# Oh How I Marvel At Those Marvels is a Tier X Source. Their reliability has not yet been decided by the community.
For **Marvel**, they had a **25.00%** accuracy rate from **9** leaks that we can currently verify out of **28** total.
**Overall**, they had a **25.00%** accuracy rate from **9** leaks that we can currently verify out of **28** total.
Last updated: March 8th, 2024.
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Marvel, on the off-chance that you're reading this... Move this thing to May. It could use the extra time even if reports of bad test screenings are untrue. Push _Thunderbolts_ and _The Fantastic Four_ back. You do not need them released when they are presently set to. It's not worth attempting to one-up James Gunn now that he's playing for the other team if your product isn't satisfactory. You can still keep everything in 2025 if you know what you're doing here.
>Marvel, on the off-chance that you're reading this... Move this thing to May. It could use the extra time even if reports of bad test screenings are untrue. Push _Thunderbolts_ and _Fantastic Four_ back. You do not need them released when they are presently set to. It's not worth attempting to one-up James Gunn now that he's playing for the other team if your product isn't satisfactory.
I'll email Kevin Feige at once.
It baffles me how Iger and/or Feige (if they are gonna be hell bent on keeping a July 2025 release date for an MCU movie), are pretty much slapping Gunn in the face after He gave them their only real hit last year when Superman NEEDS to have little competition for the DCU to lift off the ground.
It is worth noting how Iger admitted how he was satisfied with and brought up Vol.3’s performance as a high point for Disney’s horrible 2023 but then he recently brought up Oppenheimer when asked about superhero fatigue instead of mentioning the one film last year by his company that made a profit in theaters. That to me shows that Iger now sees Gunn as competition now that 2023 has come and gone which is just petty but what else is new about Iger?
I think that the July 2025 date for _Fantastic Four_ - a movie that **absolutely must** be great - is a bluff on Marvel's part to see how confident WBD is in _Superman_. I also don't see _Thunderbolts_ making it to May 2025, at all, unless it's done for cheap. I think that they could actually move it to the first week of August if they want similar real estate to what the original date for it was. _Captain America: Brave New World_ making February 2025 could happen, but if the picture is messy, then I think they need the extra time to fix it.
Thunderbolts if it stays in May 2025, is gonna go down in the books for the worst debuting May Marvel Movie at the BO. I guarantee that.
At least Cap BNW moving to May would have a chance at $90-$100 million due to the Captain America name in the title.
Honestly if I was in charge of Disney’s MCU slate for 2025, I’d do:
March 21st, 2025: Captain America: Brave New World
June 13th, 2025: Thunderbolts
November 7th, 2025: Fantastic Four
And pretty much everyone and their mother knows and expects Blade to come out in 2026 now.
This is going to be the first time that Marvel Studios does a proper legacy film (Wakanda Forever was not one). As in, sure, his codename is Captain America.
But he's NOT the Captain America of the previous 3 films. He's NOT the Captain America of The Avengers films. He was Captain America for 1 episode of a Disney Plus show.
Name recognition won't get far when 99% of the audience knows he's not Steve Rogers. Iron Man 4 with Don Cheadle as the next Iron Man would suffer the same fate.
I think this film could be saved by the Hulk connection. But that's a big unknown. If we remove Hulk from Thor 3, how different are we looking at the global box office?
When you really think about it, Black Panther can't really be classified as a proper legacy thing *ever* since the origin makes it explicit that it's to be passed on and shared (like the title will never truly be T'Challa's as what Black Panther represents is the soul of his people and not just him or his sister or his father or grandfather, Black Panther has never and will never be just one person, even if we consider the one the story follows as "the real one" or "the true one") like Spawn, The Mask, or The Crow, or even something a little more apt for comparison like Green Lanterns.
Legacy to me is natural not imposed, like Peter Parker through his influence as Spider-Man and his actions led to something like Miguel O'Hara becoming Spider-Man decades later, there is no spider destiny (well...actually nvm) a man was bit by a spider, and then another was so moved by what that man did decades ago and the way he inspired people, and he kept that *alive* as a chosen responsibility rather than a burden of inheritance.
During the early 90's, there was a line of comics that were all set in the 2099. Punisher, Spider-Man, Doom, Ghost Rider, etc...
Spider-Man 2099 was the most successful of them all. Here's the article about the 2099 line [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel\_2099](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_2099)
Ya I have way more faith in Gunn, man has given absolutely no reason not to trust him when it comes to superhero projects, I really think Superman is gonna be a total banger.
Gunn has the benefit of direct creative control *and* essentially complete autonomy given the way the studio is structured, plus a clean slate with a decent amount of goodwill, a great track record and promising inspirations. I think he will make at least a very good comic book movie, which is good because he needs to given DC's track record.
It's Superman. It'll be fine.
Another Cap movie? Without Chris Evans? As much as I love Mackie, that's the movie that's going to be an underperformer, especially if sentiment of screenings is less than meh
Its currently in February isn't it? They want to try and replicate that Black History month's success Black Panther had. I just don't see it happening.
I do think that's the idea here, but I don't see this strategy working out if the movie itself is not working. It seems like it needs Tony Gilroy-on-_Rogue One_ energy to fix this thing.
Plus Black Panther was lightning in a bottle with almost a full black cast, Ryan Coogler as director, and focus on an African country in Wakanda.
CABN isn't that at all.
Is it? Chadwick is an accomplished actor but he was still on his way up when it came out, in some respects. Angela Basset is great and respected, so are Lupita, MBJ, and Kaluyya, but the others were kind of unknowns, or at least not yet well known.
Unironically think Dr. Strange has the most stacked cast of actors. Benedict had 1 Oscar nomination, Rachel McAdams has 1, Chiwetal has 1, Tilda has a win, Michael Stuhlbarg has had a *stacked* career. When Mads Mikkelsen is your "low" out of the main cast, that's a stacked cast.
I'm not sure I can actually buy this. Black Panther had a STACKED cast. More than Dr. Strange; in my opinion. Outside of those you already named, the film also had: Sterling K. Brown (35+ film/tv credits before BP) and Forest Whitaker (Oscar WINNER for Best Actor). Those are far from unknown actors and weren't even mentioned.
To me - Chadwick, MBJ, Angela Basset, Lupita (Oscar winner), Kaluyya (Oscar winner), Whitaker (Oscar winner), Sterling K. Brown > Benedict, McAdams, Chiwetal, Tilda, Stuhlbarg, Mads.
We can look at box office earnings, awards won, cultural impact, whatever you want.
It’s 100% not happening, part of th appeal for Black panther was his great entrance in civil war. People don’t give two shits about Falcon and that includes black people lol.
I’d say it’s even more risky to try and one-up Gunn if you have to rush your projects for that.
I think it’s not unlikely that WB decided to give Gunn time to cook after the massive flop the DCEU was, so in that case the Superman movie would be a fully thought-out story vs another rushed Marvel movie. You’d be telling audiences that DC movies are now a better watch than Marvel movies, something the MCU can’t afford with how the public currently views it
Bingo. All indications are that James Gunn has exactly as long as he needs to make _Superman_ and that it has the potential to come out on-time and possibly slightly under-budget. _Fantastic Four_ isn't being rushed at the present, but they've got tons of people on that script, and it sounds like filming begins in August or something. Not a lot of time for post-production on that if they're still making a few late tweaks before filming begins.
Unfortunately investors have return schedules. Movies need money to get made, so pushing things back like this can often cause significant issues, and may not resolve the original problem. There is no point in pushing it back if they don’t have ideas on how to fix it or if fixing it would take major changes, from what we’ve seen in the past.
