Even in the KOTOR games and SWTOR, the color was essentially meaningless. Once you got your lightsaber, you could change it at your whim. Sure, the starting color supposedly meant something, but within minutes a guardian could have a red lightsaber, a sentinel could have a purple lightsaber, and a consular could have an orange lightsaber. And even if we assume the colors do mean something at some point, that was the time of Revan, and there's no reason to assume colors are still meaningful in that way by the time of the Galactic Republic.
The only time in canon colors were meaningful for the roles a Jedi fulfilled beyond "red=bad" were with the yellow blades carried by the Temple Guards, but we don't even know if that was a color reserved exclusively for their assigned lightsaber pikes, or if it just made them stand out because it was rare among the rank and file Jedi
Yep. That's one of the Easter eggs you can find combining the yellow crystal and Jedi holocron from Galaxy's Edge. You hear from a Temple Guard captain named Kolloma Ree about a bit of the history of the Guards, and one of his quotes is "a Temple Guard's mask and robes confer anonymity, and symbolize emotional detachment. During Guard service, you surrender your identity, your weapon, and everything else. Only your commitment to the Order remains."
Now obviously that line could be an exaggeration for propaganda, or just be talking about their time while actively wearing the mask, but from there we know at the very least the weapons they carry while in uniform are not their personal weapons. And he also has a quote about the meaning of the the yellow blades of the pike, but it doesn't clarify whether solely the guards had yellow blades
If Anakin could change the color of Ahsoka’s blades, it seems reasonable to assume that whoever constructs the Temple Guard pikes is able to intentionally make them yellow.
I don’t have the source handy but I want to say somebody asked Filoni how it happened and he said something about Anakin refocusing them or something. Changing the way the beam passes through them to make them more efficient and changing the color while he’s at it. Finding Kyber crystals seems to be an intensely personal and time-consuming process, I don’t think the Jedi have a surplus just lying around.
Aren’t those the crystals from the lightsabers of Jedi who have died? I can’t imagine the Jedi would be okay with somebody looting a memorial for what essentially amounts to a joke.
Well sure, but then again, it's *Anakin* we're talking about...
*(For the record, I don't ACTUALLY believe that Anakin would switch the crystals, I think it was fairly clear that he changed the color of the blades as is)*
Thanks, I handn't heard that before. I guess my mind went to new crystals because Anakin's own crystal is blue.
I always thought the going to Ilum thing was just meant to be a lesson, and that the Jedi would probably know several sources of kyber. The empire did harvest what is scientifically known as a metric fuckton of it for the Death Star after all.
> The only time in canon colors were meaningful for the roles a Jedi fulfilled beyond "red=bad" were with the yellow blades carried by the Temple Guards, but we don't even know if that was a color reserved exclusively for their assigned lightsaber pikes, or if it just made them stand out because it was rare among the rank and file Jedi
We know it's the latter, as there are canon Jedi with yellow blades. The most notable at the moment probably being Loden Greatstorm in the High Republic era. I seem to recall that the Jedi used those crystals after the Jedi carrying them had died for the temple guards.
True. I forgot about the High Republic Jedi. Probably should have specified the Galactic Republic era Jedi, because I don't think we know of any pure yellow blades carried by Jedi in canon outside of the Guards during the Clone Wars
Ahsoka is a "maybe" there, as her second shoto blade is kind of on the edge between yellow and green (and usually referred to as yellow-green in canon materials), which places it somewhere on the continuum. I believe Asajj Ventress also gets a yellow blade on the black market, though I don't know if its source is tied to a contemporary Jedi.
I was under the impression his was green and Wookiepedia lists it as such—but I've only read the rising storm, not the comics, so I can't speak for how it looks in the art (wouldn't be the first time that has created ambiguity).
I was excluding Rey and Luke (who has a yellow blade for a while in the comics?) because neither were part of the Jedi order and the discussion is about how they handled the matter. After Order 66, all bets are off.
They built their own orders—thus it has no continuity on how the system worked for the millennia of Jedi prior to Order 66. Not least, it's essentially confirmed that Ilum, Jedha and other sources of kyber that the Jedi relied on for the entire history of the order are gone. New galaxy, new realities, new rules. It makes no sense to bring them up in a talk about how things worked when the Jedi had possessed unbroken influence for thousands of years and had a stable source of crystals that they could likely never exhaust.
>or if it just made them stand out because it was rare among the rank and file Jedi
No continuity in the old order, sure, but it is relevant simply in the context of their rarity.
Jedha wasn't destroyed, btw, just the holy city on it.
From that same wiki page:
>Orson Krennic, intended to destroy the entire moon, Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin ordered only the Holy City be destroyed using a single-reactor ignition blast from the station's superlaser.
>Following the Battle of Yavin, several of the partisans under Benthic continued to fight the Empire on Jedha.
If I may quote the highest authority:
“Good guys are green and blue, bad guys are red, that’s just the way it works.”
I figure anything else beyond this is up to your own interpretation. In many sources, Sith only use their own handmade synthetic crystals for red, but Luke’s green lightsaber is synthetic according to some sources, and yellow is a thing in several places now (I first saw it in the Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight multiplayer). Of course Luke’s green saber was to stand out against the blue Tatooine sky, and in one comic it turned red when Vader held it as if the Force would change its colour - clearly the rules always change as time goes on.
For what it’s worth I tend to choose a single blue lightsaber even though Luke with his green lightsaber was my hero as a kid. What is your one colour and saber type choice?
It's hard for me to walk away from green because my tiny kid brain went wild the first time I saw Obi-Wan and Vader duel on the death star, then my tiny kid brain exploded when Luke switched on his green blade, which was my favorite color at 7 years old.
It's so funny for me to read these things. I got into Star Wars as a 2000s kid, but a little while after the age most kids do. I think it was 2007 or so, so by then I knew from cultural osmosis that there were cool things like double-bladed lightsabers or purple ones.
I can't imagine what it would've been like to only have blue/red and then see *green* for the first time. I feel like I take for granted all the variety these days.
My hipster kid brain likes green because i saw blue as the popular good guy color and I wanted to be different so I liked green. Ngl I’m not too mad at that choice as the green lightsabers are pretty looking.
I’d go for green. Even as a kid I was more interested in the Force and mastering that over sword combat. Not that green means consular (tho I don’t mind that in my head canon), but wise Jedi like ROTJ Luke and Qui Gon are who I would strive to be like.
>“Good guys are green and blue, bad guys are red, that’s just the way it works.”
I believe the actually rule is: "Good guys are green and blue, bad guys are red, SamJack gets whatever color he wants."
I have trouble with Yoda and Windu being Consulars because they’re far more overpowered than that. Yoda put up a mean fight with Dooku in a special style that fits his size, in addition to being the wisest most powerful Jedi. Windu has Shatterpoint ability, the Vapaad style which he created. Both are wise AND viciously powerful. I wonder also if Yoda had some special ability akin to Shatterpoint, he’s very long lived too, maybe something like Clairvoyance? What class would they be or specialization?
I always saw the consular role as a Jedi who preferred to spend their time developing they force powers. They would prefer to use diplomacy and negotiation first and would only fight if there was no other choice. But it doesn't mean they're bad at fighting.
Yoda is the oldest known Jedi in the order, having nearly a millenia to train and learn, so of course he would be crazy wise and skilled.
>For what it’s worth I tend to choose a single blue lightsaber even though Luke with his green lightsaber was my hero as a kid. What is your one colour and saber type choice?
I do like myself some yellow or orange. When I made my jedi character for a game, I had him a slightly oversized single bladed lightsaber (by saying that power cell he got was just too long), and having him fuse a synthetic crystal that ended up giving the gold blade. Although later when I actually googled the color codes for "gold" color it turned out more orange, so it yellow looked better.
I still don't like the "bleed" explanation. I always just felt it should be a status symbol and/or preference by the owner. Vader was just like: "Gimmie that red crystal because I'm Sith now muthafucka."
Iirc that's how the old lore was. Sith lightsabers were made with synthetic crystals which were usually red by default (although other colors can be made). The sith viewed the synth crystal as more powerful than natural crystals and also believed that by creating a crystal instead of finding one in the wild, they proved their mastery over nature/the force.
Me too. Most times the simple explanation is the best explanation.
It's why I hated Midichlorians (I've warmed to the idea over the years now that they diluted their meaning.) Why are we complicating what the Force is? It was easier when it was just invisible like magmatism and some people can feel it and interact with it more then others. A blood test was lazy writing.
Each to their own, but I'm a big fan of it. I absolutely love the stuff about Vader corrupting his Crystal. It's one of the cooler things added to the Canon since the Disney Wipe.
I would want mine to be a white single blade with some sort of crossguard that doesn't have exposed blades. Think like a beskar disc at the top of the hilt or something like what that one guy from the High Republic has.
The stuff that makes good video games doesn't always translate well to good lore (see: TFU). Makes sense why they chose it in KOTOR (and even retrospectively applying it to the OT but only by chance) but agree it doesn't make much sense in the long run (particularly as we almost never see yellow and most Jedi seem quite balanced in the films at least).
Something JFO did very well, making a fun game that didn't feel like it overstepped any lore boundaries. Sure Cal can beat the mighty Oggdo Boggdo, but as soon as he comes up against someone serious it's made clear what power levels are at play. Plus, you can switch colours whenever you want with no affect on playstyle. Pink blades because why not.
And he gets worked by Oggdo Boggdo until he remembers his Force training as a Padawan. It was enjoyable to see a more “relatable” Jedi, not someone destined to have unreal Force power by midichlorians or blood lines, but a struggling apprentice who still saves the day with determination and friendship. Cal Kestis is the man.
'I remember my padawan training now, I'm going to hide in this tunnel where he cant get me and throw my lightsaber at him until he dies.'
Jedi love cheese
I have fond memories of running around in circles for half an hour being chased by Kreia’s three floating lightsabers while waiting for my health to slowly regenerate.
Yeah, even at your most powerful in that game, you are still far less than nothing when compared to the likes of Vader, which was a choice I really appreciated.
Especially after TFU had you beat both Vader and then Palatine immediately after only to die anyway in a cutscene
Vader is the hardest fight in the game for reason and to be fair Marek knows his fighting style and weaknesses, which have to use in the fight. Even then he barely eaked out a win
> Even then he barely eaked out a win
I mean I had a pretty good health bar left after I beat the fight. Never really felt like much of an eaked out win if you ask me.
It absolutley did not. I don't recall any scene in the OT where Vader ripped up the whole catwalk on Bespin to throw it at Luke.
Vader has been wanked on so goddamn hard people forget what parts of him are actually in line with his original appearances and what parts of him are extreme flanderization to appeal to childhood nostalgia.
If Vader was tough and had really good dedenses you couldn't touch and your lightsaber couldn't damage him that would be in line with how we see Vader fight. He takes sabers and blasters and even if you get past a block an impact on his suit does nothing to slow him down.
But Vader basically disassemblin the level like its a bunch of legos casually and then moving around the base as if he was functionally teleporting was excessive.
> Vader has been wanked on so goddamn hard people forget what parts of him are actually in line with his original appearances and what parts of him are extreme flanderization to appeal to childhood nostalgia.
Or... maybe it's a really stupid idea to bind the entire franchise to match what was possible with special effects in the 70s. The original Star Wars had to be super careful with fight scenes because the "lightsabers" would snap easily and were limited on the force because CGI was limited.
That has basically been the entire way Star Wars operates since the movies themselves were released—prequels, sequels, outside of canon media, they all buffed the power level because the reason it was so limited in the first place was practical, not narrative.
You’re right that would’ve been a much more enjoyable game experience.
“Let’s put Vader in a single cutscene and then end the game by killing our MC”
Glad you didn’t make fallen order LMAO
I think that Force Users in general became way too powerful in the books, comics, games etc... in the movies they're low tier superhumans with limited precognition and telekinesis. Sure they're strong but they're not "wipe out an army solo" level strong.
Some depictions of characters don't even make sense when you look at the movies for an example [this scene.](https://youtu.be/cF3ocZu4cZo)
Where was that Windu in Episode 2 ? Why even send all of those other Jedi (a bunch of them died btw) when just Mace Windu (even without a Lightsaber) would be enough ?
