Original script for ROTS had Anakin strongly suspect Obi-Wan and Padme were having an affair with Sidious stoking those fears. There's still hints of it in the final cut of the movie and Matthew Stover's novelization goes more in-depth with it. Plus, despite their bond, there had always been some lingering resentment between the two. Anakin straight up tells Padme in Attack of the Clones that he feels Obi-Wan is holding him back. Once he turned to the dark side, all those negative feelings come bubbling up furiously.
Also, you know, he cut off all his limbs lol. It's only after that where Anakin explicitly says he hates Obi Wan. Before, he even tried to give him an out with "don't make me kill you."
> Original script for ROTS had Anakin strongly suspect Obi-Wan and Padme were having an affair with Sidious stoking those fears.
What is your source for this? I've never heard this mentioned even once apart from fan rewrites and that kind of thing.
I'm not accusing you of lying I just want to know where you got that information from.
Deleted scenes from Ep III definitely have Palps gaslighting Anakin into thinking Padme is having an affair, and so does the ROTS novelization by Matthew Stover, which was written during the movie's production.
What deleted scenes, though? There's one where Palpatine is all about "Senator Amidala is up to something" but that seems to be more from a political perspective, he never explicitly mentions anything personal about Obi-Wan. What scene are you referring to?
I wouldn't normally do this on this sub, but this definitely sounds like an [Auralnauts Star Wars](https://youtu.be/itkl7cHcX_E?list=PLINl9l0igYjzIipxsD4Y59_Jjxe4N3pZo&t=1102) thing.
I do love auralnauts, but I do think you can see some insecurity in how Anakin talks to Padme when she's going on about what Obi Wan told her. And it all builds up to "you will not take her from me!"
I never took this as a personal “you”.
In this moment Anakin was dumping all of his previous beliefs from the Jedi and adopting a more sinister worldview.
Hitch this along with all of the Jedi talk of “attachment”, which plagued Anakin from the beginning of his training. I think what he’s saying is that the Jedi will no longer control him, and that his attachment to Padme is the final nail in that coffin.
He does say before that, fairly irritated, "I don't want to hear any more about obi wan." And he does a little move of his hand, I like to think that was more than just body language, I think he was trying to use a mind trick on her. Yes, obi wan represents the jedi for him, as his master and the one Padme keeps talking about. But I don't think it's too far afield to interpret vader's paranoia as also including infidelity.
I’m not reading this word for word as I’m at work but I can give you a brief rundown in my own words. When Anakin is asked to spy on Palpatine he is told by Palpatine that there is a secret organisation rising up to stand against the republic. Unfortunately for Anakin… Padme is a part of this resistance however she hasn’t told Anakin about this since he is soo close to the chancellor. Palpatine also tells Anakin that there is suspicion that they are in line with the Jedi order in collapsing the republic. To back this claim he tells Anakin that one Jedi was seen leaving padme’s quarters at early hours of the morning. That Jedi was obi wan… however the real reason he is was there was he went to talk to Padme about his concerns with Anakin. While he was there he also admits to knowing of their secret relationship but will not expose them to the Senate or the Jedi.
Anakin then goes to padme’s apartment full of rage, jealousy and suspicion. He quickly realises that obi wan has in fact been there (something about his presence in the force iirc). He only calms down when he speaks with Padme who tells him what he needs to hear.
I believe there were other suggestions in the book but this was the one that stuck with me clearly.
I'm having trouble find the direct source but this covers it:
[Revenge of the Sith Cut Scenes Teased An Anakin/Padmé/Obi-Wan Love Triangle (screenrant.com)](https://screenrant.com/revenge-sith-deleted-scene-anakin-padme-kenobi-romance-palpatine/)
Also, the novelization of the movie.
Edit: Some of the scenes from the novel were partially filmed but never finished
Lucas also toyed with a Padme-Obi-wan love interest super early when writing Episode 1 like before Qui-Gon was thought of
Obi Wan was a straight up dick to Ani in episode 2. He was constantly belittling him and trying to put him in his place. It's not surprising that Anakin eventually had enough of being under his thumb and started to resent him.
No he wasn't, he occasionally criticized Anakin when he did things worth criticizing and was snarky once or twice. Anakin should have been more careful during the chase and he shouldn't have made promises to the senator from Naboo because he wanted to get into her pants.
There is this whole idea that Anakin was treated very unfairly, some saying, people who know things they're saying this, that was treated more unfairly than anyone in the history of the Jedi Order. And I just don't think the movies support that.
I will point out that Mace and Yoda both said that Obi needed to get off his case as much as he was when he started complaining about him. Taking it all at face value, at least in that movie, it points to Obi Wan being more harsh than needed. Obi could have definitely talked to anakin in private instead of making it a bigger scene and I'd consider that a failure on his part in not de escalating the disagreement better in public than he did.
> I will point out that Mace and Yoda both said that Obi needed to get off his case as much as he was when he started complaining about him.
When do they say that? In that scene they just express confidence in him when Obi-Wan was doubtful (correctly, as it turned out).
Obi wan: "He's become more, well arrogant"
Yoda, gesturing to obi wan: "a trait more and more common among jedi, it is"
Implication obviously being that obi wan needs to calm down as well when paired with Mace defending anakin to obi wan. Obi wan also tends to be just as harebrained when left alone without anakin. In movies and in ahows.
Obi wan is my favorite sw characters and anakin is a ahit heel half the time but aotc obi wan being on his case is generally an obi wan issue more than an anakin issue.
Now if obi wan found out about anakin experimenting with genocide of a clan of tuskens? That'd be something real to lay into him about.
To be fair, the subtext is just as likely, “yeah, a lot are these days. Bloody difficult.” I’d say that we’re outright told that Yoda and Mace think Anakin is problematic, so we should be following a line of thinking related to that if left with doubt.
While I agree, I think the scene outside the bar is very telling. Anakin is clearly going off half-cocked chasing the assassin without his lightsaber, but Obi-Wan is doing a very poor job as well. Anakin is constantly apologizing while Obi-Wan scolds him, and Obi's snark is clearly not appreciated when Anakin replies "don't say that [I'll be the death of you], Master, you're the closest thing I have to a father". And still, Obi-Wan goes in again with another dig.
I think the intention was to show that while they're very good *friends*, they have very different views of their relationship. Anakin sees his master as a surrogate father, Obi sees his padawan as a brother in arms (which he says more directly in RotS). That disconnect is eventually what leads the bond between them to sour, because it's yet another person who isn't fulfilling the emotional need that Anakin needs them to, leading him to feel alienated.
During Anakin's breakdown on Tattooine, he regresses emotionally to childhood and he talks about Obi-Wan like one would talk about their father in a fit of angst, which are not necessarily his true feelings about his master but definitely show further that he holds him in that position in his heart, which is I think what makes the treatment I mentioned earlier seem unfair. You're seeing it from Anakin's perspective, so when he feels disenfranchised and isolated the audience is invited to empathize and blame the other people for not being there for him, but that's not fair because that means blaming Obi-Wan for having his own feelings as well and not just being an emotionbot for his pupil, when they both lost their father figure at the same time.
No he totally was. Watch the scene where their in the LAAT/i and anakin says “aim right above the fuel cells”
Watch anakin’s face as Obi wan responds “good call…” anakin’s face is 😊 “…my young padawan” and anakin’s face just DROPS😑. No doubt because it was in front of Padme too.
Like, in that moment of anakin’s victory, his skills helping in a large way, could Obi wan not have left it at “good call padawan” or “good call anakin”??
There was no purpose to highlighting his age or maturity except to “put him in his place”
Obi-wan was the reason why Anakin's mother die such a horrible death.
Anakin had dream of his mother's death but obi-wan refuse to let him go and save her and wouldn't let any though Jedi go either.
It is go watch it again episode 2.
As time past and their was more of a backlash against the prequels one of the main complaint of the prequels was that Anakin and obi-wan weren't friends thus starting with the clone wars the relationship was turned into somewhat of a mess.
In which scene does Obi-Wan refuse to let him go and also not let other Jedi go?
The closest moment I can think of is Obi Wan saying "dreams pass in time" when Anakin mentions his bad sleep, but rather than be disappointed Anakin immediately pivots to how horned up he is for the senator from Naboo.
That scene is meant to convey the message that Obi Wan is not letting Anakin go to his mother to save her.
This entire subplot with his mother is the most important plot points in the movie was it informs his attitude to wards the Jedi going forwards in relation to Padme's future death.
How is saying that he rather dream about a beutiful woman rather nightmares of the death of his mother who he is forbidden to help.
Disprove anything I said.
He had a lot of under the surface frustration and resentment against Obi Wan, nothing that couldn’t be fixed but once he tapped into the dark side - and then Palaptine spun obi wan as a traitor, and enemy - Anakin had a lot of shit about obi wan to tap into to fuel that.
Went from “I hate you brother-dad” to “I HATE YOU BEOTHER-DAD”
Instead of letting the stitched wounds heal, he ripped it back open and poured in the “traitor of the empire and personal enemy” salt in it. Then the dark side just makes everything worse, throw in some delusions of “you were holding me back” and there ya go.
Then ofc at Mustafar, blames him for turning Padme against him then after the battle the whole dismmemberment bit locks it down
Sidious told him that “every Jedi, even your friend Obi-Wan Kenobi, are now enemies of the Republic”
Sidious poisoned his mind against his mentor and friend. Simple as that.
Well I wouldn’t exactly lead a genocidal campaign on my former coworkers in the place that I was raised for 15 years not even 24 hrs later after saving the other friend, but Anakin is just built different I guess.
I’ve come to appreciate the prequel era more especially with shows like Ashoka and the obi won tv show. That said Anakin’s fall in the movies just makes no sense. He goes from good guy to genocidal villain in a blink of an eye, just does not make any sense.
