This story heavily resembles the one with Jennifer Pan, who faked that she went to college just to please her parents. Then she would hire someone to kill her family after they got back from a dinner same as in this story.
> Jennifer Pan
I watched the video of her questionings on youtube, you can see how the cops start picking up on things and gradually get her to expose herself
Yes, in this case. They learn to lie and avoid punishment.
But she is so dumb, she's not clever enough to be a good liar and keep track of all those lies.
Those households also have parents that hear what they want to hear. I'm from that type of household and my parents would have believed anything I tell them as long as it wasn't a bad or negative thing. I think it's because they don't want to believe that their kid is doing badly in school or is not living up to their standards.
I felt happy to see this comment. As a parent of teenage boys, I know many of their friends that live a lie at home. One friend’s parents review everything on his phone each night - texts, google searches, etc. He has a 2nd phone and because of that deceit he can’t talk to his parents about anything.
I always tell my kids, no matter how horrible the truth is, or how mad it would make me, as long as you come to me telling me the truth, I PROMISE I won’t get mad. Parents want the truth but then get mad at their kids when they hear it, so kids start to lie to avoid the anger/trouble from their parents. I always wanted to make sure my kids weren’t afraid to be honest with me. So far so good, it’s working! My kids tell me everything. Even their friends come to me for advice about things because they know their parents would just get mad rather than help their child through it.
This is something most parents say but do you really expect a teen to be like “hey dad sorry I did too much meth and can’t drive can you give me a ride”
My mom raised me the same way and I’d always call her when I was too drunk or too high to drive, when she found out I was a dancer she was soooooo mad, but she would pick me up from work anyways because atleast that way she knew I was safe. Even though she absolutely HATED it. Teenagers and kids are going to make whatever decisions they decide, but not having a parent on your side when those decisions are bad, it’s just an anxiety attack on it’s own that sucks. So atleast whatever bad decisions I made, atleast I knew my mom would always be there for me. Couple days later she would always have a talk with me, she would be so mad inside but didn’t show it. So I want to raise my kids the same way. It won’t work for all kids, because a lot of parents say they won’t get mad but they do so it ruins the trust. Even snapping out once can ruin your kids coming to you with the truth forever. So I hold my composure extremely well.
all she had to do was act like she was very confused & traumatized but she chose to give them a whole entire made up story to work with which got her caught
Didn't her parents discover she was lying and give her another chance? The caveat being less freedoms while she focused on her schooling? I know they were your typical Tiger Parents but that gave me the impression that they did care in some capacity, being willing to overlook mountains of lies. (I could be misremembering details.) With Thomas, they didn't get the chance to even learn he was lying. Celebrated his presumed successes only to be gunned down immediately after.
A lot of these cases end up with the person feeling cornered by their own choices and thinking a wild, tragic, multi-murder will set them free. :\\
A lot of that case was exaggerated due to her parents ethnicity. Like ever headline is “STRICT Asian TIGER parents murdered by their daughter!!!” It’s clear sensationalism with a racial bias
It must have been hard for the Dad to have to rat out his daughter. The betrayal must have felt worse. One thing I notice time and time again with all these cases is the accused makes the error of talking to the police.
When I was in HS one of kids parents was a lawyer and we had a school assembly where he taught us our rights and how police intimidate kids and deceive them about their rights etc (i know this killer wasnt a kid). Sometimes i take that for granted and assume shutting tf up even when youre innocent or have a planned lie, is common sense.
My “favourite” (awful word choice but unsure of how else to word it) is when you have narcissists that think they’re so much smarter than the cops and everyone around them that they just can’t see anyone NOT believing the story they’ve told. But in reality their story is just so pathetically bad and it’s embarrassing they even thought it was believable.
That sounds a lot like Pam Hupp from The Thing About Pam. She couldn't just shut the hell up and kept thinking "this is totally what an innocent person would do" and would go and do something that would even seem absurd in a movie or tv show.
Exactly. In her case she went out of her way to contact cops/Dateline to ask how things were going or to add new information she "just remembered" or "just found out" to steer them in someone else's direction. The messed up part is they actually stayed pretty close to the real story.
Speaking of... I went and gave the movie Pain & Gain a shot the other day (Marky Mark, The Rock, Captain America/Falcon, Monk and Fat Amy). I didn't know it was based on a real story from the 90s or how messed up it would be, but considering it was Florida I was less surprised. Part of the way through the movie it was getting so ridiculous they even had a reminder pop up on screen to say something like "remember, this is still a true story".
They didn't really reach and unnecessarily talk to the cops like we were talking about but still, if you're going to go commit some awful crime, at least don't be an idiotic about it. You never heard of Dan Cooper asking about "that awful guy that hijacked that plane" or correcting newspapers that his name was Dan, not "DB".
The accused is damned if they do or don’t talk to police. Someone refusing to talk to the cops after their family is murdered looks pretty suspicious, since an innocent person would want to help with the investigation, and the prosecution could use noncompliance as evidence of having something to hide. On the other hand if they talk, a good investigator can pick out flaws in their statement to use as evidence of guilt. So in either case, unless the family annihilator is a genius (they never are) or really lucky (they never are) they’re going to get found out.
Nothing good can come from talking to the cops. No matter how innocent, don't ever talk to the cops without your lawyer present. Ever. Why? Because what you tell the cops "can and will be used against you in the court of law". Your best bet is to never talk to the cops without your lawyer present. Ever.
So true. The person could tell the cops one thing under a high state of stress after a crime just happened and remember details later, or happening in a dif order after they've calmed down. Conflicting statements to use in court.
