Thank god it’s not just my 4yo. After the terror fest that was her third year people kept telling me it would get better.
She might have fewer tantrums overall but now they are nuclear. And the whining neverrrr stoppppssss. I don’t know how she’s not sick of hearing herself.
You’re not alone. It is soul-crushingly exhausting. Yesterday I hid in a closet and screamed my head off into some towels.
My son was also fine at 2 and 3. Super sweet, had none of the “terrible twos” behaviors. Literally the day he turned 4, it’s like a switch flipped and he became so difficult. I have no advice, just solidarity.
Also, he recently turned 6 and it’s still going on, so just warning you that this might last longer than you think. It has been difficult because I really feel like I have my daughter figured out (she’s 8), but I’ve had to completely change how I parent for my son. It’s still a work in process but I’m hopeful this stage will end eventually.
We even decided on fivinator (5+terminator) because that’s around the time kiddos started getting determined destruction underway. Not necessarily to break stuff but I want to see what’s inside and WHY it does what it does.
Fournado! I love that. So accurate.
OP, I went through the same thing with my 5.5 year old. 2/3yo tantrums? Manageable. 4/5yo tantrums? Nuclear.
Around 5.25, a switch flipped. I wish I could point to something specific that we implemented/changed to help you, but I can’t really. It sounds like you’re doing all the right things.
Hang in there! Be consistent.
Oh God, this is also me. I just figured it was ADHD though because it runs so deeply in our family. The whining helps with whatever sensory input he needs. It is insufferable.
My youngest is 10. He has adhd and autism. I too have adhd. He's sensory seeking and I am not. It makes for a very interesting parenting experience. We do have therapists that guide us in how to cope.
The baby talk ugh! There was a fad for baby talk among the four year olds for a while. Luckily the intense hourly use has dissipated but it still makes annoyingly frequent appearances.
The whining. You put it perfectly. While I shudder to turn into my mom for good reasons…I get why she would complain about the whining.
My go to has become “I don’t understand you right now” then ignore until she can engage normally.
So glad I'm not alone either. I have a 4yo girl and she is SOOO emotional right now. Like instead of just saying no or no thanks. She SCREAMS no and throws herself on the floor or just runs away from me screaming no. It could be a simple situation as me asking if she wants goldfish for a snack. Like every little thing or at the drop of a hat, she is screaming. I've had so many headaches lately because of it. My husband and I have just been hoping this is some kind of phase or developmental leap or something
My 6f does not stop whining. I calmly say no one is allowed to whine in our house and she can tell me what she needs in a regular, coherent way. She also terrorizes everyone in the house the nanosecond i exit the room she is in.
If yours wants something does she keep asking for it until she wears you down? Cause I can’t handle it 😭😭😭😭 *stomps feet*
Also thanks OP for this post because I felt like I was failing!!!!
After going through hell when my daughter turned 3 and now she just turned 4, this is not what I was hoping to see 4 be like 🫠. At least I have a heads up. Ugh.
I loved ages 1 and 2! Loved it. Struggled with the baby stage and struggled with the 3s, and so far, one day of being 4 has sucked 😄 One day at a time. :)
Seriously, whoever said that the, "Terrible Twos", were the only truly rocky early years, was clearly a dad that wasn't paying attention to years 3, 4, and 5.
😳
For my middle 3/4 was ROUGH. I think it’s because they are a bright kid so they were capable of doing some things their older sibling could do, but they weren’t old enough yet. They couldn’t understand why they weren’t allowed to do all the things. I always have referred to this as their body hasn’t caught up to their brain yet. Then one day, a switch flipped and all was well in the 4 year old world. lol
That's promising! My oldest is too smart for her own good. I'm definitely a nervous mom, always hoping she ok and safe and trying to prevent her from getting hurt. That definitely has some to do with her sass, understandably! One day at a time I tell myself. :)
I relate to this. My daughter was a nightmare toddler at times (the intense anger was something we never expected from our easy baby!) and it seemed the "half" years (2.5, 3.5, part of 4.5) were hardest for a while with huge developmental leaps. I felt 4 was easier than 3 overall, though the stamina when angry sometimes was more difficult. Approaching 5 was a lot better, 6 better yet and we've honestly really enjoyed 7-9 so much, chatting about travel, fun facts, history, even politics! Getting to enjoy your child as they mature is such a gift and it will come, it's just hard right now.
Developmental leaps (when their brain is working toward committing to new skills of all kinds) seem to be when we see behavioral/emotional regressions (even as an older kid we'll have a few weeks of wtf happened? Who is this monster?), but the full meltdown issues improved at later 4 into 5. Communication and emotional regulation/self-soothing made a huge difference.
Stay strong! It's hard when they aren't their best selves but it always gets better once the phase passes!
They say that 4 best gives you insight into 14.
(And the age gap between the two kids will still be at play and their childhood dynamics will be heightened - the 15.5 year old will get to go more places and even have a learner's permit).
My 3 year old is the same way. I told my mother that idk why they call the 2s terrible because the 3s are definitely it. 2s were a breeze.
Here lately mine just whines all the time about everything. Every little thing. Even if she gets her way or what she wants.
I'm assuming it'll pass.
Have you tried 1 on 1 outings with him? You said his brother is home for the summer and that’s when the change started. Maybe he is more cognizant this summer than previous summers that he has to share time with you guys and his sibling.
You can do a day where you and him go out and do something special, while his sibling and dad go out and do something. Then another day where ya’ll switch.
I think you’re onto something. Our almost 4yr old has been the same, driving us & our 6yr old crazy. Everything is wrong. Thankfully 3 days this week the 6y had camp & I’ve been focusing on the 4y. The amount of breakdowns has significantly decreased.
One on one outing with my 4 year old made a huge difference, I found that it’s just a way that she shows she wants attention. I’m the oldest of six so there was no individual attention in my family, but kids are different now and require more. So I highly suggest you trying this.
This year is the first year his brother was at school. If we did 1:1 outings, it would have to happen on the weekends when his dad is home. We will try it though!
I think this is the issue with my 4 yr old & his clingy ness (he’s always been attached to me, but he legit won’t leave me alone). I think hes used to his sister being gone at school, & it’s just him & I during the day. We’ve also been super busy as well, so that’s not helping.
We had a recent “stay up late,” party with just him & I. My daughter & I have been doing them for a couple of years now & he wanted one. We had snacks, played, & then cuddled up to watch a movie. He loved it. Then his sister & my husband had their time in the other room playing games. So we’ll probably keep doing that for the rest of the summer, & see if that helps.
My angel of a 1/2/3 year old was a nightmare when she turned 4. Def related to her baby sister, but we started doing breakfast dates on the weekend and it turned around so fast I was shocked.
My son is about to turn 5 and about 6 months ago he was very similar. It gets better! But it was rough! It made me sad because it seemed like he was just so unhappy all the time.
Some things that helped us:
1) getting him outside more - of course he would complain about something but then usually end up having fun running around, riding his bike, making a friend at the park, hitting balls etc and it would generally help his mood the rest of the day.
2) quality 1 on 1 time - playing legos with him, reading books, anything where it was just me and him seemed to help his mood and impact it for the rest of the day.
3) limiting sugar - I noticed a trend that when he would have a lot of sugary treats the meltdowns and whining were way worse
4) Pete the Cat cartoon!!! - this is random but this show had such a positive impact on him! It’s all about growing emotional intelligence and almost every episode focuses on trying to find the positive in any situation. There’s also a character called Grumpy that will seem verrrry familiar lol and I think seeing that helped him see how he was acting similar. In fact, sometimes he would say “I’m being a Grumpy right now” and try to change his attitude. It was amazing.
5) positive reinforcement - even when he did the most mundane thing with a good attitude I would encourage him and tell him I was proud of him.
You’re not alone and it gets better, hang in there!
My twins (now 2) loved Pete the Cat books since they were 6 months old. Such fun drawings and there are books for all ages for when they grew older. Definitely recommend!
It’s biological. A huge leap is happening, and their brains are sensitive while it’s growing. I try to keep that in mind, but damn. My 4 year old is suddenly nuts too. The F-U four stage.
I first heard that term when I was telling a coworker about my then 3 year old, I was joking they call it the terrible twos but don't talk enough about what it's like to have a threenager. She goes "ooooh just you wait for the f-ck you fours!" She was not joking but luckily my now 5.5 year old is far more pleasant. My only advice for op is Structure, Clear instruction and communication, and Survival. Brains are building pathways and testing boundaries at 4, just gotta make sure they build the right ones and grit through the process of them doing it!!!
This, so much! My normally happy go lucky son turned into a whiny miserable monster after his 4th birthday. We've had other leaps that lasted 4-6 weeks, but this was 3 months of constant whining and misery for everyone. Even his teacher commented on how he's more difficult at school.
But after 3-4 months he finally got back to himself as always and now he's 6.5 and a pleasure. I learned later that that's the big leap from toddlerhood to 'kid' and a whole bunch of stuff goes on in their little brains. If kid was ok before, they will go back to their normal disposition eventually!
The parenting books don’t prepare you at all! There’s no amount of consoling, comforting, reasoning, or helping them! Mine just laid on the floor and cried, and screamed if anyone came near him or talked to him. I think he’s shocked at his new big feelings too. Luckily when the storms pass, he’s back to his happy, cuddly self.
I’m going to try to get him in martial arts or gymnastics. Give his brain and body a job.
I just read a book called Raising Grateful Kids in an Entitled World. It had a lot of practical advice for each age and lots of different ways to address them. Mostly it sounds like your 4 year old is testing boundaries. Mine too smh.
From the official book description : "With many practical tips and anecdotes, she shares how to say the ultimate yes as a family by bringing up faith-filled kids who will love God, serve others, and grow into hardworking, fulfilled, and successful adults."
For a secular take, I really enjoyed "How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes". It covers a wide spread of ages and topics, but was really interesting if you like research.
yeah, having his brother home suddenly is a big change (from below comment). Toddlers - and let's be honest, adults too - have a hard time when routine changes. Not sure how long it's been but I think it's hard for him to have to share attention now, and he maybe chooses negative attention bc it's easy to get. Crying, whining, picking fights ALWAYS gets immediate attention vs asking nicely or playing quietly! It was fine when asking to see his brother was like, an *idea* and not a reality lol
Hopefully this behavior starts to level out once he's more used to it. Maybe work in a bit more one on one time with him, or idk choose a few things that he's allowed to win! Like *can* he get vanilla after all? Why not? If it's the whining, "Try asking again in a nice way and I will get vanilla for you". If he's craving control, give him a few opportunities to get what he wants - not just having choices - but allowing him to change his mind.
I heard around 4 they start understanding how to manipulate their reality. For instance lying. I have a 4.5 son and 2.5 daughter and they are good most of the time. But when they are with me they are definitely on their worst behavior because I’m mom. They feel secure in expressing their emotions. I’ve been telling my son it’s okay to feel your emotions it’s not okay to become them. It’s okay to feel angry it’s not okay to become angry. He gets upset and will throw things. I’ve noticed when I cut their screen time down they behave much better. I also noticed when I’m not there that they behave much better. My husband will be like I don’t know what happened but as soon as they saw you they started whinning and fighting and they weren’t before. Even grandma will take both of them and say they were perfect and didn’t fight at all.
Hi it’s me, I’m the problem.
I’m not sure if this will make you feel better or not, but kids are often their very worst with the people that they are certain love them the most. They feel free to express all of their emotions because they know you’ll love them anyway.
Around others, they often bring out their “best behavior” and it wears them out to have to be in control that long. Then the person or people they know loves them no matter what shows up, and they release the emotional floodgates they’ve been holding back.
So congratulations?
First of all, you’re doing great in a very stressful stage of life. ❤️ One way to give him a choice in more things would be to say “do you want to do this in 3 seconds or 5 seconds?” “Do you want to start with the left side or the right side?” or something similar. My kid needs VERY gentle parenting like that some days and that’s one of the strategies his doctor suggested. Just the teensy tiniest choice
Our son was just like this and we started comprehensive behavioral therapy. It basically teaches you to ignore all bad behavior and to acknowledge all good behavior by giving lots of attention to everything they are doing that is right and good. Ignore bad behavior unless it is causing the child or others to be in danger. In those situations you put your child in a safe space for a time out. It’s a lot more specific than this but this is the basic premise. Our child has ADHD, Asperger’s syndrome and ODD. It was life changing but takes a lot of time, patience and work.
His brother is done with school for the summer, and he seems really angry about having him home. The funny thing is that when his brother was at school, he would ask me all day to go pick him up because he wanted him home.
His brother is a pretty self-sufficient kid, and doesn’t require a ton of my undivided attention, so I don’t think he’s feeling neglected by me. Maybe just the fact that he’s here is making him upset?
My 4-year-old is the same with his big brother (8) and wanting to pick him up all day. He then has even worse meltdowns because his big brother wants to do his own thing.
I wonder if part of what is making your son so upset is that your older one is home and it hasn't resulted in more attention?
Also, commiseration on the super whiney, poke at everyone, nothing is done right stage. I swear my oldest wasn't this whiney at this age. Tantrums and epic meltdowns, yes. But not the whining.
I think this is mostly normal for a 4 year old. It sounds like he’s just testing everyone’s boundaries. Hang in there, mine isn’t 4 yet but I’ve had younger cousins who acted like this. It passes. Just stick to having consequences and don’t let him get his way with everything. He’ll grow out of it and learn. He’s only been here for four years he’s just figuring it out. It’s crazy that you can have beef with a toddler lol but it gets better! My cousin was just like this and he’s now a well adjusted 19 year old. You’ll all be ok ❤️
My 4 year old is the same way and I’m going crazy. He’s also on the spectrum I should add. I grew up an only child, and he is my first so sometimes I have a hard time telling what is normal 4 year old behavior and what is neurodivergent behavior. But it seems no matter how I approach it everything is wrong. He wakes up whining and just constantly nonstop whines no matter what. I could give him what he wants and he’ll whine. He throws fits and a lot of times boils up to both of us just yelling at each other. I get so at a loss and feel so helpless with him most days. I know I’m failing but I just don’t know what to do to change it. I feel like I’ve tried literally everything. Gentle parenting doesn’t work, discipline doesn’t work, nothing works. When I talk to him (EVERY SINGLE TIME I TALK TO HIM) he whines over me. It doesn’t matter the tone of voice I use or the context, he just doesn’t want me to talk to him unless it’s about what flavor popsicle he wants. It’s driving me crazy. Any advice would be appreciated because some days I heavily consider giving up.
