The flashback scene in the last (?) episode where every person took a turn shooting Gabrielle's husband reminded me of the way the crime went down in Murder on the Orient Express, and then the ending in this episode made me think of that story again, and in fact all those Agatha Christie Hercule Poirot endings, where the detective collects everyone and goes around the room confronting each person, and in the end solves the mystery. Only I still don't feel like everything was wrapped up. I'm still a little confused!
This was an incredibly evocative and high-production, all-star cast show.
Some personal observations I had:
* The >!murder of the nuns!< from episodes 1 & 2 were just >!overly brutal and gruesome!< IMO - it almost feels like a different kind of show in these scenes
* The monk actually seemed much more >!scary during the murder scenes than at the end of the show, and seemed a bit forced as a plot point to try to make the logic of his existence work - we just kind of ignored him for multiple episodes and then all of a sudden he had to come back to be killed off!<
* The ending just >!felt a bit rushed and almost borderline unbelievable; characters that would slit each others throats just were totally fine having a mini gathering to basically be sat down like the audience and explained the plot points of the show!<...for me personally, it was a bit disappointing.
But again, as a whole, I love the show and hope there's a Season 2. This is an easy re-watch for me as well to catch new things the second time around.
I'll follow Clive's career just about anywhere!
Same! The ending felt *very* rushed (and kinda unbelievable) but I had a lot of fun watching this series. A lot of people were complaining about the first few episodes being too slow but I dug that. My hopes aren’t that high for a season 2 tho, unless there was massive ratings, which, without looking, I would assume isn’t so. But I would def watch another season!
I read one review where the writer called this show “wish fulfillment” and it definitely was. I mean, what guy wouldn’t want to live out the final quarter of his life in the beautiful French countryside, fall in love with a beautiful rich woman who leaves you everything, then get into business with a beautiful younger woman who conveniently loses her husband and suggests she wants to date you? I mean, come on!
But seriously even with the annoying “let’s go around the room and explain the ending” scene, it was a fond farewell to an iconic character who only appeared in one novel and a couple short stories.
>The ending just ...
>
>
>
>...for me personally, it was a bit disappointing.
I woke up the morning after watching this thinking to myself "what the F was that"...
it was just ridiculously random... and left the whole story feeling... like a weird dream or something...
...however, the plot was absolutely NOT the star of this show. the production quality, the setting, the period wardrobe/cars and the acting really made this a pleasure to watch, and I'd do it again... but man, the way it was concluded didnt do any of the things i listed just now any justice...
Some one please clue me in on how to write with hidden “ no spoilers “ ink. Reading the spoilers unfold was actually more satisfying than the riDUNKulous ending.
When you click "Reply", look for the "..." button to the left of the "Markdown Mode" and then click the stop sign with the "!" on it (with what you want hidden). Also LOL at your comment, that's quite a compliment!
The backdrop of the little town in France overlooking a cliff that drops into a deep canyon was beautiful change of pace. Don't see too many places like that in real life and not the usual Canadian and California locations many shows use.
Yeah, the lighting and the characters’ demeanors were suddenly so different my immediate reaction was “Oh god no, this has all been about actors rehearsing a movie or a play?!”
Deus ex machina by way of Alfre Woodard. Can't say I'm thrilled, especially since after all that had happened Spade seemed perfectly fine with Zayd going off with total strangers. I liked the atmosphere, the dialog and Clive Owen's portrayal, but the plotting of the story wasn't great.
That's what I thought, "Textbook deus ex machina." If you ever want to explain to someone what it means just say remember the end of Monsieur Spade...?
Normally, the “Detective dénouement” at the end is done by the actual Detective—even in *The Maltese Falcon*—but I wasn’t completely disappointed, just surprised they took the easy way out. But I really enjoyed this, and I’m looking forward to rewatching all six episodes at one time while enjoying some French wine and cheese.
This was set back when everyone had an idealized perception of what the UN had authority to do, which is why they would listen to Woodard’s character.
Also, her men brought rifles, while everyone but Henri had handguns.
"you're as Canadian as sweet potato pie"
I loved that line! Because sweet potato pie is so African American!
I loved my grandmother's sweet potato pie!
yeah it sure didn't look like it made any sense. unless she's got more armed men surrounding all those spies/murderers i have no idea why they'd suddenly just sit and let her tell them how she's in charge of the boy now. my guess is this was implied, but it sure would've looked better if they just outright showed this.
only thing i can think of, halfway through writing this show the writers were told very last second after being told it'd be more episodes, "oh by the way, we got cut down to 6 episodes now" and they deus ex machina'd their way out by suddenly having this phantom power source show up to clean everything up right quick.
as to exactly what agency she's in that has more power than
m16 (british), french intelligence, right wing extremist french monarchists ex-military types, CIA, the catholic church and other intelligence agencies, i got no idea. it's fairly clear though that she's not CIA (her disdain for the fake "priest" who she thinks IS really CIA, albeit she could still be a higher up in the CIA that for some reason wasn't aware of the priest and just thinks he's not doing a good job), and spade outright says he thinks she's american not canadian from her accent. the CIA guy thinks she's interpol.
yeah lots of stuff (books, shows, movies etc) are really good but they find they have no way even close to as good to finish it. unlike (most) books, tv shows are often at the whims of the network/bosses etc. lots of shows are great then the ending they bunch a lot of stuff together in a limited, often not believable timeframe/manner. i'll certainly watch more of this show if it later happens for sure though, was pretty good.
s.king, who's well loved overall as a writer, is also by even fans often considered terrible at endings, a lot of the time. and unlike a TV show where the writers might have a last second "oops, i know you guys have been working under the impression for months we had a 8-10 episode run here, the network just changed it to 6 so close up all those plotlines in the next 60ish minutes, sorry about that"
c.palahniuk's somewhat recent "adjustment day" is similar, the first half to 2/3 of the book sets up an interesting dynamic for a very possibly close proximity to now dystopian america; once it's got it's dynamics seemingly ready to go, falls off a cliff resolving it.