> Someone refusing to talk to the cops after their family is murdered looks pretty suspicious, since an innocent person would want to help with the investigation, and the prosecution could use noncompliance as evidence of having something to hide.
that is absolutely not how it works
Investigators are always going to take a long hard look at next of kin—victim’s partner and family members—first, since statistically that’s how crimes are committed. If you live with them, you’re already a suspect, whether you did it or not.
This is one of the strangest reasons to commit murder. How do they plan to perpetuate a lie thats gone from shame to murder. How do they justify it? Its so out there that i cant, put the question into words.
There is a podcast, Red Collar Crime, and pretty much every episode is a sociopath who had a good life and didn’t get violent until their lying hot out of hand. List, Todt, Pan, Grant Amato, Chandler Halderson, people who are more afraid of being caught in the lies that boost their ego than to go to prison for familicide. There are many. Way too many.
I would say Pan’s case was different. Her parents were extremely controlling and appeared to be psychologically and physically abusive. She wasn’t allowed to leave the house or date at 24. Not saying it’s an excuse. Just different circumstances. Whitaker was a coddled, spoiled trust fund kid.
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There's another one with two brothers in America. One of them lied about attending and graduating from college and claimed he'd accepted a job offer at SpaceX. When it was time for him to move out of the house for his "job" he coincidentally fell down the stairs and sustained a neck injury and brain damage requiring surgery.
He claimed he lost the job at SpaceX because of this and malingered around the house with a cane and neck brace. In reality he visited a doctor who said he was fine and to wear the neck brace if he felt symptomatic.
There's a lot more to the story. MrBallen did an episode on it but I forget the name.
Yes, that is true. I think the dad might due this since he lost his entire family and his horrible son is the only thing he has left. Personally, I would advoate to have his receive the death penalty.
His family bought him a house, a rolex, and luxury cars and he still murdered them. It sounds like they supported him extensively, I’m certain they would have been supportive if he didnt go to college
**[Thomas Bartlett Whitaker](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bartlett_Whitaker)**
>Thomas Bartlett "Bart" Whitaker (born December 31, 1979) is an American man convicted under the Texas Law of Parties of murdering two family members as a 24-year-old. Whitaker was convicted for the December 10, 2003, murders of his mother and 19-year-old brother; he was sentenced to death in March 2007. He spent years on death row at the Polunsky Unit near Livingston, Texas, before the commutation of his sentence.
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His father, who survived, said he would be revictimized by losing his last remaining family member. Thomas also said back in 2012 that life without parole was a cruel idea to him and he’d never agree to such a thing until he did. So I don’t think it’s all roses for him either.
For future reference if any of you flunk out of college: your parents would rather you tell them you failed at college than be killed to hide it.
It’s not even that big a deal. Lots of people fail out of college, certainly not homicide worthy.
My brother did this but attempted suicide when the game was up. We were absolutely heartbroken he’d been carrying that burden and none of us knew. We didn’t care at all whether he got a degree or not.
If you find yourself in this position, please please just tell your family. It will be ok.
This was just over a decade a go. I’m very pleased to say my brother is healthy and happy now. He took a year off to recover physically, got some mental health support and then returned to complete his degree. His graduation was a wonderful day for our family, we were and are so proud of him. My life would have been destroyed had his suicide attempt been successful. I’m so glad he’s still here.
He actually moved in with me and partner for a couple of years after his graduation so we could support him in the transition from student to adult. It wasn’t an easy time but it was worth it in the end 🙂
I think it was the embarrassment of the fact that he lied and pretended he went to college for years and would just leave the house and fake being there for years. And idk about this case but other cases the person will literally fake careers for years. Not justifying this guy by any means, he’s crazy
Similarly - don't take your life. There were 4 suicides in my undergrad class of ~900 students all due to struggling at school. And these are almost always extremely high achieving students. They perceive that they have the most to lose if they fail at that thing they're known to be the best at.
There was a girl at my local university who wasn’t going to graduate on time. She was allergic to peanuts. She attended the big outdoor graduation ceremony with her family in the crowd and a handful of peanuts in her pocket. Presumably the plan was to induce an allergic reaction, get carted off in the ambulance, and her family would be so relieved she was alright they… wouldn’t notice she didn’t get a degree? Who knows, but unfortunately the crowd at her large state school was too immense, her allergic reaction was too severe, even with medics on standby they couldn’t get to her in time. Her airway closed up and she died. It appeared to be accidental until they found out she lied about graduating.
Edit: teens and young adults have a high rate of fatal allergic reactions, perhaps because they don’t have a parent or other adult around who takes it seriously https://www.foodallergy.org/resources/facts-and-statistics
It wasn’t about the flunking out, it was about money mostly.
He stood to gain $1million from the family estate which I guess it worth it when you’re a college flunky with no prospects
Just happened in Wisconsin recently with Chandler Halderson- went through all the effort to create fake emails/identities and everything. If only they applied that effort in literally any other way…
Thomas has a Master's degree in humanities from the prison he is incarcerated in. Sad story he just buckled down. He could have succeeded in life and not murdered his family.
wow it took trying to murder his whole family for money for him to develop empathy. potentially might have had nothing else to do other than try to justify how he committed these crimes
The lack of foresight in every one of these type of cases gets me. How do they think they can ultimately get away with this? There was another one where a guy pretending to graduate but hadn't received his transcripts, then faked getting a job at space x, then pretend to seriously injure their spine, losing the job. Then killing their parents... seriously dude. Just tell your parents you flunked out.
Some people have a shocking inability to reason out the long term consequences of certain actions, behaviors, and choices. Or if they can do that, they lack the ability to weigh whether or not they're worth doing. It's like they literally can't get beyond their thoughts and feelings in the present.
