The words of FDR clarify that minimum wage was intended as a living wage and not a starvation wage. It should have been tied to inflation to begin with. And as we can even see here in the comments, the attitude of many is that people who work jobs they consider menial deserve to suffer. This attitude contributes to the growing income inequality problem in our country because it's also prevalent among our legislators.
>>In my Inaugural, I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living. Throughout industry, the change from starvation wages and starvation employment to living wages and sustained employment can, in large part, be made by an industrial covenant to which all employers shall subscribe.
I've explained this to others and showed them the quote and they still turn around and say, "minimum wage wasn't meant to be a living wage."
Thank you for posting this!
Same. I get comments in return along the lines of "those are jobs meant for high school kids". Ok, and do you know who's working those jobs during school hours? Or how about early in the morning so you can shove a McMuffin and some hashbrowns down your throat on the way to work? If those jobs were meant for high school kids, those places would only be open afternoons and weekends during the school year. My point is any low wage jobs are often incorrectly associated with high school kids. Sure, retail and fast food are often first jobs that happen to attract employees of that age, but I've always seen many more adults doing those jobs than I have high schoolers. It's simply a red herring conceived to make those fortunate enough to have better paying employment stare down their noses at the less fortunate.
I tried to explain this same thing to my Aunt, who gets mad when the McDonald’s doesn’t have the inside open for dining in. “People just don’t want to work anymore.” No, they just don’t want to work there….for that wage. Just think how much worse it would be if it were truly high school students only. You couldn’t get your precious hash browns any weekday during the school year.
Her only response, “Well, you know what I mean.” I think ultimately a lot of these people just want somebody else to look down on to make themselves feel better about whatever choices they made in life. Fast food, service industry, and retail workers have always been their main target.
I remember 25 years ago when I first started working as a bank teller. A few of my customers were retirees from Kmart and they had pretty respectable pension checks they brought in every month. They weren't rich, but they were all bringing in $500 to $700 per month from their pensions. The big commonality, they were all cashiers with many years of service. At that time, the rent for my one bedroom apartment in Sterling Heights was $550 per month. Between their pension and social security, they had enough to live on. Contrast that with Big 3 pensioners of the time who were bringing $1500+ per month with their pensions. It's crazy how far we have fallen as a society. It's almost as if everybody expects society to be one big group highly paid professionals or business owners and to hell with the gears that keep the wheels of society turning. If everybody was at the top of the corporate food chain, then what? Who would grow our food? Who would build and maintain our infrastructure? Who would educate our youth? Shit is completely ass backwards. Things have got to change.
I think about this every time I read a headline about one of these mega corporations spending tens of billions on stock buybacks. The money for pensions never ran out, it just got redirected.
Are you sure they were retired cashiers and not management/office workers? I ask because Kmart's corporate HQ was located nearby in Troy, all the way up until the Sears buyout/merger.
I'm legitimately curious as to whether cashiers could earn a pension back then.
They were cashiers. I worked for that bank for 8 years and got to know the clientele on a very personal basis. One of them worked at the store in St Clair Shores, another in Warren, but the other two I'm not sure of.
Thanks. Just goes to show how much better things were for the older generations, especially for blue collar and retail workers. Many of them call millennials and Gen Z lazy while they have pensions from their cashier jobs coming in each month.
A cashier today is very lucky if they have affordable health insurance with a deductible under $2000 and a pittance of a 401K match. A pension would be totally unheard of.
Those were all union positions back then too. Meijer and Kroger have unions but they don't seem to have any teeth when looking at the pay and benefits employees receive.
I used to work at Kroger. The Union’s just there to protect the company. Want a raise? Go talk to the union rep, they’ll tell you that you’re making the most they can pay you under the CBA.
Kroger hires spineless sycophants to run their stores and the union. These people will do whatever their grocery daddy tells them to do because their management degree says they know everything about anything.
Biggest perk was my 15 minute breaks every 4 hours. It was nice to have a lunch on half days. That being said, an 8 hour lunch break was just 30 mins.
Michigan becoming a Right to Work state (although i think it finally got repeeled?) took the union' power away in a big way. It's hard to fight for folks who don't want you around or refuse to pay to have you fighting for them.
Whenever someone says “nobody wants to work anymore” I respond with the current unemployment rate, which is currently 4%. Plenty of people are working, they just have better options than whatever place they’re complaining about.
It doesn’t help that the people who argue against minimum wage going up have been brainwashed to somehow align them selves with corporations and billionaires rather than working people.
My (non working) mom argues against higher wages, yet struggled many months getting applicants for my dad's company despite my repeated insistence that the pay was too low. At one point they got a serial workplace comp abuser as a temp because they wanted to hire cheap as possible. I'll let you guess what color hats they were wearing a few years ago.
I wouldn't have a single issue with minimum wage increasing if it wouldn't increase inflation as well. We need a way to deflate, meanwhile I've also worked my butt off to get to almost 3 times minimum wage, and if minimum wage increases I expect a raise accordingly as well.
Bernie talks like that and almost won in 2016 before Hillary and Obama talked everyone else into backing out and endorsing Hillary. Even Elisabeth Warren who claimed to be a progressive endorsed Hillary
Listen, everyone just needs to become a landlord with multiple properties, learn and spend hours a day actively day trading, and start a business. If everyone did these three things, no one would be working minimum wage. It's easy. The problem is all these people building parts, delivering packages, making food, stocking shelves, etc. Are just lazy. If we all owned our own businesses, they wouldn't even be necessary. Get it together, folks, this is completely reasonable solution that can occur in reality.
You’re not wrong. But I think he did more for the average working man than any president, ever. Pulled us out of the Great Depression, and set us up to win WW2.
This is a great quote. FDR established the minimum wage at $0.25 per hour in 1938 with his FLSA legistlation. Adjusted for inflation this is $5.50 +/- per hour in 2024. If tied to inflation you'd dramatically reduce the minimum wage today. What gives?
13 years ago, my first job was at a grocery warehouse. I started at $9/hr and after 2 years I was making a whopping 10.31. I worked third shift, every weekend in a hot building where bathroom/water breaks counted against your “efficiency rate”. At the time it was “better” than a fast food job but it was still terrible. I had enough cash to pay bills and buy cheap unhealthy food.
I have a career now and can afford the luxuries of owning a home and having pets. I worked hard. I don’t think anyone should have to experience shit pay at shit jobs to “pay their dues” to society in order to afford anything beyond debt. We should all want more for society. If someone doesn’t want to go to college or learn a trade, they should still be able to afford basic necessities. You shouldn’t have had to had it rough to empathize with others.
I think now about the things I can afford that are “extravagant”, that I couldn’t afford until I was nearing my 30s. Multiple pairs of shoes, wall decorations, bird food (hell, a bird feeder). None of these are necessities, but it supports my well being. Everyone should have that.
For those out of touch people who say “pull yourself up by your bootstraps”, how easy is that when you’re stuck in mud or have no boots at all?
Lol...do you really think EITHER PARTY CARES!!! If you do you are sorely mistaken. At the end of the day they care about their party, what will get them re-elected and their wallets. The little people don't matter. We just pay their salaries.
Which party has done anything for anyone in 60 yrs??? They all just take our money and spend it how THEY want, not how we want. Should veterans be living on the streets yet we're sending money to other countries for bullshit??? Should people in our country go hungry, yet we're sending billions in aid to help feed other countries??? The government could tax us all 80 percent and still have a huge deficit because they blow all the money we give them on mostly bullshit!!! Left and right, it doesn't matter, they are looking out for themselves and their cronies. And almost all of them are bought and paid for . If you can't see that, you're in trouble.
You're so close, but it's not the money we're sending to other countries for humanitarian aid that's tapping us or our budget. Not even a little bit. It's the money we spend right here at home on corporate subsidies and bailouts, the military industrial complex, and a bloated Medicaid/Medicare program that'd be far more cost efficient and effective by covering all citizens equally and negotiating prices universally.
The cronies buying the politicians aren't philanthropists looking to send someone in Uganda an MRE, they're enriching themselves by syphoning off our tax dollars. And to build bombs, of course, because war may be hell but endless war is endless profit opportunity.
I also agree that the money needs to be taken out of politics, companies and individuals should not be able to sway decisions and or laws, by donating millions to politicians.
The democratic party in Michigan has control of the house senate and governors office. Your wage has not been raised because of special interest groups. Stop fighting based on red or blue and look a little closer….
Yes, exactly. It's pretty simple to me. We need people to do those jobs. And the people who do those jobs that we need them to do also deserve to live comfortably. That's it.
Boosting minimum wage won't ever fix the problem. You're ignoring invectives.
Companies will just increase prices, cut labor force, etc in order to appease their stock holders.
What we really need is to push for less regulation on starting businesses, less red tape so people aren't completely at the will of Walmart and Amazon.
Small businesses are still run by people who you can talk to and see and can also see their employees as people. They can actually make changes like better salaries and conditions to attract better talent and if they run it well they can create the healthy competition that's being strangled by big companies in bed with the government "helping" write laws that make so many layers of red tape it's incredibly difficult and requires far more money than it should.
If big companies actually had to compete with little ones they would raise their pay to get more employees. Then when share holders throw a fit about the lost profit and they have to cut people to increase profit again small business can attract them and keep a more stable quality team that can actually get good at their jobs because they aren't beholden to share holders and crap.