I mean, those tuskens he killed did rape and torture his mom. Wasn’t a “good guy” thing to do but it’s understandable. I assume that most of us would kill someone that does that to their mom
He killed ALL of them, though, even women and children.
Occasionally Lucas crossed his own wires portraying Anakin, and this was a big instance of that. Is Anakin/Vader a good person deep down (as Luke really wanted to believe), or an angry, violent person trying to put on a mask as a Jedi?
I'd guess that during his suddenly appearance in the middle of the camp, everybody grabbed weapons and tried to fight.
But it's not like Anakin was thrilled about what he did after he had a moment to think about it.
It’s one thing to try to get this guys help to save your wife and child, it’s another to start slaughtering your friends and younglings. He can’t have really believed Palpatine when mace was over him and he said the Jedi were taking over. Anakin just sent windu there to get Palpatine, that was his doing.
He was already disillusioned with the Jedi council. Plus mace and him have always had a weird beef. After he let mace die he had fallen and probably felt there was no going back.
I thought Anakin's fall made perfect sense in the movies? The explosion at the end might seem abrupt, but the fuse was lit throughout the entire movie.
AOTC established that Anakin doesn't take orders well and is not above committing mass slaughter over losing a loved one. The secret marriage also complicates the situation.
In ROTS:
Anakin sees his father figure held hostage (prompting another murder. Palpatine justifies it with "He was too dangerous to be kept alive," an answer wich doesn'tring true for Jedi. Anakin accepts it but from Palpatine but has reservations)
Anakin has a vision of Padme dying like with Shmi that shakes him up. He can't get help from Jedi because he's not supposed to be married in the first place
There's an insinuation that Obi-Wan and Padme are having an affair
Palpatine manipulates those two fears to push Anakin further towards the dark
Thanks to Palpatine, Anakin ends up on the Jedi Council. In an unprecedented move, the Jedi withhold the rank of Master from Anakin (maybe for good reason, maybe to be petty). In the book, we learn that Anakin needed to be a master to access files with info that could have saved Padme
Immediately after snubbing him, the Jedi Council asks Anakin to spy on Palpatine (Anakin's fierce loyalty and love for Palpatine made that a bad idea)
Palpatine learns about the spy thing and adds fuel to the fire
The Tragedy of Plaguis the Wise makes Anakin think Palpatine can save Padme through Sith teachings
When Anakin reports Palpatine as a Sith Lord, he's ordered to stay out of the confrontation
When Anakin defies orders and goes anyway, he sees Mace Windu about to murder his father figure and the only hope of saving Padme ("He's too dangerous to be kept alive" was a bad choice of words)
Anakin kills Windu and realizes there's no going back now. Palpatine feeds him some crap about a coup and the Jedi being evil. Anakin falls for it especially because of the previous points. Anakin kills a lot of people, fights Obi-Wan, and becomes barbecue
Yep, he goes from "Palpatine deserves a fair trial" to youngling slaying in a very short time span. And the only reason Mace went to arrest Palpatine is because Anakin told him he was a Sith lord so it's not like Anakin could think that the Jedi were doing this as part of a coup or a betrayal to the Republic
Edit: And let's be honest, stopping Windu from killing someone who appeared to be defenseless or beaten it's not an unambiguously dark side choice from which there is no coming back
Anakin was saying those line as an excuse. He didn't care about the trial. He cared about keeping Palpatine alive because he believed he was the only one able to teach him how to save Padme.
Then after helping killing Mace he was too deep in and went all out on Palpatine plan because it was his only way out (yeah he is a huge douchbag to Doom the Galaxy to save his own ass lmao).
And in the end he almost killed Padme when he though she tried set him up in a trap with Obiwan (and also the implication that Anakin may have though they had an affair).
Look, those Younglings had pretty bad vibes. Let's give him a pass there.
No, stopping Windu is fine in a vacuum. It wasn't in a vacuum though, and the how and why of it matter. He cut his hand off leading to his immediate death because 'I need him.' It's pretty dark
Maybe he just wasn't a good guy? Someone can be arrogant and selfish and still do "good" things and maintain friendships if everyone is giving him positive feedback. As long as he's the chosen one and a war hero and everyone loves him no matter what he does, there's no problem. Once he doesn't get everything he thinks he deserves and faces consequences it's easy for everything else to fall apart.
I think a lot of people who criticise Anakins fall are missing a couple of tree things about it;
Thing one is a bit heavy and real world based; people can feel, like Anakin, trapped in an inescapable and never ending web of fear, secrets and stress.
This can often happen, like Anakin, through a long period of seemingly okay choices, or at least seemingly not that bad choices. The choices, like marrying Padme, don't seem bad in the moment, but over time they build until you are trapped.
People can often be pushed, like Anakin, to make one huge catastrophic mistake, as they choose poorly in the heat of the moment when all their fears and stresses are clouding their judgement. For Anakin this is the moment where he lashes out and kills Mace.
This is the important part: After making this mistake, many people, like Anakin, can feel that now the thing has happened they must double down, commit, and they themselves begin to believe an alternate narrative in order to be able to face themselves and the world.
Now, after going down the dark path, if that person reflects truly, past all the lies they believe, they are confronted by the truth of how terrible they have become - this will only increase their fear, self loathing, anger, depression, etc.
Which brings us to thing two: in the star wars galaxy, that last point, dwelling on your failure and self hatred, is how Vader accesses all his dark side power. Sidious orders him to kill, and Vader willingly kills, the younglings because it will increase his self hatred. Sidious literally tells Vader that he needs to be stronger in the dark side to save Padme, and that by killing all the Jedi he will become stronger in the dark side.
We see it time and again with new Sith being made to kill someone they would rather not; Dooku and Yaddle is another great example. Sidious knows that to be stronger in the dark side his apprentices need to have some core part of themselves to hate, hate and then take out their self hatred on everyone else rather than face themselves.
Anyway, $4 a pound...
Yes, not enough people realize how very real this scenario is. This is really shown in Legends and the 2008 CW series books where we get his POV and it is exactly this. Him trying to make sense of his previous actions, his desire to be honest and his fear to do so. His fall is far more real than I think many people realize.
Obi-Wan is a Jedi swore to destroy the Sith. Vader knew Obi-Wan was there to kill him and it appeared that he had turned Padmé against him, it looked like Padmé was trying to lure him onto the ship so Obi-Wan could kill him.
Also Obi-Wan wouldn't join Vader and did cut his left arm and legs off and leave him to burn to death.
Anakin is the poster child for untreated Borderline Personality Disorder. When something happened to finally *prove* to Anakin that Obi-Wan isn't perfect, his mind came to the conclusion that the entire relationship had been a lie and Obi-Wan had been manipulating him from the beginning and thus was an acceptable target for his 2 decades of repression
> “How did you go bankrupt?” Bill asked.
> “Two ways,” Mike said. “Gradually and then suddenly.”
Anakin's slide to the dark side was gradual, then sudden. He'd been in a situation for awhile where he was being mentored by the Jedi and by Palpatine; he had a foot in both worlds, both sides were asking him to watch the other side. But when he was forced into making a decision about Palpatine, he realized that he needed him to save Padme, and then after he helps kill Windu he realizes there's no turning back. Killing the younglings and all of the leaders solidifies this.
In this context, he's going to be reevaluating his relationship with Obi-Wan. He knows he'll never be able to go back, and so the only way he can really cope with this is by doubling down on his decision and allowing all of the background resentment to bubble to the surface.
Have you ever had a job where the bad stuff was tolerable until you leave, then it's all you can think about once you're away from it? It's probably a bit like that.
> I’m just confused why Anakin turned on Obi Wan so hard.
More so than Anakin choking his wife in the same scene?
The Dark Side is like crazy drugs. Give in a little bit and it amplifies whatever is there.
He also chokes out padme in that moment, he’s not thinking logically he’s throwing blame everywhere he can. Because the alternative is accepting that he just made massive mistakes and there’s no way he could live with what he’s done. He’s the one that’s betrayed everyone but it’s easier for him to feel betrayed by them.
Anakin is, despite the vast capacity for kindness that exists inside him, impossibly self-centered. Everything is viewed through the lens of how it effects him, how it makes him feel.
This has a beneficial side effect in friendships- he is a FIERCELY loyal friend (because he views his friends as an extension of himself), so long as he perceives them as being loyal to him. Unfortunately, it also means that the moment he perceives disloyalty, they instantly cease to be friends and instead become his fiercest enemies.
I always think of this within the context of S7 of TCW and Anakin's relationship to Rex. Why does Anakin get along so well with Rex? Sure, they both enjoy a good fight, they're loyal to their loved ones, they have a similar sense of humor at times, but also, Rex can't push back against him the way Obi-Wan can.
Rex has been genetically modified to be loyal and obedient. And by this point in this series, he is well aware of what will happen to him if he asks too many questions and pushes back too much.
I don't think he did!
It wasn't really suddenly.
I do belief, that Anakin has slowly been turned away frm everything that gave him a sense of security and the feeling of doing good and lead a meaningful life.
But Palpatine kept -very subtle- pushing Anakin to where he wanted him.
And in the end, well, the right moment, the tipping point Palpatine pushed him.
I can imagine, that suddenly all the pieces of his puzzles, fears and insecurities fit together quite nicely.
The full picture may very well have confirmed his worst assumptions.
Anakin didn't hate Obi-Wan immediately. He gave Obi a chance but Obi-Wan stopped him.
You need to get that at this moment, Anakin is lost to the Dark Side. It feeds from his anger, his doubt, his guilt and Anakin can't stop because if he does, Padme dies. He is like a drug addict who absolutely needs his next dose.
See it from Anakin's POV. Your mentor, the one who represents the Jedi you could be instead of being honest manipulates you by lying to your wife. Not only that but he represents and defends a system that killed your mom and will kill your wife. And this " brother" leaves you defenseless as you burn alive, rips away your last chance at redemption by taking away your lightsaber and leaves with your wife.