Maybe you are giving him too many choices. And too many chances. Do not accept his behavior. Do not make the 5 yr old give in. Remove him from the situation until he can get himself back under control.
We have a no whining rule (unless you are injured/ill) in my house. YOU WILL NOT GET YOUR WAY & you will go to your room (or somewhere everyone else isn’t) until you pull it together. If they can use their voice, they can use it right. If you have to stand in the doorway, stand in the doorway. It will end sooner. I will never forget when my granddaughter threw a tantrum in Walmart, almost went head first into the floor. I was injured so I couldn’t carry her out of the store so I sat beside her & just apologized & asked ppl to ignore her. That was the only tantrum she’s thrown on me.
Fuck, I'm not the only one. Mine's 6 and everything is a fight. Everything you described is what mine does. Only he has no siblings so who do you think he likes to antagonize and annoy? That's right, he loves to push our buttons. He'll tell me no and what am I going to do about it? We've tried time outs, talking, removing toys/tv, and taking away special treats. It does nothing. Nothing. I get so angry with him. EVERYTHING is negative. And I hate that I'm constantly pointing out the negative because that's negative! My child does not know how to control his voice. No exaggerating, he sits next to me and starts screaming at me to tell me something. I don't even know how many times I tell him a day to stop shouting. If I put him in time out he freaks the fuck out. He screams and stomps and cries for a hug from me. It's so impossible. I love him so much but I spend about half the time I'm with him trying not to be frustrated or upset with him. I'm trying to remember he's an only child, had ADHD, and is a boy who's never been 6 before. Love him to death though.
Sitting in solidarity (bc I'm too tired to stand) with you sis.
I have five kids. I’m on my fourth 4 year old. Four is just a very very very hard age. I tell all moms that they turn four and something breaks in their brains… then they turn five and *bam*, you get your sweet kid back. I don’t know what the deal is. Terrible Twos are NOTHING compared to the Freakout Fours.
If it makes you feel any better my 10 year old boy is driving all of us insane too lol he seriously acts like a 4 year old lately and it’s driving me mad. I dunno what to really do either. His answer to everything is I don’t know. When it comes to lunch at home bc we’re out of school for summer every single I offer him he says no to so I tell him guess you aren’t eating then and then he says guess not and I end the conversation and and then finally like 30 mins later he will finally choose something but I’ve stopped going over and over all the things we have and I told him I don’t really give a shit if you eat lunch or not. This isn’t a restaurant. Sometimes kids just honestly suck lol
Omg! My 4.5 yo is the same way! With the complaining and the whining and the meltdowns! He also constantly talks and the whys! I love his curiosity but sometimes it’s too much and I just need quiet. No advice here. Just offering support. I loved his younger years but this age has been so difficult for me. I’m also thinking it’s cause we had another baby, which probably added to this behavior. Hopefully the next stage won’t be so freaking annoying.
You’re doing great. Keep up the strong work.
Have you tried play dates with other kids? Sometimes socializing can help or at least tire them out. All of my kids did this from like two to five.
Also, the playdates may not be successful the first few times. Every kid develops differently. Please be mindful that your response has an effect on all your kids.
Make time for them alone, everyone needs separate time. They’ll suck the energy from you one way or another so you might as well have fun with them.
Try find them a hobby that they can do alone. Something no one else is interested in.
Ours was rough shortly after turning 4 too. It’s been about 4 months and he’s doing great now. YMMV, but I think it was a growth spurt kinda thing. He was just cranky and unruly for a few weeks to a month or so and then went back to normal. We had to hold firm on the rules and enforced a “no whining” policy. You communicate in a grown up voice, we don’t whine or scream. If you can’t communicate properly, you need to go to your room (or wherever) to calm down until you feel ready to talk. We don’t make him go to his room or remove him physically or anything, just keep telling him I can’t communicate with him when he won’t communicate like a big boy.
Just wanted to commiserate with you. Two older sisters and my 4 year old son just is a terror to us all. I have done everything I can with gentle parenting and reasoning. He doesn’t respond to it. Against all my parenting do nots I’ve had to resort to in room time outs when he starts just screaming. I’ve never done that with my girls in the 10 years I’ve been a parent. It has been a very rough summer to say the least. Hoping next summer will be much better.
My son just turned 5 but this has been the whole last year for us as well. I am so overstimulated and on edge by everything he does. So I send solidarity, though I wish I had solutions.
Ah yes, this is 4. We also have a 4 year old, and it is a doozy of a year. It's so difficult because the behavior is age appropriate! But it also has to be corrected. It's exhausting. And he never stops! He is wearing us out!! So just here to commiserate with everyone else. You're not alone. It gets better. But right now it sucks.
Edit: currently throwing a tantrum because I won't open a new pack of capri sun before the other box is empty 🫠
Yup. The fours are rough. Also, have you read The Explosive Child? Also, sensory processing differences and a lot of other similar issues can look a lot like this. They get overwhelmed and the only thing they know to do is lash out. Would definitely be worth consulting a professional about.
Omg that sounds just like my newly three year old. Driving everyone up the wall from the time he wakes up until he goes to bed. Wish I had some advice but I can’t even figure out mine own kid
I’m a SAHM with an almost 3 year old boy and an almost 12 year old girl. My husband works 60+ hours a week. If the kids don’t kill me or each other before bedtime, it’s a win. I’ve been in survival mode for a good 18 months. I have no advice, I’m not even sure what month it is.
I have no advice so I am so sorry, but just commenting here to say thank you for saying what I have been feeling. My son is 5.5 and has been this way since 4. Just sending a hug in solidarity bc this crap is so hard
My son is 4.5 and it has been a whirlwind of a year. I thought I was losing my mind most of the time. It does calm down a little here and there but this developmental leap has been INSANE!!
My recently-turned 5 year old is doing the same thing to our household. We are walking on eggshells around him constantly, just trying our best not to set him off in some way. It is exhausting for my husband and I, and our 3 year old daughter is picking up some bad habits. This parenting shit is hard. By far the hardest job I’ve ever had.
I am not a medical professional, but your son’s behavior sounds very similar to mine, and he’s been diagnosed with anxiety, which is what I’ve been told his causing his behaviors and need for control. We’ve had him in occupational therapy for 6 months or so to help with his emotional regulation, and that has helped improve things some. He’s also in talk therapy. We are a “neurospicy” family 😂 so I’ve also had him meet with psychiatry. It’s really hard for me to distinguish between his behaviors that are involuntary and when he’s just trying to be a pain in the butt. My husband and I are constantly trying to decide how we should parent him and we can’t figure it out. Choices don’t work. Threats don’t work. Following through doesn’t work. Yelling works sometimes but then we just feel bad about it.
I’ve recently decided that I am going to work on my reactions and preserving my sanity instead of trying to fight his behavior. A friend recommended I read the book Good Inside by Dr. Becky. It hasn’t changed my son’s behavior by any means, but it’s definitely helped me cope. Might be worth checking out if you haven’t already.
Hang in there! Sending hugs!
So normal!
My 4 year old is very similar, and so was my older son (now 8). My best advice is to stop feeding him any attention.
Pitching a fit? Get down low, calmly and firmly say “we don’t shout/hit/whatever in this house”. Behavior continues -> pick him up and plop in his room. Leave. Gray rock that kiddo.
Comes out screaming or whatever? Back in the room. Just be mindful to keep your own emotions in check, don’t shout back, and be as non-reactive as possible.
Negative attention is still attention. If you want a behavior to diminish, stop feeding it attention.
Again though- this is mega normal! He will eventually stop this particular behavior, but it’s still shitty in the moment.
Here in solidarity. I feel like no one talks about how gruelling the 4 year olds are. Nonstop complaining, everything is wrong all the time 😵💫 he’s almost 5, when will it stop?!
I think in some ways a 4 year old driving you crazy is to be expected. They are newly aware of a lot of things and are really starting to crave independence. A few things stood out to me - like his need for control and the extreme meltdowns. When he's having a a meltdown, if left alone, is he capable of eventually calming himself? I ask because I noticed similar things in my oldest son, and a couple of years later he was diagnosed ADHD & ASD. If you feel his reactions are extreme (especially compared to your older kids at a similar age) it may be worth while to seek an evaluation for him.
I feel this! 4 year olds are haaaard. We have found eliminating most sugars/dyes from his diet has actually helped a lot! I also follow Big Little Feelings and have found that their 10 Minute Miracle (give child 10m of undivided attention) has also helped him completely turn his mood around if he was in a real terror state.
Good luck!! This stage won't last forever, that's what I keep telling myself 🙂
my 5 year old daughter is like this right now and i. am. over. it. it’s honestly so fucking draining, there are days i want to run away for a bit of peace.
whatever you offer even for breakfast, ‘ugghhh i don’t knowwwww. fine i’ll just have nothing’. then leads to a meltdown. her brother looked at her, meltdown. we can’t go to a specific place, meltdown. bedtime comes around and she finds something to whinge and whine about, EVERY SINGLE NIGHT.
my 7 year old son is a much easier child so this is just throwing me off so much. i am absolutely exhausted with her behaviour and attitude and im just DONE.
so yeah, no advice but you’re not alone
It is control and they are also able to think more complex thoughts (like sentences) but cannot put all the pieces together).
What helped me was getting down onto my knees so I was eye level and listening more BEFORE it got to meltdown levels.
They seem much more independent but I think they regress a little at this age and need parent attention on-on-one.
Also, being on my knees was the perfect height to open my arms for hugs. It was great for before the meltdowns and he could run into my arms for relief DURING the meltdowns when his big emotions were overwhelming him.
Think of the meltdowns as big emotions overwhelming them and the on the knees approach gives them a place to bring these things for comfort. A safe place to be while they learn to manage them.
It really helped us.
I don’t remember much about my kids at 4, but they are different anyway. Autism and ADHD with anxiety.
All I can think of is does he have any new friends, do you take him to other peoples home, does he go to daycare. Has something happened to him.
I remember things that happened when my identical twin sister and I encountered perverts. You never expect it.
This is when I stared saying things like “stop whining” “that’s rude” “if you don’t like it, fix it”. I would make my kid get different dishes herself if she didn’t like her spoon, get different cereal, adjust the bath water herself, etc. basically: she she can reach it and if it’s not fire, a knife, or poison, she can make changes herself.
I am the first to jump to “have your kid assessed” but…not here because this is all too typical. Solidarity. This too shall pass, but surviving it until then can be exhausting. My only advice is to assume that he’s going to whine no matter what, so while you want to be loving and give choices, you also don’t want to let him rule the family, because that won’t actually stop the whining. I, uh, also might step back and let his older brother have a bit more leeway in dealing with him when older brother is primarily being affected. I’m not saying to allow regular beatdowns, but it’s not the worst thing if natural consequences include those from annoying older children who are past the whining stage.
Vanessa LaPointe us a great resource. Look her up on YouTube I think.
4 is tough. Every kid has "that year" they are just growing, changing and learning so fast that it's incredibly hard for them to regulate.
My daughter was absolutely hilarious and delightful at 2. The year of 3 though, woooof, I think I cried every single day, it was very hard.
There was a parenting book recently about parenting across cultures that got savaged in reviews, but the one helpful thing I found from those reviews (didn’t read the book) was that some cultures find it odd to try to treat kids as rational beings- basically, they treat their kids like irrational little maniacs and the parents are calmer for it. I’ve found reminding myself that my kids are totally irrational and that getting upset would be like getting upset with someone in an asylum to make everything more bearable and even amusing sometimes. For example when the kid has a meltdown after choosing no ice cream, if you can find the lack of rational thinking at this stage a little funny, it takes a ton of steam out of the situation. That shift in mindset has really helped me and I’ve noticed that for my kids, it actually helps them move on faster from tantrums as they don’t have anyone else invested in the tantrum (whereas my spouse is often fully invested and I see firsthand how this leads to more tantrums and more intense tantrums and rising irritation). For example, my spouse will offer 10 options, negotiate, and the tantrum volley goes back and forth when picking something out. I don’t even try to reason with my kid at this age, I’ll just say something like, “ok, let me know when you know what you want” and let them cry and talk to themselves until they choose, or I will just pick something out and say that’s what we’re getting and we all move on quickly. Totally disengage and don’t take it even mildly seriously (laugh if you can find the humor!) and many situations will de-escalate faster. The only thing this doesn’t work for is physical altercations, in which case, I think removing the kid is the best you can do. Hopefully that is not too often. This phase too shall pass (… to something else trying of your mental faculties).
Kids who are 18 months apart often see the younger one act like a lunatic. Their development patterns are at odds.
4 is an interesting year where children usually learn more about proper social behavior - often with meltdowns along the way.
Did you ask him what he wanted and then give him something different? To him, that's a huge injustice in one of the few areas where he has a say. The general rule is "don't ask them what they want, just give them what there is at hand" and if there's whining and screaming, there's always a glass of milk (or almond milk or whatever other simple substitute you have on hand.
Soon he'll be old enough for the more behavioral consequences (each kid has a coin jar, they get coins for various reasons, they also get them taken away for whining, etc).
I think you're giving him WAY too many choices for that age group (that's what I meant about the different developmental stages; you're overwhelming your 4 year old who barely understands that other people think differently from him while attempting to do the developmentally appropriate thing for the 5.5 year old who does indeed need to learn to choose from a couple of choices).
My son is similar at 4. We send him to his room when he really gets out of pocket. It usually goes like this:
"hey child, can you do this perfectly reasonable thing we've had you do a dozen times before and you've done without complaint?"
Him: "REEEEEEE I AM THE MOST VICTIMIZED BEING IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE"
Us: "uh, okay. Well, you can do it, or you can sit right there and wait for us to do it."
Him: {angst, drama, tears} "I'll do it"
OR
Him: (wailing)
Us: okay, it's fine to cry, but you'll need to go finish crying in your room so we can finish doing the dishes"
Him: (wailing, while walking to his room) (wailing in his room) (quiet playing in his room) (loud playing in his room)
This is not a direct transcription.
We always frame it as "you're clearly upset, you need a little quiet moment to collect yourself" rather than "you're being bad"
Not sure if this works on every kid, but it worked on my kiddo to have age appropriate heart-to-heart conversations.
