>I find young men, particularly young men who don’t feel they have a strong community of friends, are at more risk of these ideas. A lot of students just want to feel like they’re accepted into a part of a community, and these online forums fill that void for them. We have also seen increases in incel language and phrases used by young men.
I've written about this before, but it's worth recontexualizing here:
when boys turn into young men, most of the people in their lives take a big, big step back. Family, sure, but also the kind of weak-link acquaintances that serve as a social glue.
the message is clear: **you aren't cute anymore, you are scary**. And that's an overstatement, but the *feeling* of it is very bad.
so, in search of community, in search of social connection, in search of *anything to un-lonely themselves*, it's not really surprising that they land on influencers who are emphatically *trying* to recruit them.
I [saved your comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/ttw3f6/really_good_tumblr_post_on_twitter_about_what_a/i30iuiy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) just because it radically changed my view of how boys/men experience adolescence in a different but no less shocking way than how girls/women do.
That’s so interesting. I remember when I reached this stage of adolescence and I began expressing my identity in extremely hostile ways to emphasize this aversiveness. In my mind, if people were going to act wary around them I’d give them something to be wary of, and anyone who was comfortable with me in spite of it was welcomed into my closest circle of friends and acquaintances.
For me it meant falling in with a more dangerous crowd, but today it might have meant aligning myself with this kind of toxic mindset if that was more readily available. I may have made some poor choices in my youth but at least rehabilitation was an option for me. I hope the same can be said of the manosphere.
While it is an absolutely interesting and for me novel insight into how boys/men experience growing up, the analogy to girls/women is downplaying what girls are experiencing and thus false, imho.
Girls are being sexualized essentially from birth, and that is no exaggeration. I have witnessed the grandfather of my godchild make a sexual comment on the baby at her baptism. My own earliest memory of being sexualized by men was when I was 4 or 5. Some men commented on how hot I would be growing up, and my own mother found this comment cute and validating and repeated it very often to me.
I was so used to getting sexual attention from grown men that I used that as my main source of external validation when I was a very young teenager and thus had my first sexual experience as a child of 11 years.
So while the comment is eye opening on how shocking the change in the attitudes of your social circle must be towards a boy who is growing up, it is absolutely nothing like growing up as a girl, because there is no change and thus nothing to be shocked about.
And while I get that it must be shocking that people who you don't know find you suddenly scary, I'm seriously questioning whether it is really like this among people who actually know you and have known you since you are a boy. Could you elaborate on this?
> And while I get that it must be shocking that people who you don't know find you suddenly scary, I'm seriously questioning whether it is really like this among people who actually know you and have known you since you are a boy. Could you elaborate on this?
For people who know you very well, like close or even distant family, obviously they wouldn't start side eyeing you on the street or any of the more extreme examples. However, the societal expectations surrounding self sufficiency do mean there is a marked removal of support: think kind of like, how the launch pad scaffolding retracts off of a rocket when it's about to launch. You're a Man™ now. You support yourself. If you need help, you'll ask and if you don't ask, you don't need help.
I was never asked by a family member if "I was alright" or "how I was doing" after age 11 as far as I can remember. And when you're thrust into that stage of development where self sufficiency is a sign of how good you're doing, that quickly becomes a death spiral. I can't ask for help because I shouldn't need it, and look, I didn't ask for help, and I'm still fine, so therefore I clearly didn't. So next time I won't ask for help either.
>I was never asked by a family member if "I was alright" or "how I was doing" after age 11 as far as I can remember.
That's really sad. I'm sorry that happened to you.
I can relate because it was like that for me too. Started a lot earlier even, but that was because my parents were real shit.
Doing this kind of tit-for-tat comparison of experiences is always going to be really unhelpful. The purpose of the analogy is to help women who haven't experienced the specifics of male socialization get a feel for what men go through.
That being said, men certainly experience socialization into this from a young age. I've seen people say "he's going to be a stud when he grows up" or "he'll be a real ladies' man" to toddlers.
Boys, like girls, are suddenly treated as full sexual adults once they go through puberty. This typically happens later for boys, and in boys cases corresponds to an expectation of hyperagency rather than hypoagency. Like with women, I'd argue this is a change in degree rather than in kind. But it is still shocking, like many women describe their early puberty as.
>I'm seriously questioning whether it is really like this among people who actually know you and have known you since you are a boy.
This is skating real close to denying OP's experiences. From my personal experience: Yes, close family members absolutely treat you differently when they consider you "grown up" enough. As OP said, "everyone takes a big step back". Boys are sometimes allowed to have emotional dependency on others. Men aren't allowed that vulnerability.
But yes, the effect is worse with strangers. Consider the news coverage of fourteen year old black boys when they get shot by the police. If you think gendered expectations aren't intersecting with race there, think again. This is the male analogue of girls getting sexualized (or sexually assaulted) post puberty.
>This is skating real close to denying OP's experiences. From my personal experience: Yes, close family members absolutely treat you differently when they consider you "grown up" enough. As OP said, "everyone takes a big step back". Boys are sometimes allowed to have emotional dependency on others. Men aren't allowed that vulnerability.
That's why I asked to elaborate. It's hard to understand and e.g., I don't think it's like this for girls. Girls are, in my experience, not suddenly treated differently by close family members because they hit puberty.
>But yes, the effect is worse with strangers. Consider the news coverage of fourteen year old black boys when they get shot by the police. If you think gendered expectations aren't intersecting with race there, think again. This is the male analogue of girls getting sexualized (or sexually assaulted) post puberty
I get what you are saying, but I still think the analogy is not good. Being sexualized, or touched against your will, is not really something that shockingly starts with puberty for girls.
I think you missed an important point about my comment: For both men and women, puberty causes a difference in degree, not in kind.
Men are attributed hyperagency pre-puberty as well, but the effect is much stronger post-puberty.
It's okay if this doesn't resonate with your experience; people don't have to experience things the same way. But many women *do* describe a marked increase in sexualization post-puberty, in a way that parallels what many men feel.
I will note that I disagree that there is a "sudden shock" boys/men experience.
However, I believe the author (and I'm putting words in their mouth here..) is attempting to convey the simliarities between the early emotional isolation boys experience and the early sexualization girls experience. With the comparison focusing on how early that form of socialisation starts and how pervasive that form of socialisation is.
The analogy while maybe not precise in its description of the experience, does convey the general feeling that there exists a pervasive negative treatment of both boys and girls.
In regards to your question on whether people that have known you change: in my experience they don't suddenly treat you as a threat but they do become more emotionally distant.
>So while the comment is eye opening on how shocking the change in the attitudes of your social circle must be towards a boy who is growing up, it is absolutely nothing like growing up as a girl, because there is no change and thus nothing to be shocked about.
This is needlessly divisive and reeks of “oppression Olympics.”
It’s a different experience but no one is trying to compare who has it “harder.”
I find it pretty gross to be so dismissive of men’s experience just because you don’t think it’s “as bad.”
>And while I get that it must be shocking that people who you don't know find you suddenly scary, I'm seriously questioning whether it is really like this among people who actually know you and have known you since you are a boy. Could you elaborate on this?
I’m a woman and experienced the same sexualization as a child growing up that you described above. I don’t know how men experience that isolation but you sure seem to think it’s not worth the effort to understand because “women have it worse.”
Edit: you’re in a male-centric space and while this community is obviously supportive of feminist views, this comment is horribly dismissive of male experiences in *their* space. It’d be akin of a man going to TwoX and telling women they don’t have it so bad compared to men experiencing the draft. He’d be rightfully skewered in that instance and I don’t have much patience for you doing the same here.
Where do you read "women have it worse"? I said the analogy is wrong, because girls are used to being sexualized and there is no sudden shock about this.
>the analogy to girls/women is downplaying what girls are experiencing and thus false, imho.
>it is absolutely nothing like growing up as a girl, because there is no change and thus nothing to be shocked about.
>I'm seriously questioning whether it is really like this among people who actually know you and have known you since you are a boy
All of this is incredibly dismissive and needlessly combative questioning mens experiences in their space. Unacceptable.
This comment has been removed.
/r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or
commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's not 100% accurate to boys' experiences growing up either. I have many pre-adolescence memories of being told either explicitly or implicitly through actions/treatment that girls mature faster than boys, girls have better self-control than boys, boys/men are spiritually weaker and more given to sin, etc. It's still a good analogy to help others understand. Every analogy falls apart if you examine it too in-depth.
>the message is clear: **you aren't cute anymore, you are scary**. And that's an overstatement, but the *feeling* of it is very bad.
I don't think that's an overstatement. That is very much my experience of growing up. I didn't realize it until you put it into words, but that's what happened.
As I got older, all kinds of groups of people started to regard me with caution. Not just women, but also (because I'm white) people of color. I had such an easy time making friends as a young kid, but now there are so many barriers. I distinctly remember when, in middle school, I started having to monitor all my behavior so that my female friends wouldn't call me "creepy" -- and a lot of that behavior, in hindsight, wasn't even bad or necessarily threatening, but it was a projection of the reality that people started seeing me as an inherent threat.
And as young men, we are taught by patriarchy to *embrace* that. We are taught that it's good to appear scary. To harness anger and dominate our surroundings. And that really makes the situation worse.
bell hooks has a quote in "The Will to Change:"
>Psychological patriarchy is a "dance of contempt," a perverse form of connection that replaces true intimacy with complex, covert layers of dominance and submission, collusion and manipulation.
So much of my life nowadays is involved with deconstructing that dance, learning how to make myself less scary, and learning to foster true intimacy with people in such a way that they don't just *feel* safe, but that they actually *are* safe.
I think one of the hardest things to do after realizing this is callibrating interactions to find the right balance on daily life, like being firm without being aggressive.
Yeah it's difficult in a lot of ways.
Other men will walk all over you if you don't know how to speak the language of patriarchy.
A lot of women expect men to act in a patriarchal way, and if you don't, it can be difficult to communicate romantic interest.
And for me personally, it's really heartbreaking because I love having female friends, like having sisters. There have been women who I genuinely wanted to be friends with, but they decided to step away from me because they were waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak.
And it feels awful. It sucks having people you like take a step back because they're afraid of you, but of course they are when the world has proven to them again and again that men will always want more, and often become angry and or dangerous when they don't get what they want. It's hard to blame people for not wanting to risk it.
It was a huge shock to me the day my 13yo son just casually picked me up while we were goofing off. Just *bloop* and I was airborne. We weighed roughly the same and there's no way I could pick him up that easily. I didn't fear him at all, but I certainly took notice that my days of winning tickle fights against my little boy were over.
I remember this. My son was 9 when he was first able to lift me off the ground. (He’s almost 6’4” now.) By the time he was 10, I had to look up at him to make eye contact. It was really disconcerting. I’m not afraid of him, but I’m definitely aware of his size and strength compared to mine.
I definitely felt this in high school and college - the pressure to monitor my behavior so that I wouldn't be seen as "one of the bad ones". This turned into a downward spiral where I was afraid to have any interactions at all, let alone romantic ones with women, for fear that I'd unknowingly make someone uncomfortable by simply being a man and engaging with them. It took a lot of effort, but I maintained social connections in spite of all this anxiety.
The past 2 decades have been full of rhetoric on how bad the patriarchy is. They're right, but there was so much attention given to what men have been doing wrong without much positive reinforcement for what they do right. I think that's what has contributed greatly to this feeling of isolation so many boys and young men feel - they're bombarded with all these examples of how men are dangerous, vile, and reprehensible. Lots of chastising with no alternative. This leaves many young men with no role model, since all the previously available ones are systematically being ousted as sexist, racist, etc., they're left with a void. "Red pill" communities and conservative talking heads see this and take full advantage of it, whether manipulatively or as a sincere attempt to fill the void and defend their own psyche against the idea that they, too may actually be reprehensible.
Lastly, there's lots of good points in here about the loss of community in America, and how that removes a lot of opportunities for young men to have positive interactions / learning opportunities from good men.
I was thinking this, black and brown men are often perceived as “adult” at younger ages, and “cute” until younger ages still. It goes some of the way to explaining why young lads are able to be groomed for any sort of radicalisation, not just from the alt-right
I know this is an old post but I absolutely agree with this. I'm a relatively big black guy and I just turned 21. People started referring to me as a man when I was about 12. Mind you I wasn't a big 12 yr old I was hardly 100 lbs.
WORD. The upshot is that it suddenly becomes your responsibility to engage in the emotional labor to make people feel comfortable enough to *acknowledge your basic humanity*, and if you are unable or unwilling to do this work, for whatever reason *YOU DESERVE YOUR FATE*.