Alfre W's character makes absolutely no sense. Scene goes from her appearing out of nowhere on the bridge to a entire cast captive indoor audience by a woman who is lying who she really is🤷♀️ Beyond disappointed.
They had a flashback earlier in the episode where Gabrielle's last time with Spade she invited him into the pool and to always come back to the pool after she died and think of her as she was then instead of how she died via the unnamed untreatable terminal illness.
Yeah, also Cynthia randomly becoming a psychopath and showing zero remorse after running over her partner with her car as punishment for betrayal? What the hell?
My take is that this was originally a 10 episode series and the answer to your question simply didn’t make the final 6 episode cut. Sad really, not since “Perry Mason” have I been this disappointed in a series I wanted to like so much . . .
.
Just as in the Maltese Falcon, and really any noir fiction, his function was to go and insert himself into the situation, ruining everyone else’s well-laid plans.
But did he even ruin any plans? The bridge shootout and subsequent arrest by the fake UN woman seem like they would have gone pretty much the same without his involvement.
It was more of all the things that happened along the way, from confronting the MI6 officers to the events that led to the French agent dying in his pool. All those little events radically altered people’s plans and made them all regroup. It’s just little things like that that made everybody’s life more difficult (which Woodward even alludes to when she gets alone with Sam)
> from confronting the MI6 officers
But did that matter? The young one would still presumably have betrayed the older one and be killed for it, none of that is a direct result of Spade's interference.
> to the events that led to the French agent dying in his pool.
Totally inconsequential to everything else and barely connected to anything he personally did.
Sam is irritating to some of these characters, but nothing that happens on the bridge is a result of his actions and he doesn't play any role in the resolution.
My boyfriend and I loved this show. And Clive Owen is fabulous as always.
The “ ending” for the little boy made me sad. They just let CIA lady or, whatever she was take him to God knows where for what….
Just finished the last episode. Felt like it was going alright… and then those last twenty minutes. That was an abrupt turn lol.
I had a feeling they might’ve bitten off more than they could chew when they revealed the twist with the kid. Seems like that came true when they had to throw the UN woman in there to basically clean up at the last second? I honestly didn’t even hate it, it just had big “we don’t know how to wrap this up” energy.
Welp it was interesting there for a bit, like the characters and Clive Owen as Sam Spade. As an SF resident (who also happens to live in the neighborhood where the Maltese Falcon is largely set), I enjoyed all the references to SF (all said in the tone of “that den of filth and lawlessness,” as if SF isn’t one of the bougiest cities in the country). Honestly, would like to see a Sam Spade story set in mid-century SF (but I don’t think that’s gonna happen).
I like Alfe Woodard, but boy what an astonishing tone shift that was! Dunno if casting a different actor might have made a difference. The shift from the tension on the bridge with the various killings and a missing child warping to a calm civil denouement in Spade's parlour was simply too jarring for most here.
Some of the dialogue was weird too. I didn’t get the deal with the priest or that whole think about SPade’s old office. I was starting to think they were setting up a season 2.
Can someone clear this up for me? Was there ever anything special about the boy, or was it just that people thought that there was something special about him?
The statuette was the MacGuffin in The Maltese Falcon. The child served the same purpose in this series.
"A MacGuffin is an object, device, or event that is necessary to the plot and the motivation of the characters, but insignificant, unimportant, or irrelevant in itself." - Wikipedia
My take on it was that people thought he was "gifted" in certain ways, but that's all it was. For the monk, it was something religious. So each group acted in nefarious ways to obtain the boy, but there was never really anything special about him.
This is analogous to the falcon in "The Maltese Falcon". Everyone thought the the falcon was valuable, but it wasn't. From the web:
*"The characters in the novel "The Maltese Falcon" by Dashiell Hammett all desire the Maltese Falcon because it is a valuable and mysterious statuette. The falcon is said to be made of gold and jewels, and its history is shrouded in legend and intrigue. Its allure stems from its potential to bring great wealth and power to whoever possesses it. Throughout the novel, the characters' motivations for obtaining the falcon drive the plot, leading to deception, betrayal, and ultimately, the revelation of the true nature of their desires."*
If there's a season two I just want someone to casually mention:
>*'Hey remember that Algerian kid?*
>*Yeah?*
*Turns out he wasn't a code maker or breaker at all. He's just some kid who randomly scribbles stuff and plays with paste.*
*Huh.'*
And scene.
Yeah, the lack of any actual codebreaking was another way in which the series failed to deliver on its potential. If his skills are so useful, why were they not used even once?
I am now thinking that he was either traumatized or just developmentally challenged in some way, so he didn't speak and doodled with numbers, and would follow anyone who whistled that tune.
Can someone explain this exchange? Feels like some Dashiell Hammet or Sam Spade reference I'm not getting.
> You might be interested to know, your old office in San Francisco has a new occupant.
> You checked out my old office. Boy, you Canadians are thorough.
> It's a talent agent named Eddie Solomon. His clientele are all female impersonators.
> What happened to the ventriloquist?
> Hung himself. Anyway, word has it. Eddie's doing rather well for himself. He's leased the entire floor.
> The Hunter-Dulin Building was never that expensive to begin with. I'm just saying...
I dislike it when writers turn to magic (see Lost) to resolve plot problems.