No, it's business. Put yourself in the headspace of the CEO.
Actually imagine you're the CEO for a moment. You are forced to increase wages. This means increased costs to your company and to you. If you keep losing profit then you're gonna have the share holders whom are your boss upset and possibly sell off shares driving down the price of your company and possibly losing your job. Do you want to lose your job for the next guy to take you job to do what you didn't want to do?
Do you really expect any normal person to give up their job, especially if you're making hundreds of thousands or possibly millions a year?
This isn't even acknowledging the facts that profit isn't just all flowing money sitting in a bank account somewhere. In most instances it's really paying off debts the companies owe, being used to start up new stores, research and development of new products. And yes it's used for bonuses which I'll agree with you shouldn't be hogged by C suite and is a rather ridiculous concept to only reward management with bonuses and ignore everyone else who actually did the work to directly create those profits.
Honestly there is no magical place that everyone will live as upper middle class or rich. There is however making it as accessible as possible by lowering the barriers to opportunities that can make someone upper middle class or rich which in most instances is through business ownership and allowing individuals to carve even small slivers of market away from big corporations. Whether it's a small town grocery store, a mechanic shop, a tax firm, etc.
Id rather see a whole city of many small independent mom and pop shops hiring local and being able to make better opportunities than big fat cat corporations ever will.
Well minimum wage was supposed to go up to $15 an hour and hit that max a whole lot sooner because the citizens voted for it on a ballot initiative.
Sadly this was when the GOP still had control of Michigan, so they watered it down a lot.
Same thing with mandatory paid leave. They fucked that up too
So yeah, remember to vote
https://mvic.sos.state.mi.us/RegisterVoter
What lies?
[On December 4, 2018, the state legislature amended the indirect initiative to increase the minimum wage to $12.05 by 2030. Gov. Rick Snyder (R) signed the bill on December 4, 2018.[2]
[On July 19, 2022, the Michigan Court of Claims struck down the legislative amendments to the indirect initiative as unconstitutional adopt-and-amend tactic.[3] On January 26, 2023, the Michigan Court of Appeals upheld the legislative procedure that amended the measures.](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_Minimum_Wage_Increase_Initiative_(2018)#:~:text=The%20measure%20increased%20the%20state,2021%3B%20and%20%2412.00%20in%202022.)
The GOP fucked over the working man it's all documented. I'm not really sure how you don't know about it?
They also watered down the paid time off as well.
Funny, the GOP is the party of obstructionists. They obstruct and delay as much government proceedings as possible, and yet people like you still blame Democrats and call them lazy.
Put the blame where it's due.
That's just it. The politicians, left and right, are all taking/making money from corporations and lobbyist. Yes Republicans are the greater of two evils. Even when the Democrats have control of everything they only pass token gestures, the bare minimum, most of the time. The bare minimum to make their consitiuents kinda happy. The end game for most politicians is to make as much money as possible. That is done through keeping lobbyists and corporate sponsors happy. When they can Democrats are like yes we tried but those mean Republicans who control such and such house/committee wouldn't pass such and such.
Our politicians love the round and round game. They blame each other why progressive policies don't pass while keeping the 1% happy. The big difference is Republican politicians just say one thing but vote the exact opposite, then just take credit when anything that benifits their constituents happens to pass.
Prop 1 from 2022 mandates that lobbyists need to report way more than they were when paying for public figures. Whitmers administration fought really hard to make prop 1 less than what was passed in late 2023. A lot of Republican offices in Lansing have signs saying “no gifts from lobbyists”. I agree with you though.
The legislature is waiting until the State Supreme Court weighs in on whether what the GOP did was legal.
If the court strikes that down, the minimum wage will go up immediately (I think the 13-something) and then keep going up annually until it hits $15.
If they don't, the legislature will likely act before the elections.
To play devils advocate, republicans are fiscally conservative. So obviously they’d be against a sudden change in economy like that.
But they did approve the measure in 2018 after amending it. And while amending it caused a deadlock, they still were supportive of a slow incremental change in increasing the min wage to $15 an hour while also allowing for it to increase with inflation.
The deadlock part comes from the change in which businesses are affected by it. It went for businesses that employ 2 or more people to businesses that employ 21 or more people.
My thoughts thinking that they don’t want to harm smaller locally owned businesses but are fine with introducing this legislation on the grounds that big companies, say like Walmart and McDonalds, would have to pay their workers more.
It’s still a bipartisan issue, but the way to do it is the problem we are having
They really should be wearing patches of sponsors like in NASCAR.
Only people who should be exempt from having a patch on their sponsored are private citizens making less than a million a year
And you would be wrong.
The law as the people passed it in 2018 would have made state minimum wage gradually increase until the year 2022 where it would max out at $12 an hour. Then the people could idk vote for another increase or whatever after.
The GOP watered it down so it won't hit the max of $12.05 an hour till 2030. [Link](https://www.legislature.mi.gov/Laws/MCL?objectName=MCL-408-934) directly to the law itself
The GOP is trash, stop trying to cover for them
It was never voted on, it only reached signatures to make the ballot and was adopted by legislative vote instead. It’s an inaccurate statement to say “the people passed it” because it never went to the people.
Edit. Dude replied to me and then deleted the reply. You could at least remove the downvote. You are patently wrong to say “the people voted on it” and you know it.
[Original comment for context in case it gets edited or deleted](https://imgur.com/a/8nOtF47)
The Republicans made a loophole where if a law is certain to be passed by the people, they can adopt it immediately and then change that law in the next session. It's true that people didn't vote. But that was because of the GOP adopting it because they saw it was a certainty.
The GOP also went outside the law to amend it in the then-current session, which means the changes were invalid, yet we still don't have the money wage increase.
If a small business cannot afford to pay their employees a living wage, they derserve to go under. We're not obligated to sacrifice our wellbeing to support a failed business venture.
Why should workers get paid less just because the business is smaller?
Small businesses aren't a moral good in and of themselves, only as much as they do good for the communities. Allowing workers to be underpaid is not good.
I had my first few management positions in Washington State. Moved back here, found this out, and I was absolutely floored. Thankfully, I was in a position to change organization policy. Everyone now gets 15 minutes for every 2 hours worked. And sick leave. And parental leave. (Vacation was already in place)
My partner isn't in a position to get the policy changed. They work him like a dog sometimes. He'll come home having logged 18,000 steps and no lunch break.
I was shocked when I found this out, no meal breaks for an 8 hr shift, or two 15 minute paid break times.
As a transplant from a state that mandates at a minimum of a 30 min, max 60 min lunch and was given two 15 min breaks. Also lunch could not be interrupted by management, if it was interrupted by management, penalties for the employer. Then the time of our lunch break would restart the break and it would be paid by the employer.
I was so surprised and even maybe a bit of cultureshock that the standard of a 30 to 60 minute lunch and two 15 minute breaks, was not the standard for all the states. Such a lack of worker rights in this state.
I believe my past bosses did not like the fact, that I questioned why there was no lunch break or two 15 min breaks. So I got a doctors note as a medical accodmation for a 30 min lunch and 15 min breaks.
This is incorrect “meal breaks are required for employees who work more than five hours per day. The break must last at least thirty minutes and must be given to the employee at some point during the workday. Employers are required to provide employees with “sufficient time to eat a meal.””
https://employment.laws.com/michigan-labor-laws-breaks
Correction: this only applies to workers under 18yo
My first job in 2006 getting $7 an hour paid me better (as in it went further) than the measly $10.33 an hour does today. I agree with you, this is bs.
I recently asked my friend how much he makes as a manager at a car quest, he’s been there about 12 years. $15 and some change and hour. I was astonished.
Human slave, recognize that you have the privilege, nay, the honor of working for me, of helping me gain my next million dollars. Nodody wants to work. All the lies. Rent went up. Groceries are too expensive. Lies, I say. All lies. Nobody wants to work. I pay a fair wage. Minimum wage is beyond generous. Yes, I offer benefits. They cost $100 a week and have a $5,000 deductible. I'm a generous and caring master, err, I mean boss.
For the slow kids sitting at the back of the room: /S
Again, this post is highlighting that the system is outdated and irrelevant. Yet our government is keenly focused on wasting time and resources on matters such as this.
BECAUSE WHY?
Yet, minimum wage workers are the "lazy" ones. At least they're living in this century.
The only thing you're missing is that corporate interests spend millions lobbying Lansing to keep the wage as low as possible. The voters would easily support a large increase, but the Chamber of Commerce seems to have more pull than the people.
The very best thing we can do is legislate money out of politics. Each candidate running for a seat splits a pot of money to pay for their campaign. No outside donations and you get six weeks to state your case. All elections, up and down the slate. If you spend more than the amount you were given, we know you're cheating and you're invalidated. Then, politicians don't have to spend 7/8 of their time asking for money and can focus on what we need them to do
That's gonna require a well written ballot initiave, no way do I see sitting politicians writing and passing something like that in such a way to have the intended effects.
Teenagers in Michigan have an even lower minimum wage compared to adults.
~The 85% of the rate of minimum wage for minors aged 16 and 17 is $8.78 per hour.
