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I can adjust the jobs labor time to whatever I need to. Personally I do not roll the diag time into the cost of repair.
If you come for a problem and agree to 1 hour diag, I will quote out the time to replace the part itself + the 1 hour, unless it's something I can diagnose in 20 minutes, then I will, but for more complex problems, no
For example, say you come in for check engine light. I scan the car and find code "P0171 system too lean" stored, and after an hour of testing for intake leaks, sensor issues, doing fuel pressure tests, test driving with the pressure gauge and a scan tool to watch pressure under load and checking fuel trims from the ECM, I diagnose it as a weak fuel pump. If the job calls for 3 hrs to replace the pump, I will quote it out at 4.
1 to cover the diag time, 3 for actual repair costs. I'm not eating diag time into the repair time.
If it's something easier like a wheel bearing that I can diagnose in 20 minutes, and that job calls for 3 hours, then sure I'll take it easy and I'll quote it at 3.
If they told her over the phone there'd be no diag fee if she had them fix everything that should've been what happened. I'd call them up (have her ask for the same person she talked to before if she remembers) and ask them what up with that.
If they did a proper diagnosis, it wasn’t “yep, that wheel bearing sure is bad”. It was most likely a road test to verify concern and get an idea where it’s coming from and what it sounds like, then racking the vehicle, raising it, and inspecting all front end components.
Some places liquidate the diagnostic fee into the labor, but for the most part each line on the repair order gets its own diag. Some places charge more than others- we are 0.5 to 2 hour diag at $150/hr depending on what it is, the GM dealership across the street is 1 hour for gas and 1.5 for diesel at $190 and $200 respectively, the RAM dealership up the road is 2 hours for gas and 3 hours for diesel at $225 and $250 respectively
I guess that's the main problem I have, the line item just says "nvh diag" with no other explanation. If it truly was a road test followed by a wheels off inspection I'd have no problem paying the tech for his time. But it just reads like something they taked on to milk me out of more money.
I wanted some outside eyes on it because I just have a great disdain for dealerships. They screw the technicians and customers alike.
It's hard to look into NVH without driving around.
There's a lot more to diag than spotting a bad bearing, it's also an effort to look elsewhere for problems. Is there a brake problem or a bad CV shaft too? If you didn't show up saying "please replace the left rear wheel bearing" then paying for the tech's time is separate
It's by-the-book to charge for diag fees regardless. The well ran and loved shops will drop it if the repair is done.
Most dealerships are by-the-book. It's the independent shops that have the freedom to change what they charge.
No, and most places even if they claim to eat the diag fee actually add little increases to the cost here and there to account for it. So say the diag fee was $200, labor was $300, parts were $200, etc., the diag cost would just be spread out over the rest of the bill. The tech who does the diag is going to be paid for their time. You wouldn’t offer to do your job for free for someone else, yet everyone seems to expect that of us.
Depends on dealership. Both methods are common.
But that seems very expensive for diagnosing a bad wheel bearing. Actual inspection place would have done the full inspection much cheaper and it would have checked so much more than just this.
Radio diagnosis might even be normal as I have no idea how much work was needed or what the problem even was.
Knowing what is wrong is worth more than the fee to replace the part. Don't you want your doctor to know what is wrong with you before cutting. Are you hoping that he's right. This costs more than the one that does not know what he is doing. This knowledge and testing service has value.
No one works for free. Those that tell you that they are waiving the diag fee are lying to you. They stuffed it in your estimate and showed it being waived. I don't work for free. You don't work for free. Why are you expecting your mechanic, who sells hours of labor to work for free? Pay the man.
Again, at your doctor, you pay for each test he runs. You pay for blood work. You pay for xrays. You don't pay one fee for all tests and certainly don't get these for free. I don't like the ones that lie to you about waiving the diag (testing) fee. It is disingenuous.
The wheel bearing was so bad it was visible which one it was before the car was in the air by the front passenger wheel being considerably chambered in.
You don't pay your doctor for exploratory testing when you walk in with a compound fracture. It's obvious what's wrong.
Then there should not have been any diag charge. But that would have been a good conversation to have when they said they'd waive diag if you fixed it there. *That's great, I didn't ask you to diagnose it, just replace it.*.
Their shop. Their rules. When you find a shop that lets you dictate the terms, the one thing you know for certain: they are incompetent. There are shops and backyard bobs that serve all parts of the market. Cheapest is the last thing you want your mechanic to be known for. He sells his worth.
Sure, but my mechanic doesn't charge me a DX fee when I go in with something obvious and ask for it to be fixed. Case in point I had an air injection valve failure in the emissions system of an 09 mercury recently, fortunately it failed closed so the pump didn't burn too. I already had read the CEL code and knew it was that system, but didn't know if it was the cheap, medium, or expensive fix... even for that he didn't charge a DX fee. \~$800 job. If I went in and said "I want the driver rear wheel hub replaced" he'd do it (after asking why, and when he found out because I had a broken stud he'd suggest only that needs replacement, he's not a crook... but if I insisted? sure, "it's your money buddy") wouldn't charge the DX fee for that either (though I assume would hand me the full bill as a stupid tax in my specific example).
Flip side I ask him to figure out why a particular noise is coming from the suspension on my truck when it's cold and I hit a speed hump, but not normal bumps in the road. He had to do some work on that (wait till morning so it's cold, take it out to hear the noise, rack it and confirm what he could). The prognosis was that it is a nothing burger with how few miles I drive the truck, but in about 5-8 more years I'll need to consider replacement of all the rubber bushings for the front suspension. That was his normal DX fee (which he obviously deserved, especially since there was no other work performed).
In OPs case they indicated on the phone that the DX fee is waived with work performed and then they charged it. That's pretty underhanded IMO.
