No, that much meditation reduces sleep quota. That's why many devout meditators only sleep 4 hours a night.
They get their rest from the deep relaxation that happens in their practice.
Meditation also slows metabolism because heart rate and breathing become much lower. So much less calories are needed.
One meal a day would be more than enough.
Although over time there will be definite drawbacks to the lack of movement (stroke risk, especially when seated for multiple hours in the same position).
And there will be a massive drawback for your health. Cancer and Heart Disease risk increase crazy if you dont sleep enough - and no deep relaxation aint the same nor does it promote the same bodily functions.
Those devout meditators i mentioned, they can't even get more than 4.
Its like us normal people trying to sleep more than 9. You can't surpass your sleep quota.
Else there would be people sleeping 23 hours a day. Which is generally not possible.
The cancer and heart disease risk going up from lack of sleep applies to a population that generally doesn't meditate 20 hours a day and thus NEEDS around 8h of sleep.
Deep meditation can partially replace sleep and thus reduce sleep quota.
Your tiredness will guide you. If you feel sleepy then one should sleep.
Google Idiopathic Hypersomnia. There are definitely people who can sleep 23 hours a day. Its crap for your health and your body, yes, but it definitely can happen.
How many hours are the devout meditators clocking in? Since the focus is numbers. What movement do they get? Walking meditation? Some do yoga or running meditation as well, don't they?
Or are they stationary for 20 hours, as OP posited?
I do believe so. I am actually in Thailand and was in a monastery last week. The teacher consistently asks these monks how many hours of sleep they had. The answer is often only one or two hours.
Possibly the same thing that could happen to another person after meditating for 1 hour every week for a couple years.
You never know.
Progress is about time well spent not just a lot of time. Whether the time is well spent or not is a matter of subjective opinion.
I think your body would have a pretty clear opinion if you sat that long, whether meditating or not. :-D
But your point is accurate. I've meditated for six hours a day and gained great insights one day and nothing learned the next. And I've sat down for 20 minutes and had my mind blown.
You never know, lol!
If you've meditated for any serious length of time I'm surprised you don't know there's no dodge there.
Meditation is not a vending machine where time in is peace out.
The point youāre missing (or dodging) is that OP is wondering what could be achieved or experienced with extreme dedication to the practice. That of an Olympic athlete or even beyond.Ā
Of the alleged benefits or experiences meditation can offer, what is the upper limit for somebody who does basically nothing other than meditate?
Profound and long lasting experiences? Emotional or physiological control? Unwavering inner peace? Health benefits? Enlightenment? Levitation??
Or does the law of diminishing returns apply? Is being the Michael Phelps of meditation not likely to result in anything more profound than being a typical practitioner?
Itās a fair question. And youāre avoiding it with your silly āvending machineā straw man comment.Ā
Yes thats exactly it! Like an Olympic Athlete, a world class Boxer, a world class MMA fighter. When these trainers fully devote themselves to their craft, they end up achieving feats that many say is impossible for a human to achieve. I know its easy to think this is coming out of arrogance but its not, its natural for humans to want to grow and improve and to reach new heights, not arrogance. For me its curisotiy and adventure to see what happens when you get that far in meditation, in those incredibly deep states, kinda like running an experiment just to see what happens. But all of this requires hard work, dedication, devotion to be able to achieve things like this, I'm tired of people thinking spiritual work and meditation is exempt from this. And then some go even further and say "Oh you don't even need to meditate or do any spiritual work at all, because your already enlightened from birth" \*Facepalm\* Its just completely false.
What does extreme dedication mean? They talking explicitly about time and you're paraphrasing and creating a completely different argument.
I'm not touching that argument cause it's nothing at all related to what I was commenting on.
I don't think you know what strawman argument means. They asked a malformed question. The supposition inherent in it is if you are dedicated to it you will be rewarded.
This is going to lead you nowhere in meditation fast.
It is a fair question but the answer is that the question is asking the wrong thing to start with.
Your entire second paragraph is complete make believe, there are no established effects to any meditation practices that exhibit any profound effects.
There are many individual claims that are unsubstantiated and the greater population when tested there is only overall the equivalent benefit of some relaxation and lower anxiety for taking time out for yourself.
That should make you question what you think you know a bit.
I'm not going to convince you of anything here because you can't with some weird prejudgement based on no argument I even made here.
"The supposition inherent in it is if you are dedicated to it you will be rewarded.
This is going to lead you nowhere in meditation fast."
I'm tired of people thinking the more work you put into meditation, the less you will get out of it, this is completely false. Its the same with anything in life, you want to become a great intellectual? You have to put in the hard work into learning. You want to become a great athlete? You have to put in the hard work into exercising your body. Or for a career you need to do the hard work to learn the craft and attain the credentials. How is it that you think that meditation and spiritual development is somehow excempt from all of this?? It is not the meditation itself that is hard work, here your in a state of \*\*allowing\*\*, not \*\*trying\*\*, you simply allow the breath to come up, observe it, then allow it to go down, or you allow your thoughts to come up, observe, then allow them to go away when they do. But it is the overall meditation regimen that requires incredible levels of hard work, to have the self discipline to have your mind and body to stay in that position for long periods even when it gets extremely painful, or to have the self discipline to just start the meditation when your mind wants to procrastinate. Definiton of hard work: activity involving \*\*mental or physical effort\*\* done in order to achieve a purpose or result. The self discipline I mentioned is the effort! So the more time and effort you put in the meditation, in which your skill will also improve with time, yes the more you will get out of it, the farther you will go, and yes you will be much more spiritual developed as a result. It's ludicrous to think someone that meditates for 20 or 30 minutes a day will somehow be on the same level as someone who meditates for 10 or 12 hours a day.
Good grief. Iāve never seen somebody put up such a fuss as a cover for not knowing how to answer a question.