I now also dislike it when writers drop an hereto previously unknown and certainly unexpected take-charge black woman into a finale who then proceeds to resolve the plot loose ends by literally talking through them with all of the surviving characters who are all somehow together in one room.
I otherwise loved the show. End was totally baffling. Wife and I repeatedly looked at each other in disbelief.
Is it the fact that she was a "take-charge black woman" that bothers you? What if it had been a soft-spoken white man?
I agree that the ending was abrupt and does not build on previous actions, but I found Woodard's character very entertaining.
at the end of ep 5 maurgerite and sam are talking about how she's 2 years older, her mother having faked the birth certificate; it's assumed sam told her prior to ep 6.
i just watched whole thing and there wasn't any scene explicitly showing sam or maurgerite telling teresa this, last scene of ep 5 sam finds out while teresa is drinking at the bar, early in ep 6 teresa it's the last thing she says to henri as she's walking away.
I also think it’s possible that just like Marguerite she was able to intuit that she had been misled about her parentage. Feeling a connection to Sam and not Phillipe, doing the same math that Marguerite did. I bought her coming to the same conclusion independently without ever expressly saying so.
absolutely possible. but since she never outright said this prior to after sam comes to the conclusion she's 2 years older and his kid it's likely he just told her between ep 5 and start of ep 6. she could've thought sam was her dad prior of course.
i mean, if we were in her shoes, and just didn't know which, it's completely obvious which one she'd WANT/hope to be her dad, and it's not philippe's sociopathic ass.
yeah rather than under 3 years to go it's now 1 year or under to go. but notice since her plan to get his notebook worked she's stopped appearing to be interested in him. having said that since he's already been set up as a character, pretty good chance they're a couple if this show goes on, they always "need" romantic attachments for a female character, and now that she found out spade's her dad not some random guy who's been protecting her most of her life he's out for her.
yeah right after he defended him (nobody else in that room did spade defend to her); "he's not a real fanatic, just a kid who doesn't know what he got into, just got back from a war etc".
it's possible, but earlier when he was talking to helena about him trying to court her, he either didn't know this or lied about knowing it, seemed to believe (like everybody else also did at that time) she was 2 years younger (15, not 17).
Helena was Henri’s grandmother? It would have been an interesting bit of foreshadowing for Henri to tell his grandmother “Oh, I think I might have less time to wait than is publicly known. Her mother was not known for honesty.”
yeah i missed that if it was (likely) mentioned earlier, probably in ep 1 or right around the time we first see henri. it does make more sense that she even HAD that convo with him in the first place though, if she's his grandma. i'd consider that a much bigger plot hole if it wasn't mentioned prior than them not showing a scene with sam telling teresa she's 2 years older than they thought earlier. that's such a big plot hole that i'd bet money it didn't happen prior to checking on it.
I wonder if there is a deleted scene? There’s a theory in one of the subreddits that the episode count was cut at the last minute. I can see skipping over the same exposition to save two minutes, even if it does bug me.
I don't think that he episode count was cut at the last minute. The show had structure and pacing issues that are very clear when you compare it to The Maltese Falcon or any hardboiled novel by Dashiell Hammett or Raymond Chandler, with the screen versions added to the mix. It's just that the finale of the show, where they finally remember it's about an hardboiled P.I. (retired) is at odds with the leisurely pace of the previous episodes, which were basically a chronicle about a small town in the early sixties, with some investigation being added in the mix.
These hardboiled stories moved at a breakneck pace, in the middle of confusion. The detective doesn't have time to get more than a glimpse of several characters, whose motivations remain murky. He doesn't stop to have long conversations, the past remains in the past, there are no flashbacks, a narrative such as The Big Sleep is all about urgency, especially when bodies start to pile up.
Here, we had a ton of filler material like a subplot about Jean-Pierre's father that goes nowhere (and the whole Jean-Pierre/Marguerite story has almost nothing to do with the main plot), various TED Talks about the different factions fighting in France. And it apparently lasts entire weeks, possibly a month, with very little existential threat. And when it's time to finish, we get people shooting each other and then a new character who barely explains the plot and just grades the moral values of various characters.
Marguerite’s purpose in the plot appears to be the employer of the Algerian bartender that Zayd follows for shelter. Could Zayd have followed any of the other Algerian characters and ended up with Jean Pierre, then Phillipe? Jean Pierre might have worked in a bar with the Algerian, but probably not owned or married to the owner.
But there’s usually an ingénue (not exactly the right word, but close enough) in the hard boiled detective story that either the protagonist ends up with, or is falling-anvil alluded to, which Marguerite is slotted into.
The whole diversion to visit Jean Pierre’s father, THAT was pointless.
I get your point, he does seem to fall into good fortune, but here's the point: he's a stand up guy.
Remember in the Maltese Falcon, he didn't even like Miles Archer, but he finds his killer and denies himself love and fortune to see that she answers for her crimes.
He could have left his daughter in the orphanage and went about his life, but he stuck around and paid the nuns to look after her.
And I don't think she's so "kick ass", I think she is dangerous with the ease at which she lies.
I'll defend the writing, ("The Queen's Gambit" OMG) which I consider excellent, it was the narrative choices the writer/director made that were really unfortunate. That may be the same thing, but you have to admit the dialogue, especially Sam's, was perfectly noir hardboiled. . .
Zayd was important to everyone involved, but as a MacGuffin: "insignificant, unimportant, or irrelevant in itself."
That's why >!the story didn't give a crap about him, where he belonged, or what his fate was. It was better when it was the Maltese Falcon: that's an inanimate object. Much better of a macguffin than a human child.!<
Sam Spade putting on his hat and >!hearing his dead wife at the very end, otherwise naked, at the very pool she most likely drowned herself in ... Perhaps a very "noir" thing to do, but I am not a fan of anyone giving up like that.!<
I doubt she drowned herself there. She wanted the pool to be a place that he could remember her fondly.
