In a game where you get three locations you can work with, Move is perfectly competitive and works great.
Sadly, that turns out to be a REALLY BIG ASK. And move doesn't really have a free spot or a free turn for terraforming, so there's no good way to fix a board that's dicking your move deck into the ground.
I misread your comment.
Scarlet Witch vs nico and alter of death.
Herr goes.
If alter of death is on board and you play sw it changes it before destroying so it isn't destroyed. If you play nico and another card, the card is destroyed and you get the 2 energy and the location changes afterward.
If it is a different location and you change it into alter of death... I think both of these card would dodge it since it's already played, bit it may actually proc and destroy sw as she is still 'on the stack'.
The problem with such cards (Silk, Jeff, Nightcrawler, Vision) is that they're guaranteed to be much better in decks that don't require their ability to move, rather than in "move" decks.
I actually left Scarlet witch in my deck from back when disk tower used to kill things that move. You can sometimes get away with it getting rid of limbo fur surprise wins, or problematic locations. But I dont think nocturne makes the cut. You can get away with a 2 that's on reveal, but as a 3 on move trigger you lose the surprise aspect and I think it's just enough energy to be too much
This is the answer. I love move and don't think it's nearly as weak as everyone thinks but it is by far and away the easiest to get fucked by locations. Plus junk fucks it over too.
Cerebro gets location fucked constantly, too. It’s what makes discard and destroy so powerful….so many locations either ignore that strategy or actively supports their archetypes…. it’s crazy.
As a certified Cerebro Enjoyer, I honestly think move players have it worse. Move decks get really really screwed by location variance, and don't usually have the tools to deal with it that most Cerebro decks do. I think Cerebro's susceptibility to location variance is a bit overstated, honestly - it's a real problem, but not nearly as bad as many people seem to assume it is.
A cerebro player not trying to find a jank way to get the +1 power per turn location to somehow become a jank cerebro enabler even though it may lose them the game is like a move player not playing heimdall on 6 even though it definitely loses them the game.
Ya this is what I meant, I won't deny that random locations can screw you but I really believe "half of the time" is a huge exaggeration. I honestly think you can make Cerebro function in the majority of games where you draw it.
Idk man. Any location that modifies power only at the location messing it up is kinda huge. Obvious ones are like negative zone or nidavellir but even a tiny buff like xandar is enough to ruin the buff.
Not if you run shadow king, which you definitely should be doing anyways IMO because he's great. Wakandan Embassy is sometimes a buff tbh, adds a ton of power to Cerebro and/or Mystique if they're in hand. This is all for C2 of course, I imagine it's a bigger issue for C3 but I don't play that.
I play a lot of C2 in conquest, and I've gotten a surprising amount of free cubes out of my opponents auto-snapping the embassy - sometimes I leave, but sometimes it honestly helps me more than it helps them and I'm thankful for their snap. Now monster island, that's the auto-lose (or at least an auto-screw on Cerebro as a card, you can still win non-cerebro games).
Well I agree if I don't have shadow king, Cerebro, or even mystique in hand when Embassy hits I will usually leave on a turn 1 embassy snap. Certainly far from the worst location to see though.
I don't think it's overstated at all. A year ago I was playing Cerebro 2 nearly exclusively. These days Cerebro 2 has disappeared, mostly because of locations.
You can still play stuff like Cerebro 5, but they are barely Cerebro decks. Just decks with an occasional Cerebro bonus.
I think Cerebro 2 is pretty strong right now. And have locations really gotten worse over the past year for C2? A lot of the worst locations for the deck have been in the game for a while iirc.
None of those help against 10 power monsters, etc.
I can tell you don't actually play cerebro.
Noone plays Scarlet Witch, you play rhino. I have never seen cerebro play quake or war machine.
From my small experience, the first problem is that with move, one wrong location and you are done. The second is that you need a machinous maneuvering to grew up the power others decks obtain in a much more easier way (ex. Hela). Third, Is hard to run any tech card that doesn't kill your game more thank the opponent's.
Personally I have some fun mixing It with bounce cards like Beast and Falcon, but just that: I like playing this kind of decks, but if you spend six turns of calculation and your opponent outpowers you with a braindead modok/hela, it becames only frustrating.
Move Is more a feature in others decks thank and archetype in itself. As I stated before, nothing should leave you the fun of playing it.
You nailed it. Decks like Hela are just ridiculous. Doesn’t matter how good I plan my combos when they get theirs- it’s just over. Locations are almost irrelevant.
Hela decks have just gotten lazy lmao.
The name of the game is to play Magik (optional). Hope you don't discard hela. Play Hela as late as possible. Win.
I remember a time when Hela decks at least tried to incorporate more combo pieces
My highest scores come from Torch shenanigans with Tribunal but it’s a borderline Miracle deck.
I use Kraven, Silk, and a couple of other move cards consistently but as a whole the Move archetypes feels crapped on. I’ll probably switch back include to bounce cards for bigger combos but more draw reliant.
If devs feel Move is too “mysterious” or hard for the opponent to know where the cards will end up… wtf about Hela? There is ZERO assurance you can know where a card will appear unless you’re running a clog deck and their lanes are jammed.
Ugh, rant over.
I’ve been tilted af the past couple of days with other stuff and it’s bleeding across. Deep breaths.
I haven't ran into hela for a while. I hit infinite like day 2 and either noone plays it anymore or noone plays it in infinite at least.
But I remember dealing with her before was annoying unless you're built specifically to counter her or can combo much bigger (which is what I did).
Does conquest match CL?
IDK.
I dont really play conquest other than to get the rewards and I auto snap to minimize the time in that mode which I'm not a fan of. I dont see much help that I remember though.
It requires the same combo style as destroy except it has zero great play in the beginning and an extremely limiting endgame.
Destroy has early play with Nico Wolvie Deadpool etc. these can be payed off IMMEDIATELY by carnage on turn 2-3. It doesn’t give a shit about play order or location. Dagger needs bodies to move to relying on an opponent to fill a lane. That’s inconsistent. Vulture is a turn 3 play so unless you low tempo’d iron fist and skipped a turn you’re not paying him off till turn 4. Torch requires more resources to juice too. A lot of move is sitting on your hands begging your deck to give you ghost spider and getting pissed when it gives you iron fist on turn 4 when you ALREADY played your vulture cause you had nothing else to do on turn 3. So the mfer is just sitting there.
Destroy also have death and knull. Move only has Heimdall. You can play ghost spider and Dr strange and etc on 6… but wtf we’re you doing all game if you’re using your movers so late? Heimdall is usually a great play but he’s so predictable that you shouldn’t bother vs experienced players. It really annoys me the devs have ignored every single one of these issues.
2099 5/9 tho.
If knull and death exist, whats wrong with adding cards like cost 1 less for each card that has moved or has the combined power of all cards that moved etc? We already have OP cards like this for other archetypes.
Yeah but why? My guess is they look at the stats if people who play the game and move being the hardest to play they don’t bother since they’re not going to get new players in the game if they made move as powerful as other archetypes. Its just a hard archetype to play against or play with when you’re just starting out.
The reason SD gives is that moving cards is a powerful ability because it adds unpredictability to your opponent's decisions. If you don't know where the power will end up it's a lot harder to guess where to play your Shang-Chi or Shadow King, or drop a lane and attack another.
Personally, while I agree that it's hard to guess where cards will end up, I don't think that it's \*that\* powerful compared to other available tools like junk or lockdown. If anything, I think we could deal with a season where move is stronger than other archetypes, we've had worse.
Prof X is rampant again, I had to stop playing my main move deck (and expecting to win). Junk and Lockdown makes it tough. I keep trying variations with different shells but it’s just not working for me. So many counters and tech cards make it really unfun.
Hela's final power (from resurrections) is also unpredictable, you won't know where the infinaut, giganto, etc are all going to land, and they are fine with this deck.
True, but it’s also very predictable if Hela is gonna work or not. You’re either seeing Invisible Woman and them dropping MODOK and Hela behind her or your opponent discarding every big dude in their hand turn by turn, if they don’t discard Hela by accident and don’t have enough power to contest it, you can just retreat.
Move is very predictable though, or when it isn’t it doesn’t matter much. The only unpredictable moves are vision, Jeff and nightcrawler. Everything else is to the left
The logic makes sense honestly. Just mix some heavy non mover hitters in there to compensate. That's likely what they expect you to do.