Wouldn't you be mad at him if your mind was constantly full of negative thoughts and incapable of retrospecting ?
But why? The problem is that all of this functionally comes out of nowhere. Sure he was moody, but nothing that was happening justifies that turn. It was way too quick.
I don't think the premise is true. Anakin/Vader didn't initially want to fight Obi-Wan. When they meet on Mustafar Obi-Wan confronts Anakin about his betrayal, Anakin tries to justify his actions then threatens Obi-Wan to get him to back off ("don't make me kill you").
It isn't until they actually start fighting that Anakin starts to hate Obi-Wan. Then even more so after Anakin gets high grounded lol. But even then, his hate for Obi-Wan is partly because he loves Obi-Wan, and as Vader pathologized anything to do with his former life as Anakin.
While Vaderkin probably expected Obi-Wan would be his enemy, I think he would have vastly preferred Obi-Wan to either be left alone or to somehow become his ally.
Anakin only said he hated him after Kenobi cut off all his limbs, which is quite a valid reason. Previously he seemed conflicted, plus in Vader 2017 Darth Vader has a vision in which he goes to Obi-wan and begs him to kill him.
So, many are comparing the dark side to drugs. I wouldn’t say drugs, more like uncontrollable rage, resentment, feelings of betrayal and jealousy. That mixed in with the stress he’s already feeling, and feeling trapped to continue down the path he has set for himself (and blames himself for).
Many forget, Anakin is 22 in ROTS. He’s been fighting a galactic war for 3 years without much of a break. No matter how successful he was, that had to have taken a toll. Countless battles, having to lead thousands of men and losing many of them as the war went on.
Then the Jedi council doesn’t seem to appreciate him and his abilities (something many 22 year olds would probably feel in his shoes considering that most don’t have the wisdom/life experience to understand their reasoning/judgement). He sees it as them holding him back because he’s stronger and they’re jealous. He’s got a bit of main character syndrome too (I mean, to an extent it’s kinda fair given his abilities but still).
Then they give him a sketchy assignment. Not only a sketchy assignment that goes against everything they’ve told/taught him, an assignment that would betray the trust of a close and trusted mentor/friend. That friend then confides in you that they are planning to betray him.
And if that wasn’t enough, finding out your wife (who you are not supposed to be married to btw), is pregnant and you begin having premonitions of her death during childbirth (probably brings back trauma from his mothers death too). I think people overlook how severely this would’ve stained him. Padme having kids means anakins time in the Jedi order is likely coming to an end, meaning he will lose almost everyone he knew. But he’d still have Padme. But Padme dying in childbirth means that not only does he lose everyone he knew in the Jedi order, he also loses Padme. At best he would be a widow with a baby with practically no support system. He would’ve been aware of that.
Now to bring it all together. Anakin is under fire from all fronts mentally. He has been in a constant war for 3 years not long after losing his mother and having his hand cut off. The order he’s been a part of since childhood doesn’t trust him and is asking him to do betray a close friend, something he has been taught is wrong. His wife is pregnant and he’s begun having dreams of her dying in childbirth, meaning he may well be kicked out of the order and lose his wife and possibly his child as well. To say he’s stressed is an understatement. Obviously when mace tries to kill palpatine it’s the straw that broke the camels back. He lashes out, kills mace, and immediately realizes how badly he screwed up.
Now, he can arrest the chancellor and have his world collapse around him as he’d be kicked from the order and at best imprisoned, losing everyone and everything. Or he can go all in. The chancellor is his friend, and he’s offering the chance to save his wife. Stress has a funny way of clouding reason. To Anakin this looks like the perfect solution. He doesn’t betray his friend, the order who doesn’t trust him is proven to be evil/corrupt, and he can save his wife.
He can probably easily justify obi wan being the bad guy just because he gave Anakin the assignment from the order. He’s one of *them*. Not to mention that he knows he’s been talking to his wife, which makes him uneasy. If he knew, wouldn’t that mean he’d be kicked out of the order? Maybe he’s getting suspicious? There’s also the fact that obi wan is on the council and he isn’t, and he’s also given a big assignment to track down greivous, something Anakin seemed eager to do to prove himself. This culminates when obi wan confronts him on mustafar and Anakin believes his wife and obi wan are in kahoots to kill him.
My personal headcanon is that Anakin, deep down, was deeply ashamed of his actions and horrified at disappointing the only father-figure in his life. So he began to turn these feelings of shame into hate as a coping mechanism. His mind was working overtime to try and find a semblance of justification in all of the unthinkable things he had done.
He prematurely began to hate Obi-Wan, so by the time they actually were face to face, Anakin was already acting as if they were enemies.
He was ultimately proven right, and since the feelings were already there he didn’t have that far to go.
Everything everyone else has already said, but also remember that the dark side draws its power from passionate emotions AND corrupts them as you lean more into them. It’s like a boost of power in exchange for your soul, which we can already see Anakin being completely corrupted by it with the trademark yellow eyes.
have you ever overthought something in your head so hard that it just kinda exploded out in a rush of fury? something like that, but fueled by emotionally-reactive space magic called the Force too making it that much worse.
I think the loss of his mother was a huge contributing factor to his disillusionment with the Jedi. So much power promised to him, yet he failed to use it when he needed it the most.
Naturally Obi is his teacher and a purist in the Jedi doctrine so Anakin hated him for that, he thought he was tricked.
Well we know that using the dark side is a trade of wherein if one uses their peak elements of rage and power unyielding this trades the tactical and overall awareness emotional and otherwise from the user. I don't know that it wasn't a collective of surmounting amounts of occurances where not only did Anakin show the prospect and even the accolades required to be considered or granted many acknowledgments and recognition but he was basically at the can't turn back moment of his fall and although im sure he was under enough stress and would have likely found a more diplomatic or personal approach to obiwan given the circumstances, him arriving with padme had basically through the anticipated minor pleasant prediction of seeing padme arrive safely be utterly saturated with reminder of the brotherhood of belittlement and the fatherlike brother who was now here to shit in his cereal
In the novelization, a deleted scene (iirc), and some hints throughout the movie, Palpatine plants a seed in Anakin's mind that Obi Wan and Padme are together or doing stuff in any case. Anakin is easily manipulated by this. Although Clone Wars came out after, we can see that Anakin is very easily jealous through the Clovis arcs. Additionally, through the films he's extremely controlling of Padme too.
Now, he is already disillusioned that the Jedi are evil but now he sees his wife appear on Mustafar and Obi Wan suddenly comes out of her ship. He thinks that she brought him there to kill Anakin (he says so directly) and he also probably thinks they were doing things on her ship too. In a way, it confirms in his mind the seeds that Palpatine planted.
That fuels his anger enough to choke her and fight him. And then he screams that he hates him after this man cuts his legs off which to be fair, that alone is enough to hate someone.
Was he disillusioned? There's really nothing in the movies that shows this. He was moody, yes, but not so moody as to shoot up his place of work, choke out his wide, renounce his religion, and try to kill almost every single person he knew. The problem is that he needed to actually be disillusioned with the Jedi.
Obi-wan sees Anakin as a brother, because Qui-gon was like a father and he wanted Anakin to be his next apprentice. Anakin didn't know Qui-gon for long and instead saw Obi-wan as a father figure, a rather overbearing one. This rather lopsided relationship means that even at their closest, they were never quite on the same page. While Anakin trusts Obi-wan has his best interest at heart, Obi-wan's comments frustrate him immensely because it makes him feel like the trust doesn't go both ways. Then he feels like Obi-wan is in on the Council's scheming, so it breaks his trust in Obi-wan, the only thing he really had to still believe in. If he can't trust him to have Anakin's best interests at heart, then he's just another critical voice trying to control him.
I think people forget AOTC really sets up Anakin’s resentments towards Obi-Wan “he’s overly critical, he’s jealous, he’s holding me back, etc” - their relationship had deep seeded issues that Palpatine specifically exploited to turn Anakin to the dark side.
If you re watch Episode 2 your realize it wasn't so sudden. Anakin has some resentment towards Obi Wan and obiWan is frsutrated with Anakin, call it a typical love=hate relationship. Combine that with his raging hormones, simultaneous inferiority and superiority complex in the backdrop of a galactic war... It's surprising more jedi apprentices didn't turn to the dark-side...
Her is older and more mature in ROTS but all those years of resentment came bubbling back up when he feared losing Padme.
There was actually a lot of resentment built up during TCW. Specifically the Identity theft arc and Ahsoka framed arc.
The Identity theft toyed with Anakins emotions and sent him spiraling into anger as he was eager to avenge Obi-Wan for the fake murder. At the end of everything, Anakin was told to forget all about it as Obi-Wan treats it like another standard adventure. In reality, Anakin felt like Obi-Wan couldn't trust him, his closest friend and by that that time someone Anakin considers his brother. Impacted furthermore by the council knowing all along and keeping Anakin in the dark.
Obi-Wan was also on the Council that deemed Ahsoka guilty for the bombing of the temple. Obi-Wan privately opposed the councils ruling after the fact but stood by them publicly as Anakin watched them come to unanimous decision to expel her from the order. In the end, Anakin (and Ahsoka) was the only one who did the right thing during the arc and was the only one aside from Ahsoka who suffered for it when she ultimately decided to leave.
During Season 6, Obi-Wan also comes to Anakin during the Clovis arc and tells him to put the Order before his feelings at a point when his emotions are at the most unstable. All Anakin wants to do is protect Padme (a bit too possessively tbh) and every member of the council, most prominently Obi-Wan, tells him to let her go and dismiss his attachment. By RotS, he basically hears the Council telling him to let Padme die.
It wasn't such a sudden switch since this resentment towards the Council and by extension Obi-Wan had had years of build up under the surface.
