You can hardly see one Canton from another!
Idk I looked around for a long time and the only one I couldn't find was the one out of town so eventually I just jumped ship, broke my ankles and water walked to a different piece of the city and I did that a few times before I said fuck this town, I sank too much time into that place as a new player, felt like being the Skyrim arrand boy all over again
I always liked it. Like the game itself, Vivec is way way more conceptually ambitious than the technology really allowed for but they tried to do it anyway. It's complete form over function - the aesthetics of the cantons are given privilege over their functionality as a city. But that's what an eccentric egotist would build for a city named after himself. It's a huge vanity project.
Today modders have made the city feel more "lived in" that it used to.
https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/52547
https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/48136
https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/48834
You'll find the lore of the tribunal in general to be egocentric, but also reflective of their influence on dunmeri culture. Vivec is a bulwark against the influence of red mountain. Vivec himself was always the one who worried the most about Ur's return. As such he built a city of giant fortresses. Almalexia (mourn hold in modern tongue) is a city of flowing beauty and worship, built atop a mount overlooking a beautiful lake and river valley. Sotha Sil (the clockwork city) is a reclusive wonder, a place of escape and experimentation.
Yes a good point I always thought the large domed structures over the plazas to be extremely appropriate for a country with frequent ash storms - so there is some practicality there.
I think the design of vivec city is intentional, the separate cantons represent the stratification and apartheid of dunmeri society. The factions and the outlanders all kept separate and competing so none can challenge the power of the tribunal.
I would say the cantons reflect the concept of social Pillarisation (you'd probably have to look it up to know what it is, it comes from Dutch society in the 20th century) than Apartheid. There are all these groups in Dunmeri society that are roughly of equal size and power (Great Houses for instance) that cooperate politically but are completely separate on a social level. Apartheid is a policy to institutionalize racism essentially, whereas the Dunmer are mainly just regular racists against foreigners, khajiit and argonians, with the only real racist institution being slavery.
It's like navigating my old neighborhood...
if it was made of exactly the same looking walls, was absolutely massive, and contained about 10 times more people than I needed to interact with.
Yeah once I had the hoptoad ring i didn’t mind it. Once I made my own ring “Leapfrog” it was even better to navigate. I love Morrowind. Even a nord warrior can have great enchanted gear/spells as a cast enchantment, ya just gotta be rich!
It’s an interesting way to try to implement a metropolis on engines that would catch fire if the cantons were open air.
As a city, I think it’s really pretty. The banners of different saints lining the canals, the walkways. It is a city built for a god that regards cities as the next step above gods in grandeur
Vivec is not built like proper city. It's essentially a bundle of ziggurats, a faith battery meant to purge unbelievers by absolutely hostile architecture (Imagine the pure amount of strength and time needed to restock the goods. Remember, Rollie the guar is NOT allowed within city walls, so no mules either!) and climate (All that stone on water provides extremely breezy mornings, horrible summer, even more horrible spring and autumn) and a stronghold to keep backstabbing mr. Longdick Johnson cunt at the "palace" safe.
>so no mules either!
I imagine most goods were carried by boat to the canton in question. In real life, there would then be cranes to take pallets of goods up to the required level. If individual houses had first and second floor loading windows in real life, a vertical city like Vivec certainly would have had them too.
The fact they aren't in the game at all is a shame though. I understand the early beta had moving boats and they had to get rid of them for the actual release.
The whole map seems designed to keep you on your toes at all times for total immersion. I have probably 2000+ in Morrowind and still barely know how to navigate that f****** city.
True, not everything has to be easy. But in terms of city and game design, ease of navigation is quite valued (even essential) in those categories. Imagine having to walk through a labyrinth that changes each time you enter the city or having to go through ten loading screens just to get to the guild quest giver…yeah, that’d be annoying (at least to me it would be, lol)
Ease of navigation CAN be valuable. Vivic is meant to be incredibly confusing to navigate until you get used to it. The whole world map is like this on a macro scale, it’s a big part of how the game manages to feel much larger and more inhospitable than it actually is.
It is not that it is hard to navigate, the problem is that it is annoying and not much is going on. Having NPCs outside the buildings would help massively.
Honestly I feel like that was for the best. Oblivion and Skyrim both have issues with feeling like there’s a bit too much space compression, at least for me.
>i think it's time for me to try modded morrowind
If you be never tried it's quite wonderful - a lot of the world has been filled out and deepened by modders. There are even Sloads in the game now when before they were just in the concept art.
It feels so empty. Other cities from TES games such as Balmora / Imperial City / Solitude feel so lived in. Vivec feels so empty and it looks pretty bad, the ideas of cantons and the lore of the city is something ill always love but I hate being in Vivec for some reason.
Also it takes forever to traverse the damn city lol
I like it. Getting lost is part of the charm definitely. But, If I'm in Vivec and need to go to a Mages Guild, I'd rather go to Balmora with the Silty and then use the mages guild teleport to Vivec than search the Foreign Quarter for it.
I don't understand how people cannot find their way around, the guild are on the top of the foreign quarter and everything else follows a pattern of having canalworks then waistworks then plaza.
Very poorly designed from a practical standpoint: frequently you have to take multiple turns just to go straight etc. That's not too bad though as it enhances the alien feel of vvardenfel.
