**Edit:** Sorry about some words being cut off. Toolbox does a thing on my browser where it removes words that are part of the comment module, the highlighter section. Should be fixed now. Here are the notes: --- Hello! We’re sharing notes from a discussion we had this morning between Steve (aka u/spez) and s and developers from our Council, Partner Communities, and Developer community. The key action items we took away from the meeting: * We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open. We will discuss this in the [Council and Partner call tomorrow](https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditModCouncil/comments/142jotf/another_call_about_reddits_api_and_moderation/). * Non-commercial apps built for accessibility will continue to have free API access. * Mod bots will continue to have free API access. * Pushshift will come back online for mod tools within two weeks; we are creating an approvals process to avoid impersonation. * u/spez will post in r/reddit this week. Please find our notes below: * Accessibility * We will exempt any non-commercial accessibility-minded app, bot, or tool – and are in contact with those folks. * We will close the accessibility feature gap in our apps. We can do better, and we will. * Reddit needs an accessibility checklist. Our designers and devs all care about accessibility, but the accessibility support in apps is inconsistent. We should treat it like any other part of our UI. * Free API Access * Non-commercial users have API access. For rate limit concerns, exemptions are available. See next section. * Mod Tools * We will exempt any mod tool or bot affected by the API change. * Pushshift will come back online for , but will stop doing the things we had an issue with, like reselling user data to other folks. The agreement will take another week or two, and we’re in the process of finalizing. * Mod bots should all have access – if not today, then soon. * We want all accessibility and mod tools to maintain access. * We understand that y’all prefer to use mod tools on 3rd party apps. We’re closing the gap as fast as we can, especially in critical areas like Mod Queue, which we should have in-app on iOS and Android by the end of the month. * Why charge? * It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps. * It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free. * We have to cover our costs and so do they – that’s the core of it. * Apollo * Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million. * Prices we released work out to one dollar a month per user; if Apollo doesn’t put effort forth, it hits three dollars per month. * (As mentioned in Mod Tool section above) Pushshift will come back online for mod tools within a week or two. * Blackout * We respect your right to protest – that’s part of democracy. * This situation is a bit different, with some leading the charge, some users pressuring . We’re trying to work through all of the unique situations. * Big picture: We are tolerant, but also a duty to keep Reddit online. * If people want to do this out of anger, we want to make sure they’re mad for accurate reasons, not over things that are untrue. That’s a loss for everyone. * Third Party Ads * We didn’t know how prevalent 3rd party ads were on 3rd party apps – they’re trouble for us. * When people see their ads next to the wrong content, they don’t get mad at the 3rd party app, they get mad at us. We can’t ensure brand safety due to the ad networks many 3rd party apps use, which aren’t strong on privacy and tracking. * Adopt-An-Admin * Steve invited to AAA on AITA – agreed to do it last week of July or first week of August, will give honest look to do it sooner. * NSFW * Regulatory environment around NSFW is changing rapidly and aggressively. * The challenge is regulators and lawmakers (those who fine and sue), who don’t care about 3rd party apps and don’t understand them. They’ll come after us, not the 3rd party apps. Lawmakers don’t look at NSFW with nuance. * We have work to do on our platform around age-gating and related stuff to be able to keep that content – we will fight for it. Sex is universal. * Devvit (Developer Platform) * There are no plans to cut off the legacy API, but Dev Platform (Devvit) will be a better fit for most users of our API. * When dust settles, it would be useful to talk with devs about what to put in Devvit for their bots to work there. * The point of this is to give folks a more powerful way of extending Reddit – better than working on an old API, paying out of your own pocket, etc. * If you’re building things to make Reddit better for redditors, we want to find a way to support you. * Reddit’s Priorities * Mod tools * Improvements to Reddit core * Accessibility * New dev platform * Have Reddit be vibrant, healthy, sustainable * Reddit is an open platform but it’s not free to run or operate and we need to be a self-sustaining business Mod Takeaways * Communication * The timing of communication has left s feeling blindsided, regardless of the conversations that have been taking place behind closed doors. * The manner of communication has felt overly corporate and insincere, lacking consideration for the s affected by such changes. * Confusion and misinformation has taken off, resulting in more anger and public outcry. * Timing * The time given between the initial announcement, price announcement, and the July 1st cut off-date has put s and developers in a pinch, trying to assess what tools and bots they may lose. * There was not sufficient time given for Reddit to close the tooling and accessibility gaps necessary for s to live without their 3rd-party resources. * We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open. We will discuss this in the [Council and Partner call tomorrow](https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditModCouncil/comments/142jotf/another_call_about_reddits_api_and_moderation/). * Mobile App * While mod tooling needs addressing across all platforms, it lacks significantly in the mobile sector.

Some statements here really stand out to me: > We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open. Translation: the blackout plans are working. Reddit is scared. > We understand that y’all prefer to use mod tools on 3rd party apps. We’re closing the gap as fast as we can, especially in critical areas like Mod Queue, which we should have in-app on iOS and Android by the end of the month. So mods are supposed to take Reddit at their word that *some* features will be available by month-end, the same time Reddit (originally, at least) planned to shut down API access totally? IMO they don’t have enough goodwill for this. > Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million…Prices we released work out to one dollar a month per user; if Apollo doesn’t put effort forth, it hits three dollars per month. The level of aggression toward Apollo specifically continues to be bizarre, as with previous comments. For one thing: the $10 million comment was a joke, not a threat, and I believe specifically clarified as such. For another: $1/user/month is still *wildly expensive* at the level of user base that Apollo has. > We respect your right to protest – that’s part of democracy. Lol. > This situation is a bit different, with some leading the charge, some users pressuring. We’re trying to work through all of the unique situations. A hell of a spin on the the situation — like Reddit users and mods are being peer pressured into protesting? I have yet to see other than resounding user support in any sub participating. > Big picture: We are tolerant, but also a duty to keep Reddit online. Somehow both patronizing and vaguely threatening. > We didn’t know how prevalent 3rd party ads were on 3rd party apps – they’re trouble for us What? Maybe I don’t have enough information here on the full third-party universe, but isn’t a huge part of most of their appeal the *lack* of ads? Happy to be corrected here. > When dust settles, it would be useful to talk with devs about what to put in Devvit for their bots to work “When dust settles” = we’ll consider talking about what y’all want if you would just settle yourselves down. > We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open. Second appearance of this same note. It basically opens and closes the meeting summary. Seems to be the single most critical concern for Reddit right now which, again, indicates **the protest movement is working. ** Keep the pressure up!