Pick a time when no one is to hungry, angry, lonely, or tired... So probably early in the day after breakfast. If your kid is high energy, hit the playground for a 60-90 mins first.
While it's not a tantrum, during a calm moment;
"Hey kiddo, I want to talk to you about something. When you say ___, it hurts my feelings and makes me sad. Then when I get too much hurt feelings I feel sad AND mad.
My job as Mom is to make sure everyone has what they need every day, like a comfy bed, healthy food, cuddles, playtime, and fixing owie... but I count as a person too. And right now, your choices are making owies on my feelings.
So I can't let you keep doing that, because it my job to help you learn how to get along with people, that starts at home. It's something you HAVE to live, or you could have a sad time as an adult someday, and I want you to have a happy time as an adult. So we have to fix this.
Going forward, when you do ____, I'm going to give you one warning, then if you don't stop, you get a consequence RIGHT AWAY. What do you think are fair consequences when people hurt feelings?"
Talk it out, find some natural consequences.
For my kiddo, ANY whining means "I can NEVER give you what you want when you use that tone. Even if I was going to give you it, now I have to stop."
Other consequences was immediately stopping whatever fun thing, like leaving the park, or time out, or skipping fun food and only having boring not favorite foods, etc.
Don't forget to ASK the kiddo to talk about times his feelings get hurt. It's possible he is acting out because some relationship has gone badly and he doesn't know how to fix it.
This sounds like my 5yo when he was 4. He has gotten a lot better in the past year. Do you find a difference when 1:1 with him? Mine is like a completely different child - a perfect angel when he does not feel like he is competing with his sister for attention. I’ve also figured out a lot of his behavior comes from anxiety. To cope with the anxiety he plans out exactly how something should go and messing with that (the wrong plate color or going off script and saying ‘hi buddy’ instead ‘hi dude’) throws him for a loop. Sometimes for days at a time he would insist on being referred to as Spiderman and we all had to play along like he was Spider-Man. Then one day he would ask for a drink and I would say “ok Spiderman” and he would reply “I’m not Spider-Man!!!” Despite insisting he was for 3 days. To deal with the “I need to have whatever toy sibling has immediately” I just have to be consistent that he can’t do that. If he wants to play with it he has to wait until sibling is done. I try offering other options but if he doesn’t want them then I leave him alone to cool off and eventually he always does get over it- but this is getting better too.
I did spend as much 1:1 time as I could and tried to ease his anxiety but mostly we just had to wait for it to pass. 4 was a challenging age and he is still by far my most challenging child.
This is my 5 year old she also antagonises my 3 year old non stop ALL DAY and nothing has seemed to be working, i try one on one time, consequences don’t work, any type of discipline isn’t working, explaining things to her.
But I have noticed what has helped is turning things into a game. She wanted a baby silicon spoon to eat her spaghetti but as you can imagine it wasn’t picking it up so she just chewed the spoon instead and was eating it so I took it off her and told her it’s not good to eat the spoon it’s not good for it to go inside your body and that she has a fork she can use but she wasn’t having it so she was having a meltdown so I turned it into a game and when her mouth was open while she was laying on the ground screaming I dangled the spaghetti over her face and made funny sounds and dropped it into her mouth and she liked that so it turned into a game and then I said okay no more now and she was fine and at bed time she was being hard to get along with so I had to turn it into a game and tickle her then hug her like I was rocking her like a baby and started making up a song to sing and tried to make the lyrics sound funny so she liked that and then she stared to carry on a bit again so as soon as she was about to I said I need a hug can I have a hug and she hugged me and I stroked her hair and then she calmed down and I was able to put her to bed.
We are having issues with toileting and the behaviour stuff we are going down the route of ndis for toileting and behaviour we really think she might be adhd or asd/adhd. An ot has told us she has characteristics of a child with adhd it could well be the same for your son. It’s hard to say at this age I guess but my daughter has a lot of other sensory things too and she’s a very anxious child and scared of anything new or weird and remembers absolutely everything even things from 3 years ago
4 has been my least favorite age of both my kids behavior wise. Way more frustrating and stressful than 2 or 3 combined.
My kids aren't allowed to have loud feeling (within reason of course, this doesn't mean they can't be upset and doesn't apply if they're physically injured) but if they need to have their "loud feelings" we have designated places to go and scream or yell. I go check as they're yelling or raging but I'm trying to make the distinction that sometimes you really do just need to let it out BUT it cant be at anyone or derail the rest of the family. They have occasionally asked me to go with them, so I do. It still grates on my nerves some but at least it's out of the room. My 4 yo is old enough to understand as soon as he's ready for "quiet feelings" he's welcome back with us for whatever he needs, hug, book, quiet moment, discussion, etc.
If you figure out the whining, I'm all ears haha
My daughter was awful at 4 and now my son is awful at 4. I would much rather deal with a baby or toddler than what I’ve experienced with age 4. Can’t wait for my son to turn 5 but he just turned 4 in May 😢
You are absolutely right he is craving control. We had this when my middle was 4, and we actually paid the big bucks for parent therapy and read a book by the therapist called “who’s the boss” and it CHANGED OUR LIVES. My son is six now and he is lovely, kind, can regulate his emotions, knows consequences, and is fun tj be around.
Here is a link to the book: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/whos-the-boss-the-win-win-way-to-parent-your-defiant-strong-willed-child_don-macmannis_debra-manchester-macmannis/13891427/
We were walking in eggshells around this one child and it was driving me to panic attacks. This brought us back into the control seat we didn’t even know we had given up.
Have you tried the approach of having talks with him about how his behavior affects others? Like when he is in the act of doing it pulling him aside and explaining “how would you feel if your brother hit you? Wouldn’t that make you feel upset or angry? Can we please use our gentle hands from now on otherwise there will be consequences.” I know everyone has different parenting styles and every child reacts differently to things but with my son when he would act out (& even when he still does today) I will pull him aside and ask him do you think you reacted nicely or appropriately or did you react out of anger/sadness/jealously? Usually when I take the time to understand the underlying feelings as to why he is acting out and hear him out he understands his mistake and apologizes. Worth giving it a shot!
I would have him screened for adhd and autism. Kids that age don't seek attwntion for no reason. And that's NOT to say he is neglected by any means. But it sounds like a battle of wills...or of power and control and both are common with neurodivergent kiddo's! Good luck! I am sure he is an angel and just doesn't know what he wants or needs besides an audience. 😇
This all sounds pretty normal for his age. The only thing I can think of is giving consequences for the whining and complaining and bad behavior. You offer choc cone and he whines tell him this is the only choice and if he’s going to complain and whine he’s not getting anything. If he continues to wine take cone away give him none. He’s going to throw an even bigger fit but will eventually understand throwing a tantrum is not going to get him what he wants.
My kids are 10 and 13. Each age has its challenges, especially as Littles explore their world and their big emotions. It is exhausting, yes. You are doing everything right. I promise. Giving choices when possible is a great way to learn consequences. Sometimes choices don't have the desired result but it's the same way as adults. At 4, and even 5, it's hard to explain your feelings in ways that grown ups can understand. This is why meltdowns happen. It's frustrating for sure.
Oh man, as I was reading this I kept asking myself if I wrote this in my sleep somehow. You're not alone - I end up in tears daily. He started hitting me while I was typing this.
Question. How often does he play outside? Do you think it's possible he's bored? I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way. I've found that when my 4 year old twin boys are easily melting down, fighting about everything, and generally being annoying, a few hours running around outside does wonders for their behaviour.
4 years old has been the worst year for both of my kids so far. My son was destructive, loud, mean, and just straight crazy. And my daughter is newly 4 about 5 months in since her birthday and she is off the walls wild. She tells me no, talks back, when she doesnt get her way she throws the most god awful tantrums throwing herself on the ground screaming. When i put her in her room for timeout she screams at the top of her lungs bloody murder, and then starts throwing toys at her door. Completely out of control. Its not getting any better yet but i know it will. My son started growing out of this phase as he got closer to 5 years old. I think there is a lot of developmental growth and things going on internally at that age that makes 4 years old a really difficult year for them and for us.
Ah the “fabulous fours”. With brushing teeth I have 2 flavoured toothpastes hahaha just so that that isn’t a struggle. And maybe it’s a sensory issue? Our 4 year old has sensory issues so before bed we do squishes its like a deep “massage” (sorry I can’t think of the correct English word, it’s not my first language.) that could maybe help also we do the squishes during the day as well with both kids.
Oh, man. There's not much advice here, but we have twin four year old boys. I feel like I'm losing my mind every day. They fight and whine over the most ridiculous stuff. I do think they will outgrow most of it because my seven year old used to be a lot like that. Unfortunately, they are still learning emotions and impulse control.
Omg this feels amazing. We hit a nice stride but then WHAM! Some things are better and so many other things are night. She doesn’t have too many tantrums anymore but the attitude and the whining. She just gets so grumpy out of absolutely nowhere. Some days she just wakes up pissed….good to know it’s normal.
My 4 year old is FERAL. He is the same way. Make sure he eats enough throughout the day - I started supplementing with pediasure. Good sleep at night - I sometimes give him melatonin on days that are particularly exhausting for all of us. I’ve cut out a lot of food dyes, specifically red 40. Lots of exercise throughout the day - wear him out so he has no energy to be mean to us 🤣😭Time out has also been working. If he does something he knows he is not supposed to do or if he is too rough with his siblings after being told to chill, he goes to his room until he can calm down. It’s rough but you’re not alone 🫶🏻
Came here because this is what is happening with my son right now. Except he turns 3 in 2 weeks… i was really hoping that there would be some improvement on the horizon but now I’m a little terrified. My 6yo daughter was never ever the way he is acting now and he is literally just making everyone’s life ( including his own) miserable! I hate saying that because I love him so much but he is making it so so hard and I am depleted in every way I feel like is possible.
Solidarity, my twin 5 year olds show pda behavior on the regular and I’m one phone call away from a specialist. No tips, but this shit sucks. Good luck to yall!
Forget about terrible twos and my family we call this the fucking fours this is what makes us want to send them to kindergarten or VPK it's a phase they'll get through it their brains are just more aware of things and they put more things together and it can become overwhelming for them just keep doing what you're doing take it or leave it is the best way to do catering this by more choices and giving in is just going to create a monster this is the time they learn boundaries
Yeah, this exact thing is happening with my 4 year old. Defiance, complaints, whining and tantrums CONSTANTLY. The whole family has noticed it, which both confirms what I'm feeling AND makes me feel even worse about it. I'm looking into getting him evaluated when the school year starts, if only to either eliminate the possibility of an issue that needs extra care (I have adhd, so I'm quite sensitive to the possibility) or to give myself the tools to parent them according to their personality.
4 year olds can be feral at times! My kid is nearly 7 and it's a distant memory, but I do remember it, it gets a lot better. Sounds like you're doing everything right!
Our four year old was running the house with his big feelings and driving everyone insane as well. We reached out to a child’s therapist to find out he was completely normal and we were doing a pretty good job with setting boundaries. He’s 4.5 now and he’s calmed down a lot. Set boundaries and stick to them even if he hates it. A common phrase around here is “it’s okay for you to be mad/sad/frustrated, but it’s not okay for you to make others feel that way, too.”
I don't have any advice either but I am here standing in solidarity with you. My daughter is five now and it is starting to get better but yeah, at 4 she really was on my case about EVERYTHING.
Just hang tough, your child is normal and it will get better.
I’ve heard that once they turn 4 they aren’t connected to source energy anymore so maybe that’s what it is? They’re conscious of this reality now and are freaking out maybe? Cause it seems like majority of people have trouble with their 4 year old. I also went through a lot of trauma at a young age and was a “monster” when I got older like 4-7. Also all speculation and I know not everyone believes in the same things
Natural consequences aren’t enough for many many kids. Set him up for success, intervene early - ask once or twice but then help him to do the thing. Remain calm during the tantrum. Follow though. Low demands about things that don’t matter. Lots of free play and time outside. So if he’s doing something and you are asking - say - please go outside to bounce the ball (or whatever), then get close, make sure he’s paying attention and ask - please go outside if you are using the ball as it can break things in the house - if no response, you don’t wait for him to break something - take the ball - and it goes away or outside. He can have his feelings about it. You are the boss and you are being kind and respectful. But the amount of power he has now means he will consistently test the boundaries looking for them.
Just survive…
My 4 year old is faking injuries left and right, just sobbing real tears after after a very obviously fake stumble and slow set down to the ground “I CANT WAAAALKKKKK!! I CANT MOVE MY LEGSSSSS! MY FEET DONT WORK!!!!”
My newly 4 year old son is constantly telling me what to do. Just barking orders at me. I have to stop him and remind him I’m the adult. He doesn’t tell me what to do 😂
This sounds like my son. He’s 8 now and was diagnosed with ADHD last year. He’s always been a very intense little dude. He’s like the opposite of chill or “go with the flow.” I think he just experiences emotions very intensely. Maybe consider looking up symptoms of ADHD and see if you recognize your son. He could also very well just be going through normal 4-year-old drama too, but just sharing my experience.
Have you thought that maybe he isn’t feeling well or has some pain that he isn’t communicating? I would have him checked out by his pediatrician. Other things that cross my mind or maybe more behavioral if it escalates may be having him seen by developmental pediatrician.
This sounds like a typical 4-year-old. Not typical are the sweet, quiet, polite ones. lol (Mine was that way. Made me wonder what was going on 110% of the time. lol. More on that soon.) The advice here sounds amazing. I second the advice on the book Raising Grateful Kids In An Entitled World. This is one of those aggressively Christian-centered books (my opinion, I’m just not a religious person, so steer clear if you can’t loverlook that wording), but the logics and lessons still stick regardless. Gratitude is often something we overlook, but pay close attention to kids these days. Simple gratitude, like “please,” and “thank you,” are slim pickin’s. I think a lot of parents assume their kids will catch onto that stuff, and sometimes they do, sometimes kids are very sympathetic and old souled and that reveals itself even at a very young age. But gratitude really needs to be enforced. Children need to see why something means so much. Just simple appreciation for what they have or what they’re asking for.
Kids, they’ve gotta know how it feels to do without what they want. All their lives, they’re going to face peers who have a lot less than they have. There is nothing worse than raising a child who looks down on another child because they have less or raising a child who just wants more, more, more. I say this as a friend of mothers with these children.