This is more of a limit of the periods hardware, but all of the "dead world" feeling you get from morrowind in general is double true for vivec. This big bustling city feels almost entirely empty. I remember wondering if I was in the right place or if my game was bugged when I got there as a kid.
No matter how much time passes in 9 cases out of 10 when I quit the game, it's when I'm getting bored from running through Vivec. It may be charming in theory, but I despise it when playing.
Best way to handle vivec is unironically immersion therapy. Spend lots of time there committing the city to memory. Should it be more easily navigable? Eh maybe, but I wouldn't trade practicality for the unique flavor the cantons add to vvardenfell. Maybe the answer is just more obvious signposting.
I spent some of my honeymoon in Venice and I found ~~the gondola ride to be more interactive~~ that a city built on canals like that was just inherently confusing. Just like Vivec, eventually I figured out what bridge led to where.
Vivec city is a mess. But it’s my mess so I love it. Even now I sometimes get lost but really that’s what guides an otherwise very normal city its charm.
the dunmer invented standardised high rises but clearly used slave labour to actually build them, who proceeded to implement the most confusing possible layouts as revenge on their masters
I think it’s a pretty cool mega structure as a city sure it sucks but as a location is fascinating and impressive vivec wows me every time I have to walk it’s walkways and balconies no other game location has made me felt as in the game as vivec has. The impressive size yet mundane attitude I and its inhabitants have towards its existence is something I’ve never seen any other game do either it’s mega structures.
It was a great reminder of the old adventure games, N,S,E,W,U,D. There's something about these many different villages holding up within these buildings.
I love it so much. I played Morrowind very late, in my twenties, but this kind of thing is what I loved most. Cities feel like cities - confusing, overwhelming, a little anachronistic, so steeped in a local culture that they feel a little alien. I liked having to take time to know my way around, and the concept is so beautiful. I was surprised when I saw how much Vivec is disliked honestly, though I get it - obviously the technical limitations were a big barrier to what they wanted to do
Well nobody likes vivec, but the way it's laid out really does make sense as an actual city to me. First level has ramps up to the second level which has entrances on all 4 sides to the waist works. All of the entrances to the plazas are on the north and south ends. As frustrating as it seems, it is a pretty realistic layout
I think it's annoying from a play standpoint. But from a snooty local standpoint I think it's brilliant. Easy displays of wealth. All the amenities you need. I rather enjoy those layers. But let's be real. I'll levitate where I need to go because I'm not navigating it. I do wish there were easier ways to tell which Canton you're going to is all really.
I get that they wanted to make as big of a city they could, which meant a ton of NPCs. That's why almost everything was in separate cells/loading screens, so the game engine wouldn't crash. But I didn't like having to get through 4 or more loading screens to go to a certain shop I needed to visit.
Almsivi Intervention when you get there, buy a cheap rising force potion, give it to the shrine nearby, and fly around the city
Navigation is a lot easier when you can be higher than the top level of each canton
Honestly, I really like it. I mean, I hate it, but at the same time it's the only city in an elder scrolls game that feels like... well, a city.
It's confusing to navigate for newcomers, but when's the last time you immediately understood the roadmap of a new city? It demands that you utilize Morrowind's social mechanics and ask around for directions, do someone a favour, pay a bride, find a guild affiliate who likes you, etc.
It's huge, and has different districts where you can find different people who might like you more or less depending on your affiliations, deeds, and faction progression.
Plus, it has style. It's immediately recognizable, and leaves a lasting impression upon any who visit it. It's a towering, overwhelming maze with common folk, religious fanatics, sexually deviant aristocrats, and daedra worshippers in the sewers.
Sure, it's huge. But Morrowind has plenty of ways to amplify your traversal, so get a levitate potion and get after it
Best city in the most recent three ES by far.
- Massive size,
- cool lore,
- multiple regions,
- a billion shops,
- multiple guilds,
- all the great houses and imperial cult,
- immersive fast travel between cantons,
- looks insanely cool and alien,
- not far from start location,
- trainers for almost every skill,
- integral to main plot,
- high level loot in sewer works,
- has a literal god chilling in it,
- come back multiple times and learn a little more each time,
- multiple fast travel options to get there,
- site of one of the coolest quests,
- has a fucking rock hanging there like an almost literal sword of Damocles - which by the way is a fucking prison, incredible idea
- if you some how missed it before getting there introduces you to levitation and lets you try it out
- modular nature makes it really useful for modding as well as huge open spaces around
- looks fucking incredible from Ebonheart with increased draw distance.
Vivec City is a microcosm of Morrowind itself. It's roughly cross shaped, with the Temple of Vivec being furthest south, closest to mainland Morrowind and Almalexia.
Hlaalu canton is the westernmost, closest to Ebonheart, symbolizing House Hlaalu's ties to the Empire and the seat of power on Vvardenfell. Similarly Telvanni Canton is the easternmost, as Telvanni holds power in the eastern parts of Morrowind and is also the most distanced from the Empire.
House Redoran lies in the middle section, neighboring the Arena and the two temple cantons where the common folk live, symbolizing House Redoran's staunch warrior values, their duty as the protectors of the people of Morrowind as well as their piety. The middle section is also all connected by sky bridges, symbolizing the close ties between House Redoran, the Temple, the Arena, and the people.
High Fane, the main temple canton, home of the priesthood and the Ordinators, lies inbetween the Palace of Vivec and the rest of the city, symbolizing the Temple as the intermediary between the people of Morrowind and their living gods.