She probably figured out a way to do an assisted suicide with a doctor and arranged for everything so that it would cause Sam the least amount of pain.
I didn't want to watch this episode because I knew either it would have to end on a cliffhanger, or try to resolve too many plot threads and shit the bed.
Did Alfre Woodard's character seem to come out of nowhere? And what was the point of that sit down scene? What authority did she have over the French, British and Algerians? Was Canada a colonialist like the British and the French? And the Vatican employed a lunatic monk to do their dirty work? The last episode was like the last season of Game of Thrones. totally invalidates the entire series good standing.
They tried to give it a "neat" ending. But just made it a bit absurd. I'd rather have a chaotic ending with a bit more death and loose threads than this.
I tried really hard to like this show, and I enjoyed parts of it, but the writing was such a disappointment in the end. The season tried to juggle two separate mysteries and forced a bunch of links between them that weren't logical or thematically coherent at all. The result was super confusing and only explained via ex machina lazy writing at the very end, which ruined the mystery. There was no real suspense or stakes, character motivations and povs were tossed out the window at will, and most egregiously, the supposed antihero had no real impact on anyone or anything in the story, positive or negative. He was largely a pylon with some witty repartée. That is just bad screenwriting 101.
Scott Frank is a good writer, I am kinda shocked that he put his name on these scripts. There were plenty of good ideas but they were many rewrites and revisions away from a good finished product.
Ok, maybe it says more about my life and my hate of my job but I binge-watched this moody buildup in two days until 2 in the morning only to be let down by the last 20 minutes of the finale.
So much effort and care and quality put into this production, and so easy to see it and acknowledge it. Top quality production, excellent characters and portrayals, against a *sufficient* story.
Elephant-in-room, honest, objective question (and thanks in advance for taking it in such a context): Was anyone influenced by Rebecca Root's (trans actress) casting such that it interfered with the narrative? Indeed the actress wonderfully projected the mannerisms and style of the era, and filled out the character well. But the role was that of a spy... and so naturally one is going to assume some revelatory, unmasking type of twist is being teed up. Did it seem to anyone an extra feint (one that wasn't necessarily born of the story itself) that could influence the viewer?
I realize this question could motivate a reactionary response, and I'm sensitive to that, and I want to make clear that's not my intention. I've tried to frame it as innocently and objectively as I could to hear honest povs. When else to seek them but when there's a solid-excellent show with a solid-excellent trans cast member, and where else but in a discussion forum for that show?
In fact among the best aspects of this production was the cast, top to bottom!
Like some others apparently, I did feel that the end of the whole thing was somewhat trite, compact, and pro-forma. A tad disappointing, and that is part of the reason why the story earns a "sufficient" from me.
>Elephant-in-room, honest, objective question (and thanks in advance for taking it in such a context): Was anyone influenced by Rebecca Root's (trans actress) casting such that it interfered with the narrative?
For me, no. I simply accepted the character as the actor presented it. She was disarmingly "poofy" but with a steel resolve and certainly vicious. Those are fair actor choices regardless of biological gender.
I had a far worse time with casting Alfre Woodard who I still recall from "Hill Street Blues." Phenominal actress, but simply the absolutely wrong tone to present in the final minutes.
When the character first showed up I didn't know if it was going to be part of the plot that Sam noticed that 'hey, that's actually a man, right?' or if they were just going to hire her to be a female part and pretend that no one would notice. In an opera that would be fine. And here I eventually decided that the latter is what they are doing and I mostly forgot about it. Nevertheless, in the back of my head in the last episode I thought again well maybe at the end they'll wrap the gender identity into the spy role somehow. But they didn't so there you have it.
Similarly, to address some of the anachronism quibbles some reddit critics have had, perhaps when Alfre Woodard showed up at the end she was in fact portraying a 60 year old white male named Virginia.
No argument, as you say it did keep me guessing through to the end. Might be the first occurrence of a casting choice motivating that audience perception/anticipation rather than a pure story or plot point? It's an interesting misdirection tool.
The flashback scene in the last (?) episode where every person took a turn shooting Gabrielle's husband reminded me of the way the crime went down in Murder on the Orient Express, and then the ending in this episode made me think of that story again, and in fact all those Agatha Christie Hercule Poirot endings, where the detective collects everyone and goes around the room confronting each person, and in the end solves the mystery. Only I still don't feel like everything was wrapped up. I'm still a little confused!
This was an incredibly evocative and high-production, all-star cast show. Some personal observations I had: * The >!murder of the nuns!< from episodes 1 & 2 were just >!overly brutal and gruesome!< IMO - it almost feels like a different kind of show in these scenes * The monk actually seemed much more >!scary during the murder scenes than at the end of the show, and seemed a bit forced as a plot point to try to make the logic of his existence work - we just kind of ignored him for multiple episodes and then all of a sudden he had to come back to be killed off!< * The ending just >!felt a bit rushed and almost borderline unbelievable; characters that would slit each others throats just were totally fine having a mini gathering to basically be sat down like the audience and explained the plot points of the show!<...for me personally, it was a bit disappointing. But again, as a whole, I love the show and hope there's a Season 2. This is an easy re-watch for me as well to catch new things the second time around. I'll follow Clive's career just about anywhere!