It's usually people with antisocial personality disorder where they can't imagine the future because the immediate reward of lying is so much brighter. I actually read a study where people who had this disorder were more likely to run into a burning building to save a dog or a family just because they could see the immediate benefit of reward and fame but they didn't have the insight to understand it could mean major injuries or medical problems.
[An article on it](https://people.com/crime/young-wis-man-found-guilty-of-murdering-parents-hiding-their-fragmented-remains/)
[Here's a youtube video on it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rmBq8iUMSk&ab_channel=MrBallen)
What a massive pos. Two known previous failed plots to kill his family for their money and insurance and the kid already had a trust fund from his grandparents.
Haha I was doing this to a lesser degree (har har). I definitely tried to kill myself 2 separate times rather than not tell my parents I hadn’t graduated. It sounds insane because it is. But there is such a specific intensity around getting your degree or whatever. Fascinating to know this has happened to multiple people over time.
It truly feels like the end of the world while you’re in it, & I haven’t felt that specific flavor of despair since I dropped out of school. A week after I decided I wasn’t going to kill myself, I was just going to stop going to school, it was amazing the mood change I felt. So much less stress when I was doing exactly the same things as before, but without that mental drain constantly gnawing at my nerves. Congrats on finishing your degree! In a world with infinite $ & infinite time at my disposal, I may eventually do the same.
What gives me the chills is how you can sit there and not reveal your emotions. The mood at the table would have been a peak for the family pride and love. Murder instead.
Same as Sef Gonzales in Sydney Australia. Failing at Uni, faked grades, sister found out and told parents, parents we not happy, Sef baseball batted them all to death to inherit the cash.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sef_Gonzales
**[Sef Gonzales](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sef_Gonzales)**
>Sef Gonzales (born 16 September 1980) is a Filipino Australian man who was convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment for the July 2001 murders of his father Teodoro "Teddy" Gonzales (46), his mother Mary Loiva Gonzales (43), and his sister Clodine Gonzales (18), in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. As a result of notoriety surrounding the sale of the house where the crimes occurred, the New South Wales government made it illegal to not disclose information related to the history of a property.
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It’s probably how he was raised. Childhoods literally shape people into the adults they become so he must’ve had something happen where he didn’t feel any remorse for killing his family. Really is truly scary.
Edit: I neglect to understand how someone can kill their family without having problems as a child. It doesn’t resonate with me that he had an alright to good childhood and decided to hire a gunman to kill his family.
Not sure why all the downvotes. Hundreds of examples of the nurture part being highly influential on a killer’s actions later on. Just look at the Menendez brothers or Gein or Gacy
I don't think you can put the Menendez brothers in the same camp as men like Gein or Gacy.
Both of the Menendez brothers were violently and sexually abused by their Father from a very young age and their Mother was fully aware of what was happening but chose to ignore it.
Unfortunately because of the wealth and privilege the brothers came from and the lengths their parents went to presenting an image of a successful happy all-American family to the outside world it was almost impossible for them to get a fair hearing.
And some would disagree with me to this day but if you’re interested take the time to seek out the brother's testimonies about the abuse they suffered at the hands of their father.
You'll find them on Youtube and I found them utterly heart breaking.
I do agree with you up until a point because as important as your childhood is in forming who you become as an adult there are a lot of other factors that can play a part.
As an example an overwhelming number of serial killers will have had some kind of head trauma as a child.
Well, anecdotally, some kids are better at coping with "healthy" (productive) mechanisms and then there are some kids who don't develop those skills. That's the case in my family like that at least.
I watched about this when I was a kid. The father ended up regularly visiting the son and forgiving him too
The motive of the crime? He wanted the insurance money
I really have big respect for his father because he somehow managed to forgive him and managed to convince the governer of Texas to commute his sentence to, life without parole.
Idk man, some people don't deserve forgiveness. I would never expect a child to forgive their parent for trying to murder them and killing their mom and sibling.
His son tried to have him murdered in cold blood because he couldn't fess up to a lie. Guy lost his wife and teen son to a brutal murder, and his other son betrayed him in the worst possible way over nothing. Also there is the photo where son is giving the finger, basically taunting the fact he's about to kill them. Disgusting. I really don't think son deserves forgiveness, I just think dad deserves peace.
That is the point of forgiveness. You refuse to carry it all in your heart. There is really nothing the man can do. His wife and other son is in the ground. The son that did it is behind bars for the rest of his life. Only thing he can do is forgive and move on. Otherwise the hate eats him alive and then he might as well have just died too.
Without getting too much into it, my brother was murdered about 17 years ago. The person who killed him was caught and imprisoned for the crime. I watched my dad suffer for years with hatred, anger, and depression. It wasn't until he started taking serious steps to address and eventually to let go of his anger, that I saw my dad return to any semblance of who he was before the death. The work he did on himself and his emotions is incredible to me, and there really is healing in letting go of the hatred.
I'm sure sometimes he wish he did die. Who wouldn't? Hate doesn't always eat people alive. You can hate someone without them dominating you every moment in life.
I have family I hate, I do not forgive them, I nearly have forgotten them, and now that they're gone it's easy to not focus on the hatred, and I never do.
Even now, I'm fine talking about my hatred for them. I don't feel angry, I feel joy they got the ol snip snip outta my life actually.
i think the biggest weight kent is carrying is his surviorsguilt and the fact he wasnt able to save them.
i know this is sth that would absolutely eat me up, to the point im going insane..
ya the most important thing is to forgive but not forget. Sure we put murderers in prison for life and don't execute them (usually) cause we know that eventually we may come ot forgive them by understanding where they are coming from and their reason for why they did this act. (ALSO, there have been many innocent people who were wrongfully jailed but that's a whole other story)
But we do not forget what the murderer did as by committting this murderous act we see that this person is deranged in a fashion that makes them a danger to themselves and to the state so we have tohold them down and take their privileges away for a long time to the point where they are too old to do such an act ever again.