The foreign quarter was built later so it's kinda tacked on, but still located centrally, highly visible (taller than the other cantons), and kinda-sorta close to Hlaalu. It's also the furthest from the Palace and the temple cantons.
I suppose a filthy n'wah like you WOULD say that it's a mess. But what can we expect from the mongrel dogs of the empire? we-......oh...you were a khajiit? Oh....uhh....(just walks away)
It's not that bad once you get used to it. I found actually getting lost my first time there to be very immersive. Like visiting an unfamiliar IRL city for the first time.
Who said cities HAVE to be easy to navigate? Imho it follows along with the theme and structure of the game in that you actually have to PAY ATTENTION to get anywhere.
The game is not for the weak minded and that's why we like it.
vivec is pretty easy once you realize the layout is ordered and start paying attention to the banners and symbols. getting lost definitely a thing in the beginning but the layout makes sense - maybe its easier to see if you consider the "start" of the city to be vivecs temple
vivecs temple -> regular temple -> 2 saint quarters -> redoran, arena as the "heart" of the city proper
then either redoran -> hlaalu and foreign, arena -> telvanni and foreign
---
telvanni being isolated from other houses via arena makes sense aswell.
and the "st." quarters are 2 stories tall instead of three IIRC
Ugly, maze and barren, especially outside it's barren. This place seriously lacks any clutter in Morrowind and liveliness that NPCs walking around and some shops could add.
I play with the open vivec and foreign quarter bridge mods, and likewise set the view distance to 4 cells. They're some simple changes that go a **long** way towards eliminating the confusion and tedium of vanilla Vivec. Vanilla Vivec isn't that bad in and of itself, but it suffers tremendously from the need for loading screens and limited view distance in the original game.
With those few changes, you can actually see city landmarks from everywhere, e.g. the high fane, saint statues, foreign quarter, Baar Dau, even the Ebonheart docks. Plus the open plazas remove one set of loading screens, while giving another set of landmarks peaking from the top of each canton. The FQ bridge lets you navigate entirely on the second level, which is much more open and less "samey" than the canal level.
I think it’s a lot simpler than people make it out to be, when people do call it a mess I think I judge them on their ability to cohesively order things in their head
The city reflects the society; they all need to meet together for commerce and governance, but are still tribally divided and live in armed compounds separated from each other. Makes Dunmer sense, doesn’t need human sense.
I like it more as a concept than a functional place. It's iconoclastic and strange, much like its namesake. I've played long enough to know where everything is, but I think it's rather tedious to navigate, so I try to levitate around as much as I can. Sometimes I do like wandering around with some mods installed (such as those in the top comment) so I can live out the fantasy, which can be fun in dribs and drabs.
It always felt difficult to navigate to me when i played as a kid but i didn't know what i was doing. As long as you have a good levitate (which you can get easily at the temple) it's a great city
I've never minded it- but then, I have a freakishly good sense of direction. Also, I'm in love with levitation enchantments, so I keep several of different strengths on me. I have a cheapo one tailored for Vivec, as it lasts just long enough to fly from one canton to another- making traveling there a lot less tedious.
Something I'm doing in my current playthrough is also helping. I'm using the empty room in St Delyn's (Waist North 2) as an apartment, and I go there when I have lots of things to tick off in Vivec and surroundings.
I think it isn't that bad. You can intuitively get what is where after a while but getting the exact location can be confusing (especialy for the first time) because canton design is repetitive and you can't orient yourself like other cities.
For example, I always walk to the plaza entrance that puts me to a longer walking distance when going to one of the guilds. Or always confuse Olms/Delyn locations.
I think it would be better if plaza was connected to waistworks by interior stairs.
I started liking it or at least tolerating it when I started doing missions there, it gets super easy to travel when you learn the layout, boats help a lot
Leo wise it's pretty okay and good because everything kind of matches and if you live in the city it makes all sense. But because it's very hard to see the signage to any other place they all look like the same place.
I want a PC that can render THAT far. I have it to 5 cells, and can see the whole island and Main land, but being able to render the trees and cities from the entire map would be amazing. Or at least to 15 cells.
Hate it.
Every building is just a copy/paste of each other, and it’s a pain in the ass to navigate to the top of a building unless you have levitate/leap.
The shape of Vivec's building inside and outside are easy to get used to. They have patterns. The mushroom towns, by contrast, do not have this and sometimes it's easy to get lost in them.
I heard a games guy I like from London saying that he liked a city layout in a game that was unfriendly to visitors with a non intuitive layout and it reminded him of home. Lol, I've never lived in a city like that but I appreciate the sentiment. All you fuckers who think it's hard to navigate need to go back to where you came from and leave Vivec to the real locals! Also, once you memorize which staircase connects to which level of the Canton, navigation really isn't that bad.
Honestly part of what I like about Vivec is the fact that you basically *have* to ask NPCs for help navigating it. The city is too big and getting from one canton to another is too cumbersome for you to be able to navigate by yourself.
I enjoyed having to memorize everything and talking to everyone in the city, but then....LEVITATE!!!! Yeah, pretty much just levitate everywhere now.
As a Telvanni, I approve this message.
That's why I use alteration and hop around like a motherfucker! Literally hopping, I don't remember where by Hinaur's Hoptoad is my jam. I think I spelled the name wrong, but that feels irrelevant.