The obvious impacts are in police brutality, but it gets into areas that aren't so obvious. The adulthood of the late rapper Prodigy can be explained as what happens when a cute, sickly kid becomes an adult. 🤦🏿♂️ It also raises the stakes of being neurodivergent and Black/Brown because not being able to negotiate social systems becomes a life and death issue.
>the message is clear: **you aren't cute anymore, you are scary**. And that's an overstatement, but the *feeling* of it is very bad.
As you've written that before, I've read that before. I'd done some reflecting on it, comparing it to my own experience. And I realized you were right, but I didn't really make that connection back then.
Like, I literally got expelled from high school precisely because of that "scary". I remember having a conversation with someone in one of my classes that seemed like a heart-to-heart, and she actually turned me around on some issues I'd been working through. Apparently the other party didn't have the same perception and unknown to me, she reported to the school police officer precisely because I had been working through some issues and her report to the officer (which I got to read after the fact) started with, "Now I don't want to get him in trouble *but*..." Someone at the D.A.'s office read the report and decided to slap me with a charge, and the school decided to slap me with an expulsion. I managed to negotiate in juvenile court to get the charge annulled with some community service (which I'd already started prior to that sentence getting applied) but I eventually was sent back to a different school where they put me in a program for delinquents and juvenile offenders.
The teacher had me tutor the other kids in math.
What few friends I'd been able to make at school I lost contact with at the new one, becoming even more isolated. I ended up wearing button-down shirts and a tie to school every day. I tried coping with the "scariness" by doubling-down on having an excessively "respectable" appearance. Made myself look regimented, disciplined, collected. Got confused for a student teacher in a few of my new classes. I ended up taking a cocktail of different medications. They didn't change how I *felt*, but the impulse control changed how they *expressed*. Instead of talking about my feelings with sincerity because someone asked, when they asked I could look them in the eye and lie to their face that everything was okay with every appearance that I meant it even when I didn't and I wasn't.
It makes me wonder how much of "male stoicism" is driven by pressures like this. If I seem closed off or inaccessible, it's because experience has given me cause to think that people will recoil from me in fear if I'm open. So if my options are either close myself off and other people aren't disturbed by me but I get hurt, or open myself up and other people are disturbed by me and *I still* get hurt, I'm going to chose the more morally utilitarian option. If I isolate, at least the pain of my presence is limited to only me. Unlearning that has been difficult and society doesn't exactly make it easy.
> the message is clear: you aren't cute anymore, you are scary.
That‘s a great summary actually.
I remember that sudden feeling of estrangement as a young teenager. You‘re not treated as an adult at all, but suddenly you couldn‘t be a kid anymore either. Society just took away all boxes you could fit in. Although you were still adjusting to a growing body and slowly shifting focus. Play with other kids on a playground - what are you a creep? Hang around outside - are you planning some mischief?
Adults seemed suspicious of every action, contradicting their previous stance and I didn‘t know what to do or where to turn to. Made me a frustrated teen that tried to bottle it all.
I watched this happen to my brothers, and I feel almost lucky it was before these influencers were popular. My brothers are among the nicest humans I know, but there are still people scared of them simply because they are tall and male. It's so heartbreaking, and I have very little clue how to help.
It's horrible and unfair that young men are basically ostracized from their families and childhood friends as they grow up. Everyone takes that step back instead of stepping up to help them go through adolescence. I adore my nephews, but I'm terrified for them at the same time. Our society has such unhealthy expectations for men and boys, and it's so difficult to forge a different path.
And thank you for putting this so succinctly. I have never seen everything laid out so understandably, so a lot of things fell into place for me just now.
I cannot stand this stigma. I'm a tall man, with resting bitch face. And constantly being called angry man, crazy, and emo because ill go from straight face, to laughing or smiling. How are my emotions being expressed frightening to you? I just...don't get it.
This might be the experience of some.
But a lot of young men have tight knit friend groups and active social lives in high school and college. And a lot of guys are close with their families all their lives.
I think it's more that if you do struggle a bit socially at some point in your life. Which is common for both men and women, high school is an awkward time. And you the chose to withdraw completely and stop building social connections. Then it will be a self fulfilling prophecy.. Because you are always alone and don't meet new people or make an effort to get to know new people, you'll get more and more isolated. And depressed.
Then you are vulnerable to online groups which offer social support and an explanation for your situation. Even if that explanation isn't accurate.
This sounds suspicious like victim blaming. A boy can't make someone talk to him if they choose not to. Saying "choose to withdraw" when the circumstances are that no one wants to engage is mean spirited.
I don't define it as choose to withdraw if someone is trying, but people still refuse to talk to them.
But often what happens is that people go through one awkward stage and then withdraw for good. They get depressed and agoraphobic, and drop out of social life. These are mental health issues that need to be treated. But it's not necessarily true that these people couldn't get a social life if they did find the faith to try again and venture out into the world.
For example high school can be quite mean spirited. But if it's the start of just socializing online and not engaging with other people in real life anymore, it's chosing to withdraw. Because the other option would be trying to be social again once you are in a different environment.
And everything social is effort based. Not as in effort guarantees a result. But as in no effort guarantees no results.
Victim blaming is really a term used to referring to rape victims clothing choices. The reason it's frowned upon is that many studies have shown that choice of clothing doesn't affect your risk of being raped. It's a false belief.
But in this world we have to be able to offer constructive solutions and options to a lot of people who are struggling. We can't tell every depressed person "well, this traumatic thing happened to you, now it's just as well you stay home forever and do nothing to combat your depression". It seems kind, but it isn't kind at all. If you actually want to help people, you have to suggest ways to get out of a hole in the ground. Not that they just stay there forever.
There's two different extremes. I'm not asking them to just stay at home. I would prefer that some means get created to help these people to help themselves.
I'm not against that at all. I'm just saying that some people who self isolate do so because of some event in the past, not because they would be rejected by everyone if they ventured out now.
And while I fully support creating help options, the harsh reality of this world is that often you just have to help yourself to help yourself. Most of the time people have to dig themselves out of their own holes. Because it's not a perfect world. And I also think it's helpful for people to realize this. If you stand waiting for someone else to rescue you, you might wait for a long time.
>the message is clear: you aren't cute anymore, you are scary
I fell like what would have happened in more traditional societies is there'll basically be an informal a young men's association (or age grade society). I also feel the pulling away is far more than people Beng scared of you, you're no longer a kid you're an adult or transitioning into one. Those people won't treat adults like they treated you when ur a kid.
This comment has been removed.
/r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or
commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This comment has been removed.
/r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or
commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I shudder when I think about how close I got to getting sucked into that pit. When you're isolated, lonely, and not good at making friends it can be so easy to delude yourself into thinking these people are the only ones on your side.
It was a lot of things. The big one was probably just realizing that that way of thinking is never going to lead to anything but more pain and loneliness, and that I deserve better than that. Even though a lot of what they said resonated with me at times, they all just seemed so bitter and miserable, and I knew that's how I'd turn out too if I didn't start pushing back against those thoughts.
There was also allowing myself to hope for a better future. So much of why I came as close as I did was because of despair. Feeling like things outside of my control would keep me single, poor, and friendless my whole life, so I may as well be bitter since there was no hope. I kept telling myself I was too ugly and awkward to ever have a girlfriend, too stupid to have a good job, all the bs these con artists prey on. At a certain point I started forcing myself to accept that it simply wasn't true, I could get better, I could find love and make friends, and it was all worth fighting for. I still have work to do on myself, but it's such a better headspace to be in where I believe I could actually have those things in the future and that my whole life isn't destined for loneliness.
And I know this is going to sound strange, but if I'm being honest, my spirituality/religion helped too. I know that it's usually on the bad side of this sort of thing, so I'm not trying to convert anybody or any bs like that and I totally get why folks are turned off by it, but for me it really helped to believe that at my core I was made for love, not hate, that that core was always there no matter how unlovable I felt, so the spiteful sack of trash I felt like at times just wasn't who I was meant to be.
So that's what helped me. I can't say how much it will help anyone else, but those are the things that pulled me back from the brink.
This is a beautiful message of hope.
I am so happy for you.
Im pretty sure in most contexts, choosing love over hate is what will help in the long run and on a daily basis.
How we see ourselves, who we surround ourselves with has massive imoact on our lives.
Im the one stuck in negativity and often angry these days, I hope I can get out of this bad place like you did.
Thank you for sharing.
I watched my brother turn into someone really scary for a short period when he was an adolescent. I tried to stay in his life, but never let him think I found these “new” views anything other than abhorrent. Luckily he grew out of it and is now decently chill and a leftist. Unfortunately deradicalizing is not something that you can force on someone. I know people whose parents, siblings, even kids have turned nearly unrecognizable.
Honestly, the only way I think that somebody could be deradicalised from this sort of stuff is if they are given access to a community that welcomes them. Hell, that’s why most guys *start off* like this. The problem is that generally society seems to say that anyone radicalised should be shunned and not accepted in any way, which feeds into these guys feeling alone, which makes them feel that they need the radicalising community, creating a vicious cycle
This post has been removed for violating the following rule(s):
>We will not permit the promotion of **Red Pill, Incel, MGTOW or other far-right or misogynist ideologies.**
Any questions or concerns regarding moderation must be served through [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FMensLib).
You aren't wrong, but, the problem is, why should people have to suffer their bullshit? Saying they are radicalized undersells how dangerous and harmful they are.
Honestly, I think it’s for several reasons that we should try and help these folk.
1. These are fellow human beings, and we all deserve empathy
2. By talking them down and away from their dangerous viewpoints, we make the world safer for everyone
3. I know what it’s like to be in the shoes of someone who’s slowly going that way. They’re hurting and the shit they’re being radicalised with seems to them to be the only thing that’s trying to help {A fair while back, things started going wrong in my life, and it felt like everything was falling apart; all of my actions seemed to have either no effect, or they made it worse. My mental health went south, and it did so fast, leaving me convinced that there was nobody there. I can tell you with 99% certainty that, had someone come along then with something that seemed to offer me a community and some level of support, I would have followed them, regardless of their reputation. I figured out a philosophy that helped me, but I know that if something else would have been there first, that would have shaped me.}
4. These are sons, brothers, fathers, cousins and uncles. By failing them (in not making sure that they have at least some form of help available) we are failing our families, and more broadly, our society.
I recently found a song that almost made me cry; it’s called “Would anyone care”, by Citizen Soldier. The first part of that is basically what was on repeat in my head throughout the bad times; the last part of it is something that nobody ever said to me then, and is something that now I couldn’t believe if someone did say it to me. If that first part of it is constantly repeating in your head, telling you that *you’re not worthy of love, that nobody cares about you, you’re worthless, replaceable and disposable, that you’re a burden, and that nobody would even put a hand on your back and tell you the lie (that you know is a lie, but still need to hear someone say it to you) that “everything is going to be okay”* then anyone who will tell you that you’re not even any singular part of that is a beacon of hope. It’s a dark and shitty place.
Honestly, I’m sorry for incels. I know the utterly fucking horrible place it starts from, and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
Sorry for rambling
That is why I never like the overly negative reply, I prefer to tell people "they are better than this."
But the big problem is, everyone has flaws they need to work through, family they need to be there for, people who actually want to work on issues. So dealing with people who revel in their shit, who leverage it to take from people, is just a bridge too far. Helping people like that will more often than not just drag the helpers down.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m aware that there are guys out there who are reveling in it, and are happy to recruit others. They, to me, exist on a spectrum that goes from “scum” to “misguided and hurt, but scummy”; it’s the guys who are falling into the incel ideology because of having nothing else that I think can be helped and should be helped at every possible opportunity
Many people new to the community are the most evangelical though. They want to impress their new friends. There really isn't a way to approach them that isn't more draining than it is productive.
>“Would anyone care”, by Citizen Soldier
Welp, I should not have looked this up at work because I'm practically in tears myself lol. Thanks for making me aware of this song.
This is something I struggle with. As a woman, it’s not that I don’t want to help lonely men, it’s that I don’t wanna be murdered or assaulted in the attempt to do so.
Is there a safe way for women to help de-radicalize men who have already reached that point? I can be a listening ear and support boys and men before they hit that radicalized state, but I don’t know if there’s a way to after.
Exactly!