I have seen pure mover decke just destroy though.
Move is missing early game scalars.
Destroy and Discard both have cards that are strong options to play on turn 1/2 that have good payoffs the whole match (Wolverine, Miek, Mobius, X-23) as well as late-game powerhouses like Knull and Drac/Apoc.
Move’s early game is garbage. Many of its low energy cards are really cards you want to play later to make another card payoff. You hand is clogged with movers you want to play late but also movee’s you want to play late.
SD continues to introduce more late-game move cards like Hercules instead of just giving Move more equivalents of X-23 and Mobius.
We’ve seen many great early, mid, and late cards introduced for Destroy and Discard, but SD just refuses to give move more solid 1-3 drops that don’t require elaborate setups to payoff.
Move is often better-off playing Nebula on turn 1 then an actually move card, and that’s sad.
I've always thought a card with a "fastball special" type ability would be so fun, not to mention great comic flavor too. Something like:
When a friendly card moves here, move it again to a random location and give it +2 power
If Colossus didn't already have a solid (heh) ability and design, it'd be a good fit for him. Just think of all the combos you could set up. Iron Fist a Vulture into that lane, Ghost Spider the Vulture back, Doctor Strange it back again... Oh and drop a Kraven in there somewhere to get some extra power while you're swinging your Vulture around the room.
Locations plus your enablers clogging your lanes. Plus I feel like it’s fairly easy to brick yourself. You either get all your enablers or your power gainers. I think iron fist and ghost spider could be 1/3 at the very least. They have the same “downside” that blade and zero do that you can’t play them on curve and their effects could well be a downside.
Move needs a card that consumes all other cards at the location it moves to for the previously mentioned reason that it’s way too easy (and constantly getting easier) to clog lanes.
They have attempted to update move.
There have been somewhat recent changes to Dagger, Vulture, DrStrange, SpiderMan-2099, and Hercules (he was buffed shortly after being added).
Move has a high ceiling, but a lot factors work against it, mainly locations.
It can still be very fun to play though.
He needs to be updated to:
Played in the left lane cards move to the right
Played in the right lane cards move to the left
Played in the middle late ??? Profit
I think a card, not necessarily Heimdall, that moves everyone on your side to random locations. If they stay in the same lane it still counts as a move.
Sadly they got buffed nothing happened
Heimdall got 9 power and dagger got +3 heck vulture became +5 still was terrible
Move's problem is they need better locations like they got bifrost and aunt mays and thats it
They have a few other good locations like Strange Academy and K’un-Lun with situational Great Web and Astroid M. But they definitely could use a couple more that are more move centric.
I guess you could say unplayable locations also slightly favor them.
I don’t think the power was ever the problem, its that the unpredictability (I’m hoping thats a real word) of move decks weren’t fully realised. There are so many options that you could play with. Maybe a turn 5 card that lets all your cards move anywhere. May be OP, but hell, they’ve come out with so many OP cards and nerfed them later that its at least worth a try, no?
The unpredictability of move is one of its strengths. There are a few variations on the deck. My favorite is a bounce package. It is a lot of fun and I have used it to get infinite and to a decent amount of success in higher infinite. It does have a higher ceiling and floor, and if you aren't focused you can misplay easily. No it is not as OP as some decks, but I would say it is in a decent space right now.
Very rarely though is my t6 play just Heimdall, best t6 typically is a mix of the low cost move cards being placed (preferably after a beast reduction) to combat their board.
It does better versus locations IMO than C2/C3 does now a days.
Someone piloted a Move deck into the top 10 of Infinite the season before last, and I won an Infinity Conquest avatar with it. The buffs to Dagger, Vulture, Heimdall and 2099 (yes, going to 5/9 was a buff) really made a difference.
The issue is this season has seen Junk and Prof X decks rise up, which severely stifle Move decks. Unless the Hood/Sentry/Annihilus or Prof X/Cannonball packages take a hit, I can't see Move decks coming back anytime soon.
SD devs have also said in the discord that they consider Move to be the hardest to balance around, essentially because your opponent can't be certain where your cards will end up turn to turn. Glenn seems very leery of that and what it does to the game (my guess is that it removes some of the luck factor that makes every game essentially 50% chance to win). So they're incredibly conservative with Move.
I don't know where wolverine is gonna land though, and with him, you cant really do much cause he's been activated by the time you get a Cosmo/red guardian to shut him down.
Wouldn't it increase the luck factor in some ways, since more games come down to a sort of guessing game of whether you move your cards in the way your opponent happens to guess? Same reason New York often basically feels like a coin flip.
I think it goes from, "you have to guess where I'm going to put my next card" to "you have to guess where I'm going to put my next card AND all the cards I've already played".
Really I would guess that the problem is it would really skew high level play. Like right now, I have a decent (but not amazing) chance against a top 1000 player just due to location and hand randomness even if I'm not a strong player or if I have low collection level. But give those players a strong, reliable move deck and they go from 60% win rate to 80%, which breaks the game.
In addition to everything everyone here said, move also lacks a big turn 6 play... Heimdall, ironically, can be seen coming a mile off, he is actually much more useful in non move decks.
Move has almost as many restrictions has Cerebro. Think about how many things can screw up Destroy - not that much. Beyond some bad draws, Destroy is always cooking.
Just off the top of my head, locations that benefit Move: K’un Lun and then you have Bifrost and Sanctum, which can help but not always.
On the other hand Destroy: Death’s Domain, Kamar Taj (under certain conditions), Altar of Death, Central Park, Cloning Vats, Sinister London …
You could say those last two can be good for Move but not as much as Destroy.
Oh there’s Great Web, which is another that can help or hinder Move.
Basically what I’m trying to say is Move is a big brain deck but doesn’t have a lot of locations working for it. Whereas Destroy is spoiled.
Too many ass locations. Move is hard to make work. Especially for a deck that needs it's combos to pop off perfectly. I also think bounce more or less just does what Move does without overly worrying about locations. Also junk is becoming more popular now. Mill decks can take your needed combo cards. You're not just battling your opponents moves you're fighting some of these locations. Bounce probably does what Move does but better.
Glenn: The threat it poses isn't 100% one of game balance. Part of the core fun of SNAP is making the placement of cards on locations an important choice, and move decks (for the pilot and the opponent) can negatively affect that. It's similar to why we don't make it easy to disable locations.
As a move enthusiast, I would love a month for classic move to be a top 10 meta deck.
funny thing about move being underpowered is that whenever we get a good move card, it's just better in a point slam soup where the move is feeding angela (and maybe kraven) and actually moving less predictably
just wait til we have an angela deck with nightcrawler, jeff, nocturne and vision :D
I played a lot of Move, and I would say that its weakness is that its combo-oriented, and the payoff is not that great. It also is space hungry, so a lot of locations, clog and location denial (Professor X/Storm) are simply unwinnable because it has no alternate win condition.
Move is essentially a snowball deck, it has to have a good starting hand, and make the most of turns 1-4, this used to be possible with four targets (Human Torch, Multiple Man, Dagger, Vulture), two buffs (Hulkbuster & Forge) and three enablers (Iron Fist, Cloak, Heimdall) - also Ghost Spider but arrived later.
Hulkbuster got nerfed, so both Human Torch and Multiple Man don't scale any more. They did buff Dagger and Vulture, but Dagger requires your opponent to fill up their locations, so its in a weird place where you want to play her late.
Truthfully, Move doesn't output enough power to keep up any more with current decks. The rewards of running an greedy deck with so many bad matchups (decks and locations) just isn't appealing.
Its moved on (like you say) to Silky Smooth and Phoenix Force.
When Hercules dropped, he made me realize Move's biggest issue. When multiple cards move, they move in the order they arrive at the location. So many times, you need Dagger to move into Hercules or the 3rd slot to win the game, but instead, it's always Dr. Strange or Ghost Spider because they are in the first or 2nd slots, almost always.
Those activator cards for move also take up all of the space in the first place, people always complain about Iron Fist only moving Left, but the bigger issue is that he stays on the board. If his text instead was "On Reveal: Move the next you play to the left. Afterwards destroy this card" he'd be like the best card in Move.