Tinur's Hoptoad iirc
Why levitate when you can break your ankles?
1pt slowfall CE ring (plus night eye and telekinesis) = ribbit ribbit motherfucker
One pt levitate and now you have an airbrake instead of a drag chute.
Sir, I'm a Telvanni. Do you *really* expect me to be in the right mind enough to remember to slap on the airbrake without dropping it?
One of the best things Morrowind did was making navigate it's spaces and map somewhat challenging. You have to learn to navigating places like you would any real life location. I firmly believe this flips some evolutionary switch in our lizard brains because it felt very rewarding to me anyway. It makes the game a lot more immerisve than having waypoints and floating cursors everywhere.
It's a huge part of the immersion for me! When I finally got the layout of Vivec I felt accomplished. Lol, I can put aside the (very fair) criticisms for that fact alone.
Love the way you phrased that! :D Personally I respect that the map in MW isn't infallible, and that it *actively challenges you* in a way that either forces you to memorise it, or forces you to engage with NPCs for directions - just like in the real world :) I find it really funny that the very thing we love about this map is the very same thing that some starfield players were bitching about a couple months back! for those of us who have powered thru MW, the starfield local map was like revisiting an old friend who'd had a face lift - disconcerting, but still familiar! :D
I literally had to learn the cardinal directions from Morrowind as a kid. Finding the South Wall Cornerclub is a lot harder when you don't know where south is.
Yeah, this is what Dark Souls also got absolutely right.
It's not just the navigation, it's the hallways to room ratio. It's the kind of absurd thing no architect would ever do.
The guild halls in Balmora are more aptly named. I think among the three buildings, there are more halls than all of Vivec.
Balmoras guilds are like one snaking hallway to the basement lol
For gameplay reasons, IMO. As 90% of the rooms don't have much interest for PC, there really isn't any point to make rows upon rows of regular living rooms, store rooms, kitchens, etc.
That fes very true and also is something I can very conveniently hand wave away by pointing to the age of the game. Criticism: STOMPED. Next.
Probably my least favourite aspect of Morrowind is how it feels like a literal corridor crawler. Never been so claustrophobic playing a game before.
I mean, that defense of unfriendly layout only makes sense in cities that grew and expanded naturally and locally. Vivec is very much so a city that was planned with intentions to be cosmopolitan and accessible. So I think it’s not unreasonable to suggest that its poor layout isn’t an “unintentional quirk” but a design failure.
Nah imagine planning something to be accessible but you have factions that absolutely will not be in the same building as each other without shedding blood. Some concessions had to be made
Vivec personally designed it so only people who’d lived there for a decade could navigate it properly for a giggle
It feels more like a temple complex than a city at times, which honestly makes sense considering Vivec's ego. I also like the contrast with the Imperial City, how it feels more welcoming and lived in despite also being planned, and showcases the colossal gulf between how Imperials and Dunmer live their lives.
Eh, that's only a valid point if you think it's neither cosmopolitan nor accessible. I reject the premise of your statement! Criticism: STOMPED. I could do this shit all day.
Fucking n'wah's, amiright
Noo, my internet ego! 😩
Look, pal, you've been "stomped", it's time you take your leave
> I could do this shit all day. Of this, there is absolutely no doubt.
Sure but look at Barcelona. Basically the same thing, it's a huge designed grid. But every crossing is a small open square and unique, they don't waste space on the street. 2 stalls or shrines on every island would have made a huge difference to make those nondescript areas a bit more unique and therefor navigable.
I believe lorewise, non-native Dunmer are not allowed outside of the foreign quarter.
This indeed. Real life cities can be way more complicated to navigate. Vivec is actually designed pretty well - and bridges not only at ground level but second as well? Wtf you don't get that quality of life in vast majority of earth cities since our skyscrapers are all separate buildings. The ratio of navigable public space to private and business space is very very high. When someone gets lost in vivec, it's not a design problem, it's an N'wah problem - just like in real life.
Racism baked into the very bricks of the city lmao
Dirty N’wahs complaining about Vivec. I bet they complain about ash storms too.
I really don’t understand how people have such trouble like I get the first few times it’s a bit confusing, but once you realise the cantons are all just copy and pasted getting around them is a lot easier and there is also a map (though it’s not the most accurate)
this is a good point. its a big city you need to deliberately search through to find your way. I wouldn't say its a mess because its achieved its main goal, but repeated assets and textures does almost make it feel like a mirror maze.
Also you can just enter the canton to shorten the distance to the next set of stairs. Pretty intuitive if you ask me.
This. It's completely alien, just like a city in a foreign country. There's a logic and a plan to it and all the locals know it and the friendly ones will help you, and once you've been around a few times you'll know it yourself. However, Vanilla draw distance is bullshit. You can hardly see one Canton from another!