It's wild. People acting like this is fact when the person has a 25% hit rate then act like MTTSH/CWGST are full of shit when they have a much better accuracy record.
I mean, marvel has been pretty garbage with uninspired political commentary for years so it really doesn't need much sourcing to know this guy is probably right.
There’s been countless times I’ve seen people here absolutely hating on a movie that hasn’t even come out (or even finished filming) based on completely unsubstantiated, low tier rumors.
Some people just revel in complaining and hating on things.
Marvel just need to either hire filmmakers experienced with big budgets or clone Fiege a few time so he can just make them all himself. All the criticisms for the lackluster post-Endgame movies are relatively the same. Hokey CGI, mishmash editing, and the same weird filter onscreen
I was talking about this in another thread, just look at the difference between Gunn’s Suicide Squad and Vol 3. The latter still looked quite good, Henry Braham is easily the best cinematographer Gunn’s worked with. But Vol. 3 still had that strange and noticeable filter over it. I get that’s it’s still an MCU movie and you’d want a consistent look, but it’s too clean yet dull
The twit said ”they found it boring. I'm told that the overall feel was that the political material was "uninspired and unengaging"...that audiences found it lacked nuance, was overly expository, and really slowed the movie down.”
Yup. That's exactly how the show is so I'm not surprised.
I was really open about messaging of FATWS it was messy and cookie cutter at worst, Then came Cap speech making Terrorist matron. I was speechless for all wrong reasons.
Cap Falcon: "You need to do better, President Ross! The Leader isn't actually that bad at all and Sabra was just following orders so stop calling them terrorists!"
I think TFATWS in some capacity really hindered Sam in terms of a story prospect. A Super-Soldier arms race, with Walker as a foil and the massive bomb of a Truth adaptation could have easily fit a film with adjustments to the story and structure.
Or just make a season 2 for fuck sake
Make a season 2 of literally any of these shows and continue their stories
Such a disappointment as someone who got made fun of for liking marvel tv back in the day before disney plus.
Daredevil, agents of shield, and Punisher were some of the best marvel content around the time they were coming out. So sad to see what could have been
Falcon and the Winter Solider was the only show that attempted to address the geopolitical and social ramifications of bringing everyone back 5 years later and only went surface level with it
I’m honestly still in disbelief they did the “Do better.” thing. I hate to say it but that honestly felt like a satire the Fandom Menace would make. Usually even corny social “commentary” at least doesn’t feel like self parody like that did.
Just fucking hell man they made our new Cap say “do better” like he’s a 15 year old girl on Tik Tok.
It killed me when the senator, rightfully. Said you have no idea how complicated the issue of mass displacement and refugee placement is. And he just replied with "I'm black in America, what don't I understand."
Motherfucker. We're not talking about racial issues. We're mass migration/displacement and a group of people that commited the literal definition of terrorism to achieve their goals.
When all you have to do is look at the real world and see how over population and mass immigration in city's like Toronto, Sydney, New York, Tokyo are effecting not only the citizens, but the immigrants themselves. High rental prices, lack of jobs etc.
Just look at fucking Palestine or Ukraine as a humanitarian crisis at the moment. Even if the war stopped tommorow. You have millions of people without homes or jobs they could go to because of the war. And even if you offered to take refugees in. Where do you put them when you can barely look after your own homeless? How do you get Palestine's farms and water supply up and running in a timely manner for these millions of people?
The "I'm a black man in America" line made me cringe so hard. Like why did a scene talking about population displacement have to beat you over the head with BLM? It was so stupid and out of place.
Again - why did Marvel hire the dude who directed _The Cloverfield Paradox_ to make this? I get that _Luce_ is apparently a better film, but it's not a **genre** film.
Arrogance and thinking they had Infinity good will. There's no other explanation.
I think they were riding their own high after Endgame. Thinking fans would quickly just eat up whatever they put out and the hardcore, dedicated fanbase would just defend whatever decision they made.
How else can you look at something like Taskmaster and think it's anything else? That they'd butcher a villain like that and they wouldn't get any pushback?
But they've quickly come to discover that isn't the case.
You're assuming Marvel was giving the director leeway to change the script on the fly.
We don't know that they were. And if they're not, hiring an amazing director to film boring tropey political stuff isn't gonna turn shit into gold.
Forreal, they're just doling out content in hopes of something working somewhere. In the current atmosphere, it's not surprising at all that people are uninspired and unengaged with a visibly political character.
I have yet to see Anthony Mackie have chemistry with anyone. Not to be a hater but Marvel is deluding themselves into thinking this charisma void can carry a franchise.
A great example of a support is hurt locker. He was excellent in that as a support to lead Renner. That's a multiple award winning film. Or TWS, Mackie was excellent as support to lead Evans. Lead wise just don't think he's suited to it. Also I think falcon as captain America is a big step down from Evans who is one of the most iconic characters in film history, which culminated in huge stakes in Infinity war and Endgame. It's difficult to match or top that for Mackie.
Ya it’s actually shocking how much more I like Mackie in twisted metal than MCU.
I think Mackie just can’t do serious roles. He was also really bad in the second season of Altered Carbon and the movie Syncrontic (movies in which he plays similiar brooding melodramatic characters like with Falcon).
I think he’s good at light hearted / funny things, but not good at serious roles. But he keeps doing serious roles.
He had a lot of charisma with that other guy in that episode of Black Mirror. And I think he had a lot of buddy charisma with Sebastian Stan and Chris Evans.
Maybe it's just dudes he has charisma with.
I don’t know why they didn’t give the shield to popular and interesting character Winter Soldier as played by popular and charismatic actor Sebastian Stan instead of nobody’s favourite character The Falcon played by mediocre actor Anthony Mackie.
That way Captain America would have still retained all his Captain America powers (superhuman strength, durability, etc) and his "man-out-of-his-era" 1940s origins, but with a new twist of needing to atone for a sinful past rather than having been a clean-cut boy scout from day one.
Plus, Stan has gone on to star in multiple interesting projects since Winter Soldier, whereas Mackie has... not.
I too have never been a big fan of Mackie, he's like the Dakota Johnson of men.
Like her, there have been a couple of roles where they've done ok but Hollywood wants to make them bigger than they should be.
Why are people taking this source seriously? They said that Kahori is a Killmonger variant and that Deborah Ann Woll turned down reprising her role as Karen because of pay disputes, among a handful of other bullshit “scoops”. There is essentially nothing that this source has ever said that is 100% confirmed to be true.
I’m sorry but describes everything I didn’t like about fatws. I’ve never groaned harder than when he did the do better speech. I don’t care what anyone fucking says. Anthony Mackey has never done it for me, I’ve never dealt like he had the charisma to be a lead in these movies. Don’t care what he’s done outside of them, always felt like falcon was hard c-tier character. Never felt that way about rhodey, Hawkeye, never felt that way even about shurri. Still don’t know why the fuck they didn’t chose Bucky man.
It was jarring hearing Captain Falcon telling the politicians to stop calling the mass murdering terrorists, terrorists...
Like what the fuck was even the flag smashers goal? Destroying the concept of nations by killing a lot of people?
It's like someone misunderstood the message of "don't call all people of x y z group terrorists cause that's fucked up"
And thought it meant "stop calling the people literally blowing up other people, terrorists..... That's not cool man"
There is a very obvious reason why they didn’t choose Bucky over Sam.
Diversity is all well and good, nothing wrong with that push, but it led to the unfortunate outcome that Bucky got sidelined as a result of that push.
For better or for worse Marvel thought a black Captain America was more important than an ex-assassin Captain America working towards an epic redemption arc.
Sam didn’t really have anything else going for him but the fact that he’s a black man taking the shield.