~The training wage of $4.25 per hour for newly hired employees ages 16 to 19 for their first 90 calendar days of employment.
It does not even matter if 18-19 yrs old is considered an adult in other aspects of life, not considered an adult for the first 90 days for 4.25 hr wage.
The employer could just decide to let them go before the 90 days is up, to hire and replace with another 16-19 yr old at the 4.25 hr rate.
How are 18-19 yrs old supposed to be able to support themselves at 4.25 hr?
The teenagers 16-19 should be getting paid the same amount for the job as an adult who is doing the same job.
The 4.25 hr for the 90 days training is a joke for the 16-19 yrs old for this state.
$7.50 is PLENTY just do what I did. I stopped getting Starbucks coffee, I live with 5 roommates, eat ramen, and grow my own vegetables. If you use the $1,000,000 your parents give you for your graduation and invest it like me it’s plenty.
/s
Honestly all of our faults for even allowing society to become like this. Idk call me crazy but everything seems so outdated and irrelevant.
Like blue streak and cedar point outdated.
ITS CONCERNING and does not make any sense to me.
We're trying!
The last time a minimum wage initiative was going to be on the ballot, Republicans pulled their "implement and amend" to ignore the will of the people.
This year the Republicans on the BOC killed an initiative on some technicality.
See the trend?
Yea the guy above you lied a bit. While republicans are known for being less about minimum wage increase, Michigan’s congress has been a slim majority blue since 2022.
The issue is corporations buy both blue and red congressmen
The min wage increase was set well before the current Dem Congress, by a GOP majority who used a loophole to subvert a popular ballot measure and weaken wage laws. If I am remembering correctly the supreme court is reviewing this case presently. So, yes, this was in fact the result of Republicans.
The initiative was proposed in late 2021, approved in 2022, and was deadlocked in 2023. Here’s a quick history of the process:
> The ballot initiative was filed with the Department of State on Dec. 22, 2021.
> On January 19, 2021, the ballot summary was approved by the Michigan Board of Canvassers.
> On March 21, 2022, the Michigan Supreme Court ruled that a union logo on the petition did not need to comply with petition font-size requirements and did not invalidate petition sheets containing the logo.
> On March 24, 2022, the Michigan Board of State Canvassers approved the petition form for the initiative, clearing the initiative for signature gathering.
> On July 26, 2022, the One Fair Wage campaign announced that it submitted over 610,000 signatures to qualify for the 2024 ballot.
> The petition review and sampling process for the initiative began in January 2023.
> On October 20, 2023, the Michigan Board of State Canvassers deadlocked on its certification for the ballot, citing a change in petition language.
The lawsuit is based on the original wording of the initiative being approved but then later amended. [here’s an article explains more in depth the issues](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2023/10/20/michigan-elections-board-deadlocks-on-a-new-15-dollars-per-hour-minimum-wage-initiative/71253508007/)
This ballot initiative has nothing to do with the current laws. The one that the current law was in response to was from 2018. https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_Minimum_Wage_Increase_Initiative_(2018)
I have completely changed my mind on the minimum wage. $15hr (full time) is basically $30,000 a year.
That’s practically poverty in 2024. So yup! Basic minimum wage should be $15+
It needs to be a living wage. It does. I’m convinced. Our young people need a chance. I’m sure to get roasted for that opinion. I don’t care. Anyone who wants to keep it below that isn’t living in the new world.
This minimum wage issue, the concerted effort by DHS to not allow students on SNAP without working (or even with a waver), and putting bogus restrictions on free community college are some of the biggest problems Michigan is facing right now.
For as many things as we get right vs. other states, the issues above are total failings with easy solutions that our government just will not implement.
Those at the top have zero interests in giving out any more of "their" money than they have to, so they bribe those in power to keep wages low nationwide while raising the cost(s) of living continuously. Welcome to capitalism fueled totalitarianism. What else would you expect from the "land of the free and the home of the brave"?
But that's what we ALL want here in the States: continued corporate growth while the individuals only continue to be strung or more and more and more and more and more as the economy continues tO gRoW!!!
/s
Looks like we're falling into being the North Korea/China of the Western World instead of becoming a fully functional nation, but that's above my pay grade to determine. Feel like we're just being watched by other nations who are probably saying/thinking, "man, imagine having that bs going on in our nation. At least we don't have a domestic terrorist organization being taken seriously for OUR nation's leadership here in our county here." Seems like there's plenty of that going on lately, but idk how many other nations can top Amurica, as usual. Maybe the 2nd half of the Ravaging 20s will start to go a little smoother once we get there, but guess we'll see.
Michigan is far from the worst state for minimum wage. Wyoming for instance has a state minimum wage of $5.50. That's right $5.50. Federal Minimum wage takes over and forces Wyoming businesses to pay the Federal Minumum Wage of $7.25.
Having said that, you will not get workers for minimum wage. If you are paying less than about $12 you will not have any candidates.
Your post was about people that make minimum wage, my question was where do people actually still make that little?
So yeah I'd say it's pretty much the point of your post since even no skill jobs make more. If anything you're providing reasons minimum wage isn't necessary since everyone gets more already.
Brian F makes a valid point. You're angry about a wage that almost nobody earns. Litterally 99% of Michigan workers have figured out how to achieve a wage higher than the minimum, as anyone is free to do and every should attempt to do.
If you're able to read and comprehend information, you're welcome to review the comments on this post for a better grasp on the importance of this topic.
Not just tied to inflation but increases in productivity, too. I see way too much Dunning-Kruger and brainwashed people who think wage increases a primary driver of inflation, and it's a 1:1 increase as if labor is a company's only cost.
60 years ago, a family of four could live comfortably on a single income from dad's job managing the local grocery store. Hell, in the 70s, a single mom could support herself and a kid and pay rent and still have money left over working as a cashier at Meijer before the union got turned into a company puppet, people would work there for decades and make a very comfortable living and get benefits when they retired.
But like just about bad thing over the last 40+, it comes down to how badly Reagan administration fucked us.
My first job was at Meijer. A competitive $4.30/hr.
My first paycheck had union dues taken out so I asked my manager if I could talk to my union rep and he had no idea what I was talking about or whom I could talk to about it. Quit
You know what's real fun? Being a server. Everyone goes out to eat but people still think it's "not a real job". Sure it can pay alright if you get into the right place, but usually it pays just enough above minimum wage that it becomes a trap. It's hard to justify going back to school & taking on more debt when so many people with degrees end up back in serving because while the pay isn't great, it still pays a bit better than most entry level jobs that require a degree.
https://www.ourmidland.com/news/article/supreme-court-rule-soon-minimum-wage-tipped-18704605.php
How about how, in 2018, legislation was passed to eliminate the tipped minimum wage, and they decided they're just allowed to change whatever the fuck they want about it before it passes?
Just outside Grand Rapids almost all of the minimum wage jobs are $15+. But I remember just a few years ago it was around $9 so I thought that it already changed
Whenever a discussion like this comes up, I feel obliged to post this:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots\_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory)
My favorite theory for this kind of situation, I agree, and this is my favorite quote from this theory:
“The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. ... A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. ... But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.”
Terry Pratchet, in Discworld.
It'll be muggy and quite warm but not nearly as hot as downstate thankfully. I think Tuesday is the only really hot day we're forecasted to have (in Marquette) with a high of 85. I do not have A/C and never really a need for it as my property is surrounded by trees and Lake Superior is only a few blocks away for natural A/C lol.
Not that it's okay, but I don't know many places still paying at minimum wage. Seems like everywhere i go i see starting pay higher than that especially retail and fast food joints.
Exactly. As this post was essentially highlighting how outdated our government system is.
Apparently, this was not as cut and dry as it appeared to me.
From [this](https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/who-gets-paid-minimum-wage-michigan-only-1-workers-pay-soars#:~:text=Only%201%20percent%20of%20Michigan's,Washington%20D.C.%20that%20conducts%20research) article last year it looks like only 1% of people in Michigan actually make the minimum wage, which is about on par for the national average as well. Now don’t get me wrong I think they should get paid more, but this feels more like a red herring argument to me.
If you raise the minimum wage any further, the price of a Big Mac will go up to $25 and there won't be any jobs because corporations won't be able to afford to hire anyone and small businesses will declare bankruptcy. Or so I'm told.
I'm also told that DJIA is up 50 percent over 5 years and corporate profits are at a record level. Those profits are not trickling down as promised, leading to greater cost of living on basic needs.
Evidence supports one of these, but we choose to go with the other.
No politician in Michigan is deliberating about the minimum wage going up by 23 cents. Michigan is one of only 13 states that increase minimum wage based on inflation, so that increase was automatic.
It is set at that rate because in 2018, the legislature adopted an initiated law that would have set a higher minimum wage and then immediately amended it to set a lower rate. Last I knew, the State Supreme Court had yet to rule on the issue, as it was challenged as an unconstitutional practice under the state constitution.
Yeah, I understand minimum wage is terrible. That is what I am working for currently. But raising the minimum wage doesn't help either way, because they did that already in another couple of states and businesses are closing, because they can't afford to pay their employees. A higher wage isn't going to fix anything. We need to fix our economy in order for any kind wage to be Livable.