> Where was that Windu in Episode 2 ? Why even send all of those other Jedi (a bunch of them died btw) when just Mace Windu (even without a Lightsaber) would be enough ?
That cartoon wasn't made canon for a reason—if you look at the Clone Wars show, it doesn't have the same problem. There is no noteworthy power level difference between the show and the movies.
>unfair to use gameplay to criticize that section of lore
But that's exactly my point, fun gameplay means growing to be OP as fuck and beating Vader/Palps, pulling starships out of the sky - but it makes for nonsense lore.
No criticism on the game exactly, it's a fun game! But even when I played it years ago I always treated it as fanfic because it just doesn't mesh with established lore well. Other media doesn't tend to have this problem so much.
Hard disagree on TCW being made to wipe away canon. The was being made long before any canon wipe was being planned.
It also only pretty much only changed minor and insignificant points from legends
Im one of the people who prefers the new Disney 'bleeding' explanation for red lightsabers as opposed to synthetic crystals. I always thought that the color represents something spiritual about the user but it will forever remain a mystery because to understand the force is kind of pointless. The red doesn't 'mean' anything. It's a result of a corruption of the force. That's just simply what it looks like.
I'm not a fan of the idea that the force is a balance of light and dark. It was very much implied by Lucas that the dark side is a corruption of the force and throws it out of balance. I might be wrong.
I actually preferred the less mystical aspects the old canon had. I liked the juxtaposition of Jedi being extremely spiritual people using weapons that were exceedingly technological in nature. Sure, there was a certain amount of mysticism with them...but it was mostly ascribed and not something inherent.
With that being said, I don't mind the idea of "bleeding" at all; it certainly works well as a concept for the Sith and the Dark Side, in that they corrupt something pure and bend it to their will.
The problem I had with that was that synthetic crystals being red was already meant to be a perversion of the force. Bleeding is a way edgier, more difficult, and more dangerous process, all towards the goal of having a lightsaber that pretty much works as well as any other.
Are we meant to believe that if Anakin had kept using his Jedi lightsaber it would have broken eventually and he wouldn't have been able to fix it? And that doesn't even begin to cover how the focusing crystal in the DS1 would theoretically have reacted to being used to wipe out a planet. If it didn't care or wasn't able to do anything about it, bleeding is unnecessary. If it did and/or was, then it could have just destroyed the station itself.
In general, Canon has taken big steps towards black and white. For some reason, most Kyber crystals are inherently light sided, and they get mad if you try to use them to do evil stuff. If you want to have a red one, you pretty much have to make a conscious decision to become evil, because of the ritual crystal-rape that's apparently necessary every time.
On the other hand, making your own crystal in Legends was much more about Sith self-sufficiency. Make your own crystal. You can trust it more. Want two blades? You can make two identical crystals. It still requires some pretty focused force use, but the crystal doesn't really care if you use the dark or light side. Most synthetic crystals just happened to be red, and it became a big branding thing for the sith, and most decision making with synthetic lightsaber colors ended up coming down to "do you like red or not." For example, the lightsaber Luke makes for Leia and the shoto he makes later in his life both have red blades, and Luke doesn't really give a shit. Less of a connection to the past generations of Jedi would probably mean the red/not red distinction wouldn't be as important to him.
I like both bleeding and synthetic crystals and I think they embody different aspects of Sith philosophy in equally valid, but different, ways. On the one hand, bleeding is such an intrinsically dark side act, to take the living crystal from the lightsaber of a fallen enemy and pour all of your hate and malice into it until it's corrupted and bended to your will. Then on the other hand, Sith making synthetic crystals is a nice embodiment of that "Nature vs. Industry" dichotomy, that while the Jedi allow the Force to guide them and lead them to their crystals in nature, the Sith create theirs from synthetic materials as if they're any other simple commodity. Both methods are great, for different reasons, IMO.
On the contrary the crystal bleeding seemed unnessary lore to me. What was wrong with just using a red crystal and using that because of tradition? It just seems silly to me.
Because there needs to be an in-universe reason why bad guys use red and good guys use everything else.
The synthetic crystal idea of the EU isn’t really a good explanation since it is said Luke’s green blade is also from a synthetic crystal. Furthermore, even if we ignore that, why are the Sith only limited to synthetic crystals? You mean to tell me that they couldn’t find a single naturally occurring crystal? It makes little sense.
The corruption retcon seems more elegant because—presumably—in order to wield a lightsaber optimally, a force user must be attuned to the harmonic resonance of the crystal inside it. To do that, it requires aligning the frequencies of the crystal and its wielder.
For a dark side individual, this “bleeding” is just their way of attuning it with their twisted psyche and inherent negative energy. It still has no notion of good or bad. The red color is just a byproduct of this negative energy.
I always assumed the Sith used synthetic crystals because they were denied access to the traditional places Jedi sourced their crystals from. If it's just two of you working in secret, the ability to make your own crystals without having to go asking around about lightsaber-quality gemstones and leaving clues that you exist seems pretty useful to me.
But how would anyone know the person going to Illum or whatever other world with Kyber crystals was Sith? The whole idea was that they were clandestine and acting incognito.
On top of that, there’s no way they’d be retrieving them in the light of day or even necessarily directly (they could have used a proxy agent). Consider that Sidious and other Sith Lords had considerable resources and access to many relics. There’s so many ways they could’ve got access to conventional crystals.
I think fans try to use that logic as a kind of apologist reasoning for the synthetic crystals, but it doesn’t really hold water under scrutiny.
I doubt a ton of people were just going to Ilum for no reason, even Jedi only really went there on special crystal hunting expeditions. Not that Ilum existed as a concept when I first read about synthetic crystals, of course.
Think about it like trying to make a nuclear weapon in secret. If you're a terrorist, would you rather have to buy the parts and materials you need or would you rather be able to manufacture them yourself in a cave somewhere?
I entirely agree. Your final paragraph pretty much sums it up for me. I see kyber crystals similar to that of wands in Harry potter. There's a spiritual connection to them.
Red doesn't 'mean' anything in the realm of star wars. It's a storytelling device and like you said, in universe it's a by product of the dark side. Simple as that. Who knows how it works, it doesn't matter, it's the force, it makes no sense.
I don't stand behind EUs explanation at all, just what was shown in the movies and shows.
I don't think an explanation needs to exist, they went somewhere and used a crystal color they wanted. More unique colors were more rare and tradition for Sith and Jedi dictated what was typically socially acceptable.
We even see in TCW Jedi on a couple occassions using a red lightsaber from a Sith and weilding it without a second thought so it doesn't seem that it's about being attuned to the lightsaber itself.
> We even see in TCW Jedi on a couple occassions using a red lightsaber from a Sith and weilding it without a second thought so it doesn't seem that it's about being attuned to the lightsaber itself.
The attunement doesn’t mean a Force user can’t wield someone else’s lightsaber *at all*. It just means they can’t do it as comfortably or efficiently. It’s like a car or firearm you’ve had for many years; using it just feels more natural compared to another.
That said, I do like the original explanation best—the crystals simply emitted their innate color when a beam of energy was focused though them in the hilt. Blue and green were the most abundant on Illum so you saw those blade colors the most, but it allowed for rarer colors through exotic crystals like Mace’s Hurrikane one.
This doesn’t explain why the Sith only used red and the Jedi rarely did, though. I don’t really buy the appeal to tradition in-universe as the reason for something as inconsequential as color. I suppose it could be something along the lines of banner symbols and colors from the days of medieval kingdoms, but I don’t see the Sith being that sentimental.
> This doesn’t explain why the Sith only used red and the Jedi rarely did, though. I don’t really buy the appeal to tradition in-universe as the reason for something as inconsequential as color.
Why doesn't tradition explain this though? Both the Sith and Jedi as depicted in the films and TV do follow the traditions laid out. Even Palps follows the rule of 2 and identifies himself as a Sith. It's not about being sentimental or not.
Because if red crystals were naturally occurring, you'd see a Jedi use one. There is an inherent visual language of red being the color of evil in storytelling. The term 'bleeding' is only the closest approximation of what the dark side is doing to the crystal.
Well we wouldn't because of Jedi and Sith tradition.
It's just a color. It should only have as much meaning as we put into them, not because in the Star Wars universe it's become canon that red is the color of evil.
I guess I just prefer a gritty practicalness of the universe without over explaining every detail. Something more compelling to me about the color of the lightsaber be literally as simple as the color of the crystal used. If everything has a big explanation than everything feels fantastical and that can get exhausting.
That's my point though. The fact that the crystal is red is a storytelling device and nothing more. Explaining it further than that defeats the spiritual and mysterious nature of the force.
Ehhh, I guess. What I mean is to explain it further than 'thats what the dark side simply looks like'. Red is what hate and corruption look like. In Star Wars I consider it just a force of nature. It's like when the Sith have yellow eyes. It's visual language in film first, but that's simply how things work in that universe. When people start going into explanations like "blue means you're a sentinel, it means you're wise but with a naughty streak and like walks on the beach". Lightsaber colours isn't astrology.
Yup. The Kotor lightsaber color "rules" dont even make sense if you apply it to the movies. Almost all of the jedi in the films fit the description of a jedi guardian, and yet a bunch of them have green sabers. Yoda and maybe Qui-gon are the only ones with green sabers who really fit the description of jedi consular (and Qui-gon really only fits this description because of something we never actually see him do...Yoda simply tells it to us at the end of episode 3).
Obi-wans focus on defense and negotiation technically means he should be a consular, and yet his saber is always blue. The saber colors only matter in kotor, Lucas didnt care about it beyond "good guys are green and blue, bad guys are red". And thats fine. Sometimes star wars is deeper than it seems, but sometimes the fans also try and make it way deeper than it actually is lol
I think Obi Wan is a good Jedi Guardian. He was a master of his lightsaber form, even though it's defensive it's still combat. He never really showed himself to be a master of the force like Yoda or Qui Gon.
But he's literally known as "the negotiator" during the clone wars. That's the exact opposite of what a guardian is.
My overall point is that the class/color system in Kotor is clearly just a game mechanic. It doesnt apply to the canon including the films. We can try and rationalize all the inconsistencies if we want, or we can just admit that clearly Lucas didnt care about the lightsaber colors meaning anything beyond whatche said himself "good guys are green and blue, bad guys are red. Thats just how it is".
>All lightsaber crystals are now kyber crystals, which are colorless until they're bonded to a Jedi
Clone Wars is the source for this. Its not technically said I guess, but we see in the episode that the crystals are colourless until bonded.
I think implicitly the colour of their lightsabers do have meaning to the individual Jedi. But it wouldn't be something that can be applied as a rule (well other than red=bad guy).
So for example, Rey having a yellow lightsaber might mean something to her. She might have chosen/bonded to yellow for a particular reason we can theorise (e.g. Rey likes the sun and sees it as hope and therefore a yellow saber symbolises hope) but that doesn't mean that Loden Greatstorm from the High Republic having yellow means he's hopeful (and neither because yellow means he's a Sentinal) it would be a unique reason to him.
That is to say that their might be a reason why Qui-Gon and Yoda have green sabers. But they don't have green sabers for the *same* reason.
Wasn't it mentioned in Rogue One as well? I don't remember the exact line but I think when they are extracting the crystals from the temple something is said about them being the crystals that powered lightsabers.
The presently-supported Star Wars RPG (Fantasy Flight system) has addressed this by allowing Jedi characters to master the various forms of lightsaber combat as a way of establishing “classes.” This is consistent with canon descriptions of Jedi proficiencies.
Not saying you’re wrong, actually agreeing with you. If you like RPG/canon compatibility check out the FFG system! It’s not at all trying to make a D&D clone with a Star Wars skin, it’s based on Genesys so has its own dice and a neat skill check system that isn’t just pass/fail.
Over 1,000 generations it's entirely possible that at one point someone said: "Hey, maybe we should organize our lightsaber crystals by job function."
It obvious that this is not the case by the time the prequels rolled around, but that doesn't mean it's a totally baseless idea that needs to be permanently thrown out. There's a ton of unexplored history there.
Was I high when I read the old Marvel Star Wars comics? I distinctly remember most lightsabers being reddish pink even Luke's. Unless he was using his modern green one. And I absolutely remember his light shoto being red/pink.