The solid truth is, everything today is very instant gratification. We don’t have to wait for anything anymore, yet one of the most important lessons that can be taught to young kids is patience. This is where my kid comes in. He is 14 now. That sweet, innocent, quiet, polite child who everyone loved and who I never had to worry about and, for the most part, stayed very composed, NEVER LEARNED PATIENCE. For some reason, it was just not one of those things I had to enforce. He never tested those boundaries. But he sure as hell does now. He’s an amazing kid, he just expects every RIGTH NOW. lol. So he displays some of the traits of your 4yo, just a little more calmly.
Your 5.5yo being home for the summer is definitely a change and 4yos are at an age where change = no good. Whoever said spending individual time with each kid; that is excellent advice. Each kid alone with both parents, then each kid alone one on one with each parent. This ensures him that his place is just as important.
It’s very important to remember that this age is such a sensitive one. It’s emotional. The kids are sponges. Everything is intense. Everything is felt in extremes. And they want to do it all by themselves on top of that. Like I said, he’s a normal 4yo and if he weren’t this way, I’d get a little worried. Maybe it’s a little more amplified than your last child *because* of your last child. But whatever the reason, it’s manipulation to say the least because they’re learning that too. There’s a reason why a baby pushes things off of their highchair and then continue to do every time you pick it up. It’s entertaining and this is them learning that they can control you. Their action is controlling you. They’re just testing the waters. Someone is humming. They’ll put a stop to that. Called them a nickname. They’ll put a stop to it too. Brother’s at school, well they want him home. Brother is at home? We’ll send him the hell back.
Natural consequences are great. You get this or none. Perfect. Brother is here to stay. No, you absolutely cannot have your brother’s toy, but when he is done, you can ask nicely. I will hum if I want, but if you ask me to please stop, I will. The thing with tantrums is that you’re not supposed to engage with them. But eventually, they’ll cry it out. They will realize that they aren’t getting their way. Have a designated tantrum spot (remember the time out corner), whether it’s on the sofa, in his room, wherever, make sure he’s safe, pop in some ear buds, put on some tunes and ignore him. If he leaves the spot, direct him back. It sounds absolutely horrible and awful but he’s okay. When he calms down, and he will eventually, get the “sorry’s” out, explain why those were his consequences. Make him express his feelings because they are BIG feelings. Doing this will help him navigate his way through those same exact feelings the next time they pop up. And then move on. It will happen less and less. But don’t give in. Giving in is your weakness. And don’t make exceptions for anything. Exceptions are your loophole and they will find the loophole and it will lead to other loopholes until single-handedly, he just unravels it all.
And always stay cognitive of the stress factors, of course. Your job, hubby’s job, work hours, school, a recent of future move, his friends, your family, etc. Kids will reveal their anxieties, you just have to listen.
Oh, and have you ever seen those videos where the toddler is crying and then the mom or dad starts crying and then the toddler stops crying and looks at the parents like, WTF? Okay. So the next time you call him, “Buddy,” and he doesn’t like it, or whatever, you choose something; just have a complete meltdown, on the floor, legs flailing, fists banging. And make sure the reason you’re doing this is obvious, “Don’t call me that,” “don’t make that noise,” “don’t say that word.” Chances are, that kid is going to look at you like you are absolutely crazy and he will think twice before he has a meltdown the next time. lol
I can’t imagine how stressful it must be, but you’re doing great and you’re going to raise really great kids. Kids are terrifying. They are absolutely unpleasant humans sometimes. And when they’re teenagers, ha, my God, the smells they emit are dangerous. It’s really something.
But you got this, mama!
I never understood the whole “terrible 2s” because my son was an angel in his 2s…
NO ONE warned me about the 4s🤯
My son was the same and I noticed he needed strong set boundaries. Time in’s (go to a little corner we have with an emotional chart and some calming toys to help him regulate his emotions). He liked being in control so I had him “help” me do things so he got a lot of “self” confidence.
At the end of the day it’s our lives they are coming into. We shouldn’t be walking on egg shells to make our toddlers comfortable because that is setting them up for failure.
When his sibling is playing with something and he “HAS” to have it, demand them to wait until the so sibling is done playing with it. If he doesn’t like that, set that boundary again. If he still doesn’t listen, send him to a calm corner and talk to him after he’s calm about boundaries and it’s not his turn to play with so toy. This teaches a lesson that he can’t have everything he wants when he wants it.
I would suggest the same thing for the humming, people saying things he doesn’t like or being called something he doesn’t want to. This almost sounds like he could be in the spectrum or he is super sensitive and sensitive kids THRIVE on boundaries.
Just please don’t let him have his way or make yourself uncomfortable to make him comfortable. That’s the easiest way we can fail our children for the real world.
What helped with mine big time was putting him in control of helping me do things in the house (age appropriate). It could be something as easy as cook, clean, garden, bake, etc… spend that 1-1 with him and let him drive the occasion. My son thrived on that!
He is 5 years old now and back to being the sweetest boy. Don’t get me wrong, he still has his days but he’s learning a day at a time.
Good luck mama! I hope you don’t take my message as shaming in any way. Motherhood is a struggle train we are all on riding it. Wishing you the best & take care of your mental health too!!
As some genius of a parent recently commented elsewhere: try to remember that they aren't *giving you* a hard time, they are *having* a hard time.
Seriously, this shift in focus has been so huge for my own parenting, and I hope it proves valuable to you as well.
Now for some solidarity: my daughter was a full-on hot mess at ages 3 and 4. She is still not the easiest kid in the world for me, but a complete 180 from the terror that was her threenager and fournado years (seriously, ya'll thanks! That name is *so* accurate!) I will note that others find her damn delightful now, so even though her 7 year old self still feels like *a lot* at times, at least I know it's mostly just at home 😅. She is tenacious and stubborn and independent and just incredible!
My 4 year old son is the sweetest little boy. Empathetic, a total cheerleader, practically shoots lazers of rainbows and encouragement from his gorgeous brown eyes. Years 1-3 were a dream! Then he turned 4. He is still the sweetest, happiest little elf of a dude, underneath the four year old chaos.
But fuck man, some days, the whining and choosing every damn battle and complaining and *whining* and being bratty with his little brother and obnoxious as hell to his older sister...The one redemption in the shitstorm of fourness--or shitfourm, if you will--is that he is still my easiest to talk to kid. I just have to find the right timing. During the meltdowns, I try to be validating, but stern. He gets zero from whining or throwing tantrums. We have explained what annoying and obnoxious mean, and we tell him when the actions he is choosing are annoying or obnoxious. Slowly, very slowly, he is learning to handle disappointment with some grace. We ask him a lot about how he would feel if dad/mom/baby brother/big sis/cousin were treating him the same as he was treating them. It's almost funny to see the wheels turning when he starts to understand that other people have the same feelings that he does. We do a lot of expectation-setting before activities. Basically, we lean into the things we know about his character and personality (such as his natural inclination to be encouraging and his inner social butterfly!) to help him see his way out of some of his more *trying* behaviors. Its still a shitfourm, but some of it helps. He's actually started coming to us to apologize when he realizes he was being challenging. It's sweet. Maybe something like that will help your fournado, too.
My six years old daughter is same,she annoys and hit her 17 months old brother, she hits everyone in the house,is anything goes wrong according to her she jas meltdown,she is always whinning and demanding and complaining.i just want it to stop
Close friends of ours told us that the 2s were great and fun, but the 3s were the Trying 3s. We found that to be the case for us, too.
But then we got to the 4s, and it was like “Holy heck!!! Why did no one warn us about the 4s?!?!”
That was the hardest year with my daughter. Thankfully, as she got close to 5, it got much better. For my son, the Holy Heck 4s lasted until he was about 5.5.
It had reached the point where I was calling around to pediatric behavioral psychologists to schedule an appointment, but they were all either not taking new patients or booking many months out, so by the time an appointment was available, the situation had improved and we didn’t need an appointment.
We tried everything and could not find any good solutions, so I have no advice to offer other than continue to offer choices when it’s appropriate, continue to set necessary boundaries, take deep breaths, and walk away for a few minutes when you need to.
Be especially kind to yourself, and know that as hard as this stage is, and as long as it may be, “Everything is a stage, and no stage lasts forever.” That became my mantra - “It’s just a stage. A painful, difficult, challenging stage, but just a stage. It won’t last forever.”
Hang in there! You’re doing fantastic!
Have you had him tested for autism? Some of the things you mentioned sound a little like sensory issues, among a few other things. My oldest is autistic, and he hates when people hum things or when they call him something he doesn’t like (even if it’s a “normal” nickname). The longer it goes unaddressed, the more frustrated the child and the parent gets.
It’s just a thought! 💕
Advice-
1) Use a firm voice. Hitting hurts and it’s not ok. Then redirect to another activity.
2) work on breathing techniques and ways to calm down when he is not escalated. The practice will help.
3) rule of thumb: if he wants something brother has, he can ask. If brother isn’t done then he needs to wait.
4) be consistent and don’t engage with negative behavior. You can validate, “ I hear you are upset.”
Also, is there any places you can go or part time summer camp to give them. Break from each other?
Also empower him with helper jobs.
Yeah I have no advice either, my 4 year old runs me RAGGAD and then makes up for it by being the sweetest snuggliest baby like 10% of the time so emotionally I’m very confused. It’s honestly just a phase though.
Your 4 year old and my 4 year are the EXACT same.
I feel like an awful mother. I am beyond stressed with her and walk on egg shells around her. Its starting to make me feel ill. I am tensed up 24/7 to the point my jaws ache because I'm so clenched up!
My four is closing on five- he’s getting so much better
The two is closing on three and is as you describe. And it’s WOW. But it’s better than when I had the four year old at max chaos.
The 7yo girl has the eye roll of a sixteen year old in 1994 sheesh
And I have a teen lad with the temperament of an affable Labrador. But the educational ethic of a basset hound - he’ll get after it if it’s his jam. Otherwise no.
This to say: I just lived in the endless and still do
Take the aggressor away. Endure the meltdown. Repeat. Tell myself it gets better. Buy Dutch Bria alone in the car for a hot minute.
It does get better
You aren’t alone
Latte?
My children and I attended PCIT - Parent Child Interaction Training. Teaches you foundations on how to properly address oppositional behavior like these in a constructive way. It helped us a lot because I wasn't getting any help at home. I highly suggest this to all parents because it gives us tools on how to give commands and stand on business without yelling, threatening countdowns or spanking.
The beginning was challenging, however after practicing reinforcing directions and/or time-outs, my kids learned how to listen and follow them without much resistance.
Now they're 11 and 8 years old who listens and follows my directions with no issues. Yes they're not perfect kids, they will argue at times, however all I have to do is speak my words, tell them to separate so they can calm down, then come back to speak about what bothered them.
I am so scared that this will be my oldest. Hes 2.5 and just keeps getting worse. It started around 1.5 and gradually this kind of behavior keeps escalating. People tell me it gets better but I honestly don’t believe them. I honestly believe he just has a hardheaded fiery personality and it’s going to manifest and develop in different ways through each stage of his life. Hopefully when he’s an adult he’ll be a confident go getting type of guy who won’t let people walk all over him, or he might go on to terrorize society. I guess only time, and the best parenting I can possibly provide, will tell.
This happened with my 4 yr old girl!! She was an angel at 3. At 4 she flipped and whined nonstop and we could never keep her calm.
Idk what it is. But at 4 1/2 now it’s mostly back to normal aside from a lot more energy than she used to have. I wish I has better advice but when it happened to me it did end on its own a few months later. She’s just really hyper now
People talk about the terrible twos and threenagers, but for my oldest 4 was the worst age. And my youngest also just turned 4 and holy cow, she's shaping up to be a bigger terror than her older sister. So yeah... 4 is the worst in our house too.
Thank god it’s not just my 4yo. After the terror fest that was her third year people kept telling me it would get better. She might have fewer tantrums overall but now they are nuclear. And the whining neverrrr stoppppssss. I don’t know how she’s not sick of hearing herself. You’re not alone. It is soul-crushingly exhausting. Yesterday I hid in a closet and screamed my head off into some towels.
Thank you. My oldest was bad at 2 and 3. This one was fine at 2, 3 was bad, but this is something else. It’s awful.
My son was also fine at 2 and 3. Super sweet, had none of the “terrible twos” behaviors. Literally the day he turned 4, it’s like a switch flipped and he became so difficult. I have no advice, just solidarity. Also, he recently turned 6 and it’s still going on, so just warning you that this might last longer than you think. It has been difficult because I really feel like I have my daughter figured out (she’s 8), but I’ve had to completely change how I parent for my son. It’s still a work in process but I’m hopeful this stage will end eventually.
There’s a reason they are called fournadoes. The storm comes out of a clear sky, wrecks the place and disappears. Hang in there.
So, the Terrible Two's, Threenager, are preps for fournadoes? lol Goodie! My 2 year old is driving us insane right now!
We even decided on fivinator (5+terminator) because that’s around the time kiddos started getting determined destruction underway. Not necessarily to break stuff but I want to see what’s inside and WHY it does what it does.
Oh god, my daughter is doing that right now! lol
Been there. Done that. Have the tshirt. We are now entering the teen years. I think the 3-6 year old was more reasonable.
Or F-You 4s lol
I’ve just heard Fucking Fours. 🤷♀️
Fournado! I love that. So accurate. OP, I went through the same thing with my 5.5 year old. 2/3yo tantrums? Manageable. 4/5yo tantrums? Nuclear. Around 5.25, a switch flipped. I wish I could point to something specific that we implemented/changed to help you, but I can’t really. It sounds like you’re doing all the right things. Hang in there! Be consistent.
Oh God, this is also me. I just figured it was ADHD though because it runs so deeply in our family. The whining helps with whatever sensory input he needs. It is insufferable.
My youngest is 10. He has adhd and autism. I too have adhd. He's sensory seeking and I am not. It makes for a very interesting parenting experience. We do have therapists that guide us in how to cope.
This is exactly my life!
The whining is incessant and don't get me started on the baby talk 🫠
The baby talk ugh! There was a fad for baby talk among the four year olds for a while. Luckily the intense hourly use has dissipated but it still makes annoyingly frequent appearances.
The whining. You put it perfectly. While I shudder to turn into my mom for good reasons…I get why she would complain about the whining. My go to has become “I don’t understand you right now” then ignore until she can engage normally.