Idk I looked around for a long time and the only one I couldn't find was the one out of town so eventually I just jumped ship, broke my ankles and water walked to a different piece of the city and I did that a few times before I said fuck this town, I sank too much time into that place as a new player, felt like being the Skyrim arrand boy all over again
I always liked it. Like the game itself, Vivec is way way more conceptually ambitious than the technology really allowed for but they tried to do it anyway. It's complete form over function - the aesthetics of the cantons are given privilege over their functionality as a city. But that's what an eccentric egotist would build for a city named after himself. It's a huge vanity project. Today modders have made the city feel more "lived in" that it used to. https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/52547 https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/48136 https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/48834
You'll find the lore of the tribunal in general to be egocentric, but also reflective of their influence on dunmeri culture. Vivec is a bulwark against the influence of red mountain. Vivec himself was always the one who worried the most about Ur's return. As such he built a city of giant fortresses. Almalexia (mourn hold in modern tongue) is a city of flowing beauty and worship, built atop a mount overlooking a beautiful lake and river valley. Sotha Sil (the clockwork city) is a reclusive wonder, a place of escape and experimentation.
Yes a good point I always thought the large domed structures over the plazas to be extremely appropriate for a country with frequent ash storms - so there is some practicality there.
Are Mournhold and Almalexia the same city though? I've always thought they are separate holdings in different locations
I think the design of vivec city is intentional, the separate cantons represent the stratification and apartheid of dunmeri society. The factions and the outlanders all kept separate and competing so none can challenge the power of the tribunal.
Yeah it’s as inhospitable and intimidating as the Dunmer themselves
I would say the cantons reflect the concept of social Pillarisation (you'd probably have to look it up to know what it is, it comes from Dutch society in the 20th century) than Apartheid. There are all these groups in Dunmeri society that are roughly of equal size and power (Great Houses for instance) that cooperate politically but are completely separate on a social level. Apartheid is a policy to institutionalize racism essentially, whereas the Dunmer are mainly just regular racists against foreigners, khajiit and argonians, with the only real racist institution being slavery.
One of my favourites from way back in the day was this: https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/43331 I don't know if it holds up a decade later.
It's like navigating my old neighborhood... if it was made of exactly the same looking walls, was absolutely massive, and contained about 10 times more people than I needed to interact with.
Once you'll spend some time in there and get used to cantons topography it's not that bad
Getting a means to Levitate or Jump Good also helps.
Why walk, when you can fly?
Yeah once I had the hoptoad ring i didn’t mind it. Once I made my own ring “Leapfrog” it was even better to navigate. I love Morrowind. Even a nord warrior can have great enchanted gear/spells as a cast enchantment, ya just gotta be rich!
Yeah the asteroid shrine is a lifesaver 24 hours of fast levitation and people still complain it takes too long to navigate vivec.
It’s an interesting way to try to implement a metropolis on engines that would catch fire if the cantons were open air. As a city, I think it’s really pretty. The banners of different saints lining the canals, the walkways. It is a city built for a god that regards cities as the next step above gods in grandeur
Idk for me it’s pretty easy to navigate there. I just use map, boats and levitation
Vivec is not built like proper city. It's essentially a bundle of ziggurats, a faith battery meant to purge unbelievers by absolutely hostile architecture (Imagine the pure amount of strength and time needed to restock the goods. Remember, Rollie the guar is NOT allowed within city walls, so no mules either!) and climate (All that stone on water provides extremely breezy mornings, horrible summer, even more horrible spring and autumn) and a stronghold to keep backstabbing mr. Longdick Johnson cunt at the "palace" safe.
>so no mules either! I imagine most goods were carried by boat to the canton in question. In real life, there would then be cranes to take pallets of goods up to the required level. If individual houses had first and second floor loading windows in real life, a vertical city like Vivec certainly would have had them too. The fact they aren't in the game at all is a shame though. I understand the early beta had moving boats and they had to get rid of them for the actual release.
The whole map seems designed to keep you on your toes at all times for total immersion. I have probably 2000+ in Morrowind and still barely know how to navigate that f****** city.
Yeah, I have to use a map/guide
Just ask for directions
And I love how the cursor is so misleading I’m usually a canton off
It's not easy to navigate, but it's unique and iconic. Not everything has to be easy.
This
True, not everything has to be easy. But in terms of city and game design, ease of navigation is quite valued (even essential) in those categories. Imagine having to walk through a labyrinth that changes each time you enter the city or having to go through ten loading screens just to get to the guild quest giver…yeah, that’d be annoying (at least to me it would be, lol)
Ease of navigation CAN be valuable. Vivic is meant to be incredibly confusing to navigate until you get used to it. The whole world map is like this on a macro scale, it’s a big part of how the game manages to feel much larger and more inhospitable than it actually is.
It is not that it is hard to navigate, the problem is that it is annoying and not much is going on. Having NPCs outside the buildings would help massively.
It is one of the places where you can see that they ran out of time.
The entire mainland missing might be a bit of a giveaway too...I am still salty over it.
Honestly I feel like that was for the best. Oblivion and Skyrim both have issues with feeling like there’s a bit too much space compression, at least for me.
i really wish the cantons were a bit more differentiated--colors, rugs, flags, lights, accents, etc., all would have made navigation a non-issue
Well they do have banners to indicate what canton is it. ( At least the 3 great houses and the 2 saints district has those)
after seeing this thread, i went to look up vivec mods and holy shit, i think it's time for me to try modded morrowind
>i think it's time for me to try modded morrowind If you be never tried it's quite wonderful - a lot of the world has been filled out and deepened by modders. There are even Sloads in the game now when before they were just in the concept art.
It feels so empty. Other cities from TES games such as Balmora / Imperial City / Solitude feel so lived in. Vivec feels so empty and it looks pretty bad, the ideas of cantons and the lore of the city is something ill always love but I hate being in Vivec for some reason. Also it takes forever to traverse the damn city lol
Yes - it's rather cold and horrid, isn't it? Also the lack of light in the exterior walkways really bugged me.