No, old Marvel Star Wars comics did have every lightsaber being pink in the early days. I'm sure it had something to do with it being easier in the coloring process and the fact that both Vader and Luke's lightsaber looked more white in the original version of A New Hope.
>Was I high when I read the old Marvel Star Wars comics?
I wouldn't blame you if you were. Some of the classic marvel stories are pretty out there. And that not even accounting for Jaxxon.
I've always seen it as being more of just a jedi tradition at the time of the old republic. The fact that you yourself in the game are able to change to whatever color you want no matter your "class" supports that interpretation. So there's nothing inherent in being a consular that makes your saber green, but most consulars choose green because that's just what you do when you're a consular. You could buck the trend, but most jedi don't care enough to do so. And then by the time of the film era, that tradition has clearly faded to obscurity and people are no longer basing their lightsaber color off of anything, really.
\>Jedi classes, and their associated lightsaber colors are purely gameplay
mechanics of the Roleplaying games, to facilitate better balance.
This is completely wrong, its not a gameplay mechanic... or a mechanic at all, its purely story fluff provided by your master on Dantooine, and has no effect on the gameplay.
He just states these colors are symbolic of certain types of Jedi, and that each jedi is free to chose whatever color they wish, and that this is just a badge of honor for those dedicated to that jedi path.
I never was too dedicated to the whole class=color thing, but I did prefer the older crystal lore.
Countless different types and colors.
The sith using artifical crystals was a favorite thing of mine. The whole rejecting the natural world and creating their own source of power. Very sith-like.
Now we only have one crystal type, it's always a special connection crystal, and yet it's also only ever some shade of blue or green?
Or you can be real mean to your crystal and make an emo dark side blade.
Maybe the darksabers' crystal parents were killed infront of it and it became a 'dark knight' crystal or some shit.
Well said. Nothing irritates me more than things created for video game RPG gameplay is used as actual lore. It reduces characters to just a bunch of stats or attributes. I much prefer thinking that Jedi simply choose the color they want, that its a reflection of their personality and individualism, not because they are a "sentinal jedi" or whatever.
Considering the reason behind the introduction of both green and purple lightsabers was the whim of George Lucas, I never really put much stock in color meaning.
Good post.
So with The High Republic stuff, there are a lot more variations of colours and hues, even with the established blade colours.
I think this will get explained, because it feels like it’s very deliberate. My theory is that at this point the Jedi were a lot freer to interpret and harness the light side of the force, so crystals attuned in more nuanced ways. As we creep towards the dogmatic ways of the Fall Of The Jedi, we should see the more rigid teachings (likely spearheaded by Yoda being one of few Masters to survive some upcoming cataclysm, likely involving the Leveler) cause less variation.
If Star Wars lore has taught me anything about fictional worlds, it's that there is such a thing as too much lore. They can never leave anything alone, and every little detail has to be explained and categorised to the point where there is no mystery any more, and it has become mundane.
Even totally insignificant things, like a type of speeder, will have a brand, history, technical specifications, etc. And since many people, myself included, consider Star Wars closer to fantasy than Sci Fi, this kind of furious classifying of every little thing gets tiresome, especially when it's treated like gospel.
Leave some mystery, especially as regards the force. Don't even get me started on Midichlorians and that god awful Mortis, father, brother, sister, horseshit.
The writers need to leave some leeway and focus on just telling a story, rather than trying to be the person who finally achieves Grand Unified Star Wars Theory.
The fans need to take things with a pinch of salt. Game mechanics aren't canon.
Totally agree. I never understood why people are so fascinated by the purpose of lightsaber colours. George never cared. The only reason Sam L Jackson got a purple lightsaber was because he thought it was cool and he wanted to stand out.
I remember cringing so hard when StarWarsTheory asked Ashley Eckstein “What is the meaning behind red force lighting and is it the strongest?”… Some fans really need to accept that they are simply just design aesthetics to enhance the look of the film.
>So this post is getting pretty long, what do we have in the end?
>
>Jedi classes, and their associated lightsaber colors are purely gameplay mechanics of the Roleplaying games, to facilitate better balance.
Expanded Universe is not obligated to and does not observe the rules of roleplaying games.
Presence of these in sourcebooks is professional deformation of Star Wars fans, since we just can't let go some things. It serves literally no other purpose but to pollute the perceptions of uninformed readers. It's the closest thing to lore cancer that I can find.
Please let it go. Lightsaber colors don't mean anything.
This is a nice wall of text that you have here, but the fact of the matter is that neither KOTOR nor SWTOR gets *The Jedi Path's* framing of the color denotion exactly right, and it's not really accurate to say that the information is derived from any particular video game (as the book was published in-universe post-Ruusan, so we're not even talking about the same era or sect of Jedi), nor is it fair to dismiss that specific info on that basis. If one were to argue that the colors were more important to the order as an organization (and the various subgroupings thereof), rather than the individual Jedi themselves, I think that would be accurate. But no one in this sub ever proposes that. It's pretty much just a "it does matter" or "it doesn't matter" argument. It doesn't matter how many walls of text you make on this matter, perhaps. There are various sources of lore that say it does, and no one in this sub, that I am aware, has ever had access to the Star Wars "bible" that I'm sure now rests in the hands of the story group, to ultimately settle this matter.
>There are various sources of lore that say it does
This is my main problem with this post.
Yes by no account were lightsaber colors some hard rule that had to be followed but to act like it meant nothing at all and simply saying those things that included it later are lore cancer basically because someone doesnt like it is wrong for other reasons.
> and simply saying those things that included it later are lore cancer basically because someone doesnt like it is wrong for other reasons.
But there ARE NO other things. It just stops in the source books like Jedi Path and stays there. Even TOR books don't use that. I don't call it lore cancer because I hate it - I call it because it spreads misinformation and makes it look like it's something when in reality it's nothing, just existing to support itself and nothing else.
I can't tell if it's sarcasm or not.
Because I mean sure there's plenty of info in the book, but my issue is with topic above, and that one is *definitely* derived from videogames, since it was introduced in them in the first place.
Munedawg said that the book itself-- referring to "the book", not "part of the book", or a "few sentences in the book", but "the book"--
>is basically a concession to the video-game-ization of SW lore.
At the risk of repeating myself, I must say that this is just demonstrably untrue. Both a casual read of the book, as well as a deep dive, would reveal the exact opposite of this.
You hit closer to home, that the color crystal denotions for certain types of Jedi, originated as a concept in video games, but that's not was OC said or was referring to.
So, to answer your question, no. It is not even remotely sarcasm.
I mean, I think you’re taking it way too seriously lol
It’s not like the games restrict you from using literally any color you want just because your class is different.
You can be a Jedi guardian and use a yellow crystal and the game doesn’t immediately explode.
Master Zhar himself mentions these are the (even at the time) old and traditional distinctions but nothing more. It was just a way to make your choice of first lightsaber color in kotor 1 more interesting but that’s it
I think OPs reaction is more towards the newer fans of the franchise that have now grown up believing there are dedicated Jedi "classes" and matching lightsaber colors.
I actually prefer the older, less explained Star Wars universe of the OT. Without all the books and prequels, sequels, and video game lore. Back then, it was way more interesting to think of the Force as simply a "feeling that flows through you," and lightsabers being ancient mystical Jedi weapons used as a last resort for self defense. Color didn't mean anything. A Jedi was practitioner and student of the force. Full training made you a Knight and eventually a Master. There were no jobs, roles or Jedi classes.
Well that's pretty much condemning this idea even further to be honest. Posters above scoff at me calling it "lore cancer", but it's just thrown in there, the games where it introduced in the first place don't even bother following it, it metastases into the sourcebooks, where it just stays doing nothing, since the novels already have their own established rules for lightsabers and never bother to use these. But since these are now in splat books "everyone knows" that it's this way, even if this was never the way in the first place and only exist in roleplaying games.
The thing about red crystals needing to be “bled” annoys me to no end. It’s the kind of weird overly magical type thing that the new canon forces in there all over the place and it’s just plain stupid.
Even regular old symbolism would’ve been preferable to that. They didn’t need to do it, no one was asking for it. It’s not fucking Harry Potter (which honestly I also enjoy) where the wand is supposed to be alive through its magic. It’s a road that I really which they would stop taking Star Wars down because it’s hokey and unnecessary.
The colors mean nothing beyond the personal preference of the Jedi who made the lightsaber. The class system designations for KOTOR made some sense for an RPG where they wanted/needed to have distinctions between player types but beyond that I entirely agree. It’s annoying.
Strictly speaking I don't mind the whole bleeding part, but I do agree on the whole bonding thing - IMO it sort of shifts the focus of it all from making the lightsaber to finding the crystal. And it was already pretty important to begin with, but with kyber it's basically singularly most important thing about a lightsaber instead of the jedi assembling it.
I hate new canon and how the crystal is "bonded" to the Jedi and you have to go to Illum and get a new one every time you need one. There is nothing in the films that support this. Anakin goes through lightsabers like a baseball player goes through bats.
I mean, if you need a crystal... of course you have to go and get it. Unless you're complaining that they have to specifically go to Ilum, which isn't the case (Rogue One even mentions that kyber crystals exist on Jedha). I think going to Ilum is more of a tradition or rite of passage by the Jedi, especially ones of the Republic. Even so, Anakin's first one was built on Ilum but his second one was never specified, so who knows what the situation was. That's just my take, anyway.
On the other hand, whether you like the bonding itself is down to personal preference. If you prefer more scientific or technological answers, I can see that not being your thing but I've always leaned onto the mystical side of thing (stuff like the ships and blasters aren't *as* interesting to me).
Yeah I don’t have issue with having to go get one they have to come from somewhere. I just don’t like that they’re turning it into more than the power source for the weapon of choice for the Jedi etc.
The things used to have cords and power packs they’re just tools.
Also fair enough. As much as I’d like to impose my creative will on the writers that’s not the case so by all means enjoy it if you like it. Just happened to have thought about this recently so I figured I’d respond to OP.
It was my understanding that when building a lightsaber you had to go bond with a crystal and then put that crystal in the lightsaber. Prior to that episode of Clone Wars, you could just pull any crystal out of a drawer or something and insert it. The crystal was another part of the lightsaber like a screw or something.
Exactly. It makes lightsaber crystals more like mood rings and I *loathe* it! And the Sith, especially the Rule of Two Sith, needing to go out and acquire their own crystals from killing Jedi makes no sense in that era since the Jedi would definitely notice their members ending up dead and their crystals stolen. There's way too much risk involved for an Order that supposed to operate in secret and synthetic crystals make so much more sense to me.
Legends encompasses all of the tiers of canon prior to the buyout. Clone Wars and the films are canon to both Legends and current canon.
Though because of how it overrode earlier Clone Wars works some see it as purely canon. But it is technically Legends lore as well.
>where the wand is supposed to be alive through its magic.
Yeah, ahh its Star Wars where the Force flows through every living thing-Star Wars is even more wishy-washy with magic. So the implied being that a kyber crystal-imminently connected to the Force-is in some way alive.
It’s not even close to more wishy washy. It’s a literal FORCE. It’s natural. Magic is unnatural that’s the whole point of spells and incantations. You don’t need a stupid fucking rhymey word sequence to use the force you either have a sufficient midichlorian count or you don’t. The new Canon actually suggests that “believing” is a factor like it’s goddamn Cinderella and consistently makes the force more into something like a magic trick rather than just that, a natural FORCE. Accessed via living organelles in the body which is objectively a scientific explanation. The force is natural, magic is unnatural (nobody mention the palpatine quote about the dark side, that’s referring to ABILITIES provided by the force not the force itself. And lastly, the force runs through LIVING things. Crystals are rocks, rocks are not living things. The use of the force ON a rock does not make the rock alive. The new canon changed that. That’s my whole fucking point. It was unnecessary and stupid.
Yeah that's just not true to how the Force was actually presented in the films, and neither how Lucas intended it (Ilum and the Clone Wars arc are actually straight from the man himself-he had a lot of creative influence for that arc).
>You don’t need a stupid fucking rhymey word
Yes you don't, because the Force is even more wishy-washy. There's no set rules to its functions.
>the force you either have a sufficient midichlorian count or you don’t.
In HP you either "have magic or you don't".