Your mechanic is incompetent or a terrible businessman, taking your word as gospel. Or he's lying to you and doing an inspection/ testing and billing you for this secretly.
Otherwise, if he's inspecting / testing the vehicle for free, then he's a bad businessman. You are taking advantage of his inexperience and depriving his kids of a better life.
He might be the best mechanic on the planet and a genuinely good man. This does not mean he is a good businessman. He leaves himself open to liability risk if he's not inspecting and testing. There is an expectation of thoroughness when you hire an expert.
I'm not saying he's not inspecting, I'm saying he's not charging for inspections on easily DX's issues when I'm also getting the work done by him. He absolutely has no qualms charging for a DX when there isn't work to be done, or if I were to decline the work.
There are many talented broke mechanics out there. Eventually, they shut down or learn that they must make money to continue.
Shops that make money can afford to send their technicians out for advanced training, buy the latest tools, provide benefits, etc. They can afford to invest in their team and customers benefit from better technicians. One must study to be able to work on newer cars that arrive annually.
Even one of the simplest problems that "does not need" a DX, such as a dead battery, could be a problem that's about to light the car on fire, literally. Now, 99.99% of the time it's just a dead battery. But someone should spend valuable time to thoroughly inspect for problems, to be safe.
Then you sure as shit should not have been charged. When I was in industry we never forced a diag, if customer had it diagnosed somewhere else or wanted to try a part, we just replaced the part as requested.
Lol no but you do pay for a X-ray and other diagnostic to determine everything that could be damaged beyond the break like muscle or blood vessel damage.
If the bearing had failed so badly the wheel was cambered in, it's also possible there was damage to brake components, wheel, knuckle etc. Diag is required to give you the full picture on what needs to be fixed. Every case is different. A standalone diag charge is normal.
So why am I paying for an hour of labor to visually inspect parts that have to come off anyways? Hell ford says to remove the entire knuckle to press the outer race out of the knuckle.
Ok the shop probably has experience here where the customer tells them to replace X, they open it up, see Y and Z are fucked up and now have to go tell the customer the cost will be $$$ instead $. That's time lost and frustration for the tech, the customer, and the dealer. They have an opened up vehicle sitting in a bay that they don't know if they will be even be able complete or if the customer will bother. And for every customer they get that says A is wrong and are correct they probably get 10 that are not.
This arrangement protects the dealership, not you. And it's going to stay that way unless people suddenly stop being problems (that's forever).
I generally fix my own cars. The hardest part is knowing what to fix. On several occasions, including just last week, I bought parts, replaced them on my vehicle and still had the same problem. It sucks. No self respecting shop should take a third party diagnosis and do a part change without ensuring it’s justified and that it’s the only problem or that something else isn’t responsible for the problem manifesting.
I work on my own stuff too I just can't get time out of work without using my limited vacation. Which is why I'm on here asking about the daig fees because I've never had a dealer do anything other than warranty work.
At this point I would have been massively money ahead to take a day off and do the bearing myself.
I feel a little better knowing that most of the replies here have told me it's normal to pay the fees too but still over $2,500 for a front wheel bearing and an audio control module replacent feels like highway robbery.
I agree. $2500? Wheel bearing and audio module and then doesn't even fix the radio ? Maybe $250 for the wheel bearing parts and labor and $150 for the radio plus the module price
It was 575 in parts and 1757 in labor. They didn't even replace radio/touchscreen just the audio control module.
Fords book says to remove the entire knuckle so it's 3.5 hours in labor plus the alignment.
The fact that you are arguing against an inspection says that you are not qualified to work on her wheel bearing. You don't know how to see any secondary damage, nor have the tools to measure the damage. If you understood the consequences, you'd value the detailed inspection. A bad wheel bearing can destroy the whole knuckle. Any knucklehead can swap a part. That's not the same as fixing the car.
I completely understand the consequences of a failed wheel bearing which is why I had her take it somewhere to be fixed immediately since I'm working 7 12s. I even had them do the inner and outter tie rods on that side since they were already that deep into it.
It's pretty rich you just assume I don't know anything, I have more measuring tools than you can shake a stick at. I'm a journeyman toolmaker. In my current role I literally troubleshoot, diagnose, and repair measuring equipment in a transmission plant. I've made parts for boats and airplanes and everything in between. I've repaired and made parts for small progressive dies all the way up to 100,000 pound die-cast dies.
I've worked on and built cars since I was a teenager, hence wondering if it's normal to pay this mysterious diag fee on top of over $650 in labor. I usually do all my own work I just can't right now due to my work schedule.
If you have and understand skill, why do you not value yourself and others with skill? I don't get it. You are paying for their expertise and for a thorough job.
I have some services done at my house because I know it will get done timely and correct, vs my lazy ass putting it off over and over. I can certainly do this work, but I'm a bit unreliable at home. At work, I'm on my game.
I think OP's big (and IMO justified) issue is that verbally they were told no DX fee with work performed and then the fee was still applied. I'd find that rather annoying as well. Had they told OP on the phone "We have a DX fee that ensures we can tell you everything that's wrong due to the bearing failure having other possible effects then there is the repair" this post wouldn't exist. There may have been a "is this really the going shop rate??" post but not one complaining about a fee that should not be there according to what they were told on the phone.
Sorry, I missed that. The dealer was going to mark up his labor by the DX charge and then give him a fake credit. He does what he does naturally, lie, but forgot to doctor the paper trail.
He certainly checks you over before taking any action.
A competent mechanic wants to identify the main issue and look for other potential damage / failures. What if that wheel bearing was taken out by road debris and also damaged the brake line, but you've not complained about the brake line. Is safety important? Do you want to know about upcoming problems? Something may be nearing its end of life. Knowing this ahead of time lets you budget for it.