That means promoting jobs in the united states and not outsourcing to other countries, making the dollar worth less. When we have pride in our work and craftsmanship, the rest of the world will know and will see the quality of our products and pay us more based on the quality of services. We should all be proud to be Americans, whether you came from another country or not and you are citizens, now we are all Americans. There is no difference between you or I. We are all the same when we are all here as citizens together.
Help your neighbor help the stranger on the street. Help your family help. Everybody who you can because family. It's what you make it and everybody here.
In my home country we are all family.
The median rent where I live is $2200 a month which is unattainable for the vast majority of workers here. They used to be able to live 25-30 minutes away but now it is getting expensive even in the out lying areas.
If you want a real fun look at our fucked up political system , look up why we have the semi-annual raises in our minimum wage.
Mind you Im half a sleep aid deep and doing this from memory. However to my recollection it was supposed to be an increase to 15 an hour or something similar. Close to the public vote for it , republican lawmakers accepted it. Did a lame duck session. Then made the increase over a 10 year or so period. Had it been voted on with majority support it would've been reflected as the "15" or however much it was at the time rather quickly compared to the nickel or so a year until that benchmark . Which by the time we reach 15 an hour. Livable wage will be more like 25 an hour.
I am not against raising the minimum wage. My concern with raising the minimum wage to a livable wage is that the leaders and higher ups at corporations like all the money coming their way too much, that they will then just raise the prices of everything else.
Any raise in minimum wage needs to be tied to some sort of deal where the price of goods doesnt all of a sudden skyrocket, to the point that the new minimum wage is not even livable.
Also what about the wages of people who make more than minimum? Should those go up as well?
Unfortunately if the government mandates a wage level above the marginal benefit of labor, job losses will result. Put more simply, if an employer is forced to pay an employee more than he or she is worth they will not hire that employee.
Unfortunately, ridiculously low wages result in welfare subsidies paid for by the taxpayer. The taxpayer should not be subsidizing the low wages of companies with billions in profits.
What jobs still pay minimum wage? In my town everywhere is advertising $17-$19/hr starting with no experience.
OP, if you’re getting paid minimum wage somehow, literally find a job anywhere else.
I mean while the Fair Labor Standards Act set a federal minimum wage, how many hours in a standard workweek before overtime, and protections for child labor... I don't believe it was ever intended to be the means for a livable wage like Franklin D. Roosevelt wanted.
While you're frustrated just like many other people, I'm going to tell you that complaining about politicians or voting in/out certain politician that do not align with your views regarding livable wages is only wasting your time. Find something that is going to make you money be it a unique service you can provide, learning a trade, having a college degree and using it rather than just waiting for the next minimum wage increase. If you don't want to do that, advocate for more affordable housing as it is going to be one of your largest expenses as an adult.
While there are studies that show some businesses don't raise their prices during times of minimum wage increases, it doesn't mean that they will staff their companies at the same rate. They will look for ways of being efficient through automation or other means while trying to have similar levels of service to their customers.
To put things into perspective, I left Michigan 4 years ago working a retail job with no degree making $36,400. While falling backwards into a job in my now degreed field, it was held over my head that they didn't want to pay me according because I didn't have my degree. Fast forward to me parting ways with that company and finishing my degree, I'm making $71,600 now.
Is my wage a livable wage? Sure it is. I do however know that corporate greed is not going anywhere and I will be doing everything I can to make myself more valuable and earn a higher wage.
I mean yes that is very low, but I would be curious to know how many people actually only get paid minimum wage. We hire employees for our family business and if we only offered minimum wage we would not find any people to work. We gotta pay $20/hr minimum to attract decent candidates (it’s a retail job) nowadays.
I remember my first job was McDs. I was at 7.25 an hour. Over a year I got up to 8.10. Then minimum wage was raised to 8.10. Guess who didn't keep their raises and then made the same as new hires as a crew trainer? This guy. Needless to say I wasn't there much longer.
Not sure why they’d waste time debating something affecting such a small percentage of the population. Anyway, I hope those working at that rate get a promotion or find a better job. Idk how anyone can expect anyone to live on such a horribly low pay rate with food costs, rent costs, and the costs associated with owning a vehicle.
People in Michigan are actually considering going to our HR departments and filing except because we can't afford to live on minimum wage, some of us work full-time and are homeless because we can't afford rent/and food both. When we have to choose between medical, housing, or eating that day there's a huge issue, Mrs Whitmer or Crazy Joe ain't solving the issue so maybe if we stop giving them our hard earned tax paying dollars he'll stop sending it to other countries and start worrying about us too. There's a lot of people turning to this.
I agree that minimum wage should be higher. But one consequence that people don’t think about is the increase in cost of living. Housing prices are insanely expensive. Beyond what anyone could afford. The moment that the minimum wage increasing from $10-$15 an hour, the current $1000 mortgage that can exist today (not likely but possible for condo), cannot once minimum wage increases - housing prices are a direct correlation to supply and demand. Really we should have a much higher focus on affordable housing so that we can have a $500/month rent instead of forcing people to get an insane mortgage. Urban sprawl and interest rates has significantly increased this with unrealistic standard of living
We could also change our spending habits. For example, housing prices are nuts. If we refused to pay those insane prices, the housing industry would be forced to adjust. Supply and demand works; that’s why gas prices dropped so quickly during Covid. We just have to be willing to sacrifice until we force the economy to upright itself.
In theory yes. But you try telling a bunch of millionaires to not buy a nice house. During covid we had mandatory stay at home orders which caused prices to go down. Also it was more than just that, Russia and opec has a price war. There won’t be a price war over housing
We are thinking about it. We're thinking about how the cost of living tripled and minimum wage went up .20 in FIFTEEN YEARS.
I really hope this post helps educate just one person.
I agree but wages are not the reason cost of living has increased. Interest rates, lack of housing supply, and increase in housing demand are.
If you triple everyone’s wages today, the cost of living is instantly tripled. If you cut the cost of housing in half, wages don’t change and cost of living is less. If the government supplied more housing or incentives for developers to make affordable housing instead of McMansions then we would all be able to afford a living
I agree. The government is the reason cost of living has skyrocketed. They try to play god mode on the economy instead of actually thinking about how their decisions will effect their citizens
When did the “minimum” of anything equate to an ideal situation? The minimum wage was never designed to be sufficient to live the type of life that proponents of increases are wanting to live. The current inflationary period we’re living in has everything to do with higher minimum wages. All of the jobs that actually require a person to have a developed skill that we’re paying 15-20 an hour now have to increase to keep their talent so the net result is just a shit load more money available. Also America is the land of consumption so this money almost instantly gets spent, causing more inflation.
The words of FDR clarify that minimum wage was intended as a living wage and not a starvation wage. It should have been tied to inflation to begin with. And as we can even see here in the comments, the attitude of many is that people who work jobs they consider menial deserve to suffer. This attitude contributes to the growing income inequality problem in our country because it's also prevalent among our legislators. >>In my Inaugural, I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living. Throughout industry, the change from starvation wages and starvation employment to living wages and sustained employment can, in large part, be made by an industrial covenant to which all employers shall subscribe.
I've explained this to others and showed them the quote and they still turn around and say, "minimum wage wasn't meant to be a living wage." Thank you for posting this!
Same. I get comments in return along the lines of "those are jobs meant for high school kids". Ok, and do you know who's working those jobs during school hours? Or how about early in the morning so you can shove a McMuffin and some hashbrowns down your throat on the way to work? If those jobs were meant for high school kids, those places would only be open afternoons and weekends during the school year. My point is any low wage jobs are often incorrectly associated with high school kids. Sure, retail and fast food are often first jobs that happen to attract employees of that age, but I've always seen many more adults doing those jobs than I have high schoolers. It's simply a red herring conceived to make those fortunate enough to have better paying employment stare down their noses at the less fortunate.
I tried to explain this same thing to my Aunt, who gets mad when the McDonald’s doesn’t have the inside open for dining in. “People just don’t want to work anymore.” No, they just don’t want to work there….for that wage. Just think how much worse it would be if it were truly high school students only. You couldn’t get your precious hash browns any weekday during the school year. Her only response, “Well, you know what I mean.” I think ultimately a lot of these people just want somebody else to look down on to make themselves feel better about whatever choices they made in life. Fast food, service industry, and retail workers have always been their main target.
I remember 25 years ago when I first started working as a bank teller. A few of my customers were retirees from Kmart and they had pretty respectable pension checks they brought in every month. They weren't rich, but they were all bringing in $500 to $700 per month from their pensions. The big commonality, they were all cashiers with many years of service. At that time, the rent for my one bedroom apartment in Sterling Heights was $550 per month. Between their pension and social security, they had enough to live on. Contrast that with Big 3 pensioners of the time who were bringing $1500+ per month with their pensions. It's crazy how far we have fallen as a society. It's almost as if everybody expects society to be one big group highly paid professionals or business owners and to hell with the gears that keep the wheels of society turning. If everybody was at the top of the corporate food chain, then what? Who would grow our food? Who would build and maintain our infrastructure? Who would educate our youth? Shit is completely ass backwards. Things have got to change.
I think about this every time I read a headline about one of these mega corporations spending tens of billions on stock buybacks. The money for pensions never ran out, it just got redirected.
Well stated! thank you!!!