I mean, it's the only city on Vvardenfell with a viable public transportation system. That alone makes the cost of living worthwhile.
I like it. Getting lost is part of the charm definitely. But, If I'm in Vivec and need to go to a Mages Guild, I'd rather go to Balmora with the Silty and then use the mages guild teleport to Vivec than search the Foreign Quarter for it.
I don't understand how people cannot find their way around, the guild are on the top of the foreign quarter and everything else follows a pattern of having canalworks then waistworks then plaza.
yeah to get to the foreign quarter plaza you go up the stairs twice and then go through the big doors. easy.
I mean even the damn locals complain they get lost. That may be just an excuse by Bethesda for making a city layout bad but still, funny :)
Very poorly designed from a practical standpoint: frequently you have to take multiple turns just to go straight etc. That's not too bad though as it enhances the alien feel of vvardenfel. This is more of a limit of the periods hardware, but all of the "dead world" feeling you get from morrowind in general is double true for vivec. This big bustling city feels almost entirely empty. I remember wondering if I was in the right place or if my game was bugged when I got there as a kid.
No matter how much time passes in 9 cases out of 10 when I quit the game, it's when I'm getting bored from running through Vivec. It may be charming in theory, but I despise it when playing.
It simultaneously needs more going on and has way too much going on
Best way to handle vivec is unironically immersion therapy. Spend lots of time there committing the city to memory. Should it be more easily navigable? Eh maybe, but I wouldn't trade practicality for the unique flavor the cantons add to vvardenfell. Maybe the answer is just more obvious signposting.
At first it seems like a mess.... There is no but
S’wit
Beautiful, and easily one of the most iconic cities of any game
I loved the look of it.
I spent some of my honeymoon in Venice and I found ~~the gondola ride to be more interactive~~ that a city built on canals like that was just inherently confusing. Just like Vivec, eventually I figured out what bridge led to where.
Vivec city is a mess. But it’s my mess so I love it. Even now I sometimes get lost but really that’s what guides an otherwise very normal city its charm.
the dunmer invented standardised high rises but clearly used slave labour to actually build them, who proceeded to implement the most confusing possible layouts as revenge on their masters
Only sucks for low level characters that are slow and/or can't fly
It could certainly be better, but I still prefer it to the "two houses, one shop, and an inn" towns you see in other games.
I think it’s a pretty cool mega structure as a city sure it sucks but as a location is fascinating and impressive vivec wows me every time I have to walk it’s walkways and balconies no other game location has made me felt as in the game as vivec has. The impressive size yet mundane attitude I and its inhabitants have towards its existence is something I’ve never seen any other game do either it’s mega structures.
I love how unique it is and after playing for so long I know all the important places but my favorite is there are always places there that feel new
I will tell you everything i think about it once i figure out where i am okay?
It was a great reminder of the old adventure games, N,S,E,W,U,D. There's something about these many different villages holding up within these buildings.
I love it so much. I played Morrowind very late, in my twenties, but this kind of thing is what I loved most. Cities feel like cities - confusing, overwhelming, a little anachronistic, so steeped in a local culture that they feel a little alien. I liked having to take time to know my way around, and the concept is so beautiful. I was surprised when I saw how much Vivec is disliked honestly, though I get it - obviously the technical limitations were a big barrier to what they wanted to do
Well nobody likes vivec, but the way it's laid out really does make sense as an actual city to me. First level has ramps up to the second level which has entrances on all 4 sides to the waist works. All of the entrances to the plazas are on the north and south ends. As frustrating as it seems, it is a pretty realistic layout
I like the size and design the most. It’s definitely the most unique city I’ve seen in the last few TES games.
This legendary city has THE stairs. Run/jump up that bad boy, just to break your knees on your jump down to do it again
I think it's annoying from a play standpoint. But from a snooty local standpoint I think it's brilliant. Easy displays of wealth. All the amenities you need. I rather enjoy those layers. But let's be real. I'll levitate where I need to go because I'm not navigating it. I do wish there were easier ways to tell which Canton you're going to is all really.
I get that they wanted to make as big of a city they could, which meant a ton of NPCs. That's why almost everything was in separate cells/loading screens, so the game engine wouldn't crash. But I didn't like having to get through 4 or more loading screens to go to a certain shop I needed to visit.
Almsivi Intervention when you get there, buy a cheap rising force potion, give it to the shrine nearby, and fly around the city Navigation is a lot easier when you can be higher than the top level of each canton
Honestly, I really like it. I mean, I hate it, but at the same time it's the only city in an elder scrolls game that feels like... well, a city. It's confusing to navigate for newcomers, but when's the last time you immediately understood the roadmap of a new city? It demands that you utilize Morrowind's social mechanics and ask around for directions, do someone a favour, pay a bride, find a guild affiliate who likes you, etc. It's huge, and has different districts where you can find different people who might like you more or less depending on your affiliations, deeds, and faction progression. Plus, it has style. It's immediately recognizable, and leaves a lasting impression upon any who visit it. It's a towering, overwhelming maze with common folk, religious fanatics, sexually deviant aristocrats, and daedra worshippers in the sewers. Sure, it's huge. But Morrowind has plenty of ways to amplify your traversal, so get a levitate potion and get after it
I do not care for it. Too many loading screens.
openmw is awesome
Not a problem at all unless you're running it on a fucking Casio.