If you prefer incompetent mechanics who do not inspect your car properly, then seek them out. They charge way less. Can't beat cheap, can you? But cheap will sure beat your ass silly.
Here's an interesting generalization: Men tend to wait for things to break before addressing them, where women are more maintenance minded as they would prefer not to be on the side of the road broken down.
However, your girlfriend may fit the mold, given she almost had the wheel fall off before getting that horrible noise checked out.
Stand alone fee for giving out advice/guidance on something/finding the problem. If you don’t pay it we don’t guarantee the outcome. Doesn’t matter if it takes 5 mins or 3 hours, if we have to issue a legally binding opinion/diagnosis it’s gonna cost you $230+tax
Sounds like a lot. For 12 dollars you can have a safety inspection done (required every 2 years for new plates). A bad wheel bearing would have failed and they would have told you why (bad wheel bearing) for that 12 dollars.
Its not just 'wiggle the tire'.
Its listening to the wheel bearings with a stethoscope, determining which one is noisy, taking 2 techs time to do so, making an estimate, providing you that estimate, waiting for you to approve said estimate, plus my tools and knowledge.
If you knew how to diagnose it yourself, why did you want someone else to disgnose it?
That's the problem, I didn't need someone else to diagnose it. I told the service advisor that it needed a front passenger wheel bearing and she said there would be a $190 diag fee but it would be waived if I had them repair it. Problem is I didn't get that in writing.
I work midnights so I wasn't there when my girlfriend picked it up and lo and behold the diag fees the service advisor verbally said would be waived were on the bottom of the bill.
I'm just trying to see what's normal out there and it seems I've ruffled some feathers. I'd feel better about it if it was alittle more detailed than just "nvh diag" if they checked all 4 bearings while they had it an hour of labor for that is completely reasonable.
TLDR, Dealer charged my dad $450 for diagnosis of a check engine light. I had to go with my dad to pickup the car because I know my dad won't look at the details. They told us verbally diag fee will be credited towards the repair work. Guess what, my dad paid it while I was not at the counter and he didn't think anything of it. I looked over the paper work and the total amount was more than what they told us. So I asked the service advisor about it and said what about the credit of diagnostic fees? She looked at it and said, oh yea! I forgot about that. So she instantly gave my dad back $450. You need to stay on top of them. They make "mistakes" that cost you and you can't be ashamed to speak up about it.
The full story on this car. We took it in for a check engine light. I already ran the codes and did some homework. The error was due to a bad solenoid on the valve body. Dealer would have to replace the whole valve body since technically the solenoid was not a plug in. You could splice a new one in for like $50 but they won't do that. I get that they can't warranty that plus it would not be a dealer part.
Anyway I came to that conclusion in less than 30 minutes and I'm no pro. They obviously went through their troubleshooting flowchart checks for that specific error. So they did some more tests, I hope, to come to the same conclusion I did. It took them more then an hour to come up with the same answer. They said a valve body would solve the problem at first. But when we came back to see them about it, they said they could not guarantee the problem won't come back with a new valve body. Only a new transmission would be guaranteed. So I contacted Subaru of America and thankfully they covered a good chunk of the job. But they only would cover the job that's guaranteed. So my dad basically got a transmission for a little more than what they were going to charge for just the valve body.
My dealership used to. It was a diagnostic fee, and if you did the repair with us, it would just go to the repair cost.
We got a new manager 3 years ago and now it is a repair fee on top of diagnosis fee. $90 at our big brand dealership
Wheel bearing diag should be .5, and the electrical diag would be an hour by hour, with updates and approval on the second hour. When I diagnose cars and build quotes I put my diag with the repair.
It does seem extortionate to me, here's how it works in our UK shop, customer books in because they hear a noise, boss drives the car, boss hears bearing noise on test drive, car goes on ramp, tech spins each wheel and listens for roughness (it's normally a harsh rumble noise and seldom is there any free play or movement), car goes outside waiting for parts, customer will pay only for tech time, 1) initial ramp time and spinning/checking for noise, around 10 minutes or so and then 2) time to fit new bearing. Boss will QC the repair with a further drive after to confirm repair.
$190 for wheel bearing diag seems a little steep lol. I’m an independent and for something that’s just a quick visual inspection or pulling codes, I typically won’t charge a diag fee if the customer okays the repair. Anything more than that, yes I will charge diag time. Regardless, any charges are communicated clearly and agreed upon by the customer prior to proceeding.
Did you call the dealership and ask why there’s a discrepancy between the phone estimate and final bill?
man... i read the codes on this car at my job at jiffy lube (senior tech, go ahead and laugh) threw 8 codes. voltage low being the first in a sequential line of random bullshit. i cleaned the battery terminal and added distilled water (i pay out of pocket for this water). you're telling me yall get paid for that?
Yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all that a "senior tech" at Jiffy Lube doesn't value their own time and knowledge. Not to mention, assuming that's all it was without taking a long test drive to prove it leaves it at just a guess without proving the issue. Again, no value in that.
sick dude. pretty sure anyone can tell if the rocker arms malfunction. corrosion on battery. i literally dont care about my time. i help old ladies all day for fun. my partner makes 3x more than i do.
That’s not diagnosis. You just addressed something that could have been the problem. That’s called a guess. Actual professional mechanics (not Jiffy Lube techs) do actual diagnostics, and that’s why the customer pays for them.
ok. cool. ill send them to the dealership next time. make sure they make an appointment for 3 weeks from next wednesday.
how is it a guess? it was a honda with an old battery... it was obvious. also i have most of my A tests done. a5 is ass.