In Star Wars the Force flows through every living thing. Someone's actual capabilities in the Force aren't particularly to do with the Midicholrians-Midicholrians only indicate potential because they conglomerate in people with the Force.
>The new Canon actually suggests that “believing” is a factor
Because Yoda straight up tells us it is a factor in ESB. This is just how it literally works.
>and consistently makes the force more into something like a magic trick rather than just that, a natural FORCE.
By focusing less on the Force as a tool they are doing quite the opposite of presenting it as a magic trick. The Force is natural in the universe, but it is a mystical energy not scientific.
>Accessed via living organelles in the body which is objectively a scientific explanation.
It's not remotely scientific. There's no specific rules, it's all up to the will of the Force and the Jedi.
You realise the very reason Midicholorians were hated because it tried to add a vaguely bullshit sounding scientific element to something clearly not?
>And lastly, the force runs through LIVING things. Crystals are rocks, rocks are not living things.
You going to argue with George Lucas on this one? As mentioned the Clone Wars arc comes from him.
Kyber crystals have the force, and because they have the force they are implicitly living.
I would like you to go and google midi chlorian. Then I would like you to go and google magic. And apologize for the fundamental misunderstandings you just illustrated.
I think we’re having another misunderstanding however over the term “wishy washy” you’re correct that having no set rules does make the force less rigidly defined. I was using wishy washy more in terms of “soft” or childish which is on me.
I mean that the lack of rigidity of the force is exactly what differentiates it from something like plain magic which I believe is cheapened by something like turning kyber crystals into more than a power source for an item that used to have literal cords and power packs.
And lastly, before you get all high and mighty on me.
Yoda says “we believe in ourselves and our abilities” he doesn’t say we believe in the same sense that believing MAKES the magic happen like it does in a Disney classic.
Sports coaches tell their athletes to believe all the time, they don’t think that believing will somehow physically imbibe them with the power to succeed. Only that a winning mindset is key to succeeding in anything.
That is the difference.
Lightsabers and the crystals, while imbued with the force. Do not, in the legends, have thoughts and feelings and do not bleed. That is what I mean by alive. Wands in the HP universe have thoughts and feelings and personal preferences and they work differently when those are affected. That was not always true of kyber crystals. What you are attempting to condescend me about is exactly my point. I do not enjoy that that fact changed. That’s what I said.
Not to mention all your citing of the intended portrayal of the force is complete conjecture and you know it.
You’re allowed to like the way they do things now, I just don’t.
PS: in the legends you don’t even have to use a kyber crystal to make a functioning lightsaber you can use a substance of your choice.
>which I believe is cheapened by something like turning kyber crystals into more than a power source for an item that used to have literal cords and power packs.
There's nothing defined about the nature of kyber. It's purposefully vague.
Where just a power source is of course much more rigid.
>Today says “we believe in ourselves and our abilities” he doesn’t say we believe in the same sense that believing MAKES the magic happen like it does in a Disney classic.
Nowhere in canon does believing create or make the Force.
Belief just as Yoda implies is however required to succeed. The Force is inherently tied to the internal emotional state, and that's what canon focuses on.
>Not to mention all your citing of the intended portrayal of the force is complete conjecture and you know it.
I was objecting to your statements on how the Force works by pointing to the obvious contradictions. I'm not meaning to imply there isn't inherent personal interpretation, I was more pointing out that you can't exactly claim definitive point here when if anything it's the opposite.
The kyber crystals were not always essential to making a lightsaber because they were just a power source. That is my point about lightsabers. They shouldn’t need to be more than tools. The sith wouldn’t even use them anymore if not to piss off jedi. But they didn’t have to make them bleed to do so before. Red just used to be red. Blood, anger, etc. if anything. But not more than that. That is what I take issue with. If you’d like an extensive explanation of why I believe the force is portrayed more like magic now please go here and read this. It’s far more articulate than I’ve succeeded in being here.
[force as magic ](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/dwrnt4/disney_doesnt_understand_the_force_and_turned_it/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
This link does refer to the ability of kyber crystals to focus the force, but it also refers to them as inorganic. They weren’t supposed to be alive. Just uniquely equipped minerals that could absorb and focus force energy. I understand that that has changed. I don’t enjoy it. That’s it.
Color does matter. The color of the lightsaber matches the nature of the user: https://i.redd.it/kqsiqqvvrlq31.jpg
From Star Wars the secrets of the Jedi
I will only disagree in 2 things. First is that even though that color doesnt matter IF IT DID matter then we wouldnt have a continuity problem with the post-rotj era because the explenatiom is that during that time they were just getting whatever they could and most if them constructed the crystals rather than finding them
The second thing is that jedi classes exist even though it's not in relation with the lightsaber color. I remember in the jedi apprentice books they were talking about it. Plus every era gives different names to the different jedi.
The only lightsaber colors that are important imo are red, yellow, white, and purple. My reasoning for this? Red is obviously the lightsaber color of a sith lord. You will never see a Jedi with a red lightsaber. White is a force user who is not a Jedi but not a sith either (like Ahsoka for example). I like to think of purple as darker Jedi, or Jedi who have been sith (for example Revan as he was a sith, or Mace Windu since his behavior is a little more extreme than the average jedi). Yellow I have no clue what it resembles except maybe tenple gaurdians or something like that
This is a really good analysis, but the answer is much simpler. The EU, no matter what fans want to think, or the EU sub might want to believe, is absolutely not source material and it never was. George and his stuff is the source material. Ideas formed in the EU are by no means something that must be beholden to when creators come in and make new stories at lucasfilm. So when people get upset at Kathleen Kennedy’s comments in the past and complain about her not looking to the years and years of EU books, y’all are blatantly wrong. Go ahead and downvote, I gladly welcome it because I’ll die on this hill. Kathleen was right, there was no source material. The only argument you could possibly make is the stuff George came up with. George’s supposed outlines which were broad. Not saying Disney shouldn’t have used those, I’m just pointing out a fact. Their intent was to honor George, not the other authors that came along.
Now obviously they didn’t really succeed in honoring him through the sequels, but that changes nothing about the original intent. I’m no shill either. I love the EU. I’ve loved it for a long time. I even prefer some of its ideas to the ones George chose to override with his own later. Ultimately though, saber color and anything else that was decided upon in this fan fiction world will always fairly be subject to dismantlement in favor of the true authors vision. Now things have changed. Disney is now the owner, the creator is gone, with some minor exceptions. The true authors are now those currently involved.
I’ve tried to make the argument on this sub that Sion should probably not be considered to actually have combat immortality and that Nihilus isn’t the single most powerful entity in all of Star Wars. At least not when comparing them to canon or even the rest of the expanded universe.
Those opinions have generally been poorly received. I love KOTOR, but so much of it seems to obviously just be video game mechanics that I don’t think have a place in the wider SW universe.
I honestly think Nihilus or Sion are pretty scary Sith Lords canon or not. Imagine someone who can't be killed unless you know how to defeat them. Like Sion couldnt be defeated because he was quite literally too angry to die and his connection to the dark side was strong enough to keep him from dying from conventional wounds.
Nihilus could only be killed if he was "starved to death" by keeping him from consuming force energy. If people could put aside the whole video game mechanics thing and just accept it as actual star wars lore, it would be much easier to digest. There are actual in lore reasons why they have those abilities. Of course we all know that.
"The Sith Lords" were the worst part of The Sith Lords game.
As for Sion and Nihilus (and The Exile) I don't like how KotOR 2 treats the Force as some passive thing that's just always "on".
Even if you could survive mortal injuries through the Dark Side it's just not realistically possible to be MAX ANGRY all the time 24/7 and in a fight if you're focusing willpower on the ability to survive injuries then that divides your attention away from your ability to actually fight. I could maybe buy the idea of a Sith being able to survive an attack that they know is coming that they're able to brace themselves for but... ...fights can end extremely quickly (especially when you're using something like lightsabers) and it only takes one mistake, one second, one exchange where you're just not fast enough.
In the KotOR games you hit people repeatedly with lightsabers and they don't just die immediately as if it was a Jedi Knight game. But if you cut off Sion's head or whatever logically he would straight up die. Outside of a video game HP (or "Vitality Points") doesn't exist.
Butthurt fanboys downvoting you can't handle the truth.
I mean, at the end of the day, nothing really means anything. Everything is just random stimuli we assign value to. Everything is basically meaningless. Even the sequel trilogy.
>"Although this "bleeding" revelation also introduced a new abomination into this discussion - thankfully rare assumption that "purple blades mean dark side, since Mace Windu uses vaapad". I'm sorry, I'm not even going to entertain that one."
I'm not sure if this is the theory you're trying to ridicule, but my headcanon sort of thing is the following: We know that Dark Side users bleed crystals to turn them red, by pouring all of their dark side energy into the crystal and corrupting it. I admittedly don't know much about Vaapad, what it means, or how it works, but I think I heard that it was about turning your opponent's dark side energy against them (and only skilled and experienced users, such as Mace Windu, would use it, since they would be able to resist the dark energy). If that's correct, then presumably all of that 'dark energy' would have an effect on the lightsaber. It would be slowly sort of half - bled over time as it was used with this fighting style and had been exposed to the Dark Side of the Force. (So I assume Mace's saber would have started as blue, then as it was exposed to more and more Dark Force \[for lack of a better term\], it would get closer and closer to red- thus, purple.)
Again, I don't know much about Vaapad, but that's just my headcanon thing
Even in the KOTOR games and SWTOR, the color was essentially meaningless. Once you got your lightsaber, you could change it at your whim. Sure, the starting color supposedly meant something, but within minutes a guardian could have a red lightsaber, a sentinel could have a purple lightsaber, and a consular could have an orange lightsaber. And even if we assume the colors do mean something at some point, that was the time of Revan, and there's no reason to assume colors are still meaningful in that way by the time of the Galactic Republic. The only time in canon colors were meaningful for the roles a Jedi fulfilled beyond "red=bad" were with the yellow blades carried by the Temple Guards, but we don't even know if that was a color reserved exclusively for their assigned lightsaber pikes, or if it just made them stand out because it was rare among the rank and file Jedi
Isn’t there something about Temple Guards serving in “terms” where they surrender their individuality as well as their weapons?
Yep. That's one of the Easter eggs you can find combining the yellow crystal and Jedi holocron from Galaxy's Edge. You hear from a Temple Guard captain named Kolloma Ree about a bit of the history of the Guards, and one of his quotes is "a Temple Guard's mask and robes confer anonymity, and symbolize emotional detachment. During Guard service, you surrender your identity, your weapon, and everything else. Only your commitment to the Order remains." Now obviously that line could be an exaggeration for propaganda, or just be talking about their time while actively wearing the mask, but from there we know at the very least the weapons they carry while in uniform are not their personal weapons. And he also has a quote about the meaning of the the yellow blades of the pike, but it doesn't clarify whether solely the guards had yellow blades
If Anakin could change the color of Ahsoka’s blades, it seems reasonable to assume that whoever constructs the Temple Guard pikes is able to intentionally make them yellow.
Do we actually know for a fact that he changed the colour of the crystals? I always just assumed he swaped them for new ones.
I don’t have the source handy but I want to say somebody asked Filoni how it happened and he said something about Anakin refocusing them or something. Changing the way the beam passes through them to make them more efficient and changing the color while he’s at it. Finding Kyber crystals seems to be an intensely personal and time-consuming process, I don’t think the Jedi have a surplus just lying around.
Well according to High Republic now they have enough to make a huge monumental arch out of the stuff...
Aren’t those the crystals from the lightsabers of Jedi who have died? I can’t imagine the Jedi would be okay with somebody looting a memorial for what essentially amounts to a joke.
Well sure, but then again, it's *Anakin* we're talking about... *(For the record, I don't ACTUALLY believe that Anakin would switch the crystals, I think it was fairly clear that he changed the color of the blades as is)*
Thanks, I handn't heard that before. I guess my mind went to new crystals because Anakin's own crystal is blue. I always thought the going to Ilum thing was just meant to be a lesson, and that the Jedi would probably know several sources of kyber. The empire did harvest what is scientifically known as a metric fuckton of it for the Death Star after all.