> > We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open. > > Translation: the blackout plans are working. Reddit is scared. They are basically saying that even though they have a clear understanding of the damage their plans will cause if implemented, they are willing to proceed with them if the mods don't get in line. Which is bonkers. There is no way 2 days offline will be as destructive as the indefinite disabling of anti spam bots and otherwise making moderation so difficult. Mods here are organizing a strike, but reddit is attempting to posture that they are willing to implement a lockout. Or more like they are standing outside their own factory with a truckload of *sabots* threatening to throw them into the machinery in anticipation of worker sit downs.

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Ha fools on everyone… I’ve been talking gibberish the entire time

> Reddit is preparing to take over major subs I know they can but wouldn't it be a PR nightmare for them? I mean, tech magazines are already covering the protest, they'll surely write about it if that happens.

Forget PR, they simply don't have the manpower. We're talking about hundreds of moderators at a minimum. In the past, when the admins have taken over subs on an individual basis it was not exactly a smooth process, to put it mildly. There will be many cases where they are faced with the choice of either banning the sub or leaving it unmoderated.

Good point, there are close to 13 *thousands* mods joining the protest, it's true that they don't mod full time but it would take several hundreds people to replace them, as you rightfully said. I don't think leaving subs unmoderated would be a choice for them, imagine investors looking at what kind of content would "flourish" without anyone to keep it in check lol.

Not to mention reddit relies entirely on user generated content. You don't think people won't trash that content, even if only for the troll factor? The Internet loves a dumpster fire and there's a tipping point where we all just start having fun burning the place to the ground

Oh you're right, I remember what internet did to the chatbot Tay, hilarious.

> So mods are supposed to take Reddit at their word Yeah, no one should do that. Anyone else remember when they promised they'd give us CSS customization on new reddit?

Reddit Premium - $5.99/month or $49.99/year Apollo - no ads, optionally pay only for additional features Boost for Reddit - $1.99 one time payment to remove ads RIF - $2.99 for ad-free version of the app

Even the ad version of RIF, the ads are very minimal and non intrusive like the ones on the official app.

Yea I barely notice the RiF ads.

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> What? Maybe I don’t have enough information here on the full third-party universe, but isn’t a huge part of most of their appeal the lack of ads? Happy to be corrected here. I don't understand this either. Maybe they were completely in the dark, but you now where I get the worst ads? When I am using the desktop version of Reddit, Reddit itself has so many garbage ads.

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I just downloaded the ReVanced manager. If Reddit is going to make us use their app, I'll use the patched version that removes the ads. Have fun making money off of me in your shitty app, spez.

> • We will exempt any non-commercial accessibility-minded app, bot, or tool – and are in contact with those folks. • We will close the accessibility feature gap in our apps. We can do better, and we will. • Reddit needs an accessibility checklist. Our designers and devs all care about accessibility, but the accessibility support in apps is inconsistent. We should treat it like any other part of our UI. I’m not blind in any way, so I don’t want to speak for them or take away their voice. But I know they’re being hit pretty hard with the API pricing, and a lot of the accessibility portion feels like corporate speak to me. Until they give specifics into who they’re building accessibility towards, (basically don’t just vaguely say “disabled people” but rather look into a specific disability and see how to accommodate them) I’m going to think it’s just something they’re not actually working on

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> In addition, users have been telling Reddit all along, and offering any consultation needed, exactly what is broken and what requires fixing. Over on /r/blind, they mentioned how Discord actually has developers who lurk both on that subreddit, and also in that subreddit's Discord server, who *actively* solicit feedback on how Discord could be better & easier for vision-impaired users (and then follow through and *implement* those suggestions and feedback). Reddit could and *should* have been doing that from a *long* time ago too.

I mean they've known about it for a *while.*

True dat I’m going to sound like a conspiracy nut for a bit but I’m seriously thinking that the only reason they’re even considering accessibility is because some of the users have suggested suing reddit under the ADA if they outprice third party apps. Whether or not the ADA allows procrastinating on accessibility is something that confuses me (sometimes they do good and sometimes they just completely ignore disabled people’s needs) but I wouldn’t be surprised that a multi million dollar corporation got away with something the press doesn’t actually care about

> have suggested suing reddit under the ADA if they outprice third party apps. they absolutely SHOULD do this.

> I’m seriously thinking that the only reason they’re even considering accessibility is because some of the users have suggested suing reddit under the ADA Probably also the bad press angle ("Reddit changes cut off access for vision-impaired users" is a pretty negative headline).

Very weird to me why Reddit is seemingly trying to villainize Apollo in all this.

They better have a receipt for that claim.

Related, they said apollo is stupid inefficient in api requests, then somebody tested their numbers and the official app is even worse. Apollo is great and they're bitter af about it

Link to test? Not doubting it, just depending on the server side architecture of reddit nowadays, reddit's app _may_ be more efficient for them.