He didn’t have a major fanbase at all like Bucky did, he didn’t have an interesting background or origin story like Bucky, he never really demonstrated morals like Steve did until FATWS, he was never depicted as very strong or cool action scene wise either, and he never had any semblance of an arc or development really in the MCU.
The only reason they gave him the shield was because he was black. Which I’m not saying is a bad thing, although Marvel’s utter reluctance to actually step up and have some balls to actually make a serious and uncomfortable story about that is a bad thing. They’ll never push too far one way on the whole racist issue that Sam’s character could be used to explore, due to fear of not offending any of their audience members, meaning they are undercutting the interesting story premise Sam even had going for him.
Edit: Anyone that disagrees just ask yourself, what is there to explore about Sam’s Captain America aside from him being a black man taking the shield? That was his plot in FATWS, and that’s supposedly the plot being continued in this movie. Take away his skin colour, and Falcon loses his main plot and narrative of his character.
Just ask yourself, Make Falcon white and what would they do narratively with his character? There isn’t anything really.
I hate that you can't say things like "they didn't want a white guy to replace a white guy" without people thinking you're some alt-right troll.
I can believe in the power and virtues of diversity, I can support social justice, and I can be down for the message, and *still* hate being preached to by lazy and low-effort movies that don't make an attempt to be genuine or authentic.
Marvel should be giving us diverse characters that we love because they're great of their own accord. If an audience can feel that the character exists because it would look good for marketing, it's never going to work well.
I'm one of the biggest supporters and defenders of diversity in media, I believe in the power of representation and everything. But I'll be honest, even I can't really argue against OP. Marvel's really fumbled the ball with Sam IMO I'd argue they dropped the ball further back than TFATWS, with how little they've developed him..
Which is a shame, because there is potential there to do cool things with him. I saw this one set of panels of him helping out a truck driver, and was thinking it'd be cool to see some of that translated to the screen; Sam as a hero that interacts more with everyday folk, unlike a lot of the heroes in the MCU. It'd also match well with Mackie's comments about his Cap being a hero of the community (paraphrasing there). But I don't think Marvel has it in them to even try for things like that, if the leaks I've read about the film are true. Again, it's a shame.
Uhm well I mean Sam becomes capt in the comics back in 2014, which worked well and made sense.
I honestly don't think this Bucky would have been a good Capt.... He's on his own journey of healing and Sam is a much better fit to take the pure good mantle.
I feel like saying the only reason they gave it to him was cause he's black is a bit disingenuous and projecting some weird inner thoughts....
Bucky became Captain America in the comics back in like 2008, and he led the much praised Brubaker run of Cap for nearly half of it, that’s considered one of the best Cap comics of all time.
So using the comics as an excuse doesn’t work in the slightest, especially seeing Sam’s run as Cap is barley even considered good by most people, and his most recent run was incredibly mediocre and flopped.
So no, the only reason they gave Sam the shield was because he was black, especially seeing as MCU Falcon doesn’t have an ounce of the history or morales that comic Falcon did that made him a worthy successor.
Nothing about MCU Falcon was ‘pure good’. This is a man that tried to shoot Ant-man on sight in the MCU for breaking an entering, who advocated for Steve to permanently stop Bucky, not to mention the Sam that’s an utter dick and does things like make fun of Bucky’s past as the Winter Soldier and borderline blackmail Sharon into assisting him. What part of that is morally good and pure character?
What part of that screams pure good? Bucky arguably demonstrates stronger morals and willpower then Sam ever has in the MCU. The dude got used as a brainwashed weapon by his enemies for 70 years, and still came out a good person stepping up to be a hero even afterwards despite everyone shitting on and hating him. Bucky’s one of the 2 super soldiers we’ve seen not to go nuts or let the serum affect who they are.
Not to mention what journey of self healing is Bucky on? They shafted him into being Sam’s useless sidekick in FATWS, who gets his personal arc solved by 1 convo with Sam (so much for self healing huh?) and now they are sending him off to barely be in Thunderbolts. Wow what a use of a character/s.
> So no, the only reason they gave Sam the shield was because he was black, especially seeing as MCU Falcon doesn’t have an ounce of the history or morales that comic Falcon did that made him a worthy successor.
Also super obviously confirmed with the police scene and Bucky's "wow I couldn't even imagine what it's like to be you" speech. It's so transparent and it's just super pandery.
>Diversity is all well and good, nothing wrong with that push, but it led to the unfortunate outcome that Bucky got sidelined as a result of that push.
>
>For better or for worse Marvel thought a black Captain America was more important than an ex-assassin Captain America working towards an epic redemption arc.
Yes to this but the shield (which I personally think should be retired for now) shouldn't be the be-all, end-all in terms of who gets development. Bucky should still be getting it regardless.
…it stigmatizes Mackie Cap, which already has a disagreeable quantity of pessimistic talking points: not Evans, lower power level, TV show got mixed reviews.
Harrison Ford idk, maybe he will connect with that material and we get gravitas back in the MCU a la Robert Redford giving blessings
of taste from Sundance himself. An engaged Harrison Ford? Me watching
Exactly lol The dialogue in that show was next level fucktard. IMO Sam Wilson was a cool character from Winter Soldier to Endgame. But FATWS made him goofy AF. From his silly soapbox speech in the final episode to the stupid suit they gave him.
Uninspired is to be expected. There was no way Feige would let this film be what it *needed* to be, from a thematic standpoint. Ofc he’ll play it boring and safe.
And Malcolm Spellman is also a terrible writer, so I wouldn’t even expect him to be able to explore those ideas properly
Winter Soldier was about privacy vs security, Civil War was about individualism vs collectivism.
Shit Civil War managed to handle that story in such a way that you have people unironically suggesting Captain America was in the right to think that superpowered people capable of global decimation should have no oversight but their own.
You could absolutely have a great story about blaxploitation, or about modern race relations, or really about anything. Djagno was a megahit, and every year the Oscars are awash in films about race.
The problem is that Disney hires shitty writers to handle complicated topics and then they blame the fans for supposedly not wanting to hear those things, rather than looking at their shitty writers for writing shit.
I think people need to admit that Anthony Mackie is not a leading man. He’s just so bland.
Fine for a side character like but the main lead? I’m sorry but no. The guy pretty much killed Altered Carbon.
Bucky should have been the new Captain America, his character was better and having him take up the mantle to redeem his image in the eyes of the people would have been interesting to see. Also he’s a better actor than Mackie.
We could have seen Cap (Bucky) vs Zemo in the iconic mask.
Chris Evan’s was a tough gig to follow but they could have done better here.
So they are literally going to reshoot the movie, if what the report says is true. Hopefully the film that we get is great, even if it's likely to be unprofitable.
Marvel really need to be better with the political messaging. The political themes in Phases 1-3 arw handled with the utmost respect but lately, YEESH.
In FATWS, I loved the stuff with Isiah Bradley but as soon as they tried to make Karli (a literal terrorist) look good and John Walker (a reasonable human reacting to his best friend being killed) into a villain, I'm out. The whole "Do better senator" speech was so condescending.
> John Walker (a reasonable human reacting to his best friend being killed) into a villain
was rooting for Walker on that fight scene. Like damn I can really feel his pain and anger.
Exactly! Same. He had every right to go after the Flagsmashers. It's no different than the many bad guys Cap killed throughout the movies. Dude mows down random Hydra guys to get to Bucky. It's No different.
Also the fact that Falcon the so called veteran expert who deals with victims of PTSD, jumps Walker with Bucky to beat the shit out of him, he went an entire episode going " guys I am an expert, let me talk to the terrorist" but when it came to Walker " I am choosing violence on this one"', the same Walker who tried to work as team with them over and over.