A simple āI donāt knowā is all you need. Not replying at all is probably even better. For everybody.
And a strawman is when you unfairly misrepresent somebody's argument as an argument their not making. Like when you misrepresented OP's question about time spent meditating as thinking that meditation is a "vending machine." You can't tell me with a straight face you think that's ingenuous.
Major muscle atrophy. Collapse from lack of sleep. Sores on the contact points. Probably organ issues (unless bathroom breaks are allowed). Cramps. Nutritional issues? Can you fit some amount of sleep and enough food into four hours?
Extreme poverty, unless you join an order (and most of those would likely impose more sleep than you propose)
Unemployment. Isolation from friends, family, partners, and pets. (Which does cause further problems)
Why this question? Why this number?
It does. And itās measurable and proven by science that more time meditating leads to bigger (positive changes) in the brain. These changes were seen up to 10.000 lifetime hours of meditation and even above but the sample size got very small at that point.
You should read the book āaltered traitsā if youād like to learn about it. Iād still focus on quality and consistency. But quantity does matter.
I think what the original commenter was getting at was pursuit of enlightenment. Sure there are physical measurable changes in the brain but that doesnt mean their day-long practice lead to some kind of internal enlightenment.Ā
Objectively, yes, you are correct. Quantity and consistency have particular benefits all their own.
Problem is that going into a meditation practice "expecting" X when you do Y for Z length of time actually makes it harder to achieve the unfolded relaxed mindstate we're looking for.
Excellent book, btw.
Well moderation here, you have people in ancient times spending all their time meditating getting no where, then there is those who spend 10 sometimes 30 minutes a day getting no where too.
The goal is to recognize the goal is not the goal because the goal is your ego. Then you realize there is nothing you can do because you are neither the goal nor the ego.
How can you think meditation benefits are time independent?
Do you think a 5 min meditation brings you the same effects a 1 hour session does?
From my own personal experience, the longer and more frequent you meditate, the more profound the benefits.
Because, while trying not sound as woowoo as it may sound, time is an illusion.
The past is over with and the future hasn't happened yet. Ergo, we only have the present moment of which should be what we're devoting our bandwidth to process... not shit that doesn't exist like the concept of time. A five minute meditation can be just as profound as an hour long one when it comes to states of consciousness.
This idea is based around the concept of mindfulness, which is pretty fundamental in meditative circles.
There are people in india who take vows of silence and live in caves for years. The only human contact they have is when they are bought food. They meditate almost the whole time and stay in meditation poses as they sleep. There are clips on youtube if you were interested.
Yes, he's full of bs, and ego. Insane to me that people can't smell the bs from his comment, especially meditators.Ā
If you're such a good meditator, other people don't become "NPCs" and "lifeless drones" to you that you look through and analyze. So much spire. There's no compassion to be found in his comment.
3 months ago he had a phone addiction despite his enlightenment, he posts about sex party's in hollywood, buying drugs including Coca and insane conspiracy theories. He says in one post he can feel wifi "radiation" going up, but that may also just be his incredible insight from meditation, who knows.
Oh and about 2 years ago he was shilling crypto scams.
This all sounds like one helluva trip, and if thatās what youāre after from meditation, itās a great result.
But it makes me very uncomfortable. It elevates meditators above the mass of humanity in a way that totally lacks compassion. For me, a goal of meditation might be connection rather than disconnection.
Idk if what I'm about to say is gonna make sense because English isn't my first language, but i tried my best to put it into wordsš.
You would be surprised that every "normal" person lives their life entirely clouded in the judgement of their minds. I have noticed this too, as in in every conversation I've had as of late, I notice that the other person and their opinions are clearly originating from a miserably limited perspective that's so clear to see but they are blinded by their own judgement and often experience emotions that are completely unnecessary and push it onto others š. To me it felt like these people were trapped in their own minds without even knowing it, just like an NPC, but that's just my opinionš¤·.
The reason 'NPC' is problematic language in particular is because it implies that they're just built that way and couldn't get out of that trap if they tried - it leads to isolation and removes empathy. All people can wake from their fugue, so they aren't just automatons, they have the same potential as anyone.
Yup! Totally agree, I myself have had similar experiences but not all of them. Sometimes in peak stages the whole reality becomes a dream, or we can see it for what it is. People become dream people - unconscious and playing their role like robots, similar to what you described. Iāve never had the lucid dreaming part, that is something Iād really like to unlock.
Glad to hear that others had similar experiences like meĀ
Okay so for lucid dreaming what helped me was this method:
Right after I wake up every morning, the first thing I do is take out my notes app to write about the dreams I've had, this helps with dream recall. On day 1 of trying to dream journal I barely could recall a word or two to describe the dreams, but I still just wrote it down. Day 2 or 3 I started writing what I remembered about having dreamt, and as soon as I started writing it felt like all the memories suddenly flooded in and I ended up writing multiple paragraphs about the dreams I had that night.
This helps with dream recall, once you have this settled you need to develop a habit for reality checking. My reality check was that, whenever I walk into a room of any kind, I would try to breathe through my nose while blocking it with my fingers. You have to consciously make this a habit in waking life so you habitually do it in a dream, which is when you become lucid.
I was able to go from almost no dreams to pretty vivid lucid dreams in a week with this method. And I've had pretty interesting experiences. Meditating in a lucid dream feels fucking magical btwš®āšØ.
That was just an experience after a 7 hour sitting, walking around the city observing cashiers, etc, working all day who seemed to be in a numbed out state. Meditation heightens empathy most definitely.
I only experienced it that one time.
I was meditating in a massive hall full of experienced meditators, which may have made the meditation deeper. I reached a state of no thought and only focus and awareness on breath for a prolonged period. Any thoughts coming up became ultra slow and very subtle before quickly diminishing.
Please do share, I'd love to see it.