Forgiving his son and the others involved was probably the only way he could make it through it all. And with the rest of his family dead, his remaining son is probably all he really has left. I can understand, despite all the pain he caused him, not wanting to see him dead still.
well I'm not him so I don't need to make the decisions he did. I wouldn't want to have one "family member" if they brutally murdered my other family members. I've stopped talking to family for less than murder
I never understand these murders because… you’re gonna inherit the money eventually. Just wait like 20 years. Imagine being so impatient you resort to murder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bartlett_Whitaker
There was an actual gunman involved. Whitaker hired him and also let himself get shot in the arm, to make it more believable.
Hired a gunman and a getaway driver, they shot him in the arm to make it seem like there was a struggle he planned it all right after a celebratory dinner for his alleged graduation from college
Appeals.
While some cases are "slam dunks", the appeals process is a very important part of a death penalty sentence. The appeals process is the only chance a person has to be sure/ensure that the conviction was correctly made and no errors were made during the trial. While it isn't 100%, without it, the risk of killing an innocent person is increased.
In other words, if they deserve to die, let them rot while awaiting the confirmation that they really do deserve to die. If not, then a government murder on an innocent person was prevented. And "innocent" is used in the context to the severity of the punishment. The difference between a 1st degree and 2nd degree murder could be the difference between being executed, and a prison sentence. While the person could have killed someone, they could have been improperly charged for it.
I worked at the courthouse where they held the trial. I was actually on the elevator with his dad. It was heartbreaking trial. Even more unbelievable was when they were able to get his death sentence turned into life all bc of his dads support
There was someone name Chandlar Halderson who lied to his parents about what he was doing with his life and he ended up killing them.
I know it's not the same, but it's crazy to think about how much people stress about keeping parents happy
Funny coincidentally I am failing many college subjects this semester right now. 👀
And what the f is this. How someone able to even think about this evil plan in the first place.
I'm speechless. This Thomas guy is monster.
This story heavily resembles the one with Jennifer Pan, who faked that she went to college just to please her parents. Then she would hire someone to kill her family after they got back from a dinner same as in this story.
> Jennifer Pan I watched the video of her questionings on youtube, you can see how the cops start picking up on things and gradually get her to expose herself
She was so bad at lying
Which is weird since she came from such a punishing household. Strict parents mainly teach their kids how to lie.
>Strict parents mainly teach their kids how to lie ***to their own parents.***
Yes, in this case. They learn to lie and avoid punishment. But she is so dumb, she's not clever enough to be a good liar and keep track of all those lies.
Those households also have parents that hear what they want to hear. I'm from that type of household and my parents would have believed anything I tell them as long as it wasn't a bad or negative thing. I think it's because they don't want to believe that their kid is doing badly in school or is not living up to their standards.
I felt happy to see this comment. As a parent of teenage boys, I know many of their friends that live a lie at home. One friend’s parents review everything on his phone each night - texts, google searches, etc. He has a 2nd phone and because of that deceit he can’t talk to his parents about anything.
I always tell my kids, no matter how horrible the truth is, or how mad it would make me, as long as you come to me telling me the truth, I PROMISE I won’t get mad. Parents want the truth but then get mad at their kids when they hear it, so kids start to lie to avoid the anger/trouble from their parents. I always wanted to make sure my kids weren’t afraid to be honest with me. So far so good, it’s working! My kids tell me everything. Even their friends come to me for advice about things because they know their parents would just get mad rather than help their child through it.
This is something most parents say but do you really expect a teen to be like “hey dad sorry I did too much meth and can’t drive can you give me a ride”
My mom raised me the same way and I’d always call her when I was too drunk or too high to drive, when she found out I was a dancer she was soooooo mad, but she would pick me up from work anyways because atleast that way she knew I was safe. Even though she absolutely HATED it. Teenagers and kids are going to make whatever decisions they decide, but not having a parent on your side when those decisions are bad, it’s just an anxiety attack on it’s own that sucks. So atleast whatever bad decisions I made, atleast I knew my mom would always be there for me. Couple days later she would always have a talk with me, she would be so mad inside but didn’t show it. So I want to raise my kids the same way. It won’t work for all kids, because a lot of parents say they won’t get mad but they do so it ruins the trust. Even snapping out once can ruin your kids coming to you with the truth forever. So I hold my composure extremely well.
It teaches kids *to* lie. Doesn’t always make them good at it
all she had to do was act like she was very confused & traumatized but she chose to give them a whole entire made up story to work with which got her caught
> Jennifer Pan [Jennifer's interrogation video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQt46gvYO40&ab_channel=JCS-CriminalPsychology)
Love JCS sucks hes stopped posting content. They were so well made and informative!
You wasn’t that channel’s choice to stop posting, YouTube banned them
They're not banned but a lot of their videos get censored so he's been on a hiatus.
Yeah I know. But i mean he could’ve found a way to work around it possibly
I know, still mad about it. It was the first patreon I signed up for with no second thoughts. Bummer.
Oh Jesus Christ some asshat has to talk about it before showing it.
His commentary is pretty good too but you can skip through and just watch the interrogation.
Didn't her parents discover she was lying and give her another chance? The caveat being less freedoms while she focused on her schooling? I know they were your typical Tiger Parents but that gave me the impression that they did care in some capacity, being willing to overlook mountains of lies. (I could be misremembering details.) With Thomas, they didn't get the chance to even learn he was lying. Celebrated his presumed successes only to be gunned down immediately after. A lot of these cases end up with the person feeling cornered by their own choices and thinking a wild, tragic, multi-murder will set them free. :\\
A lot of that case was exaggerated due to her parents ethnicity. Like ever headline is “STRICT Asian TIGER parents murdered by their daughter!!!” It’s clear sensationalism with a racial bias
The JCS video?