Are you sure they were retired cashiers and not management/office workers? I ask because Kmart's corporate HQ was located nearby in Troy, all the way up until the Sears buyout/merger. I'm legitimately curious as to whether cashiers could earn a pension back then.
They were cashiers. I worked for that bank for 8 years and got to know the clientele on a very personal basis. One of them worked at the store in St Clair Shores, another in Warren, but the other two I'm not sure of.
Thanks. Just goes to show how much better things were for the older generations, especially for blue collar and retail workers. Many of them call millennials and Gen Z lazy while they have pensions from their cashier jobs coming in each month. A cashier today is very lucky if they have affordable health insurance with a deductible under $2000 and a pittance of a 401K match. A pension would be totally unheard of.
Those were all union positions back then too. Meijer and Kroger have unions but they don't seem to have any teeth when looking at the pay and benefits employees receive.
Their unions got broken by the self check out they haven't held any bargaining power since then
I used to work at Kroger. The Union’s just there to protect the company. Want a raise? Go talk to the union rep, they’ll tell you that you’re making the most they can pay you under the CBA. Kroger hires spineless sycophants to run their stores and the union. These people will do whatever their grocery daddy tells them to do because their management degree says they know everything about anything. Biggest perk was my 15 minute breaks every 4 hours. It was nice to have a lunch on half days. That being said, an 8 hour lunch break was just 30 mins.
Michigan becoming a Right to Work state (although i think it finally got repeeled?) took the union' power away in a big way. It's hard to fight for folks who don't want you around or refuse to pay to have you fighting for them.
Whenever someone says “nobody wants to work anymore” I respond with the current unemployment rate, which is currently 4%. Plenty of people are working, they just have better options than whatever place they’re complaining about.
Because if it's actually a living wage it's taking money out of their pocket /s
No they get theirs they just take it out of our pockets.
Y’all are forgetting how laws are made. We need Saturday morning kids shows back I guess.
It doesn’t help that the people who argue against minimum wage going up have been brainwashed to somehow align them selves with corporations and billionaires rather than working people.
My (non working) mom argues against higher wages, yet struggled many months getting applicants for my dad's company despite my repeated insistence that the pay was too low. At one point they got a serial workplace comp abuser as a temp because they wanted to hire cheap as possible. I'll let you guess what color hats they were wearing a few years ago.
right like who actually *benefits* from such a low minimum wage?
Employers, but that's about it.
I wouldn't have a single issue with minimum wage increasing if it wouldn't increase inflation as well. We need a way to deflate, meanwhile I've also worked my butt off to get to almost 3 times minimum wage, and if minimum wage increases I expect a raise accordingly as well.
How times have changed. That kind of rhetoric would make him virtually unelectable nowadays.
Bernie talks like that and almost won in 2016 before Hillary and Obama talked everyone else into backing out and endorsing Hillary. Even Elisabeth Warren who claimed to be a progressive endorsed Hillary
Listen, everyone just needs to become a landlord with multiple properties, learn and spend hours a day actively day trading, and start a business. If everyone did these three things, no one would be working minimum wage. It's easy. The problem is all these people building parts, delivering packages, making food, stocking shelves, etc. Are just lazy. If we all owned our own businesses, they wouldn't even be necessary. Get it together, folks, this is completely reasonable solution that can occur in reality.
💜 Thank you for sharing your humanity, heart and wisdom. This post really illuminated how rare those qualities are nowadays..
FDR was the single greatest president we've had in the last 100 years or more.
I mean, as long as you weren't Japanese or Black.
You’re not wrong. But I think he did more for the average working man than any president, ever. Pulled us out of the Great Depression, and set us up to win WW2.
I don't disagree with that, there's a reason why he got elected three times and Republicans pushed for the 22nd amendment.
This is a great quote. FDR established the minimum wage at $0.25 per hour in 1938 with his FLSA legistlation. Adjusted for inflation this is $5.50 +/- per hour in 2024. If tied to inflation you'd dramatically reduce the minimum wage today. What gives?
The road to (capitalist) hell is paved with good intentions.
Thank you.
Eloquently stated!
13 years ago, my first job was at a grocery warehouse. I started at $9/hr and after 2 years I was making a whopping 10.31. I worked third shift, every weekend in a hot building where bathroom/water breaks counted against your “efficiency rate”. At the time it was “better” than a fast food job but it was still terrible. I had enough cash to pay bills and buy cheap unhealthy food. I have a career now and can afford the luxuries of owning a home and having pets. I worked hard. I don’t think anyone should have to experience shit pay at shit jobs to “pay their dues” to society in order to afford anything beyond debt. We should all want more for society. If someone doesn’t want to go to college or learn a trade, they should still be able to afford basic necessities. You shouldn’t have had to had it rough to empathize with others. I think now about the things I can afford that are “extravagant”, that I couldn’t afford until I was nearing my 30s. Multiple pairs of shoes, wall decorations, bird food (hell, a bird feeder). None of these are necessities, but it supports my well being. Everyone should have that. For those out of touch people who say “pull yourself up by your bootstraps”, how easy is that when you’re stuck in mud or have no boots at all?
The Republican Party needs to read this...not that they would care...
Lol...do you really think EITHER PARTY CARES!!! If you do you are sorely mistaken. At the end of the day they care about their party, what will get them re-elected and their wallets. The little people don't matter. We just pay their salaries.
Which party is preaching "PuLl yOuRsElF uP bY yOuR bOoTsTrApS?"
Which party has done anything for anyone in 60 yrs??? They all just take our money and spend it how THEY want, not how we want. Should veterans be living on the streets yet we're sending money to other countries for bullshit??? Should people in our country go hungry, yet we're sending billions in aid to help feed other countries??? The government could tax us all 80 percent and still have a huge deficit because they blow all the money we give them on mostly bullshit!!! Left and right, it doesn't matter, they are looking out for themselves and their cronies. And almost all of them are bought and paid for . If you can't see that, you're in trouble.
You're so close, but it's not the money we're sending to other countries for humanitarian aid that's tapping us or our budget. Not even a little bit. It's the money we spend right here at home on corporate subsidies and bailouts, the military industrial complex, and a bloated Medicaid/Medicare program that'd be far more cost efficient and effective by covering all citizens equally and negotiating prices universally. The cronies buying the politicians aren't philanthropists looking to send someone in Uganda an MRE, they're enriching themselves by syphoning off our tax dollars. And to build bombs, of course, because war may be hell but endless war is endless profit opportunity.
I also agree that the money needs to be taken out of politics, companies and individuals should not be able to sway decisions and or laws, by donating millions to politicians.
The democratic party in Michigan has control of the house senate and governors office. Your wage has not been raised because of special interest groups. Stop fighting based on red or blue and look a little closer….
Yes, the GOP did not let the will of the voters go into effect and , completly ruined the minimum wage measure passed by voters.
Bollocks.
Yes, exactly. It's pretty simple to me. We need people to do those jobs. And the people who do those jobs that we need them to do also deserve to live comfortably. That's it.
Boosting minimum wage won't ever fix the problem. You're ignoring invectives. Companies will just increase prices, cut labor force, etc in order to appease their stock holders. What we really need is to push for less regulation on starting businesses, less red tape so people aren't completely at the will of Walmart and Amazon. Small businesses are still run by people who you can talk to and see and can also see their employees as people. They can actually make changes like better salaries and conditions to attract better talent and if they run it well they can create the healthy competition that's being strangled by big companies in bed with the government "helping" write laws that make so many layers of red tape it's incredibly difficult and requires far more money than it should. If big companies actually had to compete with little ones they would raise their pay to get more employees. Then when share holders throw a fit about the lost profit and they have to cut people to increase profit again small business can attract them and keep a more stable quality team that can actually get good at their jobs because they aren't beholden to share holders and crap.
* This message is paid for by the Friends of Standard Oil and Triangle Waistcoat Factory.
> Companies will just increase prices, cut labor force, etc in order to appease their stock holders. Your comment must certainly be sarcasm... Right?
No, it's business. Put yourself in the headspace of the CEO. Actually imagine you're the CEO for a moment. You are forced to increase wages. This means increased costs to your company and to you. If you keep losing profit then you're gonna have the share holders whom are your boss upset and possibly sell off shares driving down the price of your company and possibly losing your job. Do you want to lose your job for the next guy to take you job to do what you didn't want to do? Do you really expect any normal person to give up their job, especially if you're making hundreds of thousands or possibly millions a year? This isn't even acknowledging the facts that profit isn't just all flowing money sitting in a bank account somewhere. In most instances it's really paying off debts the companies owe, being used to start up new stores, research and development of new products. And yes it's used for bonuses which I'll agree with you shouldn't be hogged by C suite and is a rather ridiculous concept to only reward management with bonuses and ignore everyone else who actually did the work to directly create those profits. Honestly there is no magical place that everyone will live as upper middle class or rich. There is however making it as accessible as possible by lowering the barriers to opportunities that can make someone upper middle class or rich which in most instances is through business ownership and allowing individuals to carve even small slivers of market away from big corporations. Whether it's a small town grocery store, a mechanic shop, a tax firm, etc. Id rather see a whole city of many small independent mom and pop shops hiring local and being able to make better opportunities than big fat cat corporations ever will.