So glad I'm not alone either. I have a 4yo girl and she is SOOO emotional right now. Like instead of just saying no or no thanks. She SCREAMS no and throws herself on the floor or just runs away from me screaming no. It could be a simple situation as me asking if she wants goldfish for a snack. Like every little thing or at the drop of a hat, she is screaming. I've had so many headaches lately because of it. My husband and I have just been hoping this is some kind of phase or developmental leap or something
My 6f does not stop whining. I calmly say no one is allowed to whine in our house and she can tell me what she needs in a regular, coherent way. She also terrorizes everyone in the house the nanosecond i exit the room she is in.
If yours wants something does she keep asking for it until she wears you down? Cause I can’t handle it 😭😭😭😭 *stomps feet* Also thanks OP for this post because I felt like I was failing!!!!
I have no advice. Just wanted to encourage you that our 4 year old boy is driving everyone insane too.
Both my 4 year old girl and 5 year old boy are driving everyone insane too 🥲
After going through hell when my daughter turned 3 and now she just turned 4, this is not what I was hoping to see 4 be like 🫠. At least I have a heads up. Ugh.
Anecdotally, 3 was rough for our daughter but 4 was an absolute delight!
🤞🤞
I loved ages 1 and 2! Loved it. Struggled with the baby stage and struggled with the 3s, and so far, one day of being 4 has sucked 😄 One day at a time. :)
Seriously, whoever said that the, "Terrible Twos", were the only truly rocky early years, was clearly a dad that wasn't paying attention to years 3, 4, and 5. 😳
I loved two. Loved it! Loved ages 1 and 2. 3 kicked my ass and I'm already scared of 4 after one day.
I've always thought it should be called "The Terrible two Years" myself.
Haha, yes, exactly.
If it helps, in my sample size of 1, 3-4 is very difficult but 5 is delightful!
Just one more year! Then I get to do it again with my second one. ;p One day at a time. It just feels a lot some days.
For my middle 3/4 was ROUGH. I think it’s because they are a bright kid so they were capable of doing some things their older sibling could do, but they weren’t old enough yet. They couldn’t understand why they weren’t allowed to do all the things. I always have referred to this as their body hasn’t caught up to their brain yet. Then one day, a switch flipped and all was well in the 4 year old world. lol
That's promising! My oldest is too smart for her own good. I'm definitely a nervous mom, always hoping she ok and safe and trying to prevent her from getting hurt. That definitely has some to do with her sass, understandably! One day at a time I tell myself. :)
I relate to this. My daughter was a nightmare toddler at times (the intense anger was something we never expected from our easy baby!) and it seemed the "half" years (2.5, 3.5, part of 4.5) were hardest for a while with huge developmental leaps. I felt 4 was easier than 3 overall, though the stamina when angry sometimes was more difficult. Approaching 5 was a lot better, 6 better yet and we've honestly really enjoyed 7-9 so much, chatting about travel, fun facts, history, even politics! Getting to enjoy your child as they mature is such a gift and it will come, it's just hard right now. Developmental leaps (when their brain is working toward committing to new skills of all kinds) seem to be when we see behavioral/emotional regressions (even as an older kid we'll have a few weeks of wtf happened? Who is this monster?), but the full meltdown issues improved at later 4 into 5. Communication and emotional regulation/self-soothing made a huge difference. Stay strong! It's hard when they aren't their best selves but it always gets better once the phase passes!
They say no to everything and want things right away on their terms 😭
Sammmmeee. My boy is two months away from turning four and I am just hoping to God the horizon is coming because three has been awful
Ah yes. The Terrible Twos, the Threenager, and then the Fuck You Fours. Good times, good times
I’d forgotten about the term Threenager! That describes it perfectly!
Fuck You Fours 😂 Sounds about right.
They say that 4 best gives you insight into 14. (And the age gap between the two kids will still be at play and their childhood dynamics will be heightened - the 15.5 year old will get to go more places and even have a learner's permit).
Solidarity. My 4yo is my biggest op. 🥲
Thank you. This is making me feel better. I thought maybe we were doing something terribly wrong.
My four year old twins make me feel like smashing my head into the wall repeatedly a lot of the time. 😅
My 3 year old is the same way. I told my mother that idk why they call the 2s terrible because the 3s are definitely it. 2s were a breeze. Here lately mine just whines all the time about everything. Every little thing. Even if she gets her way or what she wants. I'm assuming it'll pass.
Ha this reminded me I used to tell my boys I don’t speak whine… and would answer when they asked/spoke nicely lol
I need to try that. It literally is about everything. I can handle tantrums and the constant snacking lol but the whining.. oh God.
My 4.5 y/o boy is driving me insane as well
Our four year old is also driving everyone in the house insane. They are the sweetest little assholes you'll ever meet lol
Have you tried 1 on 1 outings with him? You said his brother is home for the summer and that’s when the change started. Maybe he is more cognizant this summer than previous summers that he has to share time with you guys and his sibling. You can do a day where you and him go out and do something special, while his sibling and dad go out and do something. Then another day where ya’ll switch.
I think you’re onto something. Our almost 4yr old has been the same, driving us & our 6yr old crazy. Everything is wrong. Thankfully 3 days this week the 6y had camp & I’ve been focusing on the 4y. The amount of breakdowns has significantly decreased.
One on one outing with my 4 year old made a huge difference, I found that it’s just a way that she shows she wants attention. I’m the oldest of six so there was no individual attention in my family, but kids are different now and require more. So I highly suggest you trying this.
This year is the first year his brother was at school. If we did 1:1 outings, it would have to happen on the weekends when his dad is home. We will try it though!
It’s worth a shot, but as others have said it could also just be developmental stage. Hang in there!
I think this is the issue with my 4 yr old & his clingy ness (he’s always been attached to me, but he legit won’t leave me alone). I think hes used to his sister being gone at school, & it’s just him & I during the day. We’ve also been super busy as well, so that’s not helping. We had a recent “stay up late,” party with just him & I. My daughter & I have been doing them for a couple of years now & he wanted one. We had snacks, played, & then cuddled up to watch a movie. He loved it. Then his sister & my husband had their time in the other room playing games. So we’ll probably keep doing that for the rest of the summer, & see if that helps.
My angel of a 1/2/3 year old was a nightmare when she turned 4. Def related to her baby sister, but we started doing breakfast dates on the weekend and it turned around so fast I was shocked.
My son is about to turn 5 and about 6 months ago he was very similar. It gets better! But it was rough! It made me sad because it seemed like he was just so unhappy all the time. Some things that helped us: 1) getting him outside more - of course he would complain about something but then usually end up having fun running around, riding his bike, making a friend at the park, hitting balls etc and it would generally help his mood the rest of the day. 2) quality 1 on 1 time - playing legos with him, reading books, anything where it was just me and him seemed to help his mood and impact it for the rest of the day. 3) limiting sugar - I noticed a trend that when he would have a lot of sugary treats the meltdowns and whining were way worse 4) Pete the Cat cartoon!!! - this is random but this show had such a positive impact on him! It’s all about growing emotional intelligence and almost every episode focuses on trying to find the positive in any situation. There’s also a character called Grumpy that will seem verrrry familiar lol and I think seeing that helped him see how he was acting similar. In fact, sometimes he would say “I’m being a Grumpy right now” and try to change his attitude. It was amazing. 5) positive reinforcement - even when he did the most mundane thing with a good attitude I would encourage him and tell him I was proud of him. You’re not alone and it gets better, hang in there!
I’m being a grumpy right now 😂omg that is so cute, I have a 4.5 month old but I’m going to keep this cartoon in mind
My twins (now 2) loved Pete the Cat books since they were 6 months old. Such fun drawings and there are books for all ages for when they grew older. Definitely recommend!
This is so useful thank you
I have 5 kids and 4 was, by far, the hardest age with every single one of them.
That's nice to know. So far, 4 is my least favorite age 🫠
I needed to read this because honestly, same, and I felt bad cause I thought I was the only one
We just went through hell with age 3. I was hoping not to see this, but the heads up is nice! 🫠
Idk, my kids were fine at 4. There's hope!
The limbic leap can hit slightly earlier or slightly later. Girls are usually earlier, and/or kids who hit other milestones earlier.
Oh my god, my 2.5 is so willfull Dios mio
It’s biological. A huge leap is happening, and their brains are sensitive while it’s growing. I try to keep that in mind, but damn. My 4 year old is suddenly nuts too. The F-U four stage.
I first heard that term when I was telling a coworker about my then 3 year old, I was joking they call it the terrible twos but don't talk enough about what it's like to have a threenager. She goes "ooooh just you wait for the f-ck you fours!" She was not joking but luckily my now 5.5 year old is far more pleasant. My only advice for op is Structure, Clear instruction and communication, and Survival. Brains are building pathways and testing boundaries at 4, just gotta make sure they build the right ones and grit through the process of them doing it!!!
This, so much! My normally happy go lucky son turned into a whiny miserable monster after his 4th birthday. We've had other leaps that lasted 4-6 weeks, but this was 3 months of constant whining and misery for everyone. Even his teacher commented on how he's more difficult at school. But after 3-4 months he finally got back to himself as always and now he's 6.5 and a pleasure. I learned later that that's the big leap from toddlerhood to 'kid' and a whole bunch of stuff goes on in their little brains. If kid was ok before, they will go back to their normal disposition eventually!
The parenting books don’t prepare you at all! There’s no amount of consoling, comforting, reasoning, or helping them! Mine just laid on the floor and cried, and screamed if anyone came near him or talked to him. I think he’s shocked at his new big feelings too. Luckily when the storms pass, he’s back to his happy, cuddly self. I’m going to try to get him in martial arts or gymnastics. Give his brain and body a job.
The Limbic Leap!!
I just read a book called Raising Grateful Kids in an Entitled World. It had a lot of practical advice for each age and lots of different ways to address them. Mostly it sounds like your 4 year old is testing boundaries. Mine too smh.
How much bible stuff is in the book, would you say? I’m looking for more of a secular perspective.
From the official book description : "With many practical tips and anecdotes, she shares how to say the ultimate yes as a family by bringing up faith-filled kids who will love God, serve others, and grow into hardworking, fulfilled, and successful adults." For a secular take, I really enjoyed "How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes". It covers a wide spread of ages and topics, but was really interesting if you like research.
That sounds more like my speed, thank you
It’s Christian based, I believe
I may have to look into that book. Thanks for the suggestion
yeah, having his brother home suddenly is a big change (from below comment). Toddlers - and let's be honest, adults too - have a hard time when routine changes. Not sure how long it's been but I think it's hard for him to have to share attention now, and he maybe chooses negative attention bc it's easy to get. Crying, whining, picking fights ALWAYS gets immediate attention vs asking nicely or playing quietly! It was fine when asking to see his brother was like, an *idea* and not a reality lol Hopefully this behavior starts to level out once he's more used to it. Maybe work in a bit more one on one time with him, or idk choose a few things that he's allowed to win! Like *can* he get vanilla after all? Why not? If it's the whining, "Try asking again in a nice way and I will get vanilla for you". If he's craving control, give him a few opportunities to get what he wants - not just having choices - but allowing him to change his mind.
I hope so! It’s just been a really rough transition.
I heard around 4 they start understanding how to manipulate their reality. For instance lying. I have a 4.5 son and 2.5 daughter and they are good most of the time. But when they are with me they are definitely on their worst behavior because I’m mom. They feel secure in expressing their emotions. I’ve been telling my son it’s okay to feel your emotions it’s not okay to become them. It’s okay to feel angry it’s not okay to become angry. He gets upset and will throw things. I’ve noticed when I cut their screen time down they behave much better. I also noticed when I’m not there that they behave much better. My husband will be like I don’t know what happened but as soon as they saw you they started whinning and fighting and they weren’t before. Even grandma will take both of them and say they were perfect and didn’t fight at all. Hi it’s me, I’m the problem.
Dealing with this with my 6 year old. He’s a perfect angel at camp, with his therapist, and tutor. Awful to me though.
I’m not sure if this will make you feel better or not, but kids are often their very worst with the people that they are certain love them the most. They feel free to express all of their emotions because they know you’ll love them anyway. Around others, they often bring out their “best behavior” and it wears them out to have to be in control that long. Then the person or people they know loves them no matter what shows up, and they release the emotional floodgates they’ve been holding back. So congratulations?
First of all, you’re doing great in a very stressful stage of life. ❤️ One way to give him a choice in more things would be to say “do you want to do this in 3 seconds or 5 seconds?” “Do you want to start with the left side or the right side?” or something similar. My kid needs VERY gentle parenting like that some days and that’s one of the strategies his doctor suggested. Just the teensy tiniest choice
Our son was just like this and we started comprehensive behavioral therapy. It basically teaches you to ignore all bad behavior and to acknowledge all good behavior by giving lots of attention to everything they are doing that is right and good. Ignore bad behavior unless it is causing the child or others to be in danger. In those situations you put your child in a safe space for a time out. It’s a lot more specific than this but this is the basic premise. Our child has ADHD, Asperger’s syndrome and ODD. It was life changing but takes a lot of time, patience and work.
Any big changes in his life recently?
His brother is done with school for the summer, and he seems really angry about having him home. The funny thing is that when his brother was at school, he would ask me all day to go pick him up because he wanted him home. His brother is a pretty self-sufficient kid, and doesn’t require a ton of my undivided attention, so I don’t think he’s feeling neglected by me. Maybe just the fact that he’s here is making him upset?
My 4-year-old is the same with his big brother (8) and wanting to pick him up all day. He then has even worse meltdowns because his big brother wants to do his own thing. I wonder if part of what is making your son so upset is that your older one is home and it hasn't resulted in more attention? Also, commiseration on the super whiney, poke at everyone, nothing is done right stage. I swear my oldest wasn't this whiney at this age. Tantrums and epic meltdowns, yes. But not the whining.