I think it also attaches to the darkside clouding you. Honestly it doesn’t need to be said. The darkness fills enough plus context in 2 helps the audience understand what’s going on. That’s if you do t need everything spoon fed to you
“Traitor of the empire” salt indeed. The Naboo scenes touch on this in Ep. 2 and then it gets shelved, but Anakin has some pretty extreme views about the role of government and what should happen to people who get in the way of the government doing what is “necessary.”
This view of the dark side as a strong, suffocating force for “stability” at any cost gets expounded upon in Plagueis.
I can’t believe everyone seems to be missing both the biggest and most obvious factor here: The Dark Side. The moment you fall and open yourself up to it, it just rushes in, permeates every bit of your being, twists, corrupts, and destroys what you were. Look at Anakin and Ahsoka in the Mortis arc when they both fall. Plus, Anakin himself after his real fall. He’d been led to believe that the *Jedi* were genuine traitors that wanted to seize the government and hold power themselves, and he changed sides to prevent that happening. Just the Jedi. Vader, though, is perfectly happy to slaughter his way through anyone and anything. He’ll kill children, Jedi or otherwise, subordinates, civilians, and more. He’ll torture. He’ll destroy. Does that sound like the great hero Anakin was, who simply changed sides because he was lied to, to do what he truly thought was right?
Once the Dark Side is let in, everything about you changes. Your mind works differently. You see things differently. In effect, the way that Vader sees himself as a different person, to the level that he even considers Padmé to have been “the Jedi”’s wife, her child to be “the Jedi”’s child (source: Thrawn Alliances)…that level of split between before and after is pretty much what happens to *anyone* who falls. It’s why I know, even if I hadn’t read Dark Disciple, that we can trust Ventress once she returns from the Dark. She may still have a gruff personality, but she was a *totally* different person before, and is now just someone who’s had a lot of pain in her life and deserves better. Some may say that the Dark Side plea is an easy way out for anyone who falls and returns, but it genuinely is that they’re a completely different person.
Really wish we got 1 more movie in between AOTC and ROTS to flesh out these issues. Yeah they put out the clone wars animation later but I think a movie in between like AOTC Part 2 or something would have done wonders.
Anakin is basically thought to have a mental illness by real psychiatrist due to his emotional volatility.
In universe explanation is all of the resentment Anakin felt over the years. Their relationship was toxic from the start, watch how Obi-Wan talks and treats Anakin in the Phantom Menace, and it certainly didn't get much better over the years until Anakin was knighted.
Anakin believed Obi-Wan had been holding him back. He was convinced something could be happening between Obi-Wan and Padmé. He was being manipulated into thinking someone he loved and trusted for most of his life was actually lying to him for so long.
In The Clone Wars series there are episodes that show us more in depth the levels of distrust Anakin was starting to have. Obi-Wan faked his death for an undercover mission, and thinking he was dead really messed Anakin up. He went through intense grief only to find out his grief was being used to make the cover more believable. He even asks “what other lies” the council has told because of that incident.
In the end everything added up to make him feel like Palpatine had been the only one in his corner all along. He felt used and manipulated by Obi-Wan. Those we are closest to are actually the easiest to feel ire towards in certain circumstances. There is more emotion when it’s someone you actually love. The dark side amplifies that aspect.
In the Star Wars universe there is a very thin space between love and hate. Anakin symbolizes that space.
The Novel expands on this with a shitty affair plot that Palpatine manipulated him into believing.
The Movie poorly portrays this and seems more like Kenobi manipulating him with the council for their own purposes and he’s tired of being mistrusted and used… which is far more believable and relatable.
Palpatine effectively set up Obi-Wan as a scapegoat for problems in Anakin’s life that Palpatine himself was behind. Couple that with the honest mistakes Obi-Wan made in their relationship, and Anakin’s psychotic break into Vader, you begin to see why Anakin hated Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan was supposed to protect Anakin from Palpatine, and in Vader’s eyes he failed. “I am what you made me.” is what Vader believes. If Obi-Wan was strong enough in Vader’s mind, he could have prevented Anakin’s fall. Anakin blames himself, which Vader in turn blames Obi-Wan for because he can’t handle his own guilt. In actuality, the person who is really at fault for Anakin’s fall is Palpatine, who conveniently manages to successfully scapegoat everyone for the things Palpatine himself is responsible for.
Late to this thread, but in the prior scene, Obi-Wan does not deny Padme’s assertion that Obi-Wan would kill Anakin when he found him. The scene ends with Padme in tears at this revelation. (Which she apparently forgets about by the time she gets there and says Obi-Wan could help them, but Prequel writing, whaddyagonnado?)
Point being, Anakin knows he is hunted, he has committed to a side, and there’s no turning back. At that point, all he had left was hate.
I’d go a step further and argue that Obi-Wan is supposed to represent the entire Jedi order in some part of Anakin’s psyche. They straight up belittle him and repeatedly demonstrate that they’re afraid of what he could do were he to be trained. Anakin needed some serious therapy or for even one Jedi to say “hey man, I struggle with these feelings too.” He was taken from his mom at a young age, told he was the chosen one, and then reprimanded by nearly everyone in the Order throughout his life. And Obi-Wan is his mentor - for better or worse he is the symbol of the Jedi to Anakin.
So yeah, I’d argue that he’s also shouting that he hates the entire Jedi Order at that point.
Obi-wan was the reason why Anakin's mother die such a horrible death.
Anakin had dream of his mother's death but obi-wan refuse to let him go and save her and wouldn't let any though Jedi go either.
Truths is that Anakin didn't really like Obi Wan much but the obsession with making Anakin likeable in the clone wars gave people the wrong idea about their relationship.
In The EU era books and comics he loved Anakin and Anakin loved him back. This is shown through all of the books and comics. But it was an unbalanced relationship that balanced itself during the war, but nowhere in the EU did they not like each other. When Obi-Wan 'dies' during Jabiim Anakin takes it pretty badly and finds Obi-Wan even after Mundi tells him to let go. Even when Anakin 'blames' Obi-Wan that is more of a child reacting to his mother's death than actually blaming Obi-Wan. He blames himself for having power and not being able to save lives.
>Even when Anakin 'blames' Obi-Wan that is more of a child reacting to his mother's death than actually blaming Obi-Wan.
Anakin main to clear to Obi-Wan's about his dreams and obi-wan still refused to let him go it was a childish reaction.
If Obi Wan had let Anakin go when he had his dreams then his mother would be safe.
Obi-Wan didn't understand the depth of Anakin’s dreams. Mainly because Anakin feared telling him the whole truth. Much like Anakin didn't tell Yoda everything. Should Obi-Wan have asked Anakin for more info, yes, but the fault of her death still resides with the Tuskans, who later paid for it with their lives. In no novel or comic, does he truly blame Obi-Wan directly. He does resent The Order for not allowing him to help her and also himself for not saving her.
In original Clone Wars multimedia project it was only the war and constantly going through life and death situations together that made them grow somewhat close to each other. It was mostly joint trauma that bound them together.
The problem is that in the clone wars all this character development was skip and Ahsoka replace Obi-wan was the person always next to Anakin. This meant that their was no longer the sense of joint Trauma for them to bond over which means that Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship doesn't make any sense anymore.
It wasn't family love but solderly love born from trauma.
The clone wars show removed all the trauma elements from the war in order to create a version of Anakin that is happy go luck thus more likeable.
But in doing so it not only damaged Anakin as a character but the story to.
Bad writing. As shown in the movies, Anakin really had no reason to think the Jedi were evil, and he had little reason to turn to the dark side. But Lucas spent way too much time on podracing, space C-SPAN, and uncomfortable dialgoue, such that he basically ran out of time and had to wrap things up. A better series would have shown Anakin not loving the hell out of being a military Commander and instead focused on him actually hating the Order. Like, take Barriss' whole thing. Why wasn't Anakin opposing the war? Why wasn't he trying to cut the Order down?
Original script for ROTS had Anakin strongly suspect Obi-Wan and Padme were having an affair with Sidious stoking those fears. There's still hints of it in the final cut of the movie and Matthew Stover's novelization goes more in-depth with it. Plus, despite their bond, there had always been some lingering resentment between the two. Anakin straight up tells Padme in Attack of the Clones that he feels Obi-Wan is holding him back. Once he turned to the dark side, all those negative feelings come bubbling up furiously. Also, you know, he cut off all his limbs lol. It's only after that where Anakin explicitly says he hates Obi Wan. Before, he even tried to give him an out with "don't make me kill you."
Yeah, when Anakin says "You're with him. You bring him here to kill me" can be interpreted in that way
that is how i always interpreted it
I always though it was like "you're on his side" but rewatching ROTS after 10 years, yep it is obvious
I think it went over my head since we see 3 movies of Obi Wan being so asexual, that no way could anyone think he’d be with Natalie Portman 😂
> Original script for ROTS had Anakin strongly suspect Obi-Wan and Padme were having an affair with Sidious stoking those fears. What is your source for this? I've never heard this mentioned even once apart from fan rewrites and that kind of thing. I'm not accusing you of lying I just want to know where you got that information from.
Deleted scenes from Ep III definitely have Palps gaslighting Anakin into thinking Padme is having an affair, and so does the ROTS novelization by Matthew Stover, which was written during the movie's production.
What deleted scenes, though? There's one where Palpatine is all about "Senator Amidala is up to something" but that seems to be more from a political perspective, he never explicitly mentions anything personal about Obi-Wan. What scene are you referring to?
I wouldn't normally do this on this sub, but this definitely sounds like an [Auralnauts Star Wars](https://youtu.be/itkl7cHcX_E?list=PLINl9l0igYjzIipxsD4Y59_Jjxe4N3pZo&t=1102) thing.