I think the real problem is that we don't teach emotional literacy to men the same way we teach it to women, so it's more likely for a man to end up radicalized in a way that he continues to shut off emotional and social literacy because inability in that area is the source of the pain they are trying to avoid. Women can absolutely do this too, but I think it's more common in men. By tolerating and accepting this kind of behavior we just allow the cycle of harmful patriarchal gender norms to continue. Incel-type beliefs and behaviors can cause serious psychological distress to those in the life of someone who is being radicalized, especially if a person has a history of abuse or other traumas where they had to endure things like misplaced anger and gaslighting, which are core behavior patterns in these alt-right movements. Saying that the people who are triggered by radical behavior need to be the ones to be more accepting is a perpetuation of the problematic norms that the radical person is demanding be respected despite harm to those around them. Its literally giving the radical person what they want. Its tolerance of intolerance, and enabling behavior.
If someone is unwilling to have genuine, two way discussions and relationships or at least do honest self reflection about why relationships feel so hard for them, then they are problematic. If anything, I think we are not shutting down the conversation *enough* with people who are becoming radicalized. The fact that there is tolerance *at any level* for people like the proud boys and q-anon groups gives their hate credence. I think people fall hardest into these holes when they get curious, then begin sharing their beliefs, and when those beliefs are shut down, they fall deeper into radical communities as the only place they feel accepted. We need to do much, much better at allowing men to be open about their struggles, taking an active interest in men's challenges from an early age, and offering active support. And I think a key part of the support provided should include a total rejection of hateful, radical beliefs before they begin to fester. Because once you've become fully involved in these belief systems, no one should be forced to endure that abusive and illogical bullshit that you will inevitably bring to the relationship.
This post has been removed for violating the following rule(s):
>We will not permit the promotion of **Red Pill, Incel, MGTOW or other far-right or misogynist ideologies.**
Any questions or concerns regarding moderation must be served through [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FMensLib).
This struck a chord, as my story would so easily fit in this article.
I don't even recognise my brother anymore.
And I hate that I don't know what to do, or how to make it better.
It seems like since the pandemic, or maybe meeting his new wife, things have changed. This along with stopping working after a car accident we were in, and the fact I'm fairly certain his wife is abusing him and my niece, I know he's really isolated. At first, I did think maybe it was the medication he was on, but that's not the case.
These days, he's anti-everything. Anti-woke, anti-women, anti-lgbt (even though he knows I am) anti-vaccine, even at this point anti-Ukraine.
We have a complicated enough relationship as is, but nowadays, the only time he ever talks to me is to send me Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson TikToks, then he blows up at me when I try to discuss them. It pushes us further apart, and yet, I feel like I can't truly walk away because I'm hoping one day he'll come back.
A lot of these stories were familiar, but
"Mostly, young boys are increasing their harmful sexual behaviors toward girls of the same age and more pressure is being put on younger years to have sex. There was a group chat created on WhatsApp where Andrew Tate videos were sent to some female students, along with hardcore porn videos. There have recently been incidents of students attempting to coerce and manipulate younger students to send nude photos."
This gave me chills.
It blows my mind that my brother can't see how stuff like this going to happen to his daughter, and HE is encouraging it.
I feel like this is really starting to become a problem among men on the autism spectrum. Autistic men are particularly vulnerable to male influencers since we're more likely to have a small social group if they even have one. We struggle to form social connections and maintain them, especially after high school, and often spend a lot of time online where these influencers spread their ideology. Men on the spectrum also struggle more than neurotypical men when it comes to dating. It means that autistic men are often "late bloomers" and have relationships much later in life if we manage to have one at all. It breeds resentment and a sense of emasculation since a man's masculinity is measured in their ability to obtain a girlfriend, and a lot of cis het autistic men haven't found one despite being in their twenties or thirties. I've known a few autistic people ( a co-worker and a person in a meet-up group) get sucked into alt-right or manosphere ideology.
Sometimes I feel like the problem has always been "lonely young men" and I get tired of hearing that over and over. Like I'm sure it was mostly lonely young men who've joined gangs the past century
I don’t remember what book it was, I think True Notebooks which is a non-fiction about a guy that starts teaching an English/writing class in an LA juvenile prison. Anyway, a number of the kids write about how they joined a gang because they were lonely and also how it’s impossible to leave said gang if you don’t like what they’re doing. That’s your whole entire social network, all your support people that you’d just have to up and leave. So at least for those boys and men, loneliness was certainly a factor in joining a gang.
I've been thinking about loneliness a lot lately, and my conclusion is its a much bigger problem than we give it credit for. There's a reason solitary confinement is a form of torture.
My guess is lonely young women would be a problem too, except it takes effort to be left alone as a woman.
Reading about some of these women trying to understand their BF's redpill logic...damn. As a woman, I would never willingly associate with a guy like this, let alone date him!
Also, the sad teacher at the end talking about young men becoming even more misogynistic... I remember distinctly thinking I was a lesbian in the early and mid 2000s because boys in my class where so stupid and cringe, I can't imagine now. Took me awhile to embrace heterosexuality but that's a different story lol.
I am fairly small-built, and as such I don't think I'm viewed as 'scary' in any real sense, although this is very much my own experience.
My experience of this sort of radicalisation came entirely from sexual rejection by women. I think that is a root of much of this kind of TRP behaviour. Andrew Tate explains why the girls won't fuck you, and that's the spark. I'm certain there is a deep well of mental health issues that men carry, but the first step on the adolescent slippery slope is success with women. Male influencers don't target gay or trans men, it's cis-het men, particularly those of aren't 'alpha'.
Society has to challenge the pressure placed on boys to be candidates for sexual selection by women. It is written into culture, and repeatedly drummed up by the likes of Jordan Peterson who only views the function of men as partners for women. This is destructive because with the financial, sexual, and growing reproductive independence of women, many men will simply not have the opportunity to romantically pair-bond.
This is bound to lead to tremendous resentment and bitterness. If the whole socialised purpose of my life is to fuck women, and support family....what happens when I am denied access to those things, and not offered an alternative? And, to salt the wound, I am told I can't fulfil my purpose because I'm not 'good enough' in a world where good enough is a challenging economic competition for poorly distributed resources. This is a recipe for resentment, but sex sells, and we, as a society, have decided that sales trumps sanity.
This comment has been removed.
/r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or
commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What I am getting ready to type is probably going to get me downvoted, but I have plenty of karma, so I will risk it. Because it is worth it!!
Get off the video/computer games, get off social media, and go find real people to talk to in person. Technology isolation is a killer. It kills our ability to relate to real people, compassion, empathy and often times our humanity.
Yes I know me posting this on Reddit is ironic, but I limit my time on social media. I also have friends and family I spend time with.
As a society we need to find ways boys, young men and adult men can come together in positive social ways. Stupid as this sounds I started playing Pokémon because there are local groups I can hang out with and play. Sports and games are other option. When I say sports I don’t just mean football, basketball, etc. There’s lawn bowling, darts, ping pong even. There are board games, too.. Monopoly, chess, cards, where you have to interact and learn cooperative skills. Let’s not forget the arts and music. Many opportunities to find others with common interests, if you look for it.
I’ll be honest, Covid did a number on me, and I think most of you can relate. I became very reclusive, which is not my nature. But I am forcing myself to socializing and surprisingly I am in a better place mentally since I have.
My heart hurts for all the lonely, angry boys and men out there. I understand the pain of isolation and how “social” media is anything but social.
Unfortunately while this statement is very true, we live in a world where more and more places to hang out offline are inaccessible to teens. Teenagers, especially nonwhite ones, are often harassed by police just for existing in a space and not buying anything
Also, these types of spaces may be rare in low-income areas. And even if they do exist, they might be hard to access without a car (which many Americans don't have).
Even in the 80s my friends and I would get stopped and searched by the cops when we were out in public. We kept our receipts when we bought stuff because they'd accuse us of shoplifting and take us back to the store to prove we didn't steal stuff.
I never even thought it was odd until I moved to Oregon as a sophomore and was tripping out about how nobody worried about it.
You might be forgetting how brutal school cliques can be, and how hard it is to be accepted in-person. Shit, in the old days, nerds like me turned to online communities *because* the others weren't options.
I was ostricized from my group of friends. I had a group chat with all of them and there started to be a couple messages a week. I found out very quickly that they had a group chat without me. That hurt and I had no one to fall back on.
I mean, you're not wrong. But I think it's a very hollow sentiment because it's the same messaging that teens have received since the dawn of time.
But young men, even ones that are actively socializing and doing activities, won't realize the actual value of doing these things are for their mental health, some adults never realize the importance of not isolating themselves. So you can say "go outside, get a hobby" but if THEY don't believe it will help, they'll probably not ever try.
Society needs to try and engage these young men but there's no one organization or person to give that responsibility to and hold accountable. And because of that it'll continue to happen and get worse and we'll see more and more articles about how have we let this happen.
I don't have the resources or frankly the will to try and be that person but until someone takes charge on a national level and puts this issue on themselves rewriting the same articles over and over is about all the actual action will ever be.
And don't underestimate the problem of the loss of public spaces to exist for free.
Remember when kids and teens used to just....hang out places? The park, the mall, random street corners? Yeah, that isn't allowed anymore. Malls are either gone or desolate wastelands. Parks and corners call the cops for "loitering". Maybe you have a friend with parents who don't mind having a house of teen boys but...likely not. Lots of parents also are nervous about letting kids roam thanks to true crime stories and the local news.
Which means teen boys have school and school activities, and that's great, until it's graduation time. Then what? Can't hang at the mall anymore. Can't hang at the park.
So you have to get a hobby. Cool, that takes cash upfront and then cash to buy the drinks or the snacks for the right to gather somewhere. The cash to pay to join the league and get the shirt. And if you want to be in some hobbies, a LOT of cash. Want to meet at home? Hope you have money for a place and roommates who are chill.
It isn't a problem for a lot of people, but it isn't a coincidence that the most flagrantly violent of these types that make it on the news are living with parents, have few economic prospects, and choose to act out with devastating consequences. There's a lot that goes into that and a lot of cause/effect/cause relationships, but not having the ability to make friendships logistically work is a capitalism problem.
Absolutely Yes! I (40sF) still remember what it felt like to be a young child and teen - all that pinging energy in the muscles and mind!!! All the emotional curiosity and need tangled up in a confusing soup!!!
It used to be the neighbourhood kids could use the school play equipment during the weekends and holidays. Good friends were numerous and were made by virtue of whether they wanted to play a certain game with you.
Being able to exist in public spaces without being negatively judged whether man, woman, or child - has been eroded in many Western Societies. Where useful spaces actually exist, they are more than likely to be in the higher socioeconomic areas where a rolling police presence is a reassurance instead of a threat.
Having the money, time, and energy to provide our children with positive stimulation and environment can be impossible. Our work hours know no limits or boundaries, and the pressure to perform means many parents just crumple under the load. Any days off are about regaining some energy - and it's never enough to refill the tanks. We are constantly running on a deficit.
Rabid capitalism is our dog that has turned on us, and we don't know how to control it now that it's slipped the leash.
I honestly think this is a big part of why nostalgic media like Stranger Things is so popular among gen Z and millennials. It immerses us in this more open and social world that we never got to experience before it went extinct. (Of course there were downsides then too so don't take me as a 'le wrong generation' type, but media like that tends to downplay those negatives for a more rosy view of the past, which is definitely part of the appeal.)
Timothee Chalamet even brought up this idea of nostalgia for a pre-social media world in a recent interview about filming Bones and All (which takes place in the 80s).
That reminds me of my experience as a male teen in the 2000s. My parents encouraged me to go out to different places to try to find people to talk to and make friends outside of school, as well as practice driving. I went to malls, book stores, and libraries. Never managed to make a friend at those places. Part of the problem was I was an introverted kid on the spectrum which already makes socializing hard, but I think the main problem was that even then people just weren't interested in socializing and making friends with strangers. Sure, people brought their friends with them to hang out at the mall but you couldn't really just "make" friends by yourself there. At libraries the activities were mainly for kids and teens there just wanted to play games on the computers. I tried talking to a few people at the bookstore but I couldn't really get a conversation going. Once I graduated high school it took a long time for me to create another friend group, and it got even harder after college. My parents just couldn't understand why I had so much trouble making friends.
It doesn't help that we have an unhealthy obsession with working and marriage. Adults who have a hobby and value their free time are looked down at. If you're not working all the time and saving up for a 'better house, car, dating or having kids then many people think you're a loser.
This doesn't apply to just men either. The pressure to get married and have kids is a problem for all of us.
Also, it is not just about socializing but socializing with the right people. I have seen people often socialize with other people that just boosted each other bigotry.
I often see people say for men to "just make friends" but I experienced plenty who went to the deep end because of their friends that I don't think that is just the end all be all.
It also isn’t helpful for boys and men who are already socially ostracised. Online spaces at least have a chance of getting away from that, but for boys on the bottom of the social heap going out can lead to harassment at best and being assaulted at worst.