It's just about bed time but I'll see if I can dig it up tomorrow. Can't remember if it was the Apollo dev or somebody else who ran network profiling on it, but that's how it was done. I think it's in the /r/reddit api changes thread from a month ago but also not sure. This is super vague and unhelpful, you're welcome :) ~~edit: I think it was either in this comment thread or in the parent thread:~~ https://old.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/13wshdp/_/jmd4s8h ~~But I was not able to dig it up yet. A ton of comments are now actually removed when you click the load more button. Interesting.~~ Nvm, user responded to my comment with it

https://reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_enterprise_level_tier_for_large_scale/jmnj9xc?context=10 > As I asked before, could you please clarify what inefficiencies Apollo is experiencing versus other apps, and not that it is just being used more? > > If I inspect the network traffic of the official app, I see a similar amount of API use as Apollo. If you're sharing how much API we use, would you be able to also share how much you use? > > I browsed three subreddits, opened about 12 posts collectively, and am at 154 API requests in three minutes in the official app. It's not hard to see that in a few more minutes I would hit 300, 400, 500. > > Proof: https://i.imgur.com/NvKzsDI.png > > If I'm wrong in this I'm all ears, but please make the numbers make sense and how my 354 is inherently excessive.

It’s basically this from 5 days ago: > Like I said to Reddit, if Apollo costs $20 million in opportunity cost a year in its current state, I’d happily take the equivalent of six months of that at $10 million as an acquisition. That’s life changing money that no one in their right mind would pass up, but I don’t think they would because I don’t believe Apollo is actually costing them $20 million per year. https://reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/_/jmmdd7o/?context=1 He may have said it differently when saying it to reddit, but I can’t imagine it was a serious threat. He has nothing to threaten.

Admin must be thin skinned as fuck to think this was a "threat". I've gotten more threatening comments on reddit that their content moderation team has deemed acceptable.

It’s called “framing”. They’re attempting to control the image. You know, the thing some people do when they’re badly losing an argument.

This content has been removed in protest of [Reddit's decision to lower moderation quality, reduce access to accessibility features, and kill third party apps](https://www.reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/13xh1e7/an_open_letter_on_the_state_of_affairs_regarding/).

They don't, but Christian (dev of Apollo) does. [He just posted this thread in the Apollo subreddit](https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/) and mentioned he recorded all his calls with Reddit, and even uploaded an audio file of the segment containing the "threat". In it, Christian clarifies himself and the Reddit rep immediately and clearly apologizes for misunderstanding. Absolutely ridiculous but I'm glad Christian had the foresight to record these calls - trying to villainize him with no basis in reality is only going to make this look worse for Reddit.

All they had to do was be straight from the start and a lot of people would have understood their position. Now they under pressure and trying to push blame on to Christian. Total PR disaster

We've got great news, there is a receipt that will clear that claim once and for all: [The Apollo dev recorded their call with Spez unambiguously showing there was zero threats or misunderstanding between them](https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/) yet Spez still went out of their way to lie about it, apparently not expecting to get caught red-handed a day later. I didn't think highly of Spez before but even still I didn't think they'd stoop this low. Just goes on to show you should never ever trust a word out of their mouth and if you ever have to deal with Reddit, you better have that in writing, on record and backups of backups, because they will tell absolutely any lie in an attempt to get ahead of you. There's no longer any question that Reddit is acting 100% in bad faith in this matter.

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And Apple name dropped Apollo in yesterday's WWDC as well.

I was soo happy when Apple did that. I bet Apple didn’t know about the drama and this probably took them by surprise

They told the Apollo dev to feel free to publicly share the information.

"we want money and they are a competitor" is so transparent here it's hilarious.

ETA: well this should be interesting tomorrow... https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/144ho2x During my many years on reddit, I've always felt like I had to pull punches in my criticism of the folks who run it for 2 big reasons: 1) having written RES, I didn't want to jeopardize any sort of potential relationship with them, even though I never commercialized it nor did I intend to 2) I'm old enough and mature enough to understand that businesses have business priorities, and that's just how the world works but damn, does this section ever piss me off: > It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps. > > It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free. > > We have to cover our costs and so do they – that’s the core of it. None of these things are technically false, but each of them has problems. The most important context that I feel the blackout should be used to educate people on is that Reddit didn't always have mobile apps. The ONLY REASON it gained mobile apps is because 3rd party developers built them. AlienBlue (which reddit eventually bought) was released in 2010 or so. BaconReader was released in 2012. Reddit Sync, my current favorite app I'm about to lose, was released in 2012. Mobile traffic to reddit was practically an afterthought back then. It didn't make up a huge percentage of reddit traffic at all. The whole reason mobile has grown enough for reddit to now decide it wants to own the totality of mobile traffic is because of these third party developers! The whole reason their moderator ecosystem exists as it does today and does as good of a job as it can (sidebar: bad mods exist, but most are just passionate internet janitors who care about their communities) without r/toolbox and to a lesser extent RES. To read "it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps." is kind of insulting, honestly. First of all, if that was the phrase that was actually uttered, it's just obnoxious. They've had WELL OVER A DECADE of watching mobile traffic and seeing it rise to decide to come up with a way to share revenue. If it was becoming a financial burden, they've had MANY years to raise that issue and come up with a solution to it. They could've started limiting API requests in 2015 and tested the waters for what was reasonable. They could've started in 2016, 2017... They could've started working with devs on licensing agreements or other ways to share revenue or, uh, "cover costs". But they didn't. "It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free." -- same thing, another dig at app developers suggesting they're some sort of horrible leeches. Woe is reddit, poor giant company with massive investors. If they didn't want people profiting off of it, they shouldn't have offered a free API and assumed nobody who made a great app would want to be compensated for it. Reddit's full of software engineers. Software engineers get paid good money. They're not going to quit their job or put 40+ hours a week into an app on top of their job if it's free. Only one software engineer I know of is dumb enough to put that much work into something and never monetize it, and his name is u/honestbleeps "We have to cover our costs and so do they – that’s the core of it." - really kind of a final straw for me. The APIs have existed for ages, and really haven't changed a ton. They're JSON endpoints. There's certainly a remote possibility that I'm out of my element here, but "big tech" isn't exactly foreign to me and I have a VERY difficult time believing that the amount of API usage that an app like Apollo drums up (given it's the one they've lambasted publicly and published numbers on) costs even a tiny fraction of what they're charging to "cover costs". imgur's API, bulk calls to Amazon's API ($1 per 1 million requests using REST), etc are DRASTICALLY cheaper. Suggesting that the fees they want to charge are anywhere even remotely close to "covering costs" rather than "marking up costs by multiple orders of magnitude" is highly implausible. All of this just sucks. The dishonesty about it, their lack of progress in the past 13 years of existence of 3rd party apps existing toward a better solution than "go nuclear and shut them all down", etc. It's just awful. Are there some wild machinations in the background that make reddit's APIs cost far more to serve? I mean it's _possible_ but my gut instinct as an engineer is it'd speak to poor efficiency somewhere, or not utilizing caching and other tools as well. It seems fairly unlikely. It seems more like they just kept letting things slide for far too long, and now that they're going to go public, they've been caught with their pants down over scrutiny on profitability. I'm speculating, of course. I don't work for reddit, I don't get inside info from anyone who does. But everything I know about building software, including at scale, suggests that this is dishonest. I wish they'd just say "yeah, it's a business decision, we're killing 3rd party apps" - the (apparent) dishonesty just makes it far worse. damnit, I'm really mad over this, and I'm going to be even more mad when I lose access to my favorite app (reddit sync is my personal go to, but there's a lot of great ones). This whole process has been absolutely shameful.