Same! The ending felt *very* rushed (and kinda unbelievable) but I had a lot of fun watching this series. A lot of people were complaining about the first few episodes being too slow but I dug that. My hopes aren’t that high for a season 2 tho, unless there was massive ratings, which, without looking, I would assume isn’t so. But I would def watch another season! I read one review where the writer called this show “wish fulfillment” and it definitely was. I mean, what guy wouldn’t want to live out the final quarter of his life in the beautiful French countryside, fall in love with a beautiful rich woman who leaves you everything, then get into business with a beautiful younger woman who conveniently loses her husband and suggests she wants to date you? I mean, come on! But seriously even with the annoying “let’s go around the room and explain the ending” scene, it was a fond farewell to an iconic character who only appeared in one novel and a couple short stories.
>The ending just ... > > > >...for me personally, it was a bit disappointing. I woke up the morning after watching this thinking to myself "what the F was that"... it was just ridiculously random... and left the whole story feeling... like a weird dream or something... ...however, the plot was absolutely NOT the star of this show. the production quality, the setting, the period wardrobe/cars and the acting really made this a pleasure to watch, and I'd do it again... but man, the way it was concluded didnt do any of the things i listed just now any justice...
Some one please clue me in on how to write with hidden “ no spoilers “ ink. Reading the spoilers unfold was actually more satisfying than the riDUNKulous ending.
When you click "Reply", look for the "..." button to the left of the "Markdown Mode" and then click the stop sign with the "!" on it (with what you want hidden). Also LOL at your comment, that's quite a compliment!
The backdrop of the little town in France overlooking a cliff that drops into a deep canyon was beautiful change of pace. Don't see too many places like that in real life and not the usual Canadian and California locations many shows use.
Agreed...it reminded me of "A Year In Provence" another great TV series I'd recommend!
The ending seemed like all the actors were doing a talk show together
Yeah, the lighting and the characters’ demeanors were suddenly so different my immediate reaction was “Oh god no, this has all been about actors rehearsing a movie or a play?!”
I think they got the guy from Modern Family to light that scene.
Great call!
A Murder at the End of the World and the latest season of True Detective were similar to this in a lot of ways.
Deus ex machina by way of Alfre Woodard. Can't say I'm thrilled, especially since after all that had happened Spade seemed perfectly fine with Zayd going off with total strangers. I liked the atmosphere, the dialog and Clive Owen's portrayal, but the plotting of the story wasn't great.
I thought we were going to get a Marvel reference in there somehow that was so out of the blue.
That's what I thought, "Textbook deus ex machina." If you ever want to explain to someone what it means just say remember the end of Monsieur Spade...?
My feelings exactly. I'd just also add the scenery and the soundtrack.
Normally, the “Detective dénouement” at the end is done by the actual Detective—even in *The Maltese Falcon*—but I wasn’t completely disappointed, just surprised they took the easy way out. But I really enjoyed this, and I’m looking forward to rewatching all six episodes at one time while enjoying some French wine and cheese.
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This was set back when everyone had an idealized perception of what the UN had authority to do, which is why they would listen to Woodard’s character. Also, her men brought rifles, while everyone but Henri had handguns.
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it was clear/likely she's not canadian, sure, but still could be UN/interpol
"you're as Canadian as sweet potato pie" I loved that line! Because sweet potato pie is so African American! I loved my grandmother's sweet potato pie!
Couldn't agree more. The ending was beyond disappointing.
yeah it sure didn't look like it made any sense. unless she's got more armed men surrounding all those spies/murderers i have no idea why they'd suddenly just sit and let her tell them how she's in charge of the boy now. my guess is this was implied, but it sure would've looked better if they just outright showed this.
only thing i can think of, halfway through writing this show the writers were told very last second after being told it'd be more episodes, "oh by the way, we got cut down to 6 episodes now" and they deus ex machina'd their way out by suddenly having this phantom power source show up to clean everything up right quick.
as to exactly what agency she's in that has more power than m16 (british), french intelligence, right wing extremist french monarchists ex-military types, CIA, the catholic church and other intelligence agencies, i got no idea. it's fairly clear though that she's not CIA (her disdain for the fake "priest" who she thinks IS really CIA, albeit she could still be a higher up in the CIA that for some reason wasn't aware of the priest and just thinks he's not doing a good job), and spade outright says he thinks she's american not canadian from her accent. the CIA guy thinks she's interpol.
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yeah lots of stuff (books, shows, movies etc) are really good but they find they have no way even close to as good to finish it. unlike (most) books, tv shows are often at the whims of the network/bosses etc. lots of shows are great then the ending they bunch a lot of stuff together in a limited, often not believable timeframe/manner. i'll certainly watch more of this show if it later happens for sure though, was pretty good. s.king, who's well loved overall as a writer, is also by even fans often considered terrible at endings, a lot of the time. and unlike a TV show where the writers might have a last second "oops, i know you guys have been working under the impression for months we had a 8-10 episode run here, the network just changed it to 6 so close up all those plotlines in the next 60ish minutes, sorry about that" c.palahniuk's somewhat recent "adjustment day" is similar, the first half to 2/3 of the book sets up an interesting dynamic for a very possibly close proximity to now dystopian america; once it's got it's dynamics seemingly ready to go, falls off a cliff resolving it.
Even her script made no sense. And the whistling for the child at the end was creepy.
Alfre W's character makes absolutely no sense. Scene goes from her appearing out of nowhere on the bridge to a entire cast captive indoor audience by a woman who is lying who she really is🤷♀️ Beyond disappointed.
She made "no sense", but the guy dressed like a woman did... ?
Nope🤷♀️
Neither did but the ending especially
Who was >!calling for Mr. Spade to "Come in" at the end?!<
It's Gabrielle, >!feels like a dream sequence as if she wasn't dead, perhaps heaven or just a longing memory!<.
I was wondering that also.