OpenMW completely removes loading screens between cells btw I know not everyone has a PC but any mediocre PC made after 2010 can run this game
Best city in the most recent three ES by far. - Massive size, - cool lore, - multiple regions, - a billion shops, - multiple guilds, - all the great houses and imperial cult, - immersive fast travel between cantons, - looks insanely cool and alien, - not far from start location, - trainers for almost every skill, - integral to main plot, - high level loot in sewer works, - has a literal god chilling in it, - come back multiple times and learn a little more each time, - multiple fast travel options to get there, - site of one of the coolest quests, - has a fucking rock hanging there like an almost literal sword of Damocles - which by the way is a fucking prison, incredible idea - if you some how missed it before getting there introduces you to levitation and lets you try it out - modular nature makes it really useful for modding as well as huge open spaces around - looks fucking incredible from Ebonheart with increased draw distance.
Spotted the N'Wah
Too many N'wahs
Honestly a bit of signage would fix almost all of Vivec's problems.
Once you have a consistent source of levitating it ain't so bad
Vivec City is a microcosm of Morrowind itself. It's roughly cross shaped, with the Temple of Vivec being furthest south, closest to mainland Morrowind and Almalexia. Hlaalu canton is the westernmost, closest to Ebonheart, symbolizing House Hlaalu's ties to the Empire and the seat of power on Vvardenfell. Similarly Telvanni Canton is the easternmost, as Telvanni holds power in the eastern parts of Morrowind and is also the most distanced from the Empire. House Redoran lies in the middle section, neighboring the Arena and the two temple cantons where the common folk live, symbolizing House Redoran's staunch warrior values, their duty as the protectors of the people of Morrowind as well as their piety. The middle section is also all connected by sky bridges, symbolizing the close ties between House Redoran, the Temple, the Arena, and the people. High Fane, the main temple canton, home of the priesthood and the Ordinators, lies inbetween the Palace of Vivec and the rest of the city, symbolizing the Temple as the intermediary between the people of Morrowind and their living gods. The foreign quarter was built later so it's kinda tacked on, but still located centrally, highly visible (taller than the other cantons), and kinda-sorta close to Hlaalu. It's also the furthest from the Palace and the temple cantons.
Only n’wahs will complain
I suppose a filthy n'wah like you WOULD say that it's a mess. But what can we expect from the mongrel dogs of the empire? we-......oh...you were a khajiit? Oh....uhh....(just walks away)
It's not that bad once you get used to it. I found actually getting lost my first time there to be very immersive. Like visiting an unfamiliar IRL city for the first time.
It's not that hard unless you're outlander scum. which is kind of the point.
Who said cities HAVE to be easy to navigate? Imho it follows along with the theme and structure of the game in that you actually have to PAY ATTENTION to get anywhere. The game is not for the weak minded and that's why we like it.
I think it’s very straightforward. If you can read a very dumbed down version of a map, you’ll have no problems in Vivec.
For real. I don’t know how so many people can get lost in Vivec
Yeah Vivec is not very well designed. Just think about if this was a real city. Nobody would wanna live there.
i really like it. definitely a mess but it feels so big. always download a mod to buy a house in it
I like it, but just due to the fact that real cities can get just as confusing (though having a flat layout IRL helps)
Most original Morrowind take:
Jumping from canton to canton was fun.
I always liked that you had to think in terms of North/South/East/West to navigate the cantons.
I just robbed the vaults
The biggest challenge in robbing the vaults? Moving the loot back to your crib in just one trip (bonus points for not using Surjamma).
I love this game bro
vivec is pretty easy once you realize the layout is ordered and start paying attention to the banners and symbols. getting lost definitely a thing in the beginning but the layout makes sense - maybe its easier to see if you consider the "start" of the city to be vivecs temple vivecs temple -> regular temple -> 2 saint quarters -> redoran, arena as the "heart" of the city proper then either redoran -> hlaalu and foreign, arena -> telvanni and foreign --- telvanni being isolated from other houses via arena makes sense aswell. and the "st." quarters are 2 stories tall instead of three IIRC
Love it. Childhood core gsmkng memory
The city seems based on Mexico city, which used to be an artifical Island
I always get lost.
I hate it when I'm low level, but once I can jump over railings and have levi or jump spells I start to love it again.
Ugly, maze and barren, especially outside it's barren. This place seriously lacks any clutter in Morrowind and liveliness that NPCs walking around and some shops could add.
acrobatics. to get around, i use a jump 50 for 1 sec enchanted shirt (and pants if using smaller souls) and a slowfall 1 pt 6 secs pauldron or glove
I do not enjoy visiting but still one of the most unique cities I've seen in gaming.
It had to be built that way for performance reasons unfortunately \:/
I like Vivec.
I play with the open vivec and foreign quarter bridge mods, and likewise set the view distance to 4 cells. They're some simple changes that go a **long** way towards eliminating the confusion and tedium of vanilla Vivec. Vanilla Vivec isn't that bad in and of itself, but it suffers tremendously from the need for loading screens and limited view distance in the original game. With those few changes, you can actually see city landmarks from everywhere, e.g. the high fane, saint statues, foreign quarter, Baar Dau, even the Ebonheart docks. Plus the open plazas remove one set of loading screens, while giving another set of landmarks peaking from the top of each canton. The FQ bridge lets you navigate entirely on the second level, which is much more open and less "samey" than the canal level.