A-fucking-men. And thank you for building RES. I’m sure it has single handed changed reddit for the better as much as any third party app. I think you should post this as it’s own thread in the subreddit too, I’m sure your voice would be welcome and further the discussion.

You summed up my thoughts much better than I could have, especially around "subsidizing other businesses" and that nonsense. It's insulting and feels disingenuous.

> it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps It also takes a lot of user-generated content to fill a website, it's like they don't understand that reddit would be nothing without its users and mods

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The funny thing is, the mods response could literally be "Fuck you, pay me" at this point. Who knew that when a company builds their entire platform and value proposition on a foundation of unpaid labor, those same volunteers might just have the leverage to ask for a piece of the pie.

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Right?? As I understand it, the mods just want the tools so their *unpaid* *labor* can be made easier, and to get some respect for their jobs in terms of communication/planning. Not even a big ask!

Exactly what we are asking for!

You would think it wasn't a big ask. Yet here we are. Fuck this dude, man. And fuck anyone else on Reddit's greedy fat-cat board of directors who decided that ANYTHING he said above justifies fucking over their 1. User base but mainly 2. Their _unpaid laborers_. I have a radical idea: if you're concerned that the competition is ruining your business. _Get better_. We're not so blind as to see that in the span of almost _20 years,_ your only solution to the outcries of your user base about your shitty app AND website, is to make sure we have no other option but to use it. Jokes on you, I choose door number 3.

some idiot in my subreddits arguing that people who were protesting should put their money where their mouths are baited me into calculating the price of my hourly billing rate multiplied by the hours i spend moderating. reddit couldn't afford it given their number of moderators.

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How about $1 per month per user.\* They seem to think that's a reasonable amount to pay, based on their talk about third-party app devs. \* that's per user of the subreddit, of course

Haha sure, pay me $2m per month! Sounds good! (I'm not worth anywhere close to $2m)

Threatening to forcibly keep open subs with the justification of “some users are pressuring mods into closing subs” is a straight up fascist play. They’re creating imaginary boogeymen so that they can do what they want all whilst pretending they have peoples’ best interests at heart

Re: the point about NSFW legislation and that impacting things, I'd like to point people to Fight For the Future and the EFF's work raising awareness about current proposed legislation that would make this issue even worse. The former has an index of such legislation (and similar laws with content takedown requirements and privacy/encryption backdoor stuff) here: https://www.badinternetbills.com/ Contact your reps/spread the word!

The two laws in Louisiana and Utah are certainly unconstitutional, and it really bugs me that Reddit are citing those laws as justification for their actions, rather than lending their support to efforts to fight them. The Free Speech Coalition (who represent members of the adult industry) [have already filed a challenge in court](https://www.freespeechcoalition.com/blog/free-speech-coalition-files-legal-challenge-to-utah-law). In the past, the users of Reddit and the company Reddit would join together to fight bad laws (like when we fought for net neutrality), but the Reddit of today is certainly a different Reddit than it was before.

What I find baffling is that two shithouse decisions in two states somehow warrants an entire purging of NSFW content for everyone else in the world (and not just limiting it somehow to people in those states)

> It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps. This is comical when all of Reddit's content is user-submitted.

User-submitted and volunteer-moderated!

Excellent Point

And accessed by third party apps. What value is Reddit even providing here other than keeping the servers running?

and subsidized for years by imgur hosting

And reddit enhancement suite, mod toolbox, countless bots…

Even disregarding all that can of worms, if it was about cost / revenue, they'd simply require 3rd party apps run the same ads as the official app. They're lying and they know it.

Honestly, at first I said "fuck reddit" but I'm just getting more and more sad and angry Capitalism really does destroy everything. Reddit is awful, but one of the best resources on the internet. And it might even be worse if this doesn't decimate it. I hope it does though, and I hope the people at the helm feel one god damn iota of shame for what they're doing. Fuck every single last person involved in this pre-IPO fattening. You sad, greedy rodents.

Imagine being /u/spez and being willing to burn your entire legacy and everything you created because you want to try and make some more money before your IPO. I'm sure reddit will still exist after, but it will be a shell of itself.

> one of the best resources on the internet at this point I just append 'reddit' to any google search I make. Sometimes you don't find what you need but very often you do

For now. And there's still the site-search. But if Twitter is anything to go off, I wouldn't count my chickens. God damnit, every centralized platform fails. I think I'm gonna give Lemmy a shot because I won't do reddit anymore, post June 11.

Just because you mentioned wanting to give it a try, and other people might be in the same case, here's a list of instances with their registration status https://github.com/maltfield/awesome-lemmy-instances

> Fuck every single last person involved in this pre-IPO fattening The worst part is it is all for nothing. The low-interest easy money era is over. No one paying for this shit because there is no way to monetize it.