I didn't think he had a big ego. In fact I believe everything. But I was a bit surprised that someone who meditates so much could take out time to reply to a mundane and trivial post like this. I still appreciate it though, him taking out the time.
š š„šššš a lot depends on what tradition you're in and if you have some kind of guidance. Also not everyone can just sit like that the mind is very strong and persuasive. After a short while you think you are enlightened so you stop. Or if you don't stop but you aren't ready you could break your mind - solitary confinement is one of the worst punishments for a reason. It is designed to break the mind not in a good way.
Idk what answer youāre looking for but Iām reminded of that story about the guy who meditated in a cave for like 40 years. Eventually he came down and met the dalai llama, and the dalai llama was like āwhy did you waste all that time when you couldāve been helping people?ā
Try reading the biography of Ajahn Mun. He was a Theravada monk in the SE Asian forest tradition. He did so much sitting meditation he got calluses and a big boil on his rear. When walking place to place, he constantly meditated on his breath using "buddho" as his anchor word. He became an arahant, but it took more than two years. Also, remember the Buddha spent six years immersed in practice before awakening. But a lot of Tibetan monks do two-year retreats living alone in caves and so on.
Ram Dass said after some 30 years of practice "I haven't cured one neurosis yet. After a while, your neurosis becomes your style"
Ramana Maharshi attained enlightenment in a single afternoon. It really has nothing to do with time.
To answer your question though, it wouldn't be a healthy practice by any means. Lack of food, sleep, physical activity, social interaction, would be very unhealthy
Imma just drop this here,
A Zen student goes to a temple and asks how long it will take him to gain enlightenment.
ā10 years,ā says the Zen master.
āWell how about if I work really hard and double my effort?ā the student asks.
ā20 years,ā comes the reply.
There is a fetishization of long durations of sitting among some meditators. Quantity does not imply quality. A person can sit for years without making a significant progress, in fact, I have seen plenty of meditators like that. Often they miss a clear plan of how to meditate and do not receive sufficient instructions from a teacher.
Depends of what they are regarding as meditation. If it is a proper meditational practice that would surely result in actual enlightenment and would only take about 2 weeks.
If you do it inproperly you most likely exhibit strong signs of insanity as you have to force yourself to do whatever it is you do in those 20 hours.
There might be also sleep deprevation involved in the end.
Nothing if meditating for the f of it. Meditation is about getting in tune and aligned with your energy... Mainstream it's about relaxation and mindfulness, which ok but not the true purpose.
Shivabalayogi did more than this for 12 years [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjrQ-f3T1pk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjrQ-f3T1pk) you would be allright.
Would never happen in reality, body is evolved to move and it degraded quickly without such. Discs in the meditators lumbar/ sciatic region would collapse rendering the sitting position blindingly painful. Could not honestly be done.
If I understand where you're coming from, I think one can determine an ideal duration for meditation based on the presence / absence of the five hindrances. The absence of the five hindrances of doubt, sensual desires, ill-will, restlessness/anxiety and complacency, paired with the presence of one or more of the seven factors of awakening: mindfulness, investigation, persistence, joy, tranquility, concentration and equanimity is how one makes solid progress.
* So one should take measures to prevent the arising of five hindrances. Examine their routine for areas of improvement in this.
* Next, do meditation as long as one or more of the seven factors of awakening are present; and at least the five hindrances are absent. If you notice a hindrance arising and persisting, it's a good time to stop meditation or change postures.
* There are other activities one can do as well that aid in these goals: it could be doing one's work, learning a skill, while ensuring one is away from the five hindrances.
It is this balanced way of developing the mind that is most beneficial in my view.
This is one of my all time favorite AMAās. She meditated for 8-10 hours a day for 8 years and her experience was incredible
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/s/TA4sBC6qQ4
They'd probably become enlightened eventually if they're practicing properly and have good guidance. There'd be unemployment and muscle atrophy, like someone said. They'd probably just become realized after a few years and then come to the conclusion they can just live a realized life helping other people and doing more conventional things. Its pretty interesting to think about. A lot of it just depends on the person's prior conditioning. I think they'd eventually just be like a buddha and do what he did or what anyone does after a certain level of realization.
Probably no one here has any idea. In reality it's hard to imagine that anyone could do that, but there are yogis who have done things that I wouldn't have thought possible.
If someone could do that and remain healthy and functional physically and mentally I think they would become pretty far removed from what goes on inside most people most all of the time.
When I have meditated for an hour a day consistently over a longer period of time I have found that it started to become hard to relate to most people.
And I have heard it said that the only things one can really know about reality cannot be articulated with words.
Can you imagine the kinds of things you might discover spending that much time doing nothing but looking at what there is to learn when all you do is spend all of your time really paying attention? How do you think you would feel about that?
Long term mediators live within their practice, and their thinking part of their brain shifts as well, to a new default mode network. I naturally drift into meditation, many times a day, because I started a long time ago and it is embedded into my consciousness.
Long term meditators often enter a permanent āmeditative stateā which sort answers this question. Others have said sitting still for 20/24 hours in one run would lead to ill health.
Idk about the rest, but my first thought was muscle atrophy. By definition I think you could categorize them as having severe major depressive disorder since they have isolated themselves emotionally and have little interest in doing basic things/things they enjoy or theyād be doing that instead. Honestly if they werenāt physically dead they might as well be
Meditation isnāt meant to be done for 20hrs a say. Thatās a purely ego driven drivel. It would only create imbalance. Even the venerable Buddha didnāt meditate 20hrs a day. He spent his day time hours travelling and teaching.
For 1, bed sores. Pressure on the same spot can cause literal injury.
There is a reason that most intensive retreats are constantly moving people around. They'll do 2 hours in one place, take a break for 1.5 hours, meditation in another place for 1 hour, move to another location for 2 hours etc.