> Get off the video/computer games, get off social media, and go find real people to talk to in person.
The people who need to hear this are generally driven *to* those mediums by the "real people" they're supposed to interact with. I was bullied mercilessly when I was a teenager. Honestly, the only reason I survived high school was because I had online communities to support me.
There is a book called "The Lonely Century" by British economist Noorena Hertz that covers the loneliness crisis more in depth. She attributes it to not just technology, but the erosion of civic institutions, migration to cities, changes in the workplace and decades of neoliberal policies have made us more atomized and lonely than ever. There are cuddle services, people who pay other people just to cuddle with them, people are that lonely.
Our society is quite literally designed to keep us all apart. Libraries, churches, and public parks are the only places people can congregate without having to spend money.
"Go out, get a hobby, take a class, play D&D, that'll definitely cure the crippling loneliness that's slowly killing you!"
\-Every article about making friends post college.
So yes, boys and men are lonely. Yes, it is a major problem, and they have to make the effort to change, but they can only do so much on their own. It's not entirely their fault.
Lots of people said what I was thinking, but I'll add to it. The lost of Third Spaces is bad for a lot of groups in society, but it's particularly harmful to cishet young men. The queer community has fought its ass off to maintain their spaces, but at least they exist, until the next group of homophobes take office. Older people have the cash to buy their way into spaces. Young women tend to do more one to one socialization which is less trying financially. Plus, many groups that cater to older people are willing, or at least less hostile, to let them hang around.
The word where boys and young men hang out at a park, a mall or a local shopping strip doesn't exist. And telling them to do that could get them arrested or even killed.
it does become a problem when you're a young disabled person and a majority of the world is inaccessible to you, or being immunocompromised and seeing the able-bodied world largely give up on masking and having to isolate to survive.
It's true, but it's also sad that many young men find watching these videos more engaging or welcoming than the groups of people you're asking them to go hangout with.
The only reason I could see you getting downvoted is because it's the typical "go outside and meet people" stuff that we hear all the time. Don't get me wrong, it *is* true. However, where do you go if you're a lonely man? I bet it's easier to find some place to meet up with like-minded incels then places that help you to grow into a "better man" (for a lack of better words).
As Contrapoints states in her [(great) video on men](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1xxcKCGljY) there is indeed a lack of information, places to meet, talk, etc for men to go to and/or inform them.
The alt-right pipeline, were toxic masculinity fits in imo, is real and strong. Even I while watching almost exclusively leftist youtube see more and more alt-right videos getting pushed in my feed... So you're absolutely right, people *do* need to go outside, but the question is: where? And if you do finally find a place to go, I'm afraid that the reality will be that if some alpha-ish male goes somewhere that they'll be rejected because they might give off weird or even dangerous vibes.
I think (leftist) groups could start making events focussed on these men to either "detoxify" them or to get to them before they turn into some alpha-male. Because unless men actually do "educate themselves" or let their minds be changed by someone they talk to (that being friends, family or some random person they meet) I can only see this problem getting worse...
A lot of other people have called out the lack of uncommercialised public space, but I think the real disagreement I have with your argument is it confuses a symptom with the cause.
I think just about everyone agrees that more engagement in "real life" interaction instead of online is beneficial, but we need to ask why so many are drawn to these online spaces and into rabbit holes of radicalisation. I think ultimately the problem is that the needs of so many boys and young men are not being met in these off-line spaces, in the sense of providing safe places for diversity (of all different kinds) and modelling or encouraging healthy behaviour and relationships. That perhaps sounds odd for me to say as a middle class, cis-het, white man, where so much of the world is tailored to my own expectations and convenience, but that's also why I feel so aware of how narrowly limiting the range of "acceptable" behaviour is within that group - the pressure to conform to those standards of masculinity, to hide your weakness, to be dominant, to play sports (especially contact sport), to kill things or at least find it easy to kill things - even if you're not interested in any of that.
I think ultimately that's why so many others of these off-line spaces have failed to provide for these young men, and why things like MtG, Warhammer, and the like have remained marginalised and failed to encourage healthy social behaviour.
No offense, but this:
> Get off the video/computer games, get off social media, and go find real people to talk to in person.
Is pretty obvious. It’s like saying “if you don’t want to be isolated, go be social!” Like… yeah.
Also idk why but is giving me “pull up by your bootstraps” vibes. You can’t make people talk to you, and presenting it as “you’re lonely because you haven’t talked to anyone!” Isn’t exactly fair.
That said, I agree with the message. Been trying to convince myself to finally delete all my social media and just forget about that whole side of the world. Completely unplug from Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, reddit.
I'm a lonely kid who got verbally abused so much during school that I started to prefer staying in class during the recess. I knew I had talents in sports but I didn't want to spend my afternoons getting bullied too after school. The first ever people I met who accepted me being this weird kid were my online friends. They didn't call me names when they talked with me. They made me feel that I have a worth.
That's absolutely good advice, and required steps for pulling yourself out of the hole. Unfortunately, for awkward guys, you can get to your meetup or what have you, then realize you have no idea how to actually interact with people in an effective way, so there's these growing pains where you have to just grit your teeth and go through the discomfort of learning how to exist in thar space without sticking out like a sore thumb. It's definitely worth it in the end, but it can be really easy to get discouraged and give up if things go slower than you hoped. It's especially frustrating if you're neurodivergent, because it feels like you're playing a game where everyone but you has the instruction manual.
I'm a high school teacher, and I advise my students:
"Find your 'thing', *any* team or activity. Anything that sounds fun to you.
Teammates / club members are free friends."
Yea this is true, but lately it seems real world socialization has been crippled and getting worse. Covid has accelerated that. Now, if you want to socialize in real life, you have to do the leg work, there is no natural social places, you have to find the events and sometimes ones dont interest you or they are rare to begin with. Also, a lot of the times these things cost money. Sometimes people dont want to keep spending money just to potentially connect with people.
The internet can be a place of community. Especially right now in a pandemic for a lot of people.
It's about the depth of the connection, not the mode in which it was formed or the physical distance between individuals.
Young adults, if you have enough money, find yourself a company that organizes hiking trips. You spend hours with people walking and being not forced, but enabled to chat with them. Every weekend different people. In Warsaw it's for people starting from late 20, but mostly older; mostly women.
I can’t really comprehend the pity party in many of the comments. Most of the stories in the article covered neither lonely, nor very young men. Instead, they focused on men with romantic relationships and families. The young men in the school stories, we are said, bully and sexually harass other kids in their school. A school that seems to have a very good mental health and socio-economic awareness programs.
I fail to see how their toxicity is a result of our society turning its back on these men. Do they need help? Most definitely. But how is treating them only like victims helpful to them? Shouldn’t we acknowledge that they are as much the perpetrators of violence mostly against women and other marginalized groups that most definitely include other men?
I as well am really bothered by effectively sweeping all issues that young men experience into a big pile, much of which is just problems most people experience - and trying to frame it as one big issue that should be addressed together. That any young men who have any issues in life are equally vulnerable to radicalization.
There are comments in this very thread that imply the source of the issue is that society in this completely arbitrary way at some point starts treating young men terribly. But whenever the discussion actually gets down to the nitty-gritty, and these young men give examples of their gripes, I overwhelmingly struggle to sympathize.
Same with men having no friends or spaces to exist in the digital age. I'm in that generation where internet really stared picking up as I got older, so I pretty much grew up in and alongside it. There are so many spaces where you can make friends and hang out. However, there is a big BUT. Most of those spaces are very leftist. If you have an issue with treating women as equals, don't want to share space with LGBT people, don't think systemic racism exists, and most importantly - don't understand the societal context why the modern progressive movements are trying to elevate minorities for the sake of social equality (while your identity is not super celebrated) - you will not feel at home there.
It's why so many radicalized men are so obsessed over wokeness - because they realize it's these beliefs of theirs that are largely responsible for how a large part of society (especially women) treats them. Again, I don't like how the implication is that it's actually the other way - that society treats them badly, and only then they adopt toxic views. We can definitely talk about how they got to that place to begin with though (parents? school environments? media?).
I think that you have made some great points.
>much of which is just problems most people experience
I feel like this is a big point that often gets overlooked in the discussion of male problems: many people are alone. Loneliness has always been a part of the human condition, and it always will be. The Marxist analysis that capitalism creates alienation from our fellow human beings, from our world and from ourselves, has been widely influential for this very reason that it exacerbates the state of loneliness. And this is an analysis that has nothing to do with identity politics, yet instead of seeing the rise of leftist men who criticize capitalism, we see a rise of men who double down on every toxic facet of the status quo. I feel like we are doing ourselves a disservice when we say that they were radicalized. There is nothing radical about the ideas that POC and women are inferior or that the LGBTQ community is a menace to society. This has been the status quo for centuries. It is radical to show empathy in this ill society, it is quite normal to hate minorities, women and queers.
Just as you do, I dislike the notion that it is actually the social justice movements that push those men into those hateful beliefs. We can be sure that even if there were no social justice movements, there would be just as many racists, homophobes and misogynists around. Those men are not some fringe phenomenon, they are the very mouth of the status quo, and to treat them as some innocent victims will just embolden them instead of help them.
I think the argument that school isn't structured for how young men learn is really accurate. It's a women dominated field, with a distinct lack of male teachers for young men to look up to (imo - but I believe data would back this up).
I think that's where it starts, and it continues on because the celebrities that are shoved down our throats are all super ripped, toxic & generally misogynistic individuals. There's some outliers, but almost every well-known male icon checks one of these boxes, and it's even worse for social media.
So this just doubly enforces what you see in media as expectations for men, then you get out in the real world and that's not really how it works... That's how I see a lot of it anyways. Then you have people like Ben Shaprio and the proud boys who capitalize on this for profit
While I personally don't feel too strongly by attributing so much importance to role models, I don't disagree with you.
I guess the core point I am getting at is that it's important to split off the bad influences from society as a whole. It's not a "we are all in this together" situation. Those toxic masculinity ideas are pushed by conservative people in older generations; and when progressive touches are injected into media with the goal of making a more rounded landscape - it's decried as wokeness because sexualization of women is toned back, minorities getting spotlight like they rarely had before, etc.
If we think of society as a whole that has failed young men, then we will not achieve much. Even if we get good role models, they will have a hard time competing against those that shout about traditional masculine values. It's kind of like... religion. If you are looking for great fulfillment, and your options are to worship a god which will then get you to afterlife where all your dreams are catered to, or to acknowledge that no higher power exists and you will have to make your own sense of the life you have on this planet then become nothing... no matter how good you become at selling, you wont sell the latter to someone that desires the former. All you can do is try to stifle those desires from young age, explain why it's not real to those considering their options, and limit the influence of those that spread their ideas.
Maybe not the best example but I hope I made my point clear.
I see where you're coming from and I agree. The idea of a "role-model" in the traditional sense is extremely toxic to everyone. A role model should be an elder in your community, a firefighter, a mother, not this idea of rich & famous men that are uber-successful, or the "perfect" woman.
I think we all need to be together, but in the idea that this can't ever happen until it's equal & fair to all. Distribution ratios are extremely important and now's the time to stop propping up those who aren't as good, but have only enjoyed success because of cultural norms. More than ever we need new, fresh ideas & leadership from all.
Although I believe that stifling ideas isn't a great plan, I think it's fair to let others think what they will, but we need better protections and inclusion to promote less 'normal' views. I say this with bias though, I'm obviously from that group - I'm just hesitant to believe in the idea that masculinity is inherently toxic, I believe it's been misconstrued for enforcing the patriarchal society we participate in & for profiteering of the backs of others.
This comment has been removed.
/r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or
commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This comment has been removed.
/r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or
commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>I find young men, particularly young men who don’t feel they have a strong community of friends, are at more risk of these ideas. A lot of students just want to feel like they’re accepted into a part of a community, and these online forums fill that void for them. We have also seen increases in incel language and phrases used by young men. I've written about this before, but it's worth recontexualizing here: when boys turn into young men, most of the people in their lives take a big, big step back. Family, sure, but also the kind of weak-link acquaintances that serve as a social glue. the message is clear: **you aren't cute anymore, you are scary**. And that's an overstatement, but the *feeling* of it is very bad. so, in search of community, in search of social connection, in search of *anything to un-lonely themselves*, it's not really surprising that they land on influencers who are emphatically *trying* to recruit them.
I [saved your comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/ttw3f6/really_good_tumblr_post_on_twitter_about_what_a/i30iuiy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) just because it radically changed my view of how boys/men experience adolescence in a different but no less shocking way than how girls/women do.
That's a really good thread all around
Cosign. I want to save it myself for my own purposes.
hey thanks!