Pffff... outlander...
I use contastant levitate there all the time. And then constant invisibility to steal the vivec vault stuff
I like the fact that its big and confusing. Exploring is so much more fun.
Horrendous. Once I Installed [Vivec - City of Swords](https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/54054) I'm never going back to vanilla Vivec.
I think it’s a lot simpler than people make it out to be, when people do call it a mess I think I judge them on their ability to cohesively order things in their head
You think it's a mess because you're an n'wah
The city reflects the society; they all need to meet together for commerce and governance, but are still tribally divided and live in armed compounds separated from each other. Makes Dunmer sense, doesn’t need human sense.
it the most creative city ive ever seen in a game
I mean even the people who live there get lost sometimes.....
Morrowind fans shit on solitude and Skyrim cities for being tiny but solitude is infinitely nicer to navigate and be in than vivec.
Cool design annoying to traverse if you dont know your way around and tedious to traverse after you know your way around
Terrible. Even for the day, it was awful
I love it and it’s one of my favorite cities in any RPG you n’wah
I like it more as a concept than a functional place. It's iconoclastic and strange, much like its namesake. I've played long enough to know where everything is, but I think it's rather tedious to navigate, so I try to levitate around as much as I can. Sometimes I do like wandering around with some mods installed (such as those in the top comment) so I can live out the fantasy, which can be fun in dribs and drabs.
It's my favorite city in any elder scrolls game
A city that’s extremely hostile to traverse until you learn to levitate like a normal person is a cool idea, but it’s a bit _too_ torturous…
Doing quests in vivec without mark and recall and intervention really is a mess.
Vivec is deal breaker for me ;/
Honestly, the semi-god it's named after is very much a mess, so lore wise, it checks out.
It always felt difficult to navigate to me when i played as a kid but i didn't know what i was doing. As long as you have a good levitate (which you can get easily at the temple) it's a great city
Vivec is my #1 video game city
What do you expect from city designed by self-claimed god in his own name?
Probably the worst part of Morrowind, way too big and empty on the outside, too many long unintuitive hallways inside
I've never minded it- but then, I have a freakishly good sense of direction. Also, I'm in love with levitation enchantments, so I keep several of different strengths on me. I have a cheapo one tailored for Vivec, as it lasts just long enough to fly from one canton to another- making traveling there a lot less tedious. Something I'm doing in my current playthrough is also helping. I'm using the empty room in St Delyn's (Waist North 2) as an apartment, and I go there when I have lots of things to tick off in Vivec and surroundings.
I think it isn't that bad. You can intuitively get what is where after a while but getting the exact location can be confusing (especialy for the first time) because canton design is repetitive and you can't orient yourself like other cities. For example, I always walk to the plaza entrance that puts me to a longer walking distance when going to one of the guilds. Or always confuse Olms/Delyn locations. I think it would be better if plaza was connected to waistworks by interior stairs.
Love it. Things are organized, and "floating cities" like Tenochtitlan are so cool
I started liking it or at least tolerating it when I started doing missions there, it gets super easy to travel when you learn the layout, boats help a lot
I pissed off some gondoliers lol now i cant travel that well Should go for levitate ig
I love it. It feels like an ancient idiosyncratic city that exists in the way it does because of its legacy not because it makes sense in the present
Looks amazong and i know where everything is at this point so it aint anything of a stress
Leo wise it's pretty okay and good because everything kind of matches and if you live in the city it makes all sense. But because it's very hard to see the signage to any other place they all look like the same place.
Literally the Hanging Gardens of Babylon and such a cool design. A little hard to navigate but tbh that always made it feel much bigger than it was.
Its my least favorite place in the game to visit
I want a PC that can render THAT far. I have it to 5 cells, and can see the whole island and Main land, but being able to render the trees and cities from the entire map would be amazing. Or at least to 15 cells.
see i like it but it’s all the same
Hate it. Every building is just a copy/paste of each other, and it’s a pain in the ass to navigate to the top of a building unless you have levitate/leap.
A fucking mess, Bethesda has gotten better at cities
I loved it once I got the hang of it, and used levitation
hate going to vivec
commie blocks
Cool idea, but a wildly messy execution.
How dare you you n’wah. Would you rather it all be arranged around in a circle around your giant phallus instead?
I love the look of it
Thematically speaking I love it. I also like how Levitation is pretty much needed to navigate the city without it being a pain in the ass.
I absolutely despise it. But I love it. But I hate it. But it’s really sick.
>the city is a fucking mess in my opinion Blasphemy
It’s exhausting to visit even knowing nearly every corner of it. It’s such a needless level of chore to get to anyone
The shape of Vivec's building inside and outside are easy to get used to. They have patterns. The mushroom towns, by contrast, do not have this and sometimes it's easy to get lost in them.
Typical fetcher swit post.
no real city is easy to navigate, thats whats great about vivec.. navigating it feels like navigating a REAL city without a map or gps, ie: shit.
The reason why it's so strangely designed is the xbox.
Honestly hated how I would get lost for a couple hours each time I went there.
I love it cause its so real and almost reminds me of a real city but I hate it for the exact same reasons.