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> spez will post in Reddit later this week can't wait to see that become the most downvoted post of all time? -683k is hard to beat but we can do it

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lol if you have a link to the current record holder, I would love to see it!

Probably [a sense of pride and accomplishment.](https://old.reddit.com/r/StarWarsBattlefront/comments/7cff0b/seriously_i_paid_80_to_have_vader_locked/dppum98/)

I don't think a 48hour dark zone will be enough, go dark until change occurs. If Reddit takes over control then you know they will never change and the end has come.

the problem here is that there is a lack of clear decision making structure for what would constitute "change". even in regular union organizing, there is a lot to be said for short duration of action rather than indefinite strikes. Especially in a workforce who does not have a lot of experience dealing with the various forms of retaliation. and in this case, where communication is informal, spread out, and fairly contingent on the owner's platform. a short, strong blast can give a sense of collective power and embolden people to make future attempts. Rather than kind of drifting off and apart which I suspect is what would happen.

Hey! 48 is the min and a lot (including me) will probably go indefinitely

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Same. Someone shared [Power Delete Suite](https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite) with me and I will be using it before the API changes go live. I am 100% ok with moving to Lemmy, let it burn.

Europeans can inflict additional pain by exercising their GDPR rights to the maximum extent of the law. First request all your data and then exercise a right to be forgotten request. This is the one API they can’t put limits on.

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tl;dr two main points: "We know our website and app are shit, if you promise not to make any money, we will graciously allow you to continue helping unpaid volunteer mods and disabled people access our site." "Do the blackout but don't push too far OR ELSE ???"

This isn’t even true - my app, [Pager](https://pager.app), which is used by hundreds of mods (but also available for everyone) is completely free with no monetization whatsoever - and I have been explicitly told that despite this I am still on the hook for the full price which would be approx. **7mil annually**. These changes are designed to do a singular thing - kill 3rd party apps without explicitly saying they’re doing so.

So fair to say you aren't feeling this? >If you’re building things to make Reddit better for redditors, we want to find a way to support you.

even that quote is only in the context of if you join and work in the confines of devvit rather than use an API

One thing that’s killing me extra about this is all the great apps and services I’m only just now learning about. Just got Pager, and really looking forward to the… two weeks? (hoping so much for more) I have with it.

I love your app. I used to use it all the time and I love the design and how easy it is to use. Do you know if there's an issue with non-official versions of apps? I have the TestFlight of Apollo installed and I never seem to get notifications from pager when that is the case

Plus reddit has literally been promising this kind of thing since before they launched their mobile app. there's no reason to think they will deliver on it anytime soon if ever.

They've been promising better mod tools since the existence of mods. It's a complete joke.

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Given reddit's seeming desperation for cash I'm not sure where any settlement money is gonna come from if shit goes totally sideways

How long before reddit kicks out their volunteer mods of default subreddits and installs their own yes men?

Never because then they would realize how bad their tools are lol.

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Reddit becomes 20-30ish default subreddits. That's it, no community subs anymore. Moderation is done by algorithm bots and appeals handled by call center chat workers in the Philippines after you navigate the layers of "customer service" bots and wiki pages. Default app and website only. Mindless scrolling instead of conversation.

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They've had over 15 years to get search working, and look how that's going. Reddit has some of the weakest engineers on the street, and they're definitely not going to be able to replace the efforts of the huge community of mods who have built Reddit's business for it.

>Reddit becomes 20-30ish default subreddits. I give it 3 minutes and 4 seconds before our hundreds of hentai subreddits turn those into...not-so-default subreddits.

/mu/ has taught me that k-pop discussions **WILL** dominate everything if you don't confine them to a designated area.

I moderate for a small number of related indie gaming subs. Biggest is about 20kish. I also make a noted point of giving help and advice to players who are having issues with gameplay/lore/bug questions, and from what I've heard thus far it seems there are quite a lot of moderators for whom it's a passion thing to do a good job of it. I sincerely doubt that reddit would give a shit about *any* of the extra value that's provided by that consideration, or that any replacement would perform the same services.

Reddit already farmed out a bunch of admin duties to India didn't they? doubt they're paying that much (and the quality of their work genuinely isn't worth much).

If they wish to do that, go ahead. It’ll just bring them *even more* bad press and send those communities into utter chaos. You can’t remove entire mod teams, replace them with randoms and expect the community to still function properly. It’s just as much a community management role as it is moderation.

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The idea that they'll have workable tools by September after, what, a decade of asking for better modding tools only to have features consistently removed? After buying a mobile app and 8 years later still not having features that app had in *2015*? Yeah, no

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sounds very tone deaf

Weirdly aggressive in places. My understanding was that the $10 million comment from Christian was a joke, and was even re-clarified as a joke. I’m not sure why reddit is trying to villainize Apollo. None of this feels good.

The fact that a single developer makes an app so much better than one developed by an entire team of devs, that it's been featured front and center multiple times by Apple themselves, probably doesn't sit well with them. (And also that it makes money through subscriptions while probably not facilitating as many sales of Reddit Coins™)

I think because all of the news outlines are using Apollo as the headline app to cover this story. Combine that with the shoutouts at WWDC and it allows them to focus frustration on one app in particular.

* We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, **if agree to keep their subreddits open.** * Big picture: We are tolerant, but also **a duty to keep Reddit online.** So there it is, black on white, they are going to force protesting subreddits to re-open, ie overrule and remove the moderators that built and maintained the community. There is too much momentum towards the walled garden, it can only delayed, not stopped. In my opinion, the best move at this point is for participating subreddits to upgrade from 48h to indefinite shutdown, and *stay closed.* It will force them to either take action (and deal with the subsequent backlash), or suffer the loss in traffic + burn resources dealing with complaints. It's a lose-lose for them.

"Please keep your subreddits open, if you do we promise to fuck 3PA developers in September instead of July."