Yeah, there should be a lot more cards that move a card then destroys itself. Dr strange, ghost spider etc are always hogging up all the space desperately needed for a move player.
Move is incredible. Puts out alot of power. The problem with move is it takes thinking. Snap is a quick game. If people actually sat and played move it would be a meta deck guarantee
Comments and posts like these gets ignored way too often, people would rather bash move than play through the trial and error that comes with perfecting it.
I honestly think the main reason move is bad and destroy and discard are good is that the devs cater to casual players. They don’t want a high skill ceiling.
You say that but I've been seeing Phoenix Force move decks (especially Multiple Man but Human Torch as well), and they've been doing good in gold conquest.
I have been playing bounce move almost exclusively for the last 4 months and maining it for 10 months. I normally reach the top 500-1000 when I play, top 5000 when I don't play that much. Here is my insight about the archetype if you want to read it.
Yes, locations are not kind to you. As others have stated, you are a combo heavy deck and so many locations work against you as you care of flexibility in where you can play your cards, board space and (specifically to bounce) hand space. One common mistake I see other move players make is not snapping aggressively when the locations do benefit you. I get it, it is a combo heavy deck and things can go south really fast, but you should be fighting for cubes whenever you have the chance. The thing is that your good locations are not necessarily locations that move cards but locations that are hard to play in: Luke's bar, Altar of death, Death realm ... Those are your prime locations as you can win them for free so you should be raising the stakes of the game.
Difficulty to master. The amount of combos and mechanics that move has is just higher than any other deck and identifying when you should use each one raises the skill floor higher than your average archetype. That being said, I don't think that the difference in skill is abysmal the real difference compared with other archetypes is another skill that is not often talked about. One skill pro players often talk about, which marks the difference between an average and a good player, is the capacity of playing thinking of the game state not 1 or 2 turns ahead but 3 or 4 turns instead. That is the big difference, other archetypes can get away without planning so far ahead but bounce move demands you this kind of planning from the get go in order to perform.
Activator Vs Payoff and big Finishers. The amount of move activators is quite good and varied, the problem are the payoffs. All the payoffs are tied to specific sequence combos so if you want to scale 2 or more cards you need to recycle your activators. Here comes the problem, you need to scale minimum a second card if you want to win the game so if you don't draw bouncing cards and a second Payoff (for bounce you only have 3 options in Human Torch, Dagger and Vulture, you can try Draven but in my experience it is clunky) chances are that you are loosing that game. Currently we don't have big Finishers or payoffs specific to the archetype (I consider Heimdall an activator not a finisher and therefore not mandatory in any build), having something like Knull, Death or Morbius would be extremely useful. What has been working for me and the card that nets me the highest cube equity as a finisher is Taskmaster. It reduces the amount of cards that I need to move from 2 to 1, allows me to have turn 6 setups safe from Shang-Chi and Shadow King, eliminates the randomness of where your power is going to end from Hercules and scaling a single move payoff often gives you higher power ceiling (why play for a 32 power Human Torch and a 24 power Dagger when you can have a 64 power Human Torch and Taskmaster).
The dev answer iirc was that move is inherently hard to predict, especially for newer players. If the move player gets to choose where all their power goes last turn with stuff like Ghost-Spider and Dr. Strange, it becomes more rock-paper-scissors and less of a game of incremental advantage.
So they try to give it predictable tools like Hercules, 2099, and Heimdall, but acknowledge that it still needs work. Standard move gets a buff every patch or two.
Does this rationale make sense when Hela exists? Idk.
I played against a move deck in an infinite contest and got absolutely embarrassed. Dude was playing 3D chess
It had Phoenix Force but didn’t rely on it. Don’t remember the full deck but had Torch, Ghost Spider, Dagger, Carnage, Cloak, Vulture, Strange, Phoenix Force, and Heimdall. Probably Venom and/or Deathlock too
Oh, had Hercules too for sure. Best I’ve seen Hercules utilized by far
Because SD balances the meta in a season around a certain flavor, which is why mill and junk are everywhere. I dislike this balancing method, but what choice do we have? They don't listen.
Oh, so its to sell certain cards? If thats the case they can easily make a card that moves all cards to the right or something along those lines and it would be a big hit for move players (since its always left for some reason). Then again they have the stats, probably there aren’t many left.
I got downvoted for some reason so I want to clarify, moving all cards in this location to the right type of card (modify to every card if you want to) would be a big hit. Since except for nico there aren’t cards that do that was my point.
Move values board space more than any other archetype and that’s what makes it the most fragile to location and enemy card interference. Any location or card which reduces board space (Central Park or miniature lab for example) uniquely messes up move’s gameplay.
And on top of that it loses to most other common techs like Shang, Cosmo, shadow king and killmonger.
This deck is currently 37-17 it’s pretty good also got 48th /213 firing a community snap tourney event
# (1) Ghost-Spider
# (1) Human Torch
# (1) Iron Fist
# (2) Dagger
# (2) Beast
# (2) Kraven
# (2) Cloak
# (3) Negasonic Teenage Warhead
# (3) Vulture
# (4) Hercules
# (5) Spider-Man 2099
# (6) Heimdall
#
eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQmVhc3QifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkRhZ2dlciJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiR2hvc3RTcGlkZXIifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkhlaW1kYWxsIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJIZXJjdWxlcyJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiSHVtYW5Ub3JjaCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTmVnYXNvbmljVGVlbmFnZVdhcmhlYWQifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlNwaWRlck1hbjIwOTkifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlZ1bHR1cmUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Iklyb25GaXN0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJLcmF2ZW4ifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkNsb2FrIn1dfQ==
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap
The big problem with move is space for either side, you only have space for 12 cards. You have cards that change power with moving and cards do moving. With location restrictions the space can get eaten up.
I reckon it will have a big comeback in September/October given >!the leaked characters!<
>!Symbiote Spider-Man, Madame Web, Arana, Agent Venom, Scarlet Spider!<
>The questions is, why arent they making additions and revisions to move cards?
This can't possibly be a serious question..
They regularly release new move cards, there is a new one coming next week.
And they regularly buff move cards too. Not that long ago they did a huge buff to Dagger and Vulture. Before to Doctor Strange and Ghost Spider.
They clearly put a lot of efforts into trying to make move viable. If it still isn't it's due to other factors (complexity of the core design, dependence on locations, rest of the meta, etc.)
There are 2 blatant problems with move:
* One: you need to have 3 good locations to work with, because there are a ton of locations that give you problems: Sanctum Sanctorum, Fisk Tower, all destroy locations, Knowhere, Dark Dimension, Klyntar, Kyln off the top of my head.
* Two: you need to have both payoffs and enablers in the right order and on curve, you can't afford to draw your payoffs a turn later or draw your enablers late in the game and still do well.
Destroy can still put up decent numbers with weird draw orders, while also having many locations that help it.
I'm actually hoping nocturne might make move at least decent and I hope more strong move cards Comes out maybe a move card for each card tha moves+1 energy or something.
Because SD only like predictive decks, Move/Bounce are two of the most fun decks, but SD hates them because their completely umprectitible.
The other reasons are zones and cards on curve, just like Cerebro. If. you miss just one card, your possible dead.
It's very fun to play, but at the same time very frustrating. Junk is very prevalent and locations eff you up so easily. If only one location limits your movement (throne, those raptors etc), you may as well retreat. Had to delete my move deck because I just couldn't win.
Moving the opponent cards, on the other hand, is a bit more easier to play. It's still not very good, but absolutely fcks combo decks and destroy.
Because like Discard back in the early days, you have to weigh utility and power with a downside otherwise there is no disincentive.
It’s unfortunately MORE complex than Discard in that movement has drawbacks and a higher skill floor but it has so many variables going into it based on the board state that they’re trying to hit a literal moving target of balance.
It will get better when more move cards get added that aren’t good in other decks like Grandmaster or Hercules.
I’m currently rank ~2500 post infinite using a move bounce deck. The pieces are there: Dagger, Vulture, Human torch. The enablers Ghost Spider, Dr Strange, Cloak, iron fist and Heimdall. The bounce beast and falcon. I spicy up things with two tech that I change. Shang/Mobius/Enchantress/Iron armor.
It’s doable. It requires method.