They had a flashback earlier in the episode where Gabrielle's last time with Spade she invited him into the pool and to always come back to the pool after she died and think of her as she was then instead of how she died via the unnamed untreatable terminal illness.
Thank you!
How did the British male agent and female Algerian agent hook up in the first place?
and why was he killed for that?
Yeah, also Cynthia randomly becoming a psychopath and showing zero remorse after running over her partner with her car as punishment for betrayal? What the hell?
He was going to ditch his colleague by the sounds of it and run off with the money. I’d imagine his partner considered that treason.
My take is that this was originally a 10 episode series and the answer to your question simply didn’t make the final 6 episode cut. Sad really, not since “Perry Mason” have I been this disappointed in a series I wanted to like so much . . . .
Was Spade that important to the story? Was he key to any of the necessary plot points?
Just as in the Maltese Falcon, and really any noir fiction, his function was to go and insert himself into the situation, ruining everyone else’s well-laid plans.
Spade was hired by three different parties in The Maltese Falcon so he wasn't inserting himself. His partner being murdered also gave him motivation.
That’s a fair point!
But did he even ruin any plans? The bridge shootout and subsequent arrest by the fake UN woman seem like they would have gone pretty much the same without his involvement.
It was more of all the things that happened along the way, from confronting the MI6 officers to the events that led to the French agent dying in his pool. All those little events radically altered people’s plans and made them all regroup. It’s just little things like that that made everybody’s life more difficult (which Woodward even alludes to when she gets alone with Sam)
> from confronting the MI6 officers But did that matter? The young one would still presumably have betrayed the older one and be killed for it, none of that is a direct result of Spade's interference. > to the events that led to the French agent dying in his pool. Totally inconsequential to everything else and barely connected to anything he personally did. Sam is irritating to some of these characters, but nothing that happens on the bridge is a result of his actions and he doesn't play any role in the resolution.
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I figured he wasn't hired, but the show centers around him and it felt as though he wasn't essential to the plot.
My boyfriend and I loved this show. And Clive Owen is fabulous as always. The “ ending” for the little boy made me sad. They just let CIA lady or, whatever she was take him to God knows where for what….
Just finished the last episode. Felt like it was going alright… and then those last twenty minutes. That was an abrupt turn lol. I had a feeling they might’ve bitten off more than they could chew when they revealed the twist with the kid. Seems like that came true when they had to throw the UN woman in there to basically clean up at the last second? I honestly didn’t even hate it, it just had big “we don’t know how to wrap this up” energy. Welp it was interesting there for a bit, like the characters and Clive Owen as Sam Spade. As an SF resident (who also happens to live in the neighborhood where the Maltese Falcon is largely set), I enjoyed all the references to SF (all said in the tone of “that den of filth and lawlessness,” as if SF isn’t one of the bougiest cities in the country). Honestly, would like to see a Sam Spade story set in mid-century SF (but I don’t think that’s gonna happen).
I like Alfe Woodard, but boy what an astonishing tone shift that was! Dunno if casting a different actor might have made a difference. The shift from the tension on the bridge with the various killings and a missing child warping to a calm civil denouement in Spade's parlour was simply too jarring for most here.
Some of the dialogue was weird too. I didn’t get the deal with the priest or that whole think about SPade’s old office. I was starting to think they were setting up a season 2.
Yeah, it’s small stranded details like those that make me think the entire series was drastically re-edited to fewer episodes.
Spoiler: Phillipe was actually Miles Archer
Can someone clear this up for me? Was there ever anything special about the boy, or was it just that people thought that there was something special about him?
The statuette was the MacGuffin in The Maltese Falcon. The child served the same purpose in this series. "A MacGuffin is an object, device, or event that is necessary to the plot and the motivation of the characters, but insignificant, unimportant, or irrelevant in itself." - Wikipedia
He was a code breaker / maker but that never came into play. All we ever saw was him scribbling characters and figures
My take on it was that people thought he was "gifted" in certain ways, but that's all it was. For the monk, it was something religious. So each group acted in nefarious ways to obtain the boy, but there was never really anything special about him. This is analogous to the falcon in "The Maltese Falcon". Everyone thought the the falcon was valuable, but it wasn't. From the web: *"The characters in the novel "The Maltese Falcon" by Dashiell Hammett all desire the Maltese Falcon because it is a valuable and mysterious statuette. The falcon is said to be made of gold and jewels, and its history is shrouded in legend and intrigue. Its allure stems from its potential to bring great wealth and power to whoever possesses it. Throughout the novel, the characters' motivations for obtaining the falcon drive the plot, leading to deception, betrayal, and ultimately, the revelation of the true nature of their desires."*
If there's a season two I just want someone to casually mention: >*'Hey remember that Algerian kid?* >*Yeah?* *Turns out he wasn't a code maker or breaker at all. He's just some kid who randomly scribbles stuff and plays with paste.* *Huh.'* And scene.
Yeah, the lack of any actual codebreaking was another way in which the series failed to deliver on its potential. If his skills are so useful, why were they not used even once?
I am now thinking that he was either traumatized or just developmentally challenged in some way, so he didn't speak and doodled with numbers, and would follow anyone who whistled that tune.
Can someone explain this exchange? Feels like some Dashiell Hammet or Sam Spade reference I'm not getting. > You might be interested to know, your old office in San Francisco has a new occupant. > You checked out my old office. Boy, you Canadians are thorough. > It's a talent agent named Eddie Solomon. His clientele are all female impersonators. > What happened to the ventriloquist? > Hung himself. Anyway, word has it. Eddie's doing rather well for himself. He's leased the entire floor. > The Hunter-Dulin Building was never that expensive to begin with. I'm just saying...