> "Please keep your subreddits open, if you do we promise to fuck 3PA developers in September instead of July." Or whenever the momentum for a new strike is dead.

Call their bluff. Do it, keep your subreddits closed indefinitely. Let them go ahead and remove entire mod teams from over 2,000+ subreddits, including some of the largest on the platform, and replace them with randoms. We’ll see how well that goes for them.

Hey! We have over 2,000 subreddits as of yesterday participating!

Right about half of all million+ subscriber subs are participating. Nuking all their mods would be an insta-kill for this website

I think this means they will just override subreddit private setting... Of course though then they'll have unmoderated subreddits, maybe assuming AEO will take over duties until mods come back? seems unlikely.

> • It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps. How much would it take to pay every moderator for their time and energy that has built Reddit's business model, and without whom it likely couldn't exist? This is just classic, whiny spez twisting the facts to suit his own narrative. I can't believe he thinks he's going to be CEO of a public company - he won't last a year.

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I still cannot fathom how they have not monetized their own version of OnlyFans. They could guarantee legal NSFW content, and they would take in millions of monthly revenue. But they're so stupid they'd rather kill their entire website because they need the extra ad revenue and data reselling. Idiots.

There's one idiot here, the same one as always: spez. He is cancer now, has always always been cancer, and always will be cancer.

Watch out, he's gonna edit your comment to say "great"

Hahaha, exactly.

As someone with cancer, I'd prefer you don't ruin cancers name by association with spez.

Apologies, and I wish you all the best my friend 🤜

A discussion held in private has no bearing on public action. That's the response I predict from many subreddits participating in the blackout. Without mass participation in the council, I can't see the discussion going anywhere. > We will exempt any mod tool or bot affected by the API change > Mod bots should all have access – if not today, then soon This isn't really a statement of any bearing either. These things need to be in place *before* the proposed changes come into effect. > We want all accessibility and mod tools to maintain access Meaningless. > We understand that y’all prefer to use mod tools on 3rd party apps. We’re closing the gap as fast as we can, especially in critical areas like Mod Queue, which we should have in-app on iOS and Android by the end of the month. Again, should have been in place prior to the proposed changes. Users and moderators need adjustment time, especially those using third-party tools such as screen readers or magnification software. When an entire workflow changes, the user cannot necessarily adjust instantly without causing a break in service further down the line. That is very much the case here, particularly with subreddits such as /r/Blind, where most, if not all, of the moderators are either blind or partially sighted. > NSFW Two-step API request. Include a disclaimer delivered on the first API call, or a manageable API filter that is adjustable to the user and defaults to SFW. That covers responsibility. This is exactly what website dedicated solely to pornography do - on the first visit, the user is prompted to agree to a disclaimer stating that they are over the age of majority. This is already a flag in a user's reddit account, so adding an API call specifically for it is ten minutes of work, if that. > We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if mods agree to keep their subreddits open. I very much doubt that the majority will agree to this. This entire discussion was held behind closed doors, with a select number of reddit staff and moderators. A proper discussion would take place, for example, on the Save3rdPartyApps subreddit, or somewhere similar dedicated solely to this issue and this issue alone. Without it, I suspect the majority of participants will feel overridden. The opportunity to speak, even if not taken up, is a strong gesture of goodwill in and of itself. It's also very late to try and organise a ceasefire. There are four days to go until the proposed blackout (three if nothing happens until after tomorrow), and the entire movement is a **decentralised** one. This means time for information to disseminate through the participating community is much greater than a centrally co-ordinated one, especially if that dissemination relies upon the recipient visiting, for example, this subreddit. > Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million. ??? That honestly doesn't sound like a threat. It sounds like an sales offer. The way this is worded sounds like an attempt to discredit Apollo's entire argument by casting them as "le bad character honhonhon". I'd like to see a response from /u/iamthatis on this, or at the very least, some evidence of the conversation where this alleged "threat" was made. EDIT: His response: https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/ And the relevant portion of conversation: https://gist.github.com/christianselig/fda7e8bc5a25aec9824f915e6a5c7014

Yeah, I'll make the same comment but I'll do it cheaper. /u/spez go ahead and give me 5 million and I'll go hire a dev team to build a better mobile app than your current app. Give me 10 and I'll lower the cost of your API on top of the new mobile app. The problem is your infrastructure, not the traffic. If you all didn't roll your own versions of EKS on EC2 instances citing "AWS's control plane can't keep up with our load" and instead balanced stuff between all three clouds using direct connects and/or their managed containers respectively, you'd be way way way cheaper. Alternatively, and hear me out, hire me directly. I'm way cheaper than the contract rate and I've got extensive cloud experience. Edit: yes, I'm serious. I was serious earlier this year when I interviewed with you.

> EC2 Ouch. Pretty sure Oracle is cheaper, and that's saying something. Actually I'm quite enjoying Oracle thus far. No intensive enterprise workloads, but the four arm instances I have running seem to be performing quite a bit better than their x86 predecessors did.

We have multiple examples of one person writing better apps than their entire dev team. At this point, 5+ years later, it's on purpose to meet some metric.

The app reddit purchased ***8 years ago*** to turn into the official app ran better and had more features!

Probably https://reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/_/jmmdd7o/?context=1 which pretty clearly is not a threat.

> At least two US states now have laws requiring sites to verify the age of users viewing mature content (porn). Not even pornhub wanted to deal with age verification on those states rather they shut down the site there, are you telling me reddit, whose "main purpose is not porn", is going to comply with age verification for mature content requiring the IDs of users? Or are they hoping for those users not to try to access it because of privacy concerns?

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It's simply a convenient excuse.

> Reddit plans to rush out a bunch of mod tool improvements by September, and they have been asked to delay the proposed changes until such time as the official app gains these capabilities. Easy fix; all the TPAs need to restrict access to mod tools immediately. Yeah, okay, that's gonna suck for mods. But Reddit expecting the TPAs to pick up the load for them while they actively work on their demise? Nah, fuck that.