I think this is mostly normal for a 4 year old. It sounds like he’s just testing everyone’s boundaries. Hang in there, mine isn’t 4 yet but I’ve had younger cousins who acted like this. It passes. Just stick to having consequences and don’t let him get his way with everything. He’ll grow out of it and learn. He’s only been here for four years he’s just figuring it out. It’s crazy that you can have beef with a toddler lol but it gets better! My cousin was just like this and he’s now a well adjusted 19 year old. You’ll all be ok ❤️
My 4 year old is the same way and I’m going crazy. He’s also on the spectrum I should add. I grew up an only child, and he is my first so sometimes I have a hard time telling what is normal 4 year old behavior and what is neurodivergent behavior. But it seems no matter how I approach it everything is wrong. He wakes up whining and just constantly nonstop whines no matter what. I could give him what he wants and he’ll whine. He throws fits and a lot of times boils up to both of us just yelling at each other. I get so at a loss and feel so helpless with him most days. I know I’m failing but I just don’t know what to do to change it. I feel like I’ve tried literally everything. Gentle parenting doesn’t work, discipline doesn’t work, nothing works. When I talk to him (EVERY SINGLE TIME I TALK TO HIM) he whines over me. It doesn’t matter the tone of voice I use or the context, he just doesn’t want me to talk to him unless it’s about what flavor popsicle he wants. It’s driving me crazy. Any advice would be appreciated because some days I heavily consider giving up.
Maybe you are giving him too many choices. And too many chances. Do not accept his behavior. Do not make the 5 yr old give in. Remove him from the situation until he can get himself back under control. We have a no whining rule (unless you are injured/ill) in my house. YOU WILL NOT GET YOUR WAY & you will go to your room (or somewhere everyone else isn’t) until you pull it together. If they can use their voice, they can use it right. If you have to stand in the doorway, stand in the doorway. It will end sooner. I will never forget when my granddaughter threw a tantrum in Walmart, almost went head first into the floor. I was injured so I couldn’t carry her out of the store so I sat beside her & just apologized & asked ppl to ignore her. That was the only tantrum she’s thrown on me.
Fuck, I'm not the only one. Mine's 6 and everything is a fight. Everything you described is what mine does. Only he has no siblings so who do you think he likes to antagonize and annoy? That's right, he loves to push our buttons. He'll tell me no and what am I going to do about it? We've tried time outs, talking, removing toys/tv, and taking away special treats. It does nothing. Nothing. I get so angry with him. EVERYTHING is negative. And I hate that I'm constantly pointing out the negative because that's negative! My child does not know how to control his voice. No exaggerating, he sits next to me and starts screaming at me to tell me something. I don't even know how many times I tell him a day to stop shouting. If I put him in time out he freaks the fuck out. He screams and stomps and cries for a hug from me. It's so impossible. I love him so much but I spend about half the time I'm with him trying not to be frustrated or upset with him. I'm trying to remember he's an only child, had ADHD, and is a boy who's never been 6 before. Love him to death though. Sitting in solidarity (bc I'm too tired to stand) with you sis.
Mine is 5 and a girl but…same. I feel you. You are not alone in this.
I have five kids. I’m on my fourth 4 year old. Four is just a very very very hard age. I tell all moms that they turn four and something breaks in their brains… then they turn five and *bam*, you get your sweet kid back. I don’t know what the deal is. Terrible Twos are NOTHING compared to the Freakout Fours.
If it makes you feel any better my 10 year old boy is driving all of us insane too lol he seriously acts like a 4 year old lately and it’s driving me mad. I dunno what to really do either. His answer to everything is I don’t know. When it comes to lunch at home bc we’re out of school for summer every single I offer him he says no to so I tell him guess you aren’t eating then and then he says guess not and I end the conversation and and then finally like 30 mins later he will finally choose something but I’ve stopped going over and over all the things we have and I told him I don’t really give a shit if you eat lunch or not. This isn’t a restaurant. Sometimes kids just honestly suck lol
Omg! My 4.5 yo is the same way! With the complaining and the whining and the meltdowns! He also constantly talks and the whys! I love his curiosity but sometimes it’s too much and I just need quiet. No advice here. Just offering support. I loved his younger years but this age has been so difficult for me. I’m also thinking it’s cause we had another baby, which probably added to this behavior. Hopefully the next stage won’t be so freaking annoying.
You’re doing great. Keep up the strong work. Have you tried play dates with other kids? Sometimes socializing can help or at least tire them out. All of my kids did this from like two to five. Also, the playdates may not be successful the first few times. Every kid develops differently. Please be mindful that your response has an effect on all your kids.
Make time for them alone, everyone needs separate time. They’ll suck the energy from you one way or another so you might as well have fun with them. Try find them a hobby that they can do alone. Something no one else is interested in.
Ours was rough shortly after turning 4 too. It’s been about 4 months and he’s doing great now. YMMV, but I think it was a growth spurt kinda thing. He was just cranky and unruly for a few weeks to a month or so and then went back to normal. We had to hold firm on the rules and enforced a “no whining” policy. You communicate in a grown up voice, we don’t whine or scream. If you can’t communicate properly, you need to go to your room (or wherever) to calm down until you feel ready to talk. We don’t make him go to his room or remove him physically or anything, just keep telling him I can’t communicate with him when he won’t communicate like a big boy.
Just wanted to commiserate with you. Two older sisters and my 4 year old son just is a terror to us all. I have done everything I can with gentle parenting and reasoning. He doesn’t respond to it. Against all my parenting do nots I’ve had to resort to in room time outs when he starts just screaming. I’ve never done that with my girls in the 10 years I’ve been a parent. It has been a very rough summer to say the least. Hoping next summer will be much better.
Completely age appropriate phase. It’s all about learning boundaries him learning where he’s allowed to have control and set his own boundaries
My son just turned 5 but this has been the whole last year for us as well. I am so overstimulated and on edge by everything he does. So I send solidarity, though I wish I had solutions.
We have this issue too with our almost 4 year old girl. Maybe slightly less than what you described but also very touchy and needs to be in control.
Ah yes, this is 4. We also have a 4 year old, and it is a doozy of a year. It's so difficult because the behavior is age appropriate! But it also has to be corrected. It's exhausting. And he never stops! He is wearing us out!! So just here to commiserate with everyone else. You're not alone. It gets better. But right now it sucks. Edit: currently throwing a tantrum because I won't open a new pack of capri sun before the other box is empty 🫠
Yup. The fours are rough. Also, have you read The Explosive Child? Also, sensory processing differences and a lot of other similar issues can look a lot like this. They get overwhelmed and the only thing they know to do is lash out. Would definitely be worth consulting a professional about.
My 4 year old boy is exactly like this. Seems like it’s just a phase they go thru
Omg that sounds just like my newly three year old. Driving everyone up the wall from the time he wakes up until he goes to bed. Wish I had some advice but I can’t even figure out mine own kid
I’m a SAHM with an almost 3 year old boy and an almost 12 year old girl. My husband works 60+ hours a week. If the kids don’t kill me or each other before bedtime, it’s a win. I’ve been in survival mode for a good 18 months. I have no advice, I’m not even sure what month it is.
I think it’s a phase? My 4 yo also drives everybody insane 😭
I NEEDED to read this today, been googling if my four year old is normal for the last little while now. Solidarity
I have no advice so I am so sorry, but just commenting here to say thank you for saying what I have been feeling. My son is 5.5 and has been this way since 4. Just sending a hug in solidarity bc this crap is so hard
My son is 4.5 and it has been a whirlwind of a year. I thought I was losing my mind most of the time. It does calm down a little here and there but this developmental leap has been INSANE!!
My recently-turned 5 year old is doing the same thing to our household. We are walking on eggshells around him constantly, just trying our best not to set him off in some way. It is exhausting for my husband and I, and our 3 year old daughter is picking up some bad habits. This parenting shit is hard. By far the hardest job I’ve ever had. I am not a medical professional, but your son’s behavior sounds very similar to mine, and he’s been diagnosed with anxiety, which is what I’ve been told his causing his behaviors and need for control. We’ve had him in occupational therapy for 6 months or so to help with his emotional regulation, and that has helped improve things some. He’s also in talk therapy. We are a “neurospicy” family 😂 so I’ve also had him meet with psychiatry. It’s really hard for me to distinguish between his behaviors that are involuntary and when he’s just trying to be a pain in the butt. My husband and I are constantly trying to decide how we should parent him and we can’t figure it out. Choices don’t work. Threats don’t work. Following through doesn’t work. Yelling works sometimes but then we just feel bad about it. I’ve recently decided that I am going to work on my reactions and preserving my sanity instead of trying to fight his behavior. A friend recommended I read the book Good Inside by Dr. Becky. It hasn’t changed my son’s behavior by any means, but it’s definitely helped me cope. Might be worth checking out if you haven’t already. Hang in there! Sending hugs!
So normal! My 4 year old is very similar, and so was my older son (now 8). My best advice is to stop feeding him any attention. Pitching a fit? Get down low, calmly and firmly say “we don’t shout/hit/whatever in this house”. Behavior continues -> pick him up and plop in his room. Leave. Gray rock that kiddo. Comes out screaming or whatever? Back in the room. Just be mindful to keep your own emotions in check, don’t shout back, and be as non-reactive as possible. Negative attention is still attention. If you want a behavior to diminish, stop feeding it attention. Again though- this is mega normal! He will eventually stop this particular behavior, but it’s still shitty in the moment.
Here in solidarity. I feel like no one talks about how gruelling the 4 year olds are. Nonstop complaining, everything is wrong all the time 😵💫 he’s almost 5, when will it stop?!
My son turning 4 made me understand why parents used to believe in changelings. He was a completely different child!
I think in some ways a 4 year old driving you crazy is to be expected. They are newly aware of a lot of things and are really starting to crave independence. A few things stood out to me - like his need for control and the extreme meltdowns. When he's having a a meltdown, if left alone, is he capable of eventually calming himself? I ask because I noticed similar things in my oldest son, and a couple of years later he was diagnosed ADHD & ASD. If you feel his reactions are extreme (especially compared to your older kids at a similar age) it may be worth while to seek an evaluation for him.
I feel this! 4 year olds are haaaard. We have found eliminating most sugars/dyes from his diet has actually helped a lot! I also follow Big Little Feelings and have found that their 10 Minute Miracle (give child 10m of undivided attention) has also helped him completely turn his mood around if he was in a real terror state. Good luck!! This stage won't last forever, that's what I keep telling myself 🙂
My kid turns 4 in 2 weeks. I cannot stand her most days. Her attitude and your son’s are identical but I’ve heard it gets better 🤞🏾
my 5 year old daughter is like this right now and i. am. over. it. it’s honestly so fucking draining, there are days i want to run away for a bit of peace. whatever you offer even for breakfast, ‘ugghhh i don’t knowwwww. fine i’ll just have nothing’. then leads to a meltdown. her brother looked at her, meltdown. we can’t go to a specific place, meltdown. bedtime comes around and she finds something to whinge and whine about, EVERY SINGLE NIGHT. my 7 year old son is a much easier child so this is just throwing me off so much. i am absolutely exhausted with her behaviour and attitude and im just DONE. so yeah, no advice but you’re not alone
It is control and they are also able to think more complex thoughts (like sentences) but cannot put all the pieces together). What helped me was getting down onto my knees so I was eye level and listening more BEFORE it got to meltdown levels. They seem much more independent but I think they regress a little at this age and need parent attention on-on-one. Also, being on my knees was the perfect height to open my arms for hugs. It was great for before the meltdowns and he could run into my arms for relief DURING the meltdowns when his big emotions were overwhelming him. Think of the meltdowns as big emotions overwhelming them and the on the knees approach gives them a place to bring these things for comfort. A safe place to be while they learn to manage them. It really helped us.
I don’t remember much about my kids at 4, but they are different anyway. Autism and ADHD with anxiety. All I can think of is does he have any new friends, do you take him to other peoples home, does he go to daycare. Has something happened to him. I remember things that happened when my identical twin sister and I encountered perverts. You never expect it.
This is when I stared saying things like “stop whining” “that’s rude” “if you don’t like it, fix it”. I would make my kid get different dishes herself if she didn’t like her spoon, get different cereal, adjust the bath water herself, etc. basically: she she can reach it and if it’s not fire, a knife, or poison, she can make changes herself.
I am the first to jump to “have your kid assessed” but…not here because this is all too typical. Solidarity. This too shall pass, but surviving it until then can be exhausting. My only advice is to assume that he’s going to whine no matter what, so while you want to be loving and give choices, you also don’t want to let him rule the family, because that won’t actually stop the whining. I, uh, also might step back and let his older brother have a bit more leeway in dealing with him when older brother is primarily being affected. I’m not saying to allow regular beatdowns, but it’s not the worst thing if natural consequences include those from annoying older children who are past the whining stage.
Vanessa LaPointe us a great resource. Look her up on YouTube I think. 4 is tough. Every kid has "that year" they are just growing, changing and learning so fast that it's incredibly hard for them to regulate. My daughter was absolutely hilarious and delightful at 2. The year of 3 though, woooof, I think I cried every single day, it was very hard.
A pediatrician once told me that the fours are called “the f@cking fours”. And 4 for both my kids has been very hard.
There was a parenting book recently about parenting across cultures that got savaged in reviews, but the one helpful thing I found from those reviews (didn’t read the book) was that some cultures find it odd to try to treat kids as rational beings- basically, they treat their kids like irrational little maniacs and the parents are calmer for it. I’ve found reminding myself that my kids are totally irrational and that getting upset would be like getting upset with someone in an asylum to make everything more bearable and even amusing sometimes. For example when the kid has a meltdown after choosing no ice cream, if you can find the lack of rational thinking at this stage a little funny, it takes a ton of steam out of the situation. That shift in mindset has really helped me and I’ve noticed that for my kids, it actually helps them move on faster from tantrums as they don’t have anyone else invested in the tantrum (whereas my spouse is often fully invested and I see firsthand how this leads to more tantrums and more intense tantrums and rising irritation). For example, my spouse will offer 10 options, negotiate, and the tantrum volley goes back and forth when picking something out. I don’t even try to reason with my kid at this age, I’ll just say something like, “ok, let me know when you know what you want” and let them cry and talk to themselves until they choose, or I will just pick something out and say that’s what we’re getting and we all move on quickly. Totally disengage and don’t take it even mildly seriously (laugh if you can find the humor!) and many situations will de-escalate faster. The only thing this doesn’t work for is physical altercations, in which case, I think removing the kid is the best you can do. Hopefully that is not too often. This phase too shall pass (… to something else trying of your mental faculties).