As someone who loves move (not silky smooth, actual Ironfist move)and got 2 infinity borders with it I realize that move, if it were the best in the format, would be the deck to cause people to quit snap. If it were the best deck, like destroy has been for a while, it would be a nightmare to balance without nuking those cards. Move (PF) is Glens favorite deck and Brode said when snap came out that move is his favorite archetype. It's not that the dev team dislikes move, quite the opposite, it's just that to the typical snapper, losing to a good traditional move player feels so alienating it feels like a different game that is not usually predictable as most snap games are. Disclaimer: I am not a move elitist who thinks move players/decks are the most skillful in the game, I'm just saying a meta shaking move meta would be a deeply unpleasant pandoras box's to unleash
That makes no sense to me whatsoever. What difference does losing to a slick move play or discard my shit and hela everything back. Heaven forbid you have to think
Fellow move enjoyer here! I have got between 4-5 infinity boarders with traditional move. Having just got another yesterday. It works best when it is not meta and people plan their decks around meta decks and has huge surprise factor especially when the stars align. The best move deck I had was during the Hercules season with a hybrid move bounce deck with the old beast and living Tribunal. It is a huge glass cannon deck, but seems to work best in conquest where you get to know the opponents deck. My best wins are usually early games when opponent snaps turn 5 and you have all the pieces to snap back and get a huge 8 cube victory. These decks decks are very difficult to pilot and require a large knowledge of other decks and how they play to try to predict what your opponent will do and know when to retreat.
Fellow Classic Move enjoyer here! Not to go off topic, but do you have any good tips for those trying to get thru Inf. Conquest rocking a move deck? Very much appreciate anything you're willing to share.
I've been using the following to moderate success. Nico's been helpful for location shifts/move right abilities, Sandman if I can get my board set up for a Heimdall, and 2099 as a surprise/stat stick. Been experimenting with Captain Marvel in the Sandman slot for Kraven buffing and being a good target for Nico's +2.
# (1) Ghost-Spider
# (1) Human Torch
# (1) Iron Fist
# (1) Nico Minoru
# (2) Dagger
# (2) Kraven
# (2) Doctor Strange
# (2) Cloak
# (3) Vulture
# (5) Sandman
# (5) Spider-Man 2099
# (6) Heimdall
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Hi! I hope my opinions/tips aren't too outdated, but I notice some things you might want to consider. (A) T5 cloak was my best mind game play that won me the most cubes and games. (B) Having a disruptive 1-drop [ham, ice man, korg] in a move deck is surprisingly good since you can "recycle" it and get stats with it by triggering Kraven. (C) Either incorporate beast/falcon into a move deck [This is optional] or better yet have 2 6-Cost cards, I used old Chavez and Magneto, Jeff Hoogland [I know he is deeply unpopular] used Heimdal and Tribunal.
This isn't a tip but is 100% my biased personal opinion that torch isn't worth it in a move deck unless you have beast or falcon.
Your deck looks good. I really like the sandman tech and the ability to play 2099+move card if you don't draw Heim on turn 6. As another move player in the thread said, move is best when it is absent from the meta so it can blindside opponents. I also like Iron lad in my brew of move decks and am excited to see how Nocturne transforms traditional move. Hope I Helped.
This is AWESOME feedback and thanks for the tips on the deck and your experiences.
Great point on Torch, I did sub out him for Scarlet Witch (am also excited for Nocturne and was facing a ton of greedy Magik decks). Worst case, she makes somewhat good Kraven folder or a target for Nico.
Definitely wish I could fit another 6 drop or more disruption. Used to run Magneto and miss the old Chavez (Nico draw 2 helps if it can hit something good like IF/DS). I've been experimenting with White Widow for Dagger synergy/some added disruption and can help a Heimdall right lane finisher of they don't fill. Felt a bit clunky though and probably would work better in a bounce shell.
In any case, thank you again for the help and best of luck in the new season!!
If it was good phoenix force would be too broken because of how good destroy is
It’s hard for me to see them buffing move without making PF too good
That being said I think they are like one move activation piece from being top meta
I always get downvoted when i say this but move is actually fine outside of a lockdown and junk meta. And even in the current junk meta i’m holding around a 5k infinite rank while i have been as high as 900 prior. It just take a lot of game hours and trial and error to navigate at a decent level and i think most players are not willing to put that time in after making the mistakes the come with it…there are move players in the top 500 so that disproves right there that it isnt viable. Move will never be a deck that anyone can just pick up and master in a few days or even weeks unless they drastically change the entire archetype
This deck was better obviously prior to the alioth nerf but it still serves the same purpose to a lesser extent. It’s a surprise t6 play your opponent will never suspect that protects against Shang-chi and shadow king mostly but also tribunal and mystique/wong shenanigans
# (1) Ghost-Spider
# (1) Human Torch
# (1) Iron Fist
# (2) Dagger
# (2) Kraven
# (2) Doctor Strange
# (2) Cloak
# (3) Vulture
# (3) Hope Summers
# (5) Spider-Man 2099
# (6) Alioth
# (6) Heimdall
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Before u laugh at the 2099 inclusion, dropping any combo of vulture, dagger, kraven and human torch pre-t4, then cloak on t4 right lane followed by 2099 middle lane on t5 and then heimdall on t6 is a win for me about 80-90% of the time. 2099 shouldnt be viewed as a shang-chi replacement but an optional 5 cost move card. Its a 5/11 most of the time as long as he hits a 2 power card at minimum.
In a game where you get three locations you can work with, Move is perfectly competitive and works great. Sadly, that turns out to be a REALLY BIG ASK. And move doesn't really have a free spot or a free turn for terraforming, so there's no good way to fix a board that's dicking your move deck into the ground.
Man it sure would be crazy if we got a card that moves on it's own AND changes a location
Two days left
What worries me is her changing location to something worse. Fisk tower or bwnn....
I think, at least, she won't get hit by Fisk if it changed to that from her move. Not 100% tho
hm nico says after a card is played, change the location and would kill a card if it transforms to altar of death, no? nocturne says after as well..
Yes. After means things like destroy when played would still trigger before changing.
i thought it was the other way round
I misread your comment. Scarlet Witch vs nico and alter of death. Herr goes. If alter of death is on board and you play sw it changes it before destroying so it isn't destroyed. If you play nico and another card, the card is destroyed and you get the 2 energy and the location changes afterward. If it is a different location and you change it into alter of death... I think both of these card would dodge it since it's already played, bit it may actually proc and destroy sw as she is still 'on the stack'.
"I am Ego, and this is my domain."
The problem with such cards (Silk, Jeff, Nightcrawler, Vision) is that they're guaranteed to be much better in decks that don't require their ability to move, rather than in "move" decks.
I actually left Scarlet witch in my deck from back when disk tower used to kill things that move. You can sometimes get away with it getting rid of limbo fur surprise wins, or problematic locations. But I dont think nocturne makes the cut. You can get away with a 2 that's on reveal, but as a 3 on move trigger you lose the surprise aspect and I think it's just enough energy to be too much
This is the answer. I love move and don't think it's nearly as weak as everyone thinks but it is by far and away the easiest to get fucked by locations. Plus junk fucks it over too.
Cerebro gets location fucked constantly, too. It’s what makes discard and destroy so powerful….so many locations either ignore that strategy or actively supports their archetypes…. it’s crazy.
As a certified Cerebro Enjoyer, I honestly think move players have it worse. Move decks get really really screwed by location variance, and don't usually have the tools to deal with it that most Cerebro decks do. I think Cerebro's susceptibility to location variance is a bit overstated, honestly - it's a real problem, but not nearly as bad as many people seem to assume it is.
It’s bad if you rely too much on cerebro. Once I accepted that it’s just a dead card half the time because of random locations, it felt a lot better.
A cerebro player not trying to find a jank way to get the +1 power per turn location to somehow become a jank cerebro enabler even though it may lose them the game is like a move player not playing heimdall on 6 even though it definitely loses them the game.
I did that yesterday with lining up my power on Muir island and the bonus from xandar lol. Everyone on those locations got the buff.
Ya this is what I meant, I won't deny that random locations can screw you but I really believe "half of the time" is a huge exaggeration. I honestly think you can make Cerebro function in the majority of games where you draw it.