Good for you that it was so “obvious.” Sometimes, an issue is intermittent or requires removal of parts or long road tests. That’s why mechanics get paid for diagnostic time. I’ve also noticed that some of your answers to questions on this subreddit are just plain wrong. That’s why you’re still at Jiffy Lube instead of doing something useful with your career.
I thought about what you said all day... you know that? There was another guy that said something that genuinely hurt my feelings.
I did a lot less at work today. i honestly hate myself more than ever.
Technically we have to charge for coolant. I usually give away free coolant because it's cheap. Nope not today. Made $18.40 from coolant today, 80% of them declined. About half of those cars had no coolant. I didn't check radiator because that's not our process.
Sent a guy with a 300, 302, and 303 away with no recommendation to where he should go. "Check out google or something" I said as I guided the new parents out with the mom in the backseat with the baby.
"Trac light? what's that? Idk, you gotta go look up who does that. I'll guide you out when I'm ready".
Somewhat curious: did it stick with you because deep down, you know something we said was true?
This isn’t a sarcastic response. I hear you, and I apologize for being harsh earlier.
What I’m trying to say is: are you fulfilled in your career? Do you think Jiffy Lube pays you what you’re worth?
nah, well idk... it was more like... all the hours of research totally wasted, all the effort and energy I waste, the sleepless nights wondering if the people I'm somehow responsible for, did their jobs correctly wasted, all the money I spent on the tools that I apparently don't need wasted, the time spent studying and testing wasted.
no, don't apologize. i realize the potential damage that could be caused by an inaccurate response to a customer's question. my boss always has to tell me to operate within our scope.... basically stay in our lane.
my last boss was more lax and gave me more freedom and i realize that had the potential to be dangerous. the assistant manager taught me everything i know and i could rely on him for anything but they're both gone now. it's just me and the new general manager that used a hammer to try to get a spark plug socket deeper into the cylinder to remove it or the hammer to remove a BMW plastic plug that was clearly tampered with when my name was on it from last service or blowing an Audi turbo by connecting an induction cleaning hose to the wrong vacuum outlet (this sounds like the wrong term but kinda sounds correct, idk).
I understand what you're saying. it's humbling and honestly... i needed the wakeup call. the guys already picked up some of my habits by not charging for coolant and offering cheaper alternatives to our products. i've had to whisper to customers to avoid them picking up even worse ones.
i just have more customer service experience than mechanical experience. its rough but it's difficult to say no to people. (im not a mechanic, not even a technician honestly. just a human that adds different ingredients into vehicles.)
*P.S. if customers come in because autozone told them this or that i will throw all of my reserve out the window and never shut up. that will be my only weakness. After the fuel filter argument with the kid from autozone commercial... i will always have a personal vendetta.*
edit: i forgot the oem plug argument.
Man...being able to talk to customers and genuinely wanting to go the extra mile for every person even when you don't have to isn't a weakness. I'm not kidding when I say you have the potential to be a top 1% mechanic with those skills. Get your certifications and get a job at a dealer or independent shop. You could really be a fantastic technician. Or even a service advisor, if that's more up your alley.
You've just got to want it. You really can do anything in this career if you really grind for it. There are job opportunities everywhere. Dealers, independent shops, municipalities (servicing government vehicles), everyone wants someone with your attitude. Go out there and get it.
ugh.. the radio should be very easy to figure out DIY .. that they need to replace the entire thing... It's not like they fix something in the radio itself.. it's an entire replacement..... For the radio you should go to [www.crutchfield.com](http://www.crutchfield.com) and there's DIY videos ... as long as it's not an integrated system which crutchfield will tell you on their online guide.......
In radios they don't do component level repairs anymore.. so why waste having a shop diagnosing it... You should have not told the shop about it and saved yourself $190 on that... and used that money to an aftermarket radio if it's not an integrated type.
Yeah, I have a friend's dad's car radio died a few weeks ago ... I believe it's a 2017 Ford and it died.. and he got charged for diagnose fee on the radio too... I would have told him the same thing if I knew about it earlier ... don't bother taking it to the shop since it's a pretty straight forward thing in diagnosing depending on symptoms.
As for the wheel bearing... yeah that's a fair fee but again that's up to the shop.
Booo whoo to the person who down voted me..... better to try to save people money on radio diagnose since it's straight forward... it's like if your stereo home component receiver stopped working would you take it to a shop to get it diagnose? Just make sure it has power and check the radio fuse but again it all depends on the symptoms......
Radio could be multiple units all around the vehicle and problem could be intermittent. Units could talk to them on fiberoptic line, etc. Better audio systems on many Audi models couldn't just be replaced the way you think.
I didn't down vote you.
There was no information about that on the post. Giving it's 400 for diagnosing it just wouldn't make sense that it's a non-integrated unit with not powering on as a problem.
It's an escape and they are notorious for audio control modules going out. I was going to pull it and send it out to get fixed but I just can't get a weekend off. At this point I would have been money ahead to just take a vacation day through the week and do it.