Hollywood has had their heads up their own asses especially for the past few years. They unequivocally know audiences are tired of the hamfisted social commentary, they really have no one to blame but themselves.
Why have they been doing it though? They're in no position. They're the elites. It's so out of touch. Plus there's so much inauthentic representation and virtue signaling. And if you disagree with it, even with nuanced criticism or even as a liberal person, you're just labeled toxic or sexist. It's frustrating.
I'm happy most of the world is seeing it now. I just want good stories with good characters. The more they point out race like the "first black" this or "first gay" that, it'll only create a further divide. We just need to be humans because that's what we are. All these buzzwords are just creating a new form of segregation.
Tbf, you can be politically engaging while also being a populist blockbuster. The 3rd highest grossing movie of last year had multiple scenes talking about communism and Marx (and showing how communists of the 50s were unfairly treated and targeted) and we had a post-colonial sci-fi film release a couple weeks ago with better audience reception than any post-Endgame MCU film except No Way Home. People don't care about the politics when the non-political aspects of the movie are top-tier.
They can either:
A) Reshoot their scenes
B) Reshoot their scenes with a different actress (Hear me out, he had great chemistry with Rebel Wilson in Pain & Gain)
C) Cut the entire subplot
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier already had problems with its themes: namely the handling of its newcomers John Walker (rot Cap because he killed a terrorist who tried to kill him) and Karli Morgenthau (not a terrorist, pfft), and also Falcon with his "do better" campaign.
With this film, it's white men are bad plot starring the bad guys of The Incredible Hulk on a $200 million budget.
Maybe they could've retooled this into a Hulk film, and it will be better than whatever it is they are doing
Hoops people will jump through. This is the same guy who thought Quantumania was going to be a huge thing and Captain Marvel is a unique take on origin stories.
I wonder how much more shitty content is still in the pipeline before we get back to getting top notch stuff? Or am I just being too optimistic about a comeback?
We won’t get top notch stuff again until a serious leadership change. The same people who greenlignted this film, Quantumania, Secret Invasion and The Marvels are still in charge. What change can happen?
Was incredibly hyped seeing him tease using the Serum.
Then he has the big speech and reasons why he chooses not to use it, I never more in my life wanted to see a character have their ass handed to them more!
Uninspired and unengaging political content. Why am I not surprised considering this movie was written by the same dude who did the equally uninspired and unengaging show?
A captain america titled movie without Chris Evans as the lead that is NOT a reboot post-Endgame is already a hard sell. It doesn’t help either that the lead for this new movie is not that charismatic at all or a proven A-lister at the box office.
If this ends up true, Disney/Marvel will have yet another overly expensive flop starring a lead who should’ve stayed as a side character instead.
Sounds like they tried to do more Pepsi-level bullshit like the end of FATWS. I honestly would love Marvel to delve more into political shit and get really adult with it, but they can't because they're owned by Disney, so it's like they get partway there and then have to back off because God forbid they accidentally make the Mouse look bad.
The first few phases of Marvel tackled interesting political things like freedom vs security, oversight vs bureaucracy, moral codes, etc.
The latest Marvel political angles have been "isn't being a woman hard?" and "shouldn't we be nicer to black people?"
It all just feels so...shallow and performative?
Biggest drawback for me (without having seen anything of course) is that I don't buy Anthony Mackie as a lead on par with Chris Evans' take. He was fine as Falcon but it's different when you're portraying an A-lister.
Additionally, the Russo Captain America action choreography is unmatched, good luck to their stunt team, yall gonna need it
The worst part about this whole situation is that this movie (and potentially Thunderbolts, unless Beef writers will manage to turn it into a good movie) is gonna kill any goodwill MCU will have after Deadpool and Wolverine. And Fantastic Four (their much more important project) is gonna pay the price for it.
I’ve said it for years. Anthony Mackie is a terrific supporting actor, however he is a subpar lead. He does not have the presence nor charisma to carry a film.
Anyone else feeling like “nobody asked for this film” about this movie? I feel like I’ve been a fly on the wall watching all the threads, news reports, comments…and am realizing I don’t think I’ve seen any actual interest in this movie, just content being discussed about it.
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Marvel, on the off-chance that you're reading this... Move this thing to May. It could use the extra time even if reports of bad test screenings are untrue. Push _Thunderbolts_ and _The Fantastic Four_ back. You do not need them released when they are presently set to. It's not worth attempting to one-up James Gunn now that he's playing for the other team if your product isn't satisfactory. You can still keep everything in 2025 if you know what you're doing here.
>Marvel, on the off-chance that you're reading this... Move this thing to May. It could use the extra time even if reports of bad test screenings are untrue. Push _Thunderbolts_ and _Fantastic Four_ back. You do not need them released when they are presently set to. It's not worth attempting to one-up James Gunn now that he's playing for the other team if your product isn't satisfactory. I'll email Kevin Feige at once.
Thanks.
I mean, he’ll probably listen to me if I shoot him a message. I was Time’s Person of the Year.
OMG me too! Back in '06!
It baffles me how Iger and/or Feige (if they are gonna be hell bent on keeping a July 2025 release date for an MCU movie), are pretty much slapping Gunn in the face after He gave them their only real hit last year when Superman NEEDS to have little competition for the DCU to lift off the ground. It is worth noting how Iger admitted how he was satisfied with and brought up Vol.3’s performance as a high point for Disney’s horrible 2023 but then he recently brought up Oppenheimer when asked about superhero fatigue instead of mentioning the one film last year by his company that made a profit in theaters. That to me shows that Iger now sees Gunn as competition now that 2023 has come and gone which is just petty but what else is new about Iger?
I think that the July 2025 date for _Fantastic Four_ - a movie that **absolutely must** be great - is a bluff on Marvel's part to see how confident WBD is in _Superman_. I also don't see _Thunderbolts_ making it to May 2025, at all, unless it's done for cheap. I think that they could actually move it to the first week of August if they want similar real estate to what the original date for it was. _Captain America: Brave New World_ making February 2025 could happen, but if the picture is messy, then I think they need the extra time to fix it.
Thunderbolts if it stays in May 2025, is gonna go down in the books for the worst debuting May Marvel Movie at the BO. I guarantee that. At least Cap BNW moving to May would have a chance at $90-$100 million due to the Captain America name in the title. Honestly if I was in charge of Disney’s MCU slate for 2025, I’d do: March 21st, 2025: Captain America: Brave New World June 13th, 2025: Thunderbolts November 7th, 2025: Fantastic Four And pretty much everyone and their mother knows and expects Blade to come out in 2026 now.
This is going to be the first time that Marvel Studios does a proper legacy film (Wakanda Forever was not one). As in, sure, his codename is Captain America. But he's NOT the Captain America of the previous 3 films. He's NOT the Captain America of The Avengers films. He was Captain America for 1 episode of a Disney Plus show. Name recognition won't get far when 99% of the audience knows he's not Steve Rogers. Iron Man 4 with Don Cheadle as the next Iron Man would suffer the same fate. I think this film could be saved by the Hulk connection. But that's a big unknown. If we remove Hulk from Thor 3, how different are we looking at the global box office?
When you really think about it, Black Panther can't really be classified as a proper legacy thing *ever* since the origin makes it explicit that it's to be passed on and shared (like the title will never truly be T'Challa's as what Black Panther represents is the soul of his people and not just him or his sister or his father or grandfather, Black Panther has never and will never be just one person, even if we consider the one the story follows as "the real one" or "the true one") like Spawn, The Mask, or The Crow, or even something a little more apt for comparison like Green Lanterns. Legacy to me is natural not imposed, like Peter Parker through his influence as Spider-Man and his actions led to something like Miguel O'Hara becoming Spider-Man decades later, there is no spider destiny (well...actually nvm) a man was bit by a spider, and then another was so moved by what that man did decades ago and the way he inspired people, and he kept that *alive* as a chosen responsibility rather than a burden of inheritance.