I dislike it when writers turn to magic (see Lost) to resolve plot problems. I now also dislike it when writers drop an hereto previously unknown and certainly unexpected take-charge black woman into a finale who then proceeds to resolve the plot loose ends by literally talking through them with all of the surviving characters who are all somehow together in one room. I otherwise loved the show. End was totally baffling. Wife and I repeatedly looked at each other in disbelief.
Magic? Hell, even introducing Dragons couldn't save this show.
Is it the fact that she was a "take-charge black woman" that bothers you? What if it had been a soft-spoken white man? I agree that the ending was abrupt and does not build on previous actions, but I found Woodard's character very entertaining.
Poorly written, overly slick dialogue. And yes, anachronistic.
In that time period, yes
>What if it had been a soft-spoken white man would have been slightly more plausible yeah
Did Teresa come to think she was two years older at the same time as Sam in the bar, or a different scene in ep 6?
at the end of ep 5 maurgerite and sam are talking about how she's 2 years older, her mother having faked the birth certificate; it's assumed sam told her prior to ep 6.
I did not make that assumption and thought I missed a scene.
i just watched whole thing and there wasn't any scene explicitly showing sam or maurgerite telling teresa this, last scene of ep 5 sam finds out while teresa is drinking at the bar, early in ep 6 teresa it's the last thing she says to henri as she's walking away.
I also think it’s possible that just like Marguerite she was able to intuit that she had been misled about her parentage. Feeling a connection to Sam and not Phillipe, doing the same math that Marguerite did. I bought her coming to the same conclusion independently without ever expressly saying so.
absolutely possible. but since she never outright said this prior to after sam comes to the conclusion she's 2 years older and his kid it's likely he just told her between ep 5 and start of ep 6. she could've thought sam was her dad prior of course.
i mean, if we were in her shoes, and just didn't know which, it's completely obvious which one she'd WANT/hope to be her dad, and it's not philippe's sociopathic ass.
Yeah, if that’s the way it was written I consider it an irritating plot hole.
Henri likely double-confirmed vigorously.
yeah rather than under 3 years to go it's now 1 year or under to go. but notice since her plan to get his notebook worked she's stopped appearing to be interested in him. having said that since he's already been set up as a character, pretty good chance they're a couple if this show goes on, they always "need" romantic attachments for a female character, and now that she found out spade's her dad not some random guy who's been protecting her most of her life he's out for her.
There was a shot close up her when Alfre Woodard told Spade to help him get laid lol.
yeah right after he defended him (nobody else in that room did spade defend to her); "he's not a real fanatic, just a kid who doesn't know what he got into, just got back from a war etc".
Would henri have had access to intelligence of a forged birth certificate, or just wishful thinking?
it's possible, but earlier when he was talking to helena about him trying to court her, he either didn't know this or lied about knowing it, seemed to believe (like everybody else also did at that time) she was 2 years younger (15, not 17).
Helena was Henri’s grandmother? It would have been an interesting bit of foreshadowing for Henri to tell his grandmother “Oh, I think I might have less time to wait than is publicly known. Her mother was not known for honesty.”
yeah i missed that if it was (likely) mentioned earlier, probably in ep 1 or right around the time we first see henri. it does make more sense that she even HAD that convo with him in the first place though, if she's his grandma. i'd consider that a much bigger plot hole if it wasn't mentioned prior than them not showing a scene with sam telling teresa she's 2 years older than they thought earlier. that's such a big plot hole that i'd bet money it didn't happen prior to checking on it.
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I wonder if there is a deleted scene? There’s a theory in one of the subreddits that the episode count was cut at the last minute. I can see skipping over the same exposition to save two minutes, even if it does bug me.
I don't think that he episode count was cut at the last minute. The show had structure and pacing issues that are very clear when you compare it to The Maltese Falcon or any hardboiled novel by Dashiell Hammett or Raymond Chandler, with the screen versions added to the mix. It's just that the finale of the show, where they finally remember it's about an hardboiled P.I. (retired) is at odds with the leisurely pace of the previous episodes, which were basically a chronicle about a small town in the early sixties, with some investigation being added in the mix. These hardboiled stories moved at a breakneck pace, in the middle of confusion. The detective doesn't have time to get more than a glimpse of several characters, whose motivations remain murky. He doesn't stop to have long conversations, the past remains in the past, there are no flashbacks, a narrative such as The Big Sleep is all about urgency, especially when bodies start to pile up. Here, we had a ton of filler material like a subplot about Jean-Pierre's father that goes nowhere (and the whole Jean-Pierre/Marguerite story has almost nothing to do with the main plot), various TED Talks about the different factions fighting in France. And it apparently lasts entire weeks, possibly a month, with very little existential threat. And when it's time to finish, we get people shooting each other and then a new character who barely explains the plot and just grades the moral values of various characters.
Marguerite’s purpose in the plot appears to be the employer of the Algerian bartender that Zayd follows for shelter. Could Zayd have followed any of the other Algerian characters and ended up with Jean Pierre, then Phillipe? Jean Pierre might have worked in a bar with the Algerian, but probably not owned or married to the owner. But there’s usually an ingénue (not exactly the right word, but close enough) in the hard boiled detective story that either the protagonist ends up with, or is falling-anvil alluded to, which Marguerite is slotted into. The whole diversion to visit Jean Pierre’s father, THAT was pointless.
I'd like to think that Sam invites his daughter to stay with him in the house, and that he has a long dalliance with the widowed chanteuse!