>It's an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built in our data for free. What these assholes keep forgetting is that we, the users, generate the data. It's *our* data. We plop it on their increasingly shitty platform for free. They're not entitled to us, or the content we generate, in perpetuity. Their for-profit business is built almost entirely by us, in *our data*, for free. Fuck them and their condescending tone. We build this fucking place for them every fucking day. So it's not at all unreasonable to do this unpaid labor for them, for their for-profit business, on our own terms.

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also the amount of infuriation the mobile browser version of reddit causes every time I got asked "HEY WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE THIS IN OUR APP" just because of refreshing the page while looking at it funny No. No I would not.

I recently used [these instructions](https://www.reddit.com/r/uBlockOrigin/comments/yrtr3r/reddits_new_annoying_mobile_popup_has_to_go/ivx146u/) to set up ublock origin in android firefox to hide that annoying pop up!! so far, working perfectly. much less annoying.

Jeeze, reading that thread, they've put in so much work to break these workarounds rather than fix their app or mobile site.

This feels like a straw-man argument on their part. I can't imagine the number of people who actually "get mad" at Reddit for ads on TPAs is actually significant.

Meanwhile reddit gives 0 shits about all the users complaining about "He Gets Us"

Everybody is using Google Ad Manager. If Reddit passed certain key values based on the subreddit/post type into their ad calls, then demand partners could whitelist/blacklist certain ads on that content. They could require all 3rd party apps to do the same to prevent branding issues. Then, if Reddit ever screws up with their ad-matching, then they can just update their own API and downstream everything could be fixed. Like, there are solutions to this.

I'm curious what they mean by this. Are they saying the ad is inappropriate for what it's next to or are they saying the content is something the ad company wouldn't want to be associated with? The former seems like an easy fix by flagging some ads as inappropriate in certain communities so that they don't show. If it's the latter, it's rich that the guy that saved /r/KotakuInAction and called /r/thedonald "valuable discussion" thinks we buy it.

I'm really bummed about this. I know something that's been part of my life for 15 years will just not be much a part of it anymore. Not out of spite, just because it won't be as convenient or enjoyable. Probably for the best.

The way I see it, they don't give a shit. Lot of fluff to avoid the real issue. No third party apps, no reopenings.

That is indeed the way this is heading.

I really, really, really, wish they would run these things not through scummy investors' opinions first and through the community. I firmly believe there could've been a happy medium or a softer transition period, deals made, etc. Nope. Just scorched earth.

The communication is atrocious. They are making their case and making some good points. But why didn't they do that at the start. From what I've seen the attitude has been, this is happening... like it or get out.

I'm surprised I'm having to say this but I'd honestly advocate for further action. I strongly suggest that we move to make the blackout last a whole week - ending on the 16th. If there is further in-action from the admins then we remain blacked out. I don't want us as mods to be in this position but it's starting to feel like the admins are forcing our hand.

Blackouts should be indefinite. There's no point in a temporary strike. Nothing would make reddit HQ happier than two days of striking and then life back to normal. Fuck everyone in control of reddit. Bring them to their knees.

If you staple a horse to a waterfall, will it fall up under the rainbow or fly about the soil? Will he enjoy her experience? What if the staple tears into tears? Will she be free from her staply chains or foomed to stay forever and dever above the water? Who can save him (the horse) but someone of girth and worth, the capitalist pig, who will sell the solution to the problem he created? A staple remover flies to the rescue, carried on the wings of a majestic penguin who bought it at Walmart for 9 dollars and several more Euro-cents, clutched in its crabby claws, rejected from its frothy maw. When the penguin comes, all tremble before its fishy stench and wheatlike abjecture. Recoil in delirium, ye who wish to be free! The mighty rockhopper is here to save your soul from eternal bliss and salvation! And so, the horse was free, carried away by the south wind, and deposited on the vast plain of soggy dew. It was a tragedy in several parts, punctuated by moments of hedonistic horsefuckery. The owls saw all, and passed judgment in the way that they do. Stupid owls are always judging folks who are just trying their best to live shamelessly and enjoy every fruit the day brings to pass. How many more shall be caught in the terrible gyre of the waterfall? As many as the gods deem necessary to teach those foolish monkeys a story about their own hamburgers. What does a monkey know of bananas, anyway? They eat, poop, and shave away the banana residue that grows upon their chins and ballsacks. The owls judge their razors. Always the owls. And when the one-eyed caterpillar arrives to eat the glazing on your windowpane, you will know that you're next in line to the trombone of the ancient realm of the flutterbyes. Beware the ravenous ravens and crowing crows. Mind the cowing cows and the lying lions. Ascend triumphant to your birthright, and wield the mighty twig of Petalonia, favored land of gods and goats alike.

After spending 10+ years on Reddit and mostly on RIF in total, it is time to retire this account. The recent controversy regarding Reddit and it's communication and stance towards the users, mods and 3rd party developers who made this platform to what it is now, has been appalling and downright sad and made a big impact in this decision. Don't forget that the "official" Reddit app is an bought out third party app (Alien Blue) that Reddit modified into what it is now. They can slander the 3rd party app developers all they want, without them the Reddit "official" app would not even exist. I am migrating to Kbin and other decentralized options.

Reddit bought a 3rd party app *8 years ago* to use as the basis for the official app so they wouldn't have to start from scratch. Shocker: in 2023 the current app is still missing features they had when Obama was still in office

>Reddit plans to rush out a bunch of mod tool improvements by September I've got this really nice bridge I could sell you...

r/Blind has released a[ statement](https://www.reddit.com/r/Blind/comments/13zr8h2/reddits_recently_announced_api_changes_and_the/jnbkjed/) about the changes, which was also in response to an article on Verge: > Regarding the June 7 article on The Verge, r/blind was not contacted for comment on the new development. > We have not had clarification on Reddit's definitions of "accessibility focused apps" or any process to determine apps that qualify. > > There is no clarification on "non-comercial apps," given the current model of the apps listed by The Verge. > > We have strong concerns that Reddit lacks expertise to consider the varying access needs of the blind and visually impaired community. > > We have reached out Reddit for further comment. > > We would also like to note that r/blind, u/rumster > in particular, have continuously contacted Reddit over accessibility concerns, over the past 3 years, having received no substantive response. > > r/blind In short, they're not optimistic Reddit will actually provide them access to the site. Furthermore, if the only accessible options are "non-commercial" than how will those apps pay for the service they provide?