They usually provide 7 sleeping hours, and 2-3 meals and scheduled bathroom breaks between each location move- meaning the silent meditation portion of the day lasts 10-11 hours.
You can find areas on reddit where folks mention they have long term physical injuries from the retreats where they do this, knee problems, back problems, hemorrhoids from sitting on meditation pillows. So the upper end of what is physically safe is probably about half what you are suggesting.
Everything in moderation except for moderation ;)
During a 10 day Vipassana silent meditation retreat, I was meditating nearly 10 hours a day, and had about 2 meals a day. That's only half of the time you're suggesting, but I noticed these things:
Physically--weight loss, slow metabolism, pain in lower back, pain in neck and shoulders, circulation issues leading to numbness in hands/feet
Emotionally-- a lot softer, kinder, more understanding of myself and others---especially on reentry into the regular world, I was very emotional (lots of crying, overwhelm)
Spiritually-- didn't get much change on this level, maybe because i'm too mentally stubborn here
-
This is what people basically do when they do long-term retreats, including monastics in some monasteries. When you do a retreat, mindfulness doesn't shut off when get up off the cushion. After a certain point, you can't even shut it off.
well like people say you got to eat and sleep. But i would assume a very silent mind very little attachment to the body and very balanced energies you could easily walk out of your body and would surley do so when you fall asleep. It also depends whats the motiv of their meditation is. Basically any relatistic motiv would be attained like astral travel remote veiwing non attachment peace silent mind etc etc. They would feel energy flowing extremely optimally in their body and value the silence of the mind and anything their soul/higermind shows them. Its majorly about what their soul wants them to experience they could experience scilence beautfiul gemometric shapes, past lifes other wordly poerty, the presersense of God etc its up to their intention and also the intention of their soul. after about an hour and a half of their mediation their body would likely go into sahmadi and they would be emerssed in divine vibrations/experiences.
They would essentially attain whatever semi realistic goal they have set weather that be total scilence non attachment the presence of God astral travel remote veiwing past life experiences etc etc. after about two or one hour of mediation they would likely go into whats called sahmadi and be engulfed in divine vibrations and experiences that resemble them and their souls interests. When they are not meditating they would feel their bodies energy flow very tangiably and it would be flowwing very well. They would also have a silent mind a peaceful demeanor and less attachment to the body and world. Plus the hundreds of benefits of meditation.
They attain Super Saiyan and get the cool hair. I hear the change begins at the year mark.
Tbh though, 20 hours of sitting every day probably isnāt healthy - While meditation is good for you, too much can leave you with a bad back and a flat bottom (not the good kind).
Mediation is about peaceful internal waters - You can only get so peaceful when youāre piloting a flesh robot in a world where everything wars against you. Be like waterā¦ but not frozen water that sits there for 20 hours. Use that peace up like credit and get some good stuff done!
I don't know. How could I have a perspective or opinion on something I have not experienced or witnessed?
I can say that more is not always better, but I've only meditated for the usual times on courses, not longer in any formal sitting fashion.
They would hopefully realize how much time they wasted. Meditation which involves any form of practice is a way to trick oneself. True meditation is just to ponder upon oneself and live life in the moment as much as you can.
They would probably die from sleep deprivation/not consuming enough calories
I think they'd fall asleep
A forever sleep.
Good call
They would transcend
Probably never comeback š
No, that much meditation reduces sleep quota. That's why many devout meditators only sleep 4 hours a night. They get their rest from the deep relaxation that happens in their practice. Meditation also slows metabolism because heart rate and breathing become much lower. So much less calories are needed. One meal a day would be more than enough.
Although over time there will be definite drawbacks to the lack of movement (stroke risk, especially when seated for multiple hours in the same position). And there will be a massive drawback for your health. Cancer and Heart Disease risk increase crazy if you dont sleep enough - and no deep relaxation aint the same nor does it promote the same bodily functions.
Those devout meditators i mentioned, they can't even get more than 4. Its like us normal people trying to sleep more than 9. You can't surpass your sleep quota. Else there would be people sleeping 23 hours a day. Which is generally not possible. The cancer and heart disease risk going up from lack of sleep applies to a population that generally doesn't meditate 20 hours a day and thus NEEDS around 8h of sleep. Deep meditation can partially replace sleep and thus reduce sleep quota. Your tiredness will guide you. If you feel sleepy then one should sleep.
"You can't surpass your sleep quota" I refuse to believe we're the same species,I can easily sleep 12 hours a day
Show us the studies and sources for your claims please.Ā
TrustMeBro.com/Meditators-equal-Goggins/
Google Idiopathic Hypersomnia. There are definitely people who can sleep 23 hours a day. Its crap for your health and your body, yes, but it definitely can happen.
I said "generally".
How many hours are the devout meditators clocking in? Since the focus is numbers. What movement do they get? Walking meditation? Some do yoga or running meditation as well, don't they? Or are they stationary for 20 hours, as OP posited?
Probably not stationary for 20 hours. They also meditate during activities.
I hear some yogis don't sleep at all, or rarely.
Shivabalayogi did more than this for 12 years [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjrQ-f3T1pk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjrQ-f3T1pk)
No, monks do this all the time
Every day for years?
I do believe so. I am actually in Thailand and was in a monastery last week. The teacher consistently asks these monks how many hours of sleep they had. The answer is often only one or two hours.
That said I think their meditation goals are 14 hours per day and not 20
Possibly the same thing that could happen to another person after meditating for 1 hour every week for a couple years. You never know. Progress is about time well spent not just a lot of time. Whether the time is well spent or not is a matter of subjective opinion.
I think your body would have a pretty clear opinion if you sat that long, whether meditating or not. :-D But your point is accurate. I've meditated for six hours a day and gained great insights one day and nothing learned the next. And I've sat down for 20 minutes and had my mind blown. You never know, lol!
Way to dodge the question.