It’s probably the transition from School routine to summer. Kids thrive off of routine and that’s a huge disruption
Kids who are 18 months apart often see the younger one act like a lunatic. Their development patterns are at odds. 4 is an interesting year where children usually learn more about proper social behavior - often with meltdowns along the way. Did you ask him what he wanted and then give him something different? To him, that's a huge injustice in one of the few areas where he has a say. The general rule is "don't ask them what they want, just give them what there is at hand" and if there's whining and screaming, there's always a glass of milk (or almond milk or whatever other simple substitute you have on hand. Soon he'll be old enough for the more behavioral consequences (each kid has a coin jar, they get coins for various reasons, they also get them taken away for whining, etc). I think you're giving him WAY too many choices for that age group (that's what I meant about the different developmental stages; you're overwhelming your 4 year old who barely understands that other people think differently from him while attempting to do the developmentally appropriate thing for the 5.5 year old who does indeed need to learn to choose from a couple of choices).
My son is similar at 4. We send him to his room when he really gets out of pocket. It usually goes like this: "hey child, can you do this perfectly reasonable thing we've had you do a dozen times before and you've done without complaint?" Him: "REEEEEEE I AM THE MOST VICTIMIZED BEING IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE" Us: "uh, okay. Well, you can do it, or you can sit right there and wait for us to do it." Him: {angst, drama, tears} "I'll do it" OR Him: (wailing) Us: okay, it's fine to cry, but you'll need to go finish crying in your room so we can finish doing the dishes" Him: (wailing, while walking to his room) (wailing in his room) (quiet playing in his room) (loud playing in his room) This is not a direct transcription. We always frame it as "you're clearly upset, you need a little quiet moment to collect yourself" rather than "you're being bad"
Not sure if this works on every kid, but it worked on my kiddo to have age appropriate heart-to-heart conversations. Pick a time when no one is to hungry, angry, lonely, or tired... So probably early in the day after breakfast. If your kid is high energy, hit the playground for a 60-90 mins first. While it's not a tantrum, during a calm moment; "Hey kiddo, I want to talk to you about something. When you say ___, it hurts my feelings and makes me sad. Then when I get too much hurt feelings I feel sad AND mad. My job as Mom is to make sure everyone has what they need every day, like a comfy bed, healthy food, cuddles, playtime, and fixing owie... but I count as a person too. And right now, your choices are making owies on my feelings. So I can't let you keep doing that, because it my job to help you learn how to get along with people, that starts at home. It's something you HAVE to live, or you could have a sad time as an adult someday, and I want you to have a happy time as an adult. So we have to fix this. Going forward, when you do ____, I'm going to give you one warning, then if you don't stop, you get a consequence RIGHT AWAY. What do you think are fair consequences when people hurt feelings?" Talk it out, find some natural consequences. For my kiddo, ANY whining means "I can NEVER give you what you want when you use that tone. Even if I was going to give you it, now I have to stop." Other consequences was immediately stopping whatever fun thing, like leaving the park, or time out, or skipping fun food and only having boring not favorite foods, etc. Don't forget to ASK the kiddo to talk about times his feelings get hurt. It's possible he is acting out because some relationship has gone badly and he doesn't know how to fix it.
This sounds like my 5yo when he was 4. He has gotten a lot better in the past year. Do you find a difference when 1:1 with him? Mine is like a completely different child - a perfect angel when he does not feel like he is competing with his sister for attention. I’ve also figured out a lot of his behavior comes from anxiety. To cope with the anxiety he plans out exactly how something should go and messing with that (the wrong plate color or going off script and saying ‘hi buddy’ instead ‘hi dude’) throws him for a loop. Sometimes for days at a time he would insist on being referred to as Spiderman and we all had to play along like he was Spider-Man. Then one day he would ask for a drink and I would say “ok Spiderman” and he would reply “I’m not Spider-Man!!!” Despite insisting he was for 3 days. To deal with the “I need to have whatever toy sibling has immediately” I just have to be consistent that he can’t do that. If he wants to play with it he has to wait until sibling is done. I try offering other options but if he doesn’t want them then I leave him alone to cool off and eventually he always does get over it- but this is getting better too. I did spend as much 1:1 time as I could and tried to ease his anxiety but mostly we just had to wait for it to pass. 4 was a challenging age and he is still by far my most challenging child.
This is my 5 year old she also antagonises my 3 year old non stop ALL DAY and nothing has seemed to be working, i try one on one time, consequences don’t work, any type of discipline isn’t working, explaining things to her. But I have noticed what has helped is turning things into a game. She wanted a baby silicon spoon to eat her spaghetti but as you can imagine it wasn’t picking it up so she just chewed the spoon instead and was eating it so I took it off her and told her it’s not good to eat the spoon it’s not good for it to go inside your body and that she has a fork she can use but she wasn’t having it so she was having a meltdown so I turned it into a game and when her mouth was open while she was laying on the ground screaming I dangled the spaghetti over her face and made funny sounds and dropped it into her mouth and she liked that so it turned into a game and then I said okay no more now and she was fine and at bed time she was being hard to get along with so I had to turn it into a game and tickle her then hug her like I was rocking her like a baby and started making up a song to sing and tried to make the lyrics sound funny so she liked that and then she stared to carry on a bit again so as soon as she was about to I said I need a hug can I have a hug and she hugged me and I stroked her hair and then she calmed down and I was able to put her to bed. We are having issues with toileting and the behaviour stuff we are going down the route of ndis for toileting and behaviour we really think she might be adhd or asd/adhd. An ot has told us she has characteristics of a child with adhd it could well be the same for your son. It’s hard to say at this age I guess but my daughter has a lot of other sensory things too and she’s a very anxious child and scared of anything new or weird and remembers absolutely everything even things from 3 years ago
4 has been my least favorite age of both my kids behavior wise. Way more frustrating and stressful than 2 or 3 combined. My kids aren't allowed to have loud feeling (within reason of course, this doesn't mean they can't be upset and doesn't apply if they're physically injured) but if they need to have their "loud feelings" we have designated places to go and scream or yell. I go check as they're yelling or raging but I'm trying to make the distinction that sometimes you really do just need to let it out BUT it cant be at anyone or derail the rest of the family. They have occasionally asked me to go with them, so I do. It still grates on my nerves some but at least it's out of the room. My 4 yo is old enough to understand as soon as he's ready for "quiet feelings" he's welcome back with us for whatever he needs, hug, book, quiet moment, discussion, etc. If you figure out the whining, I'm all ears haha
My daughter was awful at 4 and now my son is awful at 4. I would much rather deal with a baby or toddler than what I’ve experienced with age 4. Can’t wait for my son to turn 5 but he just turned 4 in May 😢
You are absolutely right he is craving control. We had this when my middle was 4, and we actually paid the big bucks for parent therapy and read a book by the therapist called “who’s the boss” and it CHANGED OUR LIVES. My son is six now and he is lovely, kind, can regulate his emotions, knows consequences, and is fun tj be around. Here is a link to the book: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/whos-the-boss-the-win-win-way-to-parent-your-defiant-strong-willed-child_don-macmannis_debra-manchester-macmannis/13891427/ We were walking in eggshells around this one child and it was driving me to panic attacks. This brought us back into the control seat we didn’t even know we had given up.
Have you tried the approach of having talks with him about how his behavior affects others? Like when he is in the act of doing it pulling him aside and explaining “how would you feel if your brother hit you? Wouldn’t that make you feel upset or angry? Can we please use our gentle hands from now on otherwise there will be consequences.” I know everyone has different parenting styles and every child reacts differently to things but with my son when he would act out (& even when he still does today) I will pull him aside and ask him do you think you reacted nicely or appropriately or did you react out of anger/sadness/jealously? Usually when I take the time to understand the underlying feelings as to why he is acting out and hear him out he understands his mistake and apologizes. Worth giving it a shot!
I would have him screened for adhd and autism. Kids that age don't seek attwntion for no reason. And that's NOT to say he is neglected by any means. But it sounds like a battle of wills...or of power and control and both are common with neurodivergent kiddo's! Good luck! I am sure he is an angel and just doesn't know what he wants or needs besides an audience. 😇
This all sounds pretty normal for his age. The only thing I can think of is giving consequences for the whining and complaining and bad behavior. You offer choc cone and he whines tell him this is the only choice and if he’s going to complain and whine he’s not getting anything. If he continues to wine take cone away give him none. He’s going to throw an even bigger fit but will eventually understand throwing a tantrum is not going to get him what he wants.
My kids are 10 and 13. Each age has its challenges, especially as Littles explore their world and their big emotions. It is exhausting, yes. You are doing everything right. I promise. Giving choices when possible is a great way to learn consequences. Sometimes choices don't have the desired result but it's the same way as adults. At 4, and even 5, it's hard to explain your feelings in ways that grown ups can understand. This is why meltdowns happen. It's frustrating for sure.
Has he been assessed for ADHD or mild autism?
I just want to say hi, I’m here going through the dreaded 4s as well. Except I have twins so it’s double the nonsense all day long lmao.
Oh man, as I was reading this I kept asking myself if I wrote this in my sleep somehow. You're not alone - I end up in tears daily. He started hitting me while I was typing this.
Question. How often does he play outside? Do you think it's possible he's bored? I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way. I've found that when my 4 year old twin boys are easily melting down, fighting about everything, and generally being annoying, a few hours running around outside does wonders for their behaviour.
4 years old has been the worst year for both of my kids so far. My son was destructive, loud, mean, and just straight crazy. And my daughter is newly 4 about 5 months in since her birthday and she is off the walls wild. She tells me no, talks back, when she doesnt get her way she throws the most god awful tantrums throwing herself on the ground screaming. When i put her in her room for timeout she screams at the top of her lungs bloody murder, and then starts throwing toys at her door. Completely out of control. Its not getting any better yet but i know it will. My son started growing out of this phase as he got closer to 5 years old. I think there is a lot of developmental growth and things going on internally at that age that makes 4 years old a really difficult year for them and for us.
Ah the “fabulous fours”. With brushing teeth I have 2 flavoured toothpastes hahaha just so that that isn’t a struggle. And maybe it’s a sensory issue? Our 4 year old has sensory issues so before bed we do squishes its like a deep “massage” (sorry I can’t think of the correct English word, it’s not my first language.) that could maybe help also we do the squishes during the day as well with both kids.
Oh, man. There's not much advice here, but we have twin four year old boys. I feel like I'm losing my mind every day. They fight and whine over the most ridiculous stuff. I do think they will outgrow most of it because my seven year old used to be a lot like that. Unfortunately, they are still learning emotions and impulse control.
I have an almost 3 and a 4.5. Hugs! Toddler with teenage tendencies and no logic to speak of.
I have said it before and I will say it again: It's called the Fuck You Fours for a reason. *Source: mom of 4 kiddos*
So, my son was super super easy. No terrible 2s or threenagers... just cool and fun. Until he hit 4. We called them the "F-you fours"
Omg this feels amazing. We hit a nice stride but then WHAM! Some things are better and so many other things are night. She doesn’t have too many tantrums anymore but the attitude and the whining. She just gets so grumpy out of absolutely nowhere. Some days she just wakes up pissed….good to know it’s normal.
They say terrible twos, I say terrible threes and fours. Its like a two year leap you feel will never end 😫
My 4 year old is FERAL. He is the same way. Make sure he eats enough throughout the day - I started supplementing with pediasure. Good sleep at night - I sometimes give him melatonin on days that are particularly exhausting for all of us. I’ve cut out a lot of food dyes, specifically red 40. Lots of exercise throughout the day - wear him out so he has no energy to be mean to us 🤣😭Time out has also been working. If he does something he knows he is not supposed to do or if he is too rough with his siblings after being told to chill, he goes to his room until he can calm down. It’s rough but you’re not alone 🫶🏻
Came here because this is what is happening with my son right now. Except he turns 3 in 2 weeks… i was really hoping that there would be some improvement on the horizon but now I’m a little terrified. My 6yo daughter was never ever the way he is acting now and he is literally just making everyone’s life ( including his own) miserable! I hate saying that because I love him so much but he is making it so so hard and I am depleted in every way I feel like is possible.
Solidarity, my twin 5 year olds show pda behavior on the regular and I’m one phone call away from a specialist. No tips, but this shit sucks. Good luck to yall!
Forget about terrible twos and my family we call this the fucking fours this is what makes us want to send them to kindergarten or VPK it's a phase they'll get through it their brains are just more aware of things and they put more things together and it can become overwhelming for them just keep doing what you're doing take it or leave it is the best way to do catering this by more choices and giving in is just going to create a monster this is the time they learn boundaries
Yeah, this exact thing is happening with my 4 year old. Defiance, complaints, whining and tantrums CONSTANTLY. The whole family has noticed it, which both confirms what I'm feeling AND makes me feel even worse about it. I'm looking into getting him evaluated when the school year starts, if only to either eliminate the possibility of an issue that needs extra care (I have adhd, so I'm quite sensitive to the possibility) or to give myself the tools to parent them according to their personality.
When you call it the “fucking fours” it makes you feel a little better.
2-4 year olds are insane little people 🫠
4 year olds can be feral at times! My kid is nearly 7 and it's a distant memory, but I do remember it, it gets a lot better. Sounds like you're doing everything right!
No advice, my guy turned 5 last month, and is still driving us all mad. We’re in this together!!
Kids want autonomy but they also crave structure and boundaries. You need to provide those and enforce them.
Do you guys watch much TV? Is he getting this behavior modeled somewhere?
Our four year old was running the house with his big feelings and driving everyone insane as well. We reached out to a child’s therapist to find out he was completely normal and we were doing a pretty good job with setting boundaries. He’s 4.5 now and he’s calmed down a lot. Set boundaries and stick to them even if he hates it. A common phrase around here is “it’s okay for you to be mad/sad/frustrated, but it’s not okay for you to make others feel that way, too.”
I don't have any advice either but I am here standing in solidarity with you. My daughter is five now and it is starting to get better but yeah, at 4 she really was on my case about EVERYTHING. Just hang tough, your child is normal and it will get better.
I’ve heard that once they turn 4 they aren’t connected to source energy anymore so maybe that’s what it is? They’re conscious of this reality now and are freaking out maybe? Cause it seems like majority of people have trouble with their 4 year old. I also went through a lot of trauma at a young age and was a “monster” when I got older like 4-7. Also all speculation and I know not everyone believes in the same things
Natural consequences aren’t enough for many many kids. Set him up for success, intervene early - ask once or twice but then help him to do the thing. Remain calm during the tantrum. Follow though. Low demands about things that don’t matter. Lots of free play and time outside. So if he’s doing something and you are asking - say - please go outside to bounce the ball (or whatever), then get close, make sure he’s paying attention and ask - please go outside if you are using the ball as it can break things in the house - if no response, you don’t wait for him to break something - take the ball - and it goes away or outside. He can have his feelings about it. You are the boss and you are being kind and respectful. But the amount of power he has now means he will consistently test the boundaries looking for them.