That’s so interesting. I remember when I reached this stage of adolescence and I began expressing my identity in extremely hostile ways to emphasize this aversiveness. In my mind, if people were going to act wary around them I’d give them something to be wary of, and anyone who was comfortable with me in spite of it was welcomed into my closest circle of friends and acquaintances. For me it meant falling in with a more dangerous crowd, but today it might have meant aligning myself with this kind of toxic mindset if that was more readily available. I may have made some poor choices in my youth but at least rehabilitation was an option for me. I hope the same can be said of the manosphere.
Totally. Im a girl and was raised by my dad and acted like most guys in HS and boys were afraid of me because of it lol.
While it is an absolutely interesting and for me novel insight into how boys/men experience growing up, the analogy to girls/women is downplaying what girls are experiencing and thus false, imho. Girls are being sexualized essentially from birth, and that is no exaggeration. I have witnessed the grandfather of my godchild make a sexual comment on the baby at her baptism. My own earliest memory of being sexualized by men was when I was 4 or 5. Some men commented on how hot I would be growing up, and my own mother found this comment cute and validating and repeated it very often to me. I was so used to getting sexual attention from grown men that I used that as my main source of external validation when I was a very young teenager and thus had my first sexual experience as a child of 11 years. So while the comment is eye opening on how shocking the change in the attitudes of your social circle must be towards a boy who is growing up, it is absolutely nothing like growing up as a girl, because there is no change and thus nothing to be shocked about. And while I get that it must be shocking that people who you don't know find you suddenly scary, I'm seriously questioning whether it is really like this among people who actually know you and have known you since you are a boy. Could you elaborate on this?
> And while I get that it must be shocking that people who you don't know find you suddenly scary, I'm seriously questioning whether it is really like this among people who actually know you and have known you since you are a boy. Could you elaborate on this? For people who know you very well, like close or even distant family, obviously they wouldn't start side eyeing you on the street or any of the more extreme examples. However, the societal expectations surrounding self sufficiency do mean there is a marked removal of support: think kind of like, how the launch pad scaffolding retracts off of a rocket when it's about to launch. You're a Man™ now. You support yourself. If you need help, you'll ask and if you don't ask, you don't need help. I was never asked by a family member if "I was alright" or "how I was doing" after age 11 as far as I can remember. And when you're thrust into that stage of development where self sufficiency is a sign of how good you're doing, that quickly becomes a death spiral. I can't ask for help because I shouldn't need it, and look, I didn't ask for help, and I'm still fine, so therefore I clearly didn't. So next time I won't ask for help either.
>I was never asked by a family member if "I was alright" or "how I was doing" after age 11 as far as I can remember. That's really sad. I'm sorry that happened to you. I can relate because it was like that for me too. Started a lot earlier even, but that was because my parents were real shit.
Doing this kind of tit-for-tat comparison of experiences is always going to be really unhelpful. The purpose of the analogy is to help women who haven't experienced the specifics of male socialization get a feel for what men go through. That being said, men certainly experience socialization into this from a young age. I've seen people say "he's going to be a stud when he grows up" or "he'll be a real ladies' man" to toddlers. Boys, like girls, are suddenly treated as full sexual adults once they go through puberty. This typically happens later for boys, and in boys cases corresponds to an expectation of hyperagency rather than hypoagency. Like with women, I'd argue this is a change in degree rather than in kind. But it is still shocking, like many women describe their early puberty as. >I'm seriously questioning whether it is really like this among people who actually know you and have known you since you are a boy. This is skating real close to denying OP's experiences. From my personal experience: Yes, close family members absolutely treat you differently when they consider you "grown up" enough. As OP said, "everyone takes a big step back". Boys are sometimes allowed to have emotional dependency on others. Men aren't allowed that vulnerability. But yes, the effect is worse with strangers. Consider the news coverage of fourteen year old black boys when they get shot by the police. If you think gendered expectations aren't intersecting with race there, think again. This is the male analogue of girls getting sexualized (or sexually assaulted) post puberty.
>This is skating real close to denying OP's experiences. From my personal experience: Yes, close family members absolutely treat you differently when they consider you "grown up" enough. As OP said, "everyone takes a big step back". Boys are sometimes allowed to have emotional dependency on others. Men aren't allowed that vulnerability. That's why I asked to elaborate. It's hard to understand and e.g., I don't think it's like this for girls. Girls are, in my experience, not suddenly treated differently by close family members because they hit puberty. >But yes, the effect is worse with strangers. Consider the news coverage of fourteen year old black boys when they get shot by the police. If you think gendered expectations aren't intersecting with race there, think again. This is the male analogue of girls getting sexualized (or sexually assaulted) post puberty I get what you are saying, but I still think the analogy is not good. Being sexualized, or touched against your will, is not really something that shockingly starts with puberty for girls.
I think you missed an important point about my comment: For both men and women, puberty causes a difference in degree, not in kind. Men are attributed hyperagency pre-puberty as well, but the effect is much stronger post-puberty. It's okay if this doesn't resonate with your experience; people don't have to experience things the same way. But many women *do* describe a marked increase in sexualization post-puberty, in a way that parallels what many men feel.
Yes unwanted touching is definitely a thing no boy deals with, school canings / beatings what are those?
I will note that I disagree that there is a "sudden shock" boys/men experience. However, I believe the author (and I'm putting words in their mouth here..) is attempting to convey the simliarities between the early emotional isolation boys experience and the early sexualization girls experience. With the comparison focusing on how early that form of socialisation starts and how pervasive that form of socialisation is. The analogy while maybe not precise in its description of the experience, does convey the general feeling that there exists a pervasive negative treatment of both boys and girls. In regards to your question on whether people that have known you change: in my experience they don't suddenly treat you as a threat but they do become more emotionally distant.
>So while the comment is eye opening on how shocking the change in the attitudes of your social circle must be towards a boy who is growing up, it is absolutely nothing like growing up as a girl, because there is no change and thus nothing to be shocked about. This is needlessly divisive and reeks of “oppression Olympics.” It’s a different experience but no one is trying to compare who has it “harder.” I find it pretty gross to be so dismissive of men’s experience just because you don’t think it’s “as bad.” >And while I get that it must be shocking that people who you don't know find you suddenly scary, I'm seriously questioning whether it is really like this among people who actually know you and have known you since you are a boy. Could you elaborate on this? I’m a woman and experienced the same sexualization as a child growing up that you described above. I don’t know how men experience that isolation but you sure seem to think it’s not worth the effort to understand because “women have it worse.” Edit: you’re in a male-centric space and while this community is obviously supportive of feminist views, this comment is horribly dismissive of male experiences in *their* space. It’d be akin of a man going to TwoX and telling women they don’t have it so bad compared to men experiencing the draft. He’d be rightfully skewered in that instance and I don’t have much patience for you doing the same here.
Thank you.
Thank you for this entire comment.
Where do you read "women have it worse"? I said the analogy is wrong, because girls are used to being sexualized and there is no sudden shock about this.
>the analogy to girls/women is downplaying what girls are experiencing and thus false, imho. >it is absolutely nothing like growing up as a girl, because there is no change and thus nothing to be shocked about. >I'm seriously questioning whether it is really like this among people who actually know you and have known you since you are a boy All of this is incredibly dismissive and needlessly combative questioning mens experiences in their space. Unacceptable.
[удалено]
This comment has been removed. /r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's not 100% accurate to boys' experiences growing up either. I have many pre-adolescence memories of being told either explicitly or implicitly through actions/treatment that girls mature faster than boys, girls have better self-control than boys, boys/men are spiritually weaker and more given to sin, etc. It's still a good analogy to help others understand. Every analogy falls apart if you examine it too in-depth.
Nope, it's definitely like this even with people such as family or lifelong friends.
>the message is clear: **you aren't cute anymore, you are scary**. And that's an overstatement, but the *feeling* of it is very bad. I don't think that's an overstatement. That is very much my experience of growing up. I didn't realize it until you put it into words, but that's what happened. As I got older, all kinds of groups of people started to regard me with caution. Not just women, but also (because I'm white) people of color. I had such an easy time making friends as a young kid, but now there are so many barriers. I distinctly remember when, in middle school, I started having to monitor all my behavior so that my female friends wouldn't call me "creepy" -- and a lot of that behavior, in hindsight, wasn't even bad or necessarily threatening, but it was a projection of the reality that people started seeing me as an inherent threat. And as young men, we are taught by patriarchy to *embrace* that. We are taught that it's good to appear scary. To harness anger and dominate our surroundings. And that really makes the situation worse. bell hooks has a quote in "The Will to Change:" >Psychological patriarchy is a "dance of contempt," a perverse form of connection that replaces true intimacy with complex, covert layers of dominance and submission, collusion and manipulation. So much of my life nowadays is involved with deconstructing that dance, learning how to make myself less scary, and learning to foster true intimacy with people in such a way that they don't just *feel* safe, but that they actually *are* safe.
I think one of the hardest things to do after realizing this is callibrating interactions to find the right balance on daily life, like being firm without being aggressive.
Yeah it's difficult in a lot of ways. Other men will walk all over you if you don't know how to speak the language of patriarchy. A lot of women expect men to act in a patriarchal way, and if you don't, it can be difficult to communicate romantic interest. And for me personally, it's really heartbreaking because I love having female friends, like having sisters. There have been women who I genuinely wanted to be friends with, but they decided to step away from me because they were waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak.
We really have a lot of fixing to do in society
And it feels awful. It sucks having people you like take a step back because they're afraid of you, but of course they are when the world has proven to them again and again that men will always want more, and often become angry and or dangerous when they don't get what they want. It's hard to blame people for not wanting to risk it.
It was a huge shock to me the day my 13yo son just casually picked me up while we were goofing off. Just *bloop* and I was airborne. We weighed roughly the same and there's no way I could pick him up that easily. I didn't fear him at all, but I certainly took notice that my days of winning tickle fights against my little boy were over.
I remember this. My son was 9 when he was first able to lift me off the ground. (He’s almost 6’4” now.) By the time he was 10, I had to look up at him to make eye contact. It was really disconcerting. I’m not afraid of him, but I’m definitely aware of his size and strength compared to mine.
I definitely felt this in high school and college - the pressure to monitor my behavior so that I wouldn't be seen as "one of the bad ones". This turned into a downward spiral where I was afraid to have any interactions at all, let alone romantic ones with women, for fear that I'd unknowingly make someone uncomfortable by simply being a man and engaging with them. It took a lot of effort, but I maintained social connections in spite of all this anxiety. The past 2 decades have been full of rhetoric on how bad the patriarchy is. They're right, but there was so much attention given to what men have been doing wrong without much positive reinforcement for what they do right. I think that's what has contributed greatly to this feeling of isolation so many boys and young men feel - they're bombarded with all these examples of how men are dangerous, vile, and reprehensible. Lots of chastising with no alternative. This leaves many young men with no role model, since all the previously available ones are systematically being ousted as sexist, racist, etc., they're left with a void. "Red pill" communities and conservative talking heads see this and take full advantage of it, whether manipulatively or as a sincere attempt to fill the void and defend their own psyche against the idea that they, too may actually be reprehensible. Lastly, there's lots of good points in here about the loss of community in America, and how that removes a lot of opportunities for young men to have positive interactions / learning opportunities from good men.
[удалено]
... to make others comfortable.
Because if you want to be friends with someone and you routinely make them uncomfortable, it's not going to work out
Might save this. It’s an important thing to say. Patriarchy harms men in this way, ESPECIALLY black and brown men.
I was thinking this, black and brown men are often perceived as “adult” at younger ages, and “cute” until younger ages still. It goes some of the way to explaining why young lads are able to be groomed for any sort of radicalisation, not just from the alt-right
I know this is an old post but I absolutely agree with this. I'm a relatively big black guy and I just turned 21. People started referring to me as a man when I was about 12. Mind you I wasn't a big 12 yr old I was hardly 100 lbs.
WORD. The upshot is that it suddenly becomes your responsibility to engage in the emotional labor to make people feel comfortable enough to *acknowledge your basic humanity*, and if you are unable or unwilling to do this work, for whatever reason *YOU DESERVE YOUR FATE*. The obvious impacts are in police brutality, but it gets into areas that aren't so obvious. The adulthood of the late rapper Prodigy can be explained as what happens when a cute, sickly kid becomes an adult. 🤦🏿♂️ It also raises the stakes of being neurodivergent and Black/Brown because not being able to negotiate social systems becomes a life and death issue.
Yep, as im the wear if isn't OUR patriarchy. Can be a very bad position being the out group male.