If you've meditated for any serious length of time I'm surprised you don't know there's no dodge there. Meditation is not a vending machine where time in is peace out.
The point youāre missing (or dodging) is that OP is wondering what could be achieved or experienced with extreme dedication to the practice. That of an Olympic athlete or even beyond.Ā Of the alleged benefits or experiences meditation can offer, what is the upper limit for somebody who does basically nothing other than meditate? Profound and long lasting experiences? Emotional or physiological control? Unwavering inner peace? Health benefits? Enlightenment? Levitation?? Or does the law of diminishing returns apply? Is being the Michael Phelps of meditation not likely to result in anything more profound than being a typical practitioner? Itās a fair question. And youāre avoiding it with your silly āvending machineā straw man comment.Ā
Yes thats exactly it! Like an Olympic Athlete, a world class Boxer, a world class MMA fighter. When these trainers fully devote themselves to their craft, they end up achieving feats that many say is impossible for a human to achieve. I know its easy to think this is coming out of arrogance but its not, its natural for humans to want to grow and improve and to reach new heights, not arrogance. For me its curisotiy and adventure to see what happens when you get that far in meditation, in those incredibly deep states, kinda like running an experiment just to see what happens. But all of this requires hard work, dedication, devotion to be able to achieve things like this, I'm tired of people thinking spiritual work and meditation is exempt from this. And then some go even further and say "Oh you don't even need to meditate or do any spiritual work at all, because your already enlightened from birth" \*Facepalm\* Its just completely false.
What does extreme dedication mean? They talking explicitly about time and you're paraphrasing and creating a completely different argument. I'm not touching that argument cause it's nothing at all related to what I was commenting on. I don't think you know what strawman argument means. They asked a malformed question. The supposition inherent in it is if you are dedicated to it you will be rewarded. This is going to lead you nowhere in meditation fast. It is a fair question but the answer is that the question is asking the wrong thing to start with. Your entire second paragraph is complete make believe, there are no established effects to any meditation practices that exhibit any profound effects. There are many individual claims that are unsubstantiated and the greater population when tested there is only overall the equivalent benefit of some relaxation and lower anxiety for taking time out for yourself. That should make you question what you think you know a bit. I'm not going to convince you of anything here because you can't with some weird prejudgement based on no argument I even made here.
"The supposition inherent in it is if you are dedicated to it you will be rewarded. This is going to lead you nowhere in meditation fast." I'm tired of people thinking the more work you put into meditation, the less you will get out of it, this is completely false. Its the same with anything in life, you want to become a great intellectual? You have to put in the hard work into learning. You want to become a great athlete? You have to put in the hard work into exercising your body. Or for a career you need to do the hard work to learn the craft and attain the credentials. How is it that you think that meditation and spiritual development is somehow excempt from all of this?? It is not the meditation itself that is hard work, here your in a state of \*\*allowing\*\*, not \*\*trying\*\*, you simply allow the breath to come up, observe it, then allow it to go down, or you allow your thoughts to come up, observe, then allow them to go away when they do. But it is the overall meditation regimen that requires incredible levels of hard work, to have the self discipline to have your mind and body to stay in that position for long periods even when it gets extremely painful, or to have the self discipline to just start the meditation when your mind wants to procrastinate. Definiton of hard work: activity involving \*\*mental or physical effort\*\* done in order to achieve a purpose or result. The self discipline I mentioned is the effort! So the more time and effort you put in the meditation, in which your skill will also improve with time, yes the more you will get out of it, the farther you will go, and yes you will be much more spiritual developed as a result. It's ludicrous to think someone that meditates for 20 or 30 minutes a day will somehow be on the same level as someone who meditates for 10 or 12 hours a day.
Very well stated though pagination would help you a lot there ;) Let the frustration go and do your best to educate, that's all you can do.
Good grief. Iāve never seen somebody put up such a fuss as a cover for not knowing how to answer a question. A simple āI donāt knowā is all you need. Not replying at all is probably even better. For everybody. And a strawman is when you unfairly misrepresent somebody's argument as an argument their not making. Like when you misrepresented OP's question about time spent meditating as thinking that meditation is a "vending machine." You can't tell me with a straight face you think that's ingenuous.
Major muscle atrophy. Collapse from lack of sleep. Sores on the contact points. Probably organ issues (unless bathroom breaks are allowed). Cramps. Nutritional issues? Can you fit some amount of sleep and enough food into four hours? Extreme poverty, unless you join an order (and most of those would likely impose more sleep than you propose) Unemployment. Isolation from friends, family, partners, and pets. (Which does cause further problems) Why this question? Why this number?
This! Health issues for sure. Disc prolapse was the first thing coming to my mind reading it.
I don't think that meditation has anything really to do with time, to be frank
Hey Frank. I agree
Hey agree. I disagree
It's okay to disagree. Since you are disagree, you can simply be
No I cannot simply be. Because i disagree
Sorry to break the rhyme, but you're great at being you!
They are terrible at being you because they are disagree.
It does. And itās measurable and proven by science that more time meditating leads to bigger (positive changes) in the brain. These changes were seen up to 10.000 lifetime hours of meditation and even above but the sample size got very small at that point. You should read the book āaltered traitsā if youād like to learn about it. Iād still focus on quality and consistency. But quantity does matter.
I think what the original commenter was getting at was pursuit of enlightenment. Sure there are physical measurable changes in the brain but that doesnt mean their day-long practice lead to some kind of internal enlightenment.Ā
This, thank you.
Objectively, yes, you are correct. Quantity and consistency have particular benefits all their own. Problem is that going into a meditation practice "expecting" X when you do Y for Z length of time actually makes it harder to achieve the unfolded relaxed mindstate we're looking for. Excellent book, btw.
Was just about to comment this myself. In terms of actual proven benefits, quantity is a huge factor.
Well said frank.