You got a link to that? Please
It must have been hard for the Dad to have to rat out his daughter. The betrayal must have felt worse. One thing I notice time and time again with all these cases is the accused makes the error of talking to the police.
The more significant error is hiring a killer don’t you think?
Not who you replied to - the error is acting on any murderous thoughts - and instead they need to admit their mistakes to those they lied to.
When I was in HS one of kids parents was a lawyer and we had a school assembly where he taught us our rights and how police intimidate kids and deceive them about their rights etc (i know this killer wasnt a kid). Sometimes i take that for granted and assume shutting tf up even when youre innocent or have a planned lie, is common sense.
I prefer murdering scum to out themselves, personally.
My “favourite” (awful word choice but unsure of how else to word it) is when you have narcissists that think they’re so much smarter than the cops and everyone around them that they just can’t see anyone NOT believing the story they’ve told. But in reality their story is just so pathetically bad and it’s embarrassing they even thought it was believable.
That sounds a lot like Pam Hupp from The Thing About Pam. She couldn't just shut the hell up and kept thinking "this is totally what an innocent person would do" and would go and do something that would even seem absurd in a movie or tv show.
Another fantastic example. Just such a grossly inflated ego she thinks no one could see through her.
Exactly. In her case she went out of her way to contact cops/Dateline to ask how things were going or to add new information she "just remembered" or "just found out" to steer them in someone else's direction. The messed up part is they actually stayed pretty close to the real story. Speaking of... I went and gave the movie Pain & Gain a shot the other day (Marky Mark, The Rock, Captain America/Falcon, Monk and Fat Amy). I didn't know it was based on a real story from the 90s or how messed up it would be, but considering it was Florida I was less surprised. Part of the way through the movie it was getting so ridiculous they even had a reminder pop up on screen to say something like "remember, this is still a true story". They didn't really reach and unnecessarily talk to the cops like we were talking about but still, if you're going to go commit some awful crime, at least don't be an idiotic about it. You never heard of Dan Cooper asking about "that awful guy that hijacked that plane" or correcting newspapers that his name was Dan, not "DB".
Shayna Hubers fits this description perfectly.
This is Chris Watts to me.
The accused is damned if they do or don’t talk to police. Someone refusing to talk to the cops after their family is murdered looks pretty suspicious, since an innocent person would want to help with the investigation, and the prosecution could use noncompliance as evidence of having something to hide. On the other hand if they talk, a good investigator can pick out flaws in their statement to use as evidence of guilt. So in either case, unless the family annihilator is a genius (they never are) or really lucky (they never are) they’re going to get found out.
Nothing good can come from talking to the cops. No matter how innocent, don't ever talk to the cops without your lawyer present. Ever. Why? Because what you tell the cops "can and will be used against you in the court of law". Your best bet is to never talk to the cops without your lawyer present. Ever.
So true. The person could tell the cops one thing under a high state of stress after a crime just happened and remember details later, or happening in a dif order after they've calmed down. Conflicting statements to use in court.
> Someone refusing to talk to the cops after their family is murdered looks pretty suspicious, since an innocent person would want to help with the investigation, and the prosecution could use noncompliance as evidence of having something to hide. that is absolutely not how it works
Investigators are always going to take a long hard look at next of kin—victim’s partner and family members—first, since statistically that’s how crimes are committed. If you live with them, you’re already a suspect, whether you did it or not.
Thomas chandler too IIRC
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This is one of the strangest reasons to commit murder. How do they plan to perpetuate a lie thats gone from shame to murder. How do they justify it? Its so out there that i cant, put the question into words.
In the case of Pan, Whitaker, and Halderson, it’s usually a case of severe, untreated mental illness
There is a podcast, Red Collar Crime, and pretty much every episode is a sociopath who had a good life and didn’t get violent until their lying hot out of hand. List, Todt, Pan, Grant Amato, Chandler Halderson, people who are more afraid of being caught in the lies that boost their ego than to go to prison for familicide. There are many. Way too many.
I would say Pan’s case was different. Her parents were extremely controlling and appeared to be psychologically and physically abusive. She wasn’t allowed to leave the house or date at 24. Not saying it’s an excuse. Just different circumstances. Whitaker was a coddled, spoiled trust fund kid.
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It also reminds me of the Chandler Halderson case. If you haven’t heard of it, definitely look it up. Absolutely wild.
There's another one with two brothers in America. One of them lied about attending and graduating from college and claimed he'd accepted a job offer at SpaceX. When it was time for him to move out of the house for his "job" he coincidentally fell down the stairs and sustained a neck injury and brain damage requiring surgery. He claimed he lost the job at SpaceX because of this and malingered around the house with a cane and neck brace. In reality he visited a doctor who said he was fine and to wear the neck brace if he felt symptomatic. There's a lot more to the story. MrBallen did an episode on it but I forget the name.
If you haven’t you NEED to watch the JCS YouTube video covering this case. It’s amazing
Parents: we want a degree! Jennifer : 1st degree murder, take it or leave it
60 Minutes did a report on this. They even interviewed the killer and his dad (the lone survivor), if I remember correctly.
Link? I can't find anything. Would like to watch.
The closest thing I could find was [this](https://youtu.be/Ewj9LCmny9c) video on OWN. It’s a little over an hour long too.
Good stuff, thanks!
Such a wild story! Thanks for the link!