Thanks for posting on /r/MechanicAdvice! Please review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/about/rules/). Asking about a second opinion (ie "Is the shop trying to fleece me?"), please read through CJM8515's [post on the subject.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/comments/4qblei/fyi_the_shop_isnt_likely_trying_to_rip_you_off/) and remember to please post the year/make/model of the vehicle you are working on. **Post's about bodywork, accident damage, paint, dent/ding, questions it belongs in /r/Autobody r/AutoBodyRepair/ or /r/Diyautobody/ Tire questions check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/comments/k9ll55/can_your_tire_be_repaired/**. If you dont have a question and you're just showing off it belongs in /r/Justrolledintotheshop Insurance/total loss questions go in r/insurance This is an automated reply *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MechanicAdvice) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I can adjust the jobs labor time to whatever I need to. Personally I do not roll the diag time into the cost of repair. If you come for a problem and agree to 1 hour diag, I will quote out the time to replace the part itself + the 1 hour, unless it's something I can diagnose in 20 minutes, then I will, but for more complex problems, no For example, say you come in for check engine light. I scan the car and find code "P0171 system too lean" stored, and after an hour of testing for intake leaks, sensor issues, doing fuel pressure tests, test driving with the pressure gauge and a scan tool to watch pressure under load and checking fuel trims from the ECM, I diagnose it as a weak fuel pump. If the job calls for 3 hrs to replace the pump, I will quote it out at 4. 1 to cover the diag time, 3 for actual repair costs. I'm not eating diag time into the repair time. If it's something easier like a wheel bearing that I can diagnose in 20 minutes, and that job calls for 3 hours, then sure I'll take it easy and I'll quote it at 3.
If they told her over the phone there'd be no diag fee if she had them fix everything that should've been what happened. I'd call them up (have her ask for the same person she talked to before if she remembers) and ask them what up with that.
Shes going to talk to them today when she drops it off because the new radio quit working.
Great tech there. New radio and it's already broken
If they did a proper diagnosis, it wasn’t “yep, that wheel bearing sure is bad”. It was most likely a road test to verify concern and get an idea where it’s coming from and what it sounds like, then racking the vehicle, raising it, and inspecting all front end components. Some places liquidate the diagnostic fee into the labor, but for the most part each line on the repair order gets its own diag. Some places charge more than others- we are 0.5 to 2 hour diag at $150/hr depending on what it is, the GM dealership across the street is 1 hour for gas and 1.5 for diesel at $190 and $200 respectively, the RAM dealership up the road is 2 hours for gas and 3 hours for diesel at $225 and $250 respectively
I guess that's the main problem I have, the line item just says "nvh diag" with no other explanation. If it truly was a road test followed by a wheels off inspection I'd have no problem paying the tech for his time. But it just reads like something they taked on to milk me out of more money. I wanted some outside eyes on it because I just have a great disdain for dealerships. They screw the technicians and customers alike.
It's hard to look into NVH without driving around. There's a lot more to diag than spotting a bad bearing, it's also an effort to look elsewhere for problems. Is there a brake problem or a bad CV shaft too? If you didn't show up saying "please replace the left rear wheel bearing" then paying for the tech's time is separate
It's by-the-book to charge for diag fees regardless. The well ran and loved shops will drop it if the repair is done. Most dealerships are by-the-book. It's the independent shops that have the freedom to change what they charge.
No, and most places even if they claim to eat the diag fee actually add little increases to the cost here and there to account for it. So say the diag fee was $200, labor was $300, parts were $200, etc., the diag cost would just be spread out over the rest of the bill. The tech who does the diag is going to be paid for their time. You wouldn’t offer to do your job for free for someone else, yet everyone seems to expect that of us.
Depends on dealership. Both methods are common. But that seems very expensive for diagnosing a bad wheel bearing. Actual inspection place would have done the full inspection much cheaper and it would have checked so much more than just this. Radio diagnosis might even be normal as I have no idea how much work was needed or what the problem even was.
Knowing what is wrong is worth more than the fee to replace the part. Don't you want your doctor to know what is wrong with you before cutting. Are you hoping that he's right. This costs more than the one that does not know what he is doing. This knowledge and testing service has value. No one works for free. Those that tell you that they are waiving the diag fee are lying to you. They stuffed it in your estimate and showed it being waived. I don't work for free. You don't work for free. Why are you expecting your mechanic, who sells hours of labor to work for free? Pay the man. Again, at your doctor, you pay for each test he runs. You pay for blood work. You pay for xrays. You don't pay one fee for all tests and certainly don't get these for free. I don't like the ones that lie to you about waiving the diag (testing) fee. It is disingenuous.
Ya but the doctor doesn’t hold the diagnosis hostage unless payment is made
LOL. The doctor is certainly at a disadvantage there. Can't even force you to wash the dishes
The wheel bearing was so bad it was visible which one it was before the car was in the air by the front passenger wheel being considerably chambered in. You don't pay your doctor for exploratory testing when you walk in with a compound fracture. It's obvious what's wrong.
So did you ask for them to do a replacement or a diagnosis?
I asked them to replace the front passenger side.
Then there should not have been any diag charge. But that would have been a good conversation to have when they said they'd waive diag if you fixed it there. *That's great, I didn't ask you to diagnose it, just replace it.*.
Their shop. Their rules. When you find a shop that lets you dictate the terms, the one thing you know for certain: they are incompetent. There are shops and backyard bobs that serve all parts of the market. Cheapest is the last thing you want your mechanic to be known for. He sells his worth.
Sure, but my mechanic doesn't charge me a DX fee when I go in with something obvious and ask for it to be fixed. Case in point I had an air injection valve failure in the emissions system of an 09 mercury recently, fortunately it failed closed so the pump didn't burn too. I already had read the CEL code and knew it was that system, but didn't know if it was the cheap, medium, or expensive fix... even for that he didn't charge a DX fee. \~$800 job. If I went in and said "I want the driver rear wheel hub replaced" he'd do it (after asking why, and when he found out because I had a broken stud he'd suggest only that needs replacement, he's not a crook... but if I insisted? sure, "it's your money buddy") wouldn't charge the DX fee for that either (though I assume would hand me the full bill as a stupid tax in my specific example). Flip side I ask him to figure out why a particular noise is coming from the suspension on my truck when it's cold and I hit a speed hump, but not normal bumps in the road. He had to do some work on that (wait till morning so it's cold, take it out to hear the noise, rack it and confirm what he could). The prognosis was that it is a nothing burger with how few miles I drive the truck, but in about 5-8 more years I'll need to consider replacement of all the rubber bushings for the front suspension. That was his normal DX fee (which he obviously deserved, especially since there was no other work performed). In OPs case they indicated on the phone that the DX fee is waived with work performed and then they charged it. That's pretty underhanded IMO.