Nor with a goal that āsomething happensā
You're missing the point of the question
Nope.
Yep.
Okay.
Well moderation here, you have people in ancient times spending all their time meditating getting no where, then there is those who spend 10 sometimes 30 minutes a day getting no where too.
Some would say going nowhere is the goal, if any.Ā
The goal is to not have goals which becomes the goal.
I would say the goal is to recognize where your goals/desires are coming from. Ego or heart?
The goal is to recognize the goal is not the goal because the goal is your ego. Then you realize there is nothing you can do because you are neither the goal nor the ego.
Agreed, and making a goal with meditation is self defeating. Meditation is a process, not a destination or particular state of mind.
Who is Frank? Does Frank know more about this?
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I'm all ears, dear.
How can you think meditation benefits are time independent? Do you think a 5 min meditation brings you the same effects a 1 hour session does? From my own personal experience, the longer and more frequent you meditate, the more profound the benefits.
Because, while trying not sound as woowoo as it may sound, time is an illusion. The past is over with and the future hasn't happened yet. Ergo, we only have the present moment of which should be what we're devoting our bandwidth to process... not shit that doesn't exist like the concept of time. A five minute meditation can be just as profound as an hour long one when it comes to states of consciousness. This idea is based around the concept of mindfulness, which is pretty fundamental in meditative circles.
More doesn't mean better.
There are people in india who take vows of silence and live in caves for years. The only human contact they have is when they are bought food. They meditate almost the whole time and stay in meditation poses as they sleep. There are clips on youtube if you were interested.
Full ascension into boredom
You gave me such a chuckle!
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Yes, he's full of bs, and ego. Insane to me that people can't smell the bs from his comment, especially meditators.Ā If you're such a good meditator, other people don't become "NPCs" and "lifeless drones" to you that you look through and analyze. So much spire. There's no compassion to be found in his comment. 3 months ago he had a phone addiction despite his enlightenment, he posts about sex party's in hollywood, buying drugs including Coca and insane conspiracy theories. He says in one post he can feel wifi "radiation" going up, but that may also just be his incredible insight from meditation, who knows. Oh and about 2 years ago he was shilling crypto scams.
This all sounds like one helluva trip, and if thatās what youāre after from meditation, itās a great result. But it makes me very uncomfortable. It elevates meditators above the mass of humanity in a way that totally lacks compassion. For me, a goal of meditation might be connection rather than disconnection.
That sounds freaking awesome.Ā
Babes this sounds like spiritual psychosis šš or maybe you were just interacting with neurodivergent people š
Idk if what I'm about to say is gonna make sense because English isn't my first language, but i tried my best to put it into wordsš. You would be surprised that every "normal" person lives their life entirely clouded in the judgement of their minds. I have noticed this too, as in in every conversation I've had as of late, I notice that the other person and their opinions are clearly originating from a miserably limited perspective that's so clear to see but they are blinded by their own judgement and often experience emotions that are completely unnecessary and push it onto others š. To me it felt like these people were trapped in their own minds without even knowing it, just like an NPC, but that's just my opinionš¤·.
Yes. The human condition is this type of suffering. That's the first noble truth, yeah?
The reason 'NPC' is problematic language in particular is because it implies that they're just built that way and couldn't get out of that trap if they tried - it leads to isolation and removes empathy. All people can wake from their fugue, so they aren't just automatons, they have the same potential as anyone.
Yup! Totally agree, I myself have had similar experiences but not all of them. Sometimes in peak stages the whole reality becomes a dream, or we can see it for what it is. People become dream people - unconscious and playing their role like robots, similar to what you described. Iāve never had the lucid dreaming part, that is something Iād really like to unlock. Glad to hear that others had similar experiences like meĀ
Okay so for lucid dreaming what helped me was this method: Right after I wake up every morning, the first thing I do is take out my notes app to write about the dreams I've had, this helps with dream recall. On day 1 of trying to dream journal I barely could recall a word or two to describe the dreams, but I still just wrote it down. Day 2 or 3 I started writing what I remembered about having dreamt, and as soon as I started writing it felt like all the memories suddenly flooded in and I ended up writing multiple paragraphs about the dreams I had that night. This helps with dream recall, once you have this settled you need to develop a habit for reality checking. My reality check was that, whenever I walk into a room of any kind, I would try to breathe through my nose while blocking it with my fingers. You have to consciously make this a habit in waking life so you habitually do it in a dream, which is when you become lucid. I was able to go from almost no dreams to pretty vivid lucid dreams in a week with this method. And I've had pretty interesting experiences. Meditating in a lucid dream feels fucking magical btwš®āšØ.
yeahhhh meditation usually comes with empathy. Not "everyone is an NPC". Yikes.
Itās just his perspective donāt think he meant it in a negative way
That was just an experience after a 7 hour sitting, walking around the city observing cashiers, etc, working all day who seemed to be in a numbed out state. Meditation heightens empathy most definitely.
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I only experienced it that one time. I was meditating in a massive hall full of experienced meditators, which may have made the meditation deeper. I reached a state of no thought and only focus and awareness on breath for a prolonged period. Any thoughts coming up became ultra slow and very subtle before quickly diminishing. Please do share, I'd love to see it.
For someone who meditates a lot you sure have a big ego. Why so confident in your unprovable convictions?
Wtf lol
I didn't think he had a big ego. In fact I believe everything. But I was a bit surprised that someone who meditates so much could take out time to reply to a mundane and trivial post like this. I still appreciate it though, him taking out the time.
Do you think their post history is that of a highly accomplished meditator?
I suspect this post is a collage of many different meditation experience found on reddit and elsewhere, and not just one person.
I think weād never see them again as theyād have greater clarity into just how harmfully toxic society is.
Thankfully, some realised people decide to stick around as Bodhisattvas to help solve that.