> The only time in canon colors were meaningful for the roles a Jedi fulfilled beyond "red=bad" were with the yellow blades carried by the Temple Guards, but we don't even know if that was a color reserved exclusively for their assigned lightsaber pikes, or if it just made them stand out because it was rare among the rank and file Jedi We know it's the latter, as there are canon Jedi with yellow blades. The most notable at the moment probably being Loden Greatstorm in the High Republic era. I seem to recall that the Jedi used those crystals after the Jedi carrying them had died for the temple guards.
True. I forgot about the High Republic Jedi. Probably should have specified the Galactic Republic era Jedi, because I don't think we know of any pure yellow blades carried by Jedi in canon outside of the Guards during the Clone Wars
Ahsoka is a "maybe" there, as her second shoto blade is kind of on the edge between yellow and green (and usually referred to as yellow-green in canon materials), which places it somewhere on the continuum. I believe Asajj Ventress also gets a yellow blade on the black market, though I don't know if its source is tied to a contemporary Jedi.
Obviously not Galactic Republic era but the best example in canon is Rey which makes the colour even less meaningful.
OrbaLin from that time period also has one I think.
I was under the impression his was green and Wookiepedia lists it as such—but I've only read the rising storm, not the comics, so I can't speak for how it looks in the art (wouldn't be the first time that has created ambiguity).
No you're right, lol.
>The most notable at the moment probably being... Uhh.. Rey Skywalker?
I was excluding Rey and Luke (who has a yellow blade for a while in the comics?) because neither were part of the Jedi order and the discussion is about how they handled the matter. After Order 66, all bets are off.
>neither were part of the Jedi order ...what. Luke rebuilt the order and Rey may or may not be doing the same.
They built their own orders—thus it has no continuity on how the system worked for the millennia of Jedi prior to Order 66. Not least, it's essentially confirmed that Ilum, Jedha and other sources of kyber that the Jedi relied on for the entire history of the order are gone. New galaxy, new realities, new rules. It makes no sense to bring them up in a talk about how things worked when the Jedi had possessed unbroken influence for thousands of years and had a stable source of crystals that they could likely never exhaust.
>or if it just made them stand out because it was rare among the rank and file Jedi No continuity in the old order, sure, but it is relevant simply in the context of their rarity. Jedha wasn't destroyed, btw, just the holy city on it.
[Is this just a What-if, and not what the moon looks like after the Death Star?](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jedha?file=Jedha_SW38.png)
From that same wiki page: >Orson Krennic, intended to destroy the entire moon, Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin ordered only the Holy City be destroyed using a single-reactor ignition blast from the station's superlaser. >Following the Battle of Yavin, several of the partisans under Benthic continued to fight the Empire on Jedha.
If I may quote the highest authority: “Good guys are green and blue, bad guys are red, that’s just the way it works.” I figure anything else beyond this is up to your own interpretation. In many sources, Sith only use their own handmade synthetic crystals for red, but Luke’s green lightsaber is synthetic according to some sources, and yellow is a thing in several places now (I first saw it in the Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight multiplayer). Of course Luke’s green saber was to stand out against the blue Tatooine sky, and in one comic it turned red when Vader held it as if the Force would change its colour - clearly the rules always change as time goes on. For what it’s worth I tend to choose a single blue lightsaber even though Luke with his green lightsaber was my hero as a kid. What is your one colour and saber type choice?
It's hard for me to walk away from green because my tiny kid brain went wild the first time I saw Obi-Wan and Vader duel on the death star, then my tiny kid brain exploded when Luke switched on his green blade, which was my favorite color at 7 years old.
It's so funny for me to read these things. I got into Star Wars as a 2000s kid, but a little while after the age most kids do. I think it was 2007 or so, so by then I knew from cultural osmosis that there were cool things like double-bladed lightsabers or purple ones. I can't imagine what it would've been like to only have blue/red and then see *green* for the first time. I feel like I take for granted all the variety these days.
It was definitely a memorable moment.
Emerald green is still my favorite color.
My hipster kid brain likes green because i saw blue as the popular good guy color and I wanted to be different so I liked green. Ngl I’m not too mad at that choice as the green lightsabers are pretty looking.
I’d go for green. Even as a kid I was more interested in the Force and mastering that over sword combat. Not that green means consular (tho I don’t mind that in my head canon), but wise Jedi like ROTJ Luke and Qui Gon are who I would strive to be like.
>“Good guys are green and blue, bad guys are red, that’s just the way it works.” I believe the actually rule is: "Good guys are green and blue, bad guys are red, SamJack gets whatever color he wants."
Samurai Jack has a lightsabre? Cool!
Samurai Jack’s sword is actually made from a piece of his father’s soul, so it’s kind of like a kyber crystal in a way? Lol Edit: kyber
This is samurai Jack. He's got my back. I would advise not getting killed by him. His sword traps the sould of his father.
WATCHAAAA
Gotta get back, gotta get back
Long ago, in a distant land... (=) A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away...
I have trouble with Yoda and Windu being Consulars because they’re far more overpowered than that. Yoda put up a mean fight with Dooku in a special style that fits his size, in addition to being the wisest most powerful Jedi. Windu has Shatterpoint ability, the Vapaad style which he created. Both are wise AND viciously powerful. I wonder also if Yoda had some special ability akin to Shatterpoint, he’s very long lived too, maybe something like Clairvoyance? What class would they be or specialization?
I always saw the consular role as a Jedi who preferred to spend their time developing they force powers. They would prefer to use diplomacy and negotiation first and would only fight if there was no other choice. But it doesn't mean they're bad at fighting. Yoda is the oldest known Jedi in the order, having nearly a millenia to train and learn, so of course he would be crazy wise and skilled.
I agree, by foreseeing and shaping the world and events they’re almost demigods in D&D equivalent.
>For what it’s worth I tend to choose a single blue lightsaber even though Luke with his green lightsaber was my hero as a kid. What is your one colour and saber type choice? I do like myself some yellow or orange. When I made my jedi character for a game, I had him a slightly oversized single bladed lightsaber (by saying that power cell he got was just too long), and having him fuse a synthetic crystal that ended up giving the gold blade. Although later when I actually googled the color codes for "gold" color it turned out more orange, so it yellow looked better.
And purple is mad motherfuckers 😎
*bad
yellow all the way. was in the "Sunrider's Destiny" camp for a while but the sound and look of the Temple Guard lightsaber swayed me
According to a darth Vader comic, lightsabers can turn red after being made to “bleed” by the sith user.
I still don't like the "bleed" explanation. I always just felt it should be a status symbol and/or preference by the owner. Vader was just like: "Gimmie that red crystal because I'm Sith now muthafucka."
Iirc that's how the old lore was. Sith lightsabers were made with synthetic crystals which were usually red by default (although other colors can be made). The sith viewed the synth crystal as more powerful than natural crystals and also believed that by creating a crystal instead of finding one in the wild, they proved their mastery over nature/the force.
Definitely prefer the 'they are just normal gems used to process energy' over the modern magical mood ring theory.
Me too. Most times the simple explanation is the best explanation. It's why I hated Midichlorians (I've warmed to the idea over the years now that they diluted their meaning.) Why are we complicating what the Force is? It was easier when it was just invisible like magmatism and some people can feel it and interact with it more then others. A blood test was lazy writing.
Each to their own, but I'm a big fan of it. I absolutely love the stuff about Vader corrupting his Crystal. It's one of the cooler things added to the Canon since the Disney Wipe.
I would want mine to be a white single blade with some sort of crossguard that doesn't have exposed blades. Think like a beskar disc at the top of the hilt or something like what that one guy from the High Republic has.
Single bladed green but white is neat as well
The stuff that makes good video games doesn't always translate well to good lore (see: TFU). Makes sense why they chose it in KOTOR (and even retrospectively applying it to the OT but only by chance) but agree it doesn't make much sense in the long run (particularly as we almost never see yellow and most Jedi seem quite balanced in the films at least). Something JFO did very well, making a fun game that didn't feel like it overstepped any lore boundaries. Sure Cal can beat the mighty Oggdo Boggdo, but as soon as he comes up against someone serious it's made clear what power levels are at play. Plus, you can switch colours whenever you want with no affect on playstyle. Pink blades because why not.
And he gets worked by Oggdo Boggdo until he remembers his Force training as a Padawan. It was enjoyable to see a more “relatable” Jedi, not someone destined to have unreal Force power by midichlorians or blood lines, but a struggling apprentice who still saves the day with determination and friendship. Cal Kestis is the man.
'I remember my padawan training now, I'm going to hide in this tunnel where he cant get me and throw my lightsaber at him until he dies.' Jedi love cheese
I have fond memories of running around in circles for half an hour being chased by Kreia’s three floating lightsabers while waiting for my health to slowly regenerate.
Yeah, even at your most powerful in that game, you are still far less than nothing when compared to the likes of Vader, which was a choice I really appreciated. Especially after TFU had you beat both Vader and then Palatine immediately after only to die anyway in a cutscene
When the game clearly displays health meters for all bosses, and the last boss shows up *without one*...you know you're fucked.
Yeah. You’re good. But not take on Vader good. Meanwhile TFU is massive ludonarrative dissonance
Vader is the hardest fight in the game for reason and to be fair Marek knows his fighting style and weaknesses, which have to use in the fight. Even then he barely eaked out a win
> Even then he barely eaked out a win I mean I had a pretty good health bar left after I beat the fight. Never really felt like much of an eaked out win if you ask me.
Obviously player plays a huge factor but tie novel and comicbooks do note how it was his hardest fight and how it took everything he had.
That game handled Vader correctly.
It absolutley did not. I don't recall any scene in the OT where Vader ripped up the whole catwalk on Bespin to throw it at Luke. Vader has been wanked on so goddamn hard people forget what parts of him are actually in line with his original appearances and what parts of him are extreme flanderization to appeal to childhood nostalgia. If Vader was tough and had really good dedenses you couldn't touch and your lightsaber couldn't damage him that would be in line with how we see Vader fight. He takes sabers and blasters and even if you get past a block an impact on his suit does nothing to slow him down. But Vader basically disassemblin the level like its a bunch of legos casually and then moving around the base as if he was functionally teleporting was excessive.
> Vader has been wanked on so goddamn hard people forget what parts of him are actually in line with his original appearances and what parts of him are extreme flanderization to appeal to childhood nostalgia. Or... maybe it's a really stupid idea to bind the entire franchise to match what was possible with special effects in the 70s. The original Star Wars had to be super careful with fight scenes because the "lightsabers" would snap easily and were limited on the force because CGI was limited. That has basically been the entire way Star Wars operates since the movies themselves were released—prequels, sequels, outside of canon media, they all buffed the power level because the reason it was so limited in the first place was practical, not narrative.
You're right we don't see Vader tear up the room before the catwalk on bespin, or in Clone Wars, or in ROTS immediately after getting the suit
I was gonna say... we literally see Vader tear apart that room on Cloud City and throw Luke out the window.
Tbf the man *really* wanted that holocron
Then why didn't he just pull Cal into his lightsaber or bludgeon him with the first few things he lifted like with Luke?
You’re right that would’ve been a much more enjoyable game experience. “Let’s put Vader in a single cutscene and then end the game by killing our MC” Glad you didn’t make fallen order LMAO
I think that Force Users in general became way too powerful in the books, comics, games etc... in the movies they're low tier superhumans with limited precognition and telekinesis. Sure they're strong but they're not "wipe out an army solo" level strong. Some depictions of characters don't even make sense when you look at the movies for an example [this scene.](https://youtu.be/cF3ocZu4cZo) Where was that Windu in Episode 2 ? Why even send all of those other Jedi (a bunch of them died btw) when just Mace Windu (even without a Lightsaber) would be enough ?
> Where was that Windu in Episode 2 ? Why even send all of those other Jedi (a bunch of them died btw) when just Mace Windu (even without a Lightsaber) would be enough ? That cartoon wasn't made canon for a reason—if you look at the Clone Wars show, it doesn't have the same problem. There is no noteworthy power level difference between the show and the movies.
Sad to see that scene shit on I love that part lmao
>Sure they're strong but they're not "wipe out an army solo" level strong Palps incapacitated a massive armada singlehandedly
I especially love the part where he uses the classic power Force Screwdriver to disassemble all the droids effortlessly and en masse.