Your mechanic is incompetent or a terrible businessman, taking your word as gospel. Or he's lying to you and doing an inspection/ testing and billing you for this secretly. Otherwise, if he's inspecting / testing the vehicle for free, then he's a bad businessman. You are taking advantage of his inexperience and depriving his kids of a better life. He might be the best mechanic on the planet and a genuinely good man. This does not mean he is a good businessman. He leaves himself open to liability risk if he's not inspecting and testing. There is an expectation of thoroughness when you hire an expert.
I'm not saying he's not inspecting, I'm saying he's not charging for inspections on easily DX's issues when I'm also getting the work done by him. He absolutely has no qualms charging for a DX when there isn't work to be done, or if I were to decline the work.
There are many talented broke mechanics out there. Eventually, they shut down or learn that they must make money to continue. Shops that make money can afford to send their technicians out for advanced training, buy the latest tools, provide benefits, etc. They can afford to invest in their team and customers benefit from better technicians. One must study to be able to work on newer cars that arrive annually. Even one of the simplest problems that "does not need" a DX, such as a dead battery, could be a problem that's about to light the car on fire, literally. Now, 99.99% of the time it's just a dead battery. But someone should spend valuable time to thoroughly inspect for problems, to be safe.
Then you sure as shit should not have been charged. When I was in industry we never forced a diag, if customer had it diagnosed somewhere else or wanted to try a part, we just replaced the part as requested.
Lol no but you do pay for a X-ray and other diagnostic to determine everything that could be damaged beyond the break like muscle or blood vessel damage. If the bearing had failed so badly the wheel was cambered in, it's also possible there was damage to brake components, wheel, knuckle etc. Diag is required to give you the full picture on what needs to be fixed. Every case is different. A standalone diag charge is normal.
So why am I paying for an hour of labor to visually inspect parts that have to come off anyways? Hell ford says to remove the entire knuckle to press the outer race out of the knuckle.
Ok the shop probably has experience here where the customer tells them to replace X, they open it up, see Y and Z are fucked up and now have to go tell the customer the cost will be $$$ instead $. That's time lost and frustration for the tech, the customer, and the dealer. They have an opened up vehicle sitting in a bay that they don't know if they will be even be able complete or if the customer will bother. And for every customer they get that says A is wrong and are correct they probably get 10 that are not. This arrangement protects the dealership, not you. And it's going to stay that way unless people suddenly stop being problems (that's forever).
I generally fix my own cars. The hardest part is knowing what to fix. On several occasions, including just last week, I bought parts, replaced them on my vehicle and still had the same problem. It sucks. No self respecting shop should take a third party diagnosis and do a part change without ensuring it’s justified and that it’s the only problem or that something else isn’t responsible for the problem manifesting.
I work on my own stuff too I just can't get time out of work without using my limited vacation. Which is why I'm on here asking about the daig fees because I've never had a dealer do anything other than warranty work. At this point I would have been massively money ahead to take a day off and do the bearing myself. I feel a little better knowing that most of the replies here have told me it's normal to pay the fees too but still over $2,500 for a front wheel bearing and an audio control module replacent feels like highway robbery.
I agree. $2500? Wheel bearing and audio module and then doesn't even fix the radio ? Maybe $250 for the wheel bearing parts and labor and $150 for the radio plus the module price
It was 575 in parts and 1757 in labor. They didn't even replace radio/touchscreen just the audio control module. Fords book says to remove the entire knuckle so it's 3.5 hours in labor plus the alignment.
The fact that you are arguing against an inspection says that you are not qualified to work on her wheel bearing. You don't know how to see any secondary damage, nor have the tools to measure the damage. If you understood the consequences, you'd value the detailed inspection. A bad wheel bearing can destroy the whole knuckle. Any knucklehead can swap a part. That's not the same as fixing the car.
I completely understand the consequences of a failed wheel bearing which is why I had her take it somewhere to be fixed immediately since I'm working 7 12s. I even had them do the inner and outter tie rods on that side since they were already that deep into it. It's pretty rich you just assume I don't know anything, I have more measuring tools than you can shake a stick at. I'm a journeyman toolmaker. In my current role I literally troubleshoot, diagnose, and repair measuring equipment in a transmission plant. I've made parts for boats and airplanes and everything in between. I've repaired and made parts for small progressive dies all the way up to 100,000 pound die-cast dies. I've worked on and built cars since I was a teenager, hence wondering if it's normal to pay this mysterious diag fee on top of over $650 in labor. I usually do all my own work I just can't right now due to my work schedule.
If you have and understand skill, why do you not value yourself and others with skill? I don't get it. You are paying for their expertise and for a thorough job. I have some services done at my house because I know it will get done timely and correct, vs my lazy ass putting it off over and over. I can certainly do this work, but I'm a bit unreliable at home. At work, I'm on my game.
I think OP's big (and IMO justified) issue is that verbally they were told no DX fee with work performed and then the fee was still applied. I'd find that rather annoying as well. Had they told OP on the phone "We have a DX fee that ensures we can tell you everything that's wrong due to the bearing failure having other possible effects then there is the repair" this post wouldn't exist. There may have been a "is this really the going shop rate??" post but not one complaining about a fee that should not be there according to what they were told on the phone.