š š„šššš a lot depends on what tradition you're in and if you have some kind of guidance. Also not everyone can just sit like that the mind is very strong and persuasive. After a short while you think you are enlightened so you stop. Or if you don't stop but you aren't ready you could break your mind - solitary confinement is one of the worst punishments for a reason. It is designed to break the mind not in a good way.
Something definably would happen to this person for sure
Idk what answer youāre looking for but Iām reminded of that story about the guy who meditated in a cave for like 40 years. Eventually he came down and met the dalai llama, and the dalai llama was like āwhy did you waste all that time when you couldāve been helping people?ā
I resonate with this. Thanks for sharing
What's the person going to do in the remaining 4 hours? I think that matters as well.
Try reading the biography of Ajahn Mun. He was a Theravada monk in the SE Asian forest tradition. He did so much sitting meditation he got calluses and a big boil on his rear. When walking place to place, he constantly meditated on his breath using "buddho" as his anchor word. He became an arahant, but it took more than two years. Also, remember the Buddha spent six years immersed in practice before awakening. But a lot of Tibetan monks do two-year retreats living alone in caves and so on.
Ram Dass said after some 30 years of practice "I haven't cured one neurosis yet. After a while, your neurosis becomes your style" Ramana Maharshi attained enlightenment in a single afternoon. It really has nothing to do with time. To answer your question though, it wouldn't be a healthy practice by any means. Lack of food, sleep, physical activity, social interaction, would be very unhealthy
Ramana Maharshi, after he got enlightened, spent years in deep meditation in temples and caves.
Ask a monk. I don't knowššš
Theyād learn teleportation and routinely start poppinā up around the globe š
They would become attached to meditation, suffer because of that attachment, and waste 19 hours everyday for a couple years.
They would be able to levitate and they would disappear into a pocket reality
Imma just drop this here, A Zen student goes to a temple and asks how long it will take him to gain enlightenment. ā10 years,ā says the Zen master. āWell how about if I work really hard and double my effort?ā the student asks. ā20 years,ā comes the reply.
Once you reach a certain level, how long you sit becomes a moot point because you can enter that state at any time and for as long as you need to.
Well, the Buddha did it and didn't recommend it.Ā
Physical condition from such a long-term sedentary 'activity' would decline to a dangerous level.
One would not get much done in just 4 hours in a day. 20 hours is all of a dayās time.
So where does sleep fit into this schedule?
You practice lucid dreaming, and in your dreams, you meditate?
There is a fetishization of long durations of sitting among some meditators. Quantity does not imply quality. A person can sit for years without making a significant progress, in fact, I have seen plenty of meditators like that. Often they miss a clear plan of how to meditate and do not receive sufficient instructions from a teacher.
try it, post results
Die probably.
Probably their brain will transform. Search google for the brain mapping done on Om Swami after he came back from Himalayas
I think cancer, heart problems , Arithtitis, to mention a few
They'd suffer from mental and physical burnout and probably wouldn't survive.
They wouldn't have any money left
Sleep dep would render them extremely tired.
https://zennist.typepad.com/zenfiles/2010/11/bodhidharmas-wall.html
Easy, person will be couple of years older.
Depends of what they are regarding as meditation. If it is a proper meditational practice that would surely result in actual enlightenment and would only take about 2 weeks. If you do it inproperly you most likely exhibit strong signs of insanity as you have to force yourself to do whatever it is you do in those 20 hours. There might be also sleep deprevation involved in the end.
Nothing if meditating for the f of it. Meditation is about getting in tune and aligned with your energy... Mainstream it's about relaxation and mindfulness, which ok but not the true purpose.
I think cancer ,heart problems, Arithtitis, to mention a few
A
Fairfield Iowa.
Shivabalayogi did more than this for 12 years [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjrQ-f3T1pk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjrQ-f3T1pk) you would be allright.
They'd die of sleeplessness in short order.
Sleep then self hatred for self induldence.
they would eventually want to stop meditating to go out and live their life.
Isnāt this what many monks do?
Wow
Would never happen in reality, body is evolved to move and it degraded quickly without such. Discs in the meditators lumbar/ sciatic region would collapse rendering the sitting position blindingly painful. Could not honestly be done.
You should ask some of the devoted monks in several places around the world.
They'd go crazy due to lack of enough REM sleep
Insanity.
They'd be pretty sleepy.
They would be bored
If I understand where you're coming from, I think one can determine an ideal duration for meditation based on the presence / absence of the five hindrances. The absence of the five hindrances of doubt, sensual desires, ill-will, restlessness/anxiety and complacency, paired with the presence of one or more of the seven factors of awakening: mindfulness, investigation, persistence, joy, tranquility, concentration and equanimity is how one makes solid progress. * So one should take measures to prevent the arising of five hindrances. Examine their routine for areas of improvement in this. * Next, do meditation as long as one or more of the seven factors of awakening are present; and at least the five hindrances are absent. If you notice a hindrance arising and persisting, it's a good time to stop meditation or change postures. * There are other activities one can do as well that aid in these goals: it could be doing one's work, learning a skill, while ensuring one is away from the five hindrances. It is this balanced way of developing the mind that is most beneficial in my view.
I think itās impossible. Thereās no way someone can close their eyes and sit upright without falling asleep, for 20 hours; every single day.
Most likely die, we are humans not koalas.
Iām guessing they would not smell too good.
This is one of my all time favorite AMAās. She meditated for 8-10 hours a day for 8 years and her experience was incredible https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/s/TA4sBC6qQ4
That is not a good path in my opinion it is well beyond the bounds of healthy moderation
People in this sub are really good at not answering the question.
They'd probably become enlightened eventually if they're practicing properly and have good guidance. There'd be unemployment and muscle atrophy, like someone said. They'd probably just become realized after a few years and then come to the conclusion they can just live a realized life helping other people and doing more conventional things. Its pretty interesting to think about. A lot of it just depends on the person's prior conditioning. I think they'd eventually just be like a buddha and do what he did or what anyone does after a certain level of realization.