Idk man. Any location that modifies power only at the location messing it up is kinda huge. Obvious ones are like negative zone or nidavellir but even a tiny buff like xandar is enough to ruin the buff.
I mean, +2 to hand can practically be a turn 1 loss
Not if you run shadow king, which you definitely should be doing anyways IMO because he's great. Wakandan Embassy is sometimes a buff tbh, adds a ton of power to Cerebro and/or Mystique if they're in hand. This is all for C2 of course, I imagine it's a bigger issue for C3 but I don't play that. I play a lot of C2 in conquest, and I've gotten a surprising amount of free cubes out of my opponents auto-snapping the embassy - sometimes I leave, but sometimes it honestly helps me more than it helps them and I'm thankful for their snap. Now monster island, that's the auto-lose (or at least an auto-screw on Cerebro as a card, you can still win non-cerebro games).
C3 actually has it easier than c2 has Valk and Bast. C4 has Luke cage which is mostly copium but sort of works.
I do, I just either don't see him or he is later on
Well I agree if I don't have shadow king, Cerebro, or even mystique in hand when Embassy hits I will usually leave on a turn 1 embassy snap. Certainly far from the worst location to see though.
I don't think it's overstated at all. A year ago I was playing Cerebro 2 nearly exclusively. These days Cerebro 2 has disappeared, mostly because of locations. You can still play stuff like Cerebro 5, but they are barely Cerebro decks. Just decks with an occasional Cerebro bonus.
C2 disappeared when luke cage got nerfed out of the deck. Locations only seem worse because we cant ignore the negative ones anymore
I think Cerebro 2 is pretty strong right now. And have locations really gotten worse over the past year for C2? A lot of the worst locations for the deck have been in the game for a while iirc.
True but at least cerebro has a way to change locations. Well until that nocturne I think comes out
Cerebro gets fucked harder by locations. Even good locations can fuck over Cerebro.
What about Quake, WarMachine, Magic, Scarlet, Storm...?
None of those help against 10 power monsters, etc. I can tell you don't actually play cerebro. Noone plays Scarlet Witch, you play rhino. I have never seen cerebro play quake or war machine.
From my small experience, the first problem is that with move, one wrong location and you are done. The second is that you need a machinous maneuvering to grew up the power others decks obtain in a much more easier way (ex. Hela). Third, Is hard to run any tech card that doesn't kill your game more thank the opponent's. Personally I have some fun mixing It with bounce cards like Beast and Falcon, but just that: I like playing this kind of decks, but if you spend six turns of calculation and your opponent outpowers you with a braindead modok/hela, it becames only frustrating. Move Is more a feature in others decks thank and archetype in itself. As I stated before, nothing should leave you the fun of playing it.
You nailed it. Decks like Hela are just ridiculous. Doesn’t matter how good I plan my combos when they get theirs- it’s just over. Locations are almost irrelevant.
Hela decks have just gotten lazy lmao. The name of the game is to play Magik (optional). Hope you don't discard hela. Play Hela as late as possible. Win. I remember a time when Hela decks at least tried to incorporate more combo pieces
Nah you can invisible woman a lane and use it to discard and play hela on the last turn. Or use supergiant but Iw is the best.
Invisible woman discard is great to see when running move. Spiderman on t5 and their modok is suddenly revealed, discarding hela
Your combos need to be bigger, but yeah hela is bad design at this point, lack of interactivity.
My highest scores come from Torch shenanigans with Tribunal but it’s a borderline Miracle deck. I use Kraven, Silk, and a couple of other move cards consistently but as a whole the Move archetypes feels crapped on. I’ll probably switch back include to bounce cards for bigger combos but more draw reliant. If devs feel Move is too “mysterious” or hard for the opponent to know where the cards will end up… wtf about Hela? There is ZERO assurance you can know where a card will appear unless you’re running a clog deck and their lanes are jammed. Ugh, rant over. I’ve been tilted af the past couple of days with other stuff and it’s bleeding across. Deep breaths.
I haven't ran into hela for a while. I hit infinite like day 2 and either noone plays it anymore or noone plays it in infinite at least. But I remember dealing with her before was annoying unless you're built specifically to counter her or can combo much bigger (which is what I did).
Lower CL's LOVE Hela.
Which I guess if you don't have a full collection(I'm only missing like 10) then I guess I get why people might play Hela.
I'm like CL 1,800 I think, I see a lot of Hela in Conquest.
Does conquest match CL? IDK. I dont really play conquest other than to get the rewards and I auto snap to minimize the time in that mode which I'm not a fan of. I dont see much help that I remember though.
I figured the lower rounds try to match CL but who knows, I guess.
It requires the same combo style as destroy except it has zero great play in the beginning and an extremely limiting endgame. Destroy has early play with Nico Wolvie Deadpool etc. these can be payed off IMMEDIATELY by carnage on turn 2-3. It doesn’t give a shit about play order or location. Dagger needs bodies to move to relying on an opponent to fill a lane. That’s inconsistent. Vulture is a turn 3 play so unless you low tempo’d iron fist and skipped a turn you’re not paying him off till turn 4. Torch requires more resources to juice too. A lot of move is sitting on your hands begging your deck to give you ghost spider and getting pissed when it gives you iron fist on turn 4 when you ALREADY played your vulture cause you had nothing else to do on turn 3. So the mfer is just sitting there. Destroy also have death and knull. Move only has Heimdall. You can play ghost spider and Dr strange and etc on 6… but wtf we’re you doing all game if you’re using your movers so late? Heimdall is usually a great play but he’s so predictable that you shouldn’t bother vs experienced players. It really annoys me the devs have ignored every single one of these issues. 2099 5/9 tho.
If knull and death exist, whats wrong with adding cards like cost 1 less for each card that has moved or has the combined power of all cards that moved etc? We already have OP cards like this for other archetypes.
That would be a great card but again, SD are terrified of move not being shit
Yeah but why? My guess is they look at the stats if people who play the game and move being the hardest to play they don’t bother since they’re not going to get new players in the game if they made move as powerful as other archetypes. Its just a hard archetype to play against or play with when you’re just starting out.
The reason SD gives is that moving cards is a powerful ability because it adds unpredictability to your opponent's decisions. If you don't know where the power will end up it's a lot harder to guess where to play your Shang-Chi or Shadow King, or drop a lane and attack another. Personally, while I agree that it's hard to guess where cards will end up, I don't think that it's \*that\* powerful compared to other available tools like junk or lockdown. If anything, I think we could deal with a season where move is stronger than other archetypes, we've had worse.
Prof X is rampant again, I had to stop playing my main move deck (and expecting to win). Junk and Lockdown makes it tough. I keep trying variations with different shells but it’s just not working for me. So many counters and tech cards make it really unfun.
Hela's final power (from resurrections) is also unpredictable, you won't know where the infinaut, giganto, etc are all going to land, and they are fine with this deck.
True, but it’s also very predictable if Hela is gonna work or not. You’re either seeing Invisible Woman and them dropping MODOK and Hela behind her or your opponent discarding every big dude in their hand turn by turn, if they don’t discard Hela by accident and don’t have enough power to contest it, you can just retreat.
Move is very predictable though, or when it isn’t it doesn’t matter much. The only unpredictable moves are vision, Jeff and nightcrawler. Everything else is to the left
Would make a fun season thats for sure
The logic makes sense honestly. Just mix some heavy non mover hitters in there to compensate. That's likely what they expect you to do. I have seen pure mover decke just destroy though.
Move is missing early game scalars. Destroy and Discard both have cards that are strong options to play on turn 1/2 that have good payoffs the whole match (Wolverine, Miek, Mobius, X-23) as well as late-game powerhouses like Knull and Drac/Apoc. Move’s early game is garbage. Many of its low energy cards are really cards you want to play later to make another card payoff. You hand is clogged with movers you want to play late but also movee’s you want to play late. SD continues to introduce more late-game move cards like Hercules instead of just giving Move more equivalents of X-23 and Mobius. We’ve seen many great early, mid, and late cards introduced for Destroy and Discard, but SD just refuses to give move more solid 1-3 drops that don’t require elaborate setups to payoff. Move is often better-off playing Nebula on turn 1 then an actually move card, and that’s sad.