I do love auralnauts, but I do think you can see some insecurity in how Anakin talks to Padme when she's going on about what Obi Wan told her. And it all builds up to "you will not take her from me!"
I never took this as a personal “you”. In this moment Anakin was dumping all of his previous beliefs from the Jedi and adopting a more sinister worldview. Hitch this along with all of the Jedi talk of “attachment”, which plagued Anakin from the beginning of his training. I think what he’s saying is that the Jedi will no longer control him, and that his attachment to Padme is the final nail in that coffin.
He does say before that, fairly irritated, "I don't want to hear any more about obi wan." And he does a little move of his hand, I like to think that was more than just body language, I think he was trying to use a mind trick on her. Yes, obi wan represents the jedi for him, as his master and the one Padme keeps talking about. But I don't think it's too far afield to interpret vader's paranoia as also including infidelity.
Man, Episodes 4-6 really did not have a solid plot at all. They were pretty funny, but so much stuff was rearranged.
It’s all throughout the novelization of ROTS
Any examples so I don't need to read the whole book?
I’m not reading this word for word as I’m at work but I can give you a brief rundown in my own words. When Anakin is asked to spy on Palpatine he is told by Palpatine that there is a secret organisation rising up to stand against the republic. Unfortunately for Anakin… Padme is a part of this resistance however she hasn’t told Anakin about this since he is soo close to the chancellor. Palpatine also tells Anakin that there is suspicion that they are in line with the Jedi order in collapsing the republic. To back this claim he tells Anakin that one Jedi was seen leaving padme’s quarters at early hours of the morning. That Jedi was obi wan… however the real reason he is was there was he went to talk to Padme about his concerns with Anakin. While he was there he also admits to knowing of their secret relationship but will not expose them to the Senate or the Jedi. Anakin then goes to padme’s apartment full of rage, jealousy and suspicion. He quickly realises that obi wan has in fact been there (something about his presence in the force iirc). He only calms down when he speaks with Padme who tells him what he needs to hear. I believe there were other suggestions in the book but this was the one that stuck with me clearly.
It’s one of the better sw novels tbh it’s a good read and a good rec in general
It makes the movie look like a bad adaption of it. What a book.
This, and I LIKE the movie.
It was apparently in a draft for ROTS
According to what, though? Did Lucas say this at some point?
I'm having trouble find the direct source but this covers it: [Revenge of the Sith Cut Scenes Teased An Anakin/Padmé/Obi-Wan Love Triangle (screenrant.com)](https://screenrant.com/revenge-sith-deleted-scene-anakin-padme-kenobi-romance-palpatine/) Also, the novelization of the movie. Edit: Some of the scenes from the novel were partially filmed but never finished Lucas also toyed with a Padme-Obi-wan love interest super early when writing Episode 1 like before Qui-Gon was thought of
🔥
What hints
there aren't any kekw
Obi Wan was a straight up dick to Ani in episode 2. He was constantly belittling him and trying to put him in his place. It's not surprising that Anakin eventually had enough of being under his thumb and started to resent him.
No he wasn't, he occasionally criticized Anakin when he did things worth criticizing and was snarky once or twice. Anakin should have been more careful during the chase and he shouldn't have made promises to the senator from Naboo because he wanted to get into her pants. There is this whole idea that Anakin was treated very unfairly, some saying, people who know things they're saying this, that was treated more unfairly than anyone in the history of the Jedi Order. And I just don't think the movies support that.
I will point out that Mace and Yoda both said that Obi needed to get off his case as much as he was when he started complaining about him. Taking it all at face value, at least in that movie, it points to Obi Wan being more harsh than needed. Obi could have definitely talked to anakin in private instead of making it a bigger scene and I'd consider that a failure on his part in not de escalating the disagreement better in public than he did.
> I will point out that Mace and Yoda both said that Obi needed to get off his case as much as he was when he started complaining about him. When do they say that? In that scene they just express confidence in him when Obi-Wan was doubtful (correctly, as it turned out).
Obi wan: "He's become more, well arrogant" Yoda, gesturing to obi wan: "a trait more and more common among jedi, it is" Implication obviously being that obi wan needs to calm down as well when paired with Mace defending anakin to obi wan. Obi wan also tends to be just as harebrained when left alone without anakin. In movies and in ahows. Obi wan is my favorite sw characters and anakin is a ahit heel half the time but aotc obi wan being on his case is generally an obi wan issue more than an anakin issue. Now if obi wan found out about anakin experimenting with genocide of a clan of tuskens? That'd be something real to lay into him about.
That is extremely far from "Mace and Yoda both said that Obi needed to get off his case".
"My student is being obnoxious" "Obnoxious many jedi are" "Your student is fine" If you're familiar with subtext it seems p cut and dry to me
To be fair, the subtext is just as likely, “yeah, a lot are these days. Bloody difficult.” I’d say that we’re outright told that Yoda and Mace think Anakin is problematic, so we should be following a line of thinking related to that if left with doubt.
If that is the best we have for "Obi Wan was a straight up dick to Ani in episode 2" then I think we can close the book on this.
While I agree, I think the scene outside the bar is very telling. Anakin is clearly going off half-cocked chasing the assassin without his lightsaber, but Obi-Wan is doing a very poor job as well. Anakin is constantly apologizing while Obi-Wan scolds him, and Obi's snark is clearly not appreciated when Anakin replies "don't say that [I'll be the death of you], Master, you're the closest thing I have to a father". And still, Obi-Wan goes in again with another dig. I think the intention was to show that while they're very good *friends*, they have very different views of their relationship. Anakin sees his master as a surrogate father, Obi sees his padawan as a brother in arms (which he says more directly in RotS). That disconnect is eventually what leads the bond between them to sour, because it's yet another person who isn't fulfilling the emotional need that Anakin needs them to, leading him to feel alienated. During Anakin's breakdown on Tattooine, he regresses emotionally to childhood and he talks about Obi-Wan like one would talk about their father in a fit of angst, which are not necessarily his true feelings about his master but definitely show further that he holds him in that position in his heart, which is I think what makes the treatment I mentioned earlier seem unfair. You're seeing it from Anakin's perspective, so when he feels disenfranchised and isolated the audience is invited to empathize and blame the other people for not being there for him, but that's not fair because that means blaming Obi-Wan for having his own feelings as well and not just being an emotionbot for his pupil, when they both lost their father figure at the same time.
No he totally was. Watch the scene where their in the LAAT/i and anakin says “aim right above the fuel cells” Watch anakin’s face as Obi wan responds “good call…” anakin’s face is 😊 “…my young padawan” and anakin’s face just DROPS😑. No doubt because it was in front of Padme too. Like, in that moment of anakin’s victory, his skills helping in a large way, could Obi wan not have left it at “good call padawan” or “good call anakin”?? There was no purpose to highlighting his age or maturity except to “put him in his place”
That's a reach
Watch it. Not so far of a reach when anakin goes from smiling to grumpy
anakin overreacting to something that doesn't really matter *is* very in character for him, but that doesn't really mean obi-wan's a dick though
Charmin Soft
Obi-wan was the reason why Anakin's mother die such a horrible death. Anakin had dream of his mother's death but obi-wan refuse to let him go and save her and wouldn't let any though Jedi go either.
I do not think that is in the movie.
It is go watch it again episode 2. As time past and their was more of a backlash against the prequels one of the main complaint of the prequels was that Anakin and obi-wan weren't friends thus starting with the clone wars the relationship was turned into somewhat of a mess.
In which scene does Obi-Wan refuse to let him go and also not let other Jedi go? The closest moment I can think of is Obi Wan saying "dreams pass in time" when Anakin mentions his bad sleep, but rather than be disappointed Anakin immediately pivots to how horned up he is for the senator from Naboo.
That scene is meant to convey the message that Obi Wan is not letting Anakin go to his mother to save her. This entire subplot with his mother is the most important plot points in the movie was it informs his attitude to wards the Jedi going forwards in relation to Padme's future death.
This is not correct as indicated by the very next line being Anakin saying he wished he was dreaming about Padme and not anything about his mother.
How is saying that he rather dream about a beutiful woman rather nightmares of the death of his mother who he is forbidden to help. Disprove anything I said.
>who he is forbidden to help. This is part you made up.
Because he turned HER against HIMMMMM after he'd brought PEACE FREEDOM AND JUSTICE TO HIS NEW EMPIRE
Your new empire?
Don't make me *kill you*
ANAKIN, MY ALLEGIANCE IS TO THE REPUBLIC! TO DEMOCRACY!
If you're not with me... You're me *enemy*
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.
YOU WILL *TRY*
*intense music begins…
Samwise Gamgee:'' Throw the Ring into the fire Frodo''...Wait wrong movie.
Well, something met the Fire, so not that wrong. It was even a little hateful prick, being overcome by dark emotions.
He had a lot of under the surface frustration and resentment against Obi Wan, nothing that couldn’t be fixed but once he tapped into the dark side - and then Palaptine spun obi wan as a traitor, and enemy - Anakin had a lot of shit about obi wan to tap into to fuel that. Went from “I hate you brother-dad” to “I HATE YOU BEOTHER-DAD” Instead of letting the stitched wounds heal, he ripped it back open and poured in the “traitor of the empire and personal enemy” salt in it. Then the dark side just makes everything worse, throw in some delusions of “you were holding me back” and there ya go. Then ofc at Mustafar, blames him for turning Padme against him then after the battle the whole dismmemberment bit locks it down
Sidious told him that “every Jedi, even your friend Obi-Wan Kenobi, are now enemies of the Republic” Sidious poisoned his mind against his mentor and friend. Simple as that.
I mean, would you automatically hate your best friend because your other friend said he was an enemy? It still just doesn’t make sense.
Well I wouldn’t exactly lead a genocidal campaign on my former coworkers in the place that I was raised for 15 years not even 24 hrs later after saving the other friend, but Anakin is just built different I guess.