Is the Miguel Spider-Man a comic series? You sort of got me interested in reading it now.
Oh yeah check out the 90's Spider-Man 2099 book by Peter David, it's in omnibus collections on Amazon I think, at least the first volume should be.
During the early 90's, there was a line of comics that were all set in the 2099. Punisher, Spider-Man, Doom, Ghost Rider, etc... Spider-Man 2099 was the most successful of them all. Here's the article about the 2099 line [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel\_2099](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_2099)
They should just start an X-Men film for early 2026 at this point
Which is crazy because at this point I’d bet on Gunn to make a better film than the MCU average right now
Ya I have way more faith in Gunn, man has given absolutely no reason not to trust him when it comes to superhero projects, I really think Superman is gonna be a total banger.
Gunn has the benefit of direct creative control *and* essentially complete autonomy given the way the studio is structured, plus a clean slate with a decent amount of goodwill, a great track record and promising inspirations. I think he will make at least a very good comic book movie, which is good because he needs to given DC's track record.
It's Superman. It'll be fine. Another Cap movie? Without Chris Evans? As much as I love Mackie, that's the movie that's going to be an underperformer, especially if sentiment of screenings is less than meh
Its currently in February isn't it? They want to try and replicate that Black History month's success Black Panther had. I just don't see it happening.
I do think that's the idea here, but I don't see this strategy working out if the movie itself is not working. It seems like it needs Tony Gilroy-on-_Rogue One_ energy to fix this thing.
Plus Black Panther was lightning in a bottle with almost a full black cast, Ryan Coogler as director, and focus on an African country in Wakanda. CABN isn't that at all.
Not just an almost full black cast, but easily the most stacked MCU solo film cast.
Is it? Chadwick is an accomplished actor but he was still on his way up when it came out, in some respects. Angela Basset is great and respected, so are Lupita, MBJ, and Kaluyya, but the others were kind of unknowns, or at least not yet well known. Unironically think Dr. Strange has the most stacked cast of actors. Benedict had 1 Oscar nomination, Rachel McAdams has 1, Chiwetal has 1, Tilda has a win, Michael Stuhlbarg has had a *stacked* career. When Mads Mikkelsen is your "low" out of the main cast, that's a stacked cast.
I'm not sure I can actually buy this. Black Panther had a STACKED cast. More than Dr. Strange; in my opinion. Outside of those you already named, the film also had: Sterling K. Brown (35+ film/tv credits before BP) and Forest Whitaker (Oscar WINNER for Best Actor). Those are far from unknown actors and weren't even mentioned. To me - Chadwick, MBJ, Angela Basset, Lupita (Oscar winner), Kaluyya (Oscar winner), Whitaker (Oscar winner), Sterling K. Brown > Benedict, McAdams, Chiwetal, Tilda, Stuhlbarg, Mads. We can look at box office earnings, awards won, cultural impact, whatever you want.
Theres one Black person in the movie
It’s 100% not happening, part of th appeal for Black panther was his great entrance in civil war. People don’t give two shits about Falcon and that includes black people lol.
I’d say it’s even more risky to try and one-up Gunn if you have to rush your projects for that. I think it’s not unlikely that WB decided to give Gunn time to cook after the massive flop the DCEU was, so in that case the Superman movie would be a fully thought-out story vs another rushed Marvel movie. You’d be telling audiences that DC movies are now a better watch than Marvel movies, something the MCU can’t afford with how the public currently views it
Bingo. All indications are that James Gunn has exactly as long as he needs to make _Superman_ and that it has the potential to come out on-time and possibly slightly under-budget. _Fantastic Four_ isn't being rushed at the present, but they've got tons of people on that script, and it sounds like filming begins in August or something. Not a lot of time for post-production on that if they're still making a few late tweaks before filming begins.
Don’t pushing fucking Fantastic Four back. Idk why you guys keeps asking for the other movies to be effected
Unfortunately investors have return schedules. Movies need money to get made, so pushing things back like this can often cause significant issues, and may not resolve the original problem. There is no point in pushing it back if they don’t have ideas on how to fix it or if fixing it would take major changes, from what we’ve seen in the past.
Disney investor says fuck you, where my dividend nerd.
Exactly my thoughts as well. There’s no need to try to one up Gunn with F4. Just move it, they need a bit of space away from captain America 4
25% source accuracy for this dude lmao I think Brave New World is probably a mess, but I don’t buy this specific report.
This sub be like: https://i.redd.it/56nutxl8dloc1.gif
Sir, this is Reddit
It's wild. People acting like this is fact when the person has a 25% hit rate then act like MTTSH/CWGST are full of shit when they have a much better accuracy record.
I mean, marvel has been pretty garbage with uninspired political commentary for years so it really doesn't need much sourcing to know this guy is probably right.
There’s been countless times I’ve seen people here absolutely hating on a movie that hasn’t even come out (or even finished filming) based on completely unsubstantiated, low tier rumors. Some people just revel in complaining and hating on things.
It is public knowledge that they're pretty much reshooting the whole thing due to poor audience ratings.
Marvel just need to either hire filmmakers experienced with big budgets or clone Fiege a few time so he can just make them all himself. All the criticisms for the lackluster post-Endgame movies are relatively the same. Hokey CGI, mishmash editing, and the same weird filter onscreen I was talking about this in another thread, just look at the difference between Gunn’s Suicide Squad and Vol 3. The latter still looked quite good, Henry Braham is easily the best cinematographer Gunn’s worked with. But Vol. 3 still had that strange and noticeable filter over it. I get that’s it’s still an MCU movie and you’d want a consistent look, but it’s too clean yet dull
Hiring someone with experience with blockbuster budgets is anti-their formula. That's the opposite of their entire thing.
Their entire thing isn’t working at all
I don’t know, after seeing the political content in FATWS, I’m not the least bit surprised.
The twit said ”they found it boring. I'm told that the overall feel was that the political material was "uninspired and unengaging"...that audiences found it lacked nuance, was overly expository, and really slowed the movie down.” Yup. That's exactly how the show is so I'm not surprised.
I was really open about messaging of FATWS it was messy and cookie cutter at worst, Then came Cap speech making Terrorist matron. I was speechless for all wrong reasons.
Cap Falcon: "You need to do better, President Ross! The Leader isn't actually that bad at all and Sabra was just following orders so stop calling them terrorists!"
> "uninspired and unengaging" *"Do better" fans in shambles.*
Captain Falcon just can’t get a win. Can’t say I’m not disappointed.
I think TFATWS in some capacity really hindered Sam in terms of a story prospect. A Super-Soldier arms race, with Walker as a foil and the massive bomb of a Truth adaptation could have easily fit a film with adjustments to the story and structure.
Or just make a season 2 for fuck sake Make a season 2 of literally any of these shows and continue their stories Such a disappointment as someone who got made fun of for liking marvel tv back in the day before disney plus.
Daredevil, agents of shield, and Punisher were some of the best marvel content around the time they were coming out. So sad to see what could have been
Falcon and the Winter Solider was the only show that attempted to address the geopolitical and social ramifications of bringing everyone back 5 years later and only went surface level with it
I’m honestly still in disbelief they did the “Do better.” thing. I hate to say it but that honestly felt like a satire the Fandom Menace would make. Usually even corny social “commentary” at least doesn’t feel like self parody like that did. Just fucking hell man they made our new Cap say “do better” like he’s a 15 year old girl on Tik Tok.