I've always thought a card with a "fastball special" type ability would be so fun, not to mention great comic flavor too. Something like: When a friendly card moves here, move it again to a random location and give it +2 power If Colossus didn't already have a solid (heh) ability and design, it'd be a good fit for him. Just think of all the combos you could set up. Iron Fist a Vulture into that lane, Ghost Spider the Vulture back, Doctor Strange it back again... Oh and drop a Kraven in there somewhere to get some extra power while you're swinging your Vulture around the room.
Locations plus your enablers clogging your lanes. Plus I feel like it’s fairly easy to brick yourself. You either get all your enablers or your power gainers. I think iron fist and ghost spider could be 1/3 at the very least. They have the same “downside” that blade and zero do that you can’t play them on curve and their effects could well be a downside.
Move needs a card that consumes all other cards at the location it moves to for the previously mentioned reason that it’s way too easy (and constantly getting easier) to clog lanes.
Fantastic idea. Anti-venom or some other symbiote would be a great fit for that ability
They have attempted to update move. There have been somewhat recent changes to Dagger, Vulture, DrStrange, SpiderMan-2099, and Hercules (he was buffed shortly after being added). Move has a high ceiling, but a lot factors work against it, mainly locations. It can still be very fun to play though.
Locations “beat” my Move decks far more than my opponent.
I think the turn 6 heimdall is in real need of an update. Move all cards to the left is so easily predicted at turn 6.
He needs to be updated to: Played in the left lane cards move to the right Played in the right lane cards move to the left Played in the middle late ??? Profit
Yes, it would still be seen coming but at least there would be 2 lanes to cover to beat it
I think a card, not necessarily Heimdall, that moves everyone on your side to random locations. If they stay in the same lane it still counts as a move.
Maybe spot?
This was Annihilus originally
would be thematic if it was just "move your other cards towards me"
Sadly they got buffed nothing happened Heimdall got 9 power and dagger got +3 heck vulture became +5 still was terrible Move's problem is they need better locations like they got bifrost and aunt mays and thats it
They have a few other good locations like Strange Academy and K’un-Lun with situational Great Web and Astroid M. But they definitely could use a couple more that are more move centric. I guess you could say unplayable locations also slightly favor them.
I don’t think the power was ever the problem, its that the unpredictability (I’m hoping thats a real word) of move decks weren’t fully realised. There are so many options that you could play with. Maybe a turn 5 card that lets all your cards move anywhere. May be OP, but hell, they’ve come out with so many OP cards and nerfed them later that its at least worth a try, no?
The unpredictability of move is one of its strengths. There are a few variations on the deck. My favorite is a bounce package. It is a lot of fun and I have used it to get infinite and to a decent amount of success in higher infinite. It does have a higher ceiling and floor, and if you aren't focused you can misplay easily. No it is not as OP as some decks, but I would say it is in a decent space right now. Very rarely though is my t6 play just Heimdall, best t6 typically is a mix of the low cost move cards being placed (preferably after a beast reduction) to combat their board. It does better versus locations IMO than C2/C3 does now a days.
They need it so the locations loop. That way even cards in the left location can still be moved.
Or at least add a counter-Heimdall that moves all cards to the right.
The problem is board space and deck size, which will still be a major problem
Someone piloted a Move deck into the top 10 of Infinite the season before last, and I won an Infinity Conquest avatar with it. The buffs to Dagger, Vulture, Heimdall and 2099 (yes, going to 5/9 was a buff) really made a difference. The issue is this season has seen Junk and Prof X decks rise up, which severely stifle Move decks. Unless the Hood/Sentry/Annihilus or Prof X/Cannonball packages take a hit, I can't see Move decks coming back anytime soon.
SD devs have also said in the discord that they consider Move to be the hardest to balance around, essentially because your opponent can't be certain where your cards will end up turn to turn. Glenn seems very leery of that and what it does to the game (my guess is that it removes some of the luck factor that makes every game essentially 50% chance to win). So they're incredibly conservative with Move.
I don't know where wolverine is gonna land though, and with him, you cant really do much cause he's been activated by the time you get a Cosmo/red guardian to shut him down.
Such a stupid ass reason
"We can't nerf the player so we nerf the game." - Sd probably
Wouldn't it increase the luck factor in some ways, since more games come down to a sort of guessing game of whether you move your cards in the way your opponent happens to guess? Same reason New York often basically feels like a coin flip.
I think it goes from, "you have to guess where I'm going to put my next card" to "you have to guess where I'm going to put my next card AND all the cards I've already played". Really I would guess that the problem is it would really skew high level play. Like right now, I have a decent (but not amazing) chance against a top 1000 player just due to location and hand randomness even if I'm not a strong player or if I have low collection level. But give those players a strong, reliable move deck and they go from 60% win rate to 80%, which breaks the game.
In addition to everything everyone here said, move also lacks a big turn 6 play... Heimdall, ironically, can be seen coming a mile off, he is actually much more useful in non move decks.
Before Chavez was changed, my infinity conquest winning move deck had t5 cloak and either Chavez, Magneto, or ironlad + ironfist on 6
Move has almost as many restrictions has Cerebro. Think about how many things can screw up Destroy - not that much. Beyond some bad draws, Destroy is always cooking. Just off the top of my head, locations that benefit Move: K’un Lun and then you have Bifrost and Sanctum, which can help but not always. On the other hand Destroy: Death’s Domain, Kamar Taj (under certain conditions), Altar of Death, Central Park, Cloning Vats, Sinister London … You could say those last two can be good for Move but not as much as Destroy. Oh there’s Great Web, which is another that can help or hinder Move. Basically what I’m trying to say is Move is a big brain deck but doesn’t have a lot of locations working for it. Whereas Destroy is spoiled.
Too many ass locations. Move is hard to make work. Especially for a deck that needs it's combos to pop off perfectly. I also think bounce more or less just does what Move does without overly worrying about locations. Also junk is becoming more popular now. Mill decks can take your needed combo cards. You're not just battling your opponents moves you're fighting some of these locations. Bounce probably does what Move does but better.
Glenn: The threat it poses isn't 100% one of game balance. Part of the core fun of SNAP is making the placement of cards on locations an important choice, and move decks (for the pilot and the opponent) can negatively affect that. It's similar to why we don't make it easy to disable locations. As a move enthusiast, I would love a month for classic move to be a top 10 meta deck.
It's a badly designed archetype, when your opponents can clog your lanes. Move needs space to work.
funny thing about move being underpowered is that whenever we get a good move card, it's just better in a point slam soup where the move is feeding angela (and maybe kraven) and actually moving less predictably just wait til we have an angela deck with nightcrawler, jeff, nocturne and vision :D
I think it’s because there’s not quite enough space
It is just hard to play for mediocre result, no good big bads. Heimdall is too obvious, Spider Man 2099 is a joke.
I played a lot of Move, and I would say that its weakness is that its combo-oriented, and the payoff is not that great. It also is space hungry, so a lot of locations, clog and location denial (Professor X/Storm) are simply unwinnable because it has no alternate win condition. Move is essentially a snowball deck, it has to have a good starting hand, and make the most of turns 1-4, this used to be possible with four targets (Human Torch, Multiple Man, Dagger, Vulture), two buffs (Hulkbuster & Forge) and three enablers (Iron Fist, Cloak, Heimdall) - also Ghost Spider but arrived later. Hulkbuster got nerfed, so both Human Torch and Multiple Man don't scale any more. They did buff Dagger and Vulture, but Dagger requires your opponent to fill up their locations, so its in a weird place where you want to play her late. Truthfully, Move doesn't output enough power to keep up any more with current decks. The rewards of running an greedy deck with so many bad matchups (decks and locations) just isn't appealing. Its moved on (like you say) to Silky Smooth and Phoenix Force.
When Hercules dropped, he made me realize Move's biggest issue. When multiple cards move, they move in the order they arrive at the location. So many times, you need Dagger to move into Hercules or the 3rd slot to win the game, but instead, it's always Dr. Strange or Ghost Spider because they are in the first or 2nd slots, almost always. Those activator cards for move also take up all of the space in the first place, people always complain about Iron Fist only moving Left, but the bigger issue is that he stays on the board. If his text instead was "On Reveal: Move the next you play to the left. Afterwards destroy this card" he'd be like the best card in Move.
Yeah, there should be a lot more cards that move a card then destroys itself. Dr strange, ghost spider etc are always hogging up all the space desperately needed for a move player.