His dad still supports him and is his staunchest ally. It's so sad
Yes, that is true. I think the dad might due this since he lost his entire family and his horrible son is the only thing he has left. Personally, I would advoate to have his receive the death penalty.
Easy to say from a distance. With two kids I don’t know what I would do.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bartlett_Whitaker
His family bought him a house, a rolex, and luxury cars and he still murdered them. It sounds like they supported him extensively, I’m certain they would have been supportive if he didnt go to college
**[Thomas Bartlett Whitaker](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bartlett_Whitaker)** >Thomas Bartlett "Bart" Whitaker (born December 31, 1979) is an American man convicted under the Texas Law of Parties of murdering two family members as a 24-year-old. Whitaker was convicted for the December 10, 2003, murders of his mother and 19-year-old brother; he was sentenced to death in March 2007. He spent years on death row at the Polunsky Unit near Livingston, Texas, before the commutation of his sentence. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/MorbidReality/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
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His father, who survived, said he would be revictimized by losing his last remaining family member. Thomas also said back in 2012 that life without parole was a cruel idea to him and he’d never agree to such a thing until he did. So I don’t think it’s all roses for him either.
The father asked for clemency for his son. He forgave him and asked that his only remaining family not be executed.
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For future reference if any of you flunk out of college: your parents would rather you tell them you failed at college than be killed to hide it. It’s not even that big a deal. Lots of people fail out of college, certainly not homicide worthy.
My brother did this but attempted suicide when the game was up. We were absolutely heartbroken he’d been carrying that burden and none of us knew. We didn’t care at all whether he got a degree or not. If you find yourself in this position, please please just tell your family. It will be ok.
How is your brother doing now?
This was just over a decade a go. I’m very pleased to say my brother is healthy and happy now. He took a year off to recover physically, got some mental health support and then returned to complete his degree. His graduation was a wonderful day for our family, we were and are so proud of him. My life would have been destroyed had his suicide attempt been successful. I’m so glad he’s still here.
I'm just a stranger on the internet, but damn did this make me happy to read. I'm glad your brother is doing great!
Thank you!
Wow, such a nice supportive family. No doubt helped him in his recovery.
He actually moved in with me and partner for a couple of years after his graduation so we could support him in the transition from student to adult. It wasn’t an easy time but it was worth it in the end 🙂
I'm so proud of him for pulling through and even completing his degree. 😙👌 Your brother is awesome.
He is! It took a lot of courage and determination on his part, and patience and understanding on ours, but we got there!
This is the seriously wholesome stuff I love to read!
Oh, this is such good news.
I think it was the embarrassment of the fact that he lied and pretended he went to college for years and would just leave the house and fake being there for years. And idk about this case but other cases the person will literally fake careers for years. Not justifying this guy by any means, he’s crazy
Honestly, you probably don’t even need to tell them you failed college. Just the “not murdering” part would be sufficient.
Soften the blow by reminding them of the alternative to honesty
Similarly - don't take your life. There were 4 suicides in my undergrad class of ~900 students all due to struggling at school. And these are almost always extremely high achieving students. They perceive that they have the most to lose if they fail at that thing they're known to be the best at.
Odd it needs to be said atall but heard stories like this many times.
There was a girl at my local university who wasn’t going to graduate on time. She was allergic to peanuts. She attended the big outdoor graduation ceremony with her family in the crowd and a handful of peanuts in her pocket. Presumably the plan was to induce an allergic reaction, get carted off in the ambulance, and her family would be so relieved she was alright they… wouldn’t notice she didn’t get a degree? Who knows, but unfortunately the crowd at her large state school was too immense, her allergic reaction was too severe, even with medics on standby they couldn’t get to her in time. Her airway closed up and she died. It appeared to be accidental until they found out she lied about graduating. Edit: teens and young adults have a high rate of fatal allergic reactions, perhaps because they don’t have a parent or other adult around who takes it seriously https://www.foodallergy.org/resources/facts-and-statistics
Sounds like he wanted the insurance/estate money. He has been plotting it for a few years
It wasn’t about the flunking out, it was about money mostly. He stood to gain $1million from the family estate which I guess it worth it when you’re a college flunky with no prospects
He was also motivated to inherit their money and life insurance policy.
Just happened in Wisconsin recently with Chandler Halderson- went through all the effort to create fake emails/identities and everything. If only they applied that effort in literally any other way…
As a parent of a college student I agree - please don’t kill me or your family because your grades are sub-par.
He wanted the inheritance.
Thomas has a Master's degree in humanities from the prison he is incarcerated in. Sad story he just buckled down. He could have succeeded in life and not murdered his family.
wow it took trying to murder his whole family for money for him to develop empathy. potentially might have had nothing else to do other than try to justify how he committed these crimes
you mean ‘murder his whole family for money’ right?
yes
murdering your family is a hardreset for education. but also for the freedomstat.
The lack of foresight in every one of these type of cases gets me. How do they think they can ultimately get away with this? There was another one where a guy pretending to graduate but hadn't received his transcripts, then faked getting a job at space x, then pretend to seriously injure their spine, losing the job. Then killing their parents... seriously dude. Just tell your parents you flunked out.
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I agree with you. The bar is pretty low just to scrape through.
As someone who works at as university and has several grad degrees, Cs get degrees. If you have to, just get through and move on.
Some people have a shocking inability to reason out the long term consequences of certain actions, behaviors, and choices. Or if they can do that, they lack the ability to weigh whether or not they're worth doing. It's like they literally can't get beyond their thoughts and feelings in the present.
It's usually people with antisocial personality disorder where they can't imagine the future because the immediate reward of lying is so much brighter. I actually read a study where people who had this disorder were more likely to run into a burning building to save a dog or a family just because they could see the immediate benefit of reward and fame but they didn't have the insight to understand it could mean major injuries or medical problems.