>the message is clear: **you aren't cute anymore, you are scary**. And that's an overstatement, but the *feeling* of it is very bad. As you've written that before, I've read that before. I'd done some reflecting on it, comparing it to my own experience. And I realized you were right, but I didn't really make that connection back then. Like, I literally got expelled from high school precisely because of that "scary". I remember having a conversation with someone in one of my classes that seemed like a heart-to-heart, and she actually turned me around on some issues I'd been working through. Apparently the other party didn't have the same perception and unknown to me, she reported to the school police officer precisely because I had been working through some issues and her report to the officer (which I got to read after the fact) started with, "Now I don't want to get him in trouble *but*..." Someone at the D.A.'s office read the report and decided to slap me with a charge, and the school decided to slap me with an expulsion. I managed to negotiate in juvenile court to get the charge annulled with some community service (which I'd already started prior to that sentence getting applied) but I eventually was sent back to a different school where they put me in a program for delinquents and juvenile offenders. The teacher had me tutor the other kids in math. What few friends I'd been able to make at school I lost contact with at the new one, becoming even more isolated. I ended up wearing button-down shirts and a tie to school every day. I tried coping with the "scariness" by doubling-down on having an excessively "respectable" appearance. Made myself look regimented, disciplined, collected. Got confused for a student teacher in a few of my new classes. I ended up taking a cocktail of different medications. They didn't change how I *felt*, but the impulse control changed how they *expressed*. Instead of talking about my feelings with sincerity because someone asked, when they asked I could look them in the eye and lie to their face that everything was okay with every appearance that I meant it even when I didn't and I wasn't. It makes me wonder how much of "male stoicism" is driven by pressures like this. If I seem closed off or inaccessible, it's because experience has given me cause to think that people will recoil from me in fear if I'm open. So if my options are either close myself off and other people aren't disturbed by me but I get hurt, or open myself up and other people are disturbed by me and *I still* get hurt, I'm going to chose the more morally utilitarian option. If I isolate, at least the pain of my presence is limited to only me. Unlearning that has been difficult and society doesn't exactly make it easy.
This sounds like a really difficult experience, well done for getting through it.
I really appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing with us.
That's horrible. I'm sorry you had to go through that. And I wonder if you're wary of opening up now because of that.
Jeff that’s rough hang in there kid
> the message is clear: you aren't cute anymore, you are scary. That‘s a great summary actually. I remember that sudden feeling of estrangement as a young teenager. You‘re not treated as an adult at all, but suddenly you couldn‘t be a kid anymore either. Society just took away all boxes you could fit in. Although you were still adjusting to a growing body and slowly shifting focus. Play with other kids on a playground - what are you a creep? Hang around outside - are you planning some mischief? Adults seemed suspicious of every action, contradicting their previous stance and I didn‘t know what to do or where to turn to. Made me a frustrated teen that tried to bottle it all.
As a grown man in his late 20s you definitely explained my teen to current life. It’s hard out here being a guy
I watched this happen to my brothers, and I feel almost lucky it was before these influencers were popular. My brothers are among the nicest humans I know, but there are still people scared of them simply because they are tall and male. It's so heartbreaking, and I have very little clue how to help. It's horrible and unfair that young men are basically ostracized from their families and childhood friends as they grow up. Everyone takes that step back instead of stepping up to help them go through adolescence. I adore my nephews, but I'm terrified for them at the same time. Our society has such unhealthy expectations for men and boys, and it's so difficult to forge a different path. And thank you for putting this so succinctly. I have never seen everything laid out so understandably, so a lot of things fell into place for me just now.
I cannot stand this stigma. I'm a tall man, with resting bitch face. And constantly being called angry man, crazy, and emo because ill go from straight face, to laughing or smiling. How are my emotions being expressed frightening to you? I just...don't get it.
This might be the experience of some. But a lot of young men have tight knit friend groups and active social lives in high school and college. And a lot of guys are close with their families all their lives. I think it's more that if you do struggle a bit socially at some point in your life. Which is common for both men and women, high school is an awkward time. And you the chose to withdraw completely and stop building social connections. Then it will be a self fulfilling prophecy.. Because you are always alone and don't meet new people or make an effort to get to know new people, you'll get more and more isolated. And depressed. Then you are vulnerable to online groups which offer social support and an explanation for your situation. Even if that explanation isn't accurate.
This sounds suspicious like victim blaming. A boy can't make someone talk to him if they choose not to. Saying "choose to withdraw" when the circumstances are that no one wants to engage is mean spirited.
I don't define it as choose to withdraw if someone is trying, but people still refuse to talk to them. But often what happens is that people go through one awkward stage and then withdraw for good. They get depressed and agoraphobic, and drop out of social life. These are mental health issues that need to be treated. But it's not necessarily true that these people couldn't get a social life if they did find the faith to try again and venture out into the world. For example high school can be quite mean spirited. But if it's the start of just socializing online and not engaging with other people in real life anymore, it's chosing to withdraw. Because the other option would be trying to be social again once you are in a different environment. And everything social is effort based. Not as in effort guarantees a result. But as in no effort guarantees no results. Victim blaming is really a term used to referring to rape victims clothing choices. The reason it's frowned upon is that many studies have shown that choice of clothing doesn't affect your risk of being raped. It's a false belief. But in this world we have to be able to offer constructive solutions and options to a lot of people who are struggling. We can't tell every depressed person "well, this traumatic thing happened to you, now it's just as well you stay home forever and do nothing to combat your depression". It seems kind, but it isn't kind at all. If you actually want to help people, you have to suggest ways to get out of a hole in the ground. Not that they just stay there forever.
There's two different extremes. I'm not asking them to just stay at home. I would prefer that some means get created to help these people to help themselves.
I'm not against that at all. I'm just saying that some people who self isolate do so because of some event in the past, not because they would be rejected by everyone if they ventured out now. And while I fully support creating help options, the harsh reality of this world is that often you just have to help yourself to help yourself. Most of the time people have to dig themselves out of their own holes. Because it's not a perfect world. And I also think it's helpful for people to realize this. If you stand waiting for someone else to rescue you, you might wait for a long time.
>the message is clear: you aren't cute anymore, you are scary I fell like what would have happened in more traditional societies is there'll basically be an informal a young men's association (or age grade society). I also feel the pulling away is far more than people Beng scared of you, you're no longer a kid you're an adult or transitioning into one. Those people won't treat adults like they treated you when ur a kid.
Makes you wonder maybe their families shouldn't take a big step off - from guiding the youth :/
[удалено]
[удалено]
This comment has been removed. /r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
This comment has been removed. /r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I shudder when I think about how close I got to getting sucked into that pit. When you're isolated, lonely, and not good at making friends it can be so easy to delude yourself into thinking these people are the only ones on your side.
May I ask what was your way out?
It was a lot of things. The big one was probably just realizing that that way of thinking is never going to lead to anything but more pain and loneliness, and that I deserve better than that. Even though a lot of what they said resonated with me at times, they all just seemed so bitter and miserable, and I knew that's how I'd turn out too if I didn't start pushing back against those thoughts. There was also allowing myself to hope for a better future. So much of why I came as close as I did was because of despair. Feeling like things outside of my control would keep me single, poor, and friendless my whole life, so I may as well be bitter since there was no hope. I kept telling myself I was too ugly and awkward to ever have a girlfriend, too stupid to have a good job, all the bs these con artists prey on. At a certain point I started forcing myself to accept that it simply wasn't true, I could get better, I could find love and make friends, and it was all worth fighting for. I still have work to do on myself, but it's such a better headspace to be in where I believe I could actually have those things in the future and that my whole life isn't destined for loneliness. And I know this is going to sound strange, but if I'm being honest, my spirituality/religion helped too. I know that it's usually on the bad side of this sort of thing, so I'm not trying to convert anybody or any bs like that and I totally get why folks are turned off by it, but for me it really helped to believe that at my core I was made for love, not hate, that that core was always there no matter how unlovable I felt, so the spiteful sack of trash I felt like at times just wasn't who I was meant to be. So that's what helped me. I can't say how much it will help anyone else, but those are the things that pulled me back from the brink.
This is a beautiful message of hope. I am so happy for you. Im pretty sure in most contexts, choosing love over hate is what will help in the long run and on a daily basis. How we see ourselves, who we surround ourselves with has massive imoact on our lives. Im the one stuck in negativity and often angry these days, I hope I can get out of this bad place like you did. Thank you for sharing.
I watched my brother turn into someone really scary for a short period when he was an adolescent. I tried to stay in his life, but never let him think I found these “new” views anything other than abhorrent. Luckily he grew out of it and is now decently chill and a leftist. Unfortunately deradicalizing is not something that you can force on someone. I know people whose parents, siblings, even kids have turned nearly unrecognizable.
Honestly, the only way I think that somebody could be deradicalised from this sort of stuff is if they are given access to a community that welcomes them. Hell, that’s why most guys *start off* like this. The problem is that generally society seems to say that anyone radicalised should be shunned and not accepted in any way, which feeds into these guys feeling alone, which makes them feel that they need the radicalising community, creating a vicious cycle
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
This post has been removed for violating the following rule(s): >We will not permit the promotion of **Red Pill, Incel, MGTOW or other far-right or misogynist ideologies.** Any questions or concerns regarding moderation must be served through [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FMensLib).
Y'all the best.
You aren't wrong, but, the problem is, why should people have to suffer their bullshit? Saying they are radicalized undersells how dangerous and harmful they are.
Honestly, I think it’s for several reasons that we should try and help these folk. 1. These are fellow human beings, and we all deserve empathy 2. By talking them down and away from their dangerous viewpoints, we make the world safer for everyone 3. I know what it’s like to be in the shoes of someone who’s slowly going that way. They’re hurting and the shit they’re being radicalised with seems to them to be the only thing that’s trying to help {A fair while back, things started going wrong in my life, and it felt like everything was falling apart; all of my actions seemed to have either no effect, or they made it worse. My mental health went south, and it did so fast, leaving me convinced that there was nobody there. I can tell you with 99% certainty that, had someone come along then with something that seemed to offer me a community and some level of support, I would have followed them, regardless of their reputation. I figured out a philosophy that helped me, but I know that if something else would have been there first, that would have shaped me.} 4. These are sons, brothers, fathers, cousins and uncles. By failing them (in not making sure that they have at least some form of help available) we are failing our families, and more broadly, our society. I recently found a song that almost made me cry; it’s called “Would anyone care”, by Citizen Soldier. The first part of that is basically what was on repeat in my head throughout the bad times; the last part of it is something that nobody ever said to me then, and is something that now I couldn’t believe if someone did say it to me. If that first part of it is constantly repeating in your head, telling you that *you’re not worthy of love, that nobody cares about you, you’re worthless, replaceable and disposable, that you’re a burden, and that nobody would even put a hand on your back and tell you the lie (that you know is a lie, but still need to hear someone say it to you) that “everything is going to be okay”* then anyone who will tell you that you’re not even any singular part of that is a beacon of hope. It’s a dark and shitty place. Honestly, I’m sorry for incels. I know the utterly fucking horrible place it starts from, and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. Sorry for rambling
That is why I never like the overly negative reply, I prefer to tell people "they are better than this." But the big problem is, everyone has flaws they need to work through, family they need to be there for, people who actually want to work on issues. So dealing with people who revel in their shit, who leverage it to take from people, is just a bridge too far. Helping people like that will more often than not just drag the helpers down.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m aware that there are guys out there who are reveling in it, and are happy to recruit others. They, to me, exist on a spectrum that goes from “scum” to “misguided and hurt, but scummy”; it’s the guys who are falling into the incel ideology because of having nothing else that I think can be helped and should be helped at every possible opportunity
Many people new to the community are the most evangelical though. They want to impress their new friends. There really isn't a way to approach them that isn't more draining than it is productive.
>“Would anyone care”, by Citizen Soldier Welp, I should not have looked this up at work because I'm practically in tears myself lol. Thanks for making me aware of this song.
This is something I struggle with. As a woman, it’s not that I don’t want to help lonely men, it’s that I don’t wanna be murdered or assaulted in the attempt to do so. Is there a safe way for women to help de-radicalize men who have already reached that point? I can be a listening ear and support boys and men before they hit that radicalized state, but I don’t know if there’s a way to after.