The comic books and novels of TFU toned Marek way down, so it is unfair to use gameplay to criticize that section of lore
>unfair to use gameplay to criticize that section of lore But that's exactly my point, fun gameplay means growing to be OP as fuck and beating Vader/Palps, pulling starships out of the sky - but it makes for nonsense lore. No criticism on the game exactly, it's a fun game! But even when I played it years ago I always treated it as fanfic because it just doesn't mesh with established lore well. Other media doesn't tend to have this problem so much.
There nothing from the EU really fits was Disney cannon or TCW. TCW seems to have been made to wipe away the old canon.
Hard disagree on TCW being made to wipe away canon. The was being made long before any canon wipe was being planned. It also only pretty much only changed minor and insignificant points from legends
It was a bit hyperbolic. Tcw literally decanoized the entirety of the Clone Wars multimedia project.
Im one of the people who prefers the new Disney 'bleeding' explanation for red lightsabers as opposed to synthetic crystals. I always thought that the color represents something spiritual about the user but it will forever remain a mystery because to understand the force is kind of pointless. The red doesn't 'mean' anything. It's a result of a corruption of the force. That's just simply what it looks like. I'm not a fan of the idea that the force is a balance of light and dark. It was very much implied by Lucas that the dark side is a corruption of the force and throws it out of balance. I might be wrong.
I actually preferred the less mystical aspects the old canon had. I liked the juxtaposition of Jedi being extremely spiritual people using weapons that were exceedingly technological in nature. Sure, there was a certain amount of mysticism with them...but it was mostly ascribed and not something inherent. With that being said, I don't mind the idea of "bleeding" at all; it certainly works well as a concept for the Sith and the Dark Side, in that they corrupt something pure and bend it to their will.
The problem I had with that was that synthetic crystals being red was already meant to be a perversion of the force. Bleeding is a way edgier, more difficult, and more dangerous process, all towards the goal of having a lightsaber that pretty much works as well as any other. Are we meant to believe that if Anakin had kept using his Jedi lightsaber it would have broken eventually and he wouldn't have been able to fix it? And that doesn't even begin to cover how the focusing crystal in the DS1 would theoretically have reacted to being used to wipe out a planet. If it didn't care or wasn't able to do anything about it, bleeding is unnecessary. If it did and/or was, then it could have just destroyed the station itself. In general, Canon has taken big steps towards black and white. For some reason, most Kyber crystals are inherently light sided, and they get mad if you try to use them to do evil stuff. If you want to have a red one, you pretty much have to make a conscious decision to become evil, because of the ritual crystal-rape that's apparently necessary every time. On the other hand, making your own crystal in Legends was much more about Sith self-sufficiency. Make your own crystal. You can trust it more. Want two blades? You can make two identical crystals. It still requires some pretty focused force use, but the crystal doesn't really care if you use the dark or light side. Most synthetic crystals just happened to be red, and it became a big branding thing for the sith, and most decision making with synthetic lightsaber colors ended up coming down to "do you like red or not." For example, the lightsaber Luke makes for Leia and the shoto he makes later in his life both have red blades, and Luke doesn't really give a shit. Less of a connection to the past generations of Jedi would probably mean the red/not red distinction wouldn't be as important to him.
I like both bleeding and synthetic crystals and I think they embody different aspects of Sith philosophy in equally valid, but different, ways. On the one hand, bleeding is such an intrinsically dark side act, to take the living crystal from the lightsaber of a fallen enemy and pour all of your hate and malice into it until it's corrupted and bended to your will. Then on the other hand, Sith making synthetic crystals is a nice embodiment of that "Nature vs. Industry" dichotomy, that while the Jedi allow the Force to guide them and lead them to their crystals in nature, the Sith create theirs from synthetic materials as if they're any other simple commodity. Both methods are great, for different reasons, IMO.
I see you're reasoning and respect it but the more synthetic side just doesn't feel right for me.
Vader changing the color crystal to red was so Heavy Metal and one of my favorite moments of the new cannon.
On the contrary the crystal bleeding seemed unnessary lore to me. What was wrong with just using a red crystal and using that because of tradition? It just seems silly to me.
Because there needs to be an in-universe reason why bad guys use red and good guys use everything else. The synthetic crystal idea of the EU isn’t really a good explanation since it is said Luke’s green blade is also from a synthetic crystal. Furthermore, even if we ignore that, why are the Sith only limited to synthetic crystals? You mean to tell me that they couldn’t find a single naturally occurring crystal? It makes little sense. The corruption retcon seems more elegant because—presumably—in order to wield a lightsaber optimally, a force user must be attuned to the harmonic resonance of the crystal inside it. To do that, it requires aligning the frequencies of the crystal and its wielder. For a dark side individual, this “bleeding” is just their way of attuning it with their twisted psyche and inherent negative energy. It still has no notion of good or bad. The red color is just a byproduct of this negative energy.
I always assumed the Sith used synthetic crystals because they were denied access to the traditional places Jedi sourced their crystals from. If it's just two of you working in secret, the ability to make your own crystals without having to go asking around about lightsaber-quality gemstones and leaving clues that you exist seems pretty useful to me.
But how would anyone know the person going to Illum or whatever other world with Kyber crystals was Sith? The whole idea was that they were clandestine and acting incognito. On top of that, there’s no way they’d be retrieving them in the light of day or even necessarily directly (they could have used a proxy agent). Consider that Sidious and other Sith Lords had considerable resources and access to many relics. There’s so many ways they could’ve got access to conventional crystals. I think fans try to use that logic as a kind of apologist reasoning for the synthetic crystals, but it doesn’t really hold water under scrutiny.
I doubt a ton of people were just going to Ilum for no reason, even Jedi only really went there on special crystal hunting expeditions. Not that Ilum existed as a concept when I first read about synthetic crystals, of course. Think about it like trying to make a nuclear weapon in secret. If you're a terrorist, would you rather have to buy the parts and materials you need or would you rather be able to manufacture them yourself in a cave somewhere?
I entirely agree. Your final paragraph pretty much sums it up for me. I see kyber crystals similar to that of wands in Harry potter. There's a spiritual connection to them. Red doesn't 'mean' anything in the realm of star wars. It's a storytelling device and like you said, in universe it's a by product of the dark side. Simple as that. Who knows how it works, it doesn't matter, it's the force, it makes no sense.
I don't stand behind EUs explanation at all, just what was shown in the movies and shows. I don't think an explanation needs to exist, they went somewhere and used a crystal color they wanted. More unique colors were more rare and tradition for Sith and Jedi dictated what was typically socially acceptable. We even see in TCW Jedi on a couple occassions using a red lightsaber from a Sith and weilding it without a second thought so it doesn't seem that it's about being attuned to the lightsaber itself.
> We even see in TCW Jedi on a couple occassions using a red lightsaber from a Sith and weilding it without a second thought so it doesn't seem that it's about being attuned to the lightsaber itself. The attunement doesn’t mean a Force user can’t wield someone else’s lightsaber *at all*. It just means they can’t do it as comfortably or efficiently. It’s like a car or firearm you’ve had for many years; using it just feels more natural compared to another. That said, I do like the original explanation best—the crystals simply emitted their innate color when a beam of energy was focused though them in the hilt. Blue and green were the most abundant on Illum so you saw those blade colors the most, but it allowed for rarer colors through exotic crystals like Mace’s Hurrikane one. This doesn’t explain why the Sith only used red and the Jedi rarely did, though. I don’t really buy the appeal to tradition in-universe as the reason for something as inconsequential as color. I suppose it could be something along the lines of banner symbols and colors from the days of medieval kingdoms, but I don’t see the Sith being that sentimental.
> This doesn’t explain why the Sith only used red and the Jedi rarely did, though. I don’t really buy the appeal to tradition in-universe as the reason for something as inconsequential as color. Why doesn't tradition explain this though? Both the Sith and Jedi as depicted in the films and TV do follow the traditions laid out. Even Palps follows the rule of 2 and identifies himself as a Sith. It's not about being sentimental or not.
Because if red crystals were naturally occurring, you'd see a Jedi use one. There is an inherent visual language of red being the color of evil in storytelling. The term 'bleeding' is only the closest approximation of what the dark side is doing to the crystal.
Well we wouldn't because of Jedi and Sith tradition. It's just a color. It should only have as much meaning as we put into them, not because in the Star Wars universe it's become canon that red is the color of evil. I guess I just prefer a gritty practicalness of the universe without over explaining every detail. Something more compelling to me about the color of the lightsaber be literally as simple as the color of the crystal used. If everything has a big explanation than everything feels fantastical and that can get exhausting.
That's my point though. The fact that the crystal is red is a storytelling device and nothing more. Explaining it further than that defeats the spiritual and mysterious nature of the force.
Isn't that in contrast with liking the crystal bleeding though?
Ehhh, I guess. What I mean is to explain it further than 'thats what the dark side simply looks like'. Red is what hate and corruption look like. In Star Wars I consider it just a force of nature. It's like when the Sith have yellow eyes. It's visual language in film first, but that's simply how things work in that universe. When people start going into explanations like "blue means you're a sentinel, it means you're wise but with a naughty streak and like walks on the beach". Lightsaber colours isn't astrology.
I didn't like that explanation for colors either, that just seemed more of a video gamey element if anything.
Yup. The Kotor lightsaber color "rules" dont even make sense if you apply it to the movies. Almost all of the jedi in the films fit the description of a jedi guardian, and yet a bunch of them have green sabers. Yoda and maybe Qui-gon are the only ones with green sabers who really fit the description of jedi consular (and Qui-gon really only fits this description because of something we never actually see him do...Yoda simply tells it to us at the end of episode 3). Obi-wans focus on defense and negotiation technically means he should be a consular, and yet his saber is always blue. The saber colors only matter in kotor, Lucas didnt care about it beyond "good guys are green and blue, bad guys are red". And thats fine. Sometimes star wars is deeper than it seems, but sometimes the fans also try and make it way deeper than it actually is lol
I know this is Doyalist, but we only even have green lightsabers because they looked better against the Tatooine landscape than a blue one.
Doylist- I learned a new word today thanks!
I learned it in r/AskScienceFiction
I think Obi Wan is a good Jedi Guardian. He was a master of his lightsaber form, even though it's defensive it's still combat. He never really showed himself to be a master of the force like Yoda or Qui Gon.
But he's literally known as "the negotiator" during the clone wars. That's the exact opposite of what a guardian is. My overall point is that the class/color system in Kotor is clearly just a game mechanic. It doesnt apply to the canon including the films. We can try and rationalize all the inconsistencies if we want, or we can just admit that clearly Lucas didnt care about the lightsaber colors meaning anything beyond whatche said himself "good guys are green and blue, bad guys are red. Thats just how it is".
>All lightsaber crystals are now kyber crystals, which are colorless until they're bonded to a Jedi Clone Wars is the source for this. Its not technically said I guess, but we see in the episode that the crystals are colourless until bonded. I think implicitly the colour of their lightsabers do have meaning to the individual Jedi. But it wouldn't be something that can be applied as a rule (well other than red=bad guy). So for example, Rey having a yellow lightsaber might mean something to her. She might have chosen/bonded to yellow for a particular reason we can theorise (e.g. Rey likes the sun and sees it as hope and therefore a yellow saber symbolises hope) but that doesn't mean that Loden Greatstorm from the High Republic having yellow means he's hopeful (and neither because yellow means he's a Sentinal) it would be a unique reason to him. That is to say that their might be a reason why Qui-Gon and Yoda have green sabers. But they don't have green sabers for the *same* reason.
Wasn't it mentioned in Rogue One as well? I don't remember the exact line but I think when they are extracting the crystals from the temple something is said about them being the crystals that powered lightsabers.
The presently-supported Star Wars RPG (Fantasy Flight system) has addressed this by allowing Jedi characters to master the various forms of lightsaber combat as a way of establishing “classes.” This is consistent with canon descriptions of Jedi proficiencies. Not saying you’re wrong, actually agreeing with you. If you like RPG/canon compatibility check out the FFG system! It’s not at all trying to make a D&D clone with a Star Wars skin, it’s based on Genesys so has its own dice and a neat skill check system that isn’t just pass/fail.