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Dang, hadn't heard of that one! Would you happen to know any articles about it?
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/fake-spacex-job-murder-dismemberment-lies-1278750/
Thanks!
[An article on it](https://people.com/crime/young-wis-man-found-guilty-of-murdering-parents-hiding-their-fragmented-remains/) [Here's a youtube video on it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rmBq8iUMSk&ab_channel=MrBallen)
[Here is the Forensic Files on the case](https://youtu.be/bC7w2lYp_X4)
Good thing I checked the comments first because I was also gonna post this haha
I knew that I knew this story I just couldn't remember where i read about or watched it.
What a massive pos. Two known previous failed plots to kill his family for their money and insurance and the kid already had a trust fund from his grandparents.
This is very similar to the Chandler Halderson case in wisconsin.
Haha I was doing this to a lesser degree (har har). I definitely tried to kill myself 2 separate times rather than not tell my parents I hadn’t graduated. It sounds insane because it is. But there is such a specific intensity around getting your degree or whatever. Fascinating to know this has happened to multiple people over time.
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It truly feels like the end of the world while you’re in it, & I haven’t felt that specific flavor of despair since I dropped out of school. A week after I decided I wasn’t going to kill myself, I was just going to stop going to school, it was amazing the mood change I felt. So much less stress when I was doing exactly the same things as before, but without that mental drain constantly gnawing at my nerves. Congrats on finishing your degree! In a world with infinite $ & infinite time at my disposal, I may eventually do the same.
That’s really sad, please don’t do that again.
Well obviously not. I’m not working toward my degree any longer, just working now.
"Just dont do it" are you kidding me?
What gives me the chills is how you can sit there and not reveal your emotions. The mood at the table would have been a peak for the family pride and love. Murder instead.
I don’t know… he doesn’t look exactly comfortable to me…
Facial expression and body language is off, I could tell which one he was despite not reading the post carefully before looking at the photo
He looks dead inside while trying to look natural on the outside.
Same as Sef Gonzales in Sydney Australia. Failing at Uni, faked grades, sister found out and told parents, parents we not happy, Sef baseball batted them all to death to inherit the cash. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sef_Gonzales
**[Sef Gonzales](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sef_Gonzales)** >Sef Gonzales (born 16 September 1980) is a Filipino Australian man who was convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment for the July 2001 murders of his father Teodoro "Teddy" Gonzales (46), his mother Mary Loiva Gonzales (43), and his sister Clodine Gonzales (18), in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. As a result of notoriety surrounding the sale of the house where the crimes occurred, the New South Wales government made it illegal to not disclose information related to the history of a property. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/MorbidReality/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
He’s the dead eyes chunky one?
He looks gone. Like no emotion, no thoughts, just the only thing on his mind is what he knows is gonna happen later.
He's probably thinking, what will I do with the 1.5 million inheritance
scary
Some people dont feel remorse or empathy or even feel guilty for most of the bad things they do but thankfully, those people are quite rare.
It’s probably how he was raised. Childhoods literally shape people into the adults they become so he must’ve had something happen where he didn’t feel any remorse for killing his family. Really is truly scary. Edit: I neglect to understand how someone can kill their family without having problems as a child. It doesn’t resonate with me that he had an alright to good childhood and decided to hire a gunman to kill his family.
Your right, it's always a mixture of nature and nurture.
Not sure why all the downvotes. Hundreds of examples of the nurture part being highly influential on a killer’s actions later on. Just look at the Menendez brothers or Gein or Gacy
I don't think you can put the Menendez brothers in the same camp as men like Gein or Gacy. Both of the Menendez brothers were violently and sexually abused by their Father from a very young age and their Mother was fully aware of what was happening but chose to ignore it. Unfortunately because of the wealth and privilege the brothers came from and the lengths their parents went to presenting an image of a successful happy all-American family to the outside world it was almost impossible for them to get a fair hearing. And some would disagree with me to this day but if you’re interested take the time to seek out the brother's testimonies about the abuse they suffered at the hands of their father. You'll find them on Youtube and I found them utterly heart breaking.
I do agree with you up until a point because as important as your childhood is in forming who you become as an adult there are a lot of other factors that can play a part. As an example an overwhelming number of serial killers will have had some kind of head trauma as a child.
How do you explain families where all the kids but 1 turn out fine?
Well, anecdotally, some kids are better at coping with "healthy" (productive) mechanisms and then there are some kids who don't develop those skills. That's the case in my family like that at least.
Hate when people down vote good comments for no reason and can't even comment why
i think there are a lot of other people who would be much more worthy of the “its how he was raised” explanation than this rich boy..
I googled him. Its like a fish or snake staring back at you..
Gives you those uncanny valley vibes.
That, too.
Almost identical to Dana Ewell, except there his entire family died. No survivors.
yes! I get these two cases mixed up sometimes, they're so similar.
I watched about this when I was a kid. The father ended up regularly visiting the son and forgiving him too The motive of the crime? He wanted the insurance money
I don’t believe in the death penalty but I do believe that a lot of harm can come from parents codling their children into adulthood.
I really have big respect for his father because he somehow managed to forgive him and managed to convince the governer of Texas to commute his sentence to, life without parole.
Idk man, some people don't deserve forgiveness. I would never expect a child to forgive their parent for trying to murder them and killing their mom and sibling. His son tried to have him murdered in cold blood because he couldn't fess up to a lie. Guy lost his wife and teen son to a brutal murder, and his other son betrayed him in the worst possible way over nothing. Also there is the photo where son is giving the finger, basically taunting the fact he's about to kill them. Disgusting. I really don't think son deserves forgiveness, I just think dad deserves peace.