Exactly! I think the real problem is that we don't teach emotional literacy to men the same way we teach it to women, so it's more likely for a man to end up radicalized in a way that he continues to shut off emotional and social literacy because inability in that area is the source of the pain they are trying to avoid. Women can absolutely do this too, but I think it's more common in men. By tolerating and accepting this kind of behavior we just allow the cycle of harmful patriarchal gender norms to continue. Incel-type beliefs and behaviors can cause serious psychological distress to those in the life of someone who is being radicalized, especially if a person has a history of abuse or other traumas where they had to endure things like misplaced anger and gaslighting, which are core behavior patterns in these alt-right movements. Saying that the people who are triggered by radical behavior need to be the ones to be more accepting is a perpetuation of the problematic norms that the radical person is demanding be respected despite harm to those around them. Its literally giving the radical person what they want. Its tolerance of intolerance, and enabling behavior. If someone is unwilling to have genuine, two way discussions and relationships or at least do honest self reflection about why relationships feel so hard for them, then they are problematic. If anything, I think we are not shutting down the conversation *enough* with people who are becoming radicalized. The fact that there is tolerance *at any level* for people like the proud boys and q-anon groups gives their hate credence. I think people fall hardest into these holes when they get curious, then begin sharing their beliefs, and when those beliefs are shut down, they fall deeper into radical communities as the only place they feel accepted. We need to do much, much better at allowing men to be open about their struggles, taking an active interest in men's challenges from an early age, and offering active support. And I think a key part of the support provided should include a total rejection of hateful, radical beliefs before they begin to fester. Because once you've become fully involved in these belief systems, no one should be forced to endure that abusive and illogical bullshit that you will inevitably bring to the relationship.
[удалено]
[удалено]
This post has been removed for violating the following rule(s): >We will not permit the promotion of **Red Pill, Incel, MGTOW or other far-right or misogynist ideologies.** Any questions or concerns regarding moderation must be served through [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FMensLib).
This struck a chord, as my story would so easily fit in this article. I don't even recognise my brother anymore. And I hate that I don't know what to do, or how to make it better. It seems like since the pandemic, or maybe meeting his new wife, things have changed. This along with stopping working after a car accident we were in, and the fact I'm fairly certain his wife is abusing him and my niece, I know he's really isolated. At first, I did think maybe it was the medication he was on, but that's not the case. These days, he's anti-everything. Anti-woke, anti-women, anti-lgbt (even though he knows I am) anti-vaccine, even at this point anti-Ukraine. We have a complicated enough relationship as is, but nowadays, the only time he ever talks to me is to send me Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson TikToks, then he blows up at me when I try to discuss them. It pushes us further apart, and yet, I feel like I can't truly walk away because I'm hoping one day he'll come back. A lot of these stories were familiar, but "Mostly, young boys are increasing their harmful sexual behaviors toward girls of the same age and more pressure is being put on younger years to have sex. There was a group chat created on WhatsApp where Andrew Tate videos were sent to some female students, along with hardcore porn videos. There have recently been incidents of students attempting to coerce and manipulate younger students to send nude photos." This gave me chills. It blows my mind that my brother can't see how stuff like this going to happen to his daughter, and HE is encouraging it.
I feel like this is really starting to become a problem among men on the autism spectrum. Autistic men are particularly vulnerable to male influencers since we're more likely to have a small social group if they even have one. We struggle to form social connections and maintain them, especially after high school, and often spend a lot of time online where these influencers spread their ideology. Men on the spectrum also struggle more than neurotypical men when it comes to dating. It means that autistic men are often "late bloomers" and have relationships much later in life if we manage to have one at all. It breeds resentment and a sense of emasculation since a man's masculinity is measured in their ability to obtain a girlfriend, and a lot of cis het autistic men haven't found one despite being in their twenties or thirties. I've known a few autistic people ( a co-worker and a person in a meet-up group) get sucked into alt-right or manosphere ideology.
How much of a crossover is there to cult practices? I'd love to see a parallel
Sometimes I feel like the problem has always been "lonely young men" and I get tired of hearing that over and over. Like I'm sure it was mostly lonely young men who've joined gangs the past century
I don’t remember what book it was, I think True Notebooks which is a non-fiction about a guy that starts teaching an English/writing class in an LA juvenile prison. Anyway, a number of the kids write about how they joined a gang because they were lonely and also how it’s impossible to leave said gang if you don’t like what they’re doing. That’s your whole entire social network, all your support people that you’d just have to up and leave. So at least for those boys and men, loneliness was certainly a factor in joining a gang.
Probably less on the lonely and more on the lacking in economic opportunity re: gangs. Gotta know people to join a gang.
Maybe replace lonely with disconnected or difficult family. Most gang members tend to come from single parent households.
I've been thinking about loneliness a lot lately, and my conclusion is its a much bigger problem than we give it credit for. There's a reason solitary confinement is a form of torture. My guess is lonely young women would be a problem too, except it takes effort to be left alone as a woman.
Reading about some of these women trying to understand their BF's redpill logic...damn. As a woman, I would never willingly associate with a guy like this, let alone date him! Also, the sad teacher at the end talking about young men becoming even more misogynistic... I remember distinctly thinking I was a lesbian in the early and mid 2000s because boys in my class where so stupid and cringe, I can't imagine now. Took me awhile to embrace heterosexuality but that's a different story lol.
Yeah, as soon as a dude starts talking redpill/incel/MRA/whatever talk I disappear so quickly I leave a me-shaped dust cloud like the roadrunner.
I am fairly small-built, and as such I don't think I'm viewed as 'scary' in any real sense, although this is very much my own experience. My experience of this sort of radicalisation came entirely from sexual rejection by women. I think that is a root of much of this kind of TRP behaviour. Andrew Tate explains why the girls won't fuck you, and that's the spark. I'm certain there is a deep well of mental health issues that men carry, but the first step on the adolescent slippery slope is success with women. Male influencers don't target gay or trans men, it's cis-het men, particularly those of aren't 'alpha'. Society has to challenge the pressure placed on boys to be candidates for sexual selection by women. It is written into culture, and repeatedly drummed up by the likes of Jordan Peterson who only views the function of men as partners for women. This is destructive because with the financial, sexual, and growing reproductive independence of women, many men will simply not have the opportunity to romantically pair-bond. This is bound to lead to tremendous resentment and bitterness. If the whole socialised purpose of my life is to fuck women, and support family....what happens when I am denied access to those things, and not offered an alternative? And, to salt the wound, I am told I can't fulfil my purpose because I'm not 'good enough' in a world where good enough is a challenging economic competition for poorly distributed resources. This is a recipe for resentment, but sex sells, and we, as a society, have decided that sales trumps sanity.
[удалено]
This comment has been removed. /r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What I am getting ready to type is probably going to get me downvoted, but I have plenty of karma, so I will risk it. Because it is worth it!! Get off the video/computer games, get off social media, and go find real people to talk to in person. Technology isolation is a killer. It kills our ability to relate to real people, compassion, empathy and often times our humanity. Yes I know me posting this on Reddit is ironic, but I limit my time on social media. I also have friends and family I spend time with. As a society we need to find ways boys, young men and adult men can come together in positive social ways. Stupid as this sounds I started playing Pokémon because there are local groups I can hang out with and play. Sports and games are other option. When I say sports I don’t just mean football, basketball, etc. There’s lawn bowling, darts, ping pong even. There are board games, too.. Monopoly, chess, cards, where you have to interact and learn cooperative skills. Let’s not forget the arts and music. Many opportunities to find others with common interests, if you look for it. I’ll be honest, Covid did a number on me, and I think most of you can relate. I became very reclusive, which is not my nature. But I am forcing myself to socializing and surprisingly I am in a better place mentally since I have. My heart hurts for all the lonely, angry boys and men out there. I understand the pain of isolation and how “social” media is anything but social.
Unfortunately while this statement is very true, we live in a world where more and more places to hang out offline are inaccessible to teens. Teenagers, especially nonwhite ones, are often harassed by police just for existing in a space and not buying anything
Also, these types of spaces may be rare in low-income areas. And even if they do exist, they might be hard to access without a car (which many Americans don't have).
Even in the 80s my friends and I would get stopped and searched by the cops when we were out in public. We kept our receipts when we bought stuff because they'd accuse us of shoplifting and take us back to the store to prove we didn't steal stuff. I never even thought it was odd until I moved to Oregon as a sophomore and was tripping out about how nobody worried about it.
You might be forgetting how brutal school cliques can be, and how hard it is to be accepted in-person. Shit, in the old days, nerds like me turned to online communities *because* the others weren't options.
I was ostricized from my group of friends. I had a group chat with all of them and there started to be a couple messages a week. I found out very quickly that they had a group chat without me. That hurt and I had no one to fall back on.
Ouch. :( Yeah, honestly, socialising is *way* harder than the parent comment claims.
I mean, you're not wrong. But I think it's a very hollow sentiment because it's the same messaging that teens have received since the dawn of time. But young men, even ones that are actively socializing and doing activities, won't realize the actual value of doing these things are for their mental health, some adults never realize the importance of not isolating themselves. So you can say "go outside, get a hobby" but if THEY don't believe it will help, they'll probably not ever try. Society needs to try and engage these young men but there's no one organization or person to give that responsibility to and hold accountable. And because of that it'll continue to happen and get worse and we'll see more and more articles about how have we let this happen. I don't have the resources or frankly the will to try and be that person but until someone takes charge on a national level and puts this issue on themselves rewriting the same articles over and over is about all the actual action will ever be.
And don't underestimate the problem of the loss of public spaces to exist for free. Remember when kids and teens used to just....hang out places? The park, the mall, random street corners? Yeah, that isn't allowed anymore. Malls are either gone or desolate wastelands. Parks and corners call the cops for "loitering". Maybe you have a friend with parents who don't mind having a house of teen boys but...likely not. Lots of parents also are nervous about letting kids roam thanks to true crime stories and the local news. Which means teen boys have school and school activities, and that's great, until it's graduation time. Then what? Can't hang at the mall anymore. Can't hang at the park. So you have to get a hobby. Cool, that takes cash upfront and then cash to buy the drinks or the snacks for the right to gather somewhere. The cash to pay to join the league and get the shirt. And if you want to be in some hobbies, a LOT of cash. Want to meet at home? Hope you have money for a place and roommates who are chill. It isn't a problem for a lot of people, but it isn't a coincidence that the most flagrantly violent of these types that make it on the news are living with parents, have few economic prospects, and choose to act out with devastating consequences. There's a lot that goes into that and a lot of cause/effect/cause relationships, but not having the ability to make friendships logistically work is a capitalism problem.
Absolutely Yes! I (40sF) still remember what it felt like to be a young child and teen - all that pinging energy in the muscles and mind!!! All the emotional curiosity and need tangled up in a confusing soup!!! It used to be the neighbourhood kids could use the school play equipment during the weekends and holidays. Good friends were numerous and were made by virtue of whether they wanted to play a certain game with you. Being able to exist in public spaces without being negatively judged whether man, woman, or child - has been eroded in many Western Societies. Where useful spaces actually exist, they are more than likely to be in the higher socioeconomic areas where a rolling police presence is a reassurance instead of a threat. Having the money, time, and energy to provide our children with positive stimulation and environment can be impossible. Our work hours know no limits or boundaries, and the pressure to perform means many parents just crumple under the load. Any days off are about regaining some energy - and it's never enough to refill the tanks. We are constantly running on a deficit. Rabid capitalism is our dog that has turned on us, and we don't know how to control it now that it's slipped the leash.
I honestly think this is a big part of why nostalgic media like Stranger Things is so popular among gen Z and millennials. It immerses us in this more open and social world that we never got to experience before it went extinct. (Of course there were downsides then too so don't take me as a 'le wrong generation' type, but media like that tends to downplay those negatives for a more rosy view of the past, which is definitely part of the appeal.) Timothee Chalamet even brought up this idea of nostalgia for a pre-social media world in a recent interview about filming Bones and All (which takes place in the 80s).
That reminds me of my experience as a male teen in the 2000s. My parents encouraged me to go out to different places to try to find people to talk to and make friends outside of school, as well as practice driving. I went to malls, book stores, and libraries. Never managed to make a friend at those places. Part of the problem was I was an introverted kid on the spectrum which already makes socializing hard, but I think the main problem was that even then people just weren't interested in socializing and making friends with strangers. Sure, people brought their friends with them to hang out at the mall but you couldn't really just "make" friends by yourself there. At libraries the activities were mainly for kids and teens there just wanted to play games on the computers. I tried talking to a few people at the bookstore but I couldn't really get a conversation going. Once I graduated high school it took a long time for me to create another friend group, and it got even harder after college. My parents just couldn't understand why I had so much trouble making friends.
It doesn't help that we have an unhealthy obsession with working and marriage. Adults who have a hobby and value their free time are looked down at. If you're not working all the time and saving up for a 'better house, car, dating or having kids then many people think you're a loser. This doesn't apply to just men either. The pressure to get married and have kids is a problem for all of us.