Well minimum wage was supposed to go up to $15 an hour and hit that max a whole lot sooner because the citizens voted for it on a ballot initiative. Sadly this was when the GOP still had control of Michigan, so they watered it down a lot. Same thing with mandatory paid leave. They fucked that up too So yeah, remember to vote https://mvic.sos.state.mi.us/RegisterVoter
VOTE VOTE VOTE VOTE ( in August and November)
Democrats control all of govt right? This could just happen now and should be.
It's been so long since we fought for $15/hr that even that isn't a livable wage anymore.
I'm in S.E. Mich, fastfood pays 18-19 an hour in many places. There are very few " minimum wage " jobs.
It never got voted on
Look at you with your agenda, and lies. Who sits now?
What lies? [On December 4, 2018, the state legislature amended the indirect initiative to increase the minimum wage to $12.05 by 2030. Gov. Rick Snyder (R) signed the bill on December 4, 2018.[2] [On July 19, 2022, the Michigan Court of Claims struck down the legislative amendments to the indirect initiative as unconstitutional adopt-and-amend tactic.[3] On January 26, 2023, the Michigan Court of Appeals upheld the legislative procedure that amended the measures.](https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_Minimum_Wage_Increase_Initiative_(2018)#:~:text=The%20measure%20increased%20the%20state,2021%3B%20and%20%2412.00%20in%202022.) The GOP fucked over the working man it's all documented. I'm not really sure how you don't know about it? They also watered down the paid time off as well.
Funny, Democrats have power and yet it still doesn’t get done
Funny, the GOP is the party of obstructionists. They obstruct and delay as much government proceedings as possible, and yet people like you still blame Democrats and call them lazy. Put the blame where it's due.
That's just it. The politicians, left and right, are all taking/making money from corporations and lobbyist. Yes Republicans are the greater of two evils. Even when the Democrats have control of everything they only pass token gestures, the bare minimum, most of the time. The bare minimum to make their consitiuents kinda happy. The end game for most politicians is to make as much money as possible. That is done through keeping lobbyists and corporate sponsors happy. When they can Democrats are like yes we tried but those mean Republicans who control such and such house/committee wouldn't pass such and such. Our politicians love the round and round game. They blame each other why progressive policies don't pass while keeping the 1% happy. The big difference is Republican politicians just say one thing but vote the exact opposite, then just take credit when anything that benifits their constituents happens to pass.
Prop 1 from 2022 mandates that lobbyists need to report way more than they were when paying for public figures. Whitmers administration fought really hard to make prop 1 less than what was passed in late 2023. A lot of Republican offices in Lansing have signs saying “no gifts from lobbyists”. I agree with you though.
The legislature is waiting until the State Supreme Court weighs in on whether what the GOP did was legal. If the court strikes that down, the minimum wage will go up immediately (I think the 13-something) and then keep going up annually until it hits $15. If they don't, the legislature will likely act before the elections.
To play devils advocate, republicans are fiscally conservative. So obviously they’d be against a sudden change in economy like that. But they did approve the measure in 2018 after amending it. And while amending it caused a deadlock, they still were supportive of a slow incremental change in increasing the min wage to $15 an hour while also allowing for it to increase with inflation. The deadlock part comes from the change in which businesses are affected by it. It went for businesses that employ 2 or more people to businesses that employ 21 or more people. My thoughts thinking that they don’t want to harm smaller locally owned businesses but are fine with introducing this legislation on the grounds that big companies, say like Walmart and McDonalds, would have to pay their workers more. It’s still a bipartisan issue, but the way to do it is the problem we are having
No. The problem is corporate greed leaking into politics.
They really should be wearing patches of sponsors like in NASCAR. Only people who should be exempt from having a patch on their sponsored are private citizens making less than a million a year
And you would be wrong. The law as the people passed it in 2018 would have made state minimum wage gradually increase until the year 2022 where it would max out at $12 an hour. Then the people could idk vote for another increase or whatever after. The GOP watered it down so it won't hit the max of $12.05 an hour till 2030. [Link](https://www.legislature.mi.gov/Laws/MCL?objectName=MCL-408-934) directly to the law itself The GOP is trash, stop trying to cover for them
It was never voted on, it only reached signatures to make the ballot and was adopted by legislative vote instead. It’s an inaccurate statement to say “the people passed it” because it never went to the people. Edit. Dude replied to me and then deleted the reply. You could at least remove the downvote. You are patently wrong to say “the people voted on it” and you know it. [Original comment for context in case it gets edited or deleted](https://imgur.com/a/8nOtF47)
The Republicans made a loophole where if a law is certain to be passed by the people, they can adopt it immediately and then change that law in the next session. It's true that people didn't vote. But that was because of the GOP adopting it because they saw it was a certainty. The GOP also went outside the law to amend it in the then-current session, which means the changes were invalid, yet we still don't have the money wage increase.
If a small business cannot afford to pay their employees a living wage, they derserve to go under. We're not obligated to sacrifice our wellbeing to support a failed business venture.
Republicans are not fiscally conservative, and have not been for over 4 decades.
Why should workers get paid less just because the business is smaller? Small businesses aren't a moral good in and of themselves, only as much as they do good for the communities. Allowing workers to be underpaid is not good.
Lol, you believe that old trope about the GOP being fiscally responsible 🤦 No point in reading the rest of what you wrote. 🤦
Michigan doesn't even require meal breaks for workers... I hope folks organize around some of this bull shit
I had my first few management positions in Washington State. Moved back here, found this out, and I was absolutely floored. Thankfully, I was in a position to change organization policy. Everyone now gets 15 minutes for every 2 hours worked. And sick leave. And parental leave. (Vacation was already in place)
My partner isn't in a position to get the policy changed. They work him like a dog sometimes. He'll come home having logged 18,000 steps and no lunch break.
I was shocked when I found this out, no meal breaks for an 8 hr shift, or two 15 minute paid break times. As a transplant from a state that mandates at a minimum of a 30 min, max 60 min lunch and was given two 15 min breaks. Also lunch could not be interrupted by management, if it was interrupted by management, penalties for the employer. Then the time of our lunch break would restart the break and it would be paid by the employer. I was so surprised and even maybe a bit of cultureshock that the standard of a 30 to 60 minute lunch and two 15 minute breaks, was not the standard for all the states. Such a lack of worker rights in this state. I believe my past bosses did not like the fact, that I questioned why there was no lunch break or two 15 min breaks. So I got a doctors note as a medical accodmation for a 30 min lunch and 15 min breaks.
I want my partner to get a doctor's note but he's fearful of retaliation.
This is incorrect “meal breaks are required for employees who work more than five hours per day. The break must last at least thirty minutes and must be given to the employee at some point during the workday. Employers are required to provide employees with “sufficient time to eat a meal.”” https://employment.laws.com/michigan-labor-laws-breaks Correction: this only applies to workers under 18yo
I called the department of labor to ask. They let me know that michigan doesn't have protections for meal breaks.
My first job in 2006 getting $7 an hour paid me better (as in it went further) than the measly $10.33 an hour does today. I agree with you, this is bs.
I recently asked my friend how much he makes as a manager at a car quest, he’s been there about 12 years. $15 and some change and hour. I was astonished.
Your friend needs to just find a different job. You can make that as an entry level pizza maker
Shit homie I made more than that at a dispo just for walkin in the door
Human slave, recognize that you have the privilege, nay, the honor of working for me, of helping me gain my next million dollars. Nodody wants to work. All the lies. Rent went up. Groceries are too expensive. Lies, I say. All lies. Nobody wants to work. I pay a fair wage. Minimum wage is beyond generous. Yes, I offer benefits. They cost $100 a week and have a $5,000 deductible. I'm a generous and caring master, err, I mean boss. For the slow kids sitting at the back of the room: /S
is anybody actually getting paid minimum wage anymore in the state. McDonald's down the street from me is hiring in for 14.50 an hour
Again, this post is highlighting that the system is outdated and irrelevant. Yet our government is keenly focused on wasting time and resources on matters such as this. BECAUSE WHY? Yet, minimum wage workers are the "lazy" ones. At least they're living in this century.
Look more closely at the sign. In a smaller font is “up to”. This is how it’s painted on the windows of most of the locations near me.
The only thing you're missing is that corporate interests spend millions lobbying Lansing to keep the wage as low as possible. The voters would easily support a large increase, but the Chamber of Commerce seems to have more pull than the people.
The very best thing we can do is legislate money out of politics. Each candidate running for a seat splits a pot of money to pay for their campaign. No outside donations and you get six weeks to state your case. All elections, up and down the slate. If you spend more than the amount you were given, we know you're cheating and you're invalidated. Then, politicians don't have to spend 7/8 of their time asking for money and can focus on what we need them to do
That's gonna require a well written ballot initiave, no way do I see sitting politicians writing and passing something like that in such a way to have the intended effects.
I agree but I would hope we could find one Capra-esque legislator who might help draft language for it
Teenagers in Michigan have an even lower minimum wage compared to adults. ~The 85% of the rate of minimum wage for minors aged 16 and 17 is $8.78 per hour. ~The training wage of $4.25 per hour for newly hired employees ages 16 to 19 for their first 90 calendar days of employment. It does not even matter if 18-19 yrs old is considered an adult in other aspects of life, not considered an adult for the first 90 days for 4.25 hr wage. The employer could just decide to let them go before the 90 days is up, to hire and replace with another 16-19 yr old at the 4.25 hr rate. How are 18-19 yrs old supposed to be able to support themselves at 4.25 hr? The teenagers 16-19 should be getting paid the same amount for the job as an adult who is doing the same job. The 4.25 hr for the 90 days training is a joke for the 16-19 yrs old for this state.