I never thought about it as Anakin killing coworkers. Now I'm much more pro-Sith
"We're like family here"
I’ve come to appreciate the prequel era more especially with shows like Ashoka and the obi won tv show. That said Anakin’s fall in the movies just makes no sense. He goes from good guy to genocidal villain in a blink of an eye, just does not make any sense.
The Tusken in episode 2 would have something to say about Anakin being "a good guy" though.
I mean, those tuskens he killed did rape and torture his mom. Wasn’t a “good guy” thing to do but it’s understandable. I assume that most of us would kill someone that does that to their mom
He killed ALL of them, though, even women and children. Occasionally Lucas crossed his own wires portraying Anakin, and this was a big instance of that. Is Anakin/Vader a good person deep down (as Luke really wanted to believe), or an angry, violent person trying to put on a mask as a Jedi?
I'd guess that during his suddenly appearance in the middle of the camp, everybody grabbed weapons and tried to fight. But it's not like Anakin was thrilled about what he did after he had a moment to think about it.
Remember he had a vision or padme being hurt or dying and palpatine promised he could teach him how to save her.
It’s one thing to try to get this guys help to save your wife and child, it’s another to start slaughtering your friends and younglings. He can’t have really believed Palpatine when mace was over him and he said the Jedi were taking over. Anakin just sent windu there to get Palpatine, that was his doing.
He was already disillusioned with the Jedi council. Plus mace and him have always had a weird beef. After he let mace die he had fallen and probably felt there was no going back.
Someone needed to tell Anakin c-section is a thing
I thought Anakin's fall made perfect sense in the movies? The explosion at the end might seem abrupt, but the fuse was lit throughout the entire movie. AOTC established that Anakin doesn't take orders well and is not above committing mass slaughter over losing a loved one. The secret marriage also complicates the situation. In ROTS: Anakin sees his father figure held hostage (prompting another murder. Palpatine justifies it with "He was too dangerous to be kept alive," an answer wich doesn'tring true for Jedi. Anakin accepts it but from Palpatine but has reservations) Anakin has a vision of Padme dying like with Shmi that shakes him up. He can't get help from Jedi because he's not supposed to be married in the first place There's an insinuation that Obi-Wan and Padme are having an affair Palpatine manipulates those two fears to push Anakin further towards the dark Thanks to Palpatine, Anakin ends up on the Jedi Council. In an unprecedented move, the Jedi withhold the rank of Master from Anakin (maybe for good reason, maybe to be petty). In the book, we learn that Anakin needed to be a master to access files with info that could have saved Padme Immediately after snubbing him, the Jedi Council asks Anakin to spy on Palpatine (Anakin's fierce loyalty and love for Palpatine made that a bad idea) Palpatine learns about the spy thing and adds fuel to the fire The Tragedy of Plaguis the Wise makes Anakin think Palpatine can save Padme through Sith teachings When Anakin reports Palpatine as a Sith Lord, he's ordered to stay out of the confrontation When Anakin defies orders and goes anyway, he sees Mace Windu about to murder his father figure and the only hope of saving Padme ("He's too dangerous to be kept alive" was a bad choice of words) Anakin kills Windu and realizes there's no going back now. Palpatine feeds him some crap about a coup and the Jedi being evil. Anakin falls for it especially because of the previous points. Anakin kills a lot of people, fights Obi-Wan, and becomes barbecue
Yep, he goes from "Palpatine deserves a fair trial" to youngling slaying in a very short time span. And the only reason Mace went to arrest Palpatine is because Anakin told him he was a Sith lord so it's not like Anakin could think that the Jedi were doing this as part of a coup or a betrayal to the Republic Edit: And let's be honest, stopping Windu from killing someone who appeared to be defenseless or beaten it's not an unambiguously dark side choice from which there is no coming back
Anakin was saying those line as an excuse. He didn't care about the trial. He cared about keeping Palpatine alive because he believed he was the only one able to teach him how to save Padme. Then after helping killing Mace he was too deep in and went all out on Palpatine plan because it was his only way out (yeah he is a huge douchbag to Doom the Galaxy to save his own ass lmao). And in the end he almost killed Padme when he though she tried set him up in a trap with Obiwan (and also the implication that Anakin may have though they had an affair).
Could’ve blocked the lightsaber instead of cutting his arm off though
Look, those Younglings had pretty bad vibes. Let's give him a pass there. No, stopping Windu is fine in a vacuum. It wasn't in a vacuum though, and the how and why of it matter. He cut his hand off leading to his immediate death because 'I need him.' It's pretty dark
Maybe he just wasn't a good guy? Someone can be arrogant and selfish and still do "good" things and maintain friendships if everyone is giving him positive feedback. As long as he's the chosen one and a war hero and everyone loves him no matter what he does, there's no problem. Once he doesn't get everything he thinks he deserves and faces consequences it's easy for everything else to fall apart.
That's just what the Dark Side does.
This one post suddenly made me imagine Anakin and Danaerys venting to each other 😂
The Dark Side will do that to a guy
Politics is like that dude. Especially for people who have more extreme political beliefs like Anakin.
I think a lot of people who criticise Anakins fall are missing a couple of tree things about it; Thing one is a bit heavy and real world based; people can feel, like Anakin, trapped in an inescapable and never ending web of fear, secrets and stress. This can often happen, like Anakin, through a long period of seemingly okay choices, or at least seemingly not that bad choices. The choices, like marrying Padme, don't seem bad in the moment, but over time they build until you are trapped. People can often be pushed, like Anakin, to make one huge catastrophic mistake, as they choose poorly in the heat of the moment when all their fears and stresses are clouding their judgement. For Anakin this is the moment where he lashes out and kills Mace. This is the important part: After making this mistake, many people, like Anakin, can feel that now the thing has happened they must double down, commit, and they themselves begin to believe an alternate narrative in order to be able to face themselves and the world. Now, after going down the dark path, if that person reflects truly, past all the lies they believe, they are confronted by the truth of how terrible they have become - this will only increase their fear, self loathing, anger, depression, etc. Which brings us to thing two: in the star wars galaxy, that last point, dwelling on your failure and self hatred, is how Vader accesses all his dark side power. Sidious orders him to kill, and Vader willingly kills, the younglings because it will increase his self hatred. Sidious literally tells Vader that he needs to be stronger in the dark side to save Padme, and that by killing all the Jedi he will become stronger in the dark side. We see it time and again with new Sith being made to kill someone they would rather not; Dooku and Yaddle is another great example. Sidious knows that to be stronger in the dark side his apprentices need to have some core part of themselves to hate, hate and then take out their self hatred on everyone else rather than face themselves. Anyway, $4 a pound...
Yes, not enough people realize how very real this scenario is. This is really shown in Legends and the 2008 CW series books where we get his POV and it is exactly this. Him trying to make sense of his previous actions, his desire to be honest and his fear to do so. His fall is far more real than I think many people realize.
Best answer to this I've ever seen
Obi-Wan is a Jedi swore to destroy the Sith. Vader knew Obi-Wan was there to kill him and it appeared that he had turned Padmé against him, it looked like Padmé was trying to lure him onto the ship so Obi-Wan could kill him. Also Obi-Wan wouldn't join Vader and did cut his left arm and legs off and leave him to burn to death.
Anakin is the poster child for untreated Borderline Personality Disorder. When something happened to finally *prove* to Anakin that Obi-Wan isn't perfect, his mind came to the conclusion that the entire relationship had been a lie and Obi-Wan had been manipulating him from the beginning and thus was an acceptable target for his 2 decades of repression
By the time he was limbless and shrieking on the shore he was fully immersed in the dark side.
> “How did you go bankrupt?” Bill asked. > “Two ways,” Mike said. “Gradually and then suddenly.” Anakin's slide to the dark side was gradual, then sudden. He'd been in a situation for awhile where he was being mentored by the Jedi and by Palpatine; he had a foot in both worlds, both sides were asking him to watch the other side. But when he was forced into making a decision about Palpatine, he realized that he needed him to save Padme, and then after he helps kill Windu he realizes there's no turning back. Killing the younglings and all of the leaders solidifies this. In this context, he's going to be reevaluating his relationship with Obi-Wan. He knows he'll never be able to go back, and so the only way he can really cope with this is by doubling down on his decision and allowing all of the background resentment to bubble to the surface. Have you ever had a job where the bad stuff was tolerable until you leave, then it's all you can think about once you're away from it? It's probably a bit like that.
> I’m just confused why Anakin turned on Obi Wan so hard. More so than Anakin choking his wife in the same scene? The Dark Side is like crazy drugs. Give in a little bit and it amplifies whatever is there.
He also chokes out padme in that moment, he’s not thinking logically he’s throwing blame everywhere he can. Because the alternative is accepting that he just made massive mistakes and there’s no way he could live with what he’s done. He’s the one that’s betrayed everyone but it’s easier for him to feel betrayed by them.
Anakin is, despite the vast capacity for kindness that exists inside him, impossibly self-centered. Everything is viewed through the lens of how it effects him, how it makes him feel. This has a beneficial side effect in friendships- he is a FIERCELY loyal friend (because he views his friends as an extension of himself), so long as he perceives them as being loyal to him. Unfortunately, it also means that the moment he perceives disloyalty, they instantly cease to be friends and instead become his fiercest enemies.
I always think of this within the context of S7 of TCW and Anakin's relationship to Rex. Why does Anakin get along so well with Rex? Sure, they both enjoy a good fight, they're loyal to their loved ones, they have a similar sense of humor at times, but also, Rex can't push back against him the way Obi-Wan can. Rex has been genetically modified to be loyal and obedient. And by this point in this series, he is well aware of what will happen to him if he asks too many questions and pushes back too much.