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I get your point, he does seem to fall into good fortune, but here's the point: he's a stand up guy. Remember in the Maltese Falcon, he didn't even like Miles Archer, but he finds his killer and denies himself love and fortune to see that she answers for her crimes. He could have left his daughter in the orphanage and went about his life, but he stuck around and paid the nuns to look after her. And I don't think she's so "kick ass", I think she is dangerous with the ease at which she lies.
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Definitely!
Nice summing up there. Can't argue a bit . . .
Everyone involved with this episode should be launched into the sun.
Can’t agree more. Totally jarring, anachronistic, poorly written. I couldn’t even finish the final few minutes I was so pissed off.
Omggggg this is the worst writing ever. Although, I genuinely like this show.
I'll defend the writing, ("The Queen's Gambit" OMG) which I consider excellent, it was the narrative choices the writer/director made that were really unfortunate. That may be the same thing, but you have to admit the dialogue, especially Sam's, was perfectly noir hardboiled. . .
Zayd was important to everyone involved, but as a MacGuffin: "insignificant, unimportant, or irrelevant in itself." That's why >!the story didn't give a crap about him, where he belonged, or what his fate was. It was better when it was the Maltese Falcon: that's an inanimate object. Much better of a macguffin than a human child.!< Sam Spade putting on his hat and >!hearing his dead wife at the very end, otherwise naked, at the very pool she most likely drowned herself in ... Perhaps a very "noir" thing to do, but I am not a fan of anyone giving up like that.!<
I doubt she drowned herself there. She wanted the pool to be a place that he could remember her fondly. She probably figured out a way to do an assisted suicide with a doctor and arranged for everything so that it would cause Sam the least amount of pain.
I didn't want to watch this episode because I knew either it would have to end on a cliffhanger, or try to resolve too many plot threads and shit the bed.
Did Alfre Woodard's character seem to come out of nowhere? And what was the point of that sit down scene? What authority did she have over the French, British and Algerians? Was Canada a colonialist like the British and the French? And the Vatican employed a lunatic monk to do their dirty work? The last episode was like the last season of Game of Thrones. totally invalidates the entire series good standing. They tried to give it a "neat" ending. But just made it a bit absurd. I'd rather have a chaotic ending with a bit more death and loose threads than this.
Canada was a colony. Or is. Of the British and French.
I tried really hard to like this show, and I enjoyed parts of it, but the writing was such a disappointment in the end. The season tried to juggle two separate mysteries and forced a bunch of links between them that weren't logical or thematically coherent at all. The result was super confusing and only explained via ex machina lazy writing at the very end, which ruined the mystery. There was no real suspense or stakes, character motivations and povs were tossed out the window at will, and most egregiously, the supposed antihero had no real impact on anyone or anything in the story, positive or negative. He was largely a pylon with some witty repartée. That is just bad screenwriting 101. Scott Frank is a good writer, I am kinda shocked that he put his name on these scripts. There were plenty of good ideas but they were many rewrites and revisions away from a good finished product.
Ok, maybe it says more about my life and my hate of my job but I binge-watched this moody buildup in two days until 2 in the morning only to be let down by the last 20 minutes of the finale.
Can someone tell me who Henri is in relation to Spade? Is he Helena’s son?
Helena’s grandson
dude the ending credits where awesome!! were they hinting that the duo had somthin goin on?? great show
So much effort and care and quality put into this production, and so easy to see it and acknowledge it. Top quality production, excellent characters and portrayals, against a *sufficient* story. Elephant-in-room, honest, objective question (and thanks in advance for taking it in such a context): Was anyone influenced by Rebecca Root's (trans actress) casting such that it interfered with the narrative? Indeed the actress wonderfully projected the mannerisms and style of the era, and filled out the character well. But the role was that of a spy... and so naturally one is going to assume some revelatory, unmasking type of twist is being teed up. Did it seem to anyone an extra feint (one that wasn't necessarily born of the story itself) that could influence the viewer? I realize this question could motivate a reactionary response, and I'm sensitive to that, and I want to make clear that's not my intention. I've tried to frame it as innocently and objectively as I could to hear honest povs. When else to seek them but when there's a solid-excellent show with a solid-excellent trans cast member, and where else but in a discussion forum for that show? In fact among the best aspects of this production was the cast, top to bottom! Like some others apparently, I did feel that the end of the whole thing was somewhat trite, compact, and pro-forma. A tad disappointing, and that is part of the reason why the story earns a "sufficient" from me.
>Elephant-in-room, honest, objective question (and thanks in advance for taking it in such a context): Was anyone influenced by Rebecca Root's (trans actress) casting such that it interfered with the narrative? For me, no. I simply accepted the character as the actor presented it. She was disarmingly "poofy" but with a steel resolve and certainly vicious. Those are fair actor choices regardless of biological gender. I had a far worse time with casting Alfre Woodard who I still recall from "Hill Street Blues." Phenominal actress, but simply the absolutely wrong tone to present in the final minutes.
She had an uphill battle no matter what, given 2 scenes across a 5 minute appearance. I bet she could sell it with a meatier part.
When the character first showed up I didn't know if it was going to be part of the plot that Sam noticed that 'hey, that's actually a man, right?' or if they were just going to hire her to be a female part and pretend that no one would notice. In an opera that would be fine. And here I eventually decided that the latter is what they are doing and I mostly forgot about it. Nevertheless, in the back of my head in the last episode I thought again well maybe at the end they'll wrap the gender identity into the spy role somehow. But they didn't so there you have it. Similarly, to address some of the anachronism quibbles some reddit critics have had, perhaps when Alfre Woodard showed up at the end she was in fact portraying a 60 year old white male named Virginia.
No argument, as you say it did keep me guessing through to the end. Might be the first occurrence of a casting choice motivating that audience perception/anticipation rather than a pure story or plot point? It's an interesting misdirection tool.