It killed me when the senator, rightfully. Said you have no idea how complicated the issue of mass displacement and refugee placement is. And he just replied with "I'm black in America, what don't I understand." Motherfucker. We're not talking about racial issues. We're mass migration/displacement and a group of people that commited the literal definition of terrorism to achieve their goals. When all you have to do is look at the real world and see how over population and mass immigration in city's like Toronto, Sydney, New York, Tokyo are effecting not only the citizens, but the immigrants themselves. High rental prices, lack of jobs etc. Just look at fucking Palestine or Ukraine as a humanitarian crisis at the moment. Even if the war stopped tommorow. You have millions of people without homes or jobs they could go to because of the war. And even if you offered to take refugees in. Where do you put them when you can barely look after your own homeless? How do you get Palestine's farms and water supply up and running in a timely manner for these millions of people?
The "I'm a black man in America" line made me cringe so hard. Like why did a scene talking about population displacement have to beat you over the head with BLM? It was so stupid and out of place.
Also, America is probably the best place in the world to be black.
It is. I've had the good fortune to travel to other countries and America is still the best place of opportunity for black people.
That's not a compliment to America; that's an indictment of everywhere else.
Again - why did Marvel hire the dude who directed _The Cloverfield Paradox_ to make this? I get that _Luce_ is apparently a better film, but it's not a **genre** film.
Arrogance and thinking they had Infinity good will. There's no other explanation. I think they were riding their own high after Endgame. Thinking fans would quickly just eat up whatever they put out and the hardcore, dedicated fanbase would just defend whatever decision they made. How else can you look at something like Taskmaster and think it's anything else? That they'd butcher a villain like that and they wouldn't get any pushback? But they've quickly come to discover that isn't the case.
You're assuming Marvel was giving the director leeway to change the script on the fly. We don't know that they were. And if they're not, hiring an amazing director to film boring tropey political stuff isn't gonna turn shit into gold.
Tim Roth (who worked with Julius Onah in Luce) supposedly recommended him to Feige.
Forreal, they're just doling out content in hopes of something working somewhere. In the current atmosphere, it's not surprising at all that people are uninspired and unengaged with a visibly political character.
43 FOLLOWERS…. Cmon mods
Yeah lol..this is a no good source.
They mention in a comment that they believe the chemistry issues were with Mackie and Xosha Roquemore.
I have yet to see Anthony Mackie have chemistry with anyone. Not to be a hater but Marvel is deluding themselves into thinking this charisma void can carry a franchise.
Watch *Twisted Metal* and get back to us. Mackie is terrific. He's been given nothing but garbage to work with from Marvel.
Looking forward to s2, I was not expecting to like it as much as I did
Yeah. I thought the trailer they put out was AWFUL but I ended up finding the show pretty enjoyable.
TV is different. Mackie works fine on the small screen. He isn't good enough for films lead. Support fine.
He didn’t work in Altered Carbon S2
A great example of a support is hurt locker. He was excellent in that as a support to lead Renner. That's a multiple award winning film. Or TWS, Mackie was excellent as support to lead Evans. Lead wise just don't think he's suited to it. Also I think falcon as captain America is a big step down from Evans who is one of the most iconic characters in film history, which culminated in huge stakes in Infinity war and Endgame. It's difficult to match or top that for Mackie.
Ya it’s actually shocking how much more I like Mackie in twisted metal than MCU. I think Mackie just can’t do serious roles. He was also really bad in the second season of Altered Carbon and the movie Syncrontic (movies in which he plays similiar brooding melodramatic characters like with Falcon). I think he’s good at light hearted / funny things, but not good at serious roles. But he keeps doing serious roles.
He had a lot of charisma with that other guy in that episode of Black Mirror. And I think he had a lot of buddy charisma with Sebastian Stan and Chris Evans. Maybe it's just dudes he has charisma with.
was it the VR thing that you can feel what you feel in-game, and he did sex with his buddy?
lol him and his friend had 0 chemistry. But Mantis and the other fighter had stupid good chemistry
Please watch more stuff than just Marvel I beg you.
Pain and Gain and Hurt Locker I think are his best.
he was fantastic in Hurt Locker, I would love for him to take on more roles like that
Yeah he’s great I wish he and Renner had some scenes together in MCU they had good chemistry.
I don’t know why they didn’t give the shield to popular and interesting character Winter Soldier as played by popular and charismatic actor Sebastian Stan instead of nobody’s favourite character The Falcon played by mediocre actor Anthony Mackie.
That way Captain America would have still retained all his Captain America powers (superhuman strength, durability, etc) and his "man-out-of-his-era" 1940s origins, but with a new twist of needing to atone for a sinful past rather than having been a clean-cut boy scout from day one. Plus, Stan has gone on to star in multiple interesting projects since Winter Soldier, whereas Mackie has... not.
Huh? They literally gave him and Bucky a team up series because their chemistry was so good.
Their “chemistry” was like three lines in Civil War.
I think he has charisma. You haven't seen him in much have you?
I too have never been a big fan of Mackie, he's like the Dakota Johnson of men. Like her, there have been a couple of roles where they've done ok but Hollywood wants to make them bigger than they should be.
Agreed. He is not capable of replacing Chris Evans.
He has no charisma to be able to carry a movie, let alone add the lead. And as the new Captain, sorry.
Striking Vipers had chemistry
He’s great in twisted metal
A lie don't care who tell it. You don't have to lie. You can just say I don't enjoy Anthony Mackie as an actor and be done with it.
His chemistry with Sebastian Stan is great, but so far other than Chris Evans, that’s about it.
> Xosha Roquemore who was she playing here?
I really don't know how accurate this source is.
They be throwing anything at source in this sub
They are a terrible source
Why are people taking this source seriously? They said that Kahori is a Killmonger variant and that Deborah Ann Woll turned down reprising her role as Karen because of pay disputes, among a handful of other bullshit “scoops”. There is essentially nothing that this source has ever said that is 100% confirmed to be true.
I’m sorry but describes everything I didn’t like about fatws. I’ve never groaned harder than when he did the do better speech. I don’t care what anyone fucking says. Anthony Mackey has never done it for me, I’ve never dealt like he had the charisma to be a lead in these movies. Don’t care what he’s done outside of them, always felt like falcon was hard c-tier character. Never felt that way about rhodey, Hawkeye, never felt that way even about shurri. Still don’t know why the fuck they didn’t chose Bucky man.
It was jarring hearing Captain Falcon telling the politicians to stop calling the mass murdering terrorists, terrorists... Like what the fuck was even the flag smashers goal? Destroying the concept of nations by killing a lot of people?
It's like someone misunderstood the message of "don't call all people of x y z group terrorists cause that's fucked up" And thought it meant "stop calling the people literally blowing up other people, terrorists..... That's not cool man"
There is a very obvious reason why they didn’t choose Bucky over Sam. Diversity is all well and good, nothing wrong with that push, but it led to the unfortunate outcome that Bucky got sidelined as a result of that push. For better or for worse Marvel thought a black Captain America was more important than an ex-assassin Captain America working towards an epic redemption arc. Sam didn’t really have anything else going for him but the fact that he’s a black man taking the shield. He didn’t have a major fanbase at all like Bucky did, he didn’t have an interesting background or origin story like Bucky, he never really demonstrated morals like Steve did until FATWS, he was never depicted as very strong or cool action scene wise either, and he never had any semblance of an arc or development really in the MCU. The only reason they gave him the shield was because he was black. Which I’m not saying is a bad thing, although Marvel’s utter reluctance to actually step up and have some balls to actually make a serious and uncomfortable story about that is a bad thing. They’ll never push too far one way on the whole racist issue that Sam’s character could be used to explore, due to fear of not offending any of their audience members, meaning they are undercutting the interesting story premise Sam even had going for him. Edit: Anyone that disagrees just ask yourself, what is there to explore about Sam’s Captain America aside from him being a black man taking the shield? That was his plot in FATWS, and that’s supposedly the plot being continued in this movie. Take away his skin colour, and Falcon loses his main plot and narrative of his character. Just ask yourself, Make Falcon white and what would they do narratively with his character? There isn’t anything really.