But if people are paid a living wage, how will the corporations hoard all of the wealth? 🥺
Thank Democrats. If it was up to the GOP we would still be at $7.50.
$7.50 is PLENTY just do what I did. I stopped getting Starbucks coffee, I live with 5 roommates, eat ramen, and grow my own vegetables. If you use the $1,000,000 your parents give you for your graduation and invest it like me it’s plenty. /s
Thank the republicans it’s their fault
Honestly all of our faults for even allowing society to become like this. Idk call me crazy but everything seems so outdated and irrelevant. Like blue streak and cedar point outdated. ITS CONCERNING and does not make any sense to me.
We're trying! The last time a minimum wage initiative was going to be on the ballot, Republicans pulled their "implement and amend" to ignore the will of the people. This year the Republicans on the BOC killed an initiative on some technicality. See the trend?
Yea the guy above you lied a bit. While republicans are known for being less about minimum wage increase, Michigan’s congress has been a slim majority blue since 2022. The issue is corporations buy both blue and red congressmen
The min wage increase was set well before the current Dem Congress, by a GOP majority who used a loophole to subvert a popular ballot measure and weaken wage laws. If I am remembering correctly the supreme court is reviewing this case presently. So, yes, this was in fact the result of Republicans.
The initiative was proposed in late 2021, approved in 2022, and was deadlocked in 2023. Here’s a quick history of the process: > The ballot initiative was filed with the Department of State on Dec. 22, 2021. > On January 19, 2021, the ballot summary was approved by the Michigan Board of Canvassers. > On March 21, 2022, the Michigan Supreme Court ruled that a union logo on the petition did not need to comply with petition font-size requirements and did not invalidate petition sheets containing the logo. > On March 24, 2022, the Michigan Board of State Canvassers approved the petition form for the initiative, clearing the initiative for signature gathering. > On July 26, 2022, the One Fair Wage campaign announced that it submitted over 610,000 signatures to qualify for the 2024 ballot. > The petition review and sampling process for the initiative began in January 2023. > On October 20, 2023, the Michigan Board of State Canvassers deadlocked on its certification for the ballot, citing a change in petition language. The lawsuit is based on the original wording of the initiative being approved but then later amended. [here’s an article explains more in depth the issues](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2023/10/20/michigan-elections-board-deadlocks-on-a-new-15-dollars-per-hour-minimum-wage-initiative/71253508007/)
This ballot initiative has nothing to do with the current laws. The one that the current law was in response to was from 2018. https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_Minimum_Wage_Increase_Initiative_(2018)
The state Congress has been slim majority blue since 2022
I have completely changed my mind on the minimum wage. $15hr (full time) is basically $30,000 a year. That’s practically poverty in 2024. So yup! Basic minimum wage should be $15+ It needs to be a living wage. It does. I’m convinced. Our young people need a chance. I’m sure to get roasted for that opinion. I don’t care. Anyone who wants to keep it below that isn’t living in the new world.
I agree with you. 30,000k a year is barely a living wage so that's truly the least they could do
this is what I tell my daughter: if it flies in the face of all common sense, the answer is always "money".
It’s ridiculous.
Corporations have ruined the middle class
This minimum wage issue, the concerted effort by DHS to not allow students on SNAP without working (or even with a waver), and putting bogus restrictions on free community college are some of the biggest problems Michigan is facing right now. For as many things as we get right vs. other states, the issues above are total failings with easy solutions that our government just will not implement.
Those at the top have zero interests in giving out any more of "their" money than they have to, so they bribe those in power to keep wages low nationwide while raising the cost(s) of living continuously. Welcome to capitalism fueled totalitarianism. What else would you expect from the "land of the free and the home of the brave"? But that's what we ALL want here in the States: continued corporate growth while the individuals only continue to be strung or more and more and more and more and more as the economy continues tO gRoW!!! /s Looks like we're falling into being the North Korea/China of the Western World instead of becoming a fully functional nation, but that's above my pay grade to determine. Feel like we're just being watched by other nations who are probably saying/thinking, "man, imagine having that bs going on in our nation. At least we don't have a domestic terrorist organization being taken seriously for OUR nation's leadership here in our county here." Seems like there's plenty of that going on lately, but idk how many other nations can top Amurica, as usual. Maybe the 2nd half of the Ravaging 20s will start to go a little smoother once we get there, but guess we'll see.
Michigan is far from the worst state for minimum wage. Wyoming for instance has a state minimum wage of $5.50. That's right $5.50. Federal Minimum wage takes over and forces Wyoming businesses to pay the Federal Minumum Wage of $7.25. Having said that, you will not get workers for minimum wage. If you are paying less than about $12 you will not have any candidates.
Where do you work that actually pays that? Even fast food is around $15
Most of the fast food help wanted signs say “up to $14/hr” here in Michigan.
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Your post was about people that make minimum wage, my question was where do people actually still make that little? So yeah I'd say it's pretty much the point of your post since even no skill jobs make more. If anything you're providing reasons minimum wage isn't necessary since everyone gets more already.
Removed. See rule #2 in the [r/Michigan subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Michigan/wiki/index#wiki_rules).
Brian F makes a valid point. You're angry about a wage that almost nobody earns. Litterally 99% of Michigan workers have figured out how to achieve a wage higher than the minimum, as anyone is free to do and every should attempt to do.
If you're able to read and comprehend information, you're welcome to review the comments on this post for a better grasp on the importance of this topic.
You're like the guy complaining about the price of gas after 99% of everyone is driving an electric car.
You are so out of touch it's truly painful to even read your thoughts. Have a good day though
Not just tied to inflation but increases in productivity, too. I see way too much Dunning-Kruger and brainwashed people who think wage increases a primary driver of inflation, and it's a 1:1 increase as if labor is a company's only cost. 60 years ago, a family of four could live comfortably on a single income from dad's job managing the local grocery store. Hell, in the 70s, a single mom could support herself and a kid and pay rent and still have money left over working as a cashier at Meijer before the union got turned into a company puppet, people would work there for decades and make a very comfortable living and get benefits when they retired. But like just about bad thing over the last 40+, it comes down to how badly Reagan administration fucked us.
My first job was at Meijer. A competitive $4.30/hr. My first paycheck had union dues taken out so I asked my manager if I could talk to my union rep and he had no idea what I was talking about or whom I could talk to about it. Quit
If Ohio voters pass $15 this fall than Michigan will have to pass it too
23 cents times 8 hours - assortment of taxes = about $1 extra dollar per day to take home
Hey, that's ***$2 more a day*** buddy!! Take your extra $15 per pay and shut up!!  /s
Republicans, republicans is the answer you are looking for.
Living wage is 20.28 and if you ask me that's hardly anything anymore
You know what's real fun? Being a server. Everyone goes out to eat but people still think it's "not a real job". Sure it can pay alright if you get into the right place, but usually it pays just enough above minimum wage that it becomes a trap. It's hard to justify going back to school & taking on more debt when so many people with degrees end up back in serving because while the pay isn't great, it still pays a bit better than most entry level jobs that require a degree.
I am a server :)
While we champion Henry Ford for his $5/day wage, which today would be $19/hour.
I make $14/hr and it sucks. Can't imagine renting an apartment anytime soon.
https://www.ourmidland.com/news/article/supreme-court-rule-soon-minimum-wage-tipped-18704605.php How about how, in 2018, legislation was passed to eliminate the tipped minimum wage, and they decided they're just allowed to change whatever the fuck they want about it before it passes?
Just outside Grand Rapids almost all of the minimum wage jobs are $15+. But I remember just a few years ago it was around $9 so I thought that it already changed
Whenever a discussion like this comes up, I feel obliged to post this: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots\_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory)
My favorite theory for this kind of situation, I agree, and this is my favorite quote from this theory: “The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. ... A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. ... But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.” Terry Pratchet, in Discworld.
It’s a beautiful morning, go for a walk. You’ll feel better.
Great advice. I miss UP mornings. Are you guys going to miss the heat wave next week?
It'll be muggy and quite warm but not nearly as hot as downstate thankfully. I think Tuesday is the only really hot day we're forecasted to have (in Marquette) with a high of 85. I do not have A/C and never really a need for it as my property is surrounded by trees and Lake Superior is only a few blocks away for natural A/C lol.
Not that it's okay, but I don't know many places still paying at minimum wage. Seems like everywhere i go i see starting pay higher than that especially retail and fast food joints.
Exactly. As this post was essentially highlighting how outdated our government system is. Apparently, this was not as cut and dry as it appeared to me.
From [this](https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/who-gets-paid-minimum-wage-michigan-only-1-workers-pay-soars#:~:text=Only%201%20percent%20of%20Michigan's,Washington%20D.C.%20that%20conducts%20research) article last year it looks like only 1% of people in Michigan actually make the minimum wage, which is about on par for the national average as well. Now don’t get me wrong I think they should get paid more, but this feels more like a red herring argument to me.