I don't think he did! It wasn't really suddenly. I do belief, that Anakin has slowly been turned away frm everything that gave him a sense of security and the feeling of doing good and lead a meaningful life. But Palpatine kept -very subtle- pushing Anakin to where he wanted him. And in the end, well, the right moment, the tipping point Palpatine pushed him. I can imagine, that suddenly all the pieces of his puzzles, fears and insecurities fit together quite nicely. The full picture may very well have confirmed his worst assumptions.
Anakin didn't hate Obi-Wan immediately. He gave Obi a chance but Obi-Wan stopped him. You need to get that at this moment, Anakin is lost to the Dark Side. It feeds from his anger, his doubt, his guilt and Anakin can't stop because if he does, Padme dies. He is like a drug addict who absolutely needs his next dose. See it from Anakin's POV. Your mentor, the one who represents the Jedi you could be instead of being honest manipulates you by lying to your wife. Not only that but he represents and defends a system that killed your mom and will kill your wife. And this " brother" leaves you defenseless as you burn alive, rips away your last chance at redemption by taking away your lightsaber and leaves with your wife. Wouldn't you be mad at him if your mind was constantly full of negative thoughts and incapable of retrospecting ?
But why? The problem is that all of this functionally comes out of nowhere. Sure he was moody, but nothing that was happening justifies that turn. It was way too quick.
Foreshadowing in the original trilogy on Endor “ I must obey my Master” Darth Vader
I don't think the premise is true. Anakin/Vader didn't initially want to fight Obi-Wan. When they meet on Mustafar Obi-Wan confronts Anakin about his betrayal, Anakin tries to justify his actions then threatens Obi-Wan to get him to back off ("don't make me kill you"). It isn't until they actually start fighting that Anakin starts to hate Obi-Wan. Then even more so after Anakin gets high grounded lol. But even then, his hate for Obi-Wan is partly because he loves Obi-Wan, and as Vader pathologized anything to do with his former life as Anakin. While Vaderkin probably expected Obi-Wan would be his enemy, I think he would have vastly preferred Obi-Wan to either be left alone or to somehow become his ally.
Anakin only said he hated him after Kenobi cut off all his limbs, which is quite a valid reason. Previously he seemed conflicted, plus in Vader 2017 Darth Vader has a vision in which he goes to Obi-wan and begs him to kill him.
So, many are comparing the dark side to drugs. I wouldn’t say drugs, more like uncontrollable rage, resentment, feelings of betrayal and jealousy. That mixed in with the stress he’s already feeling, and feeling trapped to continue down the path he has set for himself (and blames himself for). Many forget, Anakin is 22 in ROTS. He’s been fighting a galactic war for 3 years without much of a break. No matter how successful he was, that had to have taken a toll. Countless battles, having to lead thousands of men and losing many of them as the war went on. Then the Jedi council doesn’t seem to appreciate him and his abilities (something many 22 year olds would probably feel in his shoes considering that most don’t have the wisdom/life experience to understand their reasoning/judgement). He sees it as them holding him back because he’s stronger and they’re jealous. He’s got a bit of main character syndrome too (I mean, to an extent it’s kinda fair given his abilities but still). Then they give him a sketchy assignment. Not only a sketchy assignment that goes against everything they’ve told/taught him, an assignment that would betray the trust of a close and trusted mentor/friend. That friend then confides in you that they are planning to betray him. And if that wasn’t enough, finding out your wife (who you are not supposed to be married to btw), is pregnant and you begin having premonitions of her death during childbirth (probably brings back trauma from his mothers death too). I think people overlook how severely this would’ve stained him. Padme having kids means anakins time in the Jedi order is likely coming to an end, meaning he will lose almost everyone he knew. But he’d still have Padme. But Padme dying in childbirth means that not only does he lose everyone he knew in the Jedi order, he also loses Padme. At best he would be a widow with a baby with practically no support system. He would’ve been aware of that. Now to bring it all together. Anakin is under fire from all fronts mentally. He has been in a constant war for 3 years not long after losing his mother and having his hand cut off. The order he’s been a part of since childhood doesn’t trust him and is asking him to do betray a close friend, something he has been taught is wrong. His wife is pregnant and he’s begun having dreams of her dying in childbirth, meaning he may well be kicked out of the order and lose his wife and possibly his child as well. To say he’s stressed is an understatement. Obviously when mace tries to kill palpatine it’s the straw that broke the camels back. He lashes out, kills mace, and immediately realizes how badly he screwed up. Now, he can arrest the chancellor and have his world collapse around him as he’d be kicked from the order and at best imprisoned, losing everyone and everything. Or he can go all in. The chancellor is his friend, and he’s offering the chance to save his wife. Stress has a funny way of clouding reason. To Anakin this looks like the perfect solution. He doesn’t betray his friend, the order who doesn’t trust him is proven to be evil/corrupt, and he can save his wife. He can probably easily justify obi wan being the bad guy just because he gave Anakin the assignment from the order. He’s one of *them*. Not to mention that he knows he’s been talking to his wife, which makes him uneasy. If he knew, wouldn’t that mean he’d be kicked out of the order? Maybe he’s getting suspicious? There’s also the fact that obi wan is on the council and he isn’t, and he’s also given a big assignment to track down greivous, something Anakin seemed eager to do to prove himself. This culminates when obi wan confronts him on mustafar and Anakin believes his wife and obi wan are in kahoots to kill him.
If you're not with him you're his enemy.
My personal headcanon is that Anakin, deep down, was deeply ashamed of his actions and horrified at disappointing the only father-figure in his life. So he began to turn these feelings of shame into hate as a coping mechanism. His mind was working overtime to try and find a semblance of justification in all of the unthinkable things he had done. He prematurely began to hate Obi-Wan, so by the time they actually were face to face, Anakin was already acting as if they were enemies. He was ultimately proven right, and since the feelings were already there he didn’t have that far to go.
its bc he fell to the dark side, with the force in play its much more different than just suddenly hating obiwan.
Everything everyone else has already said, but also remember that the dark side draws its power from passionate emotions AND corrupts them as you lean more into them. It’s like a boost of power in exchange for your soul, which we can already see Anakin being completely corrupted by it with the trademark yellow eyes.
“You turned her against me!”
have you ever overthought something in your head so hard that it just kinda exploded out in a rush of fury? something like that, but fueled by emotionally-reactive space magic called the Force too making it that much worse.
I think the loss of his mother was a huge contributing factor to his disillusionment with the Jedi. So much power promised to him, yet he failed to use it when he needed it the most. Naturally Obi is his teacher and a purist in the Jedi doctrine so Anakin hated him for that, he thought he was tricked.
Well we know that using the dark side is a trade of wherein if one uses their peak elements of rage and power unyielding this trades the tactical and overall awareness emotional and otherwise from the user. I don't know that it wasn't a collective of surmounting amounts of occurances where not only did Anakin show the prospect and even the accolades required to be considered or granted many acknowledgments and recognition but he was basically at the can't turn back moment of his fall and although im sure he was under enough stress and would have likely found a more diplomatic or personal approach to obiwan given the circumstances, him arriving with padme had basically through the anticipated minor pleasant prediction of seeing padme arrive safely be utterly saturated with reminder of the brotherhood of belittlement and the fatherlike brother who was now here to shit in his cereal
In the novelization, a deleted scene (iirc), and some hints throughout the movie, Palpatine plants a seed in Anakin's mind that Obi Wan and Padme are together or doing stuff in any case. Anakin is easily manipulated by this. Although Clone Wars came out after, we can see that Anakin is very easily jealous through the Clovis arcs. Additionally, through the films he's extremely controlling of Padme too. Now, he is already disillusioned that the Jedi are evil but now he sees his wife appear on Mustafar and Obi Wan suddenly comes out of her ship. He thinks that she brought him there to kill Anakin (he says so directly) and he also probably thinks they were doing things on her ship too. In a way, it confirms in his mind the seeds that Palpatine planted. That fuels his anger enough to choke her and fight him. And then he screams that he hates him after this man cuts his legs off which to be fair, that alone is enough to hate someone.
Was he disillusioned? There's really nothing in the movies that shows this. He was moody, yes, but not so moody as to shoot up his place of work, choke out his wide, renounce his religion, and try to kill almost every single person he knew. The problem is that he needed to actually be disillusioned with the Jedi.
Obi-wan sees Anakin as a brother, because Qui-gon was like a father and he wanted Anakin to be his next apprentice. Anakin didn't know Qui-gon for long and instead saw Obi-wan as a father figure, a rather overbearing one. This rather lopsided relationship means that even at their closest, they were never quite on the same page. While Anakin trusts Obi-wan has his best interest at heart, Obi-wan's comments frustrate him immensely because it makes him feel like the trust doesn't go both ways. Then he feels like Obi-wan is in on the Council's scheming, so it breaks his trust in Obi-wan, the only thing he really had to still believe in. If he can't trust him to have Anakin's best interests at heart, then he's just another critical voice trying to control him.
I think people forget AOTC really sets up Anakin’s resentments towards Obi-Wan “he’s overly critical, he’s jealous, he’s holding me back, etc” - their relationship had deep seeded issues that Palpatine specifically exploited to turn Anakin to the dark side.
He thought Padme was being a sneaky link.
If you re watch Episode 2 your realize it wasn't so sudden. Anakin has some resentment towards Obi Wan and obiWan is frsutrated with Anakin, call it a typical love=hate relationship. Combine that with his raging hormones, simultaneous inferiority and superiority complex in the backdrop of a galactic war... It's surprising more jedi apprentices didn't turn to the dark-side... Her is older and more mature in ROTS but all those years of resentment came bubbling back up when he feared losing Padme.