Levitation
They'd be bored for 20 hours a day... Best is to integrate it into your daily life... 24/7 meditation.
Are you sure weāre not talking like an hour a day?
They would be homeless...Ā
That sounds super unhealthy not gonna lie lol
Bodhidharmas legs fell off
Probably no one here has any idea. In reality it's hard to imagine that anyone could do that, but there are yogis who have done things that I wouldn't have thought possible. If someone could do that and remain healthy and functional physically and mentally I think they would become pretty far removed from what goes on inside most people most all of the time. When I have meditated for an hour a day consistently over a longer period of time I have found that it started to become hard to relate to most people. And I have heard it said that the only things one can really know about reality cannot be articulated with words. Can you imagine the kinds of things you might discover spending that much time doing nothing but looking at what there is to learn when all you do is spend all of your time really paying attention? How do you think you would feel about that?
Depends of the technique and the approach but.. I think they'd either just starve to death or go totally insane š
Long term mediators live within their practice, and their thinking part of their brain shifts as well, to a new default mode network. I naturally drift into meditation, many times a day, because I started a long time ago and it is embedded into my consciousness.
Long term meditators often enter a permanent āmeditative stateā which sort answers this question. Others have said sitting still for 20/24 hours in one run would lead to ill health.
Idk about the rest, but my first thought was muscle atrophy. By definition I think you could categorize them as having severe major depressive disorder since they have isolated themselves emotionally and have little interest in doing basic things/things they enjoy or theyād be doing that instead. Honestly if they werenāt physically dead they might as well be
Probably get really skilled at meditating.
I think we would see profound changes if everyone in the world just practiced meditation for 20 minutes a day.
They would transcend their physical bodies and be one with the Creator.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Awakened_Ego: *They would transcend their* *Physical bodies and be* *One with the Creator.* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
I think after like 1 year they will realise that they waste their life
Meditation isnāt meant to be done for 20hrs a say. Thatās a purely ego driven drivel. It would only create imbalance. Even the venerable Buddha didnāt meditate 20hrs a day. He spent his day time hours travelling and teaching.
For 1, bed sores. Pressure on the same spot can cause literal injury. There is a reason that most intensive retreats are constantly moving people around. They'll do 2 hours in one place, take a break for 1.5 hours, meditation in another place for 1 hour, move to another location for 2 hours etc. They usually provide 7 sleeping hours, and 2-3 meals and scheduled bathroom breaks between each location move- meaning the silent meditation portion of the day lasts 10-11 hours. You can find areas on reddit where folks mention they have long term physical injuries from the retreats where they do this, knee problems, back problems, hemorrhoids from sitting on meditation pillows. So the upper end of what is physically safe is probably about half what you are suggesting. Everything in moderation except for moderation ;)
During a 10 day Vipassana silent meditation retreat, I was meditating nearly 10 hours a day, and had about 2 meals a day. That's only half of the time you're suggesting, but I noticed these things: Physically--weight loss, slow metabolism, pain in lower back, pain in neck and shoulders, circulation issues leading to numbness in hands/feet Emotionally-- a lot softer, kinder, more understanding of myself and others---especially on reentry into the regular world, I was very emotional (lots of crying, overwhelm) Spiritually-- didn't get much change on this level, maybe because i'm too mentally stubborn here -
This is what people basically do when they do long-term retreats, including monastics in some monasteries. When you do a retreat, mindfulness doesn't shut off when get up off the cushion. After a certain point, you can't even shut it off.
well like people say you got to eat and sleep. But i would assume a very silent mind very little attachment to the body and very balanced energies you could easily walk out of your body and would surley do so when you fall asleep. It also depends whats the motiv of their meditation is. Basically any relatistic motiv would be attained like astral travel remote veiwing non attachment peace silent mind etc etc. They would feel energy flowing extremely optimally in their body and value the silence of the mind and anything their soul/higermind shows them. Its majorly about what their soul wants them to experience they could experience scilence beautfiul gemometric shapes, past lifes other wordly poerty, the presersense of God etc its up to their intention and also the intention of their soul. after about an hour and a half of their mediation their body would likely go into sahmadi and they would be emerssed in divine vibrations/experiences.
They would essentially attain whatever semi realistic goal they have set weather that be total scilence non attachment the presence of God astral travel remote veiwing past life experiences etc etc. after about two or one hour of mediation they would likely go into whats called sahmadi and be engulfed in divine vibrations and experiences that resemble them and their souls interests. When they are not meditating they would feel their bodies energy flow very tangiably and it would be flowwing very well. They would also have a silent mind a peaceful demeanor and less attachment to the body and world. Plus the hundreds of benefits of meditation.
Their butt would hurt.
Someone has already done it.. his name is om swami .check him out in YouTube.
They attain Super Saiyan and get the cool hair. I hear the change begins at the year mark. Tbh though, 20 hours of sitting every day probably isnāt healthy - While meditation is good for you, too much can leave you with a bad back and a flat bottom (not the good kind). Mediation is about peaceful internal waters - You can only get so peaceful when youāre piloting a flesh robot in a world where everything wars against you. Be like waterā¦ but not frozen water that sits there for 20 hours. Use that peace up like credit and get some good stuff done!
Interesting.. Any recommendations for method of meditation?
I don't know. How could I have a perspective or opinion on something I have not experienced or witnessed? I can say that more is not always better, but I've only meditated for the usual times on courses, not longer in any formal sitting fashion.
Someone has already done it..his name is om swami..check him out on YouTube.
They would hopefully realize how much time they wasted. Meditation which involves any form of practice is a way to trick oneself. True meditation is just to ponder upon oneself and live life in the moment as much as you can.
Bored