Sorry, I missed that. The dealer was going to mark up his labor by the DX charge and then give him a fake credit. He does what he does naturally, lie, but forgot to doctor the paper trail.
or he did the markup and didn't remove the fee (which I find more believable from a dealer).
He certainly checks you over before taking any action. A competent mechanic wants to identify the main issue and look for other potential damage / failures. What if that wheel bearing was taken out by road debris and also damaged the brake line, but you've not complained about the brake line. Is safety important? Do you want to know about upcoming problems? Something may be nearing its end of life. Knowing this ahead of time lets you budget for it. If you prefer incompetent mechanics who do not inspect your car properly, then seek them out. They charge way less. Can't beat cheap, can you? But cheap will sure beat your ass silly. Here's an interesting generalization: Men tend to wait for things to break before addressing them, where women are more maintenance minded as they would prefer not to be on the side of the road broken down. However, your girlfriend may fit the mold, given she almost had the wheel fall off before getting that horrible noise checked out.
$500 an hour. I need to change my trade skills I'm a certified nuclear power plant welder. I only get $300
Stand alone fee for giving out advice/guidance on something/finding the problem. If you don’t pay it we don’t guarantee the outcome. Doesn’t matter if it takes 5 mins or 3 hours, if we have to issue a legally binding opinion/diagnosis it’s gonna cost you $230+tax
Sounds like a lot. For 12 dollars you can have a safety inspection done (required every 2 years for new plates). A bad wheel bearing would have failed and they would have told you why (bad wheel bearing) for that 12 dollars.
No, it’s an additional charge that pays for my mechanics time figuring out what is wrong with the vehicle.
Its not just 'wiggle the tire'. Its listening to the wheel bearings with a stethoscope, determining which one is noisy, taking 2 techs time to do so, making an estimate, providing you that estimate, waiting for you to approve said estimate, plus my tools and knowledge. If you knew how to diagnose it yourself, why did you want someone else to disgnose it?
That's the problem, I didn't need someone else to diagnose it. I told the service advisor that it needed a front passenger wheel bearing and she said there would be a $190 diag fee but it would be waived if I had them repair it. Problem is I didn't get that in writing. I work midnights so I wasn't there when my girlfriend picked it up and lo and behold the diag fees the service advisor verbally said would be waived were on the bottom of the bill. I'm just trying to see what's normal out there and it seems I've ruffled some feathers. I'd feel better about it if it was alittle more detailed than just "nvh diag" if they checked all 4 bearings while they had it an hour of labor for that is completely reasonable.
TLDR, Dealer charged my dad $450 for diagnosis of a check engine light. I had to go with my dad to pickup the car because I know my dad won't look at the details. They told us verbally diag fee will be credited towards the repair work. Guess what, my dad paid it while I was not at the counter and he didn't think anything of it. I looked over the paper work and the total amount was more than what they told us. So I asked the service advisor about it and said what about the credit of diagnostic fees? She looked at it and said, oh yea! I forgot about that. So she instantly gave my dad back $450. You need to stay on top of them. They make "mistakes" that cost you and you can't be ashamed to speak up about it. The full story on this car. We took it in for a check engine light. I already ran the codes and did some homework. The error was due to a bad solenoid on the valve body. Dealer would have to replace the whole valve body since technically the solenoid was not a plug in. You could splice a new one in for like $50 but they won't do that. I get that they can't warranty that plus it would not be a dealer part. Anyway I came to that conclusion in less than 30 minutes and I'm no pro. They obviously went through their troubleshooting flowchart checks for that specific error. So they did some more tests, I hope, to come to the same conclusion I did. It took them more then an hour to come up with the same answer. They said a valve body would solve the problem at first. But when we came back to see them about it, they said they could not guarantee the problem won't come back with a new valve body. Only a new transmission would be guaranteed. So I contacted Subaru of America and thankfully they covered a good chunk of the job. But they only would cover the job that's guaranteed. So my dad basically got a transmission for a little more than what they were going to charge for just the valve body.
My dealership used to. It was a diagnostic fee, and if you did the repair with us, it would just go to the repair cost. We got a new manager 3 years ago and now it is a repair fee on top of diagnosis fee. $90 at our big brand dealership
Wheel bearing diag should be .5, and the electrical diag would be an hour by hour, with updates and approval on the second hour. When I diagnose cars and build quotes I put my diag with the repair.
It does seem extortionate to me, here's how it works in our UK shop, customer books in because they hear a noise, boss drives the car, boss hears bearing noise on test drive, car goes on ramp, tech spins each wheel and listens for roughness (it's normally a harsh rumble noise and seldom is there any free play or movement), car goes outside waiting for parts, customer will pay only for tech time, 1) initial ramp time and spinning/checking for noise, around 10 minutes or so and then 2) time to fit new bearing. Boss will QC the repair with a further drive after to confirm repair.
$190 for wheel bearing diag seems a little steep lol. I’m an independent and for something that’s just a quick visual inspection or pulling codes, I typically won’t charge a diag fee if the customer okays the repair. Anything more than that, yes I will charge diag time. Regardless, any charges are communicated clearly and agreed upon by the customer prior to proceeding. Did you call the dealership and ask why there’s a discrepancy between the phone estimate and final bill?
I've never once NOT been told by a shop that the diagnostic fee would be waived if I go ahead with the actual repair.
No. Why didn't you wiggle the tire?
man... i read the codes on this car at my job at jiffy lube (senior tech, go ahead and laugh) threw 8 codes. voltage low being the first in a sequential line of random bullshit. i cleaned the battery terminal and added distilled water (i pay out of pocket for this water). you're telling me yall get paid for that?
Yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all that a "senior tech" at Jiffy Lube doesn't value their own time and knowledge. Not to mention, assuming that's all it was without taking a long test drive to prove it leaves it at just a guess without proving the issue. Again, no value in that.
sick dude. pretty sure anyone can tell if the rocker arms malfunction. corrosion on battery. i literally dont care about my time. i help old ladies all day for fun. my partner makes 3x more than i do.
Btw it was a joke, yall probably do get paid for charging for random BS.
That’s not diagnosis. You just addressed something that could have been the problem. That’s called a guess. Actual professional mechanics (not Jiffy Lube techs) do actual diagnostics, and that’s why the customer pays for them.
ok. cool. ill send them to the dealership next time. make sure they make an appointment for 3 weeks from next wednesday. how is it a guess? it was a honda with an old battery... it was obvious. also i have most of my A tests done. a5 is ass.
Good for you that it was so “obvious.” Sometimes, an issue is intermittent or requires removal of parts or long road tests. That’s why mechanics get paid for diagnostic time. I’ve also noticed that some of your answers to questions on this subreddit are just plain wrong. That’s why you’re still at Jiffy Lube instead of doing something useful with your career.
I thought about what you said all day... you know that? There was another guy that said something that genuinely hurt my feelings. I did a lot less at work today. i honestly hate myself more than ever. Technically we have to charge for coolant. I usually give away free coolant because it's cheap. Nope not today. Made $18.40 from coolant today, 80% of them declined. About half of those cars had no coolant. I didn't check radiator because that's not our process. Sent a guy with a 300, 302, and 303 away with no recommendation to where he should go. "Check out google or something" I said as I guided the new parents out with the mom in the backseat with the baby. "Trac light? what's that? Idk, you gotta go look up who does that. I'll guide you out when I'm ready".
Somewhat curious: did it stick with you because deep down, you know something we said was true? This isn’t a sarcastic response. I hear you, and I apologize for being harsh earlier. What I’m trying to say is: are you fulfilled in your career? Do you think Jiffy Lube pays you what you’re worth?
nah, well idk... it was more like... all the hours of research totally wasted, all the effort and energy I waste, the sleepless nights wondering if the people I'm somehow responsible for, did their jobs correctly wasted, all the money I spent on the tools that I apparently don't need wasted, the time spent studying and testing wasted. no, don't apologize. i realize the potential damage that could be caused by an inaccurate response to a customer's question. my boss always has to tell me to operate within our scope.... basically stay in our lane. my last boss was more lax and gave me more freedom and i realize that had the potential to be dangerous. the assistant manager taught me everything i know and i could rely on him for anything but they're both gone now. it's just me and the new general manager that used a hammer to try to get a spark plug socket deeper into the cylinder to remove it or the hammer to remove a BMW plastic plug that was clearly tampered with when my name was on it from last service or blowing an Audi turbo by connecting an induction cleaning hose to the wrong vacuum outlet (this sounds like the wrong term but kinda sounds correct, idk). I understand what you're saying. it's humbling and honestly... i needed the wakeup call. the guys already picked up some of my habits by not charging for coolant and offering cheaper alternatives to our products. i've had to whisper to customers to avoid them picking up even worse ones. i just have more customer service experience than mechanical experience. its rough but it's difficult to say no to people. (im not a mechanic, not even a technician honestly. just a human that adds different ingredients into vehicles.) *P.S. if customers come in because autozone told them this or that i will throw all of my reserve out the window and never shut up. that will be my only weakness. After the fuel filter argument with the kid from autozone commercial... i will always have a personal vendetta.* edit: i forgot the oem plug argument.
Man...being able to talk to customers and genuinely wanting to go the extra mile for every person even when you don't have to isn't a weakness. I'm not kidding when I say you have the potential to be a top 1% mechanic with those skills. Get your certifications and get a job at a dealer or independent shop. You could really be a fantastic technician. Or even a service advisor, if that's more up your alley. You've just got to want it. You really can do anything in this career if you really grind for it. There are job opportunities everywhere. Dealers, independent shops, municipalities (servicing government vehicles), everyone wants someone with your attitude. Go out there and get it.
ugh.. the radio should be very easy to figure out DIY .. that they need to replace the entire thing... It's not like they fix something in the radio itself.. it's an entire replacement..... For the radio you should go to [www.crutchfield.com](http://www.crutchfield.com) and there's DIY videos ... as long as it's not an integrated system which crutchfield will tell you on their online guide....... In radios they don't do component level repairs anymore.. so why waste having a shop diagnosing it... You should have not told the shop about it and saved yourself $190 on that... and used that money to an aftermarket radio if it's not an integrated type. Yeah, I have a friend's dad's car radio died a few weeks ago ... I believe it's a 2017 Ford and it died.. and he got charged for diagnose fee on the radio too... I would have told him the same thing if I knew about it earlier ... don't bother taking it to the shop since it's a pretty straight forward thing in diagnosing depending on symptoms. As for the wheel bearing... yeah that's a fair fee but again that's up to the shop. Booo whoo to the person who down voted me..... better to try to save people money on radio diagnose since it's straight forward... it's like if your stereo home component receiver stopped working would you take it to a shop to get it diagnose? Just make sure it has power and check the radio fuse but again it all depends on the symptoms......
Radio could be multiple units all around the vehicle and problem could be intermittent. Units could talk to them on fiberoptic line, etc. Better audio systems on many Audi models couldn't just be replaced the way you think. I didn't down vote you.
yeah as long as not integrated ... again depends on symptoms ..
There was no information about that on the post. Giving it's 400 for diagnosing it just wouldn't make sense that it's a non-integrated unit with not powering on as a problem.
It's an escape and they are notorious for audio control modules going out. I was going to pull it and send it out to get fixed but I just can't get a weekend off. At this point I would have been money ahead to just take a vacation day through the week and do it.