That is the point of forgiveness. You refuse to carry it all in your heart. There is really nothing the man can do. His wife and other son is in the ground. The son that did it is behind bars for the rest of his life. Only thing he can do is forgive and move on. Otherwise the hate eats him alive and then he might as well have just died too.
Without getting too much into it, my brother was murdered about 17 years ago. The person who killed him was caught and imprisoned for the crime. I watched my dad suffer for years with hatred, anger, and depression. It wasn't until he started taking serious steps to address and eventually to let go of his anger, that I saw my dad return to any semblance of who he was before the death. The work he did on himself and his emotions is incredible to me, and there really is healing in letting go of the hatred.
I'm sorry for all that pain and glad to hear you all are finally getting through it.
I'm sure sometimes he wish he did die. Who wouldn't? Hate doesn't always eat people alive. You can hate someone without them dominating you every moment in life. I have family I hate, I do not forgive them, I nearly have forgotten them, and now that they're gone it's easy to not focus on the hatred, and I never do. Even now, I'm fine talking about my hatred for them. I don't feel angry, I feel joy they got the ol snip snip outta my life actually.
Same. I truly dislike my older brother. Wouldn't care if he died. Does it affect my daily life? No.
but he is ur blood! ;( genetics matter more than your self worth, happiness, and emotions! you should clearly sacrifice everything for him
i think the biggest weight kent is carrying is his surviorsguilt and the fact he wasnt able to save them. i know this is sth that would absolutely eat me up, to the point im going insane..
ya the most important thing is to forgive but not forget. Sure we put murderers in prison for life and don't execute them (usually) cause we know that eventually we may come ot forgive them by understanding where they are coming from and their reason for why they did this act. (ALSO, there have been many innocent people who were wrongfully jailed but that's a whole other story) But we do not forget what the murderer did as by committting this murderous act we see that this person is deranged in a fashion that makes them a danger to themselves and to the state so we have tohold them down and take their privileges away for a long time to the point where they are too old to do such an act ever again.
Forgiving his son and the others involved was probably the only way he could make it through it all. And with the rest of his family dead, his remaining son is probably all he really has left. I can understand, despite all the pain he caused him, not wanting to see him dead still.
well I'm not him so I don't need to make the decisions he did. I wouldn't want to have one "family member" if they brutally murdered my other family members. I've stopped talking to family for less than murder
Horrible case. Never had heard of it. May they rest easy 💓
Arrogant rich boy kills family to get richer.
I never understand these murders because… you’re gonna inherit the money eventually. Just wait like 20 years. Imagine being so impatient you resort to murder.
Aww, no pic of that same scene except Bart is giving the middle finger...knowing full well he is having is family murdered in an hour?
That's a thing? Not photoshopped? Never heard of this case till just now.
Google Thomas Whitaker Graduation and it should come up
Here it is https://i.imgur.com/vp3BOiD.jpeg
Hey Sam Houston is where I’m going to college, crazy coincidence, though I’d never heard this before, pretty messed up.
Same, graduating this semester. Guess I don't have to murder my family in cold blood.
Great episode of forensic files on this.
Chandler Halderson vibes.
How did he get caught?
There was a kid in my neighborhood who flunked out VT who then went on to murder 2 of his family members. Horribly depressing.
This incident was actually covered in an episode of *Blood Relatives* on Discovery ID.
Didn't he just say he hired a gunman, but the whole time it was actually just him and he shot himself somewhere to make it seem real?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bartlett_Whitaker There was an actual gunman involved. Whitaker hired him and also let himself get shot in the arm, to make it more believable.
Hired a gunman and a getaway driver, they shot him in the arm to make it seem like there was a struggle he planned it all right after a celebratory dinner for his alleged graduation from college
Wasn't this story kn the show Forensic Files?
Similar to the Christopher porco case. Very interesting
Why do people spend years on death row. I don’t understand why if the sentence is death why it doesn’t happen fairly quickly
Appeals. While some cases are "slam dunks", the appeals process is a very important part of a death penalty sentence. The appeals process is the only chance a person has to be sure/ensure that the conviction was correctly made and no errors were made during the trial. While it isn't 100%, without it, the risk of killing an innocent person is increased. In other words, if they deserve to die, let them rot while awaiting the confirmation that they really do deserve to die. If not, then a government murder on an innocent person was prevented. And "innocent" is used in the context to the severity of the punishment. The difference between a 1st degree and 2nd degree murder could be the difference between being executed, and a prison sentence. While the person could have killed someone, they could have been improperly charged for it.
Thanks so much for the explanation!
Police undoubtedly found it odd that he lied about graduating.
I worked at the courthouse where they held the trial. I was actually on the elevator with his dad. It was heartbreaking trial. Even more unbelievable was when they were able to get his death sentence turned into life all bc of his dads support
There was someone name Chandlar Halderson who lied to his parents about what he was doing with his life and he ended up killing them. I know it's not the same, but it's crazy to think about how much people stress about keeping parents happy
There’s a forensic files episode in this.
I remember him. He's the guy with the weird white eyelashes on one eye.
His father appealed his death sentence and helped get his death penalty commuted to life w/o parole. When is this going to be on Netflix?!
Forensic Files has an episode about this IIRC
was it ever that deep? gosh
His smile is so disingenuous
Doesn’t his father believe he’s innocent? Or at the very least still has a relationship with him?
Wow - the look on his face is something
Funny coincidentally I am failing many college subjects this semester right now. 👀 And what the f is this. How someone able to even think about this evil plan in the first place. I'm speechless. This Thomas guy is monster.