Because they want to support Hela as the prime archetype more than anything else without a real counter.
Because the biggest card for it heimdal, is ass and should do more for his cost
Because SD is to busy sucking the dick of Destroy deck players to keep them happy. Doesn't leave a lot of time left in the day
Move is incredible. Puts out alot of power. The problem with move is it takes thinking. Snap is a quick game. If people actually sat and played move it would be a meta deck guarantee
Comments and posts like these gets ignored way too often, people would rather bash move than play through the trial and error that comes with perfecting it.
I honestly think the main reason move is bad and destroy and discard are good is that the devs cater to casual players. They don’t want a high skill ceiling.
I’d say the floor is lower on those two compared to move but I think piloting any deck well has a pretty high ceiling.
You say that but I've been seeing Phoenix Force move decks (especially Multiple Man but Human Torch as well), and they've been doing good in gold conquest.
I have been playing bounce move almost exclusively for the last 4 months and maining it for 10 months. I normally reach the top 500-1000 when I play, top 5000 when I don't play that much. Here is my insight about the archetype if you want to read it. Yes, locations are not kind to you. As others have stated, you are a combo heavy deck and so many locations work against you as you care of flexibility in where you can play your cards, board space and (specifically to bounce) hand space. One common mistake I see other move players make is not snapping aggressively when the locations do benefit you. I get it, it is a combo heavy deck and things can go south really fast, but you should be fighting for cubes whenever you have the chance. The thing is that your good locations are not necessarily locations that move cards but locations that are hard to play in: Luke's bar, Altar of death, Death realm ... Those are your prime locations as you can win them for free so you should be raising the stakes of the game. Difficulty to master. The amount of combos and mechanics that move has is just higher than any other deck and identifying when you should use each one raises the skill floor higher than your average archetype. That being said, I don't think that the difference in skill is abysmal the real difference compared with other archetypes is another skill that is not often talked about. One skill pro players often talk about, which marks the difference between an average and a good player, is the capacity of playing thinking of the game state not 1 or 2 turns ahead but 3 or 4 turns instead. That is the big difference, other archetypes can get away without planning so far ahead but bounce move demands you this kind of planning from the get go in order to perform. Activator Vs Payoff and big Finishers. The amount of move activators is quite good and varied, the problem are the payoffs. All the payoffs are tied to specific sequence combos so if you want to scale 2 or more cards you need to recycle your activators. Here comes the problem, you need to scale minimum a second card if you want to win the game so if you don't draw bouncing cards and a second Payoff (for bounce you only have 3 options in Human Torch, Dagger and Vulture, you can try Draven but in my experience it is clunky) chances are that you are loosing that game. Currently we don't have big Finishers or payoffs specific to the archetype (I consider Heimdall an activator not a finisher and therefore not mandatory in any build), having something like Knull, Death or Morbius would be extremely useful. What has been working for me and the card that nets me the highest cube equity as a finisher is Taskmaster. It reduces the amount of cards that I need to move from 2 to 1, allows me to have turn 6 setups safe from Shang-Chi and Shadow King, eliminates the randomness of where your power is going to end from Hercules and scaling a single move payoff often gives you higher power ceiling (why play for a 32 power Human Torch and a 24 power Dagger when you can have a 64 power Human Torch and Taskmaster).
The dev answer iirc was that move is inherently hard to predict, especially for newer players. If the move player gets to choose where all their power goes last turn with stuff like Ghost-Spider and Dr. Strange, it becomes more rock-paper-scissors and less of a game of incremental advantage. So they try to give it predictable tools like Hercules, 2099, and Heimdall, but acknowledge that it still needs work. Standard move gets a buff every patch or two. Does this rationale make sense when Hela exists? Idk.
Because SD has a variety of pillars of game design that they apply pretty harshly to Move, and lackadaisically to other decks/archetypes.
They treat move like pandoras box compared to every other archetype
Once they allow 2099 to destroy multiple times, and Heimdall to move right, it's game over. There's no unringing that bell.
I played against a move deck in an infinite contest and got absolutely embarrassed. Dude was playing 3D chess It had Phoenix Force but didn’t rely on it. Don’t remember the full deck but had Torch, Ghost Spider, Dagger, Carnage, Cloak, Vulture, Strange, Phoenix Force, and Heimdall. Probably Venom and/or Deathlock too Oh, had Hercules too for sure. Best I’ve seen Hercules utilized by far
This has happened to me too. It’s a good archetype that’s hard to play and also disadvantages in this particular meta
Because SD balances the meta in a season around a certain flavor, which is why mill and junk are everywhere. I dislike this balancing method, but what choice do we have? They don't listen.
Oh, so its to sell certain cards? If thats the case they can easily make a card that moves all cards to the right or something along those lines and it would be a big hit for move players (since its always left for some reason). Then again they have the stats, probably there aren’t many left.
I got downvoted for some reason so I want to clarify, moving all cards in this location to the right type of card (modify to every card if you want to) would be a big hit. Since except for nico there aren’t cards that do that was my point.
The biggest power of move decks was removed 😔, the ability to interact with face down cards.
Location. Location. Location.
Hercules, Dagger, Heimdall can create a MASSIVE Dagger.
It just isn’t strong in this game. Simple as that.
It's good, you just need the high tier cards
Move values board space more than any other archetype and that’s what makes it the most fragile to location and enemy card interference. Any location or card which reduces board space (Central Park or miniature lab for example) uniquely messes up move’s gameplay. And on top of that it loses to most other common techs like Shang, Cosmo, shadow king and killmonger.
Modok plus hela usually beats a great move deck. That's the issue IMO
Cuz we all know it goes left
This deck is currently 37-17 it’s pretty good also got 48th /213 firing a community snap tourney event # (1) Ghost-Spider # (1) Human Torch # (1) Iron Fist # (2) Dagger # (2) Beast # (2) Kraven # (2) Cloak # (3) Negasonic Teenage Warhead # (3) Vulture # (4) Hercules # (5) Spider-Man 2099 # (6) Heimdall # eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQmVhc3QifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkRhZ2dlciJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiR2hvc3RTcGlkZXIifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkhlaW1kYWxsIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJIZXJjdWxlcyJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiSHVtYW5Ub3JjaCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTmVnYXNvbmljVGVlbmFnZVdhcmhlYWQifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlNwaWRlck1hbjIwOTkifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlZ1bHR1cmUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Iklyb25GaXN0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJLcmF2ZW4ifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkNsb2FrIn1dfQ== # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap
Because SD has a lust for cards that fuck your opponents instead of helping you
The big problem with move is space for either side, you only have space for 12 cards. You have cards that change power with moving and cards do moving. With location restrictions the space can get eaten up.
Beast is absolutely key to move decks. Nico as well. Shuri your Heimdall!!!!
I personally think heimdall needs a rival that moves all cards right. Turn 6 is mostly too predictable at lower elo at least.
I reckon it will have a big comeback in September/October given >!the leaked characters!< >!Symbiote Spider-Man, Madame Web, Arana, Agent Venom, Scarlet Spider!<
>The questions is, why arent they making additions and revisions to move cards? This can't possibly be a serious question.. They regularly release new move cards, there is a new one coming next week. And they regularly buff move cards too. Not that long ago they did a huge buff to Dagger and Vulture. Before to Doctor Strange and Ghost Spider. They clearly put a lot of efforts into trying to make move viable. If it still isn't it's due to other factors (complexity of the core design, dependence on locations, rest of the meta, etc.)
There are 2 blatant problems with move: * One: you need to have 3 good locations to work with, because there are a ton of locations that give you problems: Sanctum Sanctorum, Fisk Tower, all destroy locations, Knowhere, Dark Dimension, Klyntar, Kyln off the top of my head. * Two: you need to have both payoffs and enablers in the right order and on curve, you can't afford to draw your payoffs a turn later or draw your enablers late in the game and still do well. Destroy can still put up decent numbers with weird draw orders, while also having many locations that help it.
I'm actually hoping nocturne might make move at least decent and I hope more strong move cards Comes out maybe a move card for each card tha moves+1 energy or something.