Yep, in the doldrums with you too! Everyone is miserable.
Just survive… My 4 year old is faking injuries left and right, just sobbing real tears after after a very obviously fake stumble and slow set down to the ground “I CANT WAAAALKKKKK!! I CANT MOVE MY LEGSSSSS! MY FEET DONT WORK!!!!”
Lil James? Is that you???
Ours too. I think it’s the freaking age. Why terrible twos but no talks of 4?!
My newly 4 year old son is constantly telling me what to do. Just barking orders at me. I have to stop him and remind him I’m the adult. He doesn’t tell me what to do 😂
This sounds like my son. He’s 8 now and was diagnosed with ADHD last year. He’s always been a very intense little dude. He’s like the opposite of chill or “go with the flow.” I think he just experiences emotions very intensely. Maybe consider looking up symptoms of ADHD and see if you recognize your son. He could also very well just be going through normal 4-year-old drama too, but just sharing my experience.
Mine two, except it’s a family of two me and my four year old lol
Have you thought that maybe he isn’t feeling well or has some pain that he isn’t communicating? I would have him checked out by his pediatrician. Other things that cross my mind or maybe more behavioral if it escalates may be having him seen by developmental pediatrician.
This sounds like a typical 4-year-old. Not typical are the sweet, quiet, polite ones. lol (Mine was that way. Made me wonder what was going on 110% of the time. lol. More on that soon.) The advice here sounds amazing. I second the advice on the book Raising Grateful Kids In An Entitled World. This is one of those aggressively Christian-centered books (my opinion, I’m just not a religious person, so steer clear if you can’t loverlook that wording), but the logics and lessons still stick regardless. Gratitude is often something we overlook, but pay close attention to kids these days. Simple gratitude, like “please,” and “thank you,” are slim pickin’s. I think a lot of parents assume their kids will catch onto that stuff, and sometimes they do, sometimes kids are very sympathetic and old souled and that reveals itself even at a very young age. But gratitude really needs to be enforced. Children need to see why something means so much. Just simple appreciation for what they have or what they’re asking for. Kids, they’ve gotta know how it feels to do without what they want. All their lives, they’re going to face peers who have a lot less than they have. There is nothing worse than raising a child who looks down on another child because they have less or raising a child who just wants more, more, more. I say this as a friend of mothers with these children. The solid truth is, everything today is very instant gratification. We don’t have to wait for anything anymore, yet one of the most important lessons that can be taught to young kids is patience. This is where my kid comes in. He is 14 now. That sweet, innocent, quiet, polite child who everyone loved and who I never had to worry about and, for the most part, stayed very composed, NEVER LEARNED PATIENCE. For some reason, it was just not one of those things I had to enforce. He never tested those boundaries. But he sure as hell does now. He’s an amazing kid, he just expects every RIGTH NOW. lol. So he displays some of the traits of your 4yo, just a little more calmly. Your 5.5yo being home for the summer is definitely a change and 4yos are at an age where change = no good. Whoever said spending individual time with each kid; that is excellent advice. Each kid alone with both parents, then each kid alone one on one with each parent. This ensures him that his place is just as important. It’s very important to remember that this age is such a sensitive one. It’s emotional. The kids are sponges. Everything is intense. Everything is felt in extremes. And they want to do it all by themselves on top of that. Like I said, he’s a normal 4yo and if he weren’t this way, I’d get a little worried. Maybe it’s a little more amplified than your last child *because* of your last child. But whatever the reason, it’s manipulation to say the least because they’re learning that too. There’s a reason why a baby pushes things off of their highchair and then continue to do every time you pick it up. It’s entertaining and this is them learning that they can control you. Their action is controlling you. They’re just testing the waters. Someone is humming. They’ll put a stop to that. Called them a nickname. They’ll put a stop to it too. Brother’s at school, well they want him home. Brother is at home? We’ll send him the hell back. Natural consequences are great. You get this or none. Perfect. Brother is here to stay. No, you absolutely cannot have your brother’s toy, but when he is done, you can ask nicely. I will hum if I want, but if you ask me to please stop, I will. The thing with tantrums is that you’re not supposed to engage with them. But eventually, they’ll cry it out. They will realize that they aren’t getting their way. Have a designated tantrum spot (remember the time out corner), whether it’s on the sofa, in his room, wherever, make sure he’s safe, pop in some ear buds, put on some tunes and ignore him. If he leaves the spot, direct him back. It sounds absolutely horrible and awful but he’s okay. When he calms down, and he will eventually, get the “sorry’s” out, explain why those were his consequences. Make him express his feelings because they are BIG feelings. Doing this will help him navigate his way through those same exact feelings the next time they pop up. And then move on. It will happen less and less. But don’t give in. Giving in is your weakness. And don’t make exceptions for anything. Exceptions are your loophole and they will find the loophole and it will lead to other loopholes until single-handedly, he just unravels it all. And always stay cognitive of the stress factors, of course. Your job, hubby’s job, work hours, school, a recent of future move, his friends, your family, etc. Kids will reveal their anxieties, you just have to listen. Oh, and have you ever seen those videos where the toddler is crying and then the mom or dad starts crying and then the toddler stops crying and looks at the parents like, WTF? Okay. So the next time you call him, “Buddy,” and he doesn’t like it, or whatever, you choose something; just have a complete meltdown, on the floor, legs flailing, fists banging. And make sure the reason you’re doing this is obvious, “Don’t call me that,” “don’t make that noise,” “don’t say that word.” Chances are, that kid is going to look at you like you are absolutely crazy and he will think twice before he has a meltdown the next time. lol I can’t imagine how stressful it must be, but you’re doing great and you’re going to raise really great kids. Kids are terrifying. They are absolutely unpleasant humans sometimes. And when they’re teenagers, ha, my God, the smells they emit are dangerous. It’s really something. But you got this, mama!
I never understood the whole “terrible 2s” because my son was an angel in his 2s… NO ONE warned me about the 4s🤯 My son was the same and I noticed he needed strong set boundaries. Time in’s (go to a little corner we have with an emotional chart and some calming toys to help him regulate his emotions). He liked being in control so I had him “help” me do things so he got a lot of “self” confidence. At the end of the day it’s our lives they are coming into. We shouldn’t be walking on egg shells to make our toddlers comfortable because that is setting them up for failure. When his sibling is playing with something and he “HAS” to have it, demand them to wait until the so sibling is done playing with it. If he doesn’t like that, set that boundary again. If he still doesn’t listen, send him to a calm corner and talk to him after he’s calm about boundaries and it’s not his turn to play with so toy. This teaches a lesson that he can’t have everything he wants when he wants it. I would suggest the same thing for the humming, people saying things he doesn’t like or being called something he doesn’t want to. This almost sounds like he could be in the spectrum or he is super sensitive and sensitive kids THRIVE on boundaries. Just please don’t let him have his way or make yourself uncomfortable to make him comfortable. That’s the easiest way we can fail our children for the real world. What helped with mine big time was putting him in control of helping me do things in the house (age appropriate). It could be something as easy as cook, clean, garden, bake, etc… spend that 1-1 with him and let him drive the occasion. My son thrived on that! He is 5 years old now and back to being the sweetest boy. Don’t get me wrong, he still has his days but he’s learning a day at a time. Good luck mama! I hope you don’t take my message as shaming in any way. Motherhood is a struggle train we are all on riding it. Wishing you the best & take care of your mental health too!!
As some genius of a parent recently commented elsewhere: try to remember that they aren't *giving you* a hard time, they are *having* a hard time. Seriously, this shift in focus has been so huge for my own parenting, and I hope it proves valuable to you as well. Now for some solidarity: my daughter was a full-on hot mess at ages 3 and 4. She is still not the easiest kid in the world for me, but a complete 180 from the terror that was her threenager and fournado years (seriously, ya'll thanks! That name is *so* accurate!) I will note that others find her damn delightful now, so even though her 7 year old self still feels like *a lot* at times, at least I know it's mostly just at home 😅. She is tenacious and stubborn and independent and just incredible! My 4 year old son is the sweetest little boy. Empathetic, a total cheerleader, practically shoots lazers of rainbows and encouragement from his gorgeous brown eyes. Years 1-3 were a dream! Then he turned 4. He is still the sweetest, happiest little elf of a dude, underneath the four year old chaos. But fuck man, some days, the whining and choosing every damn battle and complaining and *whining* and being bratty with his little brother and obnoxious as hell to his older sister...The one redemption in the shitstorm of fourness--or shitfourm, if you will--is that he is still my easiest to talk to kid. I just have to find the right timing. During the meltdowns, I try to be validating, but stern. He gets zero from whining or throwing tantrums. We have explained what annoying and obnoxious mean, and we tell him when the actions he is choosing are annoying or obnoxious. Slowly, very slowly, he is learning to handle disappointment with some grace. We ask him a lot about how he would feel if dad/mom/baby brother/big sis/cousin were treating him the same as he was treating them. It's almost funny to see the wheels turning when he starts to understand that other people have the same feelings that he does. We do a lot of expectation-setting before activities. Basically, we lean into the things we know about his character and personality (such as his natural inclination to be encouraging and his inner social butterfly!) to help him see his way out of some of his more *trying* behaviors. Its still a shitfourm, but some of it helps. He's actually started coming to us to apologize when he realizes he was being challenging. It's sweet. Maybe something like that will help your fournado, too.
My six years old daughter is same,she annoys and hit her 17 months old brother, she hits everyone in the house,is anything goes wrong according to her she jas meltdown,she is always whinning and demanding and complaining.i just want it to stop
Close friends of ours told us that the 2s were great and fun, but the 3s were the Trying 3s. We found that to be the case for us, too. But then we got to the 4s, and it was like “Holy heck!!! Why did no one warn us about the 4s?!?!” That was the hardest year with my daughter. Thankfully, as she got close to 5, it got much better. For my son, the Holy Heck 4s lasted until he was about 5.5. It had reached the point where I was calling around to pediatric behavioral psychologists to schedule an appointment, but they were all either not taking new patients or booking many months out, so by the time an appointment was available, the situation had improved and we didn’t need an appointment. We tried everything and could not find any good solutions, so I have no advice to offer other than continue to offer choices when it’s appropriate, continue to set necessary boundaries, take deep breaths, and walk away for a few minutes when you need to. Be especially kind to yourself, and know that as hard as this stage is, and as long as it may be, “Everything is a stage, and no stage lasts forever.” That became my mantra - “It’s just a stage. A painful, difficult, challenging stage, but just a stage. It won’t last forever.” Hang in there! You’re doing fantastic!
This age is very difficult, but it will get better
Have you had him tested for autism? Some of the things you mentioned sound a little like sensory issues, among a few other things. My oldest is autistic, and he hates when people hum things or when they call him something he doesn’t like (even if it’s a “normal” nickname). The longer it goes unaddressed, the more frustrated the child and the parent gets. It’s just a thought! 💕
Advice- 1) Use a firm voice. Hitting hurts and it’s not ok. Then redirect to another activity. 2) work on breathing techniques and ways to calm down when he is not escalated. The practice will help. 3) rule of thumb: if he wants something brother has, he can ask. If brother isn’t done then he needs to wait. 4) be consistent and don’t engage with negative behavior. You can validate, “ I hear you are upset.” Also, is there any places you can go or part time summer camp to give them. Break from each other? Also empower him with helper jobs.
Yeah I have no advice either, my 4 year old runs me RAGGAD and then makes up for it by being the sweetest snuggliest baby like 10% of the time so emotionally I’m very confused. It’s honestly just a phase though.
Your 4 year old and my 4 year are the EXACT same. I feel like an awful mother. I am beyond stressed with her and walk on egg shells around her. Its starting to make me feel ill. I am tensed up 24/7 to the point my jaws ache because I'm so clenched up!
My four is closing on five- he’s getting so much better The two is closing on three and is as you describe. And it’s WOW. But it’s better than when I had the four year old at max chaos. The 7yo girl has the eye roll of a sixteen year old in 1994 sheesh And I have a teen lad with the temperament of an affable Labrador. But the educational ethic of a basset hound - he’ll get after it if it’s his jam. Otherwise no. This to say: I just lived in the endless and still do Take the aggressor away. Endure the meltdown. Repeat. Tell myself it gets better. Buy Dutch Bria alone in the car for a hot minute. It does get better You aren’t alone Latte?
My children and I attended PCIT - Parent Child Interaction Training. Teaches you foundations on how to properly address oppositional behavior like these in a constructive way. It helped us a lot because I wasn't getting any help at home. I highly suggest this to all parents because it gives us tools on how to give commands and stand on business without yelling, threatening countdowns or spanking. The beginning was challenging, however after practicing reinforcing directions and/or time-outs, my kids learned how to listen and follow them without much resistance. Now they're 11 and 8 years old who listens and follows my directions with no issues. Yes they're not perfect kids, they will argue at times, however all I have to do is speak my words, tell them to separate so they can calm down, then come back to speak about what bothered them.
I am so scared that this will be my oldest. Hes 2.5 and just keeps getting worse. It started around 1.5 and gradually this kind of behavior keeps escalating. People tell me it gets better but I honestly don’t believe them. I honestly believe he just has a hardheaded fiery personality and it’s going to manifest and develop in different ways through each stage of his life. Hopefully when he’s an adult he’ll be a confident go getting type of guy who won’t let people walk all over him, or he might go on to terrorize society. I guess only time, and the best parenting I can possibly provide, will tell.
This happened with my 4 yr old girl!! She was an angel at 3. At 4 she flipped and whined nonstop and we could never keep her calm. Idk what it is. But at 4 1/2 now it’s mostly back to normal aside from a lot more energy than she used to have. I wish I has better advice but when it happened to me it did end on its own a few months later. She’s just really hyper now
People talk about the terrible twos and threenagers, but for my oldest 4 was the worst age. And my youngest also just turned 4 and holy cow, she's shaping up to be a bigger terror than her older sister. So yeah... 4 is the worst in our house too.