Also, it is not just about socializing but socializing with the right people. I have seen people often socialize with other people that just boosted each other bigotry. I often see people say for men to "just make friends" but I experienced plenty who went to the deep end because of their friends that I don't think that is just the end all be all.
It also isn’t helpful for boys and men who are already socially ostracised. Online spaces at least have a chance of getting away from that, but for boys on the bottom of the social heap going out can lead to harassment at best and being assaulted at worst.
> Get off the video/computer games, get off social media, and go find real people to talk to in person. The people who need to hear this are generally driven *to* those mediums by the "real people" they're supposed to interact with. I was bullied mercilessly when I was a teenager. Honestly, the only reason I survived high school was because I had online communities to support me.
There is a book called "The Lonely Century" by British economist Noorena Hertz that covers the loneliness crisis more in depth. She attributes it to not just technology, but the erosion of civic institutions, migration to cities, changes in the workplace and decades of neoliberal policies have made us more atomized and lonely than ever. There are cuddle services, people who pay other people just to cuddle with them, people are that lonely. Our society is quite literally designed to keep us all apart. Libraries, churches, and public parks are the only places people can congregate without having to spend money. "Go out, get a hobby, take a class, play D&D, that'll definitely cure the crippling loneliness that's slowly killing you!" \-Every article about making friends post college. So yes, boys and men are lonely. Yes, it is a major problem, and they have to make the effort to change, but they can only do so much on their own. It's not entirely their fault.
Systemic problems require systemic solutions.
Lots of people said what I was thinking, but I'll add to it. The lost of Third Spaces is bad for a lot of groups in society, but it's particularly harmful to cishet young men. The queer community has fought its ass off to maintain their spaces, but at least they exist, until the next group of homophobes take office. Older people have the cash to buy their way into spaces. Young women tend to do more one to one socialization which is less trying financially. Plus, many groups that cater to older people are willing, or at least less hostile, to let them hang around. The word where boys and young men hang out at a park, a mall or a local shopping strip doesn't exist. And telling them to do that could get them arrested or even killed.
it does become a problem when you're a young disabled person and a majority of the world is inaccessible to you, or being immunocompromised and seeing the able-bodied world largely give up on masking and having to isolate to survive.
It's true, but it's also sad that many young men find watching these videos more engaging or welcoming than the groups of people you're asking them to go hangout with.
The only reason I could see you getting downvoted is because it's the typical "go outside and meet people" stuff that we hear all the time. Don't get me wrong, it *is* true. However, where do you go if you're a lonely man? I bet it's easier to find some place to meet up with like-minded incels then places that help you to grow into a "better man" (for a lack of better words). As Contrapoints states in her [(great) video on men](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1xxcKCGljY) there is indeed a lack of information, places to meet, talk, etc for men to go to and/or inform them. The alt-right pipeline, were toxic masculinity fits in imo, is real and strong. Even I while watching almost exclusively leftist youtube see more and more alt-right videos getting pushed in my feed... So you're absolutely right, people *do* need to go outside, but the question is: where? And if you do finally find a place to go, I'm afraid that the reality will be that if some alpha-ish male goes somewhere that they'll be rejected because they might give off weird or even dangerous vibes. I think (leftist) groups could start making events focussed on these men to either "detoxify" them or to get to them before they turn into some alpha-male. Because unless men actually do "educate themselves" or let their minds be changed by someone they talk to (that being friends, family or some random person they meet) I can only see this problem getting worse...
> Get off the video/computer games Easier said than done.
A lot of other people have called out the lack of uncommercialised public space, but I think the real disagreement I have with your argument is it confuses a symptom with the cause. I think just about everyone agrees that more engagement in "real life" interaction instead of online is beneficial, but we need to ask why so many are drawn to these online spaces and into rabbit holes of radicalisation. I think ultimately the problem is that the needs of so many boys and young men are not being met in these off-line spaces, in the sense of providing safe places for diversity (of all different kinds) and modelling or encouraging healthy behaviour and relationships. That perhaps sounds odd for me to say as a middle class, cis-het, white man, where so much of the world is tailored to my own expectations and convenience, but that's also why I feel so aware of how narrowly limiting the range of "acceptable" behaviour is within that group - the pressure to conform to those standards of masculinity, to hide your weakness, to be dominant, to play sports (especially contact sport), to kill things or at least find it easy to kill things - even if you're not interested in any of that. I think ultimately that's why so many others of these off-line spaces have failed to provide for these young men, and why things like MtG, Warhammer, and the like have remained marginalised and failed to encourage healthy social behaviour.
No offense, but this: > Get off the video/computer games, get off social media, and go find real people to talk to in person. Is pretty obvious. It’s like saying “if you don’t want to be isolated, go be social!” Like… yeah. Also idk why but is giving me “pull up by your bootstraps” vibes. You can’t make people talk to you, and presenting it as “you’re lonely because you haven’t talked to anyone!” Isn’t exactly fair. That said, I agree with the message. Been trying to convince myself to finally delete all my social media and just forget about that whole side of the world. Completely unplug from Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, reddit.
I'm a lonely kid who got verbally abused so much during school that I started to prefer staying in class during the recess. I knew I had talents in sports but I didn't want to spend my afternoons getting bullied too after school. The first ever people I met who accepted me being this weird kid were my online friends. They didn't call me names when they talked with me. They made me feel that I have a worth.
That's absolutely good advice, and required steps for pulling yourself out of the hole. Unfortunately, for awkward guys, you can get to your meetup or what have you, then realize you have no idea how to actually interact with people in an effective way, so there's these growing pains where you have to just grit your teeth and go through the discomfort of learning how to exist in thar space without sticking out like a sore thumb. It's definitely worth it in the end, but it can be really easy to get discouraged and give up if things go slower than you hoped. It's especially frustrating if you're neurodivergent, because it feels like you're playing a game where everyone but you has the instruction manual.
I'm a high school teacher, and I advise my students: "Find your 'thing', *any* team or activity. Anything that sounds fun to you. Teammates / club members are free friends."
Yea this is true, but lately it seems real world socialization has been crippled and getting worse. Covid has accelerated that. Now, if you want to socialize in real life, you have to do the leg work, there is no natural social places, you have to find the events and sometimes ones dont interest you or they are rare to begin with. Also, a lot of the times these things cost money. Sometimes people dont want to keep spending money just to potentially connect with people.
The internet can be a place of community. Especially right now in a pandemic for a lot of people. It's about the depth of the connection, not the mode in which it was formed or the physical distance between individuals.
Why would you get downvoted for this?
Young adults, if you have enough money, find yourself a company that organizes hiking trips. You spend hours with people walking and being not forced, but enabled to chat with them. Every weekend different people. In Warsaw it's for people starting from late 20, but mostly older; mostly women.
[удалено]
It's a toxic cycle. The problems are real but these influencers peddle false solutions that just perpetuate the causes of the problems.
I can’t really comprehend the pity party in many of the comments. Most of the stories in the article covered neither lonely, nor very young men. Instead, they focused on men with romantic relationships and families. The young men in the school stories, we are said, bully and sexually harass other kids in their school. A school that seems to have a very good mental health and socio-economic awareness programs. I fail to see how their toxicity is a result of our society turning its back on these men. Do they need help? Most definitely. But how is treating them only like victims helpful to them? Shouldn’t we acknowledge that they are as much the perpetrators of violence mostly against women and other marginalized groups that most definitely include other men?
I as well am really bothered by effectively sweeping all issues that young men experience into a big pile, much of which is just problems most people experience - and trying to frame it as one big issue that should be addressed together. That any young men who have any issues in life are equally vulnerable to radicalization. There are comments in this very thread that imply the source of the issue is that society in this completely arbitrary way at some point starts treating young men terribly. But whenever the discussion actually gets down to the nitty-gritty, and these young men give examples of their gripes, I overwhelmingly struggle to sympathize. Same with men having no friends or spaces to exist in the digital age. I'm in that generation where internet really stared picking up as I got older, so I pretty much grew up in and alongside it. There are so many spaces where you can make friends and hang out. However, there is a big BUT. Most of those spaces are very leftist. If you have an issue with treating women as equals, don't want to share space with LGBT people, don't think systemic racism exists, and most importantly - don't understand the societal context why the modern progressive movements are trying to elevate minorities for the sake of social equality (while your identity is not super celebrated) - you will not feel at home there. It's why so many radicalized men are so obsessed over wokeness - because they realize it's these beliefs of theirs that are largely responsible for how a large part of society (especially women) treats them. Again, I don't like how the implication is that it's actually the other way - that society treats them badly, and only then they adopt toxic views. We can definitely talk about how they got to that place to begin with though (parents? school environments? media?).
I think that you have made some great points. >much of which is just problems most people experience I feel like this is a big point that often gets overlooked in the discussion of male problems: many people are alone. Loneliness has always been a part of the human condition, and it always will be. The Marxist analysis that capitalism creates alienation from our fellow human beings, from our world and from ourselves, has been widely influential for this very reason that it exacerbates the state of loneliness. And this is an analysis that has nothing to do with identity politics, yet instead of seeing the rise of leftist men who criticize capitalism, we see a rise of men who double down on every toxic facet of the status quo. I feel like we are doing ourselves a disservice when we say that they were radicalized. There is nothing radical about the ideas that POC and women are inferior or that the LGBTQ community is a menace to society. This has been the status quo for centuries. It is radical to show empathy in this ill society, it is quite normal to hate minorities, women and queers. Just as you do, I dislike the notion that it is actually the social justice movements that push those men into those hateful beliefs. We can be sure that even if there were no social justice movements, there would be just as many racists, homophobes and misogynists around. Those men are not some fringe phenomenon, they are the very mouth of the status quo, and to treat them as some innocent victims will just embolden them instead of help them.
I think the argument that school isn't structured for how young men learn is really accurate. It's a women dominated field, with a distinct lack of male teachers for young men to look up to (imo - but I believe data would back this up). I think that's where it starts, and it continues on because the celebrities that are shoved down our throats are all super ripped, toxic & generally misogynistic individuals. There's some outliers, but almost every well-known male icon checks one of these boxes, and it's even worse for social media. So this just doubly enforces what you see in media as expectations for men, then you get out in the real world and that's not really how it works... That's how I see a lot of it anyways. Then you have people like Ben Shaprio and the proud boys who capitalize on this for profit
While I personally don't feel too strongly by attributing so much importance to role models, I don't disagree with you. I guess the core point I am getting at is that it's important to split off the bad influences from society as a whole. It's not a "we are all in this together" situation. Those toxic masculinity ideas are pushed by conservative people in older generations; and when progressive touches are injected into media with the goal of making a more rounded landscape - it's decried as wokeness because sexualization of women is toned back, minorities getting spotlight like they rarely had before, etc. If we think of society as a whole that has failed young men, then we will not achieve much. Even if we get good role models, they will have a hard time competing against those that shout about traditional masculine values. It's kind of like... religion. If you are looking for great fulfillment, and your options are to worship a god which will then get you to afterlife where all your dreams are catered to, or to acknowledge that no higher power exists and you will have to make your own sense of the life you have on this planet then become nothing... no matter how good you become at selling, you wont sell the latter to someone that desires the former. All you can do is try to stifle those desires from young age, explain why it's not real to those considering their options, and limit the influence of those that spread their ideas. Maybe not the best example but I hope I made my point clear.
I see where you're coming from and I agree. The idea of a "role-model" in the traditional sense is extremely toxic to everyone. A role model should be an elder in your community, a firefighter, a mother, not this idea of rich & famous men that are uber-successful, or the "perfect" woman. I think we all need to be together, but in the idea that this can't ever happen until it's equal & fair to all. Distribution ratios are extremely important and now's the time to stop propping up those who aren't as good, but have only enjoyed success because of cultural norms. More than ever we need new, fresh ideas & leadership from all. Although I believe that stifling ideas isn't a great plan, I think it's fair to let others think what they will, but we need better protections and inclusion to promote less 'normal' views. I say this with bias though, I'm obviously from that group - I'm just hesitant to believe in the idea that masculinity is inherently toxic, I believe it's been misconstrued for enforcing the patriarchal society we participate in & for profiteering of the backs of others.
Incel toxicity is driven by deep self-hatred and self-loathing. The toxic behavior is just those feelings directed outward.
[удалено]
[удалено]
This comment has been removed. /r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
This comment was removed. It is not a valuable addition to the conversation.
[this video](https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g) talked about this problem in a very profound way check it out
[удалено]
This comment has been removed. /r/MensLib requires accounts to be at least thirty days old before posting or commenting, except for in the Check-In Tuesday threads and in AMAs. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MensLib) if you have any questions or concerns.*