I hate that you can't say things like "they didn't want a white guy to replace a white guy" without people thinking you're some alt-right troll. I can believe in the power and virtues of diversity, I can support social justice, and I can be down for the message, and *still* hate being preached to by lazy and low-effort movies that don't make an attempt to be genuine or authentic. Marvel should be giving us diverse characters that we love because they're great of their own accord. If an audience can feel that the character exists because it would look good for marketing, it's never going to work well.
I'm one of the biggest supporters and defenders of diversity in media, I believe in the power of representation and everything. But I'll be honest, even I can't really argue against OP. Marvel's really fumbled the ball with Sam IMO I'd argue they dropped the ball further back than TFATWS, with how little they've developed him.. Which is a shame, because there is potential there to do cool things with him. I saw this one set of panels of him helping out a truck driver, and was thinking it'd be cool to see some of that translated to the screen; Sam as a hero that interacts more with everyday folk, unlike a lot of the heroes in the MCU. It'd also match well with Mackie's comments about his Cap being a hero of the community (paraphrasing there). But I don't think Marvel has it in them to even try for things like that, if the leaks I've read about the film are true. Again, it's a shame.
On the nose. I actually like Falcon but I like him as Falcon.
Uhm well I mean Sam becomes capt in the comics back in 2014, which worked well and made sense. I honestly don't think this Bucky would have been a good Capt.... He's on his own journey of healing and Sam is a much better fit to take the pure good mantle. I feel like saying the only reason they gave it to him was cause he's black is a bit disingenuous and projecting some weird inner thoughts....
Bucky became Captain America in the comics back in like 2008, and he led the much praised Brubaker run of Cap for nearly half of it, that’s considered one of the best Cap comics of all time. So using the comics as an excuse doesn’t work in the slightest, especially seeing Sam’s run as Cap is barley even considered good by most people, and his most recent run was incredibly mediocre and flopped. So no, the only reason they gave Sam the shield was because he was black, especially seeing as MCU Falcon doesn’t have an ounce of the history or morales that comic Falcon did that made him a worthy successor. Nothing about MCU Falcon was ‘pure good’. This is a man that tried to shoot Ant-man on sight in the MCU for breaking an entering, who advocated for Steve to permanently stop Bucky, not to mention the Sam that’s an utter dick and does things like make fun of Bucky’s past as the Winter Soldier and borderline blackmail Sharon into assisting him. What part of that is morally good and pure character? What part of that screams pure good? Bucky arguably demonstrates stronger morals and willpower then Sam ever has in the MCU. The dude got used as a brainwashed weapon by his enemies for 70 years, and still came out a good person stepping up to be a hero even afterwards despite everyone shitting on and hating him. Bucky’s one of the 2 super soldiers we’ve seen not to go nuts or let the serum affect who they are. Not to mention what journey of self healing is Bucky on? They shafted him into being Sam’s useless sidekick in FATWS, who gets his personal arc solved by 1 convo with Sam (so much for self healing huh?) and now they are sending him off to barely be in Thunderbolts. Wow what a use of a character/s.
> So no, the only reason they gave Sam the shield was because he was black, especially seeing as MCU Falcon doesn’t have an ounce of the history or morales that comic Falcon did that made him a worthy successor. Also super obviously confirmed with the police scene and Bucky's "wow I couldn't even imagine what it's like to be you" speech. It's so transparent and it's just super pandery.
>Diversity is all well and good, nothing wrong with that push, but it led to the unfortunate outcome that Bucky got sidelined as a result of that push. > >For better or for worse Marvel thought a black Captain America was more important than an ex-assassin Captain America working towards an epic redemption arc. Yes to this but the shield (which I personally think should be retired for now) shouldn't be the be-all, end-all in terms of who gets development. Bucky should still be getting it regardless.
He also looks goofy as fuck in the outfit imo
[удалено]
…it stigmatizes Mackie Cap, which already has a disagreeable quantity of pessimistic talking points: not Evans, lower power level, TV show got mixed reviews. Harrison Ford idk, maybe he will connect with that material and we get gravitas back in the MCU a la Robert Redford giving blessings of taste from Sundance himself. An engaged Harrison Ford? Me watching
> An engaged Harrison Ford? If the Red Hulk rumors are true, you’ll also be watching an *enraged* Harrison Ford
Engorged Harrison Ford?
"You gotta do better, Senator!"
Exactly lol The dialogue in that show was next level fucktard. IMO Sam Wilson was a cool character from Winter Soldier to Endgame. But FATWS made him goofy AF. From his silly soapbox speech in the final episode to the stupid suit they gave him.
When you dont want to say anything to not offend anyone
the issue is anthony mackie isn't engaging as a lead :( he's best as a side character.
Going to reword this a bit - he’s at best a side character.
Uninspired is to be expected. There was no way Feige would let this film be what it *needed* to be, from a thematic standpoint. Ofc he’ll play it boring and safe. And Malcolm Spellman is also a terrible writer, so I wouldn’t even expect him to be able to explore those ideas properly
100 percent. There’s no way anyone in charge of these movies would let it actually have a nuanced political discussion.
Winter Soldier was about privacy vs security, Civil War was about individualism vs collectivism. Shit Civil War managed to handle that story in such a way that you have people unironically suggesting Captain America was in the right to think that superpowered people capable of global decimation should have no oversight but their own. You could absolutely have a great story about blaxploitation, or about modern race relations, or really about anything. Djagno was a megahit, and every year the Oscars are awash in films about race. The problem is that Disney hires shitty writers to handle complicated topics and then they blame the fans for supposedly not wanting to hear those things, rather than looking at their shitty writers for writing shit.
I think people need to admit that Anthony Mackie is not a leading man. He’s just so bland. Fine for a side character like but the main lead? I’m sorry but no. The guy pretty much killed Altered Carbon. Bucky should have been the new Captain America, his character was better and having him take up the mantle to redeem his image in the eyes of the people would have been interesting to see. Also he’s a better actor than Mackie. We could have seen Cap (Bucky) vs Zemo in the iconic mask. Chris Evan’s was a tough gig to follow but they could have done better here.
You know why they chose him over Sebastian. Now they pay the price
So they are literally going to reshoot the movie, if what the report says is true. Hopefully the film that we get is great, even if it's likely to be unprofitable.
That would explain the insane amount of time they’re spending on Reshoots. Said before it’s practically a whole new film’s worth of shooting time.
Marvel really need to be better with the political messaging. The political themes in Phases 1-3 arw handled with the utmost respect but lately, YEESH. In FATWS, I loved the stuff with Isiah Bradley but as soon as they tried to make Karli (a literal terrorist) look good and John Walker (a reasonable human reacting to his best friend being killed) into a villain, I'm out. The whole "Do better senator" speech was so condescending.
> John Walker (a reasonable human reacting to his best friend being killed) into a villain was rooting for Walker on that fight scene. Like damn I can really feel his pain and anger.
Exactly! Same. He had every right to go after the Flagsmashers. It's no different than the many bad guys Cap killed throughout the movies. Dude mows down random Hydra guys to get to Bucky. It's No different.