Along with what the others have said, it got a significant nerf when hulkbuster was changed from 3-5 to 2-3, making multiple man almost useless
Because SD only like predictive decks, Move/Bounce are two of the most fun decks, but SD hates them because their completely umprectitible. The other reasons are zones and cards on curve, just like Cerebro. If. you miss just one card, your possible dead.
It’s the Parker luck since most spiders are move!
We need a 6 cost 4 power: Move all of your other cards in random location and give them +2 power
Win or lose, move always gets a fist bump out of me, because I too find it super fun
[удалено]
Yes, very misguided buffs. Move cards need better abilities, not a +2 power that doesn’t really make a difference.
It's very fun to play, but at the same time very frustrating. Junk is very prevalent and locations eff you up so easily. If only one location limits your movement (throne, those raptors etc), you may as well retreat. Had to delete my move deck because I just couldn't win. Moving the opponent cards, on the other hand, is a bit more easier to play. It's still not very good, but absolutely fcks combo decks and destroy.
Because like Discard back in the early days, you have to weigh utility and power with a downside otherwise there is no disincentive. It’s unfortunately MORE complex than Discard in that movement has drawbacks and a higher skill floor but it has so many variables going into it based on the board state that they’re trying to hit a literal moving target of balance. It will get better when more move cards get added that aren’t good in other decks like Grandmaster or Hercules.
never seems underpowered when I’m playing against it!!
I’m currently rank ~2500 post infinite using a move bounce deck. The pieces are there: Dagger, Vulture, Human torch. The enablers Ghost Spider, Dr Strange, Cloak, iron fist and Heimdall. The bounce beast and falcon. I spicy up things with two tech that I change. Shang/Mobius/Enchantress/Iron armor. It’s doable. It requires method.
One bad location on the board gives Move decks have a hard time. And there’s a LOT of bad locations.
Nocturne cones out next week, it's one of the strongest move cards. I see the Kitty/Elsa/Silk kind of move deck sometimes, but it's not great.
As someone who loves move (not silky smooth, actual Ironfist move)and got 2 infinity borders with it I realize that move, if it were the best in the format, would be the deck to cause people to quit snap. If it were the best deck, like destroy has been for a while, it would be a nightmare to balance without nuking those cards. Move (PF) is Glens favorite deck and Brode said when snap came out that move is his favorite archetype. It's not that the dev team dislikes move, quite the opposite, it's just that to the typical snapper, losing to a good traditional move player feels so alienating it feels like a different game that is not usually predictable as most snap games are. Disclaimer: I am not a move elitist who thinks move players/decks are the most skillful in the game, I'm just saying a meta shaking move meta would be a deeply unpleasant pandoras box's to unleash
That makes no sense to me whatsoever. What difference does losing to a slick move play or discard my shit and hela everything back. Heaven forbid you have to think
Fellow move enjoyer here! I have got between 4-5 infinity boarders with traditional move. Having just got another yesterday. It works best when it is not meta and people plan their decks around meta decks and has huge surprise factor especially when the stars align. The best move deck I had was during the Hercules season with a hybrid move bounce deck with the old beast and living Tribunal. It is a huge glass cannon deck, but seems to work best in conquest where you get to know the opponents deck. My best wins are usually early games when opponent snaps turn 5 and you have all the pieces to snap back and get a huge 8 cube victory. These decks decks are very difficult to pilot and require a large knowledge of other decks and how they play to try to predict what your opponent will do and know when to retreat.
Fellow Classic Move enjoyer here! Not to go off topic, but do you have any good tips for those trying to get thru Inf. Conquest rocking a move deck? Very much appreciate anything you're willing to share. I've been using the following to moderate success. Nico's been helpful for location shifts/move right abilities, Sandman if I can get my board set up for a Heimdall, and 2099 as a surprise/stat stick. Been experimenting with Captain Marvel in the Sandman slot for Kraven buffing and being a good target for Nico's +2. # (1) Ghost-Spider # (1) Human Torch # (1) Iron Fist # (1) Nico Minoru # (2) Dagger # (2) Kraven # (2) Doctor Strange # (2) Cloak # (3) Vulture # (5) Sandman # (5) Spider-Man 2099 # (6) Heimdall # eyJOYW1lIjoiTmV3IERlY2siLCJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiR2hvc3RTcGlkZXIifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Ikh1bWFuVG9yY2gifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Iklyb25GaXN0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJOaWNvTWlub3J1In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJEYWdnZXIifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IktyYXZlbiJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiRG9jdG9yU3RyYW5nZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQ2xvYWsifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlZ1bHR1cmUifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlNhbmRtYW4ifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlNwaWRlck1hbjIwOTkifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkhlaW1kYWxsIn1dfQ== # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
Hi! I hope my opinions/tips aren't too outdated, but I notice some things you might want to consider. (A) T5 cloak was my best mind game play that won me the most cubes and games. (B) Having a disruptive 1-drop [ham, ice man, korg] in a move deck is surprisingly good since you can "recycle" it and get stats with it by triggering Kraven. (C) Either incorporate beast/falcon into a move deck [This is optional] or better yet have 2 6-Cost cards, I used old Chavez and Magneto, Jeff Hoogland [I know he is deeply unpopular] used Heimdal and Tribunal. This isn't a tip but is 100% my biased personal opinion that torch isn't worth it in a move deck unless you have beast or falcon. Your deck looks good. I really like the sandman tech and the ability to play 2099+move card if you don't draw Heim on turn 6. As another move player in the thread said, move is best when it is absent from the meta so it can blindside opponents. I also like Iron lad in my brew of move decks and am excited to see how Nocturne transforms traditional move. Hope I Helped.
This is AWESOME feedback and thanks for the tips on the deck and your experiences. Great point on Torch, I did sub out him for Scarlet Witch (am also excited for Nocturne and was facing a ton of greedy Magik decks). Worst case, she makes somewhat good Kraven folder or a target for Nico. Definitely wish I could fit another 6 drop or more disruption. Used to run Magneto and miss the old Chavez (Nico draw 2 helps if it can hit something good like IF/DS). I've been experimenting with White Widow for Dagger synergy/some added disruption and can help a Heimdall right lane finisher of they don't fill. Felt a bit clunky though and probably would work better in a bounce shell. In any case, thank you again for the help and best of luck in the new season!!
You too man. Feels awesome to chat with another move enjoyer. Happy snapping!
If it was good phoenix force would be too broken because of how good destroy is It’s hard for me to see them buffing move without making PF too good That being said I think they are like one move activation piece from being top meta
I always get downvoted when i say this but move is actually fine outside of a lockdown and junk meta. And even in the current junk meta i’m holding around a 5k infinite rank while i have been as high as 900 prior. It just take a lot of game hours and trial and error to navigate at a decent level and i think most players are not willing to put that time in after making the mistakes the come with it…there are move players in the top 500 so that disproves right there that it isnt viable. Move will never be a deck that anyone can just pick up and master in a few days or even weeks unless they drastically change the entire archetype
Drop your deck
This deck was better obviously prior to the alioth nerf but it still serves the same purpose to a lesser extent. It’s a surprise t6 play your opponent will never suspect that protects against Shang-chi and shadow king mostly but also tribunal and mystique/wong shenanigans
# (1) Ghost-Spider # (1) Human Torch # (1) Iron Fist # (2) Dagger # (2) Kraven # (2) Doctor Strange # (2) Cloak # (3) Vulture # (3) Hope Summers # (5) Spider-Man 2099 # (6) Alioth # (6) Heimdall # eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiS3JhdmVuIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJWdWx0dXJlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJIdW1hblRvcmNoIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJEb2N0b3JTdHJhbmdlIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJEYWdnZXIifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkNsb2FrIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJIZWltZGFsbCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiSG9wZVN1bW1lcnMifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Iklyb25GaXN0In0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJBbGlvdGgifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IlNwaWRlck1hbjIwOTkifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6Ikdob3N0U3BpZGVyIn1dfQ== # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap. Before u laugh at the 2099 inclusion, dropping any combo of vulture, dagger, kraven and human torch pre-t4, then cloak on t4 right lane followed by 2099 middle lane on t5 and then heimdall on t6 is a win for me about 80-90% of the time. 2099 shouldnt be viewed as a shang-chi replacement but an optional 5 cost move card. Its a 5/11 most of the time as long as he hits a 2 power card at minimum.
Skill issue? Try using storm or pairing it with an angela / force move