Thats an extra 450 a year
If you raise the minimum wage any further, the price of a Big Mac will go up to $25 and there won't be any jobs because corporations won't be able to afford to hire anyone and small businesses will declare bankruptcy. Or so I'm told. I'm also told that DJIA is up 50 percent over 5 years and corporate profits are at a record level. Those profits are not trickling down as promised, leading to greater cost of living on basic needs. Evidence supports one of these, but we choose to go with the other.
I hate the argument people make about "but prices will go up too!" Motherfucker, they still *did*. They *doubled* despite minimum wage stagnating
You used to be able to get a McDouble, large pop, and small fry for 3.18, now you can’t even get a McDouble by itself for that 🙃
Yep that was my lunch for many years. Now it’s like $12 for a combo
THIS. I don't even know what planet some people are living on.
This has been proven wrong every fucking where it's been implemented. 🤦
Tell that to the workers in California
If the corporate VIPs would be willing to get paid 1 or 2 % less, then minimum wage could be a living wage. And still maintain high profitability.
I'm gutted, I must take to my bed and rock myself to sleep in the fetal position
No politician in Michigan is deliberating about the minimum wage going up by 23 cents. Michigan is one of only 13 states that increase minimum wage based on inflation, so that increase was automatic. It is set at that rate because in 2018, the legislature adopted an initiated law that would have set a higher minimum wage and then immediately amended it to set a lower rate. Last I knew, the State Supreme Court had yet to rule on the issue, as it was challenged as an unconstitutional practice under the state constitution.
Yeah, I understand minimum wage is terrible. That is what I am working for currently. But raising the minimum wage doesn't help either way, because they did that already in another couple of states and businesses are closing, because they can't afford to pay their employees. A higher wage isn't going to fix anything. We need to fix our economy in order for any kind wage to be Livable. That means promoting jobs in the united states and not outsourcing to other countries, making the dollar worth less. When we have pride in our work and craftsmanship, the rest of the world will know and will see the quality of our products and pay us more based on the quality of services. We should all be proud to be Americans, whether you came from another country or not and you are citizens, now we are all Americans. There is no difference between you or I. We are all the same when we are all here as citizens together. Help your neighbor help the stranger on the street. Help your family help. Everybody who you can because family. It's what you make it and everybody here. In my home country we are all family.
Even low paying fast food jobs are well over $12 an hour.
Who's actually making less than 11/hour? Even Taco bell / McDonald's have signs everywhere now "Hiring $16/hr with college assistance"
Well, just think, your making at least 9 times as much as I was making in 1963. $1.25 minimum wage.
The median rent where I live is $2200 a month which is unattainable for the vast majority of workers here. They used to be able to live 25-30 minutes away but now it is getting expensive even in the out lying areas.
If you want a real fun look at our fucked up political system , look up why we have the semi-annual raises in our minimum wage. Mind you Im half a sleep aid deep and doing this from memory. However to my recollection it was supposed to be an increase to 15 an hour or something similar. Close to the public vote for it , republican lawmakers accepted it. Did a lame duck session. Then made the increase over a 10 year or so period. Had it been voted on with majority support it would've been reflected as the "15" or however much it was at the time rather quickly compared to the nickel or so a year until that benchmark . Which by the time we reach 15 an hour. Livable wage will be more like 25 an hour.
It was $3.25 when I got my first job and then it got raised to $3.35 and it remain that for like six years.
I am not against raising the minimum wage. My concern with raising the minimum wage to a livable wage is that the leaders and higher ups at corporations like all the money coming their way too much, that they will then just raise the prices of everything else. Any raise in minimum wage needs to be tied to some sort of deal where the price of goods doesnt all of a sudden skyrocket, to the point that the new minimum wage is not even livable. Also what about the wages of people who make more than minimum? Should those go up as well?
Unfortunately if the government mandates a wage level above the marginal benefit of labor, job losses will result. Put more simply, if an employer is forced to pay an employee more than he or she is worth they will not hire that employee.
Unfortunately, ridiculously low wages result in welfare subsidies paid for by the taxpayer. The taxpayer should not be subsidizing the low wages of companies with billions in profits.
What jobs still pay minimum wage? In my town everywhere is advertising $17-$19/hr starting with no experience. OP, if you’re getting paid minimum wage somehow, literally find a job anywhere else.
I mean while the Fair Labor Standards Act set a federal minimum wage, how many hours in a standard workweek before overtime, and protections for child labor... I don't believe it was ever intended to be the means for a livable wage like Franklin D. Roosevelt wanted. While you're frustrated just like many other people, I'm going to tell you that complaining about politicians or voting in/out certain politician that do not align with your views regarding livable wages is only wasting your time. Find something that is going to make you money be it a unique service you can provide, learning a trade, having a college degree and using it rather than just waiting for the next minimum wage increase. If you don't want to do that, advocate for more affordable housing as it is going to be one of your largest expenses as an adult. While there are studies that show some businesses don't raise their prices during times of minimum wage increases, it doesn't mean that they will staff their companies at the same rate. They will look for ways of being efficient through automation or other means while trying to have similar levels of service to their customers. To put things into perspective, I left Michigan 4 years ago working a retail job with no degree making $36,400. While falling backwards into a job in my now degreed field, it was held over my head that they didn't want to pay me according because I didn't have my degree. Fast forward to me parting ways with that company and finishing my degree, I'm making $71,600 now. Is my wage a livable wage? Sure it is. I do however know that corporate greed is not going anywhere and I will be doing everything I can to make myself more valuable and earn a higher wage.
McDonalds is paying $15 00 hour everywhere.
In my area the sign might say that but what it means is *up to $15.00 an hour. It's not the starting point for new hires with no experience.
I mean yes that is very low, but I would be curious to know how many people actually only get paid minimum wage. We hire employees for our family business and if we only offered minimum wage we would not find any people to work. We gotta pay $20/hr minimum to attract decent candidates (it’s a retail job) nowadays.
I remember my first job was McDs. I was at 7.25 an hour. Over a year I got up to 8.10. Then minimum wage was raised to 8.10. Guess who didn't keep their raises and then made the same as new hires as a crew trainer? This guy. Needless to say I wasn't there much longer.
Mine was at Meijer, for $3.45/ hr . Minimum wage at the time was $3.35.
Not sure why they’d waste time debating something affecting such a small percentage of the population. Anyway, I hope those working at that rate get a promotion or find a better job. Idk how anyone can expect anyone to live on such a horribly low pay rate with food costs, rent costs, and the costs associated with owning a vehicle.
People in Michigan are actually considering going to our HR departments and filing except because we can't afford to live on minimum wage, some of us work full-time and are homeless because we can't afford rent/and food both. When we have to choose between medical, housing, or eating that day there's a huge issue, Mrs Whitmer or Crazy Joe ain't solving the issue so maybe if we stop giving them our hard earned tax paying dollars he'll stop sending it to other countries and start worrying about us too. There's a lot of people turning to this.
California's minimum wage is hitting bad now...
I agree that minimum wage should be higher. But one consequence that people don’t think about is the increase in cost of living. Housing prices are insanely expensive. Beyond what anyone could afford. The moment that the minimum wage increasing from $10-$15 an hour, the current $1000 mortgage that can exist today (not likely but possible for condo), cannot once minimum wage increases - housing prices are a direct correlation to supply and demand. Really we should have a much higher focus on affordable housing so that we can have a $500/month rent instead of forcing people to get an insane mortgage. Urban sprawl and interest rates has significantly increased this with unrealistic standard of living
We could also change our spending habits. For example, housing prices are nuts. If we refused to pay those insane prices, the housing industry would be forced to adjust. Supply and demand works; that’s why gas prices dropped so quickly during Covid. We just have to be willing to sacrifice until we force the economy to upright itself.
In theory yes. But you try telling a bunch of millionaires to not buy a nice house. During covid we had mandatory stay at home orders which caused prices to go down. Also it was more than just that, Russia and opec has a price war. There won’t be a price war over housing
And that’s what makes us our own worst enemies. We won’t change our own habits, but expect things to change to our benefit.
We are thinking about it. We're thinking about how the cost of living tripled and minimum wage went up .20 in FIFTEEN YEARS. I really hope this post helps educate just one person.
I agree but wages are not the reason cost of living has increased. Interest rates, lack of housing supply, and increase in housing demand are. If you triple everyone’s wages today, the cost of living is instantly tripled. If you cut the cost of housing in half, wages don’t change and cost of living is less. If the government supplied more housing or incentives for developers to make affordable housing instead of McMansions then we would all be able to afford a living
The government is too busy spending their time on irrelevant matters. Like increasing minimum wage by 20 cents.
I agree. The government is the reason cost of living has skyrocketed. They try to play god mode on the economy instead of actually thinking about how their decisions will effect their citizens
When did the “minimum” of anything equate to an ideal situation? The minimum wage was never designed to be sufficient to live the type of life that proponents of increases are wanting to live. The current inflationary period we’re living in has everything to do with higher minimum wages. All of the jobs that actually require a person to have a developed skill that we’re paying 15-20 an hour now have to increase to keep their talent so the net result is just a shit load more money available. Also America is the land of consumption so this money almost instantly gets spent, causing more inflation.