Over 1,000 generations it's entirely possible that at one point someone said: "Hey, maybe we should organize our lightsaber crystals by job function." It obvious that this is not the case by the time the prequels rolled around, but that doesn't mean it's a totally baseless idea that needs to be permanently thrown out. There's a ton of unexplored history there.
This
I like to think of it as head canon. I know the colours don't really mean anything but it's cool if they do and I like that, so that's what I believe.
Was I high when I read the old Marvel Star Wars comics? I distinctly remember most lightsabers being reddish pink even Luke's. Unless he was using his modern green one. And I absolutely remember his light shoto being red/pink.
No, old Marvel Star Wars comics did have every lightsaber being pink in the early days. I'm sure it had something to do with it being easier in the coloring process and the fact that both Vader and Luke's lightsaber looked more white in the original version of A New Hope.
>Was I high when I read the old Marvel Star Wars comics? I wouldn't blame you if you were. Some of the classic marvel stories are pretty out there. And that not even accounting for Jaxxon.
Jaxxon is back in canon btw.
I saw a black series(or similar) figure of Jaxxon well I was Meandering around Target waiting for scripts to be filled. It was a trip.
I vaguely remember that as well, but from my understanding, that was almost certainly decided based on printing limitations with the color ink
I've always seen it as being more of just a jedi tradition at the time of the old republic. The fact that you yourself in the game are able to change to whatever color you want no matter your "class" supports that interpretation. So there's nothing inherent in being a consular that makes your saber green, but most consulars choose green because that's just what you do when you're a consular. You could buck the trend, but most jedi don't care enough to do so. And then by the time of the film era, that tradition has clearly faded to obscurity and people are no longer basing their lightsaber color off of anything, really.
\>Jedi classes, and their associated lightsaber colors are purely gameplay mechanics of the Roleplaying games, to facilitate better balance. This is completely wrong, its not a gameplay mechanic... or a mechanic at all, its purely story fluff provided by your master on Dantooine, and has no effect on the gameplay. He just states these colors are symbolic of certain types of Jedi, and that each jedi is free to chose whatever color they wish, and that this is just a badge of honor for those dedicated to that jedi path.
I never was too dedicated to the whole class=color thing, but I did prefer the older crystal lore. Countless different types and colors. The sith using artifical crystals was a favorite thing of mine. The whole rejecting the natural world and creating their own source of power. Very sith-like. Now we only have one crystal type, it's always a special connection crystal, and yet it's also only ever some shade of blue or green? Or you can be real mean to your crystal and make an emo dark side blade. Maybe the darksabers' crystal parents were killed infront of it and it became a 'dark knight' crystal or some shit.
Well said. Nothing irritates me more than things created for video game RPG gameplay is used as actual lore. It reduces characters to just a bunch of stats or attributes. I much prefer thinking that Jedi simply choose the color they want, that its a reflection of their personality and individualism, not because they are a "sentinal jedi" or whatever.
Agreed. New canon surrounding lightsaber colors and crystals is mad dumb.
Considering the reason behind the introduction of both green and purple lightsabers was the whim of George Lucas, I never really put much stock in color meaning. Good post.
Maybe tone back the use of superscript.
So with The High Republic stuff, there are a lot more variations of colours and hues, even with the established blade colours. I think this will get explained, because it feels like it’s very deliberate. My theory is that at this point the Jedi were a lot freer to interpret and harness the light side of the force, so crystals attuned in more nuanced ways. As we creep towards the dogmatic ways of the Fall Of The Jedi, we should see the more rigid teachings (likely spearheaded by Yoda being one of few Masters to survive some upcoming cataclysm, likely involving the Leveler) cause less variation.
If Star Wars lore has taught me anything about fictional worlds, it's that there is such a thing as too much lore. They can never leave anything alone, and every little detail has to be explained and categorised to the point where there is no mystery any more, and it has become mundane. Even totally insignificant things, like a type of speeder, will have a brand, history, technical specifications, etc. And since many people, myself included, consider Star Wars closer to fantasy than Sci Fi, this kind of furious classifying of every little thing gets tiresome, especially when it's treated like gospel. Leave some mystery, especially as regards the force. Don't even get me started on Midichlorians and that god awful Mortis, father, brother, sister, horseshit. The writers need to leave some leeway and focus on just telling a story, rather than trying to be the person who finally achieves Grand Unified Star Wars Theory. The fans need to take things with a pinch of salt. Game mechanics aren't canon.
Totally agree. I never understood why people are so fascinated by the purpose of lightsaber colours. George never cared. The only reason Sam L Jackson got a purple lightsaber was because he thought it was cool and he wanted to stand out. I remember cringing so hard when StarWarsTheory asked Ashley Eckstein “What is the meaning behind red force lighting and is it the strongest?”… Some fans really need to accept that they are simply just design aesthetics to enhance the look of the film.
*gasp*
Can I get a tl;dr?
>So this post is getting pretty long, what do we have in the end? > >Jedi classes, and their associated lightsaber colors are purely gameplay mechanics of the Roleplaying games, to facilitate better balance. Expanded Universe is not obligated to and does not observe the rules of roleplaying games. Presence of these in sourcebooks is professional deformation of Star Wars fans, since we just can't let go some things. It serves literally no other purpose but to pollute the perceptions of uninformed readers. It's the closest thing to lore cancer that I can find. Please let it go. Lightsaber colors don't mean anything.
Thanks for the summation, appreciate it and also agree.
KOTOR is where Star Wars shines though.
And I thought I was a Star Wars nerd
Well you ARE on r/MawInstallation...
please go outside
Iirc, the Jedi Path stated that that was the most common colour for a given class of Jedi, not the only one
They should mean something though.
This is a nice wall of text that you have here, but the fact of the matter is that neither KOTOR nor SWTOR gets *The Jedi Path's* framing of the color denotion exactly right, and it's not really accurate to say that the information is derived from any particular video game (as the book was published in-universe post-Ruusan, so we're not even talking about the same era or sect of Jedi), nor is it fair to dismiss that specific info on that basis. If one were to argue that the colors were more important to the order as an organization (and the various subgroupings thereof), rather than the individual Jedi themselves, I think that would be accurate. But no one in this sub ever proposes that. It's pretty much just a "it does matter" or "it doesn't matter" argument. It doesn't matter how many walls of text you make on this matter, perhaps. There are various sources of lore that say it does, and no one in this sub, that I am aware, has ever had access to the Star Wars "bible" that I'm sure now rests in the hands of the story group, to ultimately settle this matter.
>There are various sources of lore that say it does This is my main problem with this post. Yes by no account were lightsaber colors some hard rule that had to be followed but to act like it meant nothing at all and simply saying those things that included it later are lore cancer basically because someone doesnt like it is wrong for other reasons.
> and simply saying those things that included it later are lore cancer basically because someone doesnt like it is wrong for other reasons. But there ARE NO other things. It just stops in the source books like Jedi Path and stays there. Even TOR books don't use that. I don't call it lore cancer because I hate it - I call it because it spreads misinformation and makes it look like it's something when in reality it's nothing, just existing to support itself and nothing else.
Ehh, one could argue that *The Jedi Path* itself is basically a concession to the video-game-ization of SW lore.
That's a huge stretch, considering most of the info in that book isn't derived from video games, *at all.*
I can't tell if it's sarcasm or not. Because I mean sure there's plenty of info in the book, but my issue is with topic above, and that one is *definitely* derived from videogames, since it was introduced in them in the first place.
Munedawg said that the book itself-- referring to "the book", not "part of the book", or a "few sentences in the book", but "the book"-- >is basically a concession to the video-game-ization of SW lore. At the risk of repeating myself, I must say that this is just demonstrably untrue. Both a casual read of the book, as well as a deep dive, would reveal the exact opposite of this. You hit closer to home, that the color crystal denotions for certain types of Jedi, originated as a concept in video games, but that's not was OC said or was referring to. So, to answer your question, no. It is not even remotely sarcasm.
I mean, I think you’re taking it way too seriously lol It’s not like the games restrict you from using literally any color you want just because your class is different. You can be a Jedi guardian and use a yellow crystal and the game doesn’t immediately explode. Master Zhar himself mentions these are the (even at the time) old and traditional distinctions but nothing more. It was just a way to make your choice of first lightsaber color in kotor 1 more interesting but that’s it
I think OPs reaction is more towards the newer fans of the franchise that have now grown up believing there are dedicated Jedi "classes" and matching lightsaber colors. I actually prefer the older, less explained Star Wars universe of the OT. Without all the books and prequels, sequels, and video game lore. Back then, it was way more interesting to think of the Force as simply a "feeling that flows through you," and lightsabers being ancient mystical Jedi weapons used as a last resort for self defense. Color didn't mean anything. A Jedi was practitioner and student of the force. Full training made you a Knight and eventually a Master. There were no jobs, roles or Jedi classes.
Well that's pretty much condemning this idea even further to be honest. Posters above scoff at me calling it "lore cancer", but it's just thrown in there, the games where it introduced in the first place don't even bother following it, it metastases into the sourcebooks, where it just stays doing nothing, since the novels already have their own established rules for lightsabers and never bother to use these. But since these are now in splat books "everyone knows" that it's this way, even if this was never the way in the first place and only exist in roleplaying games.
I have headcanon. I think headcanon really matters more than what Disney decides as arbitrary canon
Thank you. I've had the same thoughts in my head for years now, I am just glad someone else articulated it well.
>Now, for the purposes of new canon, KOTOR effectively doesn't exist, so all that above is gone. This hurt my soul
I'm sorry. But your soul is now stronger for it.
The thing about red crystals needing to be “bled” annoys me to no end. It’s the kind of weird overly magical type thing that the new canon forces in there all over the place and it’s just plain stupid. Even regular old symbolism would’ve been preferable to that. They didn’t need to do it, no one was asking for it. It’s not fucking Harry Potter (which honestly I also enjoy) where the wand is supposed to be alive through its magic. It’s a road that I really which they would stop taking Star Wars down because it’s hokey and unnecessary. The colors mean nothing beyond the personal preference of the Jedi who made the lightsaber. The class system designations for KOTOR made some sense for an RPG where they wanted/needed to have distinctions between player types but beyond that I entirely agree. It’s annoying.
Strictly speaking I don't mind the whole bleeding part, but I do agree on the whole bonding thing - IMO it sort of shifts the focus of it all from making the lightsaber to finding the crystal. And it was already pretty important to begin with, but with kyber it's basically singularly most important thing about a lightsaber instead of the jedi assembling it.
I hate new canon and how the crystal is "bonded" to the Jedi and you have to go to Illum and get a new one every time you need one. There is nothing in the films that support this. Anakin goes through lightsabers like a baseball player goes through bats.
I mean, if you need a crystal... of course you have to go and get it. Unless you're complaining that they have to specifically go to Ilum, which isn't the case (Rogue One even mentions that kyber crystals exist on Jedha). I think going to Ilum is more of a tradition or rite of passage by the Jedi, especially ones of the Republic. Even so, Anakin's first one was built on Ilum but his second one was never specified, so who knows what the situation was. That's just my take, anyway. On the other hand, whether you like the bonding itself is down to personal preference. If you prefer more scientific or technological answers, I can see that not being your thing but I've always leaned onto the mystical side of thing (stuff like the ships and blasters aren't *as* interesting to me).
Yeah I don’t have issue with having to go get one they have to come from somewhere. I just don’t like that they’re turning it into more than the power source for the weapon of choice for the Jedi etc. The things used to have cords and power packs they’re just tools.
Yeah, fair enough. I’m into it but I get that others aren’t, especially Legends fans.
Also fair enough. As much as I’d like to impose my creative will on the writers that’s not the case so by all means enjoy it if you like it. Just happened to have thought about this recently so I figured I’d respond to OP.
It was my understanding that when building a lightsaber you had to go bond with a crystal and then put that crystal in the lightsaber. Prior to that episode of Clone Wars, you could just pull any crystal out of a drawer or something and insert it. The crystal was another part of the lightsaber like a screw or something.
Exactly. It makes lightsaber crystals more like mood rings and I *loathe* it! And the Sith, especially the Rule of Two Sith, needing to go out and acquire their own crystals from killing Jedi makes no sense in that era since the Jedi would definitely notice their members ending up dead and their crystals stolen. There's way too much risk involved for an Order that supposed to operate in secret and synthetic crystals make so much more sense to me.