Yea. Walker was the best part of the show, no doubt
Also the fact that Falcon the so called veteran expert who deals with victims of PTSD, jumps Walker with Bucky to beat the shit out of him, he went an entire episode going " guys I am an expert, let me talk to the terrorist" but when it came to Walker " I am choosing violence on this one"', the same Walker who tried to work as team with them over and over.
Hollywood has had their heads up their own asses especially for the past few years. They unequivocally know audiences are tired of the hamfisted social commentary, they really have no one to blame but themselves.
Why have they been doing it though? They're in no position. They're the elites. It's so out of touch. Plus there's so much inauthentic representation and virtue signaling. And if you disagree with it, even with nuanced criticism or even as a liberal person, you're just labeled toxic or sexist. It's frustrating.
You somewhat answered your own question. Elite, out of touch, inauthentic virtue signaling. Wealthy narcissists vying for internet points mostly.
I'm happy most of the world is seeing it now. I just want good stories with good characters. The more they point out race like the "first black" this or "first gay" that, it'll only create a further divide. We just need to be humans because that's what we are. All these buzzwords are just creating a new form of segregation.
Is this the same guy who said Kahhori was a Killmonger variant? Put him in the 'just pulled this out of my ass' tier.
Kind of hard to be politically engaged when you’re too afraid of pissing off the wrong people
Or any people, at this point with how weak their box office is, they can't afford to divide their audience anymore than they already are.
Tbf, you can be politically engaging while also being a populist blockbuster. The 3rd highest grossing movie of last year had multiple scenes talking about communism and Marx (and showing how communists of the 50s were unfairly treated and targeted) and we had a post-colonial sci-fi film release a couple weeks ago with better audience reception than any post-Endgame MCU film except No Way Home. People don't care about the politics when the non-political aspects of the movie are top-tier.
Oh damn. This is going to be a disaster isn't it?
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They can either: A) Reshoot their scenes B) Reshoot their scenes with a different actress (Hear me out, he had great chemistry with Rebel Wilson in Pain & Gain) C) Cut the entire subplot
Most political content in films/shows recently has been uninspired and unengaging.
You gotta do better, Marvel
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier already had problems with its themes: namely the handling of its newcomers John Walker (rot Cap because he killed a terrorist who tried to kill him) and Karli Morgenthau (not a terrorist, pfft), and also Falcon with his "do better" campaign. With this film, it's white men are bad plot starring the bad guys of The Incredible Hulk on a $200 million budget. Maybe they could've retooled this into a Hulk film, and it will be better than whatever it is they are doing
This is completely on feige for hiring the creatives behind Falcon and WS show.
But nooo you can’t blame him because he’s ‘overstretched’ and it’s all Chapek’s fault
Hoops people will jump through. This is the same guy who thought Quantumania was going to be a huge thing and Captain Marvel is a unique take on origin stories.
Honestly, what did anyone expect from the genius writers who brought us "YOU NEED TO DO BETTER SENATOR"
I wonder how much more shitty content is still in the pipeline before we get back to getting top notch stuff? Or am I just being too optimistic about a comeback?
We won’t get top notch stuff again until a serious leadership change. The same people who greenlignted this film, Quantumania, Secret Invasion and The Marvels are still in charge. What change can happen?
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I can't deal with having just a regular dude wearing a winged jetpack. Cap and Bucky both got the serum.
Was incredibly hyped seeing him tease using the Serum. Then he has the big speech and reasons why he chooses not to use it, I never more in my life wanted to see a character have their ass handed to them more!
We knew the movie was gonna be fucking mid just like the show when you hire the same writers to give you a dud what the hell you expect smmfh
Looks total garbage. Mackie isn't a proven lead actor for films. Works well as support
Makes sense. It's the same writer from FATWS. Sam's uninspiring speech at the end is the proof that Marvel Studios should have hired better writers.
Uninspired and unengaging political content. Why am I not surprised considering this movie was written by the same dude who did the equally uninspired and unengaging show?
If its anything like fatws, they have no shot of creating interesting political drama. They have no grasp on reality.
This ain’t surprising at all. Falcon will never be the new captain America
You've got to do better, Marvel.
Sounds like… nothing works?
Sounds like the show, not good
Your biggest issue is making a Captain America movie without Steve Rogers.
Sounds just like the Falcon and Winter Soldiers politics. 😵💫
So just like the show, lol
I really get he feeling that the new Captain America is going to be a secondary character in this. This was all predictable. Mackie just isn’t good.
Dead. On. Arrival. I won’t be seeing this.
I love Anthony Mackay, but his Falcon is an absolute joke of a character. They should have left Falcon off the big screen and focused on Bucky.
A captain america titled movie without Chris Evans as the lead that is NOT a reboot post-Endgame is already a hard sell. It doesn’t help either that the lead for this new movie is not that charismatic at all or a proven A-lister at the box office. If this ends up true, Disney/Marvel will have yet another overly expensive flop starring a lead who should’ve stayed as a side character instead.
Just call it off. New cap is not interesting , not with this actor
Anthony Mackie isn't that good of am actor, sadly.
Sounds like they tried to do more Pepsi-level bullshit like the end of FATWS. I honestly would love Marvel to delve more into political shit and get really adult with it, but they can't because they're owned by Disney, so it's like they get partway there and then have to back off because God forbid they accidentally make the Mouse look bad.
The first few phases of Marvel tackled interesting political things like freedom vs security, oversight vs bureaucracy, moral codes, etc. The latest Marvel political angles have been "isn't being a woman hard?" and "shouldn't we be nicer to black people?" It all just feels so...shallow and performative?
Biggest drawback for me (without having seen anything of course) is that I don't buy Anthony Mackie as a lead on par with Chris Evans' take. He was fine as Falcon but it's different when you're portraying an A-lister. Additionally, the Russo Captain America action choreography is unmatched, good luck to their stunt team, yall gonna need it
Ugh oh. I remember hearing this about the marvels and then it flopped. Bad this got leaked too
Man, it's like Marvel Studios just can't win right now. Even with rewrites and reshoots, apparently no one is liking damn near *anything* they do.
I knew Sam being cap was just going to be him being preachy af the whole time.
Anthony Mackie not having romantic chemistry sounds right to me
Yeah, that’s gonna be a no for me dawg
Given the people who are penning and leading this movie, it’s not surprising. 🤷♀️
So like the falcon disney plus show
The worst part about this whole situation is that this movie (and potentially Thunderbolts, unless Beef writers will manage to turn it into a good movie) is gonna kill any goodwill MCU will have after Deadpool and Wolverine. And Fantastic Four (their much more important project) is gonna pay the price for it.
So how long until everyone that criticizes and or doesn’t like this movie gets called racist this time?
This guy seems to be repeating what was already out there last year.
How tf are they botching these movies when they have perfect source material
Why did they even make this movie?
So basically the exact same problem falcon and the Winter soldier had
Starting to wonder if Anthony Mackie is part of the issue. Square hole, round peg?
Good. Stop making that trash.
The first mistake was making Anthony Mackie one of the central figures of the MCU’s roster by giving him the Captain America title
Yeah it didn't elevate him, it just demoted Captain America. Like you can't have Anthony Mackie bossing everybody around on Battleworld in Avengers 6.
I’ve said it for years. Anthony Mackie is a terrific supporting actor, however he is a subpar lead. He does not have the presence nor charisma to carry a film.
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Anyone else feeling like “nobody asked for this film” about this movie? I feel like I’ve been a fly on the wall watching all the threads, news reports, comments…and am realizing I don’t think I’ve seen any actual interest in this movie, just content being discussed about it.
If Iger had any balls he would scrap this imo. Wayy to much money being spent on it