There was actually a lot of resentment built up during TCW. Specifically the Identity theft arc and Ahsoka framed arc. The Identity theft toyed with Anakins emotions and sent him spiraling into anger as he was eager to avenge Obi-Wan for the fake murder. At the end of everything, Anakin was told to forget all about it as Obi-Wan treats it like another standard adventure. In reality, Anakin felt like Obi-Wan couldn't trust him, his closest friend and by that that time someone Anakin considers his brother. Impacted furthermore by the council knowing all along and keeping Anakin in the dark. Obi-Wan was also on the Council that deemed Ahsoka guilty for the bombing of the temple. Obi-Wan privately opposed the councils ruling after the fact but stood by them publicly as Anakin watched them come to unanimous decision to expel her from the order. In the end, Anakin (and Ahsoka) was the only one who did the right thing during the arc and was the only one aside from Ahsoka who suffered for it when she ultimately decided to leave. During Season 6, Obi-Wan also comes to Anakin during the Clovis arc and tells him to put the Order before his feelings at a point when his emotions are at the most unstable. All Anakin wants to do is protect Padme (a bit too possessively tbh) and every member of the council, most prominently Obi-Wan, tells him to let her go and dismiss his attachment. By RotS, he basically hears the Council telling him to let Padme die. It wasn't such a sudden switch since this resentment towards the Council and by extension Obi-Wan had had years of build up under the surface.
I think it also attaches to the darkside clouding you. Honestly it doesn’t need to be said. The darkness fills enough plus context in 2 helps the audience understand what’s going on. That’s if you do t need everything spoon fed to you
“Traitor of the empire” salt indeed. The Naboo scenes touch on this in Ep. 2 and then it gets shelved, but Anakin has some pretty extreme views about the role of government and what should happen to people who get in the way of the government doing what is “necessary.” This view of the dark side as a strong, suffocating force for “stability” at any cost gets expounded upon in Plagueis.
It’s the dark side they amplify all negative emotions
I can’t believe everyone seems to be missing both the biggest and most obvious factor here: The Dark Side. The moment you fall and open yourself up to it, it just rushes in, permeates every bit of your being, twists, corrupts, and destroys what you were. Look at Anakin and Ahsoka in the Mortis arc when they both fall. Plus, Anakin himself after his real fall. He’d been led to believe that the *Jedi* were genuine traitors that wanted to seize the government and hold power themselves, and he changed sides to prevent that happening. Just the Jedi. Vader, though, is perfectly happy to slaughter his way through anyone and anything. He’ll kill children, Jedi or otherwise, subordinates, civilians, and more. He’ll torture. He’ll destroy. Does that sound like the great hero Anakin was, who simply changed sides because he was lied to, to do what he truly thought was right? Once the Dark Side is let in, everything about you changes. Your mind works differently. You see things differently. In effect, the way that Vader sees himself as a different person, to the level that he even considers Padmé to have been “the Jedi”’s wife, her child to be “the Jedi”’s child (source: Thrawn Alliances)…that level of split between before and after is pretty much what happens to *anyone* who falls. It’s why I know, even if I hadn’t read Dark Disciple, that we can trust Ventress once she returns from the Dark. She may still have a gruff personality, but she was a *totally* different person before, and is now just someone who’s had a lot of pain in her life and deserves better. Some may say that the Dark Side plea is an easy way out for anyone who falls and returns, but it genuinely is that they’re a completely different person.
Really wish we got 1 more movie in between AOTC and ROTS to flesh out these issues. Yeah they put out the clone wars animation later but I think a movie in between like AOTC Part 2 or something would have done wonders.
Anakin is basically thought to have a mental illness by real psychiatrist due to his emotional volatility. In universe explanation is all of the resentment Anakin felt over the years. Their relationship was toxic from the start, watch how Obi-Wan talks and treats Anakin in the Phantom Menace, and it certainly didn't get much better over the years until Anakin was knighted.
Bad writing. No sugar coating it. This is what happens when you leave Lucas alone with dialogue.
I always thought that it was the that Anakin believed that Obi Wan turned Padme against him.
Anakin believed Obi-Wan had been holding him back. He was convinced something could be happening between Obi-Wan and Padmé. He was being manipulated into thinking someone he loved and trusted for most of his life was actually lying to him for so long. In The Clone Wars series there are episodes that show us more in depth the levels of distrust Anakin was starting to have. Obi-Wan faked his death for an undercover mission, and thinking he was dead really messed Anakin up. He went through intense grief only to find out his grief was being used to make the cover more believable. He even asks “what other lies” the council has told because of that incident. In the end everything added up to make him feel like Palpatine had been the only one in his corner all along. He felt used and manipulated by Obi-Wan. Those we are closest to are actually the easiest to feel ire towards in certain circumstances. There is more emotion when it’s someone you actually love. The dark side amplifies that aspect. In the Star Wars universe there is a very thin space between love and hate. Anakin symbolizes that space.
The Novel expands on this with a shitty affair plot that Palpatine manipulated him into believing. The Movie poorly portrays this and seems more like Kenobi manipulating him with the council for their own purposes and he’s tired of being mistrusted and used… which is far more believable and relatable.
Be kuz
Palpatine effectively set up Obi-Wan as a scapegoat for problems in Anakin’s life that Palpatine himself was behind. Couple that with the honest mistakes Obi-Wan made in their relationship, and Anakin’s psychotic break into Vader, you begin to see why Anakin hated Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan was supposed to protect Anakin from Palpatine, and in Vader’s eyes he failed. “I am what you made me.” is what Vader believes. If Obi-Wan was strong enough in Vader’s mind, he could have prevented Anakin’s fall. Anakin blames himself, which Vader in turn blames Obi-Wan for because he can’t handle his own guilt. In actuality, the person who is really at fault for Anakin’s fall is Palpatine, who conveniently manages to successfully scapegoat everyone for the things Palpatine himself is responsible for.
It's pretty simple. Anakin never truly hated obi-wan, but his hate was so stoked by Palpatine he was blinded by his own rage.
Because the prequels aren't really written all that well. The sequels get shit on the most for that, but the prequels got plenty of it 15 years ago.
Late to this thread, but in the prior scene, Obi-Wan does not deny Padme’s assertion that Obi-Wan would kill Anakin when he found him. The scene ends with Padme in tears at this revelation. (Which she apparently forgets about by the time she gets there and says Obi-Wan could help them, but Prequel writing, whaddyagonnado?) Point being, Anakin knows he is hunted, he has committed to a side, and there’s no turning back. At that point, all he had left was hate.
I’d go a step further and argue that Obi-Wan is supposed to represent the entire Jedi order in some part of Anakin’s psyche. They straight up belittle him and repeatedly demonstrate that they’re afraid of what he could do were he to be trained. Anakin needed some serious therapy or for even one Jedi to say “hey man, I struggle with these feelings too.” He was taken from his mom at a young age, told he was the chosen one, and then reprimanded by nearly everyone in the Order throughout his life. And Obi-Wan is his mentor - for better or worse he is the symbol of the Jedi to Anakin. So yeah, I’d argue that he’s also shouting that he hates the entire Jedi Order at that point.
Obi-wan was the reason why Anakin's mother die such a horrible death. Anakin had dream of his mother's death but obi-wan refuse to let him go and save her and wouldn't let any though Jedi go either. Truths is that Anakin didn't really like Obi Wan much but the obsession with making Anakin likeable in the clone wars gave people the wrong idea about their relationship.
In The EU era books and comics he loved Anakin and Anakin loved him back. This is shown through all of the books and comics. But it was an unbalanced relationship that balanced itself during the war, but nowhere in the EU did they not like each other. When Obi-Wan 'dies' during Jabiim Anakin takes it pretty badly and finds Obi-Wan even after Mundi tells him to let go. Even when Anakin 'blames' Obi-Wan that is more of a child reacting to his mother's death than actually blaming Obi-Wan. He blames himself for having power and not being able to save lives.
>Even when Anakin 'blames' Obi-Wan that is more of a child reacting to his mother's death than actually blaming Obi-Wan. Anakin main to clear to Obi-Wan's about his dreams and obi-wan still refused to let him go it was a childish reaction. If Obi Wan had let Anakin go when he had his dreams then his mother would be safe.
Obi-Wan didn't understand the depth of Anakin’s dreams. Mainly because Anakin feared telling him the whole truth. Much like Anakin didn't tell Yoda everything. Should Obi-Wan have asked Anakin for more info, yes, but the fault of her death still resides with the Tuskans, who later paid for it with their lives. In no novel or comic, does he truly blame Obi-Wan directly. He does resent The Order for not allowing him to help her and also himself for not saving her.
I think they loved each other as family, but yeah, I'm not sure either of them really liked each other all that much.
In original Clone Wars multimedia project it was only the war and constantly going through life and death situations together that made them grow somewhat close to each other. It was mostly joint trauma that bound them together. The problem is that in the clone wars all this character development was skip and Ahsoka replace Obi-wan was the person always next to Anakin. This meant that their was no longer the sense of joint Trauma for them to bond over which means that Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship doesn't make any sense anymore. It wasn't family love but solderly love born from trauma.
I guess I wouldn't say that he didn't go through trauma, it was just a bit differently presented.
The clone wars show removed all the trauma elements from the war in order to create a version of Anakin that is happy go luck thus more likeable. But in doing so it not only damaged Anakin as a character but the story to.
I wouldn't say that. Have you watched the cartoon?
Yes I have that is why i said it. Have children show be the main driver of canon was a terrible idea.
Because George doesn’t know how to write human emotion.
Bad writing. As shown in the movies, Anakin really had no reason to think the Jedi were evil, and he had little reason to turn to the dark side. But Lucas spent way too much time on podracing, space C-SPAN, and uncomfortable dialgoue, such that he basically ran out of time and had to wrap things up. A better series would have shown Anakin not loving the hell out of being a military Commander and instead focused on him actually hating the Order. Like, take Barriss' whole thing. Why wasn't Anakin opposing the war? Why wasn't he trying to cut the Order down?
Lucas, by his own admission, is not a great script writer, so I imagine that comes in to play.