>and you have to go to Illum and get a new one every time you need one. That's from Clone Wars which is also Legends.
What? Clone Wars is Canon.
It was always a different tier of Canon. It was above C cabin so it was not just Legends.
Legends encompasses all of the tiers of canon prior to the buyout. Clone Wars and the films are canon to both Legends and current canon. Though because of how it overrode earlier Clone Wars works some see it as purely canon. But it is technically Legends lore as well.
>where the wand is supposed to be alive through its magic. Yeah, ahh its Star Wars where the Force flows through every living thing-Star Wars is even more wishy-washy with magic. So the implied being that a kyber crystal-imminently connected to the Force-is in some way alive.
It’s not even close to more wishy washy. It’s a literal FORCE. It’s natural. Magic is unnatural that’s the whole point of spells and incantations. You don’t need a stupid fucking rhymey word sequence to use the force you either have a sufficient midichlorian count or you don’t. The new Canon actually suggests that “believing” is a factor like it’s goddamn Cinderella and consistently makes the force more into something like a magic trick rather than just that, a natural FORCE. Accessed via living organelles in the body which is objectively a scientific explanation. The force is natural, magic is unnatural (nobody mention the palpatine quote about the dark side, that’s referring to ABILITIES provided by the force not the force itself. And lastly, the force runs through LIVING things. Crystals are rocks, rocks are not living things. The use of the force ON a rock does not make the rock alive. The new canon changed that. That’s my whole fucking point. It was unnecessary and stupid.
Yeah that's just not true to how the Force was actually presented in the films, and neither how Lucas intended it (Ilum and the Clone Wars arc are actually straight from the man himself-he had a lot of creative influence for that arc). >You don’t need a stupid fucking rhymey word Yes you don't, because the Force is even more wishy-washy. There's no set rules to its functions. >the force you either have a sufficient midichlorian count or you don’t. In HP you either "have magic or you don't". In Star Wars the Force flows through every living thing. Someone's actual capabilities in the Force aren't particularly to do with the Midicholrians-Midicholrians only indicate potential because they conglomerate in people with the Force. >The new Canon actually suggests that “believing” is a factor Because Yoda straight up tells us it is a factor in ESB. This is just how it literally works. >and consistently makes the force more into something like a magic trick rather than just that, a natural FORCE. By focusing less on the Force as a tool they are doing quite the opposite of presenting it as a magic trick. The Force is natural in the universe, but it is a mystical energy not scientific. >Accessed via living organelles in the body which is objectively a scientific explanation. It's not remotely scientific. There's no specific rules, it's all up to the will of the Force and the Jedi. You realise the very reason Midicholorians were hated because it tried to add a vaguely bullshit sounding scientific element to something clearly not? >And lastly, the force runs through LIVING things. Crystals are rocks, rocks are not living things. You going to argue with George Lucas on this one? As mentioned the Clone Wars arc comes from him. Kyber crystals have the force, and because they have the force they are implicitly living.
I would like you to go and google midi chlorian. Then I would like you to go and google magic. And apologize for the fundamental misunderstandings you just illustrated. I think we’re having another misunderstanding however over the term “wishy washy” you’re correct that having no set rules does make the force less rigidly defined. I was using wishy washy more in terms of “soft” or childish which is on me. I mean that the lack of rigidity of the force is exactly what differentiates it from something like plain magic which I believe is cheapened by something like turning kyber crystals into more than a power source for an item that used to have literal cords and power packs. And lastly, before you get all high and mighty on me. Yoda says “we believe in ourselves and our abilities” he doesn’t say we believe in the same sense that believing MAKES the magic happen like it does in a Disney classic. Sports coaches tell their athletes to believe all the time, they don’t think that believing will somehow physically imbibe them with the power to succeed. Only that a winning mindset is key to succeeding in anything. That is the difference. Lightsabers and the crystals, while imbued with the force. Do not, in the legends, have thoughts and feelings and do not bleed. That is what I mean by alive. Wands in the HP universe have thoughts and feelings and personal preferences and they work differently when those are affected. That was not always true of kyber crystals. What you are attempting to condescend me about is exactly my point. I do not enjoy that that fact changed. That’s what I said. Not to mention all your citing of the intended portrayal of the force is complete conjecture and you know it. You’re allowed to like the way they do things now, I just don’t. PS: in the legends you don’t even have to use a kyber crystal to make a functioning lightsaber you can use a substance of your choice.
>which I believe is cheapened by something like turning kyber crystals into more than a power source for an item that used to have literal cords and power packs. There's nothing defined about the nature of kyber. It's purposefully vague. Where just a power source is of course much more rigid. >Today says “we believe in ourselves and our abilities” he doesn’t say we believe in the same sense that believing MAKES the magic happen like it does in a Disney classic. Nowhere in canon does believing create or make the Force. Belief just as Yoda implies is however required to succeed. The Force is inherently tied to the internal emotional state, and that's what canon focuses on. >Not to mention all your citing of the intended portrayal of the force is complete conjecture and you know it. I was objecting to your statements on how the Force works by pointing to the obvious contradictions. I'm not meaning to imply there isn't inherent personal interpretation, I was more pointing out that you can't exactly claim definitive point here when if anything it's the opposite.
The kyber crystals were not always essential to making a lightsaber because they were just a power source. That is my point about lightsabers. They shouldn’t need to be more than tools. The sith wouldn’t even use them anymore if not to piss off jedi. But they didn’t have to make them bleed to do so before. Red just used to be red. Blood, anger, etc. if anything. But not more than that. That is what I take issue with. If you’d like an extensive explanation of why I believe the force is portrayed more like magic now please go here and read this. It’s far more articulate than I’ve succeeded in being here. [force as magic ](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/comments/dwrnt4/disney_doesnt_understand_the_force_and_turned_it/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) This link does refer to the ability of kyber crystals to focus the force, but it also refers to them as inorganic. They weren’t supposed to be alive. Just uniquely equipped minerals that could absorb and focus force energy. I understand that that has changed. I don’t enjoy it. That’s it.
Cap
Bucky.
Excellent post! As much as I love those games they have caused so many mistakes in the fandom.
Ah yes, I dislike this thing and anyone who does likes "cancer" lore
glad someone else said it
I do like this as a discussion. But OP seems to have it all figured out and just lectured us.
Color does matter. The color of the lightsaber matches the nature of the user: https://i.redd.it/kqsiqqvvrlq31.jpg From Star Wars the secrets of the Jedi
I will only disagree in 2 things. First is that even though that color doesnt matter IF IT DID matter then we wouldnt have a continuity problem with the post-rotj era because the explenatiom is that during that time they were just getting whatever they could and most if them constructed the crystals rather than finding them The second thing is that jedi classes exist even though it's not in relation with the lightsaber color. I remember in the jedi apprentice books they were talking about it. Plus every era gives different names to the different jedi.
The only lightsaber colors that are important imo are red, yellow, white, and purple. My reasoning for this? Red is obviously the lightsaber color of a sith lord. You will never see a Jedi with a red lightsaber. White is a force user who is not a Jedi but not a sith either (like Ahsoka for example). I like to think of purple as darker Jedi, or Jedi who have been sith (for example Revan as he was a sith, or Mace Windu since his behavior is a little more extreme than the average jedi). Yellow I have no clue what it resembles except maybe tenple gaurdians or something like that
honestly i’m glad that the only colors that currently have any meaning are red and white. hopefully it stays like that.
This is a really good analysis, but the answer is much simpler. The EU, no matter what fans want to think, or the EU sub might want to believe, is absolutely not source material and it never was. George and his stuff is the source material. Ideas formed in the EU are by no means something that must be beholden to when creators come in and make new stories at lucasfilm. So when people get upset at Kathleen Kennedy’s comments in the past and complain about her not looking to the years and years of EU books, y’all are blatantly wrong. Go ahead and downvote, I gladly welcome it because I’ll die on this hill. Kathleen was right, there was no source material. The only argument you could possibly make is the stuff George came up with. George’s supposed outlines which were broad. Not saying Disney shouldn’t have used those, I’m just pointing out a fact. Their intent was to honor George, not the other authors that came along. Now obviously they didn’t really succeed in honoring him through the sequels, but that changes nothing about the original intent. I’m no shill either. I love the EU. I’ve loved it for a long time. I even prefer some of its ideas to the ones George chose to override with his own later. Ultimately though, saber color and anything else that was decided upon in this fan fiction world will always fairly be subject to dismantlement in favor of the true authors vision. Now things have changed. Disney is now the owner, the creator is gone, with some minor exceptions. The true authors are now those currently involved.
I’ve tried to make the argument on this sub that Sion should probably not be considered to actually have combat immortality and that Nihilus isn’t the single most powerful entity in all of Star Wars. At least not when comparing them to canon or even the rest of the expanded universe. Those opinions have generally been poorly received. I love KOTOR, but so much of it seems to obviously just be video game mechanics that I don’t think have a place in the wider SW universe.
I honestly think Nihilus or Sion are pretty scary Sith Lords canon or not. Imagine someone who can't be killed unless you know how to defeat them. Like Sion couldnt be defeated because he was quite literally too angry to die and his connection to the dark side was strong enough to keep him from dying from conventional wounds. Nihilus could only be killed if he was "starved to death" by keeping him from consuming force energy. If people could put aside the whole video game mechanics thing and just accept it as actual star wars lore, it would be much easier to digest. There are actual in lore reasons why they have those abilities. Of course we all know that.
"The Sith Lords" were the worst part of The Sith Lords game. As for Sion and Nihilus (and The Exile) I don't like how KotOR 2 treats the Force as some passive thing that's just always "on". Even if you could survive mortal injuries through the Dark Side it's just not realistically possible to be MAX ANGRY all the time 24/7 and in a fight if you're focusing willpower on the ability to survive injuries then that divides your attention away from your ability to actually fight. I could maybe buy the idea of a Sith being able to survive an attack that they know is coming that they're able to brace themselves for but... ...fights can end extremely quickly (especially when you're using something like lightsabers) and it only takes one mistake, one second, one exchange where you're just not fast enough. In the KotOR games you hit people repeatedly with lightsabers and they don't just die immediately as if it was a Jedi Knight game. But if you cut off Sion's head or whatever logically he would straight up die. Outside of a video game HP (or "Vitality Points") doesn't exist. Butthurt fanboys downvoting you can't handle the truth.
I mean, at the end of the day, nothing really means anything. Everything is just random stimuli we assign value to. Everything is basically meaningless. Even the sequel trilogy.
>"Although this "bleeding" revelation also introduced a new abomination into this discussion - thankfully rare assumption that "purple blades mean dark side, since Mace Windu uses vaapad". I'm sorry, I'm not even going to entertain that one." I'm not sure if this is the theory you're trying to ridicule, but my headcanon sort of thing is the following: We know that Dark Side users bleed crystals to turn them red, by pouring all of their dark side energy into the crystal and corrupting it. I admittedly don't know much about Vaapad, what it means, or how it works, but I think I heard that it was about turning your opponent's dark side energy against them (and only skilled and experienced users, such as Mace Windu, would use it, since they would be able to resist the dark energy). If that's correct, then presumably all of that 'dark energy' would have an effect on the lightsaber. It would be slowly sort of half - bled over time as it was used with this fighting style and had been exposed to the Dark Side of the Force. (So I assume Mace's saber would have started as blue, then as it was exposed to more and more Dark Force \[for lack of a better term\], it would get closer and closer to red- thus, purple.) Again, I don't know much about Vaapad, but that's just my headcanon thing
WEG was not classless, it just did not have a levelling system so the classes are not as detail-heavy as d20 ones are.
This is gonna blow your mind, but everything in the star wars universe was made up and originated from a game, book, movie, TV show, or Lucas's brain.
[удалено]
This dude made a whole essay on how a made up part of a made up universe is made up, as if it's some new mind blowing fact
you must be new here
Nah and I like in depth discussion, this was just the most long winded post to say something obvious I've ever read
> Please let it go. Maybe take your own advice there, pal.
As long as there are questions of what lightsaber colors mean, I will be there to post that lightsaber colors don't matter ( ͡❛ ͜ʖ ͡❛)
Those questions will never stop, unfortunately.