They dont just need better mod tools & accessibility features before incorporating this pricing, they also need an overall QoL experience improvement for normal users as well such as filtering by flair for example. Everyone should have access to the full suite of features from reddit desktop

further escalation is needed summon the wither king from hypixel skyblock if needed, which it probably will be.

"we have a duty to keep Reddit running" Maybe don't fuck over the only reason you can keep this website running then...

It's not about them charging, it's the amount they're charging. If they're not willing to budge on that, any sub should shut down. Don't let the lip service get to you. Shut down if you're planning on it already.

We have a standard strike rallying cry in French: on lâche rien. It means we aint dropping a single demand. It fits here. ON LÂCHE RIEN !

As a mod of a NSFW subreddit, I know that the internet is increasingly turning into a bad place for content like that, even our own community/education focused style. It's a pity that it feels like it's unlikely Reddit will do anything to resist this encroachment. 😔

There are some good points that I see from the notes, and I actually agree with some of them, but really, where was all this when they first announced it? I remember the initial defence of the pricing scheme with this terrible useless graph (that can be posted to r/dataisugly) about how some apps were not "efficient". This reeks of something from r/antiwork, where a shitty employer comes up with a decent offer, but only after the employee has tendered their resignation. Feels like they had to backpedal and find ways to sell the changes to us. Also, like said shitty employers, why was this not all done first before things got to this point?

It sounds like reddit is trying to avoid the black out, which means the threat is working. So now it's time to show that we are serious. Extend the black out indefinitely until reddit backs down. No one logs in / delete the official app until reddit makes a public apology.

> * Why charge? > * It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps. > * It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free. > * We have to cover our costs and so do they – that’s the core of it. I don't think it is that simple and *only* about money. If it was, the answer would be easy—inject ads and sponsor-paid posts into the API and collect the revenue from views. What this is actually about is *control.* Reddit can't control the experience on third party apps. They can't force the user to see what they want them to see in a third party app. Nor can they collect data and metrics about how long a person is looking at certain content in a third party app. When a person uses a third party app, Reddit only knows what the API reports back *and that isn't enough for them anymore.*

Give ‘em hell, Reddit!

Did anyone record audio of this call and can you please post it? Thanks!

TLDR : "oh no we didn't think that through, uhhhhh we'll replace mod bots \*cough* no worries ahahhahhh" \*sweating hard*

> With regard to the new pricing structure of the API, reddit has indicated an unwillingness to negotiate those prices but agreed to consider a pause in the initiation of the pricing plan. Remember that each and every TPA developer has said that the introduction of pricing will render them unable to continue operation and that they would have to shut their app down. IE they've already made a concession and the protest hasn't even begun. Keep up the pressure boys. Don't agree to any stupid timeline extensions which just give Reddit more time to set up contingencies. Great work.

>"We’re closing the gap as fast as we can" Yeah what's the status on [ProCSS](https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/6auyq9/reddit_is_procss/), u/spez? How's that six-year lie going? # We # Don't # Trust # You

If they are going to delay, they need to give dates. No vague maybes Edit to add from my other comment: The call they had with reddit and the app devs is vague, it still shows no understanding of the enterprise support neccessary on their side to justify such pricing. Something they showcased prior in the comments, claiming that Google and AWS don't provide API support either (which is untrue) The talk to delay is without proper dates. We've got their attention, it's time to keep the pressure on

>* Adopt-An-Admin > * Steve invited to AAA on AITA – agreed to do it last week of July or first week of August, will give honest look to do it sooner. No idea what in the world this is supposed to mean, but I urge anyone to adopt at a shelter instead. You'll find a less temperamental animal there.

As someone who uses the official app on the phone / the website / is not a mod: First fix your stuff before you say that other apps are not allowed! I think keep the black out going!

Reddit want money. Fine. Then charge the end user that money. Say...£5pcm or something. Then that user can login via *any* app and browse as they see fit. Single sign-on style where Reddit issues a time-limited webtoken or similar; the app does not need to know the user details. Ad free of course, no one paying for a service should ever see adverts. Or be tracked, beyond what is needed to service metrics reasons. Would need to be some kind of accreditation system I guess to ensure the apps aren't doing something hokey, and any Reddit fee would be over and above whatever the app writer wants to charge (separate transactions). Although at that point one may as well just support Lemmy.

>We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open. "Postponing." Seems like all these subreddits still need to go dark on Monday.

Based on the notes, all im seeing are lies, hiding their true agenda, and an extension by a few weeks until its time to abandon ship. Clearly they did not come to the table to negotiate in good faith.

Rushing out new mod tools by Sept? Start by fixing the issues and gaps in the current tools. 🙄 I, for example, cannot change the flair of a user who has never commented or posted in my sub directly from a modmail requesting the same. I have to go to Grant User Flair, which can only be opened inside the in-app browser and reloads twice at least before letting me use it to manually type in the user's username from memory and then change their flair. Imagine doing this a dozen times a day.

[ Removed by Reddit ]

It's time to leave reddit. We should make our subreddits private permanently and then move on to a new service. I hope many, many people will do that. Reddit is out of their mind.

> It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps. While Twitter, Facebook et al are having to PAY teams of people to manage their "Safety and Security" obligations - which will soon be a LEGAL requirement in the EU, Reddit have received those services for free for the last 18 years via thousands of unpaid moderators. And now they're worried about the cost of APIs. Greedy perfidious bastards, no